How To Regulate Your Nervous System: Anxiety, Relationships, and the Baggage You Didn't Ask For | Dr. Bruce Perry

Plus: how trauma rewires the brain, why connection is the most powerful regulator, and small practices that actually work. Dr. Bruce Perry https://www.bdperry.com/about is the Principal of the Neurosequential Network https://www.neurosequential.com/ and a Professor at the School of Allied Health, Human Services and Sport, La Trobe University, Melbourne, Victoria Australia. His work on the impact of abuse, neglect and trauma on development has informed clinical practice, programs and policy across the world. Dr. Perry's most recent book, What Happened to You? Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing https://www.amazon.com/What-Happened-You-Understanding-Resilience/dp/1250223180, co-authored with Oprah Winfrey, has been translated into 26 languages and has been on the New York Times Bestseller list for over 100 weeks after becoming #1 on the list in April of 2021. In this episode we talk about: EMDR and the importance of moving your body The hardest type of trauma to deal with The perks of getting in touch with the fact that, to quote Dr. Perry, everyone is wandering around in a fucking fog...and how this perspective helps us become more generous in our lives.. Both toward ourselves and others. How it's never too late to heal trauma Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Additional Resources: The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Who-Raised-Psychiatrists-Notebook-What-ebook/dp/B01MSVMQR1/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=EdZct&content-id=amzn1.sym.3a079c4e-f938-40c9-a0ed-01ef0e9528e9&pf_rd_p=3a079c4e-f938-40c9-a0ed-01ef0e9528e9&pf_rd_r=141-9976842-2413604&pd_rd_wg=8nfJb&pd_rd_r=4104f6c5-ace0-4a5f-88bf-453e9319025e Born For Love: Why Empathy is Essential and Endangered https://www.amazon.com/Born-Love-Empathy-Essential-Endangered/dp/0061656798/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0 Join Dan, Sebene Selassie, and Jeff Warren for Meditation Party, a 3-day immersive retreat at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, NY, October 16–18. Grab your in-person spot here https://www.eomega.org/workshops/meditation-party, or sign up to livestream here https://www.eomega.org/workshops/meditation-party-livestream! To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:18Dan Harris?

  Hello, everybody. How we doing? One way for me to judge the power of an interview that I've done for this show is, how voluminous are my notes afterward? Using that yardstick, the interview you're about to hear was a very powerful one. Let me start by giving credit to my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, who is my co-interviewer for this episode. She suggested that we recruit Dr. Bruce Perry as a guest after she read a book that Bruce co-authored with Oprah Winfrey. It's called "What Happened to You", and it's about, in part, the radical shift in perspective that can come when we change our question from "What's wrong with you?" to "What happened to you?" We can apply this question to ourselves and to other people.

• 1:01Dan Harris?

  Essentially, we're talking here about trauma, but not just big T-trauma, a concept that may not apply to everyone, but also small T-trauma, what my friend Dr. Mark Epstein calls "the trauma of everyday life," the trauma that comes from living in a world characterized by impermanence and entropy. That kind of trauma is universal. And Dr. Perry, who is the principal of the Neuro-Sequential Network and professor in the Departments of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University, Dr. Perry has some incredibly interesting thoughts about how to heal. What I found interesting is that healing, which can sound like a kind of grandiose or maybe out-of-reach concept, is a much more down-to-earth process, in Dr. Perry's

• 1:44Dan Harris?

  view. Part of his prescription is to focus on small moments, what some researchers call "micro-interactions." He also talks about the value of moderate challenges, like travel, how to get better at making up after arguments with people, which psychologists call "rupture and repair." We also talk about the concept of "safety," which can be controversial and sound to some like PC nonsense, but from a neurobiological standpoint, it makes a lot of sense, and it made me reflect quite a bit on how to get the most out of my relationships. Oh, and we also talk about where personal responsibility fits into all of this. So like I said, fascinating interview, Dr. Bruce Perry. Just to say before we dive in, this episode originally ran in May of 2024,

• 2:27Dan Harris?

  but we're bringing it out of the archives because it was that good. A few things before we hear from our sponsors, I've got exciting news. If you love this show, but do not love listening to the advertisements, a subscription to my app, 10% with Dan Harris, now includes a private, ad-free feed of the 10% Happier Podcast, available on whatever platform you choose, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or right inside the app itself. Plus, along with an ad-free listening experience, the app also gives you a growing library of meditations from world-class teachers, exclusive live stream events with me and many of our incredible instructors, and robust and supportive discussion threads where you can ask questions, share your struggles,

• 3:12Dan Harris?

  and connect with our growing community. We've got a free 14-day trial. If you want to try before you buy, join the party. DanHarris.com. We'll get started with Dr. Bruce Perry right after this.

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• 3:55Dan Harris?

  Dr. Bruce Perry, welcome to the show.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. It's my pleasure.

• 4:00Dan Harris?

  Dr. Bianca Harris, welcome back to the show.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Thank you. Also my pleasure.

• 4:06Dan Harris?

  I'm going to just say unusual. I'm actually going to direct the first question at Bianca, but it's going to be about you, Bruce. Bianca, this was your idea to do this episode. So I'm just curious, why did you want to have Dr. Perry on the show?

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I found this book, What Happened to You, to be sort of a game changer in terms of how I think about what is wrong with me, which is really not the way one should look at it, as you'll explain. Background being that about a year ago, I was preparing a book proposal on imposter syndrome, really addressing the feelings that I have in those moments, notably at the hospital, where intellect and performance are really measures of your worth. And I was very interested in the fear response, and in my research, came upon your book. But what I got out of it was so much more, because my thesis, or at least my approach to my investigation, was literally to ask the question, what is wrong with me?

• 5:04Speaker 03

  And what are the origins of that? And I kept coming up against shame. So as much as I was revealing things, I was uncomfortable and not fully sure where I was going with it. So your book very much helped me to re-center and ask the question differently. And the rest I just found to be incredibly revealing in terms of the impact of trauma on the developing brain and on who we are as adults.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Wow, that's actually very gratifying to hear. It's interesting, because I have, I think, most of my life, I still, every once in a while, feel like somebody's gonna grab me on the shoulder and go, hey, you're from North Dakota, what are you doing here? It's not permeating imposter syndrome, but it's episodic, right? There'll be a certain context where you're like, wow, am I really here doing this? And I always have a little part of my head goes, my buddies from high school would just be laughing at me. I'm wearing a suit, and I'm acting like I can answer this question, and I look like I'm a responsible guy, and they know better.

• 6:13Dan Harris?

  Let me just start with the title of the book because that was so compelling to Bianca, obviously, but I would like to hear your point of view. Why make this switch from what's the matter with me to what happened to me or what happened to you?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  I think that is a reframing question. It really makes someone take a historical perspective on the present circumstance. And the origin of that phrase actually came from a colleague of mine who was, I knew peripherally, but he'd been working with another person I knew really well, Dr. Sandy Bloom. And they were just beginning to introduce the importance of a developmental history of life experience, including traumatic experience, into their clinical work. Because it used to be you'd come in and somebody'd say, oh, Billy's aggressive and inattentive and he throws things and he spits and kicks. And you'd go, all right, well, you've checked this box and this box and this box and you

• 7:09Speaker 02

  have ADHD, psychotic disorder, and we're going to treat you because there's something wrong with you. And over time, those of us who are kind of developmentally oriented, recognize that, you know, you can kick and spit and be inattentive and hostile for a lot of different reasons. You know, and the intervention you use to try to help somebody is going to vary depending upon how you got there. So if you got there because you have condition X or history X, you'll interact with them in a different way. And so it literally reframed the whole approach to clinical work. And the reason it's the title of the book was because, and I think I say in the book,

• 7:54Speaker 02

  I've known Oprah for many, many, many, many years. And during that time, we'd had many, many conversations about behavior and people and circumstances and these, and bad things that have happened to people and so forth. And I kept trying to teach her the things that I was.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Learning about, you know, what's important and how this happens and how you can help people. And, and she's very, very smart. So she picked up a lot of this stuff really quickly. And, you know, fast forward to 25 years later, she's a special correspondent for 60 Minutes, doing a story about women who've been, that had experienced domestic violence and they're in this shelter and it's in Milwaukee and it's kind, she has a soft spot for Milwaukee because she kind of grew up there in part. And so when she visited this place, they said, "Oh, we use the model that Dr. Perry use, you know, develop." And she's like, "You mean Dr.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Bruce? Dr. Bruce Perry? I know Dr. Bruce." So she called me up and said, "Do you want to be on 60 Minutes?" And I'm like, "Not really."

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Because I honestly, I'm not, you know, I'm not very good in front of a camera and a lot. So I decided to do it. I went out and we had her an interview and we saw some stuff. And afterwards, we're having lunch and she was talking about one of the boys there who had had really horrific background, but they'd done all kinds of things to help for years. You know, they'd jumped through hoops. They'd gotten him therapists. They'd gotten him opportunities and still he was really struggling. And, and she said, "I don't know what's wrong with that kid." And I said, "Well, you know, the, the real question isn't what's wrong with him. It's what happened to him that he can't take advantage of these things that

• 9:48Speaker 02

  people are offering?" You know, for me, it was a phrase that I'd been using a lot and a lot of people in our field have been using, but it finally crystallized for her the things that we've been talking about. And in that moment, she really, all of the things we've been talking about kind of fell in place and she understood it from a different perspective. And I realized also in that moment, what a crappy teacher I must be, that it, it took years for her to finally get it. In one sentence, you know, one phrase, she, she understands it and all that talking to her for years did nothing. Anyway.

• 10:20Dan Harris?

  That's your imposter syndrome talking, but, but I'm, I'm curious, for somebody listening, how would it be helpful for us?

• 10:31Dan Harris?

  To reframe the question, and then I'd like to hear how it helped Bianca. But from you, Bruce, what is the value to an individual to moving from what's wrong with me, what's the matter with me, to what happened to me?

• 10:44Speaker 02

  Well, I do a lot of my work with children and adolescents and some adults, but a lot of times, the behaviors of those children are disturbing. They upset adults. They make teachers get mad, parents get frustrated, and it changes the relationship between those two people, the child that's struggling and the adult that's trying to help. And when you actually change your frame of reference, if you knew the story of some of these kids that were acting out in school, it would break your heart. And so the way you interact with them in the moment is going to be more a reflection of your empathic awareness of the pain that they're having, as opposed to the fact that

• 11:29Speaker 02

  they're a pain in the ass and they don't follow directions. And so, once that shift takes place, you're in a position to be relationally sympathetic, more compassionate, and more likely to create a connection that can lead to some healing for that person. Whereas if you don't have that perspective, and you go, you're just a pain in the ass, I'm sick of this, and I'm kicking you out of class, you can literally change the whole trajectory of that child's life. And that reframe is essential if we're going to really address some of the problems we're having right now in education, and in mental health, and in child welfare.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  And all of these systems we have to try to help people have to shift away from blaming people and move more towards understanding people. And when we do that, I think that will create better practices and programs and policy.

• 12:28Dan Harris?

  What about in how I think about myself or anybody thinks about themselves? What's the value of switching these questions?

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Biggest value is that you start to give yourself, that same shift can happen with yourself, right? You're nicer to yourself. You don't have these unrealistic expectations. Oh, I should lose 20 pounds and I should get more in better condition and I should read a book a week. And all these aspirational things that are fine to have, but very few of us can consistently achieve those all the time. Instead of beating yourself up, you just need to say, all right, that's, I got a lot on my plate. I'm a little over ambitious. I'm comparing myself to these unrealistic ideals and slow down. You know, just give yourself a break and you're doing the best you can and just keep going. Just the power of showing up is just amazing.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  But what happens is it's like a diet. When you, when you can't reach this unrealistic sort of set of expectations, people tend to quit. So instead of getting up the next day and going, all right, I didn't achieve my goal of steps or I didn't work out every day last week, I'm not going to quit working out. I'm just going to get up, all right, get up, get back on a horse, you know, go as far as you can, as long as you can and as well as you can. And, and that leads to getting better and that leads to being more, the more forgiving you are, oddly enough, the, the more forgiving of yourself about all these imperfections, the more they start to disappear.

• 14:07Dan Harris?

  So Bianca, what was the effect of, of reframing the question for yourself and your thinking about your own life, mind, behavior?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  I think the first step actually was appreciating through your work and your conversation with Oprah that was extremely user-friendly that

• 14:33Speaker 03

  Trauma as a word, which we should discuss as the definition, is certainly, there's a big T-trauma, as we call it, the big things, the car accidents and the violence and the assault and the war. And then there are traumas of everyday life. And I think it's very difficult, as someone who's had, you know, some of both, at any given time to not be sure how to validate any one of those things. You know, if I've been through a big trauma around divorce, my parents divorce, or my personal health, or some kind of assault, well, it's not as bad as it is for other people. So does that really count? And if

• 15:15Speaker 03

  I'm having more trouble with, you know, practices in daily life that should not be so difficult, but that trigger me in a way that those big things did, well, then I would judge myself as dysfunctional for that, too. So what your book did, which most other books that I've read on trauma and the brain and psychology and behavior don't do, is actually normalize the experience of trauma in life. I think you both highlight the very important special circumstances around PTSD and, you know, circumstances that nobody argues would be trauma, but also that we have experiences that are traumatic, based on things that

• 16:00Speaker 03

  we don't fully understand. So I guess in that vein, then, you know, if you could provide a definition of trauma that can help people sort of look at their lives and not dismiss their own traumatic experiences because they don't fall in the major category.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Right. You know, Bianca, that that whole area is someplace that our field broadly is getting better at talking about. For the longest time, it's still, in certain academic arenas, there's still this argument about, you know, the event is, does that reach a threshold of being life-threatening and et cetera, et cetera, so that you can give this diagnosis. And I think the more important part of life experience that we're learning shifts the biology of your body that that could be labeled traumatic.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Can range tremendously from person to person and context to context. So the definitions that I think are useful is to start to think about. There is the the three E thing I talk about in the book, and that's a conceptualization that was developed by a consensus panel at SAMSA, which I think was a really a lot of hard work, but I think it was a good result. So the three Es are this, there's the event, right? So like you say, you can read the paper and you go, oh, these kids were in a school shooting. That's certainly that sounds traumatic, right? That's an event. But there's the experience of kids at that shooting and people impacted by that shooting

• 17:36Speaker 02

  will be very different, depending upon how close you were to the event, how aware you were of what was going on, whether there were people around that made you feel safe and so forth. So literally, the internal experience that you have when that event's taking place is also very important. And then the third thing is what are the long-term effects? So you can have a child who's in a big, has this internal huge stress response, but a month later is fine because he's had all kinds of support and opportunities to kind of work it through and make sense out of it and now feel safe again back at school. And so all of those factors will influence how people carry that forward, how that will influence people.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  And I think one of the more important parts of what our work is beginning to help people understand better is that, first of all, coming from the perspective and awareness that human beings are relational creatures, we are literally neurobiologically interconnected to the people around us. And so the experiences and the behaviors and the sensory cues that people around us provide literally change our biology. And this can be change your biology in good ways and in bad ways. And all of the neurobiological networks in our body that are responsible and mediate our stress responses are very, very tightly yoked to the relational neurobiology that

• 19:06Speaker 02

  we use to read and respond to nonverbal cues. And so you can go to work and you can have a group of coworkers who don't like you, and they make it clear.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  And it's not in these overt ways. I mean, they'll come up to you and say, oh, we don't like you. We hate you. They they do little things, you know, like they'll talk and then they'll look at you and giggle. And at lunch, you know, you sit at a table and they'll get up and oh, I gotta run and everybody peels away. You know, there's a lot of little things that that don't seem like trauma. But the reality is, to your body, the internal effect, the internal experience of being marginalized in that setting, and then the long term effects are exactly the same as if as if you'd been in some big capital T trauma event. And so I think this is something

• 20:03Speaker 02

  that we need to think about in better understanding context of being an outsider whenever there's some sort of circumstance. And the outsider could be you're the wrong race. You know, you you don't have the right gender identification. You don't have the right you have an accent when you speak. You know, you don't you don't have the right TV aura or presence or whatever it is. You you can be marginalized in whatever group you're in and have the result be a physiological shift in your body that will literally increase your risk for physical health problems, mental health problems, social problems, and so forth. And I think the more we understand that, the more

• 20:47Speaker 02

  we can recognize the power of helping people feel safe, included, make it an environment where they feel like they belong. And a lot of this stuff that kind of is getting made fun of now when people talk about inclusion and diversity, you know, all of that, that people are going after that in what in part because they don't understand this physiology. I mean, if you understand the neurobiology of this stuff, you would have a much better appreciation of the impact of being an outsider in a mainstream culture. And but I and honestly, I think that movement has unfortunately not really done a very good job describing the biology of this. And maybe that will be one of the nice things that can come out of this work.

• 21:33Dan Harris?

  What about inherited trauma? We talk a lot about you. You hear that phrase tossed around. Is there research to back up this notion? How does it work? How should we think about it in our own lives?

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it's that's a very big area. And

• 21:51Speaker 02

  I think heritability is some, again, this is something that would be really, if we were more a science literate population, we could talk about this a little bit easier, but heritability doesn't just happen because of genetics, right? The language you speak is heritable because the people around you speak that language, but there's no genetics that codes for English versus Norwegian versus Spanish. It's all the same genetic matrix that allows us to speak language. But the heritage, a component of the heritability is the developmental experiences of what you hear and how you learn that language.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  So we can grow up and create an environment where we've created any transgenerational passage of racist perspectives, for example, or racist beliefs or racist attitudes, racist jokes. That helps contribute to the heritable trauma of people who are the target of those systems, those jokes, those policies, those practices. And we do pass things from generation to generation to generation, both good and bad. In the book, we can pass the fear of dogs from generation to generation if there were people in your family who are deathly afraid of dogs.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  And so every time a little child in your family was around a dog or saw a dog, the terror, the feeling of the adult would be absorbed by that child. And that child would literally develop the same fear of dogs based upon what might have been the experience of a great-grandparent. So that can be an experience-mediated heritability, but it's also possible that certain epigenetic, you know, basically chemical elements that influence how our genes turn on and off, those are heritable. And experience changes those epigenetic factors, which can be transmitted for multiple generations.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  And so there are really interesting animal studies that show that you can teach animals to be afraid of a certain smell, for example, rats in this case. And they're afraid of that smell because they get shocked every time they have that smell.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  And then three generations, their offspring will have the same star response to that smell as even without ever being exposed to it, ever being shocked because of that smell. And so there is some epigenetic passage of the physiological associations we make about specific fear-related experiences and events. So, but it's a young field. We've got a lot to learn yet, so.

• 24:40Dan Harris?

  So I think what we've established thus far is that trauma may be a word that listeners have a variety of feelings about. They might see themselves in that word, or might think it's actually limited to people who've been through something extreme. However, I think what we've established is that it is just part of the fabric of being alive, and it can come at us through the experiences in our lives, or the experiences of the people who lived before us. And that all makes sense to me. I think the question that comes up in my mind, as I think about this, you know, to take us right back to the top, the reframing from what's the matter with you to what happened to you, is where does personal responsibility

• 25:24Dan Harris?

  fit in all of this? I can imagine people listening to this thinking, well, if you ask the question that way, are you taking any personal responsibility out of the picture?

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, again, a very good question. And I think you're right. It's a very common formulation when people start to talk about the relationship between a traumatic event and a behavior, or the way somebody acts. And absolutely worth taking a really deep dive into this, because you can explain a behavior. It does not mean that you're exculpating it. You don't necessarily, you can certainly, I don't want to necessarily pull on the Middle East right now, but you know, there's horrible things that happen between peoples. When sort of the othering happens, and tribalism happens throughout all history, in the extreme,

• 26:17Speaker 02

  you basically can find narratives where a grandparent lived through a, an event where tribe X raided our clan, and killed somebody, and raped the women, and took off the children, and did all these horrible things. And then when those.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Children got older, they went and did that to the other clan. And that we've hit, history is characterized by that kind of stuff.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  But I do think that there, the thing that I think is important about a lot of this is recognizing that the more you understand the biology underneath this, the more you realize that you actually have agency, you have the ability to intentionally control and change a lot of the things about the way you're wired. That's the interesting thing. The very same neurobiological characteristics that make you develop trauma-related sensitivity when you're exposed to a bad thing, also can help you change that sensitivity in a good way if you have appropriate, small doses of revisiting that, that experience, that stressor.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  And so that's kind of what therapeutics does. It allows you an opportunity when you have some predictability, you have control over how much you talk about it, when you talk about it, what part of it you talk about. But if you do that repetitively enough, literally that changes the physiology of your body, including the physiology of your brain. So you, you can get better and that's a controllable thing. This is, that, that's a really important part of healing, I think, is recognizing that there are controllable aspects of your life that will make whatever burden you have easier to carry. One of the biggest challenges we've had in the last couple of years is dealing with

• 28:14Speaker 02

  large-scale natural disasters or large-scale events like war. We can kind of do a, an analysis of the capacity of the mental health community and then the need of the people impacted by war or the earthquake. And every time we do that, we see that the traditional mental health system is completely ill-equipped or unable to meet the needs of the people who have experienced traumatic events. And in part, I think that that was a good thing because it made us recognize that, you know what? Human beings have been experiencing trauma for the whole history of our species and

• 28:56Speaker 02

  cultures have always come up with some way to manage loss, grief, sadness.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  And they have incorporated these practices that are very, very powerful. Pattern repetitive rhythmic activity, which sort of tones down certain parts of your stress response system. But different cultures use dance, they use song, they use community meals, they use community rituals. They use activities that bring people together in connection with each other to be comforters for each other. And those are very healing phenomenon, which I think really in the long run will be part of what we have to do. I mean, our Western world is so vulnerable to big traumatic events and small traumatic events because we are so fragmented.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  And we are so, I hate to say it, but we're sort of culturally bankrupt. I mean, we don't have routines and rituals around all of these things. That like, you know, when people get sick, when people die, when people move, when people get a new job, when people make a transition into an adult life. You know, many cultures have these very, very well established centuries long heritages of putting these, these practices together. And I believe that a lot of them have these, the elements that would be helpful for people trying to heal from loss, trauma, stress, distress, anxiety, depression and so forth.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  And that's kind of the direction that a lot of people are beginning to take now around focusing more on the community elements that create safety, stability, predictability, that would allow people who experience trauma to better heal. Because what we know is that if you provide somebody who's in a community that's fragmented, and they don't have any connection to extended family and they got no connection to their community, they have no, they're really sort of have poverty relationships. If you send them to the best therapist in Manhattan once a week, they're not going to do very well. Because we heal in community.

• 31:12Dan Harris?

  So going back to the top of that answer, this isn't about stripping away personal responsibility, explaining away people's behavior, no matter how problematic it is or whatever. It's about understanding it in its proper context, because that is the only way in which healing and personal responsibility can actually take place down the road.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. That's exactly right. And we think this is why, you know, this is why I wrote this book with Oprah. You know, one of the biggest issues, I think, in all of science is that we have people that are doing great work, but they tend to be very poor communicators. And I mean, look at the terrible communication that happened during the pandemic. It was just all over the place. We just did a terrible job of engaging and communicating to the public. And so you've got all of this insanity out there. And I think that that's part of what we, well, academic medicine needs to value the translators among us better

• 32:21Speaker 02

  and help people communicate to other people some of these concepts and not get so pissed off every time that communication process, out of necessity, distills or simplifies something. Because the reality is, you know, you can drown people in factoids, but it doesn't help them in the end. You need to be able to communicate some concepts and principles and facts. And I think that the more people understand these things, the more we develop, sort of, we build capacity as a society to continue to grow in positive ways. And I think one of the key areas where we do need to learn more and share more is around this whole issue of the importance of connectedness, the power of relationships, you know, the way our stress response systems work, the fact that, you know,

• 33:06Speaker 02

  the just basic fundamental stuff about state-dependent functioning, which is basically saying that when somebody feels safe, they think better than when they feel threatened. And, and I mean, if you want to understand American politics, if you don't understand state-dependent functioning, you will forever be scratching your head about how somebody supposedly smart people can do so many stupid things. But it's about threat. You know, fear has basically a tool that's always been used by people in power to dumb down the populace so that makes them easier to lead and easier to influence and so forth. The more we understand that as a people, the less, I think, the less vulnerable we

• 33:50Speaker 02

  will be to fear mongering perspectives and we can think for ourselves. Wow, I sound like I'm a politician here. This is crazy.

• 33:58Dan Harris?

  Well, a politician I would actually vote for. Coming up, Dr. Bruce Perry talks about the definition of EMDR and the importance of moving your body, the hardest type of trauma to deal with, the perks of getting in touch with the fact that, to quote Dr. Perry, "Everybody is wandering around in a fucking fog," and how this perspective helps us become more generous in our lives, both toward ourselves and others, and how it is never too late to heal trauma. I wear a lot of T-shirts because I work from home and I'm a podcaster and so I can

• 34:40Dan Harris?

  be as casual as I want and it's a nice little way to rebel against several decades in the news business when I had to wear a suit all the time. And anyway, the other day I was putting on a T-shirt and I thought, man, is this one of these, it looks really good. And I was wondering, is this one of these expensive T-shirts that I got for my birthday that my wife got for me? And then I realized, no, this is a T-shirt from Quince, which did not cost me much money at all, and by the way, is much nicer and more comfortable and better looking than all of the expensive T-shirts that I recently got for the aforementioned birthday. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants or the tee you somehow always reach for first?

• 35:23Dan Harris?

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• 36:03Dan Harris?

  Couple of months ago, I bought my wife a birthday gift, which she returned. She did not mean any disrespect, but the fact is, the gift, honestly, this is on me, was a little impersonal and it wasn't really what fit her needs. I wanted to surprise her. I made a guess, but I did not guess correctly. And this happens all the time when you're looking for gifts. It's so easy to miss and to give something that doesn't feel on the mark, on the money, and personalized to the recipient of the gift. Which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Zazzle, which is a custom marketplace where you can take basically any product, a mug, a tote bag, a card, a phone case, and make it mean something.

• 36:47Dan Harris?

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• 38:06Speaker 03

  It feels egocentric to pull it back to the individual, but that's really all I can speak on personally. And I think relating to your question, Dan, about understanding and does that sort of obviate the need for accountability? For me, understanding, I can liken it to sort of a dust storm. It helps it settle. And then you can see the sort of landscape and you can identify individual things that need to be addressed. But until it sort of calms down and you can see what's what, it is just overwhelming. And you're constantly triggered. There's stress responses all over the place and you can't even trust your own impression and response to things.

• 38:51Speaker 03

  So, I mean, Dan and I have had this conversation recently about, you know, is understanding enough? I wouldn't say it's enough, but it's a huge part of it. I don't know how much just understanding alone might change your neurobiology, but it certainly provides, I think, you know, the fork at which you can choose what, as you say, therapeutic path you might go down. And in my case, you know, I've been doing EMDR, which is a trauma-based modality that maybe in a minute you can speak on. But I have found in my reading, both around, again, significant traumas, but also less significant ones for lack of a better word,

• 39:35Speaker 03

  that a lot of the tools that are used for people with PTSD are actually very, very useful for people without that clinical diagnosis. And I don't think that enough of the sort of lay community, even therapists, know enough about these sort of mind-body experiences. And I'm just learning about them to understand that your brain really can be rewired. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on sort of next steps, if you do have the opportunity to understand yourself enough to go there.

• 40:09Dan Harris?

  Can somebody define EMDR? And also list some other pattern repetitive rhythmic activities? Just to make this very practical for people who want to figure out.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. So EMDR stands for Eye Movement and Desensitization and Reprocessing. It's a therapeutic technique that involves...

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Originally involved moving your eyes from one side to the next and tracking, looking to the side and looking the other side, back and forth and back and forth in a certain rhythm while you were thinking about the traumatic event. And so the idea is to sort of bring the traumatic event or an element of the event to mind. Then you start to feel uncomfortable and distressed and then you do this short circuiting activity and it works. It's amazing. If you have a discreet event and you, you know, you're 25 years old, you have a traumatic event, there's a lot of really good data to show, and I've seen it

• 41:11Speaker 02

  happen with people that I've worked with, where two or three sessions can actually make somebody feel significantly better about that specific event. So I think it can have tremendously positive impact. I'm glad you brought up EMDR because I think it's a very powerful technique and approach, but it is essentially a variant of traditional pattern repetitive bilateral somatosensory activities that were part of every single healing ritual that you can look at across the planet from primitive cultures or not primitive cultures, Aboriginal indigenous cultures. And the reason that, that on, you know, all of the

• 41:55Speaker 02

  different continents, those elements emerged independently is because they work. That when you do pattern repetitive rhythmic activity that involve bilateral activation, it could be dancing, drumming, EMDR, davening, lots of kinds of meditative prayer involved, that even the chanting has this rhythm, that that actually is tapping into this very deeply built in memory that almost everybody has that originated in utero when our brain was first making associations between interoceptive feedback about are you hungry, thirsty, cold,

• 42:39Speaker 02

  and sensory input that was coming from outside the womb that was predominantly rhythmic and from maternal heart rate and the opening and closing of the, the valves of the heart. And it's so that the association between pattern repetitive rhythmic stuff as being

• 42:58Speaker 02

  A way to kind of calm us and regulate us is, and whether it's through breathing, whether it's through walking, or swimming, or running, or whatever, that's a universally useful element that I think, for example, in modern educational settings, we've kind of cut out. And I mean, the irony is that all the research shows it, that that's a really effective way to get information into your cortex to learn new things, is learn it in movement, and you retain better, you test better, all that kinds of stuff. But that simple piece of information, I think everybody can connect it when they start thinking about their own life, right? I get, I really have a bad day, and I need to go work out, I need to go running, I need

• 43:43Speaker 02

  to go for a bike ride, I need to go swimming, I need to take a walk, I need to listen to music, and whatever it is, if you're, you know, some people are small motor people, I need to do my needlework, I need to do my drawing, whatever it is, but it's all pattern repetitive, somatosensory stuff. And it, it really gets into the lower parts of the brain and helps, you know, these core regulatory networks that are involved in keeping us in balance, it helps them basically get signals that say you're safe. And then that leads to this cascade of other things that makes it easier to function in relationships and so forth. But, and I have no idea how I got here, I'm off on a tangent, I went off on a complete tangent, we were talking about EMDR, right?

• 44:27Speaker 03

  Well, no, it's very relevant, we were talking about EMDR, but, but those, those pattern movements and, and in some ways, it sounds like you're saying those things are useful no matter the origin of your trauma and the impact on your biology. So if you don't want to spend however many years in therapy to truly understand the roots of X, Y, and Z, doing those things may still alleviate.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely, I agree, that's exactly right. And what, and what I'm also saying is that, I like, I love EMDR, far north in Canada, and there's no EMDR practitioner, I send in an elder, and they do traditional drumming. And it's the same, to me, it's kind of having the same impact. Now, the thing, and again, I don't want to, it's hard to do this with words because I'm really not that good with words. But when you experience a traumatic event, your brain, it creates a memory in multiple different parts of your brain.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Not just the part of your brain that remembers names and faces and phone numbers, which is the top, the cortex. You also remember the emotion, right? The fear. And then you also, even lower in the brain, your body and parts of, you know, your body literally retain elements of association or memory

• 45:58Speaker 02

  that recreate the physiological state of fear. So literally, you can, 20 years later, you can see a picture of something like a car accident that you might have been in, and your heart rate will go up. And if you could track all these other physiological things, they would activate too. That's the tiny little residual memory. But the thing about EMDR that's really cool is that this trauma memory is interconnected. It's there's multiple components to this complete memory from the traumatic event. So you can remember it, and you can feel what you felt like, and then you have the physiological response. But EMDR and some of these other pattern repetitive rhythmic things, what they

• 46:40Speaker 02

  help you do is that you are helping short circuit the default to that distressful part of the memory. Because when you do pattern repetitive rhythmic activity, you're activating a much more powerful memory that was built into your brain in utero, when your brain was making an association between being safe, not cold, not hungry, not thirsty, because you're in utero, and hearing

• 47:09Speaker 02

  And so replicating that, that's more powerful than the physiological shred of that trauma memory. And so if you do EMDR while you're thinking about the event, you literally are able to unyoke them. One of the most challenging and difficult forms of traumatic experience to deal with is when the trauma took place prior to like age three, and you've got the mechanisms to create linear narrative memory.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  And if the traumatic event took place in context of some of the primary relationships you had as an infant or young child. And so what happens is, and this is just a heartbreaking phenomenon, is if the people responsible for caring for you were also the people who episodically hurt you, or were gone, or scared you, or did whatever, that your brain makes an association between certain attributes of relational intimacy and threat. And so what happens is later on, as you get older, you get into relationships of all sorts.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  You use all kinds of protective practices, defensive practices, to prevent somebody from getting too close. And if somebody does get too close, usually you adapt these maladaptive ways to drive them away. And that's the heartbreaking thing, is a lot of people have no idea what's going on. Why do they sabotage relationships? Why does intimacy, why do I long for it, but then when I do get it, I have to be exactly, I have to control every aspect of the closeness? And if I don't, I feel completely overwhelmed. And that's when, that's not always, but it's usually because there was some aspect of

• 49:14Speaker 02

  relational inconsistency early, early in life. And that's one of the harder forms of developmental trauma to kind of deal with.

• 49:21Speaker 03

  I can relate to that in so many ways. But one thing that has helped me, given that, like you said, without a conscious awareness of the narrative that you could have put together before you had word choice, which I can, I can kind of create a story around it, but most helpful for me around that potentially damaging narrative is understanding where that person came from. Not in a way that shifts accountability completely away from you, and I say accountability, meaning to take care of your, your behavior and your problems in the now, it's not up

• 50:05Speaker 03

  to that person, but it helped me understand.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  You know, where that parent, for example, came from in their experience, what kind of emotional trauma did they inherit? And it goes back to the question of what happened to you.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Because it's not just about what happened to me, it's about what happened to that person. And it does depersonalize it in a way that is, removes some of the heartbreak of not being able to fully describe the scene of the crime, if you will, because you recognize that whatever it was, the behavior was a function of where that person came from. They probably are suffering through in their history, the way you might be now.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  And again, the dust storm settles enough that you pick up the piece that you think you might now be able to modify.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, I think the beauty of getting older is that hopefully, we all are walking around in a fucking fog. I mean, hey, it's sad, but sorry.

• 51:12Dan Harris?

  No, no, that's what we love talking like that around here.

• 51:14Speaker 03

  That's his love language.

• 51:15Dan Harris?

  Yeah, exactly. More Fox is the better.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  We have this fantasy that, that, that everybody's life is somehow better. And, and I, I think as you get older, you kind of hear more stories, right? You kind of see through the veneer of the families that you thought were the perfect families and the people you thought were perfect. And you realize, man, everybody's, nobody, first of all, nobody gets out of this alive. And second of all, man, everybody's had their thing. And I think if you can give, you know, if you can get that perspective, it just, it makes it easier for you to be generous of heart, not just for the people around you, but for yourself.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  I think, I can't tell you how many people I know, some of whom are just wildly successful, who are just inside feeling so inadequate and unhappy. And I think it's, I think it's so important, Bianca, just like what you said, that you just kind of realize that, you know? The things that happened to me, the people who at that time I felt like they let me down, something had to happen to them. And then when you look back and you go, wow, you hear some of those stories, like, I'm surprised they were as nice to me as they were, considering what happened to them. And life is not easy. Life is just plain not easy. And it's hard being a

• 52:42Speaker 02

  parent. And it's hard showing up and being consistent every day in any relationship. But I think that's the thing about learning about this is that, listen, it's never too late. And showing up is like a huge part of it. Show up. Just show up.

• 53:00Dan Harris?

  There was some poet who said something like, if we could read the secret histories of our enemies, we would view them in a completely different light. And I think that's kind of what you're both pointing at here.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  You know, Abraham Lincoln said something that is very much like that. There was a congressman that he really disliked. And at one point, he said to somebody in his cabinet, he said, I really dislike that man. And then he paused for a moment and said, I must get to know him.

• 53:30Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Because he's like, he recognized it like, if I really got to know him, then I wouldn't.

• 53:33Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Just like you said, Danny, I wouldn't, I wouldn't dislike him as much.

• 53:38Dan Harris?

  Well, that's the root to another Lincoln phrase, malice toward none. Right? I mean, that, that's how you get there. I think I'm not saying I'm there, but I do think it's, that's the path.

• 53:52Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Dr. Bruce Perry talks about more practical ways for healing trauma, including the simplest, most actionable and effective thing you can do if you have any kind of anxiety, sadness, depression, demoralization, or trauma, how to tell if your adaptive traits have become maladaptive, and how to stop that, how parents can help their children, and his understanding of rupture and repair.

• 54:21Dan Harris?

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• 55:04Dan Harris?

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• 55:31Dan Harris?

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• 56:51Speaker 05

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• 56:57Dan Harris?

  I like that we're talking about practical stuff that people can do. We've talked about EMDR and pattern repetitive rhythmic activity. If we could stay in this vein, that would be great. I mean, I know in your book, Bruce, you talk about a couple of things that I'll throw at you right now. You can pick up whichever one you think seems most helpful. You talk about healing happening best in small moments. You talk about relational health, the practice of rupture and repair.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Dan, that's the magic. And I think the thing that's so nice about that, I'm glad you brought that up because people sometimes walk out of, you know, something like this and go, oh, man, I need to learn how to do this or that, or I have to be consistent and like, oh, I gotta do EMDR. I gotta walk every day, whatever it is. But what we know about the brain and about neural networks is that they change. These systems change with very brief, but appropriately targeted activity. And so, as I said before, human beings are very relational creatures. And when we get the nonverbal signals from another person,

• 58:07Speaker 02

  that they're truly trying to understand, that they're truly not concerned about what's on their cellphone in this moment, that they really want to hear us, that literally is a physiological burst of like positive reward. We feel pleasure in that connection and safety. But also, in that moment, we're wide open for the tiniest little nugget of cognitive or social or motor learning, right? You can absorb a ton in a very short period of time. So that doesn't mean is that like if you tell a teacher, gosh, you know, you need to really be connect, be there for your kids. And we talked to teachers about some of this stuff and they all get nervous like, oh, my God,

• 58:51Speaker 02

  I already have so much stuff to teach. And then we try to reassure them that, listen, it's a moment. It's the moment. It's the moment when Billy really feels.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  When you say that's a really good job, that you really mean it and for that three seconds, you're with Billy. Just it doesn't take that much. Just be completely present in that moment and positive things will happen. And what we've seen in our research is that the best predictor of how anybody's doing at any given moment in time is the current quality and density of their relational interactions. It's much more powerful than their history of adversity. It's much more powerful than their family history of mental illness. It's much more positive, you know, powerful than any other indicator that we track.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  And this is why we love stuff like band and theater and sport and after school programs where kids become part of a tiny little community where they're getting these moments for positive relational connection that really make a big difference. So it's really about, again, it's about biology. It's about learning that you can change the brain. You'll have more change to the brain if you have 31 minute consequences or 31 minute interactions than if you have one 30 minute interaction. And it will be much more powerful. And so it's those little conversations by the water cooler. It's the little conversations

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  when you're walking down the street and you see your neighbor on a porch. When you see the neighborhood kid running by and you take a moment and ask him about, did you make the basketball team? Just little doses of relational engagement are what really help people feel physiologically healthy. And that's actually what builds resilience as well.

• 1:00:47Dan Harris?

  Just to say, we'll drop in the show notes, listeners, an interview we did about this with Barbara Fredrickson, who's really pioneered the research into what she calls micro interactions and the power of of these small doses. And it's a practice anybody can engage in.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  Sort of indirectly along these lines, we talk about the ways in which the brain adapts to trauma, and we're largely talking about stressful things and the fear response. But are there any generalizable ways that the traumatized brain might actually develop some strengths, not just in the sort of post-traumatic wisdom category where you've learned from it, but is there anything sort of deeply rooted in the biology that would make somebody perhaps, you know, more prone to feeling and empathy and, you know, other compensatory functions?

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  That's a great question. There's been some really fascinating work done on the qualities that make somebody a good interviewer. The more you have actually been in an environment where there's relational unpredictability and, you know, grow up in an alcoholic house, and if you've been victims of episodic abuse, you are a much better interviewer of people as a social worker, a cop. You tend to be a much better observer of human behavior. I haven't looked at this carefully, but I would suspect that you're also probably a better writer and a filmmaker and artist.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Not all, but many kids who are in situations that have been traumatic have become tremendously good observers of human behavior. And now, sometimes that ends up being part of what allows them to kind of take over a class and/or, you know, drive people crazy, you know, in an organization and so forth. So you can learn a lot of maladaptive, manipulative techniques, but you can also learn those techniques can be used in a way that can help you be a good leader and be a good listener and be a good interviewer. So.

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  I think that also pertains to things we can do, which is, again, having your eyes open and understanding helps us better identify when our behaviors and reactivity and responses have developed to a point where they're not advantageous anymore to survival, and in fact, they're quite damaging. Is there a point at which we, the human, experiencing it without having necessarily undergone 10 years of therapy to sort of see our story a little more clearly? How do we see that our more sort of adaptive traits have become maladaptive and we can stop that?

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  Usually, the world tells you when you start to see like a big mismatch between what you thought was going on and what the feedback you're getting. And so when you're in school, the feedback you get is like, you're not doing well, and you're not getting invited to birthday parties, and you aren't the best kid on the basketball team, and you thought you were the best shot, and you're really not the best shot. And so you start to get a little feedback from the world. And as adults, though, it's a little bit harder. Honestly, the adult world tends to be a little bit more tolerant of these sort of variances in perception. And there are a lot of people that just make their way all the way through who continue to have a very distorted understanding of how they're coming across.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  You know, they don't recognize that people keep looking at the watch, that it's like, it's like, time to go home, go home. Finally, I'm, okay, I'm leaving, I'm turning the light, just lock the door when you leave. The people that don't learn how to read nonverbal cues, we try subtly to teach them, but some of the people are just like clueless. And I'm sure you probably have known people like that that just cannot stop a conversation, or they don't do very well with boundaries around certain topics. And if they don't get feedback when they're younger, the adult world kind of lets people go, unless it's like in a job situation where you're like, that's inappropriate now.

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  So most of the feedback I get from people that have had developmental trauma or experiences during childhood and youth.

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  They have a subjective feeling of distress in certain situations, right? They could have anxieties or, you know, they find they might have a panic attack and they may not connect it to anything in their past. So there's, there's both that subjective sensation of I feel distress, which will bring them sometimes into the mental health community and they'll ask for help. But a lot of times, I would say the vast majority of people who have trauma related kind of alterations in the way they function, don't ever see a mental health professional. And a lot of them have developed some, I mean, not that I want to be a complete, you know, I won't go to

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  politics, but think about this, a lot of people that are at work environments, whose pathological adaptive behaviors, some of which are very antisocial and, you know, they don't tell the truth, they learn how to manipulate people, they learn how to crawl over people, a lot of these people rise to positions of significant influence in organizations. And they're so unaware, self unaware, that they're basically acting on a lot of their trauma stuff in their little power games they play with people all the time. So anybody who's been in a corporate environment and learns about this, they begin to identify that. So.

• 1:06:39Dan Harris?

  Let's keep going on the theme of, you know, what can we do? You talk in your book, Bruce, about the value of controllable, predictable and moderate challenge.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Right. Yep. So that I was talking about the malleability, the plasticity of the stress response systems, that when those systems are activated in extreme ways or uncontrollable ways, the kinds we've been talking about that are traumatic, they get overactive and overly reactive. But if you have an opportunity to have stretch assignments or little challenges where you leave your comfort zone and, and you, you're able to have some control over when you do it, how you do it, the experiences are moderately challenging, what happens is over time, you actually develop resilience and it can contribute to healing if you have a

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  trauma related sensitization. But this is really kind of what.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  This is what competition does in sport. This is what performance does in the, in the performing arts. This is what you're, you know, putting together an art show for an artist is. You know, there's this controllable but stressful challenge that you go take the challenge and you grow from it. That's how we grow. And an easy way to do that, I think for a lot of people is to travel. I think traveling is one of those, you know, Anthony Bourdain talked about it all the time. It literally is resilience building to, to kind of be uncomfortable in a new place. And because it, you know, you could, there's controllability to it to a certain degree and it's moderate. But you grow, you, you grow inside. And I think that you can do that in a lot of things.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  I mean, if you get old like me, you can decide to take up tap dancing or some other thing like that. And, you know, you get better by being worse. You know, you gotta be bad at something.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  And if you're willing to be bad at something, you'll build resilience. But you've got to be willing to kind of be uncomfortable. And see that again, adult life, we've constructed adult life to protect us from discomfort. And so that means that you have to be the kind of person that has sort of a growth mindset. That I'm actually going to intentionally do something that takes more energy, more effort. You know, it's gonna make me feel uncomfortable. I'm gonna look like a fool. But if you do that, you'll keep growing. If you don't, if you just say, I'm gonna, I'm only gonna do what I'm good at. And I'm gonna do that all the time in the same way. Every Thursday night, it's gonna be the same thing.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  You know, after a while, you just, you know, you don't grow. So.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  The, the other thing I'd say, Dan, that, you know, for practical sort of stuff that helps people about. I think the simplest, most actionable, most effective thing that people can do. If they have any kind of anxiety, sadness, depression, demoralization, trauma related stuff in their history. Is to think about intentionally walking.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  In nature as much as you can. Now, if you're in an urban area, maybe you pick a park, maybe walk along the river. But the sounds and the somatosensory elements of the natural world actually do something to our bodies that is positive. And walking is one of those very easy, wonderful things you can do. And the beauty of it is you can dose it. So you can dose it. So if you can only walk for 10 minutes, take a little 10 minute walk, you know, walk, walk out of your office building, take a 10 minute walk, get some coffee, come back. You can do that three or four times a day. And you don't always have to have a

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  big walk. And to your brain, these little smaller doses are actually really, really helpful.

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  What about for children? What would your number one recommendation be there? Asking for a friend with a very anxious child?

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  No, I honestly, I think that movement is like so undervalued in our modern educational system. If any way that you can get the educators in that child's life to begin to build in sensory regulatory breaks that allow the child, if they are a mover, you know, some kids are not movers. Some kids like to regulate in smaller spaces and do their art or, or, you know, use some other thing. But if the child's a mover, walking, dancing, music, both performing music and listening to music, all of that stuff appropriately dosed can really help. The problem that with, a lot of schools will say, oh, we do music, or we do resport,

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  or we do whatever. What you find is they make you sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, an hour of moving, as opposed to sit for 20 minutes, move for five minutes, sit for 15 minutes, move for five minutes. And it's that dosing that really helps somebody stay regulated during the day.

• 1:11:53Speaker 03

  So if a child says their favorite part of school is recess, that's not necessarily because they just want to play and don't want to learn, like it's actually serving a therapeutic purpose?

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Two really important purposes. One is that the two big ways that human beings regulate is by moving and, you know, these somatosensory things. And the other one is by connecting, by being with your buds, with, with, with other people. And so

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  Those are both really healthy things. I mean, the feedback, you know, when kids love recess, I'm like, that's a healthy kid. That's gonna be, you know, that's what I love. I love recess.

• 1:12:30Dan Harris?

  What about if this kid, when you ask him what he wants to do when he grows up, says criminal? Is that healthy?

• 1:12:37Speaker 03

  That's not the same friend.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Depends on the, depends on the kind of criminal.

• 1:12:42Dan Harris?

  I want to go back to a phrase that I mentioned before, and it's in your book, Rupture and Repair. Is, what does that mean? And is that something we can work on training?

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Well, you can work on recognizing it, and you can work on the repair part. The rupture part, here's the, the idea here. And remember how I mentioned that you can have these moments when you're like fully present with somebody and they feel it, you feel it. But the truth is, you can't stay there. You just, it's impossible. And so you disconnect. So even if you have a baby and you love your baby and you're gazing at them, you're the most wonderful thing in the world, and you're staring at the baby, the baby looks at you for a while, and then that's like it gets too emotionally, it gets too intense. And so what does the baby do? They close their eyes, they turn away. They literally will turn away from you. But there's a rhythm to it. Then they want to come back and have another gaze. And then they turn away. And there's

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  this natural relational rhythm to that breaking and, and sort of connection and then reconnection. And so that, the first thing is that I, I think it's important, we all recognize that the nature of human connection, probably should, we should call it human disconnection. Because we spend more time trying to repair and reconnect than we, than we do in connection. I mean, think about the people you know the most and you love the most, right? You've known them for years and years and years, and you may live with them, and you may be married to them. And think about how often you say, that's not what I meant. This is what I was trying to say.

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  And, and that's if you're still trying. And so that's, it's very hard to stay in connection. But people need to hear that's okay. That's fine. Human beings are meant to connect and reconnect. And the beauty is that that pattern I talked about earlier about moderate, controllable doses of stress. That's the rhythm that you create over the day if you're with somebody that you're having that positive rupture and repair with, right? You'll sit down, you'll have a, you'll kind of connect about something and then something will disrupt it. Phone call, work, kid, argument, whatever.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  Then you come back in, reconnect. We're good. Just a little thing, we're good, we're fine, sorry. And then, you know, go away. Come back, go away, come back. And the thing is, the connection gets stronger with the repetitions. It doesn't get stronger with staying in connection. It's like, you think about the difference between playing the piano. If you play the piano, it makes music if you tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. If you just put your finger down and tapped it, it's not like an organ where it keeps making noise, stops making noise. It stops making noise after you just, that's what relationships are like.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  Relationships are like a piano, they're not like, not like an organ.

• 1:15:49Speaker 03

  But even though we are relational by nature, that doesn't necessarily mean we know how to be connected and that is the default, right? If we're talking about the small doses or the rupture and repair, it's assuming that there's a baseline understanding of how to connect. And I guess the question would be, how do we learn that? Especially if you come from a chaotic home where connection is unsafe, feels unsafe, I should say.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Perfect, great question. So the key thing you're pointing out Bianca is that that whole connection and reconnecting, everybody's working from their own worldview. And so if you grew up in an environment, let's say you had like great ideal parents, present, attentive, attuned, did everything for you when you're little and your brain builds this catalog and goes, oh, human beings are awesome. And now I fall in love with some human being and, you know, this tone of voice means I love you and this kind of form of touch means this and all that other stuff. And that should be the like, you think that that's what they are understanding, but they've come from a completely different world. Where when somebody gets physically close to me, they're just as likely to hit me as they are to hug me.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  So I'm like, I'm not really comfortable with that physical proximity unless I initiate it and I'm in control of it. And the minute it has you raise your voice a little bit out of frustration, even out of excitement, that's like, that's too reminiscent of. And so I'm backing out. And so the key is you gotta eat, but this is kind of where what happened to you is important in a relationship. So if you realize that your partner is coming from a background where, wow. Physical intimacy was like scary at times for this person. So then you don't just come up behind them and give them a hug of affection all the time because you're expecting, oh, this is kind of cute. I mean, I'm loving and they may go, what the?

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  You know, what are you doing? And you're like, I'm just trying to be affectionate. What's wrong with you? And then it starts off in a little rupture and because you don't understand each other. So your point, you're absolutely right. This is where you kind of, if you know these things. You can kind of sit down and go, you know. Let's talk about this. You know, I come from a background where. You know, if you used your hands in communication, that was appropriate. I mean, I, I'll never forget this story. And this is sort of a tangent, but. I was first learning about these concepts and I had a, I grew up in North Dakota. Lot of Lutheran Norwegians in North Dakota. They are not very emotionally expressive at all.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  And in fact, I had a friend, I probably said like 80 words to him his whole senior year, still one of my best friends. We didn't expect any words. We, you know, we just, he just nodded every once in a while. Things were good. All right. So he goes away to college, falls in love with a woman from New York who's Italian. And he goes to their house for Thanksgiving.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  And you can imagine Italian Thanksgiving, hands and raised voices. I went to his house once when I was a senior in high school. Eight brothers and sisters around the table. Nobody said anything at the dinner, nothing. I, all I heard was clinking, cutting. And I, I was so nervous, I didn't even want to ask to pass the butter or anything for this baked potato. That was like, ugh, so I, I ate this baked potato with nothing on it. Just because I didn't want to be the only one that talked anyway. So he goes to that Thanksgiving, comes back, they're sitting in front of me. He's here, she's there. And I said, how was, how was the break? And he got pale and went, oh my God.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  And she goes, oh, it was great. And, and he said, oh, the fighting. She said, fighting? What fighting? What are you talking about fighting? What fight did you have? I didn't see one fight.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  And so I realized, wow, that's a whole different, two different worldviews about the same thing. But that's to your point. I mean, that's, if you don't kind of get to know somebody, then you're a lot of times making well-intended mistakes about what's funny or what isn't funny. Or what's an acceptable form of touch and what isn't.

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  And then that requires really an interest in what happened to you. Because in that kind of unsafe place, if you ask the question, what's wrong with you, you only retreat more.

• 1:20:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And that's exactly right. And that's what happens, Bianca, you know?

• 1:20:28Dan Harris?

  Are you talking to Dr. Bruce or you're talking to me now, Bianca?

• 1:20:31Speaker 03

  I don't know you.

• 1:20:37Dan Harris?

  Your thing about North Dakota reminded me, Bianca and our son and I, we love Parks and Rec, the TV show. And there's a character, Ron Swanson, who's this like manly man and doesn't like talking about his emotions. And he has this whole spiel about how he worked with a guy for years and they never even exchanged names. And he says, best friend I ever had. We still never talk sometimes.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  I have to, I laugh because my, my daughter is the tease me that I'm like Ron Swanson.

• 1:21:04Dan Harris?

  There's another great scene with him where he's in with a doctor and the doctor says to Ron, do you have any history of mental illness in the family? And he says, I have an uncle who does yoga.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  That's pretty funny. Sounds like my dad.

• 1:21:23Dan Harris?

  Before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the name of your book and any other, you know, resources you've put out into the world, website, anything?

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  The name of the book is What Happened to You?, written with Oprah Winfrey. And there's another book that's kind of maybe helpful called The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog that I wrote with Maya Salavitz. They both are kind of at the voice of that people in the general audience would would be able to read without too much trouble. So those are good starting places.

• 1:21:53Dan Harris?

  Do you have a website?

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do. If you just go to bdperry.com, there are some links to articles and other things.

• 1:22:07Dan Harris?

  Okay, well, we'll put a link to that in the show notes for this episode. Dr. Perry, a total pleasure. Thank you for doing this. Bianca, great job. Thank you for doing this.

• 1:22:16Speaker 03

  Thank you for making it happen.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  My pleasure. And thanks for having me and keep up the good work.

• 1:22:22Dan Harris?

  Likewise.

• 1:22:32Dan Harris?

  Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before I let you go here. Starting Sunday, July 12, at 4:00 PM Eastern, the Summer Sunday Live Series premieres. Join legendary teacher Sharon Salzberg for an eight-week deep dive into the Buddha's Cookbook for Human Happiness: The Eightfold Path. You'll experience live meditation and Q and A only

• 1:23:13Dan Harris?

  on the 10% with Dan Harris app. Go to danharris.com to start your free trial today.

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