Singing in the New Year with Carolyn Kendrick and Each Machine

There's one last present at the toe of our stocking, and it's a new album by producer Carolyn Kendrick. We'll be back with a regular episode next week, but for now, come listen to some music, and join us for a conversation about making art and community in uncertain times, and the new year's dreams that will sustain us in 2025. Find Carolyn's songs, record, website, zine, and more here:https://linktr.ee/carolynkendrick Support You're Wrong About:Bonus Episodes on PatreonBuy cute merchWhere else to find us:Sarah's other show, You Are GoodLinks:https://linktr.ee/carolynkendrickhttp://patreon.com/yourewrongabouthttps://www.teepublic.com/stores/youre-wrong-abouthttps://www.paypal.com/paypalme/yourewrongaboutpodhttps://www.podpage.com/you-are-good Support the show Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:10Sarah Marshall?

  Welcome to You're Wrong About. I'm Sarah Marshall and today we just have a little New Year's Day present for you. And with me today is our beloved producer Carolyn Kendrick. Carolyn, hello.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Hello, Sarah. It's so lovely to be here. It's been a moment.

• 0:28Sarah Marshall?

  Well, you're always here.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 0:30Sarah Marshall?

  But now we get to hear your beautiful voice as well.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  I'm like the Phantom of the Opera.

• 0:36Sarah Marshall?

  You're always dropping chandeliers.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Right. I'm always behind the scenes waiting to sing and kidnap you or whatever.

• 0:45Sarah Marshall?

  Just giving really good music lessons to someone who can't even see you.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 0:50Sarah Marshall?

  Would that be hard? Because you do, you do music lessons. You've done a lot of music lessons in your life. Is, can you really teach singing to someone who can't even see you or know who you are?

• 0:59Speaker 01

  You know, I actually think that that might be easier in some ways. I think that I would rather teach in a Phantom of the Opera like situation than teach on Zoom.

• 1:09Sarah Marshall?

  Well, yeah, yeah, that does make sense.

• 1:14Sarah Marshall?

  Carolyn, it's, we're, we're having this conversation close to Christmas. People are going to be hearing this New Year's Day. And I mean, we're kind of, I think, in the middle of that holiday, just sort of, there is no time. There is, like, time is both forever and nothing. And the sense of the past year is just kind of, I don't know, it's, it's hard to compute. I think it probably still will be at New Year's. But I mean, yeah, I, what a year.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  This has been quite a year. I'm like so glad that we're talking right now and having like a little bit of a New Year's.

• 1:51Sarah Marshall?

  Moment.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  A New Year's moment, a bit of a ritual, if you will, because I'm like famously somebody who really struggles with Christmas, but I love New Year's. Like, New Year's is my favorite holiday by far. And I find a lot of fondness in having like a bit of a moment to kind of reflect and, yeah, just like honor the time that we've spent, not just with each other, you and I, Sarah Marshall, but also just with the audience. And I feel so, so lucky that we've gotten to cover so much ground this year.

• 2:26Sarah Marshall?

  I do too. And I feel like it is, it's such a, speaking of just rituals and magic, it's a very magic thing to be able to sort of, you know, for me to speak. I think of it as like, I'm the sheep and you're the, you're looming the wool into a tapestry. And I don't, just the, the fact of like, being able to talk to people and to do it in a way where it feels like, I mean, I feel like we have been part of conversations that we have no memory of having, and yet we've said something helpful inside of them, and we don't even know that we did it. Yeah, there's something astounding about that.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  I, I was reflecting recently on how, how much these, you know, working on You're Wrong About has influenced not just my, my pattern and way of thinking, but also just like how lucky I am to have all of these conversations like in my bones. And yeah, like sometimes I listen to older episodes and I'm like, wow, I really have no memory of that, just because so much happens in the day. And it's kind of astounding the amount of media, not just you and I, but like any average American goes through, just like in the course of our lives. And I think, you know, especially comparing that to like, I don't know, Joe March or something like that, you know, like, I just think about the sheer amount of information that we process

• 3:43Speaker 01

  every day. And I feel really lucky that I've gotten to just like, have these conversations kind of seep into my bones a little bit with all these amazing guests and with you.

• 3:54Sarah Marshall?

  Ah, it also feels like this is a time when it's extremely overwhelming to engage with any media or information at all, at least for me. And I, we have, I, you know, a lot of neurodivergent listeners, because those are the, the ideal listener, I would think. And I think that they, like, some of us are having that problem. When I was growing up, you know, when most of us were growing up, who aren't extremely young, we were like, we remember what it felt like to like, want more media than you had access to, you know, or you would like, want to rent a movie. And you'd be like, I can't wait until I can rent that movie. But I don't have it now. And so the moment came when we had access to more stuff than

• 4:35Sarah Marshall?

  we could process or even know how to want past a certain point. And so I feel like one of the questions in media today is like, because you know, it's like podcasts are going to video and short form video has taken over. And there's a sort of feeling to me of like that thing when you're in a restaurant and a lot of different tables have started talking louder and louder because of it's getting louder. And then suddenly everyone's shouting and you're like, everyone's shouting.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 5:04Sarah Marshall?

  And that's what it kind of feels like just in media and online. And I feel like this is a moment of people are getting exhausted. We have to really pick what we want to talk about and which conversations are going to enable people to process all the other information that's coming at them. And I feel like, I don't know, just the fact that it's possible still to make a show that feels like it makes learning something that is still fun and still feels empowering, rather than just more material being thrown at your brain over and over and reminds you that kind of as a critical thinker, you get to be active in all this and it matters how you respond to things. It feels, yeah, just

• 5:49Sarah Marshall?

  incredibly lucky.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're in this interesting situation now where we've got a bit of the cheesecake factory effect. You know, there's more things on the menu than you can possibly process. And, and yeah, also more, more people in the, in the dining area than you can hear at once.

• 6:09Sarah Marshall?

  And the acoustics are so bad.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Right. Why are the ceilings so tall? Yeah, space does not come to us naturally. We have to carve out space for ourself and we have to carve out silence for ourself.

• 6:21Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  And it's very hard to do because nothing is encouraging it, you know?

• 6:26Sarah Marshall?

  Yes. It, yeah, it, it was capitalism all along. And it is just a moment when it feels important to sort of find to whatever extent possible, the ability to sort of slow down in your own life and say like, With the, you know, with the little bit of time that I have, how can I actually create a little bit of peace for myself? Because it also feels like, because the more noise there is, it can often feel like it's your job to keep up with it, or to keep processing the noise, or the feeling that something bad will happen if you don't hear it. Learning to step away from that a little bit. And I wonder about, I mean, Carolyn, what, what has brought you some peace this past year? What are you looking forward to in this, this new year?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. One of my favorite things about my day is my, my morning routine, which I am lucky enough to be pretty selfishly adherent to, because I don't really have other people that I need to take care of.

• 7:25Sarah Marshall?

  Love it.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Like, I know that this might eventually change, but yeah, like, I don't, I don't have to be a caretaker to anybody. So this, the morning, during the mornings, I get to wake up, I get to make my coffee. I have been reading a lot of poetry this year. Right now, I'm reading Billy Collins. I wake up, I read poetry for a little while, I journal for at least four or five pages. I've gone through a lot of journals this year. And then I, I pull tarot cards every morning.

• 7:51Sarah Marshall?

  Hmm. That's so great. What is, are, do you have like some favorite cards? Like, when they turn up, you're just like, heck yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. My favorite, my favorite cards that I love to see, well, the one that I, I, well, so part of this is that I'm doing, I'm planning on doing this as sort of like a project where I, I write down what cards I get every day. And at the end of the year, I'm planning on like typing up all my journals and like putting into a spreadsheet what, uh, what cards I've pulled, because I want to see which cards I've pulled statistically most often. Which is like, uh, not a very romantic approach to a, to mysticism, but it's what I'm doing.

• 8:31Sarah Marshall?

  Some of us find statistics very romantic.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yes. And I am one of those people.

• 8:36Sarah Marshall?

  It's like a temperature blanket, but one that isn't too depressing to make, which that would be.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:42Sarah Marshall?

  To me.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So I pull the Knight of Wands fairly often. Like, I would say I pull it like quite a lot. And so therefore, I hold fondness for it. And then I also, I really love the Star. I think the Star is probably one of my favorites. The Star, the Tower, and the Devil and the Empress are kind of my, my go-tos.

• 9:05Sarah Marshall?

  Is the Star the one where it's like a naked lady pouring out some water?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she's like pouring, yeah, it's like, it's like a purification card. And in some sense, it also has to do with hope and like what your, what your guiding light is through this world. And, you know, you're never going to be close to the Star, but the Star is going to be with you your entire life. You know, you can always use it as a goalpost, a guidepost. But it's not something you can be like intimate with. It's something that you can learn from. So yeah, I really, I really love that card. And then I love the Tower card, which is a controversial card, actually.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Because it's sort of like the chaos card. Like, it's, yeah, it's all about like destruction and being out of control and, you know, surprise and, and, you know, things, things coming to you in life that you were not necessarily expecting. But I also find that comforting because like, you know, with every destruction comes a creation or a chance to recreate. And, yeah, and I feel like this year, well, I feel like last year was really like I was pulling the Tower constantly. And then this year has been my, my, my year to, to think about creation in the face of destruction a little bit.

• 10:20Sarah Marshall?

  I'm gonna quote from Rent, "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation."

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yes. That was a very, a very deeply influential lyric to me as a, as a young teen. I would say that that is like a Cheesy as it may be, like, I freaking love Rent.

• 10:38Sarah Marshall?

  And yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is like my, one of my, my founding philosophies of life.

• 10:43Sarah Marshall?

  I feel like every adult who loves Rent, like, sort of caveats it, at least in mixed company, and is like, now I know it's cheesy, but.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:51Sarah Marshall?

  But I was like, I was driving home from Seattle recently and I decided to put on the Rent soundtrack. And I was just like, man, I still believe.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:01Sarah Marshall?

  The core messages of Rent.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  La vie boam.

• 11:04Sarah Marshall?

  La vie boam, to riding your bike midday, past the three-piece suits, to fruits, to no absolutes, and no day but today, which again, is like, yeah, it's simple, but like, it's true.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Well, I was gonna ask you, like, what are some things that you have found peace in this year?

• 11:22Sarah Marshall?

  It's, I mean, this has been such a big gardening year for me, and I have loved it so much, and in ways that I didn't anticipate. And it's also been, yeah, I feel like I've been following your, your influences as sort of like, because I've always known you as somebody who clearly is like finding peace in projects, or, you know, finding comfort in projects, finding, finding good stuff in there. Yeah, I've had some, like, really good times in the kitchen this year, too, and I think just kind of creating those spaces in my house, which again, it's like a privilege to have fun in the kitchen, because I'm the only person I'm cooking for. Right? But yeah, but all that's to say that like, as a lone person, like, playing around in there,

• 12:05Sarah Marshall?

  I'm having a really great time. And something I brought up a lot to my therapist this year is the scene in Runaway Bride where Julia Roberts realizes that she doesn't know how she likes her eggs, and that she just like gets eggs the way the like, last guy she was gonna marry gets them. So like, when she was with Christopher Maloney, she was eating egg white omelets or whatever. And so there, like, there's a scene where she just like orders every type of egg and tries them all and figures out the kind of eggs she likes, which is eggs Florentine, which is great, because that's a weird egg.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:41Sarah Marshall?

  And I don't know, just like gardening and cooking and like having a hobby to an extent. Or just like drawing a picture, which you know, I got very into drawing the last couple of years because I kept showing you my Sex and the City drawings. It feels as an adult who has been in sort of a try hard place for a lot of life, like very surprising and great to just be like, I'm going to do this little craft because I would like to. And then, you know, there's a part of your brain that will make you feel like it's a waste of time. But that part gets less loud as you continue generally. And what it also turns out, what also turns out to be the case, and you can trick yourself by saying

• 13:22Sarah Marshall?

  it's productive, is that like each time you do something you like, you learn more about what you like and who you actually are. Yeah, I love that.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  I was talking with somebody who I'm very close to recently about how it feels really good to be at a place where I have the muscle within myself to be able to determine what I like. And like I was reflecting on being in high school and like just trying things. And I was like, I can't actually tell if I like this or if it's just something that is exciting or if it's like novelty. And I feel like I'm just now getting to a place in my somatic experience where I can hear my body being like, you like this or you don't like this, or like this makes you uncomfortable, or this is giving you red flags, or this is giving green flags, or this is like where you, like it feels really, really nice to be getting to a place where I can kind of trust that and hone in on it a little bit more.

• 14:13Sarah Marshall?

  So great.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like this year, I'm so glad that we're having this conversation. This year's just been so monumental for so many reasons. You know, obviously the election has been like incredibly disorienting, not just, not just the actual results, but you know, the lead up and.

• 14:31Sarah Marshall?

  The whole thing, the whole road show.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Thing. And there's so much violence in the world and like, you know, war persists. And I'm, you know, very worried about Palestine and all of these, all of these issues I still want to be very plugged into. But it's interesting, like developing these like somatic sensibilities where I'm like trying to be able to like listen. Into my body, but not turn away from things that feel bad just because they feel bad. You know what I mean? Like, trying to figure out what is the line between how can I be involved in my community? How can I be like an active participant in the wellbeing and lives of the people who I love around me and into strangers? But then also listening to myself when I'm like, I need a break. I need to figure out how to do this in a

• 15:18Speaker 01

  sustainable way. I need to figure out how to do this so that I don't fully burn out in a world where it is expected for you to burn out constantly. And so, so yeah, like having these little breaks and pulling my tarot cards and talking with you and chit chatting and being there for my friends and trying to make art. Like, I feel like it's all, it's all interconnected and all, all I, sorry, I feel like I'm talking a lot. Um, I feel like maybe, sorry to be like up on my soapbox about all of this, but you

• 15:47Sarah Marshall?

  know. This is what podcasts are for.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:51Sarah Marshall?

  But that is, but I love it. Yeah, go on.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Making art and keeping our community safer are intrinsically related. And I feel lucky to be at a point where next year I can continue to explore that within the communities that I'm part of, including the You're Wrong About community.

• 16:10Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, this is a community with a lot of really, really lovely people inside of it. And what you're saying, just it does feel like what's going to be necessary for survival going into another Trump administration, you know, and just this, it, I don't know. And like, I don't know how accurate this, this really is, or if it's just something that's been working for me. But I feel like there's that saying that they have in Al-Anon of like, don't go to the hardware store for groceries, which I actually think is not the best saying because a lot of hardware stores sell candy and soda.

• 16:46Sarah Marshall?

  And but you know what that means basically is that like if you have parents who just can't meet your emotional needs, then like, you know, don't be surprised if you ask them and they don't do it, which it's not, you can't just be told that you have to keep showing up faithfully at the hardware store for many years. My feeling, I think this time around politically is like, I cannot be angry at the people who voted for this candidate again, because if I'm angry at them, then it's like, well, I can be angry. I can be angry at, I mean, I can and will be angry. But the idea of like, if I sort of stay in a place of outrage about like, how could you do

• 17:27Sarah Marshall?

  this? Why aren't you different? Why don't you have groceries? Then it's like, I'm giving them the same power that a person like gives parents who can't love them the way they need, where it's like, I just really want you to be different. And it's like, well, then you're holding yourself hostage, waiting for someone to change who can't ultimately. And it's the, I don't know. And I don't know, you know, I feel like it's possible to believe in people changing without holding your breath for them to do it and without feeling like you can't move forward and the things that you're working on and the work that you're doing to try and make the world better. If you're just sort of still in a place of frustration about them and I, and you know,

• 18:11Sarah Marshall?

  and you can't control what feelings you have. But I think it's, I don't know, that, that waiting around for somebody to change so that they can see you as human thing feels like it's probably familiar to a lot of people from a familial level. And that maybe, you know, what's great is that we're all already traumatized and we can use that information to deal with the large scale political trauma happening now. Ah.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  What a silver lining.

• 18:45Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, I don't know if that's anything.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  I think, I think it is. Like, I think, like, in the same way that, like, you can look at the microcosmic and the macrocosmic, and they have, like, similarities, you know, you can look at the reflections of your interpersonal lives, like, will be reflected in, in our, in our grand scale, political lives.

• 19:03Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  That's also something that I think is, at least for me, different with this Trump administration versus the last one, was that the, the last one, like, I was, like, I, I think I potentially over expended my energy on outrage.

• 19:17Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  I only had so much energy, and then I don't, I don't think, I don't think I actually saved energy for being helpful. Like, I think, I think we all have pretty, like, sober eyes about the situation, and we are at a point where, or at least I feel like many people have, um, you know, kind of clear eyes about what's needed and what's next, and like, the severity of the situation. And I think we're all going like, okay, how do we expend energy in a, in a for real way? Like, how do we, how do we expend energy where it's like, we hold the feelings that we're having, and like, because you can't just, like, get rid of them, obviously. You can't just, like, expel anger from your body, like, at will. We're like,

• 20:00Speaker 01

  how do, how do I, how do I pace myself? How do I connect? How do I recharge? How do I, how do I create, like, an ecosystem of wellness within myself and within my community so that I can actually be helpful?

• 20:14Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Actually, like, organize, and actually go find the people who have been organizing for a really long time, and are, who are, are ready to, to see us at the door, you know?

• 20:25Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, right, yeah. And also the thing of, like, anything that you're fired up about, it's like, yeah, there's such a good chance that there are people in your community, either geographically, or just in terms of, you know, the culture that you are inside of, whether that's spread out online or outside your door or not. But that there are people who are already doing, you know, the work that you're passionate about, and that you can learn from as well. And just this, you know, I think as Americans, we're taught, like, if you want to make change, then like, do it all by yourself, and on a massive scale. And it's like, no, we actually just need to all be working on a small scale together.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:02Sarah Marshall?

  So, and no one gets to take home all the glory, and nobody gets to take home all the blame, and... Yeah. And just right. And outrage feels like when you're trying to build a fire and you got like some newspaper going and it burns really bright for like one second.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  And then you're freezing.

• 21:20Sarah Marshall?

  And then you're freezing and you need a snack and.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  And then the hardware store is closed and you can't.

• 21:25Sarah Marshall?

  And the hardware store is closed and you can't get your salad.

• 21:32Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah, yeah. And well, Carolyn, you have a new album and I'm very excited that we get to share a little bit of it with our listeners today and give it to them as a New Year's surprise. And could you, could you tell us just a little bit about, well, first the album, actually, that you've put out and then about the song you're going to share with us?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I'm so honored that you asked and we're up for, you know, talking about this a little bit. My new record is called Each Machine and I think it will be of interest to your wrong about listeners because it is deeply inspired by the work that you and I have done together over the years, but especially around a lot of the Satanic Panic work that has been done.

• 22:19Sarah Marshall?

  And you and I have ventured pretty deeply into the Satanic Panic over the years.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  That's true. We have. And for those of us who haven't met yet, like I am, I am a musician. That is, you know, what I grew up doing.

• 22:37Sarah Marshall?

  Kind of the, the most thing about you. When I first met you, you were just kind of like going around the house beautifully singing to yourself. And I was like, I feel like they shouldn't be free.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  That's really nice. So I feel very lucky that I've gotten to like expand my creative life into the podcasting realm. But, you know, like this year, it, it just made sense for me to kind of, you know, get back into, to putting some music out. And so I decided to make an album of folk songs that are reimagined. And most of the folk songs have to do with the devil and with allegory and with femininity and with like the political reality of being a woman in this country and on this planet. You know, like normally, like when I'm like doing my songwriting stuff, which is like often, like, you know, I write, you know, love songs and heartbreak songs and.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Stuff like that, but this, this time it, it just felt like because there's so much going on politically and personally that I needed like a little bit more. Um, I wanted to kind of get into some different subject matter. So anyways, I think today I was gonna share this song that, uh, I wrote the music to it, but the, the lyrics are a poem by David Keeg and it's called A Perfect World.

• 24:02Sarah Marshall?

  I'm so excited to get to share it with everybody here. And Carolyn, where can people get your album each machine?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you can, if you want, um, physical copies, uh, you can, oh, and I guess the other thing is that like I, I wrote a zine of essays to go along with the record. If you go to Bandcamp, you can order like the physical vinyl or a CD and that comes with a zine. And, um, if you want to stream it on the internet, it's on Spotify, it's on Apple Music, it's on Tidal, you know, on all of the places that you listen to music.

• 24:35Sarah Marshall?

  Wherever good music is. Like so much of the show has been about just like, what a promising musician who added up in a terrible contract, like the chicks and sort of how the industry chews you up and spits you out. And I feel like we do so much fame studies, uh, on this show that it can run the risk of being like, well, why bother? I wonder just from your perspective as a musician, saying to yourself, you know, it's time to make an album now. And doing that, I mean, what is your advice to anybody who's like, I can't conceive of making any of the dozens of choices that gets a person from A to B?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  I think for me, like the last few years have been like a pretty serious reckoning with why I make art in the first place. And, you know, like the, the music industry itself is like very much not set up to favor the artist.

• 25:26Sarah Marshall?

  Set up to favor Kendall Roy.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly. Yeah. Um, and if you were, if you are listening, you already know all of the, um, the financial realities of being an artist. But I will say that like for me, I realized that not making art and not putting out art in a, a communally accessible way was making my life worse. And my need to self express and my need to share. And also like the music that I make is very much like rooted in community. Like I come from a tradition of music that is very much centered around playing songs around campfires and sharing. Source recordings of like old fiddlers that you love and things like that. And so I feel compelled

• 26:09Speaker 01

  to be able to to contribute to to that output. And I think there's a million ways to make music and make art and put it out there. And it can be, I think I also have had a had to like kind of decouple my desire to like ma- not even like make money, but like be quote unquote, successful within the music industry. Like I really, I had to kind of recenter being like, I am making music and putting music out because it is like the primary lens of my life. It's the primary way in which I connect with other people and that is my main goal and value in life. And everything else is kind of bonus. Like if people listen to it, amazing. If people

• 26:49Speaker 01

  don't listen to it, I still have to put it out. You know, like I, I, I hope people listen, not because I want them to care about like me specifically, but because these songs are like really beautiful folk songs that have like pretty, pretty deep roots in American history. And I hope that that's something that people are compelled by. But also, you know, a bunch of people are going to listen to it and not like it. And that's also cool. So.

• 27:14Sarah Marshall?

  You know, I think that if you like this show already, you're not allowed to not like it. So, sorry.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  But you know, like it's if if people are in the mood to make art, like there's a million ways to make art in like a, in like a, an economical way. And I think it's more important to think about like why you're making the art that you're making. And like, everything else can be figured out, you know?

• 27:38Sarah Marshall?

  I think something that has happened in culture in the last few years is that, and of course, I'm in a bubble, but it's a big bubble, is that more people than ever in one way or another are making content for a living. And media has become content and art has become content and like your personal like vlog of your life and like by extension, your life as well can also become content. And content is not art in that it is defined, art is defined by the desires of the artist. And of course, not everything can be art. Not everything should be art, but it's nice to have it in a functioning society. And content is defined by the needs or the anticipated needs of the audience. And what I feel like has happened is this sort of like creep of content into.

• 28:22Sarah Marshall?

  How we approach everything so that now if you're trying to make art, even if you're just like a person in your room, I think the way that our sense of kind of what makes you employable, what it takes to, you know, have like a successful baby who gets enough likes on Instagram to, you know, make you feel like your baby is batting high enough or whatever. It's like, I think that the media landscape makes it hard to not follow along with what you see working for people in the broadest sense and just, you know, it makes it hard to not think of what you want to do in terms of what people would think of it, or think of whatever thought you are having in your head in terms

• 29:07Sarah Marshall?

  of what people would say about it if you posted it on social media. And I, yeah, I think that it's a really great time to just be like, I don't know why I want to do this weird little thing I want to do, but I'm doing it. I'm making a potato print.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I feel like we shouldn't be too judgmental about our desires. That's the other thing that I think I've really thought about a lot this year is like, if desire is inspired within you, like, I think it's, I think it's worth going for, you know?

• 29:36Sarah Marshall?

  Yeah. There it is. That's it.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  I dreamt I saw the angels

• 30:35Speaker 02

  The angels I did see But they could not be angels

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Because they talked to me

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Because they talked to me

• 31:15Speaker 02

  I dreamt I saw the devil

• 31:19Speaker 02

  The devil I did see And I know it was the devil The devil is in me

• 31:33Speaker 02

  The devil lives in me

• 31:37Speaker 02

  The devil is in me

• 31:42Speaker 02

  The devil is in me

• 31:46Speaker 02

  The devil is me

• 31:50Speaker 02

  The devil is me