What Happens When You’re Naive Enough to Try with KIND Founder Daniel Lubetzky

Naiveté is one of the most powerful assets an entrepreneur can have. In fact, I think some of the most meaningful things in the world only exist because someone was naive enough to try. Daniel Lubetzky would know. In a crowded category and cutthroat industry, Daniel dared to build a company called KIND. He started with a simple question: how can we help people snack healthily without compromising their values? KIND Bars are now a household name and Daniel achieved his dream of building the culture behind the brand. A culture rooted in trust, long-term thinking, and social good. Essentially, a place where people loved to work and a company that thrived as a result. In this conversation, Daniel and I explore why entrepreneurship is less about ego and more about problem-solving, why brands are promises that must be kept, and how thinking in the short-term erodes trust in both business and society. Daniel’s story doesn’t stop at the wildly successful business he founded. The son of a Holocaust survivor, he grew up with a deep sense of responsibility to prevent hatred and division from taking root again. That calling first led him to create PeaceWorks, bringing people together through commerce, and now fuels his work with the Builders Movement. Builders is an effort to channel curiosity, compassion, and courage to reduce polarization and rebuild trust… together. Some important context, because this episode touches on peace building and polarization, is that it was recorded back in December 2025 and before recent developments in the Middle East. But this episode is about how kindness can be a competitive advantage, how optimism can be strategic, and how each of us has a role to play in building a future that’s more connected than divided. This… is A Bit of Optimism. --------------------------- If you want to learn more about the Daniel’s work with The Builders Movement, head to: https://buildersmovement.org Check out the products and work being done at KIND: https://www.kindsnacks.com ---------------------------

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  Where did like the drive for peace come from? And, and what are you doing to make that naive vision real?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  It started when I was-

• 0:12Simon Sinek?

  And I mean that as a compliment, right?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 0:15Simon Sinek?

  But you know, no, no, I mean that-

• 0:16Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 0:17Simon Sinek?

  Which is, which is the ones who succeed are the ones who naive, are naive enough to believe that it's possible.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  I know, I was teasing you.

• 0:23Simon Sinek?

  We often think of being naive as a weakness, something we want to avoid. But what if naivete was actually a superpower? Naivete describes the willingness to believe that things can be better, even when the world around us suggests otherwise. I firmly believe that naivete is essential for anyone who wants to build something meaningful in the world. My guest today is Daniel Lubetzky, and he proves this. Many people know him as the founder of Kind, the maker of Kind bars. But what really drives Daniel isn't just building a successful company, it's his belief that we can leave the world better than we found it. And he's just naive enough to believe it will happen, which I love.

• 1:03Simon Sinek?

  Daniel has since stepped away from Kind and is now working on his next naive project, the Builders Movement, an effort to channel curiosity and compassion into solutions that can reduce polarization in our media, our societies, and indeed in the world. The conversation you're about to hear was actually recorded in December, before the recent developments in the Middle East. And because this episode touches on peacebuilding and polarization, I wanted to share that context before you listen. I also reached back out to Daniel and asked what's been on his mind since we recorded, and he shared this message. In this conversation, he said, "You'll hear about my life's mission to pursue peace in the Middle East

• 1:44Simon Sinek?

  and build bridges across the world, including through business cooperation and civic activism. I hope what you draw from this conversation," he continues, "are tools to navigate differences between people and even differences within us, to learn to wrestle with complex issues that have no easy answers." This is a bit of optimism.

• 2:11Simon Sinek?

  I just met you for the first time five minutes ago. And I have to say, from the minute you walk in, you exude warmth. You know, when you meet the founder of a company, in my world, the ideal brand is a reflection of the founder.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Do you know any world where it's not that case? That the person's personality does not create the culture.

• 2:32Simon Sinek?

  It always starts that way. But success is the biggest obstacle. And then whether it's through outside influence, or poor management, or any number of factors, or just taking your eye off the ball, or being distracted by different goals and objectives, you know, very often, it starts to dilute. And so when you meet somebody who has literally started a company called Kind, right, and you and I've never met, all I know is you started a company called Kind. And you walk in, and you're like, and you're just like, yep. You know, it's a very nice experience when it happens. And you just happen to exude warmth, which is lovely.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  We should just acknowledge, if you don't mind me sharing, that I came into a very warm place. And you have a lot of fun gadgets and things that made me connect very quickly with your warmth. And there's a candle that you walk in, it smells really good. And there's little tiny Meyer lemons. And there's a lot of fun things around here.

• 3:28Simon Sinek?

  I can tell you from experience that lots of people come in here, and this setting is always the same. But their response is, it's all over the place. So I'm gonna receive your gratitude and push it back on you that it's really, it's really you. The bar category is a frickin' mess. There are, it's a, there are so many players. I don't know how anybody differentiates themselves. I have friends who are trying to get into it, and it's so hard. Was it luck of timing? Or is it something that you did that you've become? Kind bars are one of the gold standards of the category.

• 4:11Simon Sinek?

  You know, you were one of the better known brands in the whole category. And people, people refer to other grain bars as kind bars, even when they're not.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  That's a dangerous situation, but I get it. But when we were designing what became Kind, we never thought of ourselves as a bar. We thought of ourselves as solving for a problem to help people snack healthfully. And even today, um, we try to think of Kind as Kind, not as a Kind bar. But the deeper answer to your question is, I didn't know how hard that space was. And I was lucky that I didn't think about it. And the more that I look back at life, a lot of the things that I've accomplished,

• 5:05Speaker 01

  I'm lucky that I wasn't phased because I didn't know what the hell I was getting into. Rabbi Brand Lurie once told me, Daniel, you know what I love about you is that you're so naive. And I got furious that he called me naive. And I'm like, why are you calling me naive? I'm just determined and, and I'm not naive. He said, I, I mean it as a compliment that you don't know what you don't know. And that's why you try these things out. Took me decades to take that compliment. But it's very true that a lot of entrepreneurs would not pursue the paths that they pursue if they would know how hard it is.

• 5:43Simon Sinek?

  I think naivete is a very undervalued asset.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:49Simon Sinek?

  And I, I fit that category also. I, I firmly believe that one of my greatest values is that I am naive. I was an idiot with an idea with no following. You know, no commercial success of any particular note. You know, no book, no nothing, but had this wild belief that I could profoundly change the, the way that business worked. And that's all I had was the naive belief that I could. And if I'd stopped to think about it for a minute, I wouldn't have done half the things I did.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  But I. I struggle with, you know, every word in addition to the word itself has a connotation, right? Like, that's why, for example, I say that we don't have employees, or what I used to run, kind I sold it recently, but I say that I, we didn't have employees and we don't have employees in any other organizations. I don't mean that we don't literally hire people that work with us. The word employee has the connotation of a master-servant relationship. It's a hierarchy. A hierarchy, that's a negative hierarchy. And for me, I want to have team members where all of us are equal and are working together, not just because it sounds good, but because it helps empower people to challenge me. Language has power. And to, and to debate with you and to create the structure where Words matter.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Everybody has a, can have an opinion. And so naive for me, I was having a conversation with Martin Barsavski, who's a very dear friend of mine, uh, who started like 12 companies. He's one of the very few people that I know that have created many multi-billion dollar companies from scratch in different industries. Very rare to do. And by the way, the fact that almost nobody has done it reminds me how much luck plays into it. We all think we're so special. Yeah. Luck plays so much into our success. Yeah. But he was saying, when we were talking, he's in his sixties and he's starting his next company. And I won't say what it is, but of respect to him, because it's still in stealth

• 7:42Speaker 01

  mode. But why does he do it? Because he's trying to solve a puzzle. And so part of what entrepreneurs do is identify a problem, identify a solution, and then try to will it into existence. And I don't think it's got that much to do with the dimension of naivete. It's true that there's a lot that we don't know. And had we known it, maybe we wouldn't pursue it. But I think it's a greater truth that we just have the will to try to turn an idea into a reality. And it's our personality that likes to solve puzzles, that doesn't get dissuaded by hearing no, maybe almost like you're like turned on.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  But like, oh, really? Now I'm going to really prove it. So I I think it's a little more complex than just it's true that not knowing how hard it would be helps you push through, but I think there's more to it than that.

• 8:37Simon Sinek?

  And I think you you're touching upon it, which is that an entrepreneur is a problem solver. Right? And I think people sometimes confuse it that an entrepreneur is a small business owner or a business owner. You know, a small business owner is a small business owner, and entrepreneur solves problems to your point. And you can find entrepreneurs in very, very large companies where they're mid ranking people. But they're the ones who are pushing against the status quo, trying to solve problems to your point. Looking at the looking at things slightly differently instead of just following the prescription. What I think is really interesting is like some universities, they teach entrepreneurship. And I've always found that curious, which is, is entrepreneurship a skill that you can teach? Or is it a is it a mental defect?

• 9:20Simon Sinek?

  That you choose to do something with the overwhelming chance of failure, but you think that's kind of fun.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  It's a beautiful question that I've asked myself for so many years.

• 9:29Simon Sinek?

  For me, it's it's it's my it's it's very much ingrained in my personality and how I approach the world, which is. And I still think naivete is a compliment. You know, if somebody says you're naive, I'm like, thank you. You know, I I don't know, and I kind of like that because that means I get to start clean, you know?

• 9:44Speaker 01

  But going to your question about what makes an entrepreneur, can you teach entrepreneurship? I ask this question all the time because I try to search for myself. Did it come because I learned it from my father, from osmosis, from seeing him operate? Because he really was a consummate entrepreneur, and it sounds like you're that too. I always ask where the genesis of that came from. I don't know if it's nurture or nature.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I tend to think if I have to come up with a theory that along our the way when we're having formative influences, somebody is encouraged to think creatively and that there's a reward for it. Having asked this question thousands of times of others, there seems to be something that happens in people's lives in their early lives where them thinking outside the box.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Is rewarded and they're like, let me do more of it and let me do more of it. And it might be very little steps. And so how can we teach young kids to take risks, to think outside the box? And to be rewarded for taking those risks. By the way, in the United States, if you look at it, the big picture is a culture. One of the reasons why the United States has far more entrepreneurs than the rest of the world is that we have a culture where it's okay to fall.

• 11:01Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Dust it off and stand up. In some cultures, in in most cultures, if you fail, it is shameful and and shame on you and you're gonna bring shame not just to you, but to your family. And so people are like, okay, I'm not gonna try. And it's so liberating to be okay with trying because guess what? If you don't try, if you're if you're not falling.

• 11:22Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  It means you're not trying.

• 11:23Simon Sinek?

  It's one of my favorite things about America, which is people put their failed businesses on their resume. Like they literally have on their resume, oh, I started a business here. And they're interviewing for a job, they're like, oh, yeah.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  I don't do that because it'd be too long.

• 11:34Simon Sinek?

  I stay. But then they'd be like, oh, yeah, I started a business. We had it for about two and a half years and it didn't work out. People like, okay, cool, cool. Like, it's so not.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  And and when I look for people, I love people that show that because it also shows. First of all, failures teach you more than successes do because when you succeed, you're not a hundred percent certain what, but when you fail, you have to, if you are self reflective, you're gonna absorb the lessons. And so you stretch yourself more and it shows that you're comfortable with that opportunity.

• 12:04Simon Sinek?

  I I love to tell this story. It's you you and you talk about like it's it's it's in you from your upbringing, from your childhood. That's where it comes from, the rewards of taking risks and things like that. So one of my favorite things about America, and this is historical, and it helps you understand how this country is so good at entrepreneurship and has so many entrepreneurs, which is we celebrate our independence on July 4th, seventeen seventy six. Incorrect. That is when we signed the Declaration of Independence. The Revolutionary War continued for another seven years. We didn't win our independence until September 3rd, seventeen eighty three.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  But we said we got it, let's go.

• 12:38Simon Sinek?

  And then George Washington didn't become president and the Constitution wasn't ratified for another seven years, like seventeen eighty nine or seventeen ninety one. I can't remember the dates. But the point is, is like, there's a full on like. You know, nearly decade, like fifteen years between when we signed and celebrate our independence until we actually had it, had a constitution, had a president.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I had never heard that.

• 13:00Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, so our Independence Day, when we were recognized as an independent nation, is actually September 3rd, 1783. But we celebrate the day we thought about it, not the day we had it.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  And that we welded into existence.

• 13:12Simon Sinek?

  And that tells you everything about America.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  And it's entrepreneurial spirit.

• 13:15Simon Sinek?

  It's that entrepreneurial, it's that entrepreneurial spirit with the, with the dream is, is, is ground zero, not, not the accomplishment.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 13:23Simon Sinek?

  I love that too. One of the reasons I think other nations don't have the, the same quantity of entrepreneurs is, is all these things, which is we're dreamers, we love people who try, even if it doesn't work out, like we think that's great. So then the question it raises is like, is America as a nation, and I mean this for the past 250 years, is America naive? Does it have, does it, does, does the nation embody the characteristics of the entrepreneur? The risk-taking, the dreaming, the grit, but is there a naivete to the nation?

• 13:56Speaker 01

  And can it lose it?

• 13:58Simon Sinek?

  And can it lose it? And, and I would argue it does have the naivete, like the, the naivete that this one nation can help bring sort of, you know, democracy and capitalism to around the world. And we stood up to the Soviet Union's view of how the world should work and say, no, no, no, we think there's a better way and we think everybody should have this because it's pretty awesome. Now, whether it's misguided or true or not, you know, and how they went about it, these are all different questions.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  I grew up in Mexico, so I lived in Mexico from sixty-eight to seventy, to eighty-four, sixteen years. And the narrative that a lot of Latin American people had around those times was of the United States as an oppressive regime that was taking advantage of, when I came to the United States, I discovered a country that I love so much. And, you know, we, we are at risk of losing some of what makes us very special. We need to not take it for granted, but it's still.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Rule of law, better than in most places. Democracy, better than in most places. Kindness, civility, respect, free markets, freedom of expression. All of them under threat, but better than in most places. And it's a gift that I don't take for granted. And I do think to your point about naivete. When I arrived in the United States and most of my experience in the United States has been people that do the right thing even when people are not watching for the right reasons. Like which country in the history of humanity went and reconstructed all of Europe after World War II? Liberated Europe, my father was liberated by American soldiers.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  So you had countless people who sacrificed their life to liberate another continent. And then after they sacrificed so much, they invested in the Marshall Plan, in rebuilding Europe. And by the way, it paid off amazing for the United States, right? It helped take us to a different level. But I do believe that it was done for the right reasons to prevent that cycle.

• 16:01Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, it was it was it was done so to prevent them from rebuilding, becoming our enemies again.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:05Simon Sinek?

  We spent our money to make them our friends. Yeah. So you you you're no longer, you're sold kind.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  I sold last December.

• 16:11Simon Sinek?

  So I. Are you worried that, who bought it?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Mars.

• 16:18Simon Sinek?

  This has nothing to do with Mars. This is a philosophical question, but you controlled kind to be in your image, to maintain your values. Are you worried that it will break? Because I have so many founder friends who've sold their businesses, whether they went public or they sold their companies or private equity took it over. And within a few years, the ingredients were replaced with cheaper, shittier ingredients. The culture was eviscerated and some of them, the company ceased to exist. I know one right now, the company was just shut down.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:59Simon Sinek?

  Because they get eviscerated and destroyed by these.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 17:04Simon Sinek?

  There's nothing you can do about it.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  There's some things I do about it still today to try to help them, but. But for example, you saw I came home and I came to your place and I brought you Kind Bars. I don't own a stake in the company, but I love Kind so much that I still give them out. And I negotiated my contract that I would continue being having a allotment. That was important to me.

• 17:26Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  I care a lot about Kind. I'm slightly less worried about the product integrity because I think Mars is a sophisticated company that understands that if they do that, they'll destroy the product. But it's very difficult with the best.

• 17:40Simon Sinek?

  And this has nothing to do with Mars.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, any company. It's actually the brother more interesting question is the same thing that brings entrepreneurs to bring something into existence that didn't exist where, to your point, how did you dare have the chutzpah to try to create a Kind Bar in a space where there are already so many other bars? By the way, most of the other bars are no longer in existence. The ones that were leading the way when I launched Kind, you might remember the names, but they're.

• 18:05Simon Sinek?

  For example?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Balance Bar, Power Bar.

• 18:07Simon Sinek?

  They don't exist anymore?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  They're.

• 18:09Simon Sinek?

  Miniscule.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  I haven't seen them in years.

• 18:11Simon Sinek?

  I mean, I remember Power Bar. They were kind of one of the OGs.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, I haven't seen one in a long time. Every entrepreneur has that compunction to do things and will something into existence. And then they also, I don't know any entrepreneur that does not think they can defy the laws of gravity. So when we do that partnership, we think we're going to be the one that's going to suspend all of those laws and that we are going to be able to preserve everything. And the reality is that an entrepreneurial culture and a gigantic conglomerate, it's not easy. It's not easy. I think that it's not a question about the partners, the part, the people that I work there are very, very high integrity. It is very difficult to preserve that entrepreneurial spirit. I like to invest in founder-led companies because I noticed that when the founder's

• 18:58Speaker 01

  no longer around, slowly, but truly, you were asking at the very beginning about the founders. Personality, values and culture imbuing

• 19:06Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  The culture of the company. It's fascinating to me to notice. I've met a lot of founders and they look at their company's cultures and it's incredibly interesting how much that person's personality is in the culture of the company.

• 19:20Simon Sinek?

  But this is part of the problem with business in the modern day, right? Which is these founders build these beautiful brands where there's very important rules of integrity and ingredients and all of these things. And these larger companies that buy these brands, they don't really care about the ingredients. They're buying the brand. I mean, we could list off the names, Aveda, Burt's Bees. I mean, Aveda was this little Minneapolis company that built this wonderful brand. It was bought by a big company and they've changed all the ingredients. And everybody thinks because it's Aveda, they bought the brand. They didn't buy the ingredients.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  But you even ask yourself,

• 19:53Simon Sinek?

  You know, and so we still buy these products thinking that they're magical because they were magical and they're not magical anymore.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  And you ask yourself, why would a big company pay so much money if they're not going to preserve it? It's like this, because I noticed that upfront from other observations. We're talking about power bar and balance bar. So balance bar have a value proposition that they were about a balance between protein, carbohydrates and fiber. So I think something like that. It had like a a formula, it had the three circles, whatever. And then it got acquired, I did write Kraft or Mondelez. And they gave it to a junior manager. And the junior manager needs to put their stamp. And they find out that around that time, organic is big. So they create something called Balance Organic.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Now, Balance, the original bar is a very functional bar. It looks like astronaut food and it's very functional. And all of a sudden, Balance Organic, nobody believes it. What is a brand? A brand is a promise. And a great brand is a promise well kept. And all of a sudden, you're doing the exact opposite because you have Balance Organic as opposed to the Balance Original and they have nothing in common. And then they launch, they see Kind. Coming up with ingredients, you can see a process, they come up one called, I think it was called Balance Bar. And B A R E. And then they come up with the other one because there's the keto diet and then there's the functional diet and this is. And they have like eight different versions of Balance Bars.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  And the consumer stops understanding what the brand stands for. That business went from like two hundred and fifty million to fifty million. To my bet is that it's zero now or close to zero. I haven't seen a Balance Bar in a long time. And they trade, every junior manager does the same sense. Every junior manager. They don't teach you, this is the essence that you need to respect. They teach you, hey.

• 21:48Simon Sinek?

  Line extension.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Line extension and make a difference and be relevant so you can get promoted. And these guys. Get promoted by short term results. And so whatever mess they're creating in the long term by destroying the brand. Nobody notices it because by the time it happens, it's too late.

• 22:03Simon Sinek?

  But we kind of got to this point in American business that I find a bit depressing, which is that. That companies aren't built to last. They're built to be sold. Right? And and.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Well, not all, not all companies.

• 22:16Simon Sinek?

  I mean, your company, how many, how many years did Kind? Because I would say that it was longer than most before they want to have their.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I wasn't, I wasn't being defensive about mine, but I'll answer mine, but then we should expand it. The interesting about my company is it. I started in nineteen ninety three, what was then called Peaceworks. And my investors came into Peaceworks, but they didn't like the Peaceworks aspect. So they spun it off, but that same, my employee identification numbers was thirteen, three, seven, six, six, oh, two, nine. Because I used to write all the checks, I used to file all the tax forms, I used to do all the accounting. So I still remember my employee identification number from nineteen ninety three. And I, I was doing the accounting, the bookkeeping, the collections, the deliveries, everything, every job I was doing at the beginning. And there were two of us, then four of us, then two of us, then four of us, then two of us and four of us, then eight, and then before, you know, hundreds.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  When I launched Kind, I did not, I personally, I promise you, I did not think. If only I could build something to sell it. It never crossed my mind. And that's why Kind succeeded. Because Kind was just.

• 23:19Simon Sinek?

  Agreed.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Trying to fulfill that vision of something amazing. But just to your question, there are gigantic companies. Like the Amazons of the world, they do lose their way for other reasons.

• 23:30Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  But they're not trying to sell. I think the stock market has a bit of that problem when you're trying to. I think one of the bigger questions is why do you always need to wanna grow, grow, grow? Because when you are growing, growing, growing and you need to demonstrate that measurable growth, I don't have a better solution, but eventually you're going to value optimization and things that start destroying the brand in the long term.

• 23:56Simon Sinek?

  This is the real root of the question, right? And I think you're articulating it better than I did, which is it's not so much about the sale. It's about you're building it to sell or you're building it to go public.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Or you're building it to extract money in the short term.

• 24:12Simon Sinek?

  You know, and all the great businesses were built for the joy of building it, for the thrill of the build. And if you decide to sell it or, you know, go public way, way down the road, that's a different conversation. But the number of businesses that literally, whether it's their own desire or the pressures they have from their investors, that there has to be this liquidity event. And that's the other thing that annoys me about the IPO, which is the whole reason of an IPO was it was one of the mechanisms available to an entrepreneur to raise money should they need it. You can take a loan from the bank. You can raise money from friends and family, or you can sell some of the equity of your company to the public market so that you can raise money to reinvest. But that's not what it is. Now, an IPO is a way to cash in, pay yourself and pay your investors,

• 24:57Simon Sinek?

  and it has nothing to do with a cash infusion to reinvest back in the business. It has nothing to do with it. And that is one of the downfalls, I think, of the modern American business, which is all of the companies, even the good ones are built, so many of them, too many of them are built simply for the short term.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  And to make matters worse, a lot of the value that's being, quote unquote, value that's being created is just financial engineering, right? There's a lot of companies buying over other companies, squeezing everything they can, then leaving them near dead and then going on to the next one. Like a lot of private equity companies, what they do is, this is like the model that's been used over the last 10, 20 years, is they identify. Pool maintenance companies that are such a disrupted, the more fragmented, the more they see the opportunity. So they start buying all of the pool companies or the roof. There was an article in the New York Times about the roofing companies and they identify, oh, there's tens of thousands of small business entrepreneurs. They're not finding synergies. Let's start acquiring all of them, roll them up and then

• 25:58Speaker 01

  make them more synergistic, which means fire all the people, just hire a smaller group of people, use centralized branding, but they're not thinking about creating value.

• 26:08Simon Sinek?

  No.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  By the way, if you acquired all of them and you introduced best practices and elevated the game, fine, but they don't want, they just want to turn it around. And so they, they buy them at three X profits, they sell them at six X profits. Then the next guy buys them at six X profits, sells them at nine X profits, and then they go public at 12 X profits. But along the way, you're killing entire companies because you squeeze so much value out of them and then you no longer trust them because they're just worrying about the money.

• 26:39Simon Sinek?

  So you built, you said you wanted to make a food product that was a healthy snack, right? There was a reason to build a company, right? And your business was the delivering of a healthy snack. That was the business. The companies that we're talking about, the private equity companies, their business is making money.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:58Simon Sinek?

  Like their only product is to make money, not to make anything that has value to anyone in the world. And if I hear another finance person tell me that the value they provide is they provide employment to an economy and help drive an economy, then why do you promote layoffs so fervently? They're completely full of shit.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  That is one of the imperfections of capitalism because free markets are very efficient and you the, the interesting thing for me, because I think

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Communism, socialism, you see their imperfections and they're greater than capitalism.

• 27:32Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  But capitalism, even conscious capitalism, has a lot of problems. That the free market wins and the free market will always, efficiency will always win.

• 27:41Simon Sinek?

  I think this version of capitalism, this is not the, the capitalism that exists today is not the capitalism that made America great. This is not Adam Smith capitalism, right? Where the customer is the center of the value. And you know, what Adam Smith said, which is the candle maker, uh, the, the bread maker makes the best bread to compete with the other bread makers. And the butcher makes the best meat to compete with the other butchers and the cheesemaker makes, and you get the best sandwich.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:06Simon Sinek?

  Right? And that's not what has happened because of Milton Friedman and Jack Welch, which is they've completely changed the capitalism that we have and popularized short-termism, the metrics of, of incentivizing.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Milton Friedman popularized short-termism?

• 28:22Simon Sinek?

  Milton Friedman was an economist.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  I know Milton Friedman, I didn't know about his short-termism.

• 28:26Simon Sinek?

  So Milton Friedman, so it's this common, it's this combination of theories where Milton Friedman, this is what he wrote. The purpose of business, purpose, the purpose of business is to maximize profits within the bounds of the rules. Which means make as much money as you can without breaking the law.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  And your point is.

• 28:44Simon Sinek?

  And that's a very low bar.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  You're destroying value because.

• 28:47Simon Sinek?

  Correct.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  The purpose of business should be to create value in the long term. That means respect the brand, respect the consumer, respect the stakeholder. That's how Kind became an extraordinary, because by the way, Kind created more value on a multiples basis than any company I know of. Like from the, my early investors, like we almost didn't need capital. We grew, grew, grew, grew because we're thinking with the right way. We created like 3,000 X returns for our investors.

• 29:15Simon Sinek?

  But just think about that, right? Like the current, the business model, and you see it all the time. Make as much money as you can within the bounds of the rules. So you see these companies do horribly unethical things because ethics is a higher standard than the law.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  But I think your point.

• 29:26Simon Sinek?

  And they get dragged in front of Congress and they all say the same thing. We broke no laws.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  But to take it away from just the moral compass, to take it into the business compass, your point is right. Because by playing that game, in the long term, you're destroying value.

• 29:41Simon Sinek?

  Yes.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  By playing that game, people don't trust your brand, they don't trust your business, and they don't trust the system.

• 29:47Simon Sinek?

  And I think this is where we have to take a hard look at capitalism. And I'm not talking about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But you see the rise of populism on the left and the right.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:56Simon Sinek?

  Whether it's Bernie Sanders, or Mandani, or Trump. It doesn't matter if you're on the left or right of the political spectrum. You see the rise of populism that is mistrustful of the institutionalized powers that be. Right? And the status quo. And rightfully so, because we have traded what Goldman Sachs used to call long-term greed, which was totally fine, with short-term greed. It's not so Pollyanna and idealist that there's no such thing as greed. The reason communism fails is because humans are greedy. Right? But to believe in long-term greed, which is how can we build a company that will outlast us for the good of the long term? You actually make really good decisions.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:37Simon Sinek?

  And we, for some reason, seem to be okay with the short-term extraction at the expense of the customer, the employee, the environment, the, you know, our health. There's a very large food company, who shall remain nameless. I went to this conference, and they had the chief environmental officer of this company give a presentation on how much water they were saving and how much electricity they were saving. And it was a beautiful presentation about what they're doing. And because I'm a cynical bastard, I went up to the chief environmental officer at the end of the talk, and I went up to them, and I said, hey, love that you're saving water, love that you're saving electricity, uh, love that you care about the environment. Question for you.

• 31:22Simon Sinek?

  If I'm really cynical, I could say, you're only doing it because it saves money, you know, less water electricity saves money. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you're doing it for good reasons. But here's my question for you. I love that you care so much about the environment, but how come you put chemicals that kill people in your food? You have a chief environmental officer at your food company. How come you don't have a chief health officer? Just curious. And then the logic of what these companies say unravels.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I think I wanna strengthen what you say and then ask you a question. When we took the fateful decision to bring a strategic partner, which is speak for saying, sell a piece of kind, which is the beginning of the process where we ended up where we ended up. But when we were evaluating it, one of the companies that presented to us literally said to us, we love that our products don't kill you. They don't make you sick. That was their standard because they were not helpful products, but their standard was like, at least our products don't kill you.

• 32:22Simon Sinek?

  At least our products don't kill you.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I swear to you, we're at a meeting.

• 32:25Simon Sinek?

  Was their definition of success.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  When we debriefed at a meeting, it was one of the many moments when I told my team, what are we doing? But anyway, that's a that's a different conversation. But I have solutions about how to handle the problems of populism in the civic space. I've thought about it in the private sector and I have not come up with them. Do you have solutions? Like the point that you point out to about short-termism and short-term value extraction, other than teaching people to be smarter and to build for the longer term? Do you have any structural or any other?

• 33:01Simon Sinek?

  I think it's a generational answer, right? Like it was the eighties and nineties where they were experimenting with short-termism, you know, incentivizing executives with equity, not performance of the company. Layoffs on an annualized basis to balance the books. I mean, we these this is all eighties and nineties. Prior to that, there was no such thing as mass layoffs in the United States, right? Unless it was for existential reasons, like we're going out of business, you know? It was popularized in the eighties and nineties and then that style of management was taught and continues to be taught in business schools. And that's what got you promoted. And so that's why it became the standard, because a generation was taught to run a business that way. I think now with the rise of populism and the cynicism that young people have,

• 33:44Simon Sinek?

  that there is a generational shift where I think young people are okay making slightly less money to do the right thing. And I think that they like companies who are willing to make less money this quarter because we're going to make the right decision for, you know, the next five years.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  May I challenge you for that?

• 34:01Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, please.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  I we agree 100% on the fact that if you build a brand for the long term and do the right thing for the long term, that's how you create enduring value. And when you're doing for short term, you're actually destroying value. We agree on that. On the thing about the layoffs. I ask myself this question all the time because I notice it happening. I get proposals for me to invest in these rollups. And I struggle because to your point, there's no value being created or added. And my answer is, well, why don't we do, to the extent that we consolidate, let's make it in a positive way. We'll create a brand that people can trust and help empower the small business entrepreneurs for them to become stronger and be part of the family and create the culture to that. I struggle with that.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  But broadly speaking, unlike you, I don't oppose layoffs because I notice what happens when industries are not efficient and that doesn't happen, then your lunch will be eaten by others. In other words, what's happening in Europe, Europe resists the layoffs and it's slowly but surely gonna die. Because that's what I struggle with a competitive market system, that at some point, somebody else is gonna be, and the Chinese most likely will be more ruthlessly efficient, and how are you gonna compete?

• 35:19Simon Sinek?

  My friend Bob Chapman would say that an overreliance on layoffs is proof of a poor business model.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 35:25Simon Sinek?

  Right? And so it's not that I'm against layoffs, because sometimes companies are stupid and over hire. I mean, we saw it during COVID, the number of businesses that because, you know, and they thought this would survive and last forever. And so they overhired, the numbers corrected, and there's no way you can sustain the business, right?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Your point is you shouldn't have layoffs as your business model.

• 35:47Simon Sinek?

  You shouldn't have layoffs as your business model. And to embrace layoffs on an annualized basis. You know, and my standard line is, you know, we missed our arbitrary projections. So in order to make the numbers work, you get to lose your job. Our arbitrary projections, we're profitable, not as profitable as we promised.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Well, you're gonna have a lot of not fun in the coming years.

• 36:07Simon Sinek?

  And the people ignore the ripples. Great, you got a little, one of the companies, a big tech company, made the announcement that we're gonna lay off 10,000 people, we're gonna do 1,000 people every month. How much productivity do you think there was that year? The stupidity of even that strategy. And we incentivize HR leaders. An HR leader is supposed to be the voice of the people at the desk of the C-level executives. The voice and the champion of the people. Nope, we incentivize too many HR leaders. They get their bonus for doing the layoffs efficiently. And we've eviscerated even the concept of what the value of human resources is.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  And the culture and the, yeah, no.

• 36:43Simon Sinek?

  Getting very heated.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  I agree with what you said in the business world because it reminds me of why, like, something that I observed um in the market world that bothered me and that I think we did differently, that that is connected to your same philosophy is in most of corporate America, there is no trust in the system and they fire you, which means you're given two weeks' notice, but you're shown a box, that you put in the stuff in your box and you're shown the door because you're not trusted to be there. And I observed there was a very, very big problem in that model at Kind because

• 37:26Speaker 01

  everybody that took the struggle to bring into our team and taught them our culture and they taught us and we worked and built together.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Maybe in my entire existence, there were three examples out of thousands of people that I hired. There were, it actually merited showing them the door because

• 37:47Simon Sinek?

  Time to graduate.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  they engaged in illicit behavior or they were, they really crossed the line that really engaged in stuff that was completely inappropriate. But it's three people out of thousands.

• 37:59Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, of course.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  In the vast majority of situations, the reality is that most times when things don't work out is because you failed to communicate with your team member and that because you failed to create a bond of trust so that people can communicate with one another. I don't know if you found this to be true, but almost always if you share feedback early on, the person can course correct and fix it. So the essence for a higher order work environment is to create trust. Because if you create trust, you can create open communications. If you create open communications, you have much less likelihood that things don't work out. That means, for example, that instead of firing people showing the door, we had a system at Kind where if you were planning to leave,

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Or if we were planning to let you go, first you were required to have a conversation and let let the other person know with transparently, think what that takes, it takes enormous amount of trust. If I'm planning to leave, I need to trust you that you're not gonna do something bad with that information. I'm telling you, I'm leaving in one year because I wanna go study for graduate school, or I'm gonna get married and move somewhere else, or I wanna retire. You don't want the company as a consequence to cut you off early. Sure. Most big companies, when we try to introduce this methodology to them, they do the wrong thing with that information. They're like, oh, they're leaving, they're no longer valuable to me, and they're not gonna be loyal to me, and they're gonna sell my secrets. Let's fire them within two weeks. So then, the next person won't share that with them. Sure.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  So instead, you create a relationship trust, and you do it both ways. It was very weird. At Kind, every single team member was an owner. Everybody that was there more than six months was given stock options. If you were the janitor or the person to the company, everybody was an owner. And with that ownership came the responsibility that if you chose that you were gonna leave, not only were you needing to give us the notice, you needed to replace yourself. You needed to find, we trust you enough that if you wanna leave, you need to find your replacement. It's very hard to achieve that. But when you trust the person, because you hired them in the first place, they are doing the right job. And it elevates the culture so that everybody's in there for one another.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  And most times it worked. Almost always it worked. Not always, but almost always, the person had that responsibility to pass the baton, to train their replacement. And think about how much more synergy you get. If you achieve that higher order of functioning, instead of you're fired and everybody doesn't trust each other, you're hiring your replacement, you're overlapping. And then, if you decide that you're gonna leave, you can ask for a letter of reference, you can ask for a very warm testimonial and endorsement. And so that was, that was what we aspired for. My direct reports, guess what was their notice they needed to give me? What? Two years. Two years notice, like John Leahy, the president of my company, like for the senior people that reported to me,

• 40:50Speaker 01

  it was two years. And in exchange, they had undying loyalty from me.

• 40:54Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Like, and if I ever was unhappy, that meant also I can't fire people. I have to talk to them, talk through them, work it out, try to work it out and do everything possible to make it work. And if not, create a transparent process so that they can start looking for an opportunity while they're still finding their replacement.

• 41:11Simon Sinek?

  Let me change tacks here. You're fascinated by peace. I mean, the original brand name of the company was Peaceworks. And you are committed to Arab Israeli peace as well in the Middle East.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  We're working really heavily on it right now.

• 41:25Simon Sinek?

  Where, you know, where did that come from? Where did like, where did the desire to, the drive for peace come from? And, and what are you doing to make that naive vision real?

• 41:41Speaker 01

  It started uh

• 41:43Simon Sinek?

  And I mean that as a compliment, right?

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 41:46Simon Sinek?

  But you know, no, no, I mean

• 41:47Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 41:48Simon Sinek?

  Which is, which is the ones who succeed are the ones who are naive enough to believe that it's possible.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  I know, I was teasing you. I appreciate it very much.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  When I was nine years old, my father started talking to me about what he went through in the Holocaust. He was a concentration camp survivor and he shared horrible things that I think I impacted me more than I realized. Only in the last few years I've processed how much those conversations like.

• 42:15Simon Sinek?

  Nine is young.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. My mom said, Roman, why are you telling him this stuff? He's nine years old. And he said, you know, he needs to hear this. I was nine years old when I needed to live through it. He just needs to hear through it. And so he was nine years old when the war started and 12 when he was sent to a concentration camp, 15 and a half when he was liberated by American soldiers. And what's interesting about him is that in spite of the horrors of what he went through, he weighed 70 pounds and was six feet tall when he was liberated.

• 42:48Simon Sinek?

  Wow.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  And like, there's a YouTube interview of him, Roman Lubetzky, you can look it up on, on YouTube and, and it's, it's very, very interesting. But what's fascinating about him is that in spite of all of what he went through, he just saw the kindness in others. And

• 43:07Speaker 01

  He lived his life with kindness and that we named the company Kind after him. He passed away the year that we launched Kind, which was a very interesting, difficult year for us, for me. Ever since I was a kid, having experienced that in Mexico, I promised myself that I would do what I can to prevent what happened to my dad from happening to other human beings. And I thought that my singular mission back then was to make peace in the Middle East. I thought that's how I was gonna contribute, that the way I was gonna build bridges was by bringing Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and Turks together.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  And when I was in college, I stumbled upon the field of the business of peacemaking, of how you can use commerce to bring people to trade with one another. And when they trade with one another, it shatters stereotypes because they're interacting as fellow human beings. They're breaking bread together and then they're- And they have common interests. And their common interests, they have cementing relationships because they have vested interest in growing together. And so I decided after law school to start Peaceworks, a company that had Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and Turks trading with one another, run by a confused Mexican Jew getting all of these guys together,

• 44:31Speaker 01

  running a brand called Moshe Pupik and Aleemish Mumkin's World Famous Gourmet Foods. I still don't know why it didn't work out.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  I made all the mistakes in the world, but I was so enamored with the concept. But I launched a venture in Sri Lanka between Sinhalese and Tamils, in Indonesia between Muslim, Christian, and Buddhist women, in South Africa in Chiapas, Mexico. And the concept was always to use market forces and Americans as, I'm a very romantic American, to use American optimism, to use your words, to bring people together and help them discover each other's humanity. And that's been a big part of, and I still today, after this horrible, painful war, we're now working really hard at Peaceworks 2.0, trying to find a way to help the people in Gaza

• 45:25Speaker 01

  and the people in the envelope on the Israeli side improve their lives and start building back- Working together. Right now, the step is just- Give them a sustenance and a better future and help them take baby steps. I think working together today is too much of an ask, but as an aspiration, I want to align incentives so that Palestinians, Israelis, other Arabs, internationals, everybody can work towards the same goal.

• 45:54Simon Sinek?

  Well, what I love is you're taking everything that you've learned and you know about building a remarkable brand and a remarkable company like Kind. And you're applying that to the social good and it's all the same thing. And so, you know, I think anybody who doesn't bet on you is naive. Because there is empirical data here to show that you actually know what you're talking about. And if anybody can succeed in actually producing a lasting peace in these conflicts that seem intractable, I think you're the one. So this is pretty cool.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 46:34Simon Sinek?

  Pretty amazing.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  The reality is that we have no other option but to figure it out. There's a lot at stake and so I appreciate you saying that. But even more important, we need to give agency to everybody listening for them to understand they have to be the ones leading the way. You have the most popular TED Talk out there. I have one that's nothing like that. But I did experience something interesting when I gave mine and I talked about how everybody in this room, when I talked to their community, understands this problem of growing division and rigidity. But they see it on the other side. They don't see it happening to them and their side. And that's, I think, the opportunity that we all have to understand

• 47:18Speaker 01

  that this is a threat against all of us and all of us need to join.

• 47:22Simon Sinek?

  Well, we need to get over this ridiculous notion that I'm right and they're wrong. Because everybody thinks they're on the side of right.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:28Simon Sinek?

  And both sides think the other side is wrong. And so until one can accept that I am part of the problem and they are part of the solution. You know, the reason for a peace movement is you can't make peace with your friends. You can only make peace with your enemies. And so to accept that we are part of the problem and they are part of the solution is the only way to arrive at peace because you can't get to peace with one side.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  I notice sometimes.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  That somebody that I respect a lot does something wrong. And a tool that helps me enormously that I that I realize that is a super good tool. Every time I find that, I ask, how am I also doing that problem? Like, for example, I was with a person that I admire enormously. And I asked for time with him to consult on an issue. And he started talking nonstop. And I couldn't get a word in edgewise. And I had very important things to share that could have calibrated his feedback to make it even stronger. But it was a little senior to me, and so I I just listened. But I started reflecting, oh, my God, I'm that person ninety nine percent of the time because I'm with team members of mine.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  And I need to, if I only spoke ten percent less, the quality of my feedback would be infinitely greater. Every time I notice that somebody else did something suboptimal, I'm like, oh, my God. I must have the same problem, and I try to detect it and find it, and it's hard. It's hard to find, it's so easy to observe in somebody else when they're doing it wrong. It takes harder work for you to find it in yourself, but that's how we grow.

• 49:02Simon Sinek?

  It's good advice for peace talks, it's good advice for relationships, it's good advice for for corporate culture. And I'll go back to what I said before, which is even in a relationship, you know, if you want your relationship to work, or you want your corporate culture to work, and you want your work relationship to work. You know, I am a part of the problem and they're a part of the solution. You know, that's your mantra versus I'm right and they're wrong. Or I know and they don't, and they need to listen and I need to talk. If you just flip all of those, and I I love what you said, I could do better at that, which is talk ten percent less, listen ten percent more.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  No, you're a very good listener.

• 49:34Simon Sinek?

  Oh, you're very kind. You've never worked with me. I talk a lot. I think out loud. That's part of my challenge. And so for me to process, I need to say things. And very often in a meeting scenario, it comes across as me doing all the talking, which it's not, it's me thinking. And so I have to learn that it's okay to process out loud, but I can process out loud at the end of the meeting, not at the beginning.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Or create the permission structure because I have the same issue, but I haven't processed that as well as you have. Create the permission structure for people to understand that just because you do that doesn't mean.

• 50:09Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Like I'll.

• 50:11Simon Sinek?

  I say, I say, I say very frequently, I'm thinking out loud here because I don't want people to think that I'm giving instructions or making conclusions. Kindness isn't just one of your values, it's the foundation of everything you've built. Was there a moment when someone's kindness towards you made a profound impact?

• 50:25Speaker 01

  All the time, but I mean, I feel bad to come up with a really silly example right now, but just yesterday or the day before, for some reason I had, I was having a, a kind of like not a great moment or day, I was in a, how do you say, in a rut?

• 50:44Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  And one of my team members, Taylor, just said something really kind to me and he just elevated me and made me soar and my reflection, again, to the point that's like when I noticed like, like, oh my God, I don't do enough of that because I'm always running, running, running, running and I don't take the time to thank team members and to elevate them and if it had such an impact on me and I'm the boss, if I could do that for my team, how much more effective would we all be? And so I think the power that every one of us has in our lives to make this a better world is insane, like, and oftentimes we, we, we forget that you may be walking on

• 51:29Speaker 01

  the street and just look at that person's eyes and, and give them love and smile and at a minimum, you've given them something positive. But sometimes that person has really dark thoughts about what they're going to do with their life or somebody else's lives. Sometimes you being kind to that person could save that person's life or somebody else's life. You never know how powerful those tiny, tiny little.

• 51:57Simon Sinek?

  Intervention.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Interventions of kindness, how, how big they can play, much bigger than you realize. All of us have so much going on.

• 52:05Simon Sinek?

  You often say that business can be a force for building bridges. What responsibilities do you think entrepreneurs have in a divided world?

• 52:12Speaker 01

  The way I think about is everybody, I don't want to be preachy, everybody has to find what gives them meaning. For me, in this world, I find it imperative to.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Build bridges because I don't want to inherit to my children something worse than what I found. I feel like our generation, and I think I'm a little older than you, but directly we're in the same age, I'm fifty seven, but it's insane how good I've had it. And in the last ten, twenty years, I feel like things are moving in the wrong direction. And I owe it to my children and every entrepreneur owes it to future generations to leave the world better than you found it. So I just think it gives you so much more meaning, meaning so much more agency, much more purpose. I'm not doing it to be preacher. Like, it is more fun to be solving these problems and to try to help make this a better world. And so that's what drives me.

• 53:06Simon Sinek?

  I think one of the things that you have an advantage of is you have a father who told you his story. And I don't mean because it's a traumatic story that he went through. But there's data that shows that when we understand something about our ancestry or our even where our grandparents came from, that we don't see ourselves as beginning now. We see ourselves as continuing something that somebody began before us. The data shows that people who have a sense of where they come from make better long term decisions. Because when people say, oh, I'm doing it for my children. No, that never happens. No politician or nobody's doing it for their children. They're doing it for themselves. But when there's someone who came before them and sacrificed for them to get to this point, they don't want to let down the person who came before them and they want to uphold

• 53:49Simon Sinek?

  that, that, that, that honor. And so, you know, that your father sat you down at nine and said, I need you to know where you come from and what I did before you. You feel this responsibility to your own history. You cannot let your father's legacy go in vain. And I think to teach people where they come from and to uphold that legacy, I think is vital for us to make better long term decisions.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  I love that. It's very true. And it helps not just for that. It also helps for young people to reach good decisions about their health and about their well being, to understand that they have something to give and a responsibility to give it and that they need to be mindful about how they, the decisions they reach.

• 54:28Simon Sinek?

  Daniel, thank you so much.