Sinéad Bovell: The Hidden Cost of AI Productivity and How to Protect Your Critical Thinking | Artificial Intelligence | E418

Artificial intelligence is driving unprecedented workplace efficiency, but AI futurist Sinéad Bovell warns that convenience may come at a cost. As professionals outsource more of their reading, research, writing, and decisions to AI, they risk weakening the judgment and critical thinking they need to lead. She believes AI should be a sparring partner, not a replacement for our own thinking. In this episode, Sinéad shares how entrepreneurs can use AI without becoming dependent on it and prepare for how it will reshape work, business, and decision-making. In this episode, Hala and Sinéad will discuss: (00:00) Introduction (00:00) The Hidden Risks of AI Reliance (03:49) Creating Friction and Using AI Wisely (13:36) Will AI Make Reading Obsolete? (18:51) Rethinking Education in the AI Era (22:53) AI’s Impact on the Future of Work and Careers (34:28) AI Predictions for Life and Society (47:00) Can You Trust AI for Information? (53:57) AI Risks, Environmental Impact, and Regulation (1:01:03) AI Opportunities for Business and Society (1:06:19) Betting on the Future of AI Sinéad Bovell is a futurist and strategic foresight advisor who helps leaders understand how emerging technologies are reshaping economies, business models, work, and society. She is the founder of WAYE, Weekly Advice for Young Entrepreneurs, an organization that educates youth and minority markets on advanced technologies. Sinéad is a 14-time United Nations speaker and has served as an advisor to the United Nations AI Advisory Body. She also hosts I've Got Questions with Sinéad Bovell, where she explores artificial intelligence and emerging technologies with leading experts. Sponsored By: Indeed - Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com/profiting Shopify - Start your $1/month trial at Shopify.com/profiting. Northwest Registered Agent - Get a complete business identity with Northwest. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/YAPFree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Mindstone - Master practical AI skills without the complexity with Mindstone’s AI Competency Programme. Head to experience.mindstone.com/yap and get 10% off. AT&T Business - Stay connected with reliable, secure internet built for entrepreneurs. Switch to AT&T Business at business.att.com. HoneyLove - Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Save 20% off Honeylove by going to honeylove.com/PROFITING! #honeylovepod Freshbooks - Manage all your business finances in one place. Right now, my listeners can get FreshBooks for less than $3 a month for your first four months — that's 90% off. Head to FreshBooks.com/podcast to get started. Walmart Marketplace - Reach millions of active online shoppers and get ready for holiday demand. Apply to sell today at marketplace.walmart.com/yap. AG1 - Get a daily health drink that helps maintain energy, support gut health, and support immune health, all in one simple scoop. And for a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at DRINKAG1.com/PROFITING. Resources Mentioned: Sinéad's Website: sineadbovell.com Sinéad's Instagram: instagram.com/sineadbovell Sinéad's LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sinead-bovell-89072a34 Sinéad's Podcast, I've Got Questions with Sinéad Bovell: bit.ly/IGQWSN-apple Active Deals - youngandprofiting.com/deals Key YAP Links Reviews - ratethispodcast.com/yap YouTube - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Newsletter - youngandprofiting.co/newsletter LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala Social + Podcast Services: yapmedia.com Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com/episodes-new Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship Podcast, Business, Business Podcast, Self Improvement, Self-Improvement, Personal Development, Starting a Business, Strategy, Investing, Sales, Selling, Psychology, Productivity, Entrepreneurs, AI, Artificial Intelligence, Technology, Marketing, Negotiation, Money, Finance, Side Hustle, Startup, Mental Health, Career, Leadership, Mindset, Health, Growth Mindset, ChatGPT, AI Marketing, Prompt, AI in Action, AI in Business, Generative AI, AI for Entrepreneurs, AI Podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hala Taha?

  Today's episode is sponsored in part by HeyGen, Shopify, Life at the Speed of Play, and Indeed. HeyGen helps you create AI avatar videos without constantly being behind the camera. Get your first three videos free at heygen.com/profitting. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you grow your business. Start your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com/profitting. Life at the Speed of Play by Mark Pincus helps entrepreneurs quickly test ideas and find the ones worth pursuing. Get two books for the price of one at GetMark'sBook.com/yap. Indeed helps you attract, interview, and hire all in one place. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com/podcast.

• 0:45Hala Taha?

  As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes or at YoungandProfiting.com/deals.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Last month, I was interviewing Jim Quick and like, nothing was working. None of my AIs would let me upload anything. And then suddenly I felt like I was completely handicapped and like, I can't do this interview.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  That's the scary part, right? When you catch yourself in a moment where you feel like, oh, I can't make a decision or do the task without this technology. But we don't think, what is the second order impact of that trade off? Sometimes when I'm reading something from AI, I'm in this like cognitive haze. I read something and it's not necessarily clicking. So I always say that AI has to be an input into your decision making. It can't be the decision.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  My guest is Sinead Bovell, a futurist and tech entrepreneur who studies how AI is changing the way we work, learn, and live. We're talking with our AI all the time and AI is giving us information about the world. What kind of a reality will that end up being?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  I call this the, the post-reality era, a world where I just ask my AI, you know, tell me about the latest geopolitical crisis in X, or tell me, is the economy going well? And AI generates that answer and that reality for me. Reality becomes something that is AI-generated and I decide if it's real or not.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  What is the most dystopian future that you could imagine?

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Oh goodness, the worst case scenario with AI.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Sinead, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  I am really looking forward to this conversation because you've got such an awesome perspective on AI and you talk about a lot of things that people aren't really talking about right now. So the conversation is how does AI make me smarter and make me faster? We're outsourcing our reading, our writing, and everybody's asking the question of how can AI enhance my productivity? How can AI make me smarter? But nobody is asking, is this actually going to hurt the way that I think? And so my first question to you is, what do you think we're not asking in terms of AI? In terms of how we think cognitively?

• 2:56Speaker 02

  We tend to think about things quite linearly. So, okay, so now I have this technology that can allow me to operate much faster. It can allow me to be much more productive. But we don't think, what is the second order impact of that trade off? So I'm obviously bullish on AI. I think it's a technology that's here to stay. But you have to think about the whole ecosystem. So if AI is making you a bit more productive, what are you replacing with that time? And if that is nothing that stimulated your brain in a similar way or allowed you to nourish the cognitive capacities that you expect to have? Attention, memory, judgment, making decisions on your own?

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Then you're making a pretty risky bet by giving everything that you used for your critical thinking to this technology. So it's about figuring out that, that optimal balance. And I don't think we do because we're in such a productivity centric society. And that's all we think about. And that's also how AI is marketed and pitched a lot. This is going to drive productivity, drive productivity. But we have to think about the entire system we operate in.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  So I'll give you an example with myself. So one of the main ways that I use AI is to help me prep for interviews. And so I have a Replit app where I like upload transcripts and, you know, viral reel clips and, and all this different like raw material and it gives me a brief. And then I also do the same thing on ChatGPT and like Claude and see what I get and kind of mix it all together. And I'm jumping from AI app to AI app. And I remember, I've been doing this for like a year. And I remember like last month I was interviewing Jim Quick and like, nothing was working. None of my AIs would like let me upload anything. And I started to panic and I was like, oh my gosh, how am I going to prep for this interview?

• 4:44Speaker 01

  And like, I had to push back the interview because I was like, I'm not going to have time to do this. I have to do this manually. And then I realized, I was like, whoa, I've been podcasting for eight years. And it was never an issue to study for. And then suddenly I felt like I was completely handicapped and like, I can't do this interview. And so I started changing the way that I actually research for a podcast because I realized that like, I can't just like outsource everything to AI.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  That's the scary part, right? When you catch yourself in a moment where you feel like, oh, I can't make a decision or do the task without this technology. And there's certain points where it's reasonable. I mean, I really can't navigate too well without Google Maps and I'm just, that's just a trade off that we've made. But when it's something that you should be familiar in, this is your game, this is your sport. And then you suddenly feel not confident. And then it's one thing to do that in the day to day, but imagine like really big decision makers and critical stakeholders. And they're in that position too, where like, wow, I have to make a big call that's going to impact a million people. And I can't do it without this technology. So we have to think a bit wider about it.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Talk to us about why it's so important to like create friction with the way that we learn and like our decision making and like our experiences? So like, we can make sure that like, we're not actually getting dumber by using AI.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  You have to foster the mental capacities that you expect yourself to have. So if you expect yourself to have strong judgment skills, strong critical thinking skills, to be able to follow a complex argument over time, those capacities don't just exist out of nowhere in a silo. They exist because we foster them, we cultivate them. So if you're not able to continue to practice that and you practice that, sometimes it's, you know, it can seem burdensome. Reading is not an activity that everybody loves to do, but you do know that it can help you follow an argument over time. It can nourish things like imagination.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  So by doing things that your brain is forced to engage in, then you're going to create, sometimes it's cognitive friction. But at the same time, you're, you're gaining or at least preserving some of the mental capacities that you expect yourself to have. And that's one thing that I ask people, what skills do you think you, you possess right now? And then how are you continuing to build them? Because your cognitive capacity, it's kind of like going to the gym where you don't just build these faculties by hoping to manifest them. You actually have to engage and do productive exercises. And there's many different ways that, I mean, for me, reading is a source of friction and so I force myself to do it. But there's puzzles, there's mental math, there's just different things that you can do.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  And it's tricky because everything about our modern world, or especially the, the most recent era of digital software, is designed to take that friction out, to do it on our behalf. So we don't really even have to think about what we want to eat. Because not only could you order it to your doorstep, the algorithm has already selected the things that it knows you're probably going to pick. And that's not an existential crisis that now you're out there seeing to eat pasta or burritos. But it's those types of tiny decisions all day, every day. And, and over time, it's what else are we losing as we outsource all of that?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  So in terms of like how my process changed with AI is from that point on, I was like, okay, like, I can't do this all in AI anymore. And it worked, but I also like, didn't feel as prepared for my interviews as I used to. And I realized like, this seems faster, but like, I'm actually not retaining anything. So I made some changes. Number one is I have like a separate doc and I actually have my final brief like outside of my AI. And so it's like, I'm actually like deciding what questions I want and like pulling ideas from AI, but into my final doc. Also, I'm, instead of just transcribing interviews and uploading them to AI, I do that. But I also listen to like the key ones and like write my own notes and my own questions.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  And I feel like way more prepared. The other thing that I do is like, once I get any sort of like reading material from AI, I listen to it. So that I can like really absorb it in multiple ways. Cause sometimes it just like spits out stuff and like, you actually don't really absorb it. For me, I learn more when I hear it.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  It's so interesting because I'm trying to name this phenomenon that I'm, I feel, I don't know if anybody else does. But sometimes when I'm reading something from AI, I'm in this like cognitive haze. It's the only way I can describe it.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  So much coming at you.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  So much come, and so I'm like, I retained some of that, but what did I just read? And it's kind of like when you, when you watch a video on social media and then you don't really know what, you just watched three videos before.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Sometimes when I engage with AI, I can, I feel that way. I read something and it's not necessarily clicking. So I always say that AI has to be an input into your decision making. It can't be the decision.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  And again, it's one thing if it's pasta or the burrito, but if it's something that's material in your life, treat it much more like an input and, and can you operate without it? I mean, I do so much writing in my notebook. If I go to a conference and it's something that I really need to pay attention to, I'm writing physical notes constantly. My notebooks are filled. And if I'm writing something that's important to me, it starts with a pen and paper. It takes a lot longer and then I'll transcribe to technology. So there's just many different ways that you can continue to create some friction in your life and it's so important.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  I heard you say that you use it as a sparring partner.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  To point out the gaps in my thinking. So I do a lot of writing and I do op-eds. And so sometimes I'll give AI a persona and say, you are this type of character. So maybe you have this type of background or this type of belief system. What assumptions am I making that this profile will catch? Or who might I not be including or seeing in this perspective? Or just point holes in my argument?

• 10:43Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  And how much that is, it's like having a private editor. And how much that has expanded my thinking has been awesome. And that's just one of the ways that I'll use this.

• 10:53Hala Taha?

  Yeah, but to your point, you're doing the initial thinking. Like, so, so when you think about first drafts, do you like to do the first draft of everything?

• 11:01Speaker 02

  I think really deeply about what am I bringing to artificial intelligence in the first place? Is it just a very half thought out idea? And I'm using AI strictly as a creative brainstorming partner? And why? And if I can't justify the decision as to why I think it may be the perfect match for what I need to kind of fill in that gap. And it's more because I don't want to think through this choice, then that's a problem.

• 11:23Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  And I try to complete the problem or the question that I'm bringing to AI before I just ask it. And I think another thing that people don't necessarily think about with AI is what does a good outcome look like? So people will just get AI's answer and then try to evaluate it. But before AI spits out an answer, do you have an idea of what would qualify as a good outcome to begin with? Or else you're more susceptible just to trusting something that sounds really smart, but may not be factually correct.

• 11:52Hala Taha?

  Yeah, I think you call this like the aura of authority.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  This kind of illusion of the oracle.

• 11:57Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  And this aura of authority, because it can sound really competent. And in many ways, it can get things right or expand your thinking. But it's not necessarily, it's not built as a fact finding machine. It may not be trained on data that's relevant for the specific thing that you're asking of it. So if you don't know about, you know, what is its distribution of data? Are you going to ask something from this AI system that it's not even the appropriate type of system to be asking?

• 12:25Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  And I do worry about this kind of aura of authority.

• 12:28Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Because something that can sound really intelligent, we're much more susceptible to falling for it.

• 12:34Hala Taha?

  And it feels so human, when in reality, it's not a human. It's not actually like making decisions or fact finding or anything like that.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it, and it doesn't have your best interest. And not because it has a malintent, it just has no interest. And I think that can be hard to see, right? Because up until this point, any system that is you, that uses language has been a human. And we're much more wired to try to decipher, is this person on my side? Are they an ally? Are they looking at me in a strange way? We miss all of those cues with artificial intelligence and all we get is language in a box.

• 13:14Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  And it's been designed to flatter you and to not offend you. So all of it seems like these are the cues of something that you can trust, but you can't. And again, it's not because it's a bad system or was programmed to be malicious. It just has no interest at all. So not to just take what it says and think, yes, this disagrees with me, it's probably right.

• 13:37Hala Taha?

  What's up, Yap Gang? I started my business as a side hustle. And once I started landing clients and bringing in real revenue, I realized I had to go all in. That's when I ran into all the not so exciting, but essential parts of running a real company, like forming an LLC and getting everything set up properly. Luckily, that's exactly what Northwest Registered Agent is built for. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US, helping entrepreneurs launch and grow legitimate, protected businesses. You get a complete business identity, including the essentials you need to run your business professionally and protect your privacy. Don't pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for free.

• 14:20Hala Taha?

  Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/ yapfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/ yapfree.

• 14:35Hala Taha?

  Hey, young improfitters. You know, hiring reminds me a little bit of dating. You can get a lot of potential candidates, but you still might not find your right match. And when I'm hiring at Yap Media, I don't have time to just hope the right person sees our job posts. And Indeed Sponsor Jobs helps me get in front of the right people. Sponsor Jobs boosts your job posts in the search results so you can reach the people who actually help your business thrive. Plus, you only pay for results. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all of your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsor Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit

• 15:18Hala Taha?

  to help give your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast, Young and Profiting. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsor Jobs. Yap fam, you know, October hits different. The season shifts and suddenly, when your alarm goes off in the morning, your body's like, absolutely not. But when you have the business and a million decisions waiting for you, you cannot start the day already feeling behind. And that's why AG1 has earned a real spot in my morning routine.

• 16:02Hala Taha?

  AG1 Next Gen is a daily foundational nutrition drink with 75 plus ingredients, including vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and superfoods. AG1 Next Gen is backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials and key nutrient levels improved within three months of consistent use. Plus, it's formulated to support immune defense, which is really important this time of year. Yap fam, if you want to start your mornings off right, go to drinkag1.com/profiting and for a limited time, get a free immune support bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/profiting.

• 16:46Hala Taha?

  Drinkag1.com/profiting. So how should we use it? Because you say AI is not your friend.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  No, it's definitely not your friend. It's a really incredible technology, but I mean, define what a friend is. And to me, I think friendship requires reciprocity.

• 17:04Hala Taha?

  Yep.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  It requires empathy, understanding, sometimes there's conflict. And those things are just not present in the systems that we have today. So I think if you treat it like a friend, I mean, you're much more susceptible to trust it in ways that you probably shouldn't. And we've already seen, I mean, there's been many different cases of examples of people that trust these systems because they believe them.

• 17:31Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  And they think that they have their best interest. And then they, they act in really damaging ways. I mean, people losing their job because they believe that AI is alive and leaving marriages and all sorts of things. I mean.

• 17:43Hala Taha?

  We're about to get into like a crazy world because to your point, I think the lines are really blurring. And people feel like AI is human. Even when I talk to my AI, I talk to it like it's like a human. Like, can you read through this or like?

• 17:58Speaker 02

  And there's all these little, I mean, strange little design kind of tricks. Why does AI say "I"? What does it mean when it says "I"? I who? What? The data center? Who is "I" in that conversation? But those are all sorts of versus if AI said, replied as "it" or the machine. Because it says "I", that is again, another biological cue that you are talking to something that has a mind similar to yours.

• 18:25Hala Taha?

  Yeah, and in the past, only humans could talk and write.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:29Hala Taha?

  And think.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we have to decouple aspects of cognitive capabilities from consciousness and understanding, because now they are fundamentally different things.

• 18:41Hala Taha?

  I was like, you know, perusing your podcast. And I came across this episode where you were saying you think that we're about to approach a post-literate world. And you think that we might lose the ability to read.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, the post-literate society. And it's not even just me pontificating about this. There are many different psychologists, academics, that see that it is possible that reading is just a chapter in human history. And the data, I mean, the trend lines already point to us reading less and less. And it's not, technology is a big part of it.

• 19:19Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  It's not the only part. Since the 70s, schools have moved away from long form reading and towards short excerpts and passageways. And that's easier to mark, it's easier to standardize. So we've been slowly unwinding the muscle of reading as a pastime or reading as something that's a part of academia. And so when you look at the data, it's quite stunning of, you know, how less, how little we read compared to decades ago. And then when you throw in technology on top of that, we're kind of being surrounded by systems that can do what would have required the reading for us. And then the final trend on that, and you know, as a futurist, my whole job is to look at the frontier.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Is right now, we're still in the smartphone based economy, the computer based, the hardware around us does require some reading. But we aren't going to stay here. We're moving to much more of a voiced, voice-first digital era. And that's what's in the pipeline. So, and I mean, when you think about what's the easiest way to converse with someone? Conversation, where you're just chatting. And AI is a conversation based technology. So the devices that are coming are going to be not really screen based. They'll just be a voice assistant. And the same even with using AI on your smartphone, it's much easier just to kind of pick it up and chat to it.

• 20:39Hala Taha?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  So all of these kind of micro ways that we start to remove reading from our world. And I'm personally conflicted about this because I, I read a lot, multiple books at once. And again, I don't necessarily, I love it, but then I also don't because it's hard.

• 20:57Hala Taha?

  Cognitive friction, right?

• 20:59Speaker 02

  So I force myself to do it. And when young parents ask, you know, what should my kids study? What should they do? They're 10 years old, just have them read. That's a, that's a great set of skills that they're going to build just from that. I don't know, is reading going to become like Latin? Where reading and writing were so foundational to society? And then yet somehow we're no longer connected to it? And is it because it could go one of two ways? We have figured out the next step that we can take. Uh, the same way when writing was invented and Plato and Socrates thought this is going to be the end of our memory. We're going to outsource everything to the book. No one's, everyone's going to appear wise and know nothing. And it turned out to be okay.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Is AI in this next kind of voice first chapter? Going to lead us to something that's actually surprisingly better? Maybe if we can figure it out and we can make school and learning more rigorous? Or are we going to lose a lot? Um, and I'm not sure. So I think the safest bet is to continue to, to read or to continue. And reading is not for everyone. Some people can get friction in different ways.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  It works for me, but so that's why I always advise, you know? I think it's a point that we hold on to this, that maybe I turn out to be wrong in a decade.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  It's so crazy to think about the fact that like books were controversial at one point.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Really controversial.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  The printing press was controversial.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they were somewhat controversial for different reasons. I think, um, the printing press was because it was a monopoly on knowledge and monopoly on intelligence and who could know what. And then when you democratize that, suddenly now people have access to different, um, methods of knowing. People can know things that previously only certain powers could hold. Um, and so that just created.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  That's kind of a good, that was a good thing for the masses.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. There was a bit of chaos in the, in the onset of it, a few, you know, years of war, but eventually we figured it out. And then writing was very controversial for a different reason, reading and writing. Because books, and it's similar arguments we hear with AI. You're, are you going to learn anything? Are you just going to parrot what somebody else has written? And what's that going to do to, to memory? Cause prior to having access to a book, you had to write out everything that you learned. And what you wrote was what you knew. Uh, and now you could just read somebody else's. So these arguments are very similar and we figured it out and we, books actually made and the printing press, learning much more rigorous because now knowledge could compound and it became more complex. So you can't just kind of make up some chemistry formula because somebody else had printed

• 23:31Speaker 02

  something a year ago that already showed that that was false. So now your idea has to build on top. So we figured it out as a society and we got through it and academic, academia got more rigorous. Can we do it now? Um, do we have the patience? Do we have the right mindset of what we need and who's making these decisions? I'm not sure.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  But we're definitely at a pivotal moment.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  I know like a hot topic that you talk about is how AI should be used in schools and how AI should be like monitored with students. Um, and I think you have a really cool perspective on this. I'd love for you to share it.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think AI in education, and it depends on the age. So I don't think that there's any need for a young child to be engaging with a chatbot as a, I don't think that that's just helpful. So we don't really need to be doing that. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be educating kids on chatbots so they can use them safely. Or if they engage, if they encounter one, they know what it isn't and what it is. So it's like, you can talk about these sorts of things with them without actually having kids on chatbots. That's one thing. But when it comes to academic rigor and academic integrity, um, and people are saying, you know, we should probably ban artificial intelligence or steal.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Lots of kids like getting like expelled for using AI and so.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and my stance on that is we can't pretend that this technology doesn't exist at home. It does. So maybe what you can control in the classroom is if you think it's better to have oral exams and do that or written exams, let's go back to that. That's probably harder, the Socratic method. But you can't assign an assignment home that looks the exact same as it did pre-AI and expect somebody just to not use artificial intelligence. You'll have a few outlier students that maybe will do that. But we are biologically wired to take the path of least resistance, to minimize and conserve energy. So people are of course are going to use that technology. Uh, so instead of hoping everything stays the same and we just ignore this AI thing,

• 25:30Speaker 02

  I think this is a moment to raise the bar on what we're even asking from students. So in a world where supercomputers, what, how does school become harder? What different skills do we need to be able to cultivate?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Raise the bar a bit.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that means maybe where curricula gets more challenging at younger ages because we have these technologies. And maybe sometimes it doesn't even mean we're engaging with AI at all. Uh, maybe it's interdisciplinary thinking. Imagine walking into your English class and you have to debate the climate policies that you learned in civics, based on the chemistry you learned in science, all oral, no AI involved. But somebody who's able to do that well can also use AI probably well because they have strong communication and judgment skills. But school does need to look different.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  The school system we have today was largely designed in an industrial era that has come and gone.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Careers are different. The world we're preparing for is different. So you can't have everything about a society change and one system stay the same.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Uh, and that goes for many of our institutions, like everything, nobody's immune. And we can all understand, oh, the accountant's job's going to change and oh, probably this person's job. Um, but why not our institutions? They, everybody, no one's immune to these transformations.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  It's been too late. It's been too late. And we've been here before with calculators.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Yes. So, and calculators, it's an interesting example because of course it's not the complexity of an AI system. But what did we do when we got this technology? We all got stuck with harder mathematics at younger ages because now we had this device. So we all got calculus dragged into high school because now you have this, this launch, this kind of springboard called the calculator. To, if we're to use that as an analogy, and it's not a perfect one, but what would it mean for if AI is now, if what AI can do is the baseline, that is the bare minimum? How do you teach people to think beyond a machine, to think past it? What does it mean to outsmart or to think differently alongside this technology?

• 27:30Speaker 02

  So I think it's a rewrite for everyone, many industries, education as well. If we get this right, it will be amazing.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Uh, it's a big if, but if we, if we do figure this out, uh, then it could look great.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  We could advance, just like all the other technology before AI helped advanced humans. You talk about this, uh, I think era of independence, how traditional careers and job titles are going to essentially go away and we're going to all act more like entrepreneurs.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. The independence era. And this has been in the works for some time where the tasks within a role have started to change much more rapidly, that the initial title that that role was supposed to contain no longer makes sense for the task that happened within it. Uh, and AI is just going to accelerate this where what this technology can do today will be different in six months. Uh, and it's not just what the person in that role has to do will change. A company's business model is also going to continue to, to evolve. So this idea of the sticky job container, that is just going to be a chapter of history where you had one job at one time and you moved linearly up a career ladder.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  And the career ladder only made sense because we could stack the container that we called jobs. And, and if you were to be in a position for two years, you probably know more than somebody who's been there for six months. Therefore you could probably be more senior than them. In a world where you have AI changing the types of problems people solve, seniority doesn't necessarily guarantee you're the best person to solve a certain problem at a certain time. Um, roles are going to start to be much more fluid. So the whole structure of work starts to change. Why I do think we're probably seeing more independent based work, and we already are because of the internet. So the internet did decouple, uh, many professions from this kind of linear career path. But what AI does today will be different in seven months, in 20 months.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  And so what a business needs is going to continue to change. Uh, so what you need from different people will change. I may need a marketer with these skills today, but a totally different set of skills in a year. It's going to be challenging to hire for that full time when I might need an entirely different thing 12 months from now.

• 29:53Hala Taha?

  Hello, young and profiteers. If you're running a business, getting website traffic is only half the battle. The real key to profiting is turning those visitors into paying customers. And I know checkout friction can quietly kill your sales. That's why I always say, serious entrepreneurs build on Shopify. Shopify is a commerce platform that helps you launch and run an online store without needing to be super technical. You can build your storefront, manage your business and make it easy for people to buy. And here's the major advantage. Shopify checkout with shop pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition. With Black Friday coming up, now's the time to get your store ready and simplify your checkout experience.

• 30:35Hala Taha?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/profitting to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/profitting. Go to Shopify.com/profitting today to hear your first.

• 30:52Hala Taha?

  What's up, Yap fam? You guys know we love reading on this show, so I'm always excited when I find a book I genuinely think is worth sharing. "Life at the Speed of Play: Launch Products People Love" by Mark Pincus is one of those books. Mark is a legendary Silicon Valley entrepreneur and investor, and this fast-paced 170-page book is his playbook for testing ideas quickly, navigating uncertainty, and figuring out what's actually worth pursuing. One of my favorite concepts is what he calls "the abyss", those moments when you feel stuck or unsure of what's next. Instead of fearing uncertainty, he shows you how to use it as a tool for discovery. Right now, Mark is doing a buy-one-get-one offer for Yap listeners.

• 31:37Hala Taha?

  Go to GetMark'sBook.com/Yap, buy one copy for $32 and get a second copy free, so you can keep one for yourself and give the second to a friend, future co-founder, or someone who needs a little push.

• 31:53Hala Taha?

  What's up, Yap gang? I recently had Gary Vee on the podcast, and he told me something that really stuck with me. If you've got sales DNA, you've got to be paying attention to live selling, because it's one of the biggest opportunities right now online. And that really got me curious, so I checked out an app that he told me about called Whatnot. I jumped into a live show, and I instantly got it. The seller was showing products in real time, answering questions in the chat, and building a real relationship with the buyers. It didn't feel like boring shopping. It felt like a community. Whatnot is the largest live shopping marketplace in the country. And for entrepreneurs, the results are really hard to ignore. Sellers on Whatnot can sell up to 10 times more than traditional marketplaces, and the number of sellers making over $1 million a year on the platform has doubled. So if you've got products to sell

• 32:38Hala Taha?

  and you're looking for a new way to reach customers, search "Whatnot," W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store. Download it, and you can start selling right away. That's Whatnot in the App Store.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Let's make this practical. So like, as you're describing it, what I imagine is it's like, kind of like a freelancer that works on Upwork that has like digital skills. Maybe they're good at video editing, copywriting, graphic design. And they're like, they put up the fact that they're good at these skills, and then people can hire them based on different skills that they have. Is that kind of what you're imagining?

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'd say a way to think about it is, if you, whatever you do in your work right now, forget the job title, what are the skills that you perform under it? Now, if you were to think about those skills as a company, that is what you offer. So these are the skills that you are endowed with. These are the skills that you've cultivated. If you were to offer those to a few different companies at once, so maybe you're really good at understanding where markets are going in terms of reaching consumers on social media and whatever comes next, you will probably work for a few different types of companies offering those skills. And so, yeah, you can think about it kind of like the Upworks of the world, but with much more knowledge work inside of that. So a lot of us will be offering our skills

• 33:52Speaker 02

  to a few different places at any one time in much more of an independent kind of entrepreneurship box.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  We've been hearing about this like jobpocalypse for like a really long time, right? Like, since AI came on the scene, like, let's say, three years ago, everybody's saying jobs are gonna go away. Like, not much has changed. So how has your thoughts evolved in terms of like job disruption? Where do you see it in three years versus like 10 years from now?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  It's probably not going to be as stark as suddenly we wake up and nobody has a job. That doesn't really make sense to me.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  And neither does the idea that an economy goes away. Economies don't disappear, they reconfigure. So I think, I mean, the jobs that you and I do today are completely unpredictable to somebody 80 years ago.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Would have made zero sense trying to explain any of it. So I think we're going to transition again into something very new and very different. And so maybe in 15 years from now, again, the jobs are just as unrecognizable as they were 100 years ago. The transition does concern me. How do we get from where we are today to what work looks like in 10 to 15 years from now? We'll probably work less, and that's been the trend for the last 150 years. We've worked less and less. Now we have five days, it'll probably go to four for three. I don't think there's going to be no work. I think it's just going to look different.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  And then I think how we go from today to that chapter. It doesn't have to be bumpy like the Industrial Revolution, but if we aren't making the right decisions about this transition, it will be.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Talk to us about how job disruption isn't necessarily linear. Like, let's take like lawyers and doctors, for example. Like, how do you think that a doctor's job and a lawyer's job will get disrupted? What kind of jobs do you think will go? What kind of opportunities do you think will be created?

• 35:46Speaker 02

  I mean, it depends, because this pulls on a lot of economics. So it depends on what part of the lawyer's job, for example, gets automated. So if AI is really good at doing most of the, not just admin, but something that doesn't require fierce judgment, a lawyer powered by artificial intelligence can just do a lot more. So we'll need far fewer of them. Maybe what they charge is cheaper, but they can do a lot more things. If society reconfigures enough to where the system, I mean, law is kind of built into the infrastructure of what we do, embedded in AI, then that kind of changes the needs of the profession.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  The data is really interesting on something like a physician, because let's say AI gets really good at medical diagnostics. What happens to the role of the doctor? So it probably, it could branch into two different things. So the doctor becomes something else. So diagnostics goes to maybe AI and the nurse. So that role becomes interesting. And then the doctor can do something much more complex. So if AI is getting our basic things, predicting our basic illnesses beforehand, the only thing that would reach a doctor is something very complex and very strange, because AI has started to get good at the small signals. And maybe it connects to your wearable, so you don't get those types of diseases that we maybe have today. But I don't think the doctor goes away entirely. I think it just transforms into something very different and strange.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  And maybe the doctor is part computer scientist, part synthetic biologist, working with quantum computers to model your cells, and then helping you with urgent healthcare needs.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  And like, maybe people get more like private doctors, and private doctors become more accessible.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  I think it will probably look more similar to concierge medicine, where people used to have a doctor that came to you.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  I think now, as you start to wear more of your technologies and things are catching things earlier, I think just the whole system is going to look different. And I think that's something that we're bad at as a species. We see the future as a linear extension of the present. So we hold everything the same, and then we ask, okay, well, how will AI make this faster or different? But sometimes the whole system changes. So medicine might be an industry where everything just comes to you. And that is what the future of medicine looks like. It's just part device-based and part physician that comes to your house and just does things.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  It's so interesting. A really great example that I heard on your podcast with lawyers, actually, is that AI might make it really easy for people to make contracts. And so there might be a lot more contracts and a lot more volume of contracts, but we still need that like last check of somebody to like validate, make sure this contract is good. And so there might be like a new role where there needs to be more lawyers who are doing that, like that last step of fact-checking a contract before it goes out. And so jobs can also just like change, or the needs change.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Totally. The tasks within a job, and the legal services is a great one, because maybe there's also a new type of job where it's someone who can review a contract that isn't a lawyer in how we think about it today, but powered by AI, they can learn a certain set of skills, and that's something different and new. And then the lawyer goes on to do maybe just the highest, most complex-style cases that are just unforeseen, and it's really hard to prepare for them. And that's what we ask for from lawyers. So jobs can change, and I think that's, nothing is fixed about a role, right? Businesses hire people to solve certain problems at a certain point in time. Problems change, technology changes, so the roles that fall in them also change.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  And industries can be created, entire industries. Like, why was marketing created?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this is one of my favorite examples. And this is when people say,

• 39:27Speaker 02

  AI is going to be able to do absolutely everything and there's no jobs left for anyone. It's always really interesting because the industries that we exist in today were so unforeseeable. And it was only because the invention of certain technologies that then that industry made sense. So, marketing is an example of that. With the second industrial revolution, we now have assembly lines. We're manufacturing all of these goods much cheaply. So now, well, how am I going to sell all of this? I have to generate demand. Before you only just needed a sales rep to try to push the few products that you had. Well, now you have 10,000 canned goods and before you had five. Where are those demand signals coming from? I'm going to need to create something called a brand to actually have an identity.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  The first brand managers were in the 1930s. And I think it was P and G that created that role. And the first marketing classes didn't exist until the early 1900s. And marketing isn't just sales, right? It's a cross between you have to work with the finance department. You have to work with advertising. It only happened post-industrial, second industrial revolution. So, and that's an entire industry. So I think we're going to see more of those really strange things that it is impossible to predict because of where we are today.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  It's like super fascinating to think about even just how marketing is going to evolve in the future. So, in the future, there might not even be an internet anymore. Because AI is going to be doing a lot of tasks that we humans traditionally have done on the internet. Where maybe the internet as we know it now isn't going to be the same. Maybe there won't be websites anymore. And AIs use APIs to get the information that they need. And then suddenly, who are we marketing to? The AI agents? And it's like, how do we actually create brands or create desires?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, it will just have to evolve. How do you reach people when the, you don't reach them directly? You probably reach their team of AI systems. And so it will probably require a different type of skill and a different type of domain. And we probably won't even call it marketing. It will probably be something entirely different. In the same way, we had to figure it out with websites and the world of social media. And then we realized, oh, we can reach people a different way through influencers. And so all of these different things that we kind of originated based on the technologies of the time. But yeah, the internet is going to look very different if we're even going to be on it in a decade.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  I think this is a good place to transition to a game. Actually, this is a game that I played with Gary Vee yesterday. I interviewed Gary Vee and he's big on AI too. And he's great at predictions. So I was like, let's do some AI predictions. So I'm going to throw out one word and you tell me, what is your prediction for this in the next five, 10 years? How do you think this is going to evolve? Okay? The first one is preferences. Like, will AI know what we want better than we know ourselves?

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, it's possible. I mean, algorithms already have a scary amount of data on us. So hopefully, we can figure out the data crisis in a way that's privacy centered. But I think preferences, our preferences may actually get more complex. Because AI can handle a lot more of that complexity. So an example is, let's say I want really good skincare.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  And I just know that I want it to be clean and I want it to be a certain price. I only have a certain amount of time that I can look for that. And I only have a certain amount of understanding of ingredients. But AI has unlimited time.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  And unlimited access to ingredients. So our preferences may actually be able to become much more nuanced. And for that price and for that ingredient, clean, whatever it is that matters to you, you'll have an AI that works 24/7 all day to find that and source it from a particular place. So I think our preferences will evolve in really interesting ways.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  That's so interesting. I didn't even think about it from that point. I could even imagine where like you've got all this health data and like you've got all this data about your skin and what your skin needs. And AI is like constantly like reflecting that, ordering you new stuff.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it will be, like, our preferences will be informed by different types of data. Our internal microbiome, maybe how we slept and we'll have systems. And again, hopefully, we can do this in a way that makes sense with privacy. But your preferences are now much more informed and hopefully accurate or aligned with the goals that you have or the person you're trying to be.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Materialism, how do you think that's going to evolve?

• 43:50Speaker 02

  It depends. So this could go in one of two ways. There's a world in which AI makes access to personalized products, fashion, design, whatever it is, furniture. So what you think you need or want is less influenced by mass consumerism. Because it's much cheaper to produce and manufacture and design. So then, in a world where we're less influenced by just the masses or a few people we seek influence from, maybe we might not be as material because there's no core person who's, everyone's trying to emulate. Or everyone seeks to for certain.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  And also like, no, not a lot of, if we're not on the internet, like, there's, there's not a lot of ads. There's not a lot of like screen, like scrolling and like keeping up with the Joneses to your point.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  So that could, yes, and I don't think we'll be on social media the way we are or on it at all for that matter. So I think that there's a world in which it can go, I don't need to compare myself. Like, I truly can manufacture this for 10 bucks on my own. I don't know what you're wearing. I'm going to wear what I like. There's that world. But then there's also a world in which it depends on what happens with advertising laws and data laws. That if an AI knows this better than we know ourselves and it's not controlled properly, you're constantly bombarded with advertisements and it knows your insecurities. So it knows the things that you're going to be susceptible to. Then maybe we end up shopping and buying more because we constantly feel like, oh, I could be better. And there's more for me to do and to how to evolve. So it can go one of two ways. And probably a myriad in between.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  So interesting. Okay, the next one is love and relationships.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Goodness. Oh, I mean, I don't think we're in the best spot with, I think dating apps had the right intention. And it was, when they first came out, I think when you look at the, the early data of how they transformed love and people met that would have never met and all of these interesting things. And then we really went full speed in the gamified economy. And the way you shop for a dress, food, makeup, TikTok and a partner. And it all looks the same and the exact same ecosystem. So I feel like if we can reroute a different way, then maybe love and relationships.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  I mean, people are starting to do more things offline, running clubs and craving more human connection. I hope we can step out of this kind of digital vortex that we're in and do more things in person and therefore remain connected to one another. I am really concerned about the companionship with these AI systems. And AI systems filling these kind of superficial needs.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  That AI is, is not your friend.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Well, and can it be even more than that? Like, people may see it as, I mean, it's flattering me, I can talk to it all night. And if you think about, you know, the dream, they understand me, they can laugh at my jokes. We have similar humor. They may be intellectually inspired by them. They don't bother me too much. You can superficially think that that's what an AI can give you.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  So I am worried that some people are going to just end up in some kind of AI companion ecosystem.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's already happening. I think someday like in Asia got married to an AI.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  People are leaving marriages for their AI. But maybe it's also where we could boomerang into a different direction where people are going back to restaurants and run clubs and doing things and meeting people with common interests in different ways. So I'm curious to see how that nets out. And when you bring the data down to, for example, Gen Alpha, that are engaging with social media in very different ways than Gen Z or Zed, because I'm Canadian, and millennials, where there are, some of them are on social media, even though they're very young, but they're not necessarily contributing to it. We're seeing one in 50 phones that are sold is a dumb phone to some form of a flip phone. So some of those chords to this hyper digital world, your life, your boyfriend, your job, everything is in this device are getting cut.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  So we might again kind of boomerang into a different way, which could be great.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'd be awesome if AI and technology actually made us more human.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  And I think the linear, again, I really hope, and I think dating apps are already starting to do this, but I hope they don't. Where they see, okay, how can AI help the dating environment? Oh, AI should just go on dates for you. And then it can do some kind of concierge thing. And then by the time you go to the date, it's already been vetted. But to me, that's a linear way of thinking about the future.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  It's just an extreme automated extension of what we already do that already doesn't work. So you're just kind of piling another technology on top of something that wasn't working to begin with. I hope people figure out much more innovative ways that maybe AI can help in a way that doesn't make us, yeah, at the gambling store looking for partners.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, I remember when I, when I was single and I was using dating apps for the first time. It's like a struggle. It's a struggle. It's, it's really like crush your soul. Let's talk about taste. How do you think taste is going to evolve?

• 49:00Speaker 02

  In a world with AI, what does taste look like?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Taste is going to be more important.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  I hope people can become more creative because they can see so many different types of designs. I think taste as a competitive advantage becomes really interesting. Somebody who has really great taste, because when you can, and just from an economics perspective, if things are very cheap to manufacture, cheap to design and cheap to make, whether that's content, whether that's clothes, whatever it is, if everyone can do that, what becomes scarce? And if it is your, your eye and the way you push things, put things together in an abundant kind of a good society, then I do think taste becomes interesting. And people who have taste could have some form of a competitive advantage in the future.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially because I feel like AI is kind of just like spitting out what it gets fed in. And if you're somebody who's creative, that's kind of bringing a new perspective.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  I think that could be really valuable.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  And AI, I mean, it's just kind of the average of all of us, right? So it's been trained on all of our stuff. And it's just kind of the average, middle of the road to somebody who has a really different way to look at something.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Out of the box thinking, yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  I think could be really interesting.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Purpose, how do you think purpose is going to evolve?

• 50:13Speaker 02

  I think purpose is going to have to evolve. I think we've spent the last 130 years wiring ourselves into a society where you are what you do.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  And we engrain that in childhood. As young as you can start to put sentences together, people ask you, what do you want to be when you grow up? And it's asked with the best intention. And it can be a really fun question to ask and to be asked. But then we also tell people, you are what you do. And your dreams should be tethered to the job you want to do, not the person you want to be. And that worked for a certain type of economy and workforce, where unfortunately or fortunately, work became your life and a part of your identity. I think AI is going to force us to decouple it. And again, not because no one's eventually going to work. I'm not in that department. But because we're going to transition out of this chapter. And work will look very different.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  And I don't know if it would be as coupled with identity. And maybe we're closer to work in ways that we enjoy more. And then that's a good thing. But I think, yeah, we've kind of backed ourselves into this world where you are your job. And we all know we hate going to a party. And the first thing somebody asks is, so what do you do? It never has sat right with any of us.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  So I think AI is going to decouple some of those strings.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  I'm thinking the next 20, 30 years, there's still going to be a lot of problems for us to solve. Don't you think?

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think we're, we're great at generating problems and then giving ourselves problems to solve. Especially generationally. So I think, yeah, and that's one thing that I, I do say when it comes to kids. I mean, they're very creative and imaginative. What problems would they want to solve in the world? What would they want to bring to life and make possible? Versus what is some job that you hope to do? Because that job probably won't exist if we're going to be real.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  And the concept of a job might not even make sense.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Okay, last one is trust. How do you think trust will change?

• 52:12Speaker 02

  It could go again, one of two ways. So one, we recognize that a society that has no trust, that can't believe anything, is just going to be entirely dysfunctional. And we're kind of close to that in the social media. Things aren't going so well from a trust capacity, from a trust standpoint. But there is a lot of resources, or there are a lot of resources being poured into something like provenance, where you can see how information moves throughout a digital system. So we might end up in a world where people have built the solutions to solve these trust problems. And then it looks great. Or we end up in a world where if we don't figure that out, and is what I'm looking at real or is it not? Is the thing that I'm talking to real or is it not?

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Then we're in this complete trust deficit. So again, it kind of depends. And I know I give us a lot of different types of scenarios, but that's what the future is. It's not one way or the other. It's decisions that we make that take us to different futures. So it's, you know, what choices are we making today? And I hope we build a world where we can trust things more. But right now, it's kind of a free for all.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  As we start communicating with AI more, and AI really becomes more of our thought partner, and maybe the internet becomes less of a thing. And like you mentioned, there might not be like physical devices that we're scrolling. And so we don't have social media echo chambers anymore. But we're, we're talking with our AI all the time. And AI is giving us information about the world. And maybe even filtering that information based on our preferences, our moods, whatever it is. What kind of a reality will that end up being? Like, what, like, paint that picture for us.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I call this the, the post-reality era. Right now, I think we're in a post-truth era, where you, depending on which social media ecosystem you inhabit, you're going to see a slightly different set of facts and, you know, different scenarios in the world and so forth. But at least theoretically, I could see if you fell into an echo chamber or something, I could probably find the Facebook group or the Twitter, whatever it is. In a world where if the future looks like a world where I just ask my AI, you know, tell me about the latest geopolitical crisis in X. Or tell me, is the economy, is the economy going well? And AI generates that answer and that reality for me.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Well, reality becomes something that is AI-generated, and I decide if it's real or not. And that, and your reality would be very different from my reality, depending on what you ask and depending what the AI knows about you and depending on your data and so forth. And there's genuinely no overlap. Because in a world where even if you and I believed very different things about the world, you could theoretically see where somebody, where a post originated and who's saying what, when. It's hard, but we can do it.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  In an AI-first environment, if we don't have the right type of transparency or the right kind of ground rules, we could end up in an entirely AI-generated reality. And I actually think this is really important that, I mean, I talked to national security officials about it. Because the signals that I see that show we're already moving towards a post-reality era. Some people have different perspectives on AI-generated music. So for some people, it's, this is atrocious. This is diabolical. Where are we heading? And for others, it's, you know what? This song made me feel something, though. I felt it saw me as a mom. It saw me as a divorcee, whatever it is. And so that, that reality, even if it's AI-generated, it worked for me.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  So when you scale that up and we say, we turn to AI and we say, here are my medical records. What does this mean for me? Imagine that times, what does this economy mean for me? What does this vice president mean for me if they're to run? All of these things become this kind of AI ecosystem. And so it's something I'm, I really talk a lot about in national security rooms, because we could just be in complete la la land.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Private companies own this AI. So they can theoretically be feeding it the answers that they want people to hear.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we're already seeing different countries kind of data poison the environment. So AI learns from the data that it's trained on. A lot comes from the internet. We're already seeing different countries start to produce a bunch of content and blog posts that align with their views, knowing that AI is going to learn from it. And then we'll parrot it. So that's already happening. And yeah, so some of it, some of these are private companies. You can't really even inspect where is AI pulling information from? How is it making decisions and trade-offs? And these are questions that we're going to have to get to the bottom of. We missed it with social media. And now we're all trying to figure out, where did democracy go wrong?

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  We don't have to with AI, but we have to be forward-looking. And that's why it's important to, to kind of engage with these scenarios. And it doesn't mean we have to experience them. But if you only want to see that it's going to go well, it doesn't actually help society in any way not engaging with, well, what's the worst-case scenario that we don't want? And are we doing anything today? Are we making any decisions that are steering towards that?

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do, what do we as individuals do now? So that we make sure that like, we're getting like a really like full worldview and that we're not like leaning on AI too heavily for information? Like, what should we be doing?

• 57:42Speaker 02

  It depends on the questions that you're asking about AI and how consequential they are to you. So I mean, journalists, I know that there's a lack of trust in information for myriad reasons. But there still is some form of rigor that a journalist has to uphold when they report on a story. So if something, if you're trying to learn about something that's really important to you, and you're asking AI for it, maybe it's sufficient, but can you at least double-check it with maybe an institution of journalism in some way, shape or form? Can you triple-check different sources? So if AI tells you one answer, can you also pull up, where did it pull that answer from?

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  And just at least go that, that next step? And do you have a diversified information environment to begin with? That's why I watch various news stations, not because I agree with all of them. I try to understand, how are different people seeing this, this mess?

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  So I can understand why we may be in it to begin with. And so I think that there's just various different things. And then always just think critically about information. What incentive does this platform or does this AI system or the, you know, the company behind this have? What is motivating them? Is it profit? Is it information integrity? Those incentive systems really do matter.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's scary, because I think people think that AI like truly has all the right answers. And they're trying to use AI as like a, like

• 59:08Speaker 02

  A fact-checking machine, yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, fact-checking. And they're like, well, no, this is the answer. AI said it's the answer.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  But if AI is scanning YouTube Shorts to get its answer, anybody can upload a YouTube Short.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Totally. And so people should just know that this is not a fact-finding machine.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  At all. And that's just not what it's been designed to do. It can solve really cool problems. It can be creative with you. But it's not there to solve and find facts for you. And we're, we're just going to have to have some form of skepticism with what it shares with us. And until we can figure out some of that data provenance and we can figure out a way to have much more reliability in AI, and I think that's possible. And there are a lot of smart computer scientists working on it. But for now, sometimes the answer will be as good as some random blog on Reddit. And if you're about to change your entire life over, over that random, like, would you change your life, your marriage, or everything over a Reddit thread? Probably not. So have that air of skepticism with AI.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's talk about some of the challenges that we think AI is going to bring. You say that you're neither like an optimist or a pessimist, right? But let's, let's go to the pessimistic side of things. One of the things that I've really gotten a lot of pushback. So I've been talking about AI since like things started to get more popular and trying to teach about it.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  And generally, like, I'm bullish on it. I think entrepreneurs should use AI. I try to teach people how to use AI effectively. And in the last six months, I've gotten a ton of pushback on my social media posts. People are fearful of their jobs. And then people are also really angry about the environmental impact of AI. So what are your thoughts around energy consumption, water consumption? Do you see it like being a long-term problem? Or do you feel like this is something that's going to get solved?

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  I mean, I think we need to be much harder on AI companies and the traces they're making to power these data centers. It does not have to be powered by methane gas or any of the types of coal, whatever energy that people are finding to to power artificial intelligence systems. And I get that there's kind of an energy shortage, but that is a choice people are making. You could also power it with solar, hydropower, there's many clean energy options. Sure, it's going to take a little bit longer, but I think if you have the billions of dollars in funding to build the data center in the first place, you probably have the funds to fund it in a, or to to build it in a much cleaner way.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  So I do think that we need to be harder on the AI companies and the choices that they're making to build these AI systems. And and and it is a choice, right? Because, I mean, America often points to the the race with China, and China's building a lot of solar and a lot of nuclear plants. Of course, they they pollute in many different ways, but they're still building out green energy solutions. So I think we should, people are right to press the the gas pedal on, no, no, no, we need to do this differently.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  And I'm, of course, I do think AI is going to be a part of our future. I mean, this technology, it's it's here, it's been here for years. So that's happening, but how it gets built is not inevitable, and it's not too late to figure out the environmental impact of it, and I hope we do. We don't want to build a future at the cost of the planet.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  And the planetary health. So I I think it's possible that we can get both. I really do.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  When you think about AI, like, what's the worst that could happen? Like, in terms of, like, what is the most dystopian future that you could imagine if, like, everything goes wrong?

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Oh, goodness. The worst case scenario with AI, there are quite a few. Maybe some biology bio event, some kind of bio weapon event, and that's becoming less and less implausible, more and more plausible, the more sophisticated AI gets at at creating different novel viruses that can be used for many ways, many things. Sometimes they're being used to figure out antibiotic, to stop antibiotic resistance. Great. I mean, you can also take that technology and design a bio weapon for a specific person based on their microbiome.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  My god.

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  Could be really scary, are hooking AI up to critical infrastructure like water, a water treatment plant, and having it not only just cut off water, but maybe change the chemical balance of water.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  And are you thinking, like, a company would be behind this, or, like, AI would do it on its own?

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Not necessarily a company. I'm not worried about a company intentionally doing that. Companies, for better or for worse, are incentivized to make money.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  So that's usually what they're trying to do, not necessarily like take down a nation. So I would say it'd be much more of probably some form of a foreign adversary.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, terrorist group or hacker.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then in terms of AI doing something on its own, I don't really subscribe to the AI is going to one day rise up for no reason and just turn on everybody. Maybe there are a few scientists working on that scenario. Great, I'm glad that they're funded. I don't think that's the thing that all of us need to try to solve together, everybody in humanity. But it isn't entirely implausible that AI goes about achieving a goal in a way that's not aligned to how we would achieve that goal, and the second order impact of it is something that is a worst case scenario. An example that I like to give is maybe you ask AI to book you a reservation at a restaurant. And if you were to ask your assistant and the reservation was full, your assistant would

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  probably come back and say, sorry, it's full, I probably should have done it earlier, but it's full, where else do you want to go? And AI might think, okay, well, the goal was to book you a spot, so maybe I'll either hack the restaurant and get you a spot, and there you go, goal complete, or I'll try to convince you to go somewhere else, so I don't have to tell you that I failed the goal. And so that's just the kind of easy way to understand when AI is misaligned, but if it's something much more significant, that would probably be a scenario that I wouldn't want to be a part of.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  What are the immediate things that you think government should try to implement now to help regulate AI?

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  That's a great one. I think it's so complex with government because there's so many governments that need to actually be working together. AI can, is not just going to be a national project, it has to be an international one. AI does not walk around with a passport. So we do need governments talking and working together. I think, I mean, maybe not releasing at this point in time the most advanced AI systems that are capable of all of this cybersecurity threats and, because that could have many economic impacts, you don't want to crash the stock market, so many different things could go wrong, hacking a hospital. So maybe government could step in and say, I don't think we need to be, if we cannot

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  control AI right now, or we don't have the cybersecurity infrastructure to protect against it, we're just not ready for this latest version of this model, you need to be able to hold that. I think pressuring companies to invest much more in safety with their systems, reliability, explainability, if we can follow AI's reasoning better, if we can ensure that it's much more reliable, we're much less likely to end up in these kind of strange scenarios that we don't want. So I think that there's a lot that can be done.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  Are people doing it? Who is incentivized to do what is a whole other nightmare.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  And what are you most optimistic about when it comes to AI? Like, how do you feel like it's going to help? Like, what are the big things that you see it doing in terms of improving our world?

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  I mean, I think healthcare is one I think a lot of people are very excited about, myself included. AI is wired to handle a lot more complexity than the human brain, and and the human body is one whole system, but because it's so complex, we've branched it out out into specialties. So somebody is a specialist of, you know, the stomach of this, of that. I think AI is going to do some really interesting things of kind of allowing us to see the body in a whole system.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  And if you can bring diagnostics into the home, if we can get it right, and reliability right, being able to catch stuff before it turns into a crisis, I don't know anyone who doesn't want that.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  So if we can figure out how to get that right and safe, I think that's going to be awesome. And even something like legal services, so many people just don't have the ability to, the financial means, to go and have their real estate contract reviewed by a lawyer, or they want to start a small business, and they sign some shammy property agreement because they just didn't have the funds to do that. If we can have AI systems that are much more reliable and people can pass that to an AI for 25 cents, and it lowers the barriers to starting your own business or making different decisions, I think that's going to be awesome.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Yep. I'm not a futurist, of course, and I don't have your credentials, but when I think about the future of AI, the fact that we'll have a lot more free time, hopefully, there might be universal-based income, or like, people just might have more abundance, I think we'll become more human, and I think that will, I don't think all parts of the world will get there as fast, right? So I feel like in the US and like, UK, like, we'll be more advanced, but I think that will give us an opportunity to go help people that are struggling or solve world hunger and and like, we'll be able to use our capacity that we used to use for our regular job to actually like, help humanity and make sure that, like, nobody goes hungry.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  And like, I just feel like charity work will become a lot more popular.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Community-based

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  work could be, and that could be something, yeah, I mean, if there's things that we're able to automate that and that also nobody wanted to do to begin with, and people are have the the means and the teammates now to be able to go to different world projects or local community projects, because now they have a team that's going to handle the finances, they're AIs, handle the legal contracts, they're AIs, and they want to deal with, you know, animal fosters or doing something globally, that's going to be really cool if we can unlock that potential for people. I think we are going to work less, no matter what.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  No matter how fast AI moves or doesn't move, we've always been working less. I think a three-day work week is absolutely in the cards. And I think it's important that people know about that, because, so let's say AI can shave off a lot of time for an organization and they are much more productive.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  Do you get to bank that time back, or do they just cash it in in terms of making more money? So I think a world in which we can work less and where also can reap the benefits of it, I think will be great.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's stick on that. So you're basically talking about like, how people actually get compensated moving forward.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think there will be a stretch where we'll probably start to work less after the dust has settled in this transition. And so maybe that looks like a three-day, a three-day work week. And again, if that seems fantastical, so is the idea of a five-day work week, so is the idea of working every day for somebody else, you had a factory with a steam engine. So all of these things were just kind of strange technological transitions. So a world in which we could work three days because we're much more productive or much more efficient would, is absolutely in the cards.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  I was talking to Gary Vee about this yesterday, and he, his perspective, at least in the short term, was really interesting. So he was basically saying, like, when it comes to headcount, he thinks of his employees as like an army, and AI is a better weapon. If he's competing against a company that has 2,000 employees, he's got 2,000 employees. Uh, if he cuts his employees in half, but everybody has the same weapons, like he's gonna lose. So for him, he's like, well, I'm not cutting my employees because it just builds more capacity. It's not really necessarily about like reducing headcount. It's like, how do we make this bigger and do more?

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, the myth is that AI is there to cut people and replace people with AIs. That's a really short term and short sighted way to think about it. I see it much more as a top line technology. It should be there to drive revenue. What new markets can you now play in much more fiercely that you couldn't play in before? If your staff are powered by supercomputers, what can they do now? Um, and I think that's a much longer term way to view it than just kind of trimming your organization. And now the whole environment that you're competing in also looks different. And now you have no people to operate in it. So yeah, I'm much more on Gary's side there.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  All right, I'm going to end this conversation with another game.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Called Bet on It. All right, so I'm going to give you two choices. Some of it we've talked about today, but I want you to basically bet on what scenario is actually going to happen.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  Bet one, AI makes the average person smarter versus AI makes the average person less capable of thinking independently.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  I have to bet on one.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  You have to bet on one.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  I have to, goodness, I have to hitch my hitch my aspirations uh to number one.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  So AI makes the average person smarter. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what's happened in the past, right?

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I ha- I feel like if we design towards that, then hopefully we steer towards it. Um, so that one could be much more aspirational than probable, but I have to bet on one.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Okay, but number two, we were just talking about this. AI gives us more free time versus AI simply raises the expected output of every worker.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  So short term, I think it's two, it raises the output and we're actually just busier and doing busy, busier nonsense. Long term, I think we'll have more, more free time.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  But three, a one person billion dollar company versus mass adoption of AI agents inside traditional companies. You feel like it's going to be like companies of one? Or do you just feel like companies are going to have their employees adopt AI?

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  I would bet on the, the newer companies that are going to be AI first. And maybe that's one person, maybe that's two people and they're designed with AI from the beginning. Um, and sure, they could be worth billions. Uh, I think smaller companies are going to be the future for sure. So I, I would bet, I mean, I'd have to see the person.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  But yeah, I think that if they're super capable and they know the industry well, that would be an interesting bet to make.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Okay, bet four, smart glasses replace smartphones versus smartphones remain dominant through 2035.

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  So in nine years, will we likely be on our smartphones or will we be using smart glasses? The reason why I might go with smartphones is because I don't think it's going to be glasses.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think it's going to be glasses either.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  I think that there'll be subset of people that use them. And I think that they'll be functional in certain ways. Uh, and maybe I'm entirely wrong about this, but I think it's going to be a different type of device that makes more sense for this technology. So I, I would go with the smartphone.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Or some other device.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, some of, if there was another, if there was an option three, I would go with that.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Another device, okay. Bet five, AI creates more jobs than it destroys versus AI destroys more jobs than it creates.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Maybe less jobs, but more work. Cause I think it's not going to look like jobs. So I think it's going to look like, like how you, how our days are so varied. What part of it is your job? And what is the one job? So I think it's people like the idea of jobs will start to make less sense. And people will work, but it won't be considered just a job for an employer. And so it'll just look very different.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems like the whole world is going to look very different. Okay, bet six, this is the last one. AI assistants becoming trusted purchasing agents versus humans keeping wanting to browse and choose for themselves.

• 1:15:03Speaker 02

  I don't think we're going to be browsing anywhere.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Really? You think it's done? What if you enjoy shopping?

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  Sure. I don't think shopping is going to go away. Browsing on the internet will. We'll, we'll shop in different ways. So yes, I, I enjoy making final decisions and, but I think the idea of a browser.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  We probably won't even use that word in a decade. Uh, and I think it's going to be similar to when everyone said, there's no way I am shopping online. Like there's no way I'm bought, how am I going to buy a shirt online? I haven't even tried it on and my whole outfit's from online. I think eventually whatever comes next, won't be browsing on the internet. Uh, but it will just be shopping in a different way.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Totally. It's also super inefficient. Like right now we're shopping, we're ordering things in two sizes, we're returning the other stuff. It's just like such a waste.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  And you're going through a row after page one, page two, page five.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  How much time have I spent doing that?

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Didn't, yeah, and just looking at the same things.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  This was an awesome conversation. I feel like we covered so much ground.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  We did cover a lot.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Uh, before we go, you're speaking to hundreds of thousands of entrepreneurs right now. What do you want them to know?

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  I mean, this is such an important moment for entrepreneurs. The skills you've built as an entrepreneur, you're self-directed, right? You're self motivated. This is such an awesome moment for you. Uh, if there was ever a time to take that additional bet, uh, or even if you're thinking of stepping into an entrepreneurship game, I think now is the time uh, to lean into this technology in terms of as a springboard. Uh, and if there's ever ambitious goals that you wanted to add to your, to your dreams or to your pipeline, go after it now.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Sinead, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Yap, fam, you guys know that we love staying ahead of the curve. And when it comes to AI, that means more than knowing the latest tools. It means understanding what we gain from this technology, but also what we slowly give up if we let it do too much of our thinking. One of my biggest takeaways from Sinead is that AI should be an input, not the decision. Before you ask it, what to do, think through the problem yourself. Decide what a good answer would even look like. Then bring AI in as a sparring partner. Let it challenge your assumptions, poke holes in your argument, or surface something that you missed. That keeps you in the driver's seat while still getting the benefits of the technology. And that connects directly to Sinead's idea of cognitive friction.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  We're so used to thinking that easier is always better, but some struggle is actually useful. Reading a long argument, writing notes by hand, or working through a problem yourself forces your brain to engage. Sinead compared it to going to the gym. If there are mental skills you still want to have for five or 10 years from now, you've got to keep exercising these skills. That same thinking applies to your career. Sinead calls what's coming the independence era. As AI changes, the tasks inside our jobs, the title on your LinkedIn profile may matter less than the skills underneath it. So instead of only asking what your role is, get clear on what problems you can solve and what abilities you can bring into different environments. The more fluid your work becomes, the more valuable that adaptability will be.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  For me, that's the bigger lesson from today. The goal isn't to compete with AI or avoid it. It's to use it without slowly handing over your judgment, your skills, your agency in the process. Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting. If you know somebody who's using AI for everything right now, send them this episode to get the conversation going. And if you learned something today, drop us a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcasts. These reviews help more people discover the show. We also recorded this one in person live in New York City. So go watch the full conversation on YouTube or Spotify. This is definitely one that you want to listen to more than once. You can follow me on Instagram, TikTok and X at Yap with Hala and LinkedIn at Hala Taha.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  And this is your host, Hala Taha, AKA The Podcast Princess, signing off.