Brad Stulberg: Six Mental Health Principles Entrepreneurs Need to Beat Burnout | Mental Health | YAPClassic

Brad Stulberg experienced a severe mental health crisis in his early 30s, battling OCD, intrusive thoughts, anxiety, and suicidal ideation while outwardly succeeding as a performance coach. This disconnect between his external achievements and internal struggles pushed him to reevaluate how he defined success and excellence. Through therapy, psychiatry, and extensive research, he developed six principles of groundedness to support sustainable success during both good and difficult times. In this episode, Brad explains how groundedness can reduce burnout and promote long-term mental health, wellness, and performance. In this episode, Hala and Brad will discuss: (00:00) Introduction (02:29) Brad’s Career Path to Performance Coaching (07:25) The 2017 Mental Health Crisis and OCD (18:53) The Science Behind Groundedness (21:01) Understanding Heroic Individualism (34:10) The Six Principles of Groundedness (44:09) Developing Patience for Long-Term Success (49:53) How Vulnerability Builds Real Confidence (54:53) Embracing Emotional Flexibility for Wellness (57:11) The Importance of Building Deep Community (01:03:02) How Movement Supports Mental Health Brad Stulberg is a bestselling author, executive coach, and researcher focused on mental health, sustainable success, and human performance. He regularly contributes to The New York Times, and his work has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, among other outlets. In his coaching practice, Brad works with executives, entrepreneurs, physicians, and athletes on their mental skills and overall well-being. Sponsored By: Indeed - Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com/profiting Shopify - Start your $1/month trial at Shopify.com/profiting. Spectrum Business - Visit Spectrum.com/FreeForLife to learn how you can get Business Internet Free Forever. Northwest Registered Agent - Build your brand and get your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes at northwestregisteredagent.com/paidyap Framer - Publish beautiful and production-ready websites. Go to Framer.com/profiting and get 30% off their Framer Pro annual plan. Quo - Run your business communications the smart way. Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to quo.com/profiting Working Genius - Take the Working Genius assessment and discover your natural gifts and thrive at work. Go to workinggenius.com and get 20% off with code PROFITING Experian - Manage and cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reduce your bills. Get started now with the Experian App and let your Big Financial Friend do the work for you. See experian.com for details. Huel -  Get all the daily nutrients you need with Huel. Grab Huel today and get 15% OFF with my code PROFITING at huel.com/PROFITING. Resources Mentioned: Brad’s Book, The Practice of Groundedness: bit.ly/Groundednes Brad’s Book, Peak Performance: bit.ly/Per4mance Brad’s Instagram: instagram.com/bradstulberg/ Active Deals - youngandprofiting.com/deals Key YAP Links Reviews - ratethispodcast.com/yap YouTube - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Newsletter - youngandprofiting.co/newsletter LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ Social + Podcast Services: yapmedia.com Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com/episodes-new Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship Podcast, Business, Business Podcast, Self Improvement, Self-Improvement, Personal Development, Starting a Business, Strategy, Investing, Sales, Selling, Psychology, Productivity, Entrepreneurs, AI, Artificial Intelligence, Technology, Marketing, Negotiation, Money, Finance, Side Hustle, Startup, Mental Health, Career, Leadership, Mindset, Health, Growth Mindset, Biohacking, Motivation, Manifestation, Brain Health, Life Balance, Self-Healing, Positivity, Happiness, Sleep, Diet

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hala Taha?

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• 0:43Hala Taha?

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• 1:20Hala Taha?

  What's going on, young and profiteers? Today's Yap Classic is all about redefining success from the inside out. If you've ever found yourself grinding non-stop, hitting milestone after milestone, yet still feeling like it's just never enough, this conversation is going to hit home. I sat down with bestselling author, researcher, and human performance coach Brad Stulberg to unpack groundedness, which is his research-backed antidote to burnout, anxiety, and the non-stop chase for more. Brad went from coaching elite performers and writing books on peak performance to privately battling severe OCD, intrusive thoughts, and a total mental collapse. That breaking point led him to redefine success around six principles of groundedness. In this episode, Brad shows us how to loosen our grip on heroic individualism,

• 2:03Hala Taha?

  relate to our emotions more skillfully, build deep community, and still pursue big goals without losing ourselves. It's an essential listen for all of us high achievers and young and profiteers, especially in the new year. So without further ado, let's get into this interview with Brad Stulberg.

• 2:22Hala Taha?

  I'd love to get more color about your background. So would you kindly walk us through your career path? And how you first got into performance, coaching and writing? And some of your proudest accomplishments?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been a really circuitous path. To be honest, I've always just kind of vaguely followed my interests and somehow ended up here. I'll do my best to do it quickly, but it really started all the way back in high school. When I fell in love with writing. And like most high school kids, I thought, okay, well, I'm going to be a writer. And I applied to Northwestern University's Journalism School, which is one of the best in the country, if not in the world. And I didn't get in. And again, like most 16, 17 year old kids, I said, oh, all right, I guess I'm not going to be a writer. And I went on to a different school.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  I studied economics and psychology. And I then took a job at the consulting firm McKinsey and Company. And throughout school, throughout that first early job experience, what I didn't realize is that I was actually always writing. So even at a place like McKinsey, I was never the person building the financial model. I was always the person doing the memo for the client or coming up with the PowerPoint slide deck, telling some sort of story. And when I was at McKinsey and Company, I became really interested in health and healthcare. And I got a bird's eye view to all the ways that our healthcare system, at least here in America, is not the best. So that led me to public health school.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  And it was there that I kind of had this aha moment, at least for myself, that there's really two ways to go about healthcare. One is the care part, which is often disease driven. And the other is the health part, which is, well, how do we stay healthy? How do we thrive? How do we keep ourselves out of the traditional healthcare system to begin with? And that set me on this path to exploring all things human performance, health and wellbeing. And through a whole bunch of just grind and pitching and getting rejected and getting rejected some more, I eventually got lucky and got some of my writing placed, which led to getting more writing placed.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  And it's just been an upward swirl since then, though I still get declines more often than not.

• 4:48Hala Taha?

  That's awesome. Yeah. And you are the bestselling author of multiple books, which is awesome. And I love how you talked about using your writing skills even when you were in healthcare and how those skills still translated later on when you wanted to become a writer, because a lot of people think that when they get into certain fields that they're kind of locked in. But the fact is, and especially writing, writing cuts across so many different things. And I always say this, especially recently, as I have a marketing agency, and the hardest thing to hire for is people who know how to write well. And I feel like there's this big gap in our society of people who actually know how to write compelling stories. And this storytelling capability, I feel like, is so needed right now, especially when everyone's so focused on tech skills.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what I didn't realize, and what's so interesting in hindsight, is that I was training to become a nonfiction writer at McKinsey and Company. Because if you think about what a big consulting study is, a client comes to you and says, we've got this thorny problem, and we want you to solve it. And then you do all kinds of research, you interview experts, and you craft a bunch of hypotheses as to how to solve that problem. And then you explore them. And then if you're any good at your job, you come up with a decent solution, and you also tell the client all the ways that you might be wrong. And that is the exact same framework that I use to do my nonfiction writing. I define a problem, I do research, I interview experts to try to get to a solution. And then I also ask

• 6:18Speaker 01

  myself, well, how might I be wrong? What are some other solutions that could work too? So I never realized it at the time. I certainly wasn't thinking to myself, oh, this is good training to be a consultant, or excuse me, in consulting to be a writer. It's only something I saw in hindsight.

• 6:34Hala Taha?

  Totally. I love this story. I love skill stacking and hearing people stacking their skills and how they translated skills from one field to another. It's my favorite thing to talk about. But I want to move on. So let's take everybody to 2017. This was a dark time in your life. You were around 31 years old. To the external world, you had everything going on. You were an expert on human performance, already training elite Athletes and coaching entrepreneurs. You were a bestselling author on peak performance. But inside you were suffering and you developed OCD. And you actually started getting suicidal thoughts and self harm thoughts and anxiety. And it kind of came up out of nowhere from my understanding.

• 7:15Hala Taha?

  So talk to us about that time in your life, because I think that was really the trigger for you to start thinking about success differently.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it definitely did, as you mentioned, blindside me from nowhere. I had no prior history with depression or anxiety, at least not that I knew of. And it was like a switch in my brain got flipped in a devastatingly wrong direction. I was fortunate to have such a stark experience between before and after that it didn't take me long to get help. I was very quick to go to my partner Caitlin and say like, something is wrong with my brain. This is scary. I need help. And I think that in my story, the pivotal moment was getting help and getting a diagnosis of obsessive compulsive disorder.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Because I thought I had some kind of like unrelenting depression. But it actually is a fairly common theme in OCD to become obsessed with the potential to hurt yourself or to hurt others. And constantly have these intrusive thoughts and then try to make them go away. And then the thoughts get worse and it's just this vicious cycle. And I was fortunate enough to see a wonderful therapist and psychiatrist that fairly quickly diagnosed me with OCD. Began treating me based on the evidence for OCD. And though at the time it felt like forever, each minute felt like a day, each day felt like a year. It was probably about six to eight months where I was really in it.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Before I started to see out of the dark forest and get to the other side. And during that time period, as you said, I began to just reevaluate, well, what does success even mean? And what does it mean to be excellent? And before I had this experience, I thought that I Knew what depression or anxiety or OCD was. And it's as if you look across a river and you see people on the other side of the river. And you're like, oh, I can see what they're going through. I get it. But it wasn't until I myself was on the other side of the river that I actually had any idea what it meant to be depressed, what it meant to be anxious. And it really did lead to like a reevaluating of kind of the basic principles

• 9:34Speaker 01

  that I think and that I write about. And it's not to say that the first two books aren't defensible. The way that I like to talk about it is those books are for when everything is clicking and everything is going well. Groundedness is much more about what's the foundation that is going to hold you, not only when things are going well, but also when things aren't. And what's funny is because it recently came out, everyone thinks it's a pandemic book. So they think I wrote this book because we're all going through this pandemic. And outside of people in book publishing, that makes sense. But the truth is, it takes like three to four years to publish a book. So the manuscript was mostly done before the pandemic. And I think what the pandemic has shown is that, yes, well, we experience these things differently. Suffering is universal and anxiety is universal.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  And it ebbs and flows for different folks at different times of their lives. And yet it is part of the human experience.

• 10:26Hala Taha?

  Yeah, totally. And it's funny because when I think of OCD, like you just mentioned, you have no idea what it's like. I don't have it. I don't have depression. So when I think of OCD, I think of like compulsive hand washing and things like that. But but it's way more than that. So can you give us more detail in terms of what OCD really is?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm glad that you asked, and I wasn't sure. I didn't want to go in this direction because it can take time to explain, but let's do it because I think it's important. So as you pointed out, OCD is often portrayed in movies, in books as hyper-organization or being a neat freak or having to have everything perfectly in order. And while OCD can manifest that way, that's certainly not the only way it manifests, and that's probably not even clinical OCD. So actual clinical OCD is defined by an intrusive thought or feeling.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  That constantly bombards you. So in my case, that intrusive thought was, I might harm myself. Or I might be like this forever. And then the feeling that accompanies that thought is 10 out of 10 anxiety despair. So it's this web of like a really shitty feeling with a really shitty thought. And then with OCD, the compulsion is trying to make it go away. So for some people, that compulsion is counting to 10. Or if I just wash my hands, then I'll never get sick and I won't die. My compulsion was very internal. So what I did is I tried to problem solve my way out of it.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  So I'd go Google depression and suicidal ideation and try to convince myself that I wasn't actually going to do it. And what that does is it gives you relief maybe for a minute. But then the OCD brain says, well, what if you're wrong? What if you actually are going to do it? Followed by bad depression, bad anxiety accompanying those, and you get into this cycle. So the themes of OCD too, they're really bizarre, but they're really common. And I think it's important, just in case listeners might be going through this and are ashamed to get help. So I thought like, this is nuts. This is just happening to me. There's no one else that's constantly worried about this or constantly questioning the meaning of life. But sure enough, it's like one of the big 10 themes of OCD is existential OCD, which is just that.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Like, what's the point of it? Another form of OCD that I fortunately have never had this theme, but again, is really common, but people are ashamed to talk about it, is you think that you're going to randomly push someone in front of a car or push someone onto the tracks of a subway. So then you don't leave your house. Or when you do, you get so anxious because you think that you're going to do this thing. And the person experiencing that thinks they're a psychopath. They think they're crazy, but actually it's the fact that they don't want to do it. And then it's accompanied by so much anxiety that makes it OCD. So to zoom out from the weeds, it's some sort of intrusive thought and feeling that is like 10 out of 10 bad, accompanied by some kind of compulsion that you do to make it go away,

• 13:33Speaker 01

  which can be something external like counting, like organizing, like washing your hands. But it can also be something internal, like problem solving or trying to convince yourself all the reasons you won't do that bad thing.

• 13:45Hala Taha?

  Yeah, thank you for explaining that because I really think that a lot of people have OCD wrong. So I'd love to learn how you pulled yourself out of it. Was it the writing of this book that really helped you figure it out? Or how did you get yourself out of that? Or is it something that you never get out of?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I think it's a little bit of both. So what I'd say is that I still have OCD, but my experiences of it are much less frequent. And when I have them, I have tools and they're less intense. So if these intrusive thoughts and feelings used to take up eight, nine hours of a day, and that's what it was like when it was bad, now maybe it's a few hours a month. How did I get there? The short answer is through eight months of therapy and medication. And I am so grateful, again, that I got the right care. I got in treatment early. And now I meet with my therapist about once a month, but now it's more just like a coaching

• 14:46Speaker 01

  relationship, since I do have the skills to navigate the OCD when it comes on. But yeah, for those eight months, it was pretty intensive therapy. And then the book helps me make sense of all this. So at first, I'm going through this, and I want to intellectualize it, and I want to problem solve. And actually, that just makes it worse. So when I was in the thick of it, the thought of writing, I would be faking it, going through the motions, like there was no, I was not in good enough mental health to create any kind of good intellectual work. When I got to the other side of it, that's when I could look back and examine, hey, here are the things that I've learned in therapy. Here are maybe some of the things that I've overlooked in the past. And oh, when I hear so many people that I work with

• 15:29Speaker 01

  in my coaching practice complaining about being restless, or never being able to turn it off, or constantly checking their email or social media, I now have this new framework to think about it, which are, sure, these aren't extreme clinical obsessions, but so many of the things in day to day life that make us feel restless and anxious are very similar in the fact that they're things that we don't want to be thinking about, or we don't want to be feeling, but we feel like we get sucked into them and we're not Not really sure how. And that became the operating hypothesis on the book. I think something else to say that's really important is about four to five months, let's see, no, actually, it's closer to seven months into experiencing OCD.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  I decided to write an essay that went into pretty like intense detail about my experience. And the genesis of that was exactly what you said when we brought up this topic. To the outside world, I'm like thirty one year old whiz kid coaching world-class athletes and executives and a bestselling book and another one on the way. But inside, I'm totally falling to pieces. And the cognitive dissonance that I felt when I get emails from people along the lines of, how'd you figure it out? Tell me about your path, especially young men, like, how did you get to do what you did? And then I'm feeling like it just that became almost as bad as the OCD itself.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And at that point, I'm like, I'm either gonna stop doing this kind of work or I need to reconcile that this is a part of me, but I can't hide it. And a psychiatrist told me that a huge part of peak performance, which was literally the title of my first book, is the ability to play through the pain. And that really stuck with me. So I wrote this essay saying, hey, some of you might think that I'm a fraud, I'm a fake, you're never gonna wanna work with me again. But this is my experience, this is what I'm experiencing right now. And I believe that I can know and coach towards these concepts and struggle myself. And I was a little bit scared about the response to that essay, of course. But it was so overwhelmingly positive.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  And I think that was another aha moment when all these people that I never would have guessed come out of the woodwork emailing me about, oh, me too. Or I have bad depression, or I've experienced anxiety, or, oh, I've never felt like this, but my colleague has. And you've given me a whole new way to think about it. And that was, I think, that my own experience plus that was the juncture that led me to say that, hey, I've spent enough time exploring the evidence-based principles for when everything is clicking, the top of the metaphorical mountain, now I want to explore the base.

• 18:05Hala Taha?

  I love that. That's so interesting. And like you said, you were familiar with doing research already from your previous books and then also your previous career. So what kind of research did you do for this groundedness book to uncover those six principles? Because groundedness, turns out, it's not really new. There's a lot of like ancient history and traditions that you researched as well.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  So I wanted to be really broad in this approach. And that's because I wanted to get as close to truth with a capital T. And what I mean by that is principles that I can be confident apply to most people in most situations. So I thought of the research process as a three-legged stool. And one leg of that stool was what I'll call modern empirical science. So what are the findings in peer-reviewed studies? What are the findings in meta-analyses or studies of studies? The second leg of that stool is history and ancient wisdom. So what themes are prevalent across various perennial wisdom traditions?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Buddhism, Taoism, Stoicism? What themes have applied at some points of history but not others? And then the third leg of the stool is daily, concrete practicality. So when I go talk to people that are practicing groundedness out in their lives, that are experiencing a more fulfilling, easeful kind of success, what are they doing? And I spent about a year, just thousands of note cards, laying out all of these findings and themes, and boiling down, boiling down, boiling down, to eventually these six principles that kept coming up in all three of those areas. So in the modern science, in the ancient wisdom

• 19:52Speaker 01

  and history, and in daily practice of people in the world today. And the reason I said three-legged stool is if you think about a stool, if it's got three legs, it's sturdy. You can be confident it's going to hold you. It's got two legs, it's wobbly. If it's got one or zero legs, it's not going to work. And since groundedness is all about like a foundation to hold you, I felt like I really had to be sure that everything in this book has all three legs.

• 20:16Hala Taha?

  I love that. And it's really full of like amazing material. And I really enjoyed reading this book. So let's get into some of the key phrases that you talk about in this book and some definitions. So you talk about heroic individualism, and you say it leads to unhappiness and burnout, and it is perpetuated by modern culture that relentlessly says you need to be better, feel better, think more positively, have more, and optimize your life. I'll confess that Young and Profiting Podcast talks a lot about that kind of stuff. So talk to us about heroic individualism and what's wrong with that.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Well, so you defined it from the book. And I think that the, the way that I think about it when it becomes problematic, is when you're more worried about beating yourself or other people than you are about the actual effort and your level of presence in the moment. And this manifests in what I call if then syndrome. So if I just get 5,000 subscribers to my newsletter, then I'll be happy. If I just publish my first book, then I'll be content. If I just win that NBA championship, or that Olympic gold medal, or if I just get

• 21:31Speaker 01

  that series B round of funding, then I'll feel like I have real self-worth. And that is an illusion as old as time. Literally, Stoicism and Buddhism were both, in some ways, created to address that illusion. Modern science, we call this the arrival fallacy. And it's just that. It's this notion that if I just do this, then I'll arrive. And I think that heroic individualism often can perpetuate that by telling us that we need to get something out in front of us for ourselves to feel whole. And groundedness is not about checking out into a monastery and letting go of striving and desire. What it's about

• 22:11Speaker 01

  is trying to channel striving, desire, motivation, energy drive, in more skillful, productive ways. So if you think about, there's two ways to climb a mountain. And this can be a real mountain, but it can also Be a metaphorical mountain. You can think of this as career advancement, relationship advancement, you name it. And one way is to constantly be thinking about the top of the mountain and thinking about the selfies that you're going to take when you get there and how good you're going to feel when you finally arrive. The other way is to just be where you freaking are and to even enjoy the view from the side, to have fun as you're climbing. And what I argue in the book and what the science supports is not only do you obviously feel better if you're having fun and you're grounded

• 22:55Speaker 01

  as you're climbing, but you also perform better because carrying the weight of that anxiety to need to get somewhere is never, never, never, ever helpful. Whereas if you can be free and you can be both good enough now and truly have self-confidence and believe that you're good enough now and want to get better because you're curious and it's fun, that kind of energy and drive is so much more sustainable. The last thing I'll say, because I think that it is such a ripe topic for listeners of this podcast, is it's not all or nothing, right? We're all on a continuum between like heroic individualism and groundedness. And the point of this book is just to help people shift a little bit more towards groundedness. I know this myself. The week that my book comes out, I am spending

• 23:38Speaker 01

  more time than I want to admit in heroic individual mode. I'm checking my sales rank. I'm trying to get op-eds placed in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal and I'm constantly checking to see if I got emails back from editors. I did it for a week, but then I put this really hard boundary on it because I know that that's ultimately unhealthy. And I'm using myself as an example to elucidate that A, it's very hard to be like 100% on this. And if you get it 60% right, it's good. And then B, so much of heroic individualism is the environment that we operate in. So it's all fun and good to say be where you are, so on and so forth. But then when you try to sell sponsorship for a podcast and they're like, how many downloads do you have? Well, that number matters. So it's not saying

• 24:22Speaker 01

  that these end results, these peaks don't matter. It's just trying to help us feel a little bit better as we strive and have our self-worth be something more than an external result, which again, the big paradox is that gives you the best chance at getting the external result and actually enjoying it when you do.

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• 25:50Hala Taha?

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• 28:03Hala Taha?

  Heygen.com/profitting. You know, it's so funny. I've been doing this podcast for almost four years. And the first two, three years, I feel like nobody talked about this need for balance and being grounded. And the last year, so many people that I've interviewed have lightly touched on this topic in one way or another. The last question I ask all my guests is, what is your secret to profiting in life? And a lot of people will be like, don't get too stuck in the highs and the lows, or like, enjoy the journey. It's not just about the ultimate outcome. But nobody was saying that two or three years ago. Like, this is like some new thing that I feel like everyone is really starting to realize. And I think it's because so many people are getting burnt out.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that and the pandemic, which has helped people evaluate their priorities in life. And I think what's really nice about words like profiting or success is you get to define what they mean. And I think a part of the problem is people hear profiting and they think more money or a fancy watch or a bigger house. And people think success and they hear promotion. Whereas profiting can also mean knowing your core values and crafting a life that is in alignment with them. And that might mean turning down a promotion. If you don't want to manage a team of 100 people because you like doing creative work, well then what's profiting? Having that big manager role and making more money or being able to do the

• 29:24Speaker 01

  work that you love? So a big part of groundedness is redefining your owning your own definition of success and is an extension in your language of profiting. And this isn't stuff that is worth thinking about if your basic needs aren't met, right? If you are experiencing homelessness or you're working two jobs at minimum wage, this isn't for you and it's unfortunate and like there's got to be bigger structural change to help people in that experience. But for many young, old professionals, even retired folks that do have that base level of security and are structurally sound, it sounds like such a cliche, but I often

• 30:07Speaker 01

  think striving sometimes in the wrong way gets in the way more than it helps.

• 30:13Hala Taha?

  I totally agree. It's such an important topic, so super happy we're discussing it. So sticking on heroic individualism, we love actionable advice on this podcast. So what are some questions that we can ask ourselves to see if we are in this frame of mind?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  So there's a few that immediately come to mind. So these are like the key signs of heroic individualism. One is you're exhausted, but you have no idea why and you're actually sleeping well. Another is that you don't feel good when you're working all the time, but when you try to turn it off, you don't feel good either. This is something that comes up for me when I'm writing. I have a really hard time turning it off. Another telltale sign is that you dread working. You dread going on social media and posting, but you also dread not doing it. So it's a feeling of stuckness. Like, I have to keep pushing, but I don't really want to push. But if I stop, I'm scared. But if I keep doing it, I feel like crap.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Another is restlessness or inability to focus. So a lot of people will now come to me and say, "I don't know what happened to me. I used to love reading and I can't read a book anymore. I'm reaching for my phone every two minutes. I don't have the attention span." And then I think one other one that's really important to mention is feelings of not being enough in a way that isn't healthy and motivating, but in a way that is really self-judgmental. So it's one thing to say, "Hey, I'm at point A and I want to expand and get to point B because I'm curious and I'm going to grow." That's wonderful. It's another thing to say that I'm at point A and I won't feel like I have internal inherent worth until I get to point B.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  And that is, like, by definition, the wrong way to strive. And we often end up less happy than more, even if we get to that place.

• 32:05Hala Taha?

  Yeah. For me, I feel like... I don't feel like I have heroic individualism because I love accomplishing the next goal, accomplishing the next goal. And I don't get this feeling of not... Like, I love the moment and I love accomplishing my next goal. So is there, like, a personality-type thing that we need to be aware of in terms of, like, who actually gets impacted by this?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  So what happens when you don't accomplish a goal?

• 32:34Hala Taha?

  I just figure out a new solution to, like, keep going at it. Like, I don't get that low because I've faced a lot of rejection in my life. So I kind of know how to, like, quickly just figure something else out and either focus on a new goal very quickly or try to figure out how to accomplish the goal that I originally wanted, so...

• 32:52Speaker 01

  And then I hope this isn't, like, turning into, like, a personal coaching session, but then how do you define... How do you define success?

• 32:59Hala Taha?

  Success to me is working on the things that I love.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Done, alright, done. I'm interjecting. So that is beautiful, and that's likely why you're not experiencing this. So if you love the work that you're doing, if you love climbing, then yeah, you want to get to the top of the mountain and it will feel good if you do. But if you don't, you're going to be like, whatever, I didn't get to the top of that mountain. Maybe it'll hurt, maybe you'll be down for a day or two, but then you'll start climbing again because you genuinely like climbing. Heroic individualism comes into play when you are so worried about the goal that you cannot any longer enjoy the process of getting there. And it's like this, this thing that often creeps in. Because the path that a lot of people take is you start doing something because it's fun and you like it.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  You start a podcast, you literally, when you start, have zero subscribers. But you like podcasting, it sounds like an interesting thing. And then you get good at it, and suddenly you get subscribers, and you get media coverage, and you get people talking about you. And it's at that point that it gets harder to focus on doing the work itself, to focus on the process of the work, not the outcome. Because suddenly you've got all these bright and shiny objects around you that you can chase. And the job of groundedness is to, if you think of it, on one end, you're just chasing the bright and shiny object. On the other end, you're just focused on the work. Groundedness tries to keep you closer to the end where you're just focused on the work. And I think it's an especially important quality in today's world

• 34:30Speaker 01

  because more and more, people do have to be their own publicist, and they do have to be their own marketer, and they do have to develop their own brand. So if you want to go into a creative pursuit, it's not like the days of the old where you can just go into a hermitage and write a great book and it'll sell a million copies. If you don't tell people about your book, it's not going to sell any copies. So how do you arm yourself to go out into the world, to swim in this water of dopamine and external validation and results, without getting completely drowned by it? Does that make sense?

• 35:00Hala Taha?

  Yes, it does.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  So it's like centering yourself on doing the work more so than the external stuff. But I think that oftentimes too, people get into this trap where they're like, "Oh, I don't care about results, all I care about is the work." It's bullshit. Like, if you're saying that, you're projecting. Because it's normal to care about results. So the goal isn't to be perfect, the goal is just never to let that obsession with results... Become a more important force than the obsession with the work itself.

• 35:28Hala Taha?

  Totally. And I think another reason why I'm having trouble kind of resonating with this is because I'm not one to be like, I'm gonna do this in five years. And this is what I just kind of like go with the flow and just keep making little progress, little progress until it ends up being something big. So I feel like I do probably have my nose to the ground a bit, which helps me stay grounded, I guess.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's such a part of it, right? There's, there's a whole section in the book on this notion of like consistency compounds. So if heroic individualism loves the all nighter that you post on LinkedIn, or the video of you doing CrossFit where you puke at the end, groundedness loves the, hey, I inched myself forward today, but I didn't destroy myself, so I'll be able to pick up again tomorrow. And again, it's such a part of this notion of being in the process, being present allows you to be consistent. Whereas if you're constantly focused on crushing yourself, or crushing it, or optimizing all the time, then that might look good in the short term, but will lead to eventually

• 36:30Speaker 01

  burnout in the long term. So like, the way that I like to put it is, an all nighter every once in a while, it happens, it's fun to talk about it, great. But if your identity becomes, oh, I pull all nighters, that might be great for a year, but try to build a career on that kind of working habits, and you're, you're gonna burn out.

• 36:48Hala Taha?

  Totally. So I'd love to get to those six principles that you researched so diligently for your book. They're super interesting. The first two have to do with presence and patience. Patience is something that I really have a problem with. So if there's anything from your book that I really learned from was this patience thing, because I have zero patience. So I'd love to hear about those first two principles.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  So presence is owning your attention and energy. And I think a lot of people hear presence and they think of it as just being where you are. And that's true, but it's hard to be where you are if where you are is an environment where you're constantly being distracted. So in the book, I argue that presence actually happens upstream of the moment. And if you can own your attention by designing your environment and you can own your energy by being really diligent about what you say yes to and what you say no to, then that actually gives you a chance of being present in the moment. So I think, obviously, there's so much more in the book, but from this podcast, the important thing to take away is we can't just think about present in the present moment. Ironically,

• 37:56Speaker 01

  we have to think about presence upstream of the moment in trying to design your physical environment and your mental, your psychological environment to allow you to be present. If you want to be really present to meditate, probably not great to scroll political Twitter for the 20 minutes before you meditate. Yet, we think that presence is just this thing that we turn on, but it's actually a lifestyle that, again, says, what does it mean for me to be successful? What does it mean for me to profit? And how can I then start building a life that allows me to be present for those things? And for a lot of people, it comes down to identifying the things that distract them, that encroach upon their attention, that are almost like little addictions, where it feels good the first little hit that you

• 38:38Speaker 01

  do, but eventually it makes you feel bad, and then trying to gradually make those things smaller parts of one's life. So that's how I think about presence. So patience is really about this paradox that for most big, meaningful projects in life, going slower today helps you go faster tomorrow. So the principal title in the book is be patient to get there faster. And so often, we don't correctly define the timeframe for our endeavors. So if I want to be the best writer, or the best coach that I can be, or the best interview em podcast like this for the next month,

• 39:24Speaker 01

  I would slam four Red Bulls every day and work for 20 hours. And I'd be great for a month. I'd get so much done and I'd be on my game. But what would happen on day 32, or 33, or 34? I'd totally fall apart. Whereas if I define excellence, performance, success over a year, or a decade, or a career, suddenly, the way in which I work has to look a lot different. So it helps to be able to zoom out and ask yourself, "All right, I want to quote-unquote optimize, or I want to be efficient." That's great, but on what time horizon? Because often, being the most efficient I can be today actually is inefficient for the long haul, especially in creativity.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  We know that creative thoughts and creative feelings happen not when we're doing the work, but when we're daydreaming. So if you're so focused on productivity and efficiency, again, you get a lot out of yourself today, but perhaps you shortchange yourself over the long haul. So the first step of patience is really defining the time horizon that you want to operate on. And then the second part is what you were speaking to earlier about being consistent, is having some restraint. So stopping one rep short. You know that you could crush yourself every day, and it feels really good. It's like in a gym workout, where you just go to fatigue. You feel so worked. But if you try to do that every day, and you chase that feeling, in sports, you end up injured. In the business world, you end up burnt out.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  So patience means stopping one rep short today, so that you give yourself a chance of building an inertia and building a rhythm that you can pick up tomorrow.

• 40:59Hala Taha?

  I love that analogy. That's so good. So I did skip around. I missed the first principle, and that's acceptance. And I think it's super important for us to discuss this as well. So you really have to accept where you are to end up going where you want to go. So can you tell us about that?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Lots of people struggle to see their situation clearly, because you become so close to it. And what ends up happening is, for those that are watching on video, is you fuse with your situation. So this is the situation you're in, this is you, and there's space between. But sometimes you fuse, and when you fuse, it's very hard to see clearly. And if you can't see where you are clearly, then whatever actions you take, whatever habits you try to develop, aren't actually going to help, because you're working on the wrong thing, you're not starting where you are. So acceptance is really about being able to objectively and clearly see your starting point. Now, how do you do this if I just said how easy it is to fuse, especially in meaningful emotional situations? Researchers call this self-distancing.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  And what self-distancing means is creating some space between the thing you're experiencing and your wiser self. Couple ways to do this. One way that I'd love is to pretend that a close friend is in the exact same situation as you, and really visualize that friend going through what you're going through, and then give advice to that friend. And then, of course, you actually have to take that advice yourself. Another way to do this, if you're making, especially if you're making an important decision that feels really tough, is imagine yourself 30 years down the road, looking back on current you. What is 30 years from you now going to be proud of? And then that's the thing that you should do. A third way to do this is through some sort of mindfulness meditation or contemplative

• 42:42Speaker 01

  practice, where your focus is on the breath, you have a thought or feeling, you recognize it, you come back to the breath. Ultimately, what that's training you to do is to be able to see thoughts and feelings as separate entities from yourself, and it's creating that space. And then the fourth thing to do, that is supported both by ancient wisdom and modern science, is to simply name what you're going through. When we name something, researchers call this affect labeling. Back in the Bible, the quote is, "If you give something a name, it loses its power over you." And basically, what you're doing is, once you give something a name, once you put language to something, you allow yourself to wrestle with that thing, and if you're wrestling with it, then it's separate from you.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  So a big part of what I try to do as a writer, actually, is to help people name things that they're experiencing. Because once you can say, "Oh, that's heroic individualism," then instead of just it being it, it can be something that you're experiencing or something that you're struggling with, but you're separate from it, and therefore you can see it more clearly and take wiser action as a result.

• 43:47Hala Taha?

  Yeah, so I interviewed Ethan Cross. He wrote Chatter, and he talks a lot about this, basically, like trying to get out of your head, trying to quiet down the chatter in your head by being objective, kind of taking that wider view, like you said, pretending it's your friend, or pretending that it's not necessarily you, and separating you from your thoughts. So I think that's really good advice, but you also need to make sure it's neutral, right? I think this is a really important part, making that feeling neutral. Why is that important? Can you explain that to us?

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the neutral feeling is important because if you're really charged up, that's going to influence the action that you take. So if you're like in this state of anger or resentment, well, you have to let yourself calm down first, because if you're angry, you're going to give your friend an advice that would say, "Yeah, go punch her in the face," or "Go punch him in the face." Whereas if you can try to come at it a little bit more neutrally, then, again, you can be a little bit wiser. And, you know, in the book I write about all these decisions that people end up regretting tend to be like heat of the moment decisions, right?

• 44:58Speaker 01

  The one that is the most commonly discussed is like extramarital affairs. And the reason that we make poor choices in those situations is because in that moment, you're just completely overwhelmed by passion, by feeling. So whatever advice you're going to give to your friend, you don't even have, your brain can't even turn on. And it's about, again, creating that space to then let your brain turn on and make a wiser decision. And that's where meditation is so effective because you strengthen that muscle. So a lifelong meditator is going to have a much easier time creating space in the moment than someone that's never done it before.

• 45:35Hala Taha?

  Yeah. And what if we find ourselves kind of resisting accepting where we are right now? Like, we're in denial, or we just can't get ourselves to get to that point? What do you recommend?

• 45:49Speaker 01

  I think the first is just the mindset shift that you're never going to get better unless you start with acceptance. So it's the first principle of Buddhism is acceptance in many ways. It's suffering exists, which is accept suffering. Stoicism teaches us that we have to be able to see our situation clearly to do anything about it. All the more recent evidence-based programs for behavioral change all start with acceptance. So I think a lot of people can tell themselves a story, that if I just pretend it's not so, it won't be. And what I'm here to tell you is that the research says that eventually you're going to hit bottom, and you might as well realize it now than wait six months to hit bottom and then do something about it.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  And the last strategy that is perhaps the most powerful is to have people in your life that you love and trust that can say, like, you're seeing things wrong, you're delusional right now. And then you actually have to listen to those people.

• 46:47Hala Taha?

  Yeah. So I'd love to go back to patience, because like I said, this is one that I personally need a lot of help with. I'm sure a lot of young improfitters listening have a problem with patience. In your book, you say, "We need to let things happen instead of always trying to make them happen, and we need to shift from being a seeker to a practitioner." I thought this was really powerful, so I'd love for you to explain that.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. That's one of my favorite parts of the book, too, probably because I also struggle with it. So, you know, I write these things to help myself figure them out in many ways. So making things happen is, to me, effortful focus, and it is driving. It is screwing the wrench tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter until the bolt locks in. And what the research shows is that strategy gets you very, very, very far until it becomes the very thing that gets in your way. So these coveted flow states, I'm sure you've talked about this on the podcast before, where everything's clicking, you're in the zone.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  A big part of those flow states is effortlessness. So, once you get really close to breaking through, to peaking in something, the thing that got you that far, the making things happen, the trying, actually becomes the one thing that keeps you attached to your ego, to your sense of self, that you have to learn to let go of. This is so hard, particularly in organizational settings. Because you get these people that rise to leadership positions by just constantly crushing it, by making things happen. They even become known in the organization as someone that can make things happen. Well, if you're an N of one, that works. If you're leading a team of 10, that works. If you're leading a team of 1,000, that makes you a micromanager that's going to burn out

• 48:38Speaker 01

  because it's impossible to make things happen across 1,000 people. So, it's true both in like an individual context, when we need to learn to just let go, to peak, but it's also true when you're in an organizational context, where you get better and better and better using this one quality, and then eventually you have to let, let things happen on their own. The metaphor that I use in the book that I find really powerful is from the mid-century psychoanalyst D.W. Winnicott, who talked a lot about the good enough parent. And what Winnicott said is that the helicopter parent that is constantly intruding on their kids and doing things for their kids, the kid does not end up well. The negligent parent, the parent that checks out, that kid does not end up well.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  The best way to parent is to create a space for your kid to unfold, and when your kid goes off the path, to gently nudge them back on. And while I absolutely love that as a style of parenting, I also think it's a wonderful way to think about how we relate to ourselves in the big projects in our lives. So, how can we be good enough to ourselves? How can you be a good enough leader, a good enough writer, a good enough podcast host? Which doesn't mean every little thing you need to make perfect and you need to fix right away. It doesn't mean that you check out. It means that you're creating the space for the process to unfold, and when things go awry, you lean in really hard, but you also don't micromanage when things are going normally.

• 50:05Hala Taha?

  Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's such good advice.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I love that word, too, "good enough." It just like the ring of it, because I think there's so much perfectionism that, especially us, our generation, millennials, suffer from. It must just be something in how we were like all raised by our parents. But there's such a big gap between like being bad, which is what so many people fear, and being good enough. And when you can drop the weight of having to be perfect and having to make everything happen and just let yourself be good enough, not only do you feel better, but you end up performing better. Because all these principles interrelate, right? Good enough over and over and over again, that's consistency. And when you're consistent, you're focused on the path. So you're not caught up in heroic individualism. And when you're focused on the path, you can play the long game.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  And when you play the long game, you can win. So it's like all these things that we're told are gonna get us there, not only don't get us there, but they make us miserable.

• 51:01Hala Taha?

  Yeah, this is really resonating with me. What I keep thinking about is me growing my company. You know, I have 70 people all around the world that work for my marketing agency now. And when I first started, it was a team of 10, and I could get away with still being this like, let's make it happen, micromanaging, making sure everything's working, even when other people were working with me. Now that we're 70 people big, when I do that, I look like a jerk. Like, you know what I mean? I look like a boss who can't let go, or like to your point. So it's also like so good for managers to think about this and how they lead people. It's super hard.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Because I wanna make it explicit. Like, what made you so successful, what allowed your team to grow, was your ability to make things happen. So it's like this thing that is your superpower suddenly becomes like your weakness. That's what's so hard about it. And it's really hard to let go of those traits that help us. And I think that's just like a metaphor for life more broadly, is that the more and more I do this kind of work and I write and think about these topics, the more that I think wisdom is like non-dual thinking, which means being able to say that this thing has worked really well, and now it doesn't work anymore. Or this thing works really well in this context and not in this context. Because I think like real wisdom is using things until they work

• 52:21Speaker 01

  and then being able to let go when they stop working. And that is so hard.

• 52:26Hala Taha?

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• 53:11Hala Taha?

  that give entrepreneurs more leverage. HeyGen is definitely one of those tools. Thirty million people already use it, from solo founders to 85% of the Fortune 100. Your first three videos are free at heygen.com/profitting. That's H-E-Y-G-E-N dot com slash P-R-O-F-I-T-I-N-G. Heygen.com/profitting.

• 53:38Hala Taha?

  What's up, Yap gang? I recently had Gary Vee on the podcast, and he told me something that really stuck with me. If you've got sales DNA, you've got to be paying attention to live selling because it's one of the biggest opportunities right now online. And that really got me curious, so I checked out an app that he told me about called Whatnot. I jumped into a live show and I instantly got it. The seller was showing products in real time, answering questions in the chat, and building a real relationship with the buyers. It didn't feel like boring shopping. It felt like a community. Whatnot is the largest live shopping marketplace in the country. And for entrepreneurs, the results are really hard to ignore. Sellers on Whatnot can sell up to 10 times more than traditional marketplaces. And the number of sellers making over a million dollars a year on the platform has doubled.

• 54:22Hala Taha?

  So if you've got products to sell and you're looking for a new way to reach customers, search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store. Download it and you can start selling right away. That's Whatnot in the App Store.

• 54:37Hala Taha?

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• 55:22Hala Taha?

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• 56:07Hala Taha?

  and how that can really help you be grounded. Can you tell us about that?

• 56:11Speaker 01

  So as I mentioned earlier, what ended up happening is I just felt all this cognitive dissonance between what the sociologist Irvin Goffman would say, my front-stage self or the self that the world sees me as, and my backstage self, which is who I actually am. And having that wide chasm just made me feel like

• 56:31Speaker 01

  So the first and number one reason I wrote that article was to close that gap. And then I think that once that happened, I realized that, A, as I mentioned earlier, so many other people are going through things and every human's going through something. Maybe it's not mental illness, maybe it's physical illness. Maybe it's not physical illness, it's relationship problems. Maybe it's not relationship problems, it's feeling of loneliness because I'm still single and the world tells me I shouldn't be, and on and on and on. And so everyone has their [BLEEP]. And we all walk around with armor, hiding our [BLEEP]. But the minute that someone takes down that armor and shares their [BLEEP], everyone else is like, "Oh, my gosh, you have [BLEEP] too. So do I, we can really connect." And, um, man, that is so true.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  And that experience taught me that. And then, in addition to connecting with other people, and Brene Brown, the researcher from Houston, who really made vulnerability like a cultural thing, has done such a beautiful job of writing about this benefit of vulnerability, connecting with other people. Something that I explore in the book that is perhaps a little bit different is it also helps you connect with yourself, and it helps you have more genuine confidence in yourself. Because if you're hiding something from yourself, you might intellectually know, but your subconscious, it can discern bullshit from truth. So if you're pushing this part of yourself away, you can't ever really be confident because you know that you're hiding something.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Where if you can get to know all of yourself, including your fears and your doubts, then you can be really confident. So the example that so many ancient wisdom traditions talk about is what I would argue is the most universal human vulnerability, and that is death. And we often go through life just pushing death aside, not thinking about death. And in a way, doing that, it puts up this wall to something that is going to happen to all of us, and if we can just learn to name our fear and to be with it for a little, and perhaps in the company of a friend, or therapist, or spiritual advisor, or counselor, then- The edge gets taken off.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  And we can relate to it a little bit differently, which allows us to have more confidence and live more fully. So I think that that's what I really learned, you know, back to that three-legged stool. The spiritual traditions don't mess around, right? Like, they're not talking about vulnerability in your workplace. They're like, "We're all gonna die, let's talk about it." So I think we can learn a lot from those extremes, and then you can also lift them to the normal fishers in daily lives that bother us.

• 59:05Hala Taha?

  Yeah, and I've never heard that perspective before, like, sharing what your weaknesses are, what your failures are, in order to be more confident. Because, like you said, you carry all that in your head, and when you release it, it's out of there, and you can just focus, knowing that you're not hiding anything from the world. And like you said, it really does help people connect emotionally. For a living, I help people build personal brands. And that's the number one thing that goes viral, is sharing the things that you go through, that other people could connect with.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  And I think something else that's really interesting here, and you will probably know better than me from your marketing agency, but it seems that there's a difference between performative vulnerability and the real thing. So performative vulnerability is like crafting some Instagram post or tweet storm, because you read my book or Brene Brown's work, and you think that being vulnerable is good for you, so now I'm gonna be vulnerable so more people follow me. A, that generally feels pretty gross, and B, it generally doesn't work. Versus actual vulnerability, which is like, "This is scary, I might even feel ashamed

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  to share this, and I'm gonna say [bleep] and do it anyways." And that's the stuff that makes you feel good, not gross, and that's the stuff that goes nuts. Whenever someone talks to me about the internet, and like, "Oh, you know, you told me to be vulnerable, like, I wanna be vulnerable to connect with people," I'm like, "No, no, no, like, you're trying to use it as an asset. It'll come on its own. You know when to be vulnerable? Like, when you don't wanna share something, that's the thing that then you should share."

• 1:00:44Hala Taha?

  There's this concept you talk about called emotional flexibility. Can you help us understand what that is?

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  It's in simple terms, it's the ability to to hold two competing, strong emotions at once. So joy and despair, life and death, anger and love. And it's an extremely counterintuitive thing, but the more that we can embrace the full catastrophe of all these emotions, the more free we become because we don't resist the bad. And I love, this is the shit that I learned in my OCD therapy, because if you try to resist something, it just gets stronger. Whereas if you can say like, oh, there's sadness. Sadness is here. Sadness hurts. It's okay to be sad. Then it takes the edge off the sadness. And when you experience happiness, you're not scared to be happy. You can fully experience happiness.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  So it's this ability to be flexible in, within the course of a year, a week, a day, even within the course of an hour, to be able to have a wave of sadness, let it course through you, feel it, and then be really happy. There's this story that I came across, I didn't make it into the book when researching, about the Dalai Lama. And just, I think that this exemplifies emotional flexibility, is genocide came up in a conversation with him, and he just started weeping, just weeping, like crying full-force tears of sadness and sorrow. And then they were brought cookies by his attendant, and he took a bite of a chocolate

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  chip cookie, and the biggest smile came on his face. And within the course of a couple of seconds, so being able to hold it all, like the despair and the sorrow of genocide, and the joy of a freshly baked cookie, and just to create enough space for all that, that is another capacity of wisdom. I'm not there yet. I intellectually know enough about it to write about it. So much of my own practice of groundedness is this notion of emotional flexibility, of being able to hold everything at once, so that I don't get pushed and pulled around by it.

• 1:02:56Hala Taha?

  Super, super interesting, all things that I feel like we haven't really talked much on this podcast. So let's move on to your next principle, which is having a sense of deep community. How does community keep us grounded?

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  It's hard to go at it alone, you know? It's hard to stay on the path. It's hard to have fun. It's hard to be consistent. It's hard to accept where you are. It's hard to be present. It's hard to be vulnerable. So let's make it easier and more fun. And how do you do it? You find people that get it, that are walking a similar path as you. And you say, hey, let's do this together. So before I get into any of the science, I like to say it like that. Like, it's just more fun. And on our deathbed, no one remembers that they had 100 million podcast downloads or that they won a gold medal. What they remember are the guests that they had on the show, the training partners, the coaches. It's all about the relationships. And this gets back to this broader theme of heroic individualism. Like, on what time horizon are you looking?

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Because the most optimal, efficient thing to do in the moment is very rarely community. I gotta call someone. I gotta meet them. It's COVID times. I gotta think about where we're gonna meet, who's gonna wear a mask, this, that, and the other. It's terribly inefficient. But if you don't make time for that, then come one year, two years, three years, you might find yourself lonely. So if, like, our, our culture of efficiency and productivity so often crowds out deep community. Whereas when you're playing the long game, not only doesn't it make it more fun, but it also supports grounded striving. And I think it's important. There are two ways to build deep community. So one is actual, physical, in-person connection. The other is a sense of belonging.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  And that can be to a spiritual tradition, to a religion, to a lineage of intellectual thinkers, to a group of other podcast hosts that you kind of like have a mastermind group and you're all helping trying to share a similar message. And deep community is the combination of both those things. So according to the literature, it's not enough just to have people that you see in person, and it's not enough just to feel like you're a part of something larger. Both of those things put together, that's what supports mental health and sustainable excellence.

• 1:05:07Hala Taha?

  Totally. I think community is so important. It's been so important on my journey. And especially as an entrepreneur, we have a lot of entrepreneurs that are tuning in. And a lot of you entrepreneurs out there think that you've got to do it all on your own. And that like, everything's just on your shoulders. When you start to have a community and you can bounce ideas, it's to your point, you don't have to go at it alone. And I think that's so important.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  So I'd be curious, because you've built your company really fast and you're quote unquote, "successful." How do you balance this tension between pushing, pushing for work and optimizing today versus carving out time and space to cultivate relationships?

• 1:05:45Hala Taha?

  Oh, it's, I'm failing miserably. I'm failing miserably. I've lost, like, in the last three years, I've lost so many friends and I've, you know, it's hard. Like, I'm trying to carve out the time to keep my relationships strong. I really only have time for family because sometimes I'm working 18-hour days. And that's why I kind of called that out to entrepreneurs, because it is really tough. And for me, the relationships I have cultivated have been other podcasters and like, even like, my clients and like, my team members and my business partners, because I've created this community around the people that are doing the same types of stuff that I'm doing, so that I'm not distracted with my goals

• 1:06:26Hala Taha?

  and still accomplishing my goals with people who also love podcasting and things like that. So I actually created a mastermind of podcasters with 70 podcasters, and I'm the one who started it. And that's one of my secrets to building communities, to actually be the glue who creates that community. And I'm very good at that, but not everybody has that like, natural skill to like, get a group together. So I definitely encourage everybody out there to join a group with people with similar interests or start one if you're, if you're that type of person.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, love it. You're alluding to a really, um, an important point here, which is that if you're at a period or a season of your life where you're going all in on something, and building a business is a great example, parenting an infant is another good example, training for a big athletic accomplishment is another good example, your community can be a part of that endeavor. Just don't go at it alone. So it's okay for a season of your life to perhaps leave behind other sources of community outside of your goal. But when you go towards that goal, have community within that goal. So don't train alone for your Olympic medal. Train with a group. Don't just do a solo podcast.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Team up with someone else. Create a mastermind group. Don't just view your staff as people that you work with. View them as friends, particularly if you also want them to be all in. And then, "Oh, you're not gonna like this advice, but like, my advice to you would be do everything that you can to carve out, even if it's just like two hours a week, for non-work-related community." And the reason I say that is because, God forbid, something happens and you have a huge failure in work. It all goes to [BLEEP]. I don't think this is gonna happen because you're great, but let's just imagine that. It's so helpful to have another part of your identity that you can lean on when that happens. I see this all the time with the Olympians that I've worked with, is they're so singularly

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  focused on the medal, and then after the Olympics, it's just empty, because their entire identity was this one thing. So, I counsel entrepreneurs, I counsel elite athletes, it's okay to go all in. Part of what makes life meaningful is intensity in building something and giving something your all. Just protect a couple percentage points of yourself, of your identity, outside of that thing. It's really hard and really important.

• 1:08:48Hala Taha?

  It is really important. I totally agree. I'm on the same page. Speaking of Olympians, let's talk about your last principle, move your body.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Don't have to be an Olympian to move your body, thankfully. This was an interesting back and forth with my publisher, because the first five principles are like these broad, ambiguous, but also really aspirational, "we get to create our own definition" principles. And then it's like, you're telling people to exercise? But the reason that I felt really strongly about this is that, back to that three-legged stool, movement comes up in all the recent academic inquiry on mental health and groundedness. When you actually talk to people that are grounded... Whether they have always been that way, or whether they've experienced heroic individualism and worked their way out of it, or depression or anxiety, what have you,

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  some sort of physical activity is generally a part of their process. Then I got looking to the ancient wisdom traditions, and particularly in the West, so Stoicism in the Greeks, they didn't separate mind and body. School was the gymnasium and intellect. And it always fascinates me because you look back thousands of years and then today, there's all this research that shows that when we're regularly in movement practice, we're more creative. We have better emotional control. We remember more. There's studies of kids that show that when they vigorously exercise, they score better on tests. So I think that we separate the mind and body at our own peril. And it's actually in the book I write, it's not mind or body. It's not mind and body. It's a mind-body system.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  So if we want to take care of our mind, our psychology, we have to take care of our body, our physiology. And movement does not need to be CrossFit. It doesn't need to be powerlifting. It doesn't need to be triathlon. It can be as simple as a brisk walk. Just something that elevates your heart rate a little bit and puts you in your body is so, so impactful for your whole being.

• 1:10:48Hala Taha?

  Totally. I completely agree. And I think this is especially important in COVID-19. I mean, I look at myself. I work from home. A lot of us are working from home. Some of us are not leaving our apartments like all week. We're just like stationary. A lot of us are scared to go to the gym and like we used to. I'm one of those people. So you've got to do your little home workouts. Like you said, go outside, take a walk, get some fresh air. I bounce on a little trampoline and that really helps me. So I couldn't agree more. We are wrapping up, running out of time. So the one thing I want to ask you that kind of wraps this up nicely is your analogy for redwood trees. I think this really summarizes everything very nicely.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  So I was at this beautiful redwood park one day and it was super windy. And you look up and the overstory of the trees is blowing in the wind. But you look down and they're held to the ground and they're solid. And these trees are 100, 200, even the old growth redwoods, 300 feet tall. And what's holding them to the ground are roots. And you don't see those roots. But if those roots aren't nourished and watered, then the tree's going to fall over in rough weather. And the principles of groundedness are really like those roots. These aren't things that you necessarily see when you look at someone.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  But if you internally take care of patience, acceptance, presence, vulnerability, community, movement, it helps you stand strong throughout all that weather. The second thing that's so beautiful about redwood trees is their roots only run six to 12 feet deep. So the tree, 300 feet high, the root structure, quite shallow. And I'm like, I literally am like asking the park ranger, I'm like, well, wait a minute, how do the trees hold to the ground? And she said, it's because the roots intertwine with the roots of all the other trees in the park. So there are a system of roots that are all holding each other up throughout all kinds of weather. And man, if that's not beautiful, and that's not what we ought to strive for, is like

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  taking care of our own root system, but also doing it with others so that we can help hold each other up, then I don't know what's the point of any of it. So that really became the overarching metaphor for the book and for how I try to live my life.

• 1:13:08Hala Taha?

  I love that. That is super beautiful. So last couple of questions I ask on Young and Profiting Podcast. What is one actionable thing we can do today to be more young and profiting tomorrow?

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  I think define profiting. So what does it mean for you to be profiting? What are those values? Is it a certain amount of money? Is it a certain amount of autonomy? Is it living in a certain geography? Is it starting a family? Is it staying single and curious so that you can explore? The point is, there's not a right or wrong. What's wrong is not taking the time to regularly step back and be able to define what profiting means for you. Because how you define that will then dictate the actions that follow.

• 1:13:54Hala Taha?

  And what is your secret to profiting in life?

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  It's going to be the answer to that forward question. So knowing my values and what it means to live in alignment with them. And I find that when I'm not living in alignment with those values, I feel dis-ease. And when I am, I feel wonderful.

• 1:14:12Hala Taha?

  Amazing. Well, thank you so much. This is such a great conversation. Appreciate your time.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this.