Pod Insights You're Dead to Me Hernán Cortés and Malintzin (Radio Edit) About this episode Greg Jenner is joined in 16th-Century Mexico by Dr Amy Fuller and comedian Jen Brister to learn about Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés and his translator Malintzin.
In 1521, the powerful Aztec empire was brutally conquered by the Spanish, led by the ambitious and fanatical Hernán Cortés. After a falling-out with his boss in Cuba, Cortés disobeyed orders and led an expedition party into Mexico. He was helped in his conquest by local peoples who bore a grudge against the Aztecs, chief amongst them the woman who became his translator: Malintzin. A skilled linguist, Malintzin was given to Cortés upon his arrival in Mexico, but after gaining her freedom was central to Cortés’s success. The two even had a son together.
This episode tells the story of Cortés and Malintzin before, during and after the conquest, exploring how an Indigenous woman came to translate for a conquistador. From Malintzin’s murky childhood to Cortés’s desperate attempts to impress the king of Spain, via the rumours that he killed his first wife and the complicated politics of Mexico, we examine these two intertwined lives.
This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.
Hosted by: Greg Jenner
Research by: Aida Abbashar
Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner
Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner
Audio Producer: Steve Hankey
Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands
Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse
Executive Editor: James Cook
Transcript 5,112 words · 13 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:16 Greg Jenner? Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today, we are sharpening our language skills and sailing across the Atlantic to 16th century Mexico to learn all about the conquistador Hernán Cortés and his indigenous translator Malintzin. And to help us understand this pair, we have a pair of very special guests. In history corner, she's senior lecturer in the history of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University. Her research focuses on early modern Spain and Mexico, specifically religion, identity and empire. It's Dr Amy Fuller. Welcome, Amy. Thanks for having me. Delighted to have you here. And in comedy corner, she's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer you'll have seen on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week,
2:01 Greg Jenner? Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read or listened to her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, I love the audiobook, or her podcast, WTB, which I think is short for a slightly ruder title. And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Emma of Normandy, an absolute classic. It's Jen Brister. Welcome, Jen.
2:18 Speaker 05 Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure.
2:20 Greg Jenner? We had a lot of fun last time in medieval England, trying to remember that everyone was called Elfgivu.
2:26 Speaker 05 Oh, my God, what a name, Elfgivu. And not only that, not understand or not having any knowledge about my own history, like, that is quite something. And now I'm half, I'm half English and I'm half Spanish. So what I've realised is, in the last episode, I knew nothing about English history. And today, it'll be proven I know nothing about Spanish history.
2:47 Greg Jenner? And Mexican history?
2:48 Speaker 05 Mexican history, even less.
2:50 Greg Jenner? Okay, so what do you know?
2:57 Greg Jenner? This is the So What Do You Know?, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm guessing you have heard the name Cortez, the conquistador. He's appeared in all kinds of TV shows and films, most notably as the big baddie in the DreamWorks animation, The Road to El Dorado. But unless you are Mexican or maybe American, I suspect Malintzin. I'd imagine she's perhaps a lot less familiar as a name. She's the subject of several Spanish language plays, operas and books, and appears in some famous murals. One painted by Diego Rivera in Mexico City, he was the husband of Frida Kahlo.
3:31 Speaker 05 Oh, yes, I do know who he is. Look at me, one point already. Well done.
3:36 Greg Jenner? But how have their reputations changed over time? And what exactly is Motecumua's revenge? Let's find out. We'll start with Cortez, purely because he happened to be born first. So, Amy, who was he? Is he an aristocrat? You know, when he's born, is he rich?
3:51 Speaker 06 He was born in 1485 in Medellín, which is in Extremadura in Spain. So he was a hidalgo. He was petty nobility, we'd probably call him, not very rich. We don't know a massive amount about him, to be honest. We think he probably had some legal training. Fairly well educated, I'd say.
4:12 Greg Jenner? But in 1492, Hernán Cortez is seven years old. Columbus sails on behalf of the Spanish king and queen in search of India and bumps into what's called "the new world", inverted commas. It's obviously not new to the people who live there. So what makes Hernán Cortez decide he wants to follow in Columbus's wake? Because 10, 12 years later, he's on a ship.
4:31 Speaker 06 Yeah, he's off to seek his fortune in the new world. He arrives in fifteen oh four, so he's nineteen. And he goes off to a place called Hispaniola, which is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic. At that point, that's the base of operations in what they called the Indies.
4:49 Speaker 05 And the indigenous people that lived in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic, would they have had any sort of relation to the Incas or like Mexico's not that far away?
5:01 Speaker 06 Yeah.
5:01 Speaker 05 Were they more similar to?
5:03 Speaker 06 They had smaller towns, so they you don't find the kind of big cities with the pyramids and things like that in the Caribbean. But you do see decent sized kind of towns. But they were supposed to go and convert them to Christianity. And therefore they shouldn't have been allowed to enslave them. But they just kind of enslaved them instead.
5:26 Speaker 05 It happens. You pop out there to talk about Jesus Christ and before you know it, you've got, you know, hundred thousands of slaves.
5:33 Greg Jenner? Yes. We should probably turn to Malintzin. In fifteen oh four, Cortez is nineteen years old. Malintzin is a toddler at this point?
5:44 Speaker 06 Yeah, so we think she was born in fifteen hundred.
5:47 Greg Jenner? Okay.
5:48 Speaker 06 We don't really know much about her or her early life. We think that her father was of some kind of nobility.
5:57 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
5:57 Speaker 06 But we think that her mother was enslaved. She's now her, so she's from central Mexico, but she's not Aztec, that's quite important.
6:05 Greg Jenner? Okay.
6:06 Speaker 06 She's from an area that gets taken over by the Aztecs. It's kind of on the Gulf Coast. She's sold into slavery with the Maya essentially when she's when she's a young girl, we think. She lives among the Maya for quite a time.
6:20 Greg Jenner? And we don't even know her real name, right? We we know her by her later.
6:23 Speaker 06 We only know her baptismal name, which was Marina. And Malintzin comes from that because there's no R in Noatl. So they would hear Malina, but they put the sin at the end, which is an honorific title. So that is essentially Donia Marina in Noatl.
6:42 Speaker 05 So Malintzin, she is Nahu. She's not Maya and she's not Aztec.
6:46 Speaker 06 Yes, no. So it's from a different group entirely.
6:49 Speaker 05 And the Nahu people are.
6:51 Speaker 06 So they are.
6:53 Speaker 05 Who?
6:53 Speaker 06 Basically, everyone who lives in the central region of what's now Mexico. So basically where the Aztec empire was.
7:03 Greg Jenner? In our heads, I guess, over here in the UK, we know the Aztecs as like the dominant superpower of the region.
7:08 Speaker 06 Yes, they rise to prominence in the 1420s. They managed to create this empire that spreads from the Pacific to the Gulf Coast in a hundred years. But it's patchy and this becomes a problem later on. They don't conquer everywhere.
7:25 Greg Jenner? It's a franchise, is it like? Is it like Starbucks?
7:28 Speaker 06 They're after tribute. So both in terms of goods that they want, but also people for sacrifice. So they essentially don't bother to conquer anyone who doesn't have what they want or is too difficult to conquer.
7:44 Greg Jenner? Let's get back to Cortez, he's in Hispaniola, so he has, he's not got to Mexico yet.
7:48 Speaker 06 No, no one has at this point.
7:50 Greg Jenner? He is, he's got a job.
7:53 Speaker 06 Yes.
7:53 Greg Jenner? Is he a legal job?
7:55 Speaker 06 Yes, so he's a notary for a while. And then in 1511, he takes part in the conquest of Cuba, which was organised by Diego Velázquez, who then becomes the governor of Cuba.
8:07 Greg Jenner? Yes.
8:08 Speaker 06 Initially, Velázquez is very impressed by him. He becomes his secretary. That's when Cortez starts to rise to prominence.
8:16 Greg Jenner? And then in 1518, Velázquez gave him another promotion. And this one is a expedition promotion. I want you to go and explore, conquer.
8:27 Speaker 06 Well, explore and trade was worthy, um, with the orders.
8:32 Greg Jenner? The age old trade. Can you go and trade, please? And where is he going?
8:36 Speaker 06 He's off to the Ucatan. There are two expeditions before Cortez's expedition, and that's where they find out about this great city called Tenochtitlan and Motzuma and lots of treasure and things. This obviously piques Cortez's interest. So despite the fact that there are other candidates who would be more experienced, Velazquez gives him the job to go on the next expedition.
9:03 Speaker 05 So this is the third, this is
9:05 Speaker 06 Third time.
9:06 Speaker 05 Third, third, third time. And he's like, I've got a good feeling for you, Cortez.
9:09 Speaker 06 Yes, yes. Now Velazquez starts to hear rumours that Cortez has plans that don't involve him. And so at the last minute, Velazquez says, no, I don't want Cortez anymore. However, Cortez kind of sticks his fingers in his ears and goes la, la, la, la, la.
9:27 Greg Jenner? Oh, really?
9:28 Speaker 06 And he evades arrest about four times, I think.
9:31 Greg Jenner? Man, he's on the run.
9:32 Speaker 06 And then finally, yes, basically, finally sets off in 1519.
9:37 Greg Jenner? And he founds Vera Cruz, the first Spanish town in Mexico. He immediately divorces Velazquez from his sort of chain of command, right? He's just like, I founded a town and I am, I answer to the Spanish king and Velazquez is dead to me and everything's fine.
9:52 Speaker 06 So how, war. But what about, he's not coming back so much so that, um, he burns the boats so that no one can go back.
10:01 Greg Jenner? No way. Okay. All right. So his men are like, um.
10:04 Speaker 06 I wanted to go back, just a little bit of feedback.
10:06 Greg Jenner? Yeah, I actually left my wife and children back there, actually.
10:09 Speaker 06 She's like, tough. No, you're not going back.
10:11 Greg Jenner? Okay.
10:12 Speaker 06 We know all about this from his first letter, essentially.
10:15 Greg Jenner? It's an amazing letter.
10:18 Greg Jenner? It's not even a letter, it's like a rant.
10:20 Speaker 06 Yes, so he knows essentially that in the meantime Velazquez will have obviously written to the king and said, "Look, there's this complete wrong'un who's gone rogue, he's off, I don't even know what he's doing." And so Cortez knows all of this. He doesn't even make it a letter from him, he makes it a letter from the town council of Vera Cruz.
10:45 Greg Jenner? That he's founded.
10:46 Speaker 06 That he has founded. And essentially, it's an insane letter, but he essentially discredits Velazquez and then talks about how great he is, how he, "Oh, I put all of my fortune into this, every step of the way, I've done everything by the book, I've converted everyone to Christianity."
11:05 Greg Jenner? Tiny bit of trivia, that's completely unrelated to the history, but I love it, is that the actor who voiced Cortez in the Road to El Dorado animation also was the voice of Winnie the Pooh. And so I'm just-
11:14 Speaker 05 That is upsetting.
11:15 Greg Jenner? I'm just hearing the voice of Winnie the Pooh whenever Cortez speaks. Of course Winnie the Pooh craves pots of honey, Cortez is after pots of money, so he's off, he's off and seeking golden glory, 1519, and he is going to meet Malintzin. Finally, we get our meat cute, except it's not a meat cute, it's a meat yuck, because she is enslaved and he is arriving as a conqueror.
11:38 Speaker 06 Yes. So Malintzin is one of twenty girls, I guess she's only nineteen, given to the Spanish conquistadors by the Maya as a kind of diplomatic gesture.
11:51 Greg Jenner? Right.
11:51 Speaker 06 She's a present initially. Yeah.
11:55 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
11:55 Speaker 06 Yeah.
11:55 Greg Jenner? Okay.
11:56 Speaker 06 We're not sure at what point it becomes clear that she has really useful linguistic abilities.
12:03 Greg Jenner? So how does the translation work then? You know, if Cortez wants to say something to the Maya?
12:08 Speaker 06 So she could speak Maya and Noatl, so Cortez would speak to a guy called Hieronymo the Aguilar and he would then speak Maya to Malintzin and then she would speak Noatl to any Aztecs.
12:25 Greg Jenner? Ooh, it's just like a chain of-
12:27 Speaker 06 And then backwards, if the other way around.
12:29 Speaker 05 That never works well, does it, with the old whispers? It's like, hang on a sec, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.
12:33 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
12:33 Speaker 05 Yeah. But then she's got quite a lot of power. Because then she can translate anything in any which way she can, once, in a way. Like, oh yeah, he said this.
12:42 Speaker 06 Did he?
12:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
12:44 Speaker 06 We think she learnt Spanish quite quickly and actually Aguilar, he becomes almost obsolete quite early on. Not only can she tell people what he wants to say and vice versa, she also understands the etiquette, which is incredibly different.
13:01 Speaker 05 So she understands the etiquette of the Spanish and she also understands the etiquette of the Mayan, is it the Mayan people?
13:07 Speaker 06 The other Naur people.
13:08 Speaker 05 The other Naur people, right.
13:10 Speaker 06 The Maya too, but it's the Naur people that are more.
13:13 Speaker 05 That are in that part.
13:14 Speaker 06 More kind of important to the conquest.
13:17 Greg Jenner? And Cortez is presumably using charm and violence, those two lovely combinat-, you know, he's, he's.
13:22 Speaker 06 Yeah, essentially, he, he learns quite early on that the Aztec empire isn't as solid as he thought it was. And he also learns that there are certain groups who aren't happy with the Aztecs. He gets the Totanacs on side initially by capturing an Aztec tax collector. Now, the most important allies that he picks up are the Tlaxcalans. They hate the Aztecs, absolutely hate the Aztecs.
13:51 Speaker 05 I feel like the Spanish have arrived, there's not that many of them.
13:55 Greg Jenner? No.
13:55 Speaker 05 They seem very annoying. They're going around telling people what to do, oh, you can do that and I'll do that. And it's like, why don't they, the Totanacs and the Mayans and everybody, they get together and go, let's just kill these Spanish guys because they are a pain in the butt. And they keep talking about some guy called Jesus, I don't know who he is. What do you say? I mean, it seems like they, somebody missed a trick very early on.
14:17 Speaker 06 Yeah, well, the Tlaxcalans, at one point, it seems like the Tlaxcalans might actually finish them off. The Spanish really have to think about their tactics in order to not be killed, basically.
14:29 Greg Jenner? So we have to conquer Tenochtitlan, well, we're not going to do it, Cortez is going to do it. A vast, vast citadel, an incredibly sophisticated, huge city.
14:38 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:39 Greg Jenner? And 600 Spaniards show up and some allies.
14:43 Speaker 06 Yeah, with about two.
14:44 Greg Jenner? Tlaxcalan, 2000.
14:46 Speaker 06 Tlaxcalans, probably.
14:47 Greg Jenner? So about 2,500 people show up on the doors of this vast imperial citadel. And they just, what, bring the doorbell and say, hello, we've come to Conqui.
14:57 Speaker 06 So along the way, obviously Moctezuma has heard about this. He, he has people all over his empire. He can kind of go back and tell them things. Yes, we call it, uh, the Tlatuani is the, the real word, which means he who speaks. But we tend to call him the emperor. He has spies that have told him about all of this. That they're these weird guys. Is he not like, we've got to do something about these guys. Yeah, well, they set traps for them, which were intercepted by the Tashkallans, by Maninson. They find out about things that were.
15:32 Greg Jenner? Okay, so Cortez is about to step on various booby traps.
15:34 Speaker 06 Yeah, basically.
15:35 Greg Jenner? Don't step on that, don't eat that. No, that's, that's not a fruit. That's a grenade.
15:39 Speaker 06 Yeah. Moctezuma also sends people out with gifts and things. Chocolate. Yeah, probably, um, but also gold, which is not so in Aztec terms. That's basically a show of power and it would have sent the message of back off. I've got all of this power, but obviously.
16:02 Greg Jenner? Yeah, to Cortez, he's like.
16:03 Speaker 06 To Cortez, he's like, oh, these guys love us.
16:05 Greg Jenner? They've given us gold. This is great.
16:07 Speaker 06 Ding dong. Hi.
16:10 Greg Jenner? And, and so we know that Moctezuma meets Cortez.
16:13 Speaker 06 Yes, yes, of course.
16:14 Greg Jenner? And then suddenly the city falls. I mean, that's, that's very truncated, but like.
16:18 Speaker 06 Yes. Moctezuma invites them into the city. So his idea, and he's been painted very badly for this, but there's a few reasons why he does this. For a start, once they're in the city, they're at their mercy, they're, they're hosts, basically. So they can control them to a certain extent. Their weapons don't work quite as well, either in the confines of the city. But also Moctezuma would have been thinking, well, we can't have a battle kind of outside of the city because if it looks like we're losing, everyone else is going to join. Going to pile on.
16:55 Greg Jenner? Oh, right. You've got to control the narrative.
16:58 Speaker 06 Yes. So they first meet, it's November. So definitely by April. So they're there for ages.
17:04 Greg Jenner? So November 15, 19.
17:05 Speaker 06 Yes.
17:06 Greg Jenner? Six months later.
17:06 Speaker 06 So definitely by then, but probably sooner, Cortes basically kidnaps Moctezuma.
17:12 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
17:13 Speaker 06 And they have this very strange thing where Moctezuma's pretending that everything's fine, because if he lets on, his people will essentially get rid of him and get the next Aztec emperor. I mean, have they not noticed there's something going on? Yeah. Well, he pretends that they're just like at leisure together. It's very weird. This weird situation where he's got hold of Moctezuma gets, it comes to an end because Cortes hears that Velázquez has finally got his together. Oh, I forgot about him.
17:49 Greg Jenner? You forgot about Velázquez, didn't you?
17:51 Speaker 06 And sent a massive army to arrest Cortes. So I think it's May, May of 1520, basically. Cortes hears he has to race off to the Gulf Coast. He manages to convince those guys to join him.
18:05 Greg Jenner? Nice.
18:06 Speaker 06 He is very persuasive, this guy. He's a charmer.
18:10 Greg Jenner? He is a charmer.
18:11 Speaker 06 In the meantime, he leaves a guy called Pedro de Alvarado in charge. And we don't know if he does hear these rumours or not, but his version of events is that he hears rumours that the Aztecs are going to attack them. So they engage in a massive massacre, basically.
18:30 Greg Jenner? And so Moctezuma appears on the terrace to convince his people to sort of calm down.
18:34 Speaker 06 Yeah.
18:35 Greg Jenner? And then somehow he dies.
18:37 Speaker 06 Yeah, so.
18:38 Greg Jenner? I'm sure his people killed him.
18:40 Speaker 06 His people aren't very happy with him, obviously.
18:42 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
18:43 Speaker 06 Actually, Malintzin also goes on the terrace and tries to convey these messages. The conquistadors' version of events is that he is hit with a slingshot.
18:52 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
18:52 Speaker 06 And later dies of his wounds. However, the indigenous version of events is that he gets stabbed, basically.
19:00 Greg Jenner? Okay.
19:01 Speaker 06 By Cortez, because he's no longer of any use, basically.
19:04 Greg Jenner? So that's the end of Motecuma.
19:06 Speaker 06 Yeah.
19:06 Greg Jenner? Um, this Cortez is now in control, I think we can say.
19:10 Speaker 06 Yeah.
19:10 Speaker 05 It's quite interesting because I didn't know, and this makes a lot of sense, that the Spanish had allies amongst other indigenous communities or people. I just assumed that all of the Aztecs were murdered by the conquistadors, like the Spanish. But they actually, they actually got help.
19:30 Greg Jenner? Cortez then continues and Mexico is conquered by Spain and it becomes part of the Spanish Empire and sends home all the silver and gold back to Spain. So that's sort of the conquest story. And then Malintzin, at this point, has kind of done her job.
19:43 Speaker 06 No.
19:44 Greg Jenner? She could, could she not just go, all right, job done, thanks very much, I'm off?
19:47 Speaker 06 She's so important that she becomes part of the conversion effort as well to begin with. And she also is involved in other missions that Cortez goes on, like to Honduras, for example. So she's, yeah, she continues to be his right-hand woman.
20:03 Greg Jenner? I mean, they have a kid together, don't they?
20:05 Speaker 06 They do. We have no idea, obviously, how consensual that was, but they have, they have a child called Martin.
20:13 Greg Jenner? The interesting thing about Malintzin is that sort of where the story ends, she dies quite young. She dies in fifteen twenty-nine. When she's only, she's barely thirty, yeah, if that. So that's quite sad and that's where we leave her in the story.
20:23 Speaker 06 Martin gets sent to Spain and actually lives with the Spanish nobility, Spanish royalty.
20:29 Greg Jenner? Okay.
20:29 Speaker 06 So he and Cortez formally recognizes him.
20:34 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
20:34 Speaker 06 Um, as his son as well.
20:36 Speaker 05 Do we know how she died or?
20:38 Speaker 06 I think she just kind of succumbed in the end, got one of the many diseases.
20:44 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
20:44 Speaker 06 That the Europeans.
20:45 Speaker 05 Yeah.
20:46 Speaker 06 So kindly brought over.
20:48 Speaker 05 And she was so young.
20:49 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
20:50 Speaker 05 You know, from, it's like, she really only, in that whole period, was around for a decade. Um, and within that decade, she had such a huge influence and. I think when you're also, when you're a young woman and you've got literally no agency, you grab it where you can, don't you?
21:05 Greg Jenner? You do.
21:05 Speaker 05 How does history view her? Is she's, do historians view her kindly?
21:10 Speaker 06 Not so much. No, she, well, historians, it depends on. So essentially, we have the big, great, great, I'm putting quotation marks around that. Historian of the conquest, who's a Victorian, and the Victorians have a lot to answer for in terms of history being written, called William Prescott. He is the biggest Cortez fanboy. He is obsessed with Cortez. He does say she's important, but he also sexualises her quite a lot. Um, and talks about basically that her linguistic skills also included the language of love.
21:49 Speaker 05 I mean, where's he getting that from?
21:51 Speaker 06 Oh, he's just.
21:52 Speaker 05 There's absolutely no evidence of that at all.
21:54 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
21:54 Speaker 06 Um, yeah.
21:56 Speaker 05 It's, it's, so. So for a long time Cortez was, was, was viewed favourably for many centuries and would have been lauded and applauded.
22:04 Greg Jenner? Well, this brings us to my next question, actually, Amy, because for so long Cortez has been on the run.
22:08 Speaker 05 Yes.
22:09 Greg Jenner? From the Spanish authorities, you know, people have been sending armies after him. But he finally conquers Mexico.
22:14 Speaker 05 Yeah.
22:15 Greg Jenner? Which means presumably he gets to go to the King of Spain. Hello, this is yours because of me, so do you wanna let me off and give me a job? I mean, what does he, does he get rewarded?
22:24 Speaker 06 So, yes, he does. He, initially, he becomes the governor of what they call New Spain, which is what Mexico's called initially. Yeah, he does get rewarded. He also makes sure to have his letters published.
22:38 Greg Jenner? Great.
22:39 Speaker 06 Very quickly, so they're all, I think there's five of them and they're all published by fifteen twenty five, just so. His legacy is secure. He gets made governor of Mexico, but it doesn't always.
22:51 Greg Jenner? He's too, he's too hot-headed, isn't he? He is. He can't just settle for something and go, this is fine, this is enough.
22:55 Speaker 06 No, he.
22:56 Speaker 05 Oh, what does he do?
22:58 Speaker 06 Well, he gets too big for his boots, basically.
23:01 Speaker 05 He's been big, too big for his boots for about two decades.
23:04 Greg Jenner? So, yeah, so the king appoints an investigator, Ponce de Leon, to, to come after him, strips him of his governorship in fifteen twenty six.
23:11 Speaker 06 Yeah, so Pompey de Leon dies quite soon after he arrives. The second guy who is sent to investigate him also dies within like eight months.
23:23 Speaker 05 What are they dying from?
23:24 Greg Jenner? I think they're dying from Cortez, that's probably.
23:26 Speaker 06 Yeah, we don't know. I mean, some people have said it might have been Cortez, but we're not, we're not 100% sure about that. But yeah, in 1528, Cortez goes back to Spain to talk to the king. He's well received. He's even given a title. He's, he's removed from being the governor of New Spain.
23:46 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
23:46 Speaker 06 But he's given, he's made the Marquess of the Valley of Oaxaca.
23:51 Speaker 05 All of the men in this entire historical period.
23:55 Greg Jenner? You're holding your eyes like you've got a migraine.
23:57 Speaker 05 Absolutely appalling human beings. Despite us knowing all of this, Cortez is a hero.
24:05 Greg Jenner? Well, I mean.
24:05 Speaker 05 Not now, but then.
24:06 Greg Jenner? He's constantly investigated, isn't he? They're constantly trying to investigate him for murder, for embezzlement, for not following orders. He is ruthless. He is avaricious. Even the Spanish think that, but he gets away with it. How does he die in the end? Does Moximac get his revenge, as the famous idiom would have it?
24:22 Speaker 06 Well, so he dies of, we think, pleurisy, but just before that, he has a really bad case of dysentery.
24:31 Greg Jenner? Good.
24:33 Speaker 05 I mean, what a way to go.
24:35 Speaker 06 Yeah, it sounds like a horrible death and, you know, couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
24:40 Speaker 05 Truly.
24:41 Greg Jenner? Okay, so pleurisy is probably what killed him, but dysentery probably didn't help. Okay. So there you go, Jen. Hernán Cortez and Malintzin. It's quite the story, isn't it?
24:51 Speaker 05 It is the story. It is quite the story. It's quite a sad story.
24:55 Greg Jenner? It's tragic, really.
24:57 Speaker 05 There's no part of it that isn't. He is genuinely one of the most unpleasant men in, in history, I would say.
25:04 Speaker 06 Yeah.
25:04 Speaker 05 He's a truly awful human being.
25:07 Speaker 06 Yeah.
25:07 Speaker 05 And sure, Malintzin by proxy, you could say, yeah, but you know, she was no saint either. And that is absolutely true. But the power dynamic there was so, you know, you can't compare the two. You're looking at a young girl who was enslaved and was trying to survive. And she wasn't to know how it was going to turn out, you know, that it was going to end up being some sort of genocidal mania. And then this Cortez guy was just like total.
25:35 Speaker 05 Narcissist psychopath. Good guy. Good guy.
25:39 Speaker 07 Good guy. The Nuance Window.
25:47 Greg Jenner? Time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Jen and I machete our way through the jungle for two minutes while Amy tells us something we need to know about Malintzin. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Amy.
25:59 Speaker 06 So sadly, after Mexico gained its independence from Spain in 1821, Malintzin's public reputation went downhill. There was a desire to reclaim the history of the nation from the colonizer and to explain how the conquest happened. But unfortunately, this led to her becoming a scapegoat. She's often referred to as the Mexican Eve, a traitor and a whore who betrayed her people despite the fact that she wasn't Aztec, nor did she have much agency of her own. Weirdly, the hundreds of thousands of indigenous allies do not get blamed. They're presented as being tricked by Cortez into fighting against Moctezuma the tyrant. Yet, she is not awarded the same dispensation. However, as depressing as all
26:44 Speaker 06 that is, let's reflect on how she was viewed by her contemporaries, largely because it's quite annoying for Cortez and his fanboys. So, not only did the other conquistadors testify that she was absolutely fundamental to the conquest, so much so that they could not have achieved their victory without her, but the Tashkallans, in their pictorial sources, present her in every scene that Cortez features, even in amongst the fighting, like a real badass. And sometimes she's even depicted as bigger than him, basically insinuating that she was more important than him. And in fact, because she was always in Cortez's company, the indigenous people they spoke to referred to Cortez as the captain of Marina
27:27 Speaker 06 or Melinchay. This not only demonstrates her importance to the native allies, but even better, it effectively demoted Cortez because he was named in terms of his relationship with her.
27:39 Speaker 08 I actually am Team Berlinsin. Sure, I didn't turn out great in the long term, but I think she did what she had to do to survive.
27:47 Greg Jenner? Listener, if you're bursting for more Brister, check out our episode on Emma of Normandy with all the elf geevus for more Mexican history or famous interpreters. You can do the Aztecs episode, series one, the Sacagawea episode, or the Colombian exchange episode, which is about Columbus and after that fact. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds, and also make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In history corner, we had the amazing Dr Amy Fuller from Nottingham Trent University. Thank you, Amy. Thanks for having me. It was great fun. And in comedy corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen.
28:25 Speaker 08 Oh, what a delight. I've really enjoyed it. And thank you, Amy. I've learned a lot.
28:29 Greg Jenner? And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we translate another overlooked historical story. But for now, I'm off to write a long letter to the King of Spain blaming someone else for all of my failures. Bye.
28:45 Speaker 09 From BBC Radio 4, this is What Seriously? I'm Dara O'Brien.
28:49 Speaker 10 And I'm Izzy Sutty. And in our new series, we're bringing you short stories and tall tales.
28:53 Speaker 09 What Seriously? is packed with real life, strange but true stories that make you go, but seriously? And provide you with excellent social ammo to impress your friends.
29:01 Speaker 10 The twist is, we don't know how each story unfolds. And we'll have to figure it out one fragment at a time with our special guests, who each have a mysterious connection to the tale.
29:10 Speaker 09 That's right. I am your spy expert.
29:12 Speaker 11 And I don't really want to bring you back to the real facts of the story because you're making me laugh so much, but I feel like I should.
29:16 Speaker 00 We're the only country in the world that ate the animal on our crest, like. And I never know whether to feel terrible or brilliant about that.
29:22 Speaker 08 All these engineers trying desperately to reduce the amount of dust in space. And you get Izzy taking up a balloon full of glass.
29:29 Speaker 09 Wow.
29:29 Speaker 12 You're welcome. Have that one on the house.
29:31 Speaker 09 With all the stuff.
29:32 Speaker 12 I know, right? It's like I'm reading from a sheet or something, but never have.
29:37 Speaker 09 Join us for What Seriously? From BBC Radio 4, available now on BBC Sounds.
29:53 Speaker 02 Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human.
30:12 Speaker 02 Listen to The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts, or find us on YouTube.
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