Adam Grant: The Science of Why We “Vibe” and How to Build Lasting Connections | Relationships | E422

Adam Grant once struggled to build real connections, often watching conversations stall after a single question. Now, as social skills fade and people replace face-to-face interactions with social media and chatbots, building genuine human connection has never felt harder. In this episode, Adam draws from his new book, Vibe, to unpack how mismatched expectations can create disappointment and conflict, even in relationships that seem strong. He also shares how understanding the four relationship wavelengths (associates, allies, pals, and companions) can help entrepreneurs set healthy boundaries, resolve conflict, and build stronger friendships and business partnerships. In this episode, Hala and Adam will discuss: (00:00) Introduction (01:37) Why Modern Human Connection Is Declining (05:12) Skipping Small Talk for Meaningful Connections (07:13) What It Really Means to Vibe (08:45) The Four Wavelengths of Relationships (11:45) Navigating Real-Life Relationship Scenarios (32:45) Why Strong Friendships Don't Need Constant Contact (37:13) Building a Diverse Circle of Support (44:51) How Men and Women Connect Differently (46:31) How Small Gestures Strengthen Friendships (52:10) Hosting Events That Build Genuine Bonds Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist, a #1 New York Times bestselling author, and a professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He has been Wharton's top-rated professor for seven consecutive years, and his research explores motivation, leadership, and human connection. He hosts the podcast Re:Thinking and co-hosts The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown. His latest book, Vibe, explores the science of building meaningful connections in an increasingly isolated world. Sponsored By: Indeed - Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com/profiting Shopify - Start your $1/month trial at Shopify.com/profiting. Northwest Registered Agent - Get a complete business identity with Northwest. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/YAPFree and start using free resources to build something amazing. HeyGen - Create AI avatar videos without constantly being behind the camera. Get your first three videos free at HeyGen.com/profiting. Life at the Speed of Play - Learn how to test ideas quickly and identify the ones worth pursuing with Mark Pincus’s book. Get two books for the price of one at getmarksbook.com/yap. Whatnot - Grow your business through live shopping, community, and real-time connections with buyers. Search Whatnot, W H A T N O T, in the App Store and start selling today. MOD - Connect with licensed medical providers for modafinil to support sustained energy, focus, and alertness. Visit MOD.com for a free consultation and get 10% off your first order plus free shipping with code PROFITING. See the website for important safety information. AG1 Next Gen - Support your nutritional foundation with vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and superfoods. Get a free Immune Support Bundle with your first subscription order at DrinkAG1.com/PROFITING. Resources Mentioned: Adam's Book, Vibe: bit.ly/AG-Vibe Adam's Website: adamgrant.net Active Deals - youngandprofiting.com/deals Key YAP Links Reviews - ratethispodcast.com/yap YouTube - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Newsletter - youngandprofiting.co/newsletter LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala Social + Podcast Services: yapmedia.com Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com/episodes-new LinkedIn Creator Club - Skool.com/linkedin-creator-club Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship Podcast, Business, Business Podcast, Self Improvement, Self-Improvement, Personal Development, Starting a Business, Strategy, Investing, Sales, Selling, Psychology, Productivity, Entrepreneurs, AI, Artificial Intelligence, Technology, Marketing, Negotiation, Money, Finance, Side Hustle, Startup, Mental Health, Career, Leadership, Mindset, Health, Growth Mindset, Love, Dating, Marriage, Breakup, Trust, Communication, Boundaries, Compatibility, Intimacy, Therapy, Conflict, Commitment, Couples, Dating Apps, Love Languages, Heartbreak, Attraction, Dating Coach

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hala Taha?

  Today's episode is sponsored in part by HeyGen, Shopify, Life at the Speed of Play, and Indeed. HeyGen helps you create AI avatar videos without constantly being behind the camera. Get your first three videos free at heygen.com/profitting. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you grow your business. Start your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com/profitting. Life at the Speed of Play by Mark Pincus helps entrepreneurs quickly test ideas and find the ones worth pursuing. Get two books for the price of one at getmarksbook.com/yap. Indeed helps you attract, interview, and hire all in one place. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at indeed.com/podcast.

• 0:45Hala Taha?

  As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes or at youngandprofiting.com/deals.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  The whole point of social media was to get us to interact with other humans. But most of us now are basically watching TV alone on our devices. We had our neighbors over. We had our colleagues over. That used to be the way that we got to know people, and now we're basically dining alone.

• 1:09Hala Taha?

  The why do we connect so easily with some people and struggle with others? That's exactly what we're exploring today with organizational psychologist and bestselling author Adam Grant. We're diving into his new book, Vibe, to explore the science of human connection and how to build stronger relationships in life and business.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  People who go to one friend for everything, for all of their companion, ally, and pal needs, are less happy on average than people who go to different friends for different things. Because they end up having a more diverse support system, they're part of a community.

• 1:40Hala Taha?

  You also get this really cool concept that came from penguins called pebbling. Tell us about that.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  There are some penguins that when they're courting mates, they go collect these little pebbles, these shiny, smooth stones, and they present them. And the digital human equivalent of pebbling is...

• 1:58Hala Taha?

  So two friends have supported each other for many years. One of them makes introductions, always advises her friend. But when the other lands a promotion, engagement, or financial win, the friend makes subtle digs, minimizes the achievement, or redirects attention to herself.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Ouch. Your frenemies are actually unhealthier for you, on average, than your enemies are. I think you have a few options with that ambivalent relationship. One option is...

• 2:24Hala Taha?

  Adam, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Thanks, Hala. I'm glad to be back.

• 2:29Hala Taha?

  So you've been spending your entire career basically studying what makes people successful. And now you've really focused your attention on connection and relationships. You've got this new book, Vibe, which I absolutely loved. And essentially, you give these alarming stats and research around why we're losing our ability to actually connect. So let's start there. What is making connection so difficult?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Well, I think that we can have successful and failed interactions. And unfortunately, we seem to be having more failed interactions than we did in the past. I think social skills turn out to be like muscles. If you don't exercise them, they start to atrophy. And psychologists have shown this for a long time. We know that when astronauts come back from the International Space Station after months away, they sometimes struggle through their conversations with people back on Earth. We know that when prisoners come out of solitary confinement, they have a harder time making a connection with the people that they meet. And we saw that this was true for all of us coming out of the pandemic, that we got a little rusty. We had more moments of awkwardness. We struggled to think of what to say.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  And I think the unfortunate consequence of that is a lot of people have started to retreat. It's really easy to feel like you have a connection when you're commenting on social media. But you don't necessarily really even know the person you're interacting with on the other end. It's easy to feel seen by your chatbot, but it doesn't feel anything back. And so I think we're starting to substitute simulated interaction for the real thing to avoid the friction and discomfort of maybe failing. And as a result, we're depriving ourselves of the most rewarding interactions we could have with real humans.

• 4:14Hala Taha?

  And there was things that like really like stuck with me in your book. The fact that adults are eating dinner more alone more often than ever, that teenagers are hanging out with their friends less than ever. Talk to us about like, what are some of the symptoms that you're seeing?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Derek Thompson has, I think, captured these probably better than anybody else who's tracking the trends. And he just highlighted two others that I think are really concerning. One is that the whole point of social media was to get us to interact with other humans. But most of us now are basically watching TV alone on our devices. I mean, short-form TV. It's not even, it's not even long-form. It's a reel at a time. And that's pretty solitary. He also has highlighted, brand new, it turns out, that hosting has gone way down. 70%, 71% fewer hosted dinners and gatherings at people's homes. And that used to be the way that we got to know people.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  We had our neighbors over. We had our colleagues over, and now we're basically dining alone.

• 5:16Hala Taha?

  And you yourself said that you struggled making connections. You always knew that you loved people, but you found yourself in college feeling like, man, like, I don't even know if I have real friends.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  I definitely struggled with interacting with people when I was younger. I think part of that was just being a shy, nerdy kid. Even my friends made fun of me by calling me Mr. Facts. And I didn't realize at the time that was foreshadowing my future career as a social scientist.

• 5:42Hala Taha?

  Turned out to be great.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, my job is to be Mr. Facts. Sign me up for that. But, you know, when we were hanging out, trading sports cards, and collecting comic books, and playing basketball, they didn't think it was fun to hear me rattle off statistics all day. And I found myself just, you know, trying to meet people, but really having a hard time even knowing how to... What does effective small talk look like? I remember going into class and saying, "Hey, did you see Friends last night?" And the person across from me says, "Yeah, it was funny." Complete end of conversation, no opportunity for connection.

• 6:19Hala Taha?

  Yeah. And so how did you end up changing that? Like, what was your first foray into building effective connection?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  I was really lucky to have Professor Brian Little, who became my mentor. Brian's a personality psychologist and is kind of like a cross between Robin Williams and Patch Adams. He would deliver these electrifying lectures. But he would plant these, these little curiosity gaps. And afterward, I would come home from class, and I couldn't wait to tell my roommates what I'd just learned. And my roommates were mostly math and computer science majors, and they were not interested in psychology. But Brian would give me these little tidbits, and I'd come out of class and say, "Hey, did you know that if you sprinkle lemon juice on your tongue in the morning, if you're an introvert, you actually salivate more than extroverts do?"

• 7:11Speaker 01

  They immediately got interested, and they said, "Really? There's science for that? Tell me more." And it was a great, it was a great lesson in the fact that we can change the routines that we use to interact with other people. We don't have to stick to the standard social scripts. You don't just have to say, "Hey, how are you?" Like, "Let's comment on the weather. Let's talk about how awful traffic is." We can actually have real conversations with people, even if it feels like we might be going a little bit deeper than we were taught to. And I've increasingly learned that it's powerful just to skip the small talk. I don't, I don't bother anymore, Hala, to ask people when I meet them, "What do you do?" A lot of people don't love their jobs. It's alienating. They don't want to be defined by their work.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  What I really enjoy asking is, "What do you love to do?" And just watch them light up.

• 8:01Hala Taha?

  I love that. I love that tip for like networking events and things like that. So that story you were just telling with your friends was really about you finally vibing with your friends, right? So tell us, what is vibe to you and what is not vibe to you? And what does it mean to truly vibe with people?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot of people, when they use the term vibe, they say, "Oh, this place has great vibes." Or, "I love her vibe." But a vibe is more than something a person or place gives off. It's the energy that comes out of interacting with other people. And I think about a great vibe as a high-quality connection. It's where we feel like we click, we have chemistry, we're building toward closeness. A bad vibe, we have, we've kind of been ships passing in the night. We're not on the same page. And, you know, I think that for a lot of people, you know it when you feel it, right? You could walk out of a conversation and say, "Wow, we were really vibing." Whether that was a first date or a great brainstorming meeting. But we can actually trace it in your body.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Neuroscientists find that when people feel like they're vibing, their brainwaves and their heartbeats start to synchronize. So their bodies are literally moving in coordination. And I think that's what, what the feeling of a vibe really is traced to.

• 9:18Hala Taha?

  I just love this concept. Like, I was just devouring your book because I feel like it's so actionable and it's so like refreshing, because you actually talk about relationships as like, not necessarily a ladder. Like, when we think of relationships, we often think like, okay, how do we move like from acquaintance to best friend? But you really say there's four different types of wavelengths, and you can kind of like mix and match them. And there's like, kind of like nuances with it. So why don't you first walk us through the four different wavelengths of relationships?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's talk about associates, allies, pals, and companions. These are basically the four important kinds of people in your life. And I think associates are probably the least meaningful for most people. They're, they're people who basically are in your life because they fulfill a need for you, or you address a need for them. So it might be the neighbor that you carpool with when your kids need to go somewhere. It might be the painter that you pay, or the carpenter who fixes up things that are broken in your house. And you don't have to have an emotional bond with them. You know you can rely on them when you need them, and they can address your issue. I think that meaningful connections are the other three. I think of them as allies, pals, and companions.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  So allies are basically people who share your goals. You're on a mission together. They're the people you would love to start a company with, launch a project with. They usually have complementary skills, and they make you better than you could be alone. Pals are people who share your interests. You basically have fun together. These are the people that you might want to invite to play pickleball or to go do karaoke together. They, they make you laugh. And then finally, your companions are people who share your values. You have deep affection for each other. These are the people who you might confide in when you're going through a challenging situation. They provide you support. They offer compassion. They console you.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  And I think that the big aha that I had when I was studying these different types of connections is it's not inherently better to have one or the other. What matters is, are you on the same page with other people about the kind of interaction you're having or the type of relationship you're trying to build? So if I see you as a companion and I start to tell you about my childhood experience of being bullied in elementary school and you think we're just pals, like, whoa, TMI, back off. You should not have told me that. And it, it feels like it's a little bit inappropriate. If I see you as an ally and I'm really excited to collaborate with you and you think that we're supposed to be pals

• 12:04Speaker 01

  and you're joking around all the time, I might get annoyed. I'm like, get with the program. We're trying to get things done. Stop procrastinating. And so I think that being on different wavelengths is a recipe for being disappointed, sometimes even feeling betrayed by other people. And we want to try to get aligned sooner rather than later.

• 12:24Hala Taha?

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• 13:08Hala Taha?

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• 13:32Hala Taha?

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• 14:16Hala Taha?

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• 14:42Hala Taha?

  What's up Yap fam? You guys know we love reading on this show, so I'm always excited when I find a book I genuinely think is worth sharing. Life at the Speed of Play: Launch Products People Love by Mark Pincus is one of those books. Mark is a legendary Silicon Valley entrepreneur and investor, and this fast-paced 170-page book is his playbook for testing ideas quickly, navigating uncertainty, and figuring out what's actually worth pursuing. One of my favorite concepts is what he calls the abyss, those moments when you feel stuck or unsure of what's next. Instead of fearing uncertainty, he shows you how to use it as a tool for discovery. Right now, Mark is doing a buy one, get one offer for Yap listeners.

• 15:26Hala Taha?

  Go to getmarksbook.com/yap, buy one copy for $32 and get a second copy free. So you can keep one for yourself and give the second to a friend, future co-founder, or someone who needs a little push. I'm definitely going to ask you questions about how we can actually make sure we're on the same wavelength as our colleagues and friends. But first, a way that I want to help our young improfitters really learn this is by going through some scenarios. So I came up with a game called, Are We Really Vibin? And basically, I'm going to go over like five or six different scenarios. And they're going to be like use cases that I think we'll really learn from and then ask some follow-ups. And then when I give these scenarios,

• 16:09Hala Taha?

  you can let us know, you know, what kind of wavelength are they on? Do you recommend they change anything? Do anything, set boundaries? Or how can they improve the connection?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 16:20Hala Taha?

  All right. Scenario number one, the co-founders who are not friends. Two co-founders have built a multimillion-dollar business together over seven years. They trust one another, they divide responsibilities well, they always have each other's backs professionally, but they rarely socialize. They know little about each other's personal lives. They wouldn't choose to vacation together. One of them worries their partnership lacks chemistry because they aren't friends.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Ooh, okay. So this sounds like a great ally connection. And I think one of the founders associates closeness with having also a pal or companion bond. And the other doesn't seem concerned about that. So I think that's a conversation worth having. You don't have to be friends with your co-founders. You definitely do not want your company to be a family. Right? What matters first and foremost if we're going to work together effectively is we are allies, meaning we, we basically have agreed on what we're trying to accomplish. And we've also figured out what the right path is to do that. And if we're, if we're aligned on that, we don't need to be hanging out outside the office. We don't need to be goofing around.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  We don't need to know each other's families or each other's personal lives. But if one person is worried that the relationship is suffering, that's a conversation to have. And I'd say, look, this is why I think this is a great ally bond. This is why I don't need to be, you know, pals or companions with you. And at some level, it's easier because I think about, for example, Hala, Noam Wasserman's written about this in his research. There's a common phenomenon where when friends start a company together, they often fail because they put the friendship ahead of the business. And so they're afraid to have difficult conversations. They don't want to cause conflict. And ultimately, they end up protecting the friendship until the business fails.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  And then the destruction of the business destroys the friendship too. And so I think being just allies is a perfectly reasonable and sometimes even healthier way to operate.

• 18:25Hala Taha?

  Yeah, and it still can mean that you support each other. You, you attend birthdays and weddings and like, you can still support one another, but not necessarily be so like intimate in each other's personal lives.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Well put. I should have said that. Much more succinct.

• 18:41Hala Taha?

  Okay. The best friend who only shows up for fun. Two women have been best friends for a decade. They travel together, they laugh all the time, they celebrate milestones. But when one faces a breakup, job loss, family crisis, the other one tends to disappear. But once things improve, she returns as if nothing happened.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Great pal, bad companion.

• 19:03Hala Taha?

  Do you recommend that they have some sort of conversation to get on the same page? And, and would you consider that friend a bad friend?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Not necessarily. I think the first question to ask is, do you need that person as a companion in your life? I think a lot of people assume in order to, in order for us to be really close, especially if we want to be best friends, we have to connect on every wavelength. We need to be pals and companions. We might even want to be allies and associates too. But that's not effective in every relationship. And it may be that the kind of emotional support you're seeking is not the kind that your close friend is good at providing. And so it's possible you could just say, you know what? I'm happy having that person as a pal. If you're looking for the emotional closeness that, you know, she would be there as opposed to disappearing when things go wrong, then yeah, that's a conversation to say, hey, this relationship is really important to me.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  I'm seeking a particular kind of companionship from you, which by the way, I also work really hard to provide and I want to be there for you as that kind of friend. And I want to talk about, is that an expectation that's reasonable for us to have in this relationship?

• 20:08Hala Taha?

  I feel like that's really great advice. That way, you know, you can decide to kind of pull back. Like, okay, I'm not going to help her next time she gets, like, has a breakup or something because she doesn't want to provide that support to me and I don't want to have this imbalance that makes me feel bad.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  I think that's utterly fair.

• 20:25Hala Taha?

  The boss who thinks they're best friends. A woman has worked for her boss for five years. The boss has mentored her, promoted her, but now the boss invites her to personal dinners, shares intimate relationship problems, and expects weekend plans. When the employee declines, the boss questions her loyalty. The employee values the professional relationship, but not the added intimacy.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  My colleague Nancy Rothbard wrote a research paper about this that's called, OMG, My Boss Just Friended Me. I think this is, this is a potential, well, it's an ally or associate who is kind of crossing over into pal Vader territory, maybe even crossing a boundary to try to become a companion to. And I think if that interest is not reciprocated, or if the power differential makes it too uncomfortable, I think it's fair to sit down with the boss and say, hey, I, you know, I try to keep a strict boundary between my professional life and my personal life. I, you know, I appreciate the enthusiasm you show about,

• 21:31Speaker 01

  about getting to know each other better. I, you know, I want to obviously make sure I'm not missing out anything on anything that is relevant to us being successful together at work. But I'm really going to try to keep everything work-related at work. And I hope that's okay with you. And if it's not, we should talk about how to manage it.

• 21:52Hala Taha?

  And I love this concept of a pal Vader. Tell us more about that.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Okay, my oldest daughter Joanna coined the term. She calls someone a pal Vader when somebody who is an acquaintance, or an ally, or an associate, suddenly starts treating you like they're your pal. They violate boundaries. They might, it might be a colleague who texts you outside of work, and you start thinking, why did I give that person my cell? We are not on a texting basis. They start inviting you out to lunch, or dinner, or to hang out. And it's, I think it's intrusive, because it changes the expectations for what the relationship was all about. If you want to be pals too, great. If you are content to not be pals, or you really don't want to be, the invasion is happening.

• 22:39Hala Taha?

  What is like a polite way to not be, like, decline wanting to be a pal with someone?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  I would really like to know that, because I have fumbled my way through that conversation a few times. I think, you know, the honest conversation-

• 22:53Hala Taha?

  Quiet distance?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. I mean, some people just end up ghosting that person, because they find the conversation too awkward. And I think sometimes it is hard to have. But what I've tried to do, and sometimes even gotten positive reactions to, is to say, look, you know, I just, I like you a lot. I don't have time for more friends in my life. And I already feel like I'm, I'm barely keeping up with my existing friendships. And so adding a new one is just something I don't have space for right now. But, you know, it's, it's basically, it's not you, it's me.

• 23:29Hala Taha?

  And another idea that, that I have is maybe like, doing some sort of like, community work with them, or organizational work that allows you to like, hang out, but like, align to some sort of mission. So it's not necessarily like, you guys have to like, bond over hobbies. You can bond over something else. So it's like, community work, for example.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  I think that's a great solution. I think anytime you can join a club, or a group, or an activity together, not only does it add a purpose, but you also have other people around you. So it doesn't create the same expectation that you're going to have one-on-one interactions with somebody that you do not want to pal.

• 24:03Hala Taha?

  Okay, next one. The brilliant coworkers who can't stand each other. So two senior executives are opposite. One is creative, spontaneous, emotional. The other one is very analytical, structured, and blunt. They argue, they never socialize, yet their joint projects always deliver the best results. The CEO considers separating them because their relationship is dysfunctional.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Well, it sounds like those are people who are supposed to be associates or allies, but they've actually become adversaries.

• 24:31Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  What do we do with them? We have a few options. One is to separate them, and just say, look, these people don't work well together. We're not going to force fit it. A second is, we're going to try to do something that I did once at a tech company. So I got this call from a Fortune 50 tech company, and they said, we have new managers coming in. They're building new teams, and they're really struggling to vibe with them. Can you help us? And I ended up launching this experiment that dramatically reduced their conflict in the first 30 days, and in some cases, even for the first three months. What I did was I had the new managers share their triggers. They talked about the things that just really set them off, that caused them to fly off the handle and lose their cool, basically

• 25:17Speaker 01

  the things that make them really angry, or really anxious. And some people get very specific with their triggers. We had managers say, my biggest trigger is when someone has inaccurate sports knowledge. Really? That's the thing you care about? Yeah, it really pisses me off. Okay, I'm glad, I'm glad to know that. And what happens is, when people know what your triggers are, one, they're less likely to, to actually push your buttons. And so they avoid causing conflict in the first place. And two, when they do sort of accidentally step on one of those landmines, they know, oh, you are not angry at me. You, that's just something that's a pet peeve of yours. And so they're able to make sense

• 25:59Speaker 01

  of the situation a little bit better. And I think that when we work with other people, we're going to find out what their triggers are eventually, anyway. We might as well accelerate the process of, of knowing, what is it that brings out the worst in you? And how do I avoid being that person? So I might sit these two down and say, let's walk through their triggers, your triggers. Let's learn about each other's triggers, and then avoid pushing each other's buttons as much as possible. And then I think it's time to separate them, one of them, when one of them says, yeah, my biggest trigger is the other person. Everything they do bothers me. Okay, that might be a losing battle.

• 26:35Hala Taha?

  What's up, Yap fam? You guys know we love reading on this show. So I'm always excited when I find a book I genuinely think is worth sharing. Life at the Speed of Play: Launch Products People Love by Mark Pincus is one of those books. Mark is a legendary Silicon Valley entrepreneur and investor. And this fast-paced 170-page book is his playbook for testing ideas quickly, navigating uncertainty, and figuring out what's actually worth pursuing. One of my favorite concepts is what he calls the abyss. Those moments when you feel stuck, or unsure of what's next. Instead of fearing uncertainty, he shows

• 27:16Hala Taha?

  you how to use it as a tool for discovery. Right now, Mark is doing a buy one, get one offer for Yap listeners. Go to getmarksbook.com/yap, buy one copy for $32, and get a second copy free. So you can keep one for yourself, and give the second to a friend, future co-founder, or someone who needs a little push. Hello, young and profiteers. If you're running a business, getting website traffic is only half the battle. The real key to profiting is turning those visitors into paying customers. And I know checkout friction can quietly kill your sales. That's why I always say, serious entrepreneurs build on Shopify. Shopify is a commerce platform that helps you launch

• 28:00Hala Taha?

  and run an online store without needing to be super technical. You can build your storefront, manage your business, and make it easy for people to buy. And here's the major advantage. Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition. With Black Friday coming up, now's the time to get your store ready and simplify your checkout experience. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/profitting to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/profitting. Go to Shopify.com/profitting today to hear your first... What's up, Yap fam? If you're building a personal brand, you already know how hard it is to stay consistent with content when you're also trying to actually run your business.

• 28:44Hala Taha?

  I love creating content, but realistically, I'm not trying to sit in front of the camera every single day. I need time to work on my business. But the problem is, consistency matters. The more people see your face and hear your voice, the more familiar you become. That's why HeyGen has been such a great tool for me. You can record just 15 seconds of footage, create an AI avatar of yourself, and use it to make videos on demand. So instead of constantly filming from scratch, you can create more content, stay visible, and keep showing up, without making your entire life be about generating content. And you guys know, I'm always looking for tools that give entrepreneurs more leverage. HeyGen is definitely one of those tools. 30 million people already use it, from solo founders, to 85% of the

• 29:29Hala Taha?

  Fortune 100. Your first three videos are free at heygen.com/profitting. That's H-E-Y-G-E-N.com/PROFITTING. Heygen.com/profitting. You actually give some really great stories in the book about how to like, foster chemistry and vibes with people who have like, different political views, or like, you know, just like, opposing opinions on things, and some of the, the different, like, building things together can help. Talk to us about some of those stories. I'd love to hear them.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  The stories that have, have probably affected me the most deeply are the ones where people start out, not just disliking each other, but hating each other, and then develop a deep bond. I think maybe the most extreme example that I've come across was CP Ellis and Anna Atwater. So Ellis was a white supremacist. He was a leader of his local chapter of the KKK. And Atwater was a black civil rights activist. And they hated each other so much that they'd actually tried to kill each other. And both, both been stopped. Ann once lunged at CP with a knife at a town hall meeting, because he was shouting racial

• 30:47Speaker 01

  slurs. And then CP, at a march, brought a gun, and was planning to shoot Ann and her fellow protesters. But the protests ended up diverting. So what are the odds that these two are even going to have a civil conversation, let alone become friends? Highly unlikely. I think if we saw them today, we would probably dismiss CP as utterly toxic. We'd say, you know, Ann's a little bit antagonistic, and they're hopeless. We'll write them both off. It's a lost cause. But they came together in Durham, North Carolina. And they came together because the school system was being desegregated. And they were both concerned about how that was going to affect their kids.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  And there was a mediator there, Bill Riddick, who had this wild idea. He said, what if we have the two of them co-lead a task force to try to build a plan for peaceful school desegregation? And they didn't want anything to do with each other. They showed up at the first dinner and actually refused to speak to each other. But eventually, when they had this shared task and they were working intensely for a period of, of, it was actually days and days from morning till late at night. They're in this bubble together. They, they kind of break down out of exhaustion and they talk about how worried they are about how their kids are being affected by this whole experience. And they start to melt a little bit toward each other and they go from being

• 32:18Speaker 01

  extreme antagonists who have an adversarial relationship to reluctant associates and then allies. And eventually Anne ends up defending CP and standing up for him when other people are criticizing him. And CP renounces his KKK membership. And Anne's granddaughter grows up calling him Uncle CP. They're so close. Like they've become not only pals, companions, they call each other brother and sister.

• 32:48Hala Taha?

  Wow.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  And I think the big lesson from a story like that, at least if you look at the research on what builds bridges across these kinds of extreme differences, is giving people a common goal and aligning them in an environment that takes them away from their existing group, away from their filter bubble, away from whatever prejudices they have, and forces them to see the humanity in the other person is a great starting point for finding common ground.

• 33:15Hala Taha?

  What a great story. I just like love that example and the lesson with that. Okay, two more scenarios. The friend who secretly competes with you. So two friends have supported each other for many years. One of them makes introductions, always advises her friend, shows up during difficult moments. But when the other lands a promotion, engagement, or financial win, the friend makes subtle digs, minimizes the achievement, or redirects attention to herself.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Ouch. So we have a, we have a friend who's a frenemy. I would call this an ambivalent relationship, Hala.

• 33:52Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  I think most people assume that the worst relationships are enemies. If you have somebody who's an adversary or an antagonist, you want to avoid that person as much as possible. But if you look at the data over the last few decades, what we see is that your frenemies are actually unhealthier for you on average than your enemies are. The more of these ambivalent relationships you have in your life where you have mixed feelings, you, you have positive thoughts about them, but also negative thoughts about them. You appreciate their virtues, but you're also really bothered by their vices. Those interactions take a toll. The more ambivalent ties you have, the greater your risk of stress, also even cardiovascular disease. If you show up to interact with somebody that you have an ambivalent relationship with,

• 34:39Speaker 01

  your blood pressure spikes more, your heart rate goes up because it's unpredictable. It's uncertain. You don't know who's going to show up. Is it going to be Dr. Jekyll? Is it going to be Mr. Hyde? And so you're constantly bracing yourself. You don't know, are we going to hug? Are we going to fight? And all that uncertainty has you constantly on edge. I think, I think you have a few options with that ambivalent relationship. So in the case of this friend who is, you know, kind of, who kind of has your back, but is also sort of stabbing you in the back. I think one option is to say, look, you know, the, the negative interactions are just not worth it.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  And we're going to relegate this person to associate or acquaintance, or I don't want them in my life anymore. However, if you appreciate their virtues, if you value their strengths, then I think what you do is you try to build a more positive relationship. And the best way to do that, that I know of at least, is you try to accept their personality, but you contain their behaviors. So you might have an honest conversation with that friend and say, hey, I value the following things about you. But I've also noticed that when I achieve a success or when I have a, a highlight moment, I feel like you're, you know, you respond with digs or you're a little bit snarky or

• 36:01Speaker 01

  critical and it doesn't seem like you enjoy my success. I'd love to better understand, why is that? Am I doing something that elicits that reaction? And how do we prevent it? Because I don't want to have those kinds of interactions and I can't imagine you do either.

• 36:16Hala Taha?

  Yeah, I feel like this really hits home for me because I feel like I've had a lot of friends that have like done similar things like that to me. And the way that I've been able to handle it is, to your point, like having that conversation. And then you find out that the person actually has like deep insecurity or like they just like, they're kind of like jealous of where you've gone. And like, it's just so, it's like their insecurity is kind of just showing up. And then you know, as a friend, like, well, maybe I just need to be a little bit more caring about hyping them up or like supporting them even more so that they feel happy when I also have success rather than jealous.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I think that's a, that's a great response. And look, it can't be easy if you have friends who are young and not profiting.

• 37:00Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  They're, they're going to see that, they're going to see your success as a little bit of a threat. They're going to feel like, well, she thinks that I'm not as good as she is. Or I always feel like I'm in Hala's shadow. Or it's just a reminder to me of my own failures and shortcomings. And I think sometimes it's best to call out the elephant in the room and just say, hey, look, I, I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine. I had a friend who, a very close friend, who just one day stopped returning my calls. And I occasionally get a text or email, but we didn't talk for years. And it was unusual because we used to talk very frequently.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  And finally, we met up in person and I said, I just, I'm sad and I miss you. What's going on? And I will never forget, Hala, what he said to me back. He said, I'm embarrassed. I said, what? He said, I'm really proud of, of what you've achieved and I'm happy for you. I feel like I don't measure up and I'm not worthy of being in your life.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Look, we became friends long before anyone had any idea what success would mean to us, let alone who would end up pursuing what goals. I don't care what you achieve. I love you for who you are and you're important in my life because of the values you stand for, not the results that you achieve and the job you happen to, to pick. And we have, we have really had no issues staying in touch since then. And I was hesitant to have the conversation and I'm so glad he did because I guess we were both dancing around it, but ultimately he was just bringing some baggage to this table and I didn't see it. And I needed to know that he was carrying it in order to lighten the load on him.

• 38:52Hala Taha?

  And I feel like the frenemy thing really happens like with, with like friends you made up in childhood or in college and things like that. I feel like that's where it really happens because there's like this, people just change and you need to have that communication to understand like what's really going on here.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so often it's social comparison at the heart of it. Right? People feel that you are somewhere that they are not, or that they would like to be, and that becomes envy. Not all envy is bad though. There's a difference. When psychologists study, study this, there's a difference between what's called benign and malevolent envy. Malevolent envy is I want you to fail because I'm threatened by your success and it hurts me. That is not, that doesn't belong in a friendship, period.

• 39:38Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Benign envy, I want what you have. I admire what you have. I wish I could be more like you. It's great to have friends that you see as role models. There's nothing wrong with that. And in fact, I think it's sometimes a healthy dynamic in a friendship to be able to admit it and just say, hey, I, you know, I've, I'm really wowed by what you've achieved and I'm hoping for more of that myself one day.

• 40:01Hala Taha?

  Okay, last one. The friends who haven't spoken in years. Two college friends were inseparable. They shared secrets, supported each other through heartbreak, careers, family and distance intervene. They don't talk for three years. On reconnecting though, they speak for four hours as if no time had passed. And then they go silent for another six months.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Well, those sound like dormant ties. We all have dormant ties in our lives, or maybe not in our lives, but they once were.

• 40:31Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  The people we used to know. And I think when, you know, when a tie goes dormant, a lot of us are afraid to reach out because we think too much time has passed and either the relationship has fizzled, or they don't care about me anymore, or they won't want to hear from me. That is a mistake. If you look at the data on this, when people reconnect, when they reach out to somebody that they've lost contact with, 90% of the time, it ends up being an enjoyable interaction. And so that gut, that gut response you have of, well, some ties are dormant for a reason. No, most ties are not dormant for a good reason. We didn't mean to fall out of touch.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  We got busy. We moved. We changed jobs. We had kids. And I think so often when people just, they put themselves out there a little bit to reconnect, they end up pleasantly surprised by the conversation they've had. Now, if somebody was a close ally or pal or companion, they're probably going to be more excited to hear from you. And it's going to be a little bit easier to rekindle the bond. But even if they were distant before, if there's a reason that you would love to be back in touch with them, what's the worst case scenario? The worst case scenario is you reconnect and it doesn't rekindle your bond. And you are exactly where you were before. They're not in your life, but they weren't in your

• 41:54Speaker 01

  life anyway. So I think there's very little to lose and a lot to gain.

• 41:58Hala Taha?

  Yeah, I totally agree. Something that's related to this that I wanted to bring up is the fact that you can be really great companions with people they don't necessarily talk to or see all the time. Like, for example, I have like three best friends that I grew up with, and we don't live in the same city anymore, but I see them like on all their major birthdays, like or occasions and like for dinner, like at least two, three times a year. And we're best friends, you know, we're chatting, I guess on text. So I guess it's more frequent because we're having like digital communication. But we've got like these like intense periods of time together. And I know that you call that bursting in your book. So tell us about that and why that can really sustain friendships, even

• 42:43Hala Taha?

  if we don't see each other a lot.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think we should mistake the frequency of communication for the depth of connection. Those are different things. And in fact, the test of a close relationship is can you go months or years without interacting and pick up like you never missed a beat? And know that if something important or exciting is happening, or something difficult is happening, that the other person is going to show up for you and you're going to be there for them. Right? You can, to your point, you can be companions who have not been in touch in eight years, but you know, if you pick up the phone and call, they will answer and they will listen and they'll be there to support you however they can. I think the dynamic that you're describing, I love the term burstiness. It, I know it from the

• 43:28Speaker 01

  research by Anita Woolley and her colleagues. And basically, the finding is that in all kinds of great relationships, you see this in collaborations, not just friendships. People don't interact in consistent streams. They alternate between periods of silent time and these intense bursts of activity. And the bursts are happening because people are energized around connecting and reconnecting. They're excited to see each other. They have ideas to share with each other. But then they have to go off and live their lives and do their work and solve problems. And then they come back together and they have something new to bring to the table. And I think that's just a reasonable cadence of maintaining relationships. We all have, we all have a lot of people in our lives.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  We all probably have more people that we like and care about than we have time to check in with every single day. And so I think just relaxing the expectation of, okay, if we don't check in every week, then we must not be friends anymore. I think can relieve a lot of the pressure and the guilt, which we just don't need more of that.

• 44:31Hala Taha?

  Do you recommend that people take an inventory of the different types of relationships that they have? And is there any relationship that you feel like people really need to pay attention to, to live like a happy life?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  So I didn't, I didn't actually realize this until I was finishing writing Vibe, but I think we need a constellation of different kinds of connections. So it turns out that people who go to one friend for everything, for all of their companion, ally, and pal needs are less happy on average than people who go to different friends for different things, because they end up having a more diverse support system and they're, they're part of a community as opposed to putting all their eggs in one basket. And so one of the things that I've had a lot of fun with is I ended up writing a short quiz to try to figure out, okay, what's the most natural way that you vibe with other people? And what kinds of connections might be missing in your life? And as I always do when I write

• 45:25Speaker 01

  an assessment as a psychologist, I took it myself. And I discovered that my go to way to connect with people is as allies. Like when I meet somebody new and I like them, my first impulse is to ask, what are you trying to accomplish this year? What's your biggest challenge? And how can I help? And I realized that I have a lot of great ally bonds, but I didn't have as many pals like who live near me that just enjoy hanging out. I, yeah, like people would say, let's go, let's go have drinks. Nah, not for me. What are we accomplishing here? And having realized that I missed out on that, I've started a pedal league where a bunch of people who also love racket sports get to get together.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  And we just have a blast trying to beat each other, but also learn together. And I think that was, that was missing for me. I think for everybody, that might look a little bit different. But I think it's just worth reflecting on, do you have enough allies? Do you have enough pals? Do you have enough companions? Don't put all of that on one person. How what do you, what do you do most naturally when you connect with people? And what's missing in your life?

• 46:32Hala Taha?

  Well, I recently moved to Austin, like a year and a half ago. And actually, I have like more friends than ever. But something that I was thinking about is that I don't know, other than my boyfriend, I don't know if I've developed any companions here. I feel like I have a lot of pals where like, they're also entrepreneurs. They also might be allies and pals together because we talk about business, we might do business together, but then we go work out and we have coffee and dinner. So I feel like they're allies and pals, but I wouldn't necessarily, like if I needed a ride to the hospital, like I wouldn't call one of them up, I don't think, you know, like, because my best friends live in New York, right? So I think, I think if I could maybe have more companions in Austin, other than my boyfriend, but I'm not even sure I need that. What do you think?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Look, I'm not qualified to tell you what you need in your life. I can't say, but I do think it's interesting. I think that, you know, when I think about what I know about your career and in general ambitious people, like allyship is what tends to come first. It's, it's obvious, right? You're very goal oriented. You know, you need other people to help you succeed. And so you naturally seek that out. And then like at some point, you discover some common interests and you realize, oh, we love the same band, or we both really love hiking or biking. And so you start to develop these kind of pal hobbies together. And if nobody makes a move toward companionship, it might not happen. That

• 48:01Speaker 01

  requires a level of vulnerability. It requires either a self disclosure moment, what's often called a disruptive disclosure, where you say, hey, I haven't told a lot of people this, but I actually trust you enough that I want to share this with you. And you talk a little bit about your cultural background, or a challenge you faced growing up, or something that's causing you anxiety right now. Or if you don't go the self disclosure route, you can also go the, the opposite route of, of asking them, like, tell me a little bit about your defining childhood moments that shaped you. What's your biggest regret? You could swap embarrassing stories. Those are, those are some of the topics that in the research tend to accelerate companionship, but it does require a bit of a leap of faith

• 48:47Speaker 01

  because you're adding a new wavelength to an interaction. It's not been part of the relationship before. You don't know how the other person will respond. And so I always like to start with bounded vulnerability. You share a mildly embarrassing story, not the most humiliating experience of your life. You ask about something a little bit emotional, but not something that might go really deep, really fast. And then you hopefully build from there.

• 49:11Hala Taha?

  How do you think about time with a relationship? Do you feel like more time with someone automatically like builds companionship? Or is it more about like intensity?

• 49:21Speaker 01

  I think on average, the longer you've known someone, the easier it is to be vulnerable with them. And so, you know, having some history, it does make it less awkward to make a bid for companionship. But I've been surprised in the experiments that have been done on this, by how easy it is to just go right to a companion connection with a complete stranger. So in some of these experiments, people end up being randomly assigned to skip small talk and just have deep talk. And one of the questions that comes out in the research is, have you ever committed a crime? That's, that's a big reveal. I haven't, by the way.

• 49:59Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  But, but it turns out a lot of people have something that they want to disclose. And after just that nine-minute conversation of, you know, admitting or not what they've done that was illegal or wrong, people come away saying, I feel close to the other person that I just met. And knowing that there's a mutual interest in, you know, in going deep is enough to open the door. And so I think one thing that people could do more of is when you meet somebody that you might want to engage with as a companion, to just say, hey, I've gotten, I've gotten really tired of small talk. I feel like it's a huge waste of time. And when I spend time with people, I want to have real conversations. I want to really

• 50:44Speaker 01

  get to know them. I want to have a chance to, to open up and, and share something that's personal about me. If you're up for that, I am all in. If not, totally fine.

• 50:54Hala Taha?

  You know, I wonder if there's a different dynamic between women and men. Cause as I'm hearing you talk, like, all my, all the girls that like I go work out with and have dinner with, like, we talk about everything, right? Like, we're telling each other, like, really intimate stuff. I still wouldn't call them if I needed a ride to the hospital. So like, I don't know. I wonder if there's just a different dynamic. Cause like, a lot of, like, I don't really hang out with women that were like, we're not telling each other about our lives. Like, maybe like, if I meet them in passing at a party once in a while, but like, not, not girls I hang out with.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  I think part of what I'm hearing is, you think some of your companions are bad allies or associates, because you're just not sure if they would navigate to the hospital well. But I think it also might be-

• 51:36Hala Taha?

  Or maybe like, I just feel like, it's just too much to ask. Like-

• 51:40Speaker 01

  It's a big imposition.

• 51:40Hala Taha?

  I don't know if they're not. Yeah, yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think that's reasonable. I think you want to be the giver in the relationship. You don't want to feel like a taker. But-

• 51:49Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  I, I also think, you know, there are levels of companionship. And so you may have a bunch of friends who are more distant companions, where you have emotional intimacy, but you don't, you don't make big asks of each other, or you don't maybe confess your deepest, darkest secrets to them. And, you know, that, I think that's possible. I do think there, there are gender differences here. So my read of the research on this is that women have an easier time doing emotional intimacy with their friends than men do. Men kind of show up for an interaction and like, well, what are, what are we supposed to do? We're supposed to grunt in the gym, or in the garage, or at the game. But, real

• 52:30Speaker 01

  talk, kind of hard. And yet, I had the most interesting conversation with one of my coaches, one of my diving coaches from growing up. He told me one day that he preferred coaching women over men. And, yeah, I was a little sad, because I, I wanted, I wanted to be in the favorite group. And I asked, I asked why, why he felt that way. And he said, well, I feel like I never really get to know my male divers. And my female divers, like, I, he was, he sort of became like a father figure to them. And I said, well, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Because if you assume that your male, that your male athletes don't want to open up, you're going to have different kinds of interactions with them. You're going

• 53:12Speaker 01

  to pal around a lot, but you're probably not going to have those more personal, more intimate discussions. And of course, we don't know if they're going to reciprocate or not, but that is a two-way street. And sure enough, in the next few years, he ended up talking a little bit more about some of the emotional challenges that he had. Started with diving, you know, stories like, you know, I got lost in midair and it was really stressful. And guess what? Some of the male divers reciprocated, and they started talking about their fears. And so I think the gender instincts do not have to be a gendered reality.

• 53:49Hala Taha?

  Let's say we want to show someone that like, we really appreciate the relationship. What are some things that we can do to show that like, we want to be better friends or, or build a deeper relationship?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  I think what we need are more signals, like we have in romantic relationships. So, you know, I think millennials and Gen Z would say, we're official, or we're exclusive. I think baby boomers used to say, we're going steady. We don't have this kind of language when it comes to non-romantic relationships, and I think we should. I, I actually did this yesterday. I, I was at an event with, with somebody whose work I've really admired for a long time, and we've had great interactions over the years. But there hasn't been any meaningful relationship that's come out of it. And I just said, hey, I'd love to be

• 54:41Speaker 01

  real allies, and maybe even pals. And he started laughing and said, me too. I don't know that everybody wants to put a label on the type of bond that they're trying to have. But I think these small moves to just signal that you're interested in a deeper connection can matter a lot. And one of my favorites happened last year. I, I met somebody who sent me a cold email, and I loved her work, and we ended up doing a podcast together. And, and then after we interacted, she sent me an email saying, I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship.

• 55:11Hala Taha?

  Aww.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  And I love that, Hala. I thought, going in, I thought, this person could be a great ally. She's really smart. She's really interesting. Her expertise is very different from mine. I'm excited to learn from her. I had so much fun talking to her that I wanted her to meet my wife and my kids. And like, I could see us actually hanging out as families. And her saying, I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship, signaled to me that that was mutual. I don't think I would have, I don't think I would have had the guts to put that out there. She did, and we've become friends because of it.

• 55:45Hala Taha?

  Yeah, I love that. It's like, just, just let the other person know. Like, just make, make the ask, basically. You also get this really cool concept that I love that came from penguins called pebbles. Tell us about that.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Pebbles is the best. So, there are some penguins that when they're courting mates, they go collect these little pebbles, these shiny, smooth stones, and they present them. And it's a way of signaling, yeah, I, I can't read a penguin's mind, but I think, I think the message they're sending is something to the effect of, I would be a good mate. We could build a nest together. And I think that the digital human equivalent of pebbles is when we send somebody else a meme, a reel, or a link, or an article that we think they would love. Now, I want to be clear. I'm not talking about spamming everyone you know

• 56:37Speaker 01

  with random junk from the internet in a giant group text. What I'm talking about is, you've got somebody that you just met, and you really like them, and you had a fascinating conversation about, about how to deal with ambivalent relationships. And then you catch an article about that topic a few weeks later, and you send it to them, and you say, hey, this reminded me of our conversation. And I, I'd love to chat about it with you. What the research on this shows is that when you make that little move, when you send them that pebble, you are making a bid for connection, and you are basically showing them, hey, I paid attention to your interests. I remember what you care about and what we talked about,

• 57:22Speaker 01

  and I'm interested in building on it. And I think every pebble you send is a gesture of care. And what we know from the research is, when you send those kinds of pebbles, it's a great way both to strengthen a bond with somebody that you're just getting to know. It's also a powerful way to reconnect with somebody that you've lost touch with. To say, hey, I watched a movie that took me right back to when we were in college, and I could just imagine being in our dorm, watching it with you. And I, I hope you get a chance to see it. Would love to catch up.

• 57:52Hala Taha?

  It's so smart, because like, especially as we get older with careers and family, you don't often have like, time to actually go physically be with someone, maybe just like, a couple times a year. But if in between, you're sending them little pebbles, then it's basically just keeping that relationship alive. So I absolutely loved that little hack.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Are you a pebble-er?

• 58:11Hala Taha?

  So good. With certain friends, like, we really do, like, pebble all the time, I feel like, certain friends. And other ones, I'd love to like, start doing that more often and being more like, conscious of it. I've got friends that do that to me a lot. So then I like reciprocate, but I feel like I need to-

• 58:25Speaker 01

  To initiate more.

• 58:26Hala Taha?

  Need to initiate. Yeah, I need to initiate more.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  So I've been thinking a little bit about what makes a good pebble. And I, I think there are three, there are three things that really stand out. When I look at my favorite pebbles that I've received, one is just the effort involved. That the person found a meme that wasn't already going viral. Or, you know, they, they looked for something that was uniquely relevant to me. Secondly, that it's really personalized, that they couldn't have just sent it to anyone. They figured out why it was, it was about us, or something we both cared about, that maybe other people couldn't relate to. Maybe it was an inside joke. And then, third, it comes, it opens a door to conversation. It comes with an invitation to follow up. It's not just a, hey, watch this reel. I laughed at it. You

• 59:09Speaker 01

  too will find it amusing. Right? It's, hey, like, this is, you know, this is a topic we could discuss. This is something we could laugh about together. It's a meme that we could then start doing together.

• 59:22Hala Taha?

  So, Adam, we don't have that much time left together. So I wanted to spend the last couple of minutes talking about how we can have better events, especially as business owners and entrepreneurs. Like, how can we actually facilitate a connection when we're the ones hosting? What's your best advice on that?

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Well, I think what we need is better choreography. I think we should come into, whether you're hosting a meeting, or a conference, or a dinner party, we should come in with an idea about what wavelength are we trying to have people connect on. So if we want people to be allies, I would say my favorite exercise is to run a reciprocity ring. Wayne and Cheryl Baker invented it. It's this great exercise where you ask everybody in a room to write down a request for something they want or need, but can't get on their own. And then you just challenge everybody else to use their knowledge and their networks to try to fulfill the requests and sign up where they think they could be helpful. Immediate opportunity for people to solve each other's problems. And people are often blown away

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  by how helpful either a complete stranger might be, or that they were able to solve the problem with somebody they knew well, who never even bothered to tell them that they were trying to help their neighbor find a job. So I think on an ally channel, what we're trying to do is basically create opportunities for people to help each other. I think if you want people to be pals, you need an idea of what shared fun looks like. And I'll give you a very small example of what this might involve. I was, I was hosting a gathering recently, and I showed up, and my wife had told me, she got me this shirt to wear. And I put it on, and I walked in. It was a, it was a shirt, actually kind of like this. It

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  was like a plaid flannel shirt. And every single person in the room was wearing one. And we all started laughing and it led to this hilarious conversation about, do you, do you love plaid? And I was like, I don't, I don't dislike plaid, but it's not, it's not a special thing for me. Why are we all wearing this? But it opened us up as pals right away and we had something to laugh about together, especially the people who had to scramble because they didn't own a single plaid item. But they got the memo and they wanted to follow through. But it was just a little moment of shared fun. And then we followed it up by having people debate whether a hot dog is a sandwich. And people got so into this, they were laughing

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  hysterically. One pair ended up agreeing, no, a hot dog is not a sandwich. It's a taco, a soft taco. I mean, who would not feel like pals after having that conversation? And then if you want to create a companion dynamic at your gathering, I think you have to create some norms around people showing vulnerability. I went to an event last year where one of the exercises was draw a picture, there were about 15, 20, maybe 25 people in the room. Draw a picture of your childhood home. Circle a room in the home that means something to you personally. And then take the next five minutes and just write a quick journal entry about what that room symbolizes

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  for you. And then read the entry out loud to the group. People burst into tears sharing those stories and immediate companionship happened afterward. And I don't know that that's the exercise that everybody wants to do at their gathering. But it's an illustration of how if you're thoughtful about, are we trying to be allies, pals, companions, maybe some combination to the above, you're going to plan your event differently.

• 1:02:48Hala Taha?

  That makes me think of like, trauma bonding. Like, basically, how does trauma form, like, help form companionship? Or is that even like, a healthy way to bond?

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  I think that if it were up to me, we would not ever force trauma bonds on anyone. I think, I heard this for years from my students that they thought, well, I'm really close to my fraternity brothers or my sorority sisters. And that's because of the hazing rituals. We suffered together, and therefore, we're, we're close to each other. I have some good news for you, Hala. It turns out that adversity is optional. We actually don't need shared suffering in order to bond. It's not the adversity that brings us closer together. It's the emotional intensity that we've experienced together. People end up, they end up bonding when they go through something that's emotionally evocative and transformational. So they feel deeply in the moment, and then they

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  come out just with a sense that I'm different, or that experience has changed me. And you do not need suffering in order for people to get their hearts racing, and in order to feel affected by an event. In fact, there's, there's research that's come out recently showing, if you just go to a haunted house with someone, as long as you debrief the experience afterward and, and compare notes on your jump scares, it actually brings you closer together because your hearts are racing in unison.

• 1:04:14Hala Taha?

  So Adam, I closed my show with two questions that I ask every single one of my guests. The first one is, what is one actionable thing our young and profiteers can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  I think the easy one is, start reconnecting with your dormant ties. We talked about how enjoyable that can be, but it's also productive. On average, if you reach out to someone you used to know, and you seek their professional advice, you actually get better information from them than if you contact somebody you're already currently in touch with. Because your dormant ties have been traveling in different circles. They've been learning different things, meeting different people, and they can open up new opportunities and perspectives that you were missing.

• 1:04:55Hala Taha?

  And it's also like, a great insurance policy. Like, if you're keeping in touch with someone, and then you really need their help, they're more likely to help you if you've been keeping in touch, not that you haven't contacted them in five years, and now suddenly you need a job or something.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. And if you're ever worried, like, I don't want to impose on that person, or I don't want them to feel like I'm using them. Guess what? It's a great opportunity to send them a pebble, or even tell them that you would like to add more value to the people in your life. Like, I'm trying to do more for others. I would love to find out what you need, what your challenges are, and try to help them out.

• 1:05:29Hala Taha?

  And my last question is, what is your secret to profiting in life?

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:05:35Hala Taha?

  You got a lot of secrets on this topic. I feel like that's your whole career.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  I think, here's what I would say on this, Hala. I think, this is maybe one of the greatest ironies of life, is the less focused you are on profiting from your interactions, the more profitable your interactions become. It's a paradox. Like, if you, if you meet somebody, and all you're doing is trying to figure out, what can I get out of this interaction? It's going to end up feeling very transactional. If you converse with them, if you chat with them, if you sit down with them, and you're just genuinely interested in finding out, who are they? What do they care about? What are they trying to achieve? How can you be supportive of them? You're going to end up having a much more meaningful bond. And ideally, that's going to be more profitable for both of you.

• 1:06:23Hala Taha?

  Well, I love that one, especially for today's topic. And I'm sure we'll have you on many other times on this podcast. Adam, it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Before we go, where do you want to send everybody? Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  I guess they could come to adamgrant.net and take the vibe quiz.

• 1:06:41Hala Taha?

  Amazing. We'll stick those links in the show notes. Adam, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Thank you, Hala. Always a pleasure.

• 1:06:49Hala Taha?

  Yap fam, I love meeting people, networking, bringing people together. But even I've walked into a room and thought, why are the vibes so awkward? And after talking to Adam, it turns out, the vibes were directly related to the relationships I had with the people in the room. Maybe I didn't have pals or companions there. Which brings me to the main concept of today's conversation, Adam's Four Wavelengths of Connection. And I wanted to quickly break them down for you guys, because I think we can learn from them. First, we've got associates. They're people that we connect with because we have got a practical reason to. Maybe it's someone in our professional network, a vendor, or a neighbor that we exchange favors with. These are relationships that might not be personal, but they can still be really valuable. And then we've

• 1:07:34Hala Taha?

  got pals. These are people we have fun with. We love grabbing dinner with them, working out, going to events, or sharing a good laugh. But just because somebody is a great person to hang out with, doesn't mean they'll be the person you call during a crisis. And that's where companions come in. They're people that we connect with on a really deep level. They're the ones we can open up to, turn to for emotional support when life gets difficult. But there's another wavelength that I think is especially important for entrepreneurs. Allies are the people we build with, we share goals with, and the people that show up for our common mission. And here's what I found so interesting. You can have an incredible business partner without becoming super close friends. You don't have to hang out with them every weekend,

• 1:08:17Hala Taha?

  or share every personal detail of your life to create something extraordinary together in business. And I think the biggest lesson here is that we get in trouble when we expect every single relationship to give us everything. We expect our pals to be companions, our coworkers to become our friends. And sometimes we overlook the value of a great relationship, simply because it doesn't look the way that we think it should. But as Adam explained, we actually need different kinds of connections in our lives to be truly happy. We need people we can have fun with, people we can build with, and people we can lean on. And expecting just one person to fulfill all those roles can put unnecessary pressure on that relationship. So here's my challenge for you today. Think about the people in your life and the different roles they play. Who are

• 1:09:00Hala Taha?

  your associates, your pals, your allies, and your companions? Do you have a frenemy that needs a conversation? A coworker that needs a stronger boundary? Or perhaps, you're ready to gather the courage to ask your favorite pal to become a companion? Because Yap fam, the key to a profitable life is not focusing on how to profit from our relationships, but recognizing the value of different connections and knowing how to nurture each one. So maybe now is your sign to send that pebble to wake up one of your dormant contacts. And Yap fam, if you want to take this even further, I highly recommend you pick up Adam's new book, Vibe. He goes much deeper into the science of human connection, and how to navigate our differences and create more meaningful connections in our personal and professional lives. Thank

• 1:09:44Hala Taha?

  you so much to Adam Grant for joining us again today. And if you listened, learned, and profited from this conversation, please share this episode, drop us a comment, give us a five star review. And if you prefer to watch your podcast, you can always find us on YouTube, Spotify Video, or Apple Video. You can also connect with me on Instagram and TikTok at Yap with Hala, or LinkedIn. You can find me at Hala Taha. A huge thank you to my fabulous Yap team. You guys are incredible, the hardest working team in the business. This is your host, Hala Taha, AKA The Podcast Princess, signing off.