Pod Insights You're Dead to Me Empress Matilda (Radio Edit) About this episode Greg Jenner is joined in twelfth-century England by Dr Gabrielle Storey and comedian Cariad Lloyd to learn all about Empress Matilda and the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy.
A granddaughter of William the Conqueror, Matilda was born into England’s new Norman royal family. As a young girl she was used as a dynastic pawn by her father and sent to Germany to marry the Holy Roman Emperor. Here she was crowned empress and trained to rule.
When her younger brother died, followed by her husband, Matilda returned to England to take her place as her father’s heir. But after her father’s death she was beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, and so began the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. Although Matilda ultimately lost, her son, Henry, was made Stephen’s heir, and he went on to rule with support and advice from his royal mother. So who was the real winner?
This episode traces Matilda’s dramatic life from daughter of a king to empress of Germany to queen-in-waiting of England. Along the way, we ask whether medieval sexism prevented her from taking the throne, and look at the ways a woman could rule in twelfth-century Europe.
This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.
Hosted by: Greg Jenner
Research by: Clara Chamberlain
Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner
Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner
Audio Producer: Steve Hankey
Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands
Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse
Executive Editor: Philip Sellars
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:16 Greg Jenner? Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fist of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the anarchy. And joining our royal court are two very special guests. In history corner, she's a historian of monarchy and sexuality, specialising in medieval history. She's the author of Berengaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Lomond. And you'll remember her from our episode on Eleanor of Accutane. It's Dr Gabrielle Story. Welcome back, Gabby. Great, thanks for having me back. And in comedy corner, she's a multi-talented comedian, actor, writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show. She's an author. Her new children's book, Where Does She Go?, is a lovely analysis of grief for kids. It's beautiful.
2:01 Greg Jenner? Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in The Hilarious Ostentatious Improv Show. She's a busy woman and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of You're Dead to Me, including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts Movement. It's the wonderful Cariad Lloyd. Welcome back, Cariad.
2:14 Speaker 03 Ahoy there, Sarah. As they said in medieval times, yes?
2:20 Speaker 03 Good morrow upon thee, yes?
2:23 Speaker 03 Gabby's nodding like, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That was your classic English greeting. Well, we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode. Bonjour, sir.
2:34 Greg Jenner? Now, Carrie, together we have done Agrippina, the younger of Rome.
2:37 Speaker 03 Yep.
2:38 Greg Jenner? A sort of empress. We've done plenty of sort of regency and Victorian. We've not done medieval together.
2:44 Speaker 03 We have not gone back to medieval times.
2:46 Greg Jenner? And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think?
2:49 Speaker 03 I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, which could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Ackroyd's London. And I only remember two things from Peter Ackroyd's London. And I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda. And that when she came out Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her. And that the area of St Giles was a slum. I'm so sorry, Peter Ackroyd. It's a very large tome.
3:12 Greg Jenner? It's a very big book, very heavy.
3:14 Speaker 03 I should remember more.
3:15 Greg Jenner? Popular queen. Interesting. We will address that later, I think.
3:18 Speaker 03 Okay, that's fine.
3:20 Greg Jenner? That is not what I was.
3:22 Speaker 03 Oh, no. Well, take it out with Peter Ackroyd, not me.
3:25 Greg Jenner? So, what do you know?
3:32 Greg Jenner? Great. That brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Roald Dahl story, more so than medieval royal diva, I suspect. But you may have read Ken Follet's famous mega massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2: Expansion Pack, ooh, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda. But who was the real life Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full blown civil war? Let's find out. Right, Dr Gabby, when was Matilda born? You know, where are we
4:15 Greg Jenner? in history? And are we talking royal baby?
4:18 Speaker 04 Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions.
4:25 Speaker 03 They always do.
4:26 Speaker 04 Yeah, but Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry the First, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conqueror, also known by another name that's not radio for friendly, so we'll keep it at that for the moment. And her mother was Matilda of Scotland, and Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great, so this gives some legitimacy.
4:48 Speaker 03 She's like, she's royalty.
4:50 Speaker 04 We don't know loads unfortunately about her upbringing, so royal girls are often raised in nunnaries and sometimes they're at court with their mothers, if they're at court with their mothers and they're travelling around, you know, we know that she goes to Exeter, she's in Norwich, Windsor, Canterbury, so she does move round of the court quite a bit. Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured, she's very pious, so she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power, so we can see her with a good amount of political authority, again, something Junie Matilda's gonna pick up on.
5:26 Greg Jenner? And we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter and it's sort of sunny climes, you know, sweltering Exeter. But she went considerably further at a young age, do you want to guess where, Carriead?
5:36 Speaker 03 France.
5:37 Greg Jenner? Further than France.
5:38 Speaker 03 Oh, maybe, Germany.
5:40 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
5:41 Speaker 03 Oh.
5:42 Greg Jenner? Yeah, yeah.
5:43 Speaker 03 All the way to Germany.
5:44 Greg Jenner? All the way to Germany.
5:45 Speaker 03 So she went to the school exchange for the Germany, because the French one was full.
5:47 Greg Jenner? Well, it wasn't the school exchange programme, Carriead.
5:49 Speaker 03 Oh, it was to meet a man to marry.
5:51 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
5:52 Speaker 03 It was marriage exchange.
5:53 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
5:54 Speaker 03 But you know what, Greg, they look down on that in schools these days.
5:55 Greg Jenner? Yeah, yeah, um, often on this show I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage klaxon. How old are we talking here, Gabby?
6:04 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, how old?
6:05 Speaker 04 Eight.
6:06 Speaker 03 Oh. Now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this programme, but that is low. Medieval. What is wrong with you?
6:14 Speaker 04 Officially engaged at the age of eight, I will raise that.
6:17 Greg Jenner? That's fine, that's fine then, yeah, no.
6:19 Speaker 04 I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realise that that's quite young to be being married.
6:25 Speaker 03 But they would like say it like, this is gonna happen, we're just making sure everyone, we've signed the contracts.
6:30 Speaker 04 Yeah.
6:31 Speaker 03 You can see what you're buying, but they're not gonna actually get married for a while.
6:35 Speaker 04 Yes.
6:36 Speaker 03 I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable.
6:37 Greg Jenner? Yeah, but she does go out there at eight, right?
6:39 Speaker 04 Yes, yes.
6:40 Greg Jenner? To Germany, so her father is a arranger, her father is Henry.
6:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
6:43 Greg Jenner? And she's betrothed to who?
6:44 Speaker 04 Henry.
6:45 Greg Jenner? Oh, another one.
6:46 Speaker 03 Can't call him Heinrich or something like, he's also Henry the fifth.
6:51 Greg Jenner? Heinrich, yeah.
6:52 Speaker 03 Yeah. Oh Heinrich the fifth.
6:53 Speaker 04 Yep, Heinrich.
6:54 Greg Jenner? And he is what?
6:55 Speaker 04 And he is king of the Romans. So Germany at this time, also you go by the title of king of the Romans. So it can be king of Germany, king of the Romans, because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well. Which is what happens to Henry. And Matilda is also crowned, even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Meins on the 25th of July, 1110. So.
7:21 Speaker 03 They give her a party.
7:22 Speaker 04 Yeah, so she's, yeah, she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married. So that's not a bad deal for an eight year old.
7:30 Speaker 03 Well, it is.
7:30 Greg Jenner? I mean, it's a, I mean.
7:32 Speaker 03 It's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants to call in the caterpillar cake. Other cakes are available. Um, but it's still not ideal if she's gonna have to marry.
7:42 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
7:42 Speaker 03 Das Henry Funf.
7:45 Speaker 04 Yes, she does become queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future.
7:53 Speaker 03 Okay.
7:54 Speaker 04 Henry and Matilda are married in 1114, just before she turns 12.
7:58 Speaker 03 Wow, sweetie.
8:00 Greg Jenner? They can't even wait till she's 12.
8:01 Speaker 04 Yeah, so the problematic marriage klaxon can still.
8:04 Speaker 03 Continue, yeah. Well, if you engage at eight, it's a long time before that klaxon is gonna stop ringing, isn't it?
8:10 Greg Jenner? I need new batteries for the klaxon.
8:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, you're gonna.
8:13 Speaker 04 Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress, Imperatrix Romanorum, in 1117. So they're crowned not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Brega. And therefore this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on fully and is like, well, no, I'm empress now. That's gonna be my title. That's what I'm gonna use.
8:33 Speaker 03 But she's like 12 at this point, like 14 or something?
8:35 Speaker 04 Uh.
8:36 Greg Jenner? She's probably like 15, I think, at this point. She's suddenly demoted in 1125.
8:41 Speaker 03 Oh, what? What happened to her?
8:43 Greg Jenner? You know, she's been ruling Italy, she's the empress, and then suddenly, nope.
8:46 Speaker 04 Because Henry the fifth dies, Heinrich passes away.
8:49 Speaker 03 Das Henry Funf is dead. Caput.
8:53 Speaker 04 He goes kaput.
8:55 Speaker 03 Henry fifth, oh no. So he just dies, but she's left unprotected?
9:00 Speaker 04 Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow, they have no children.
9:03 Speaker 03 They've got no kids.
9:04 Speaker 04 But she decides to go back to England in 1126, and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her. So she takes two of Henry's crowns.
9:16 Greg Jenner? There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry.
9:19 Speaker 03 King Henry the second.
9:21 Greg Jenner? He's lost his heir. I mean, it's a huge dynastic catastrophe.
9:25 Speaker 04 So November 1120, the English royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at this point. So they've got control over both of those areas. Now, Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships. William on the white ship, which was captained by Thomas Fitzstephen. And his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place.
9:46 Greg Jenner? Oh, so it's a nepo hire.
9:47 Speaker 04 Yes.
9:49 Speaker 04 Now, as is typical, dad sets off first, but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a party before they get on the ship. And Fitzstephen claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship. So the sailors leave at night and go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks. So, yes, the rock rips a hole, ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers die, which is a butcher from Rouen.
10:26 Speaker 03 So we only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you, it was not me, they were all so drunk. So you didn't drink. No, no, no, no, no, I did not, I was not the one who bought the booze.
10:37 Greg Jenner? So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy because suddenly here's an heir.
10:41 Speaker 03 Yeah.
10:42 Greg Jenner? But a woman, so.
10:43 Speaker 03 How do they feel about that?
10:44 Speaker 04 Not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point.
10:48 Speaker 03 Okay.
10:49 Speaker 04 But they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the Kingdom of England. Henry decides to get married again, just in case, but he does make plans. So he does ask the bishops and magnates of England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies.
11:06 Greg Jenner? Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he?
11:09 Speaker 03 Of course, well, she's only young, right?
11:10 Greg Jenner? She's 24.
11:11 Speaker 03 24, but 4 and 20, as Jane Ralston would say. She's almost a spinster, but not quite.
11:17 Greg Jenner? So he marries her off again.
11:19 Speaker 03 Okay.
11:19 Greg Jenner? Again, inappropriate aged husband.
11:22 Speaker 03 Oh, what is he, like 80 or something?
11:24 Greg Jenner? Other way around.
11:24 Speaker 03 Oh, no, he's like seven.
11:26 Greg Jenner? He's a teenager, so she's the cougar this time. She's, how old's the new hubby?
11:31 Speaker 04 So Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda.
11:35 Greg Jenner? And the aged gap there is what?
11:37 Speaker 04 11 years. So, you know, we're getting into another problematic marriage class in there.
11:42 Greg Jenner? She's not impressed, right?
11:44 Speaker 04 No, she's not, because again.
11:45 Speaker 03 Who's Geoffrey? Not of Mammoth, that's the only Geoffrey I know, guys.
11:48 Greg Jenner? That's a good medieval name.
11:49 Speaker 03 Thank you.
11:50 Greg Jenner? Now, this is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right?
11:51 Speaker 03 Oh, Plantagenet, I knew that.
11:53 Speaker 04 So he is Count of Anjou, so Anjou's a central county in France at this point. But yeah, Matilda's not happy. He's socially inferior because he's only a count. Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor, so she's got a teenager and a count. It's quite a big step that up.
12:09 Speaker 03 A bit embarrassing.
12:10 Speaker 04 Yeah.
12:11 Speaker 03 And does he just come over to England and just is living with her?
12:14 Speaker 04 No, she goes over to Anjou.
12:16 Speaker 03 I see, so she has to go and live there.
12:18 Greg Jenner? Poor Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter of her own teenage husband. And she has a baby, and that's healthy, second child, but it's very dangerous.
12:28 Speaker 04 Yes, she does think she's going to die. She makes all her funeral arrangements and everything and, you know, sorts out a will effectively, because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her. But son number one is another Henry.
12:42 Speaker 03 Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it. Only the second.
12:46 Speaker 04 Yep, son number two, the problematic one, is Geoffrey, and they go on to have a third son, William, as well. So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys, but yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic.
12:58 Greg Jenner? Okay, so dad so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad passes away in 1135. The King of England is dead, and all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, a triple lock.
13:12 Speaker 03 And you know how reliable bishops are in history. If they agree something, those bishops never let you down.
13:19 Greg Jenner? So the next ruler of England, Carrie, is?
13:21 Speaker 03 Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda.
13:24 Greg Jenner? Hmm, yeah.
13:25 Speaker 03 Do they want it to go to her son? Are they trying to do it that way?
13:27 Greg Jenner? I mean, that would, that would make more sense, but no.
13:29 Speaker 03 They just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it?
13:34 Greg Jenner? Do you want to talk us through it, Debbie?
13:35 Speaker 04 Yeah, so Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen.
13:40 Speaker 03 Oh, Stephen.
13:41 Speaker 04 Steve, shall we call him Steve first?
13:43 Speaker 03 Stephen, I've heard of Stephen.
13:45 Speaker 04 Stephen of Blois. He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 22nd. So literally.
13:54 Greg Jenner? That is a quick party arrangement.
13:56 Speaker 03 It's even like the same age as her. You know, they have a cousin a similar age and the families are like, well, Stephen got five A stars in his GCSEs, Matilda. So Stephen's going to Oxford. Like, Stephen's actually become King of England.
14:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah.
14:08 Speaker 03 Poor Matilda.
14:09 Speaker 04 I mean, it does help, talking of meddling bishops, Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is a big.
14:15 Greg Jenner? Very handy.
14:16 Speaker 04 But Matilda, when we're talking about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy. And perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.
14:25 Greg Jenner? So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave. It's the absolute 21st century. Something's never changed, right?
14:35 Speaker 03 Oh, something's never changed. Poor Matilda.
14:37 Greg Jenner? Poor Matilda. So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B, the throne thief. That's his hip hop name. King Stephen, Stephen of Blois. Who is he?
14:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:47 Speaker 04 So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.
14:50 Speaker 03 Oh, even worse, yeah.
14:51 Speaker 04 Yeah, depending if we go over the 1092 birthday. He is the third son of King Henry I's sister Adela.
14:59 Speaker 03 Oh, Adela, okay.
15:00 Speaker 04 The family relationship there. He's a favourite of Henry I. He grows up in the English court. Because his mum sent him there thinking it'd be more, you know, sophisticated than Elan. So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead. When he does nip, nip across the channel.
15:15 Speaker 03 He's been hanging out with the lads in the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you, I get you.
15:19 Greg Jenner? And he's married to?
15:21 Speaker 03 Matilda.
15:22 Greg Jenner? Yes, he is.
15:23 Speaker 04 Yeah, heiress to the county of Boulogne.
15:25 Greg Jenner? So Stephen is the king. Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth thankfully.
15:29 Speaker 03 To William, yeah.
15:30 Greg Jenner? And, and now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne.
15:35 Speaker 03 That's mine. Should have been me. Yeah, okay.
15:37 Greg Jenner? So what does she do next?
15:38 Speaker 03 She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne.
15:44 Speaker 03 I know. Get out of my throne, Stephen.
15:46 Greg Jenner? Yeah, I, I think it's time now for the anarchy. So would we call this a civil war?
15:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think 12th century civil war, the less known of the civil wars in England.
15:54 Greg Jenner? Sure, yeah.
15:55 Speaker 04 Perhaps. But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focused on taking that first, think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 1138, 1139, she's like, hang on, now I need to focus on taking England.
16:09 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:10 Speaker 04 Several of the English barons, including her half-brother, Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounce their oath to Stephen. Matilda's uncle, David, the king of Scotland, also causes problem up in the north. 1139, she does apply for the pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters.
16:28 Greg Jenner? How do you apply to the pope? You just fill in a form?
16:30 Speaker 03 It really sounded like she applied for a job.
16:32 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
16:33 Speaker 04 Yep, but no luck there. But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 1139. Unfortunately, her stepmother, Adelisa, who's at Arundel, says, oh, come here, I'll support you.
16:45 Greg Jenner? Arundel's a very lovely town. Very, very nice day out.
16:48 Speaker 03 Got a great castle.
16:49 Greg Jenner? Lovely castle, lovely antique shops, good cafes.
16:51 Speaker 03 Yeah, I've been to the castle, so.
16:53 Greg Jenner? So Gabby, talk us through the war then, this, this brutal anarchy, this civil war.
16:57 Speaker 04 So, once Matilda's got to Arundel, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the west country, because her half-brother, Robert, Duke of Gloucester's there.
17:07 Speaker 03 Yeah.
17:08 Speaker 04 So he's got people on side for her. So they decide to start battling. This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne.
17:23 Speaker 03 Barons always are interested in a bit of land. People should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne.
17:28 Speaker 04 Yeah.
17:29 Greg Jenner? There are very few positive barons in history.
17:31 Speaker 03 There's very few.
17:33 Speaker 04 This kind of carries on for about two years. Then February eleven forty one, have a breakthrough. Battle of Lincoln.
17:38 Speaker 03 Oh.
17:39 Speaker 04 Stephen is captured.
17:41 Speaker 03 Oh.
17:41 Speaker 04 So Matilda has Stephen in chains.
17:44 Speaker 03 Oh my goodness.
17:44 Speaker 04 And he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle.
17:46 Speaker 03 Wow.
17:47 Greg Jenner? And she now is the queen, yes? Yes?
17:50 Speaker 03 No, the barons don't back it, right?
17:52 Greg Jenner? Come on!
17:52 Speaker 04 Nope, nope, absolutely. She's not there yet. So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins, has Lady of the English stamped on the coins, as like a precursor to becoming queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her.
18:15 Greg Jenner? Oh.
18:16 Speaker 04 They will not let her in.
18:18 Greg Jenner? But Cariad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular.
18:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, I've obviously remembered that completely incorrectly, that when, I'm sure I remember him saying that she was a, like, that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda.
18:31 Speaker 04 Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, is popular.
18:34 Speaker 03 Oh, maybe I'm into Matilda!
18:36 Greg Jenner? It's the other Matilda.
18:38 Speaker 04 So that may be where Actroyd's coming from.
18:41 Greg Jenner? It's very easy to mix the Matildas.
18:42 Speaker 04 Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give London a special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in, love.
18:53 Speaker 03 Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them.
18:57 Speaker 04 Yeah, so we, you know, we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here.
19:02 Greg Jenner? It must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the, you know, the rightful.
19:08 Speaker 03 Yeah, she should, by right.
19:09 Greg Jenner? She should, by right.
19:10 Speaker 03 Sail into Westminster.
19:11 Greg Jenner? And yet the people of London are like, get out, love, you know, you're not around it. And, and, and she just goes home?
19:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, what happens?
19:18 Speaker 04 No, so she flees back to the west country and, you know, where she's safe and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda. So we've got the Battle of the Matildas now going on because Stephen's still imprisoned. So we have the siege of Winchester in September eleven forty one. But Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again.
19:42 Speaker 03 Wow, this Queen Matilda is like hot in her heels, isn't she? Of like powerful woman and using her political strength.
19:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, and unfortunately Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half brother, is captured.
19:57 Speaker 03 Oh, no.
19:57 Speaker 04 So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back Robert, Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert, and.
20:06 Speaker 03 Get out of the pub. This is like Pat and Peggy all over again.
20:10 Speaker 04 Yeah.
20:11 Speaker 03 Very equally matched, different sides of the square, but basically the same person. She swapped Stephen for Jacob Gloucester.
20:18 Speaker 04 Yeah, and Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne.
20:24 Speaker 03 Yeah, straight back on that throne.
20:25 Greg Jenner? And then we get an even bigger disaster, Gabby, the Battle of Oxford.
20:29 Speaker 04 Yep, so this is eleven forty two. So Empress Matilda is again forced to flee, and this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time. Stephen besieges the city, they are sieged for three months, and eventually she is forced to escape. She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out of the gate.
20:54 Speaker 03 Wow, that's Game of Thrones.
20:55 Greg Jenner? It's sort of, it's kind of camouflage, right? It's all sneaky, sneaky. So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides the safety. So she's not captured.
21:04 Speaker 03 Does she go back to Europe at this point?
21:05 Greg Jenner? Yeah, I mean, in the movie, escaping in the snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right?
21:10 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:10 Greg Jenner? But in terms of the history books.
21:12 Speaker 04 Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her.
21:18 Speaker 03 Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone. The moment's gone.
21:21 Speaker 04 Yeah, and I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely sought in the mood.
21:27 Speaker 03 Not king once, but king twice, Londoners. Let me hear you. Yeah, exactly.
21:33 Speaker 04 Yep. If you remember her older son, Henry.
21:36 Speaker 03 Yep.
21:37 Speaker 04 So he does try and invade in eleven forty seven.
21:40 Greg Jenner? In the name of his mum?
21:41 Speaker 04 In the name of his mum.
21:42 Greg Jenner? Oh, that's so adorable.
21:43 Speaker 04 But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge.
21:47 Greg Jenner? That's classic teenager, isn't it?
21:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, you know, and then he comes back two years later, eleven forty nine. And that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. So he doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transfers her claim over to him and he does these little harrys over the next few years. But it doesn't really get anywhere.
22:08 Greg Jenner? Okay.
22:08 Speaker 04 Until.
22:09 Speaker 03 I was gonna say, because he is, he, he becomes Henry the second at some point and he's the start of the Plantagenets, right? So yeah, when does he?
22:17 Speaker 04 So Stephen and Henry make the treaty of Winchester, agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling.
22:23 Speaker 03 Okay.
22:24 Speaker 04 On how to rule. Henry is named as heir.
22:27 Speaker 03 This is mad because her heir then becomes king anyway. So Stephen basically just wanted, he just wanted the throne for a bit.
22:34 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
22:34 Speaker 03 He wasn't bothered about his.
22:36 Speaker 04 Dynasty.
22:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, his dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job.
22:40 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
22:40 Speaker 03 But then I'm gonna give it to your son.
22:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
22:42 Speaker 03 He just didn't want Matilda to have it.
22:44 Speaker 04 Yeah.
22:44 Greg Jenner? Yeah, well, that's interesting, isn't it, right? Is, is there something to that? Is Cariad right? It just doesn't want a woman on the throne.
22:50 Speaker 03 Yeah.
22:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, that is potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what we, what you expect to see of women at this point. We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England. But there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey of Montju, they don't like Matilda's husband. They're worried about foreign influence. If, um, she becomes queen, like, what's his rule gonna be? Is she gonna like rule in her own right?
23:15 Speaker 03 Bypass that.
23:17 Speaker 04 Yeah.
23:17 Speaker 03 But then they install his son, who must be.
23:19 Speaker 04 Yeah, of the same lineage.
23:21 Greg Jenner? But he's still a man, Cariad.
23:23 Speaker 03 He's a man, he's a man.
23:24 Speaker 04 And that's much more acceptable to them.
23:27 Greg Jenner? King Stephen died in October eleven fifty four. Henry the second becomes the king, so Matilda's son on the throne.
23:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
23:34 Greg Jenner? And Matilda gets to be what, queen mum?
23:36 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a.
23:39 Greg Jenner? Is she sort of the Kris Jenner here? Is she kind of a mumager?
23:42 Speaker 04 I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely. She rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time. We've got letters from the time that showed that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected. So for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in eleven fifty five and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later after she's died, but she still brings all her experience to the fore.
24:12 Greg Jenner? So Matilda dies in, in what, eleven sixty seven? And she's about sixty five.
24:16 Speaker 03 Wow, she does well.
24:17 Greg Jenner? And she dies in Rouen in Normandy.
24:19 Speaker 04 Yeah, and she's buried at the Abbey of Bec, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son. And it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.
24:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, she does end up in power.
24:39 Speaker 04 Yeah.
24:39 Speaker 03 But not as high as maybe she would have hoped for.
24:43 Speaker 04 Yeah, and Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well, her husband Geoffrey. So she kind of just go, go to her own.
24:50 Speaker 03 And Henry the Second is the first Plantagenet king, is that right? So she starts a dynasty.
24:54 Greg Jenner? She does, yeah.
24:55 Speaker 04 Yeah.
24:55 Greg Jenner? And a really good dynasty in terms of the name of the mission.
24:58 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenants.
25:00 Greg Jenner? All the way up to Richard the Third, yeah.
25:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
25:02 Greg Jenner? The Nuance Window!
25:08 Greg Jenner? Okay, time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Carrie Ed and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys that we've mentioned, while Dr Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Gabby.
25:25 Speaker 04 So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious, maybe they focus on what we call soft power. But actually, these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. But going beyond Matilda, we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry.
26:06 Speaker 04 So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power. It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty. Women are very capable of exercising power. They do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency. It's not just something that's soft. Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it. But we do see women leading armies in this period as well. So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule. Not all power is vested in one man.
26:51 Speaker 04 It's shared with his mum, in the case of Matilda. It's shared with his wife, it can be shared with his daughters or, you know, sometimes with other men. But, you know, with governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think. They're not just there to give birth to children and they do quite well.
27:12 Greg Jenner? Thank you so much Gabby, fascinating.
27:14 Speaker 03 Yeah, amazing, absolutely amazing.
27:16 Greg Jenner? Listener, if you want more medieval queens with Dr Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor Aquitaine, featuring Carriad's ostentatious castmate, Rachel Paris. For more Carriad, obviously we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War. But that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend, let's call it the Anarchy is a whole other thing. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the fantastic Dr Gabrielle Story, thank you Gabby.
27:48 Speaker 04 Thank you, great in Carriad, well done for not throwing any chairs around.
27:52 Greg Jenner? It was a very placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever brilliant Cariad Lloyd. Thank you Cariad.
27:58 Speaker 03 Au revoir mon sirre, as they would have said.
28:02 Greg Jenner? Yeah, I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking sounding. It was much more harsh Norman.
28:07 Speaker 03 Oké, madame.
28:09 Greg Jenner? The Caesar K's in Norman French.
28:11 Speaker 03 This can knife is sharp.
28:12 Greg Jenner? Yes. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me. It's mine, all mine. Bye.
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