Haley Sacks: The American Dream Is Dead! The New Rules for Building Real Wealth | Finance | E419

Financial freedom once felt out of reach for Haley Sacks. At her first full-time job, questions about retirement plans and health insurance exposed how little she understood about money. After a layoff six months later shattered her faith in corporate security, Haley gave herself one year to bet on herself, eventually building Mrs. Dow Jones into a financial education brand and writing Future Rich Person. In this episode, Haley shares how entrepreneurs can earn more, invest wisely, manage taxes, curb status spending, and replace outdated money rules with a path to lasting wealth. In this episode, Hala and Haley will discuss: (00:00) Introduction (00:00) Redefining the American Dream and Freedom (08:01) Tradwives, Girl Math, and Money Trends (14:59) Why the Financial System Fails You (16:25) How to Identify Your Financial Barriers (18:31) Social Media’s Illusion of Wealth (24:49) Why Earning More Beats Extreme Saving (31:42) How Skill Stacking Built Mrs. Dow Jones (40:26) Debunking the Outdated Rules of Money (47:41) Tax Strategies Every Entrepreneur Needs (57:31) Reset Your Finances in 24 Hours Haley Sacks, widely known as Mrs. Dow Jones, is a financial educator, entrepreneur, and content creator who blends personal finance with humor and pop culture. She hosts the weekly podcast Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones, produced by Sony Music Entertainment, and writes a newsletter with more than 100,000 readers. She is also the author of Future Rich Person: The New Rules for Building Wealth (Even When You Feel Broke). Haley was also named one of Fortune’s 40 Under 40. Sponsored By: Indeed - Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com/profiting Shopify - Start your $1/month trial at Shopify.com/profiting. Northwest Registered Agent - Get a complete business identity with Northwest. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/YAPFree and start using free resources to build something amazing. HeyGen - Create AI avatar videos without constantly being behind the camera. Get your first three videos free at HeyGen.com/profiting. Life at the Speed of Play - Learn how to test ideas quickly and identify the ones worth pursuing with Mark Pincus’s book. Get two books for the price of one at getmarksbook.com/yap. Whatnot - Grow your business through live shopping, community, and real-time connections with buyers. Search Whatnot, W H A T N O T, in the App Store and start selling today. MOD - Connect with licensed medical providers for modafinil to support sustained energy, focus, and alertness. Visit MOD.com for a free consultation and get 10% off your first order plus free shipping with code PROFITING. See the website for important safety information. AG1 Next Gen - Support your nutritional foundation with vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and superfoods. Get a free Immune Support Bundle with your first subscription order at DrinkAG1.com/PROFITING. Resources Mentioned: Haley's Book, Future Rich Person: bit.ly/FutureRichPerson Haley's Website: mrsdowjones.com Haley's Podcast, Financial Tea: bit.ly/FT-apple Haley's Instagram: instagram.com/mrsdowjones The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel: bit.ly/-PsychologyofMoney Active Deals - youngandprofiting.com/deals Key YAP Links Reviews - ratethispodcast.com/yap YouTube - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Newsletter - youngandprofiting.co/newsletter LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala Social + Podcast Services: yapmedia.com Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com/episodes-new LinkedIn Creator Club - Skool.com/linkedin-creator-club Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship Podcast, Business, Business Podcast, Self Improvement, Self-Improvement, Personal Development, Starting a Business, Strategy, Investing, Sales, Selling, Psychology, Productivity, Entrepreneurs, AI, Artificial Intelligence, Technology, Marketing, Negotiation, Money, Finance, Side Hustle, Startup, Mental Health, Career, Leadership, Mindset, Health, Growth Mindset, Stock Market, Scalability, Investment, Risk Management, Financial Planning, Business Coaching, Finance podcast, Investing

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Today's episode is sponsored in part by Northwest Registered Agent, Whatnot, Mod, and AG1. Northwest Registered Agent gives you the tools and guidance to build a complete business identity. Start using free resources at northwestregisteredagent.com/ yapfree. Whatnot helps sellers grow through live shopping, community, and real-time connections with buyers. Search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store, download, and you can start selling right away. Mod connects qualifying patients with licensed medical providers for modafinil to support sustained energy, focus, and alertness throughout the day. Visit mod.com for a free consultation and get 10% off your first order plus free shipping with promo code PROFITING.

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  See their website for important safety information. AG1 Next Gen supports your nutritional foundation with vitamins, minerals, pre- and probiotics, and superfoods. Go to drinkag1.com/profitting and get a free immune support bundle with your first subscription order. As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes or at youngandprofiting.com/deals.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Every person that you admire financially, Oprah, Warren Buffett, Rihanna, any of these people, first of all, they've definitely made money mistakes. Yep. But they also started the same place that you did, which was at zero. And the only difference between you and them is that they took the time and they believed in themselves enough to learn.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  My guest today is Haley Sax, better known as Miss Dow Jones. She's a finance expert and founder of Finance is Cool. Haley is here to share the new rules of building wealth and show us how to start living like a future rich person.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  I've worked with tens of thousands of people on their finances. And what I've realized is, you know, I can tell you anything about emergency funds and how to invest in the stock market, and it all sounds great, but you're never actually going to make a change unless you unpack your why.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  I'm going to say a legacy money rule, and you give me your take on it.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  No credit card ever.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  I completely disagree. You absolutely should have credit cards. Having a credit card and paying it off on time is how you build your credit score.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  You're an entrepreneur. Taxes, what are some of the things that you feel like every entrepreneur needs to know about taxes?

• 2:23Speaker 01

  I think there's this idea that, oh my God, I'm an entrepreneur. I can just write off everything. This is a write-off, that's a write-off. And there's certain write-offs that make you more susceptible to be audited, and clothing is one of them. I recently switched to being an S corp. But also, what's really important too with taxes as an entrepreneur is understanding.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Haley, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  I'm so excited to be here.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  I'm so happy that you're here and that we get to hang out in person. And before we get into finance, budgeting, investing, you say that a lot of people are getting financial advice for an America that like doesn't really exist anymore. You say that the American dream is dead. And you also say that long live the new American dream. So let's start there. What is the new American dream? Do you paint that picture for us?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  The new American dream is owning your time and having freedom. For our parents' generation, it was so much about being locked into these corporate jobs for, you know, 30 to 40 years. You get your pension. And then there's sort of this light at the end of the tunnel where you're going to have that retirement and your life's really going to start when you're like 65 or whatever. But what I think is that with Gen Z and millennials, we want to enjoy our time now.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  We don't want to be beholden to a corporation because we know that they're not loyal to us. And we want freedom.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, you talk about something called a freedom fund, which I think is like really cool. It's the ability to have money so that you can say no to things.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  Talk to us about the freedom fund. Why is it so important to you as like a principle?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Freedom fund, but also F-U money.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I love that.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is, and I'm sure you feel like that too, because it's, you know, like you're rich, where, you know, the more money that you have, the more power you have, which is why I'm also so passionate about financial literacy and, you know, empowerment for women, because for our, for women, like we couldn't have our own credit cards until 1974.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  I know. That's crazy. Like, it really wasn't that long ago.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  It really wasn't. When the Knicks, I'm a New Yorker, so when the Knicks won the championship this past year, the last time that they had won an NBA championship, women couldn't have credit cards, which was so crazy. I was like, that was like a weird marker for me. But yeah, the, I think it's so important to have money because it allows you to walk away from things that aren't serving you, whether that is a job that you absolutely hate or a partner that you, you know, can't stand, but you feel trapped by. I have a story in my book, Future Rich Person. I asked her if I could include this. One of my best friends, Elizabeth, was in a relationship with this guy, Charlie, who was horrible. And he, but they lived together.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  He was like a horrible boyfriend, like?

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Horrible boyfriend, like actually physically pushed her around a bit.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Just like bad news, kept her really down. Like she just, she lost her sparkle 100%. But they lived together and they had a dog, and he was tall, which I feel for women can really get you where you're like, okay, on paper, though, he's got a lot of these things that I want. And also, like, what do I do if I leave? Like, I can't afford a new mattress. I can't afford a down payment. But she realized like the urgency of the situation and then started to put money away in that freedom fund and got what she calls her freedom apartment, which she is still in to this day.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Good for her.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's above a gas station. It's so small, but it's the best because it's hers and she left. And, you know, that was like a huge moment in her life where she was able to choose herself. And to me, a moment of such financial empowerment that shows you that like, when you have money, it really does give you the ability to choose.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I feel like it's important to say, it's important to have that even if you're in a healthy relationship, even if things are going amazing, you should also have your own money. How do you think about like finances within relationships?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it's interesting because I'm in a relationship and we live together.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  But, you know, what's interesting about our situation is that we actually make similar amounts, which I feel is very uncommon.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  You never really make the same amount as your spouse. So because we make the same amount of money, we split rent 50/50. And I always say, you should always split rent based on income versus just a, you know, percentage 50/50, because one person might be crying into their ramen on the first of the month and the other feels rich, just because money is so relative to how much you have coming in.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  So for us, it works well. But I think the biggest thing is, A, to make money non-emotional in the relationship. So it's something that you can bring up in the same way where it's like, did you take out the trash?

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  What, what are you doing tomorrow? Should we go to that wedding we just got an invite to? Did you pay your half of the rent? Like, it shouldn't be this thing that we're so scared of and emotional to talk about. That, I think, gives it this weird power to control us, and that's about it.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So my boyfriend's actually six years younger than me. So I make more money than him right now, but he's going to be really rich. He's, he's an entrepreneur as well. It's funny to me because when I think about finances, it's like I also want to have like financial freedom. But I have friends where, for me, like, we're about to move in and we're going to split rent 50/50. And like, that's okay for me. I have a lot of girlfriends that like, they'll be like, that is crazy. I would never split the rent. Like, the man has to pay rent. But they're not making, those women are not making as much money as me. So I just feel like they don't understand that it's like, well, like when, when you're a woman who's like the breadwinner, making a lot of money, I'm okay to split the rent 50/50.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  It's interesting because there's all of these articles coming out and data coming out about Gen Z women who are making so much more money than their partners and pulling them along. And I actually have an adverse reaction to when women take care of men versus when a man takes care of a woman.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  It was hard for me. Like, a part of me was like, well, I worked so hard. I want to like stock up my money. I don't want to pay rent. But at the same time, it's like, that's not really fair.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  The way that I look at it is people get into relationships for a lot of different reasons. Like, I have friends who really are solving for a rich guy. And I don't shame them for it because that's what they need to feel safe. You know, a lot of them have come from a lot of financial instability. They're not in careers where they are going to make a lot of money. And in order for them to actually be in a healthy relationship, for them, healthy looks like the guy really taking care of them. And even though that maybe is uncouth and, you know, every, I believe, you know, every woman should have their own money, all these things. I also know that there are exceptions to that rule.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  But when you have financial freedom in the way that I have or you have, we're not solving for anyone to take care of us. We're solving for one thing, and that's love. And that is a privilege.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  And it's something that I take really seriously and I talk about a lot with my partner. And it's really cool that it's like, we're not looking for anything from the other person except for just to be that emotionally supportive partner, my best friend, person I want to build a life with, but I'm not looking for them to take care of me. But that's something that is unique to our situation.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's an advantage because we can kind of pick somebody who really matches our personality, who we really enjoy their time, and not really have to worry about their bank accounts too much.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's okay to, if you're looking for something else. But in, you know, when you really prioritize your financial freedom, I think that that is an advantage.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Speaking of that, like this trad wife trend is so popular. And this, this trend of like being dependent on your husband and kind of glamorizing it, how do you feel about that?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  I talk a lot about stay-at-home spouses. I think it's really interesting because being a mother, obviously, is such a big job. And a lot of women, I think, they have so much on their plates when they're taking care of kids that if they have a partner who then says, I'll take care of the money, it feels like great. One less thing off my plate.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  I'm taking care of the groceries. I've got to figure out the soccer practice. Like, you know, little Sam is sick, you know, all these things that I have on my plate. He's going to do the finances. What a gift. But that's the one thing that you should never give up control of.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  And I think that with trad wives, it's really interesting because they make so much money. So it's this glamorization of a lifestyle that actually is a business.

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• 14:45Speaker 01

  The trad wife influencers.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like they're actually making money by being a housewife, but a normal person not filming their life is not making money like that.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And I don't think that it's wrong to stay home with your kids, but I think that you need to have a spousal IRA, which allows you to put money away for your retirement, even if you don't have taxable income, which is so important. You need to make sure that your name is on all of the assets. And you need to make sure that you're a part of the money situation and that you also have your own money, even if you are like not the earner.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  That you still have money on the side that allows you to leave and to do what you want with no questions.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Totally. Another trend that I see online a lot, and it's been around for a long time, is girl math, right?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Oh, I hate girl math. I'm like the number one hater.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Oh, you hate girl math?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Actually, like I've never bullied anyone online, but I did come after girl math. And then I felt bad because the girl who started it was like, I didn't mean to, like in my DMs. And I was like, girl, like I love you to death, but also like this was bad. Like, we do have to talk about it.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it kind of makes like financial irresponsibility like cute. You know? And like, like it's not a big deal to be dumb with your money. It also makes women look dumb.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Makes them look dumb, but it also is this feminization of being stupid.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Where it's like considered this feminine attribute to be stupid with your finances that really just keeps us so stuck. And I see it a lot on Instagram in reels. And I often will post them and be like, what is this content? Where it's like, you know, a woman pranking her husband by telling him that she's going to pay the mortgage. Or, you know, going to Target and spending $200, but meaning to have just bought toothpaste and like making a reel about that because she thinks it's so funny and so relatable. Just like these moments where it's clear that the woman is not in financial power.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  And that she doesn't want to be. And that it's like cute to not be. And I just really don't think that we should glamorize it.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also, it's like, boys also make financial mistakes. There's boy math, too.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, even if you look at sports betting and prediction markets, people are getting into so much debt, specifically men from that. And it's never looked at the same way as when women spend. You know, women, they tell us that we're so frivolous with money that, you know, we can't hold on to a dollar. We're buying lattes, we're online shopping. And, you know, we're so shamed. But then men will go and, you know, spend $30,000 betting on a parlay.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  And it's just totally normalized.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  It's like really unfair to think about it, that like women can spend money. And for us, it's like a waste. For men who spend money on their cars and whatever it is, it's like seen as like normal.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  It's just crazy how much we're socialized to stand in our own way with our finances. I think that definitely happened to me. And it wasn't until what I call like my aha money moment that I really was like, oh, this is not hard.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Tell us about that.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Well, I think that we all, you either have it or you can really manufacture it. And that's why I love money books and why I wrote Future Rich Person, because I really believe in the power of, I really believe in the power of reading. Wow, brilliant, Haley. But it's like, I read so much and it's changed my whole life. And, you know, it's like a way to really shift your mindset. So if you're someone who feels stuck in your finances and you can't really find that oomph and that motivation, read a money book, try Future Rich Person. If it doesn't work for you, there's so many other great ones out there. But mine's like really personable and funny. I'm a comedian. And so I, you know, it's definitely a page turner. Like, people always message me, like they read it in one day.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  So it's, I don't think there is like another money book like that where you would been treated. So what it leads to is having that money, the aha money moment.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  And for me, that happened when I had my first full-time job. And I was working for Laura Michaels, who started SNL. And the first day, they asked me about 401Ks and health insurance. And up until that point, I had been sort of like girl math-y, not taking my finances so seriously, assuming that, you know, my dad or a boyfriend was going to take care of it and it wasn't for me. And then, but I took my career seriously. And so when I realized that there was a tie between how I would be perceived at work and my lack of financial literacy, it gave me the motivation to then actually understand these topics.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Which then led to me realizing that I could totally understand them. They weren't hard at all, that I had been 100% catfished by the whole thing. And that, you know, financial literacy really just requires like sixth or seventh grade math and some automation, you could be a millionaire. And I became Mrs. Dow Jones, which I obviously took it really far. But, you know, it can come from, you know, when you lose your job and you have to, and you run through your savings and you realize that you have to figure things out. Or a lot of people have their money, their aha money moment when they're at a big life moment. So like, maybe you're having a baby.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  I see that a lot where it's like, it suddenly snaps you into gear. And you're like, I'm an adult, there's going to be another kid, another person relying on me, I need to get it together. Just that moment where you sort of face yourself in the mirror and you realize you can't run from it anymore. And even, like I said, even if you don't have that motivation, you can manufacture it just by taking in good financial content.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  I want to double tap on something that you just mentioned. You felt like you were being catfished. Like, what are the ways that you feel like the financial system doesn't set us up for success?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I mean, well, first of all, The financial system profits off of your ignorance. So they're not motivated for you to understand things. There's no incentive for a bank or for a credit card company to teach you. Because the less that you know, the more that you're going to pay in fees. And fees are what keep the whole financial system going. And fees really come from a lack of understanding. So it's like you're paying, you know, financial manager fees to manage your finances.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Late fees for credit card debt.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Late fees for credit card debt, fees for banks, fees for this, fees for that. And they really add up. And that all just comes from, you know, a lack of understanding that of course, the financial services industry could work on. But instead, they mask everything in so much jargon and, you know, vests and, you know, this allure of Wall Street. And it just feels, you feel so othered from the system.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  That you assume you couldn't possibly be trusted to take control. And so then you hand over the reins to someone else or you ignore it.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  You've got this structural barrier quiz in your book. What are some of the questions that you ask people to kind of unpack whether there's like a real barrier?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I start the book going through your money mindset because I've worked with tens of thousands of people on their finances. And what I've realized is, you know, I can tell you anything about emergency funds and how to invest in the stock market. And it all sounds great, but you're never actually going to make a change unless you unpack your why and what's holding you back. And what are the stories that you're telling yourself about money that are keeping you stuck?

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  And it's funny because I really look at financial wellness, emotional wellness, and physical wellness, sort of in the same way, where I think that you need all three to really live a balanced, good life. But when it comes to emotional wellness, it's so normalized to have a therapist, right? You go to lunch, your girlfriend's like, oh, my therapist said this. I know all my friends' therapist names. It's like Barbara, Hillary, this, that. I'm like, okay, that was a good take that she had this week. Then when it comes to physical wellness, you know, we have trainers. You go on YouTube, you watch videos, you hire someone, you go to a class, whatever it is, you have people who are, you know, teaching you. But when it comes to money, we don't have any of that.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Nobody wants to talk about it.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  No one wants to talk about it. And we are all so stuck with our own shame from not knowing. But what I like to remind people is every person that you admire financially, Oprah, Warren Buffett, Rihanna, any of these people, first of all, they've definitely made money mistakes.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  And I could name so many from celebrities. You know, I'm like an encyclopedia of that, so we can get into that. But they also started the same place that you did, which was at zero. And the only difference between you and them is that they took the time and they believed in themselves enough to learn.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  It's cool that like you can actually make a change and like make a difference. One of the things that I'm noticing online is that a lot of people are like showing off, of course, right? Like social media is a place where people are showing their new bag, their new watch, their new car. Everybody looks a lot richer than they really are. And you've got this really great story in your book. I think the girl's name is like Vera.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Vera, yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Vera? Tell us the story of Vera and how, you know, she looked really rich, but, you know, her bank account said another story.

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• 25:02Speaker 02

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• 26:04Speaker 02

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• 26:19Speaker 02

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• 27:04Speaker 02

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• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was speaking at Harvard and after I did a meetup with some followers, and this girl showed up and I remember noticing her because she just, I totally fell for it, by the way, all of her peacocking.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Really?

• 27:30Speaker 01

  I was like, I loved her outfit. She had like a row bag, she had a stack of Cartier bracelets, you know, she had a fabulous like matching set on, she had designer sneakers. I was like, damn, who is this baddie? Like, this is crazy. And then after the meetup ended, she was like, can I steal you for a second? Can we just get a drink? I like really need to talk to you. So I was like, okay. So then we sat down and she proceeded to tell me all about her debt and how she had just been laid off and her student loans and how she was just basically staring down the bottom of the barrel. And it was like this really dark moment in her life financially. And I looked at her and I was like so confused because on, you know, if you'd seen her on

• 28:15Speaker 01

  the street, you would have thought that's someone who has so much money.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  But it was all a disguise to distract you from what was actually going on with her finances, which I think is sort of the whole theme on social media, is this needing of more to look like you have, like to basically compete with others instead of focusing on actually winning your own game. And the only way that you grow wealth is to spend less than you make and to invest that difference.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  And I call that in the book, action money. And so if you take action with your money and put it in the stock market, you're going to grow a lot of money. But if you take action with that money and go on Revolve or, you know,

• 28:55Speaker 00

  That's my guilty pleasure.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Go on MyTheresa or whatever it is and just buy stuff that makes it look like you have money, you're never going to actually grow wealth. But it's really hard because when you are online, you see 5,000 ads a day. 20% of what you see on Instagram is an ad. Our parents saw 500 ads a day, which is also why I talk about the American dream being dead, because we're also in this hyper-competitive capitalist environment where we're constantly being fought over for our dollars. And then you add in this like Apple Pay, like Apple be paying, and it's never been easier to buy something. And I fall victim to it too. I am

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Bought a dress on Poshmark, like a Roberta Cavalli dress for $200 last night at like 11:30 PM. And Poshmark is so, you can't return. So I'm screwed. And it's like, I hope it's cute, but it's like, did I need the dress? No. Why did I buy it? But it was within two, I'm usually can stop myself, but it was late at night.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  I'm the worst late at night.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so, and then I, I'm really good at printing the label, sending it back. And I always say to people, like, it's not, you're not going to ever be perfect with the purchasing, but it really, you just have to be on top of, you know, getting the money back. And don't be girl math about it, though, when you've got the money back, then you're like, oh, that's free money. Just take the money. But yeah, it's so difficult to hold on to your dollars.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  It is. There's so much to unpack there. Why don't we?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  And by the way, as women too, when you look better, you make more money. So there's also this incentive, like, both of us are on camera all the time, we're in media. You need to have nice hair, you need to have nice nails, you need to have cute outfits. And like, it's part of the gig, but in the same way, it's so expensive and time consuming and addictive. I find it really addictive.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  It's super addictive, especially for people like us that are like influencers in this space, always have to be on camera. I don't want to have, like, I have so much clothes and yet I feel like it always looks like I'm wearing the same thing because it's like something goes viral, then you're in the same outfit. So it is really hard, but pretty privilege is the thing. So do we have to spend a lot of money to take advantage of pretty privilege?

• 31:04Speaker 01

  There's obviously ways around it. Like, I have a friend, Anna Laura, who's so good at doing her own nails. She has the gel kit at home. She does her own microneedling. She's like, just so on top of her at-home beauty. But I think that you don't have to spend on it necessarily.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  It doesn't have to be designer.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Doesn't have to be designer. I think it, but I think it is important to look put together.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  You know, my pole assist Katie is here and I always use her as an example. She's definitely listening and rolling her eyes, but she always looks really put together, but she does it in a way where it is very discreet. So you would never be able to say, oh, Katie was wearing this thing. You're just with Katie and like, she looks like she's polished. So I think that's really, if you have a lower budget, the way to do it is to go to the stores like Zara or Mingo or these like, Marshalls has great stuff, like, lower-priced stores and find things that aren't trendy and then build a wardrobe around that is really the key. But you can't really get around the power of being well groomed.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  It's true, but people like us, I think it's more of a problem of like, this like, for me, and this is like horrible, but like, sometimes like, I'd rather go on Revolve and buy stuff instead of looking in my closet and seeing like what I have.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Well, the new tag feeling.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  It's like, I'd rather just look on my computer and be like, I want this new thing, instead of realizing that like, I've got a big closet of all this stuff that I could just like, be creative and put together an outfit.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Oh, I would like to wear something new every day.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  That would be the dream. I think about that, like of all these fantasies about if I was uber, uber wealthy, like if I was Lauren Sanchez rich, like, who would my stylist be? What would I be wearing? What beauty treatments would I get if there was no ceiling? You know? And it's like, sort of blows your mind when you let your mind go there.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  Well, the good news is that you could buy what you want when you work hard and you're an entrepreneur, to be honest. Like, I just feel like for me, it's not about saving or not spending on what I love. I just think about like, how do I make more sales? How do I get more clients? How to grow my network bigger?

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Well, that's really the key. I love that you bring that up because I talk, I have a whole chapter dedicated to that in the book called, Secure the Damn Bag. I'm so sick of the advice, especially for women, being how to save more.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  I hate saving. Like, I love saving, I love having savings, but I feel really oppressed by the couponing culture. I remember when I first started my financial journey, when I had that aha money moment and I didn't really know where to look, finding myself on a blog that was talking about re-washing paper towels.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's like this intense form of deprivation that was so not glamorous. And that's sort of why I started Mrs. Dow Jones, because I wanted it to feel aspirational to grow wealth. But I really think that for women especially, we need to focus on making more versus cutting down less. Of course, you can't outwork a bad diet, you can't outwork a bad budget, like, there's limits to it, but overall, I think women are severely underpaid. We don't ask for enough and that focusing on having more money is so much better than putting all your energy into scrimping.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  I totally agree. And I think it's for men too. I think the key is like, how do you actually release the ceiling that you have? In my opinion, I feel like if you have the personality for it, everyone should be an entrepreneur and start their own business and figure out how to make more money and not just figure out how to, you know, penny pinch, because I don't think it's going to be $5 coffees or, like you said in your book, skipping the avocado toast that's going to get us rich.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  No, not at all. It really isn't. And even you know, with your journey in media, where it really came down to you owning, ownership, where it was owning your show, owning other people's shows, like, that's really what put you in a position of financial power. And I think, Jen, that is part of the new American dream, is that it's not that people want to not work. Of course, there are people like that, but it's really about being able to work from anywhere, having the flexibility, having your time back, and then also being in control.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  And with AI, to be honest, the traditional job is going to go away anyway. So you better start getting used to selling your skills and figuring it out on your own.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  I agree with that. And I do think that there is this intense moment that we're going through right now of self-reliance, where it used to be that you could sort of hide under the cloak of a company for all those years and they would protect you. And I remember this from my own life, that, so I was working for Lorne Michaels and I thought, sort of in that old American dream way, that like, I was going to be in this system, in this company forever, and that I was safe. It was this huge sense of relief because up until that point, I had been grinding, had been working for myself, and it felt like this, you know, quantum leap to have gotten this opportunity. And I, you know, then six months in, I got laid off.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And before that, I had been making a lot of content, but I'd been working at a Pilates studio, I was a babysitter for a kid named Winthrop, I was, you know, making videos for brands, like, I was really doing anything that I could to just like, put the dollars together, but like, nothing had really hit yet. But I was just, I was in my early twenties, I was grinding. And I remember after that moment, thinking, okay, I can either, I was working for, you know, in comedy, so I thought, I can, I can go and, you know, get on my knees and beg for a job at like, a Comedy Central or something that's similar. And at that point, I think I was making $40,000 a year. It would have been the same amount there.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  They would have owned all my IP and I would have had to work really hard for no guarantees so that someone else could give me permission to do what I wanted to do. Or I, let me take a year and see what I can do on my own. And so I got a job where I was writing videos for the music company Fuse.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Okay. I always got a job at Fuse too.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  They were giving them out, girl. They were the best. They were really, I'm like, God, like, thank gosh. I know, like, but they really had my back. Like, it was the best. And it was only like, three days a week. And I go, and I didn't really know much about music, but I'd be like, writing for all these like, rappers and, you know, punk artists and whatever, and just like, making viral videos for them, which, you know, was my bread and butter. And then working religiously on Mrs. Dow Jones as well, every day posting, waking up, like, I couldn't go to sleep every day, I remember, until like, I had done my work for it. Like, I was so focused on the grind. And then by the end of that year, I was in the New York Times, which then shifted everything. Yeah. And then a few months after that, the pandemic started, which was this other boom time for digital media. And so then the career, you know, really started to take off.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  But it was because I bet on myself instead of going back into that corporate structure. And it's not to say that everyone can be an entrepreneur, but I do think that part of the new American dream really is. Working for yourself because there's no ceiling how much you can make.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  I have another series called How We Profit where basically I interview like people who aren't famous, but have big businesses and kind of unpack their business models. And I was interviewing this guy, Rami, and he said something that was really interesting. When he decided to be an entrepreneur, he was actually in med school. And he drops out of med school and he was like, all of my doctor friends are taking like low paying, free fellow, or I guess it's low paying, but like fellowships.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  My sister's a surgeon and everyone, they're so broke. It's so crazy.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  And so he's just like, people are okay when they're going to be a doctor or a lawyer, or like whatever, to take like a free internship, a low paying fellowship. But nobody's okay with like, working for free for a year for yourself.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so true. That's such a good point.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, so he made this reframe, I'm gonna do a fellowship of entrepreneurship.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 39:16Speaker 00

  And that I'm just gonna see what happens and give myself three years. Because fellowships in med school were three years. I'm gonna give myself three years to figure it out. And if I don't figure it out in three years.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I'll go back.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  I'll go back.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  That's so genius. I love that.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so like, having this reframe, especially if you're young, you know, twenties, even thirties, thirty-five, like, you've got some time. Go try to figure it out and see what you can sell, see what you're good at. Yeah, it's not age dependent.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you have one life. So if you're miserable, like, and you have that dog in you, go get it.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  I want to go back to your story. I'm writing my first book.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Oh, congratulations.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  It's hard, right?

• 39:55Speaker 00

  It is so hard. Oh my God, it's so hard to find time. I'm actually hiring a lot so that I actually have time to just work on content. I'm building offices and studios, writing this book. It's so much, it's exciting.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  I was so valid my time during it, like I had to do it all the weekend.

• 40:09Speaker 00

  I'm already delayed, like I was supposed to have my proposal done this month. It's not going to be till the end of the year, like I'm, I'm, I don't know, whatever. But hopefully it comes together because it's a long process.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  It'll come together. It's like a compounding thing where you have to do some every day. And it's like running a marathon or something like that where it's like feels so great at the end, but when you're in it, you're dying.

• 40:27Speaker 00

  I'm excited because I feel like it'll be like so big for my brand. But one of the main things that I talk about and that I've talked about for years is this idea of skill stacking.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I love that.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  So I, when I first started my career, I worked for, I'm actually from this area too. So I used to work at Hot 97.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I love that. I love Hot 97. That's my freaking jam.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  Really? Yeah, so I was Angie Martinez's assistant for three years. Yeah, and so it's like, I was her like right hand. I did all her research and like was like following her around for three years. And then I went into marketing and corporate and I started my podcast eight years ago, like as a side hustle. And then like quit my job, started my business, all this stuff. And I look back at like, why am I a top 100 podcaster? How am I running a top network? And it's all the past experiences that like accumulated. And I feel like when I was reading your story, I was like, oh my God, she's like the perfect, another great skill stacking example. Because it's like you wanted to be in entertainment and comedy. And now like you're a social media personality, author, like all these things, talking about finance,

• 41:31Speaker 00

  but still kind of doing what you always wanted to do, but just in a different way.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  So many people, the first thing they ask me is, oh, did you work in finance? And I would never have been able to build Mrs. Dow Jones had I left school and then gone into banking or something like that. I needed to have had, A, so much rejection because I was a comedian. And so you're doing stand-up, I'm doing improv. You know, when you're an entrepreneur, when you're on social media, you get rejected every day. It's basically getting a report card every time that you push out a video. And it's like, did I do well? Did I not do well? And you have to be okay with it and be able to put out another one tomorrow.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  And then I also think it's like, the money part of it was actually the easiest part to learn and to, you know, grasp. The rest of it was, was, were the skills that I really had to build, which was, you know, digital media, learning how to package content, learning how to be on camera, learning about hooks and, you know, the pacing of things and subtitles and all these. When you just watch videos, you don't see everything behind the scenes, but it's very sophisticated to make videos at the level that I do. And so, you know, that all came with skill stacking a hundred percent.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  And how do you feel comedy has helped you?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  It's so much.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  Talk to me about that.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Well, I think that, okay, I think that I was, I had a natural born, really deep interest in pop culture and money. And so that's like my secret sauce because, and that's also what my audience loves the most from me.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  So much has gone viral, like you talking about the Kardashians. Okay, I love that.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Which is sort of cool when what people like from you is what you like to do. And so I'm really passionate about that too. So I love that that pops off and I'm like leaning more into it. Because I think for a while I was like, oh, to be like a serious financial expert, I shouldn't talk so much about celebrities, even though I love celebrities. But then I was like, who cares? This is spinach in a brownie. I mean, as we talk, there's like breaking news that Harry and Meghan are moving back to the UK.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  And so, which will be like old by the time people listen to this. But, you know, there's always a financial angle to any of these big stories that then I can use to teach people. So, you know, for them, people are wondering, oh, are they going to keep their house in Montecito? And with a little bit of research, I learned that they have this mortgage that's under 3%. And so then I can use that story that already has legs, where people are interested in why they're moving back, and talk about, are they going to sell their house? Here's why they shouldn't. Because when you can borrow money at a lower interest rate than you can make investing it, then that's called good debt. And like some debt is good, a lot of it is bad. You know, and explain it through that lens. And so I'm still teaching you a really smart thing, but it's just I'm doing it in a way that I'm interested and you're interested.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  Passion is contagious.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  Like that is a great rule for social media, being knowledgeable is super important. And I think the future of everything is going to be like, what is the intersection of your passions? And how do you create something, sell something that is the intersection of all your different passions? So you're also really funny in your videos.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm not being funny at all today, but like you're like serious. So I'm like being vibes with you, you know what I mean?

• 44:44Speaker 00

  You feel like I am a little serious.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  You are. Okay, we're like being like real. And so I'm like, okay, I'm being, but it's like funny when I'm not being funny. And then I'm like, I'm a comedian, so I'm gonna like prove it. But yeah, but I was always so jokes, like so ham, whatever. And that's like, I feel like the secret sauce of it is just being funny. And also I learned so much from my comedy training. Because I did do training of, I was in UCB, like writing so much. All, like I did so many years of understanding joke structure and how to write sketches and all these things, which I bring back to the videos now. So it was all full circle. And it was all those skills that came together to make this unique thing,

• 45:27Speaker 01

  which I feel so lucky for because it's so much work, but it is so fulfilling. And it's something that springs me out of bed. And I know the goal for everyone is retirement, but I'm like, I'm down to be Mrs. Dow Jones forever.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I heard that you want to be Mrs. Dow Jones forever.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  I know. I'm like, well, like I really do. Like I love doing it. I love my audience. And I feel like so much of financial advice is focused around where you're at in life. And so like even, you know, I'm in this really serious relationship when I think about, we're gonna, we're buying a car, we'll get married, we're gonna have kids, like all these things, where then it's taking the audience around, you know, on that ride.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Evolving with you. And I mean, like your followers are following you because they love your personality, they love your advice. Do you feel like you have mostly female followers?

• 46:11Speaker 01

  I have a mix. So I actually started, because I think I started, I started talking about crypto and stocks. And then it became more like personal finance holistic advice.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  It started, I started with a more male audience, but now it's definitely more female skewing.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. How long ago did you start everything?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Like 27, 2017, 2018.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  And what platform did you start on?

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Instagram.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  So 2017, 20, okay, we started around, I also started everything 2018.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  So I'm like, it was not an overnight success, girl.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  No, yours was not. When do you, when did you start getting traction? How many, how long?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Steady.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like you got some wins along the way.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Like it was clear that I was on the right track and I love doing it, which I still do. Like I have such a thirst for financial knowledge, which is like the same thirst that I have for pop culture. I have for financial knowledge and advice and like news. And so it keeps, that's like what you were saying about passion being contagious. I really am addicted to all of that and I read so much. I read every personal finance book that comes out. Like I just like, I'm obsessed with teaching people about money and how people teach people about money. And then like breaking down the form and like trying to do it better.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Now I realize that like you were the first one out of all these girls that came. So it's like you were before Tori Dunlap, you were before Vivian too, that Erica girl. How does it feel? Because before that, the financial influencers were Dave Ramsey and Suzy Orman.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but also none of them were social media first.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  So like when I started, no one was making videos. There were no, there were not, influencer wasn't a job. Financial influencer certain was, it certainly wasn't a thing. So I was just like doing it because I wanted to learn about money. And I was like, I don't like this financial advice that I'm getting, but I love pop culture. If you can explain 401ks versus IRAs to me using Kardashians, I'll listen. So then I made that content thinking, okay, there's got to be someone out there who also feels like that. And there was. But it wasn't like, oh, making a brand, I'm gonna be a mogul, like, like, no, none of that.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Okay, so I want to play a game with you. We're talking about new influencers, financial advice, the, the new gurus, but there's also a lot of legacy money rules out there. So I'm going to say a legacy money rule and you give me your take on it.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm going to give you one from Dave Ramsey. It actually went super viral. He said, no credit card ever.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  I completely disagree, and I disagree with a lot of his advice. You absolutely should have credit cards. Having a credit card and paying it off on time is how you build your credit score, and that allows you to lease cars and, you know, get a good interest rate and, you know, get mortgages and, you know, open new credit cards that will give you rewards and then you can use those rewards to, you know, get perks like free flights. I think it's so important to have a credit card. That being said, if you're someone who struggles to stay within the bounds of your credit limit, there are ones with lower credit limits that you can get to just sort of build that skill set

• 49:21Speaker 01

  so that you don't overspend and accrue credit card debt, which of course is not something that I ever stand by.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I actually fell into the trap of no credit cards ever. I had credit cards when I was younger, and then when I started my company, I didn't have any personal credit cards. All my credit cards were in my company's name. And I remember I was already making, this was like five years ago, I was already making like $400,000 a year, $500,000 a year. And I remember I went to go get like a nice apartment in Manhattan, and they wouldn't give me the apartment because I had no credit. And then that's when I was like, oh my God, I like, I need to open up credit cards. I thought I was being financially savvy and smart, and it was not smart at all.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Yeah, you definitely should have credit cards.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  Buying a home is always smarter than renting.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Disagree. I'm a millionaire. I rent. I think that it's very dependent on your financial situation and also where you're going to buy. So like, in a place like Manhattan, if I rent an apartment and I invest that down payment money in the stock market, I'm gonna make much more. And if I buy an apartment and then try and resell it for profit, which by the way, what profit by the time that you take out the dishwasher that you had to replace and the HVAC and all the maintenance and the decorating and the renovation and the this and the that, when you actually sell the place, it's not much money left over. So I really, really believe in renting. I think you got amazing flexibility.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  I don't think that it sacrifices this idea of home. I think a lot of people think that in order to be an adult, you have to own your home. That's not true.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  What about the psychological safety of owning a home, like especially, like for me, like, I feel like when I'm 65 or 70, I really want to make sure that like I have a home that's paid for. So like, if anything happens, like at least I have shelter.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Something that I think about a lot with money is, you know, that's when I talk, in the book, I talk about like your money relationship from when you're a child. Like, that's the first part of it. And yes, you can heal that, but we're also all carrying things that make us feel safe or not safe. And so if owning a home really makes you feel safe, even if it's maybe not the right financial situation, you should do it.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  You just have to make sure that you're also investing in the stock market because you can't look at your domicile as your ticket to financial freedom and retirement.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  You can own a home, but then you also need to be investing because that is what is actually going to pay for your retirement.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like be ready to put down a down payment while you still have money available for investing and saving. It's like, maybe you don't need to buy a home at 30 years old. Maybe you could buy a home at 40 years old.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, there's this book called The Psychology of Money that I feel like a lot of people talk about. And the whole book is financial advice. And then in the last chapter, he explains how he doesn't take all the advice. Because actually what makes him feel safe is having a bit more money in savings and, you know, keeping more in cash than you're supposed to. And like, that's what helps him sleep at night. And I think that's really important is to sort of take your own financial litmus test and say, okay, this is right and that's wrong, but what about for me?

• 52:36Speaker 00

  For me, something I have never bought in a home yet, but I'm actually going to be buying commercial real estate.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Oh, awesome.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  So I'm buying like a building that's gonna have tenants where I like rent out, like, the office downstairs to somebody else, build out my studios and office upstairs. And it's like, I could easily just lease a place, but I'm like, you know what? I can have my company pay me rent instead of me paying another company rent and like build my wealth through my organization.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Totally, and own an asset.

• 53:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's like, I'm not really excited about buying a home because I can't do the same thing with my business. I feel like it's really interesting to me to buy commercial real estate.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I like, and especially in a place like Austin, where it's just, I'm saying, where it's all about where you're at.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  And everything like that.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Like, I couldn't do that in Brooklyn.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  No.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  But, you know.

• 53:22Speaker 00

  It's one of the reasons why I moved, to be honest.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Totally, and better taxes.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. For me, like, there's so much opportunity in New York, so I stay here. But like, I get it. Like, it's, you know, awesome to move to a no-tax state.

• 53:34Speaker 00

  College is always a good investment.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  I don't think this is true at all.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  I think that trade school is a great investment where you're, you know, going to learn something specific that's going to pay you money. But we see these private colleges charging over $100,000 a year for tuition. And I just can't in my right mind tell someone to take out $400,000 in student loans for a degree that you don't even know how useful it's going to be. That being said, I think that when you're a young adult, it's so amazing to be around other young adults who are figuring things out. There's such an opportunity there in terms of your growth. There's a small percentage of people who maybe reached 17 or 18 and they're ready to go out in the world, and they should.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  But otherwise, I think that it's great to look at a college that is less expensive. Go in-state. Do that for a few years, and then if you want to get that fancy degree, try and get good grades and transfer to the college where then you're gonna graduate with that degree, but you don't have to pay for all four years.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Yep, that's so smart.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and see if you can get, you know, scholarships and things like this, but you shoot yourself so in the foot by just automatically thinking that you need to pay that much for college.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's more about thinking about colleges as like the experience of college, not necessarily like the degree that comes out of college. Because that degree, for the most part, unless you're like, you know, gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer, it's not gonna really do anything for you. Like, that's not really how the real world works anymore.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  Okay, so let's talk about taxes.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm really good at them.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  Are you really?

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:15Speaker 00

  I honestly, my podcast is called Young and Profiting, and, and some people who don't follow my work, they don't understand that it's like, it's really an entrepreneurship podcast. And like, I hate finances, actually. And finances and taxes, like, to me are like one bucket.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  They are. Well, because, you know, making money is one thing, but preserving your wealth is a whole other thing. And it's so important to focus on both.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  So let's like do a deep dive on like, you're an entrepreneur, taxes. What are some of the things that you feel like every entrepreneur needs to know about taxes?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Well, one thing I will say is that you shouldn't be writing off clothing. I think there's this idea that, oh my God, I'm an entrepreneur, I can just write off everything. This is a write-off, that's a write-off. And there's certain write-offs that make you more susceptible to be audited, and clothing is one of them. I think it's really important to get a great CPA and to understand how your business is set up. You know, like, I recently switched to being an S corp, which is, has, you know, saved me a lot of money. But also, what's really important too with taxes as an entrepreneur is understanding the tax-advantaged retirement accounts that you have at your disposal. Because it's very expensive to run a business in this country. They take a lot from us.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  So much.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  It's crazy. But one thing that they do give us, it's not much, but are these tax-advantaged retirement accounts that you can actually put more into than if you had a 401k. So like the SEP IRA can put over $70,000 into it.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  Every year or? Every year.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what that means is, say you make $500,000. If you put in $70,000 to your SEP IRA, you are only going to have $430,000 of taxable income.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Got it. So basically, it, it removes that taxable income and then you can pull that money out whenever you want.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  When you're in retirement.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  But you'd get a tax when you pull it out.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  It'll be taxes, ordinary income, yeah. So it will be taxed then, but it's growing that whole time. And if you're smart, when you pull it out, hopefully you have a good CPA again, who will help you get into a lower tax bracket in retirement, so that you're not paying so much on it.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I feel like I have that, but I don't, I don't think, I feel like I would know because I would know if I'm putting in 70k.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  There's all these, I mean, I was looking at a tax hack yesterday that lets me put 156k in through the new structure of the S corp.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  So, so there's all these, you just need a good CPA, I would say.

• 57:44Speaker 00

  I actually was just, literally was slacking my team today, like, because I haven't been meeting with my CPA, my team. I was like, I need to meet with the CPA and ask some questions.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  But that's the thing, is like, you try an offhand thing.

• 57:54Speaker 00

  You can't.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  But with your finances, you always have to. And even if it's annoying, you still have to do it.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  And also get a CPA that you don't hate. Like, the first CPA that I had, I hated.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  So you didn't want to ever take calls?

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was the worst. Like, I freaking hated her. I can't even tell you all that. And so I just woke up one day and I was like, this is my choice. Why am I working with someone that I don't like? Like, this is holding me back. So find a CPA that you can actually vibe with. I know it sounds crazy because accountants are dry, but, you know, they exist.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  Let's go back to write-offs. So as an influencer, what do you feel comfortable writing off? Like, can you write off clothes for being an influencer, or you're saying, no, never?

• 58:34Speaker 01

  You can to a certain extent, but I just, I think there's other write-offs that are better to focus on, like subscriptions and electronics and your rent and things like that. Versus clothing is a bit harder to prove. There's this famous, Tax story about this woman called Chesty Love. And she was a exotic dancer. And she got implants to become, I think, like a 34 triple F. Like her boobs were huge. And when tax season came around, she was like, okay, yeah, I want to write these off. And, you know, they, I think, accountants and everyone were like, no, that's not a write-off.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  And it went all the way up in the courts. And they decided that it actually was a write-off. Because her implants were not usable in everyday life. Right? Like, they were a costume for her job. And so the same thing would be true if I was a pilot and I bought a pilot outfit. You know, because I'm not wearing that every day. That's, or I'm a clown. And I buy a big red nose. That's a costume that, you know, that makes sense. But if you're an influencer and you're buying that dress, who's to say?

• 59:55Speaker 00

  That I won't wear it to dinner.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  You're definitely wearing it to dinner. And so I think it's just a little bit more of a gray area. But again, it is dependent on your CPA. I prefer to focus on other write-offs besides clothing. I, of course, write some clothing off, but I don't want to be audited. And so I would rather use those other deductions.

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, when you say that you can write off rent, do you mean like a portion of your house for like your home office?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, home office.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  Okay, that's for sure.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  So I have an actual office, and so that's obviously a write-off.

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  And then.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Outside of your home.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  And next door. And then I have my office at home, which then is also tax deductible.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  What are some other things that people should think about regarding taxes? Like, and.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  I think the biggest thing with taxes really is the tax advantaged accounts. Like, understanding how to put money aside so that it brings down your taxable income. That's like the biggest hack. When it comes to the deductions, that's assuming, I'm assuming you have a lot of entrepreneurs. So they're taking itemized deductions. So that's, you know, its own beast. But I, I would also say to be wary of spending money as a write-off. Never let that influence your spending. Spend in the way that's appropriate for your business. And then afterwards, let the chips fall where they may.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, you don't want to spend $100,000 to save $25,000.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  No, not at all, which a lot of people do. I mean, when you look at like charity galas, you know, like the Met Gala is a charity gala. And people are like, oh, my God, yeah, it's a tax write-off for people to do that. But the only write-off is after the fair price of the ticket. So, you know, between renting the Met and the entertainment and the cost of your plate, maybe it's a, you know, $20,000 ticket at fair market value. But then they charge it for $30,000, so you're still spending 20K. Maybe you got a $10,000 write-off, but you're still spending 20K.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  As an entrepreneur, something that I think about, so like, I take out a good salary. My, my business partner Kate takes out a salary. We've got employees. And then like whatever cash that we have left over in the business at the end of the year gets massively taxed. One of the reasons why I left New York is because I lost literally 50% of my money in 2024. After my, and I, we had such a good year. We made so much money. And then I had to hand over so much money to the government and it made me sick.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  And I was like, gosh, like, I should have spent that money. And so now I'm always thinking about before the end of the year, what can I spend in marketing to grow my business? So, for example, like I have a podcast network. I grow and monetize 50 other podcasts. So I think about like, well, for a long time, I wasn't giving out like advances. Now, if I want a podcaster, I'm like, fuck it, I'll give them an advance. Because it just helps me like, kind of like, spend money at value. I know I'm going to make money off that podcaster. And then I kind of like, keep like delaying when I get that money, but I know it's coming. And so I'll think about like, what conferences can I sponsor? What, like, what marketing can I spend?

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  So that I'm not left over with all this cash that just goes to the government at the end of the year. Do you think that's a smart way to go about it?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  I think that's so smart.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Because you're adding value to your bottom line.

• 1:03:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  I think the smartest thing that you did was moving.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Like, genius.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  Do you ever think about moving?

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  I do, but it's hard now because I, like, I think I'll stay in New York. And it's a big cost to pay.

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  And Dow Jones is like in New York, right?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm not affiliated with them, but they are here.

• 1:03:32Speaker 00

  I know, but like, I just feel like you're like, your brand is so New York.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  I know, but it's, it's a big cost to pay and I, I hate it. But it's, it is what makes sense for me right now. Like, I pay a hefty price to be here, but like, I grew up here. I think there's so much value in your social network. And I have such a big network here. And so that would be hard to give up. But I think a lot about living like halftime in Miami, but I think it's just different now because I have a partner. I was single for so long, I probably should have done it then. But now I'm like screwed because I, my partner wants to be here too.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, and same point we were talking about before, like, just you got to make, like, you got to make more money. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you could just make more money to live the lifestyle that you want, no matter what city you live in. Like, there's plenty of really wealthy, successful people who live in New York and make it work.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it does suck. Like, I, whenever I look at my bank account after they take out the quarterlies, oh, my God, I'm like.

• 1:04:33Speaker 00

  It does suck. It's been awesome. Like, I've been able to, that's why I can buy an office now. Like, buy like a huge building.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  So happy for you.

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Thank you. Before we go, something that I want to ask you is like, for everybody tuning in, what do you want them to do in the next 24 hours to level up their finances?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  I want you in the next 24 hours to drop an anchor and have a money date. Because I guarantee the majority of people listening to this, especially it will be six weeks from now. So summer will be over and they probably have a summer spending hangover. And they don't really know where they're at. They haven't looked at their bank statements and their credit card statements for the last, you know, how no, I don't know how long.

• 1:05:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  So look at the last three months and that will give you so much momentum. It'll take, you know, 15, 20 minutes. Look at, you know, subscriptions you can cancel. What are your big spending categories? Where are you at? Where are you bleeding? And then that gives you the information to know where you want to go. But what you measure will never grow. So it's so important to drop an anchor and actually understand where you're at if you want to grow wealth.

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  And what are the ways that people can implement more friction in their lives? So that they don't like, we're, it's so easy to just spend. Like, we were just talking about, like.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Apple Pay.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, one of the, one of the things that I do is like, I'll be scrolling at night. And like, I'm so susceptible to ads that I get at night.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Night is so bad.

• 1:06:01Speaker 00

  Two clicks and I just buy what I want. Like, I just buy whatever or like, I'll find myself like doom scrolling on Revolve.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I did do that last night.

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Like, so.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  I'm like, I've already looked at all the new in and I'm not buying any of this. What am I doing?

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's so funny that like, if for some reason, like, it asks for my like CVC code and I don't know it, it's like, fuck it, I'm not going to buy this.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Then you forget it. I know, it's so crazy. Well, so what I do a lot, I didn't do it, obviously, with the Poshmark dress, but they got me good.

• 1:06:32Speaker 00

  Hopefully it fits.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Hopefully it fits. I think it will. But what I do is A, remove my cards from Apple Pay. That helps a lot. But I also wait, try and wait three days before I make a purchase. So there's actually this app in Asia where you can buy things, scroll, buy, add to cart, and then check out. And then it just like never charges you and you never get sent anything. And I'm like, I sort of get that because I love.

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  Say that again?

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Like, it's like, it stimulates shopping. But it's not, you're actually paying for anything.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  Oh, so you can like pretend shop?

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Because shopping is so fun. I love shopping. Like, I'm going to Greece tomorrow with my best friend. And we're going to Amoros, which is this little island. But we're going to Athens for a few days before. And it's like, what I most, like, one of my favorite things in the world is like, having a day where I'm off work and I'm with one of my best friends and they have good style. And then we just like leisurely bop into stores. You like hope for that special moment where you find that dress or that pair of sunglasses. And it's just like, you've made your own money and you can buy that thing for yourself. It's the best freaking feeling. But then sometimes you get home and you're like, why did I buy a hairbrush? Like, I know it's like a cool hairbrush, but I have four other hairbrushes. But it's like, no, I just wanted that feeling. So I would say, wait three days before you pay, remove the Apple Pay.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  So many freaking influencers. And also try and train your algorithm. Like, that's a lot of what I do online with like my likes is I'm sending them places where it's going to send me more business content versus like shopping or food content. And sometimes I actually go on Instagram and like customize it if it's too much. Because A, I don't cook that much, so why am I seeing so many food videos? And B, like, I don't need to see like all these girls with insane style who like are as good at dressing as I am at, you know, being Mrs. Dow Jones. So you're seeing the best of the best. And it's like, makes me feel bad and then I want to dress and be like them, but I'm never going to even get close to it. So I, yeah, I unfollow a lot of people.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  I feel like you can also like go into, I know for like especially my like business credit cards, you can go in and like set a limit.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, set a limit is good.

• 1:08:44Speaker 00

  Because they might give you a really big limit, but you can set your own limit. And then if it declines, you're like, oh, shit, I spent way too much money this month.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all about just having a goalie. And then, you know what the best thing is?

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Buy a printer.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  A printer.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Buy a printer and print the freaking label. Print it the moment that it, like, that's the best thing.

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  Like, to return?

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, return. I'm doing returns all the time because it's like.

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  That's like my assistant's number one job is to return my stuff.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  It's like that, but that's okay. Like, as long as it's going back. Like, it's like, obviously it would be better if you weren't buying in the first place. Same here, but it's like, get it out. If it's not perfect or whatever, get it out.

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  Love that. I end my show with two questions I ask all my guests. What is one actionable thing our young and profiteers can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  I would say the best thing you can do to be more profitable tomorrow is ask for more. Like, raise your prices.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  Raise your prices, yeah.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Raise your prices, cut clients who are sucking you dry and not paying you enough. Like, audit your time so you're actually being paid what you deserve for what you're putting in.

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I totally agree. And what would you say your secret to profiting in life is? This can go beyond finance. I know you're Miss Dow Jones, you love talking finance, but what is your secret to profiting in life?

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  I think it all comes down to my relationship with myself. Like it really is that I have a good relationship with myself. I bet on myself. And I, you know, work on improving myself and loving myself and like that has built so much equity in who I am and allow me to go out in the world and chase my dreams. And nothing for me, like we said, has happened overnight. Not my business, not my book, not my relationship. Nothing has happened overnight. Everything has taken me through so much darkness first. And so I think that, you know, we always see those images of like the root of a tree.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  And it's they go so deep. And then finally you see it spring up and be this beautiful thing. And when you're on social media or whatever, you just see the beautiful thing, but you don't see the root. So work on your root. And even if it doesn't feel like you're getting anywhere, just make little bits of progress and bet on yourself and nurture yourself.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  That's so beautiful. And you are just such a great example of that, that like it wasn't a overnight success. It took 10 years to get to where you are.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  Help us understand like what?

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  And I'm still learning every day. Like it's like I'm not like, it's not, uh, you know, I'm sure you feel like that too. That's why entrepreneurship is so addicting and fun because it just keeps you guessing and you're always trying to turn a trick.

• 1:11:23Speaker 00

  And it's so crazy because it's like I, I came across to you only recently.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  For me, I thought you were like, somebody knew who popped up.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Yeah, girl. I've been here.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  You've been here. And it's like, so it's just, it's, it just goes to show that it's like, everybody has their own journey.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  And it's like, you have like, an incredible book that came out. You've got so many social media followers. What like, and you have another business as well?

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have my podcast as well, which is great.

• 1:11:52Speaker 00

  Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Um, go to mrsdowjones.com. Uh, everything is there. The book, you'll find my podcast, my social media. I post daily financial clips on social media where I use pop culture to teach you about money. So if you like pop culture, I'm your girl. And you want to be rich. And yeah, my podcast is called Financial Tea and it's out every Thursday.

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Haley.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Have a good one.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  Well, guys, I really loved Haley's perspective on what financial freedom actually means. It's not just about having more money or looking successful. It's about having enough independence to own your time and make decisions without feeling trapped by your circumstances. And here were some of my favorite takeaways from our conversation today. First, build your freedom fund. Haley calls it F you money because having money set aside gives you the power to walk away. That could mean leaving a job that you hate, getting out of a situation that no longer serves you, or simply having the freedom to say no. The point is not just to save money for an emergency. It's to give yourself options. Second, stop making your entire wealth strategy about cutting back. Haley pushed back on the idea that getting

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  rich is mostly about skipping a latte, couponing, or constantly depriving yourself. Of course, you need to spend less than you earn, but there's only so much you can cut. You also need to think about how you can earn more, build ownership, and invest the difference so your money can grow. Action money, like she called it. And finally, before you change your finances, you have to change your relationship with money. Haley said she felt completely catfished when she finally started learning about finance because it wasn't nearly as complicated as she had assumed. Sometimes the biggest thing keeping us stuck isn't the math. It's the shame, fear, and stories that we've built around money. You don't need to know everything today. You just have to believe that this is something that you can

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  learn. So don't focus on looking rich, yap bam. Focus on becoming financially free. Build the kind of wealth that gives you the power to choose your life, your own time, and walk away from anything that no longer serves you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. If you loved today's episode and you want to dive deeper into Haley's framework, make sure you grab a copy of her new book, Future Rich Person. We've dropped the link right in the show notes for you. And because this was such a fun in-person conversation, head over to YouTube or Spotify video to watch the full conversation. And while you're there, leave a comment to tell me which money rule you're ready to keep, kill, or rewrite. You can also get to know me better on Instagram, TikTok,

• 1:14:24Speaker 00

  and X at Gap with Hala, or you can find me on LinkedIn by searching my name. It's Hala Taha. We'll catch you in the next one. This is your host, Hala Taha, AKA The Podcast Princess, signing off.