One Man's War: Fighting Through Italy (Part 4)

What happened to Sam to get sent home from Italy? When did Sam's war end? How did Sam feel when he went home and saw his family? Join Jim and Al for part 4 of a new series focussing on one man's war, as they follow the exploits of Sam Bradshaw in 6th Royal Tank Regiment in North Africa and Italy. Start your free trial at ⁠patreon.com/wehaveways⁠ and unlock exclusive content and more. Enjoy livestreams, early access, ad-free listening, bonus episodes, and a weekly newsletter packed with book deals and behind-the-scenes insights. Get your WHW Merch here! A Goalhanger Production Produced by James Regan Editor: Charlie Rodwell Assistant Producer: Alfie Norris Exec Producer: Tony Pastor Social: @WeHaveWaysPod Social Producer: Harry Balden Email: [email protected] Membership Club: patreon.com/wehaveways Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:02Speaker 00

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• 1:57Speaker 00

  I came home for the first time in November 44. This was the worst thing I remember about the war because no one had conditioned me. It never occurred to me. I thought I was intelligent. I wasn't. I was very naive, actually. Never realized that time doesn't stand still. My sister had died during the war. She'd been down in the shelters every night and she got pneumonia and died and she left two children. I knew my mother would be at my sister's house looking after her children. She didn't know I was coming home and I didn't want to just walk in. I thought if I go to my sister's house, she may or may not be there. I went to my sister's house. When I went away to war, my niece was a little girl of about 12 and I was met by a lovely young lady of about 18. I thought, who's this? She said, don't you know me?

• 2:38Speaker 00

  I said, no. She said, I'm your niece. Then my mother came and that's when it really hit me because my mother had had lovely brown wavy hair and when I saw she had silver gray hair, my immediate thought was, it isn't me that suffered in the war, not really. But my mother suffered. She's born the pain. She's aged so much. I had to go through this process. There was no one I knew. They were all different people. I had a month's leave and if I went out at night, I didn't know anybody. All the people I knew had disappeared, gone. I went to the pub. They were only open for about an hour because there was no beer. There was no one I knew, so I didn't feel I belonged. I was like a foreigner. It was terrible and awful experience. Then I met a fellow who was in some regiment. He never

• 3:22Speaker 00

  went abroad. He was lucky, stayed in England, helped me a bit. He was about the same age as me. It took a long time. I thought, why didn't someone tell me? I don't know if other people had the same experience, but I felt cheated somehow, like I'd lost my youth and everyone had grown old. I then realized that I was older. I didn't realize. I felt I was only about 19. It was like I'd been living in a dream, an imaginary world, and now I was coming back to reality. And those are the words of Sam Bradshaw. Welcome to We Have Ways of Making You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland and our fourth and final part of the story of one man's war, where what we've done is we've, yeah, I mean, we've done in previous episodes,

• 4:05Speaker 00

  we've done some big arrows on maps to tell you what's going on, but we've really been trying to look at Sam's experiences as a fighting man in the Royal Tank Regiment, six RTR in the desert, and how he feels about his experiences as well as the absolutely harrowing first combat proper that he had, where he lost in an ambulance with a major who'd lost his arm and another guy bleeding out of him, extraordinary harrowing stuff. So, I mean, we're not wrapping up with Sam here.

• 4:35Speaker 06

  We're throwing forward a little bit and we'll come back to his homecoming and what he does about it. But Jesus, that's devastating, isn't it?

• 4:41Speaker 00

  It's so thought provoking.

• 4:42Speaker 06

  Just hearing you read that out again, it's all sort of coming back to me, that conversation I have with him. And it's one of the things, I was so determined to make sure that we got that voice in this series because I, you know, I interviewed him 25 years ago, but I remember that so well.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 06

  About his mum going grey and not belonging and no one to talk to and no one preparing him for it.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:04Speaker 06

  But, but hearing it again, I mean, Jesus, it's a bit that no one ever thinks about, isn't it?

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Well, it is, isn't it? And the thing is, is because for the Patreons, I've just been doing my grandfather's letters home from France in Northwest Europe. And I think about my grandmother receiving these letters and then he, you know, he didn't come back. You know, it's not just the guys going off in car key in the slate grey or the navy blue, is it? It's the people at home having to carry it and bear it, who are facing loss. And if his sister dies is awful, isn't it? I mean, as a thing to, a thing to come home to, absolutely devastating. Aside from all his mates who've bought it, his family have paid the price.

• 5:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's this idea that you're coming back from a dream and you're coming back to reality, but the reality is so disappointing. It's just, it's just awful. It's just, it's just that despair that he's describing, you know, whatever it was, you know, when I met him, he was 80.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  It's so raw still, isn't it? Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. It's just amazing. Anyway, we should start not by, by the sort of chronological details of what he, what he did in, we're still in North Africa, by the way. We got him back to the Alamein Line, hadn't we? Got him through the first battle of Alamein in our last episode. But, but, but I thought it's interesting, some of the, some of the kind of broader stuff he talked about was really interesting. And this was when blokes were writing letters to the Manchester Evening News and sending lonely heart letters. And he wasn't really much interested. It was, go on, it's great love, you know, you get letters back and it's brilliant. You've got someone to write to and it's sort of, you know, something to do.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  And the blokes are doing this and he says, eventually they were getting some cracking girls and they put me in for it, though I didn't know. I must have drawn the shorts draw because the girl I got, honest to God, of all these beautiful girls, this one.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  I mean, honesty.

• 6:52Speaker 06

  But he, but he does write to her. So he writes to her saying, you know, he's a lonely soldier, doesn't commit himself in any way. He's very, very, very kind of careful about that. But, but, you know, how nice it is to communicate with someone, you know, where we are in the desert, blah, blah, blah, you know, a long way from home and, and would love to hear her news and what she's up to, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, he gets, he gets a letter saying she's had a child, went out on the night, had too much to drink, next thing she knows, et cetera, et cetera.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  Incredible. His phlegmatic reaction to this, I think is very interesting, isn't it? I thought, I'm not taking that on. So I wrote and told her I wasn't prepared to continue the relationship because I wasn't prepared to take on a ready-made family. It was cruel really, but you're very selfish in war. You only think of yourself, survival. You do sacrifice for your friends. That's a different thing. I love Jim, that you were able to get, obviously he wanted to talk about this. Obviously he was prepared to talk about this and lay his feelings open from after all this time. But, I mean, you really got him to, you got, he sang like a canary, James. It's very impressive.

• 7:52Speaker 06

  I think I was really, honestly, I think I was incredibly lucky that I was doing it when I was doing it because you know what I'm like, you know, if I get into something, I get into it. So, so, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I don't hide this stuff, you know,

• 8:07Speaker 06

  let everyone know how excited I am about things. You know, there I was, you know, I was like 32 or something, you know, so I was really young still. And I was just, just tell me everything. And because I didn't, I wasn't coming at it from a military history perspective. I was very much coming at it from a kind of, this is human drama about which I know very little and I'm on a massively steep learning curve and you literally can't tell me enough. I, I think he was flattered that someone of my age was interested in this. And what I tend to do, my, my interview technique was always to just start at the very beginning, you know, where did you grow up? What was it like? You know, family, kids, you know, larking around? What were your schoolmates like? What sort of trouble did you get up to? All this kind of stuff. Kind of uses them in. You know, I worked this out

• 8:50Speaker 06

  really early on. You know, he knew that I'd driven up from Southern England to Wigan to hear him talk. And for these guys also, it's incredibly cathartic because I'm a young bloke. I look at that stage vaguely like some of the old men that, the old boys that they served with back in the day. So there's that kind of weird kind of, ah, yeah, this guy slightly reminds me of how I was once kind of thing, I think, going on.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Youth, Jim, youth.

• 9:17Speaker 06

  Yes. And I think they found, quite often found it very difficult to talk to their own family because they don't want their own family thinking of them in this way. And this is cathartic. I'm a neutral party. And so they can just unburden themselves. And they're flattered that I want to write about them in a book, of course. Otherwise everyone would have said yes. You know, so it's not, you know, it's not, it's not great, any great, great human insight on my part. It's just embroidered enthusiasm and fascination to be listening to people like him talking about this so candidly.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  It worked.

• 9:46Speaker 06

  Well, it worked, yeah. Even with the Jerry's.

• 9:51Speaker 06

  Even with Hi Oh Herman.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  God, of all people. One of the interesting things about this though, about this, this stuff about how important writing and letters are and contact, that it's, it's, it's absolutely central to their sort of part of their emotional, keeping themselves together, or certainly in his case, keeping himself together emotionally, how important the mail was back then. And, you know, he said to you, what a lot of people don't realise is just how long some of us spent out there. It was years. Writing and receiving letters keeps you in touch with home. And we, obviously we touched on what, what that then leads to when he gets home. But I mean, people aren't doing tours, are they? You're not going to North Africa for a tour. You're there.

• 10:31Speaker 06

  For six months, the six months of break halfway through, quickly flown home, come back again. No. Decompression in Cyprus. No, nothing like that.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Nothing like that. No, no, there's no, there's no drinking in pubs two days after you're in a fob in Kandahar.

• 10:44Speaker 06

  He was at home for, for four years, 10 months.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Four years, 10 months.

• 10:48Speaker 06

  It's unbelievable.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  Nearly five years.

• 10:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, nearly.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  But, but anyway, um, I, I, you know, the, the thing is that he was young and single, so it was kind of easy for him. And he made this point, and I've never, ever forgotten this story. This is the story that, that really, at the time, really upset me. And, and he said that he always noticed that most of the blokes in the regiment and in his company in B Squadron, rather, those with wives or girlfriends, at some point, they invariably received a Dear John, a Dear John letter. And he said of it, he read out parts of them. She had a peculiar name, Bryn, but we all felt we were a part of his life and that she was somehow our girl too.

• 11:28Speaker 06

  There's this guy in the, in, in his, in his troop called Ronnie Dowey. And everyone loves Ronnie. Ronnie's just like a really good bloke and he's just totally solid, totally dependable, kind of sort morally upright, looks after them all. And he has a fiance back home and she writes Ronnie letters.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  And this can't be uncommon as well. He says, he would read out parts of them. She had a peculiar name, Byrne, and we all felt we were a part of his life and that she somehow was our girl too.

• 11:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. So the, the letters, they just make them feel connected to this sort of rather hazy, distant world of home. And it becomes like a soap opera, you know, because it's like tuning into Corey every week. You know, you're waiting for the letter. What, what's going to happen? What's, what, you know, because, because there's all these little cliffhangers in the letters, you know, she's going to, she's crossed with someone and she's going to go and give it to, give it to this bloke. And, you know, and they're all waiting to find out what, what the de numont is of this, this confrontation and all the rest of it. Whenever Byrne wrote, they'd all kind of go, well, what's she got to say then? Come on.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 06

  What, what's, what's the news? And Dowey would fill them in.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Dowey would say, oh, she's had her hair changed. And we'd say, I'm not sure about that. And you'd realise how important little things are. So it's the gossip substitute, basically, isn't it? It's, it's because there's nothing to gossip about. Um, and he says, we were hoping and praying that their relationship would survive and it did. We used to say, you lucky bloke.

• 12:50Speaker 06

  Yes. So anyway, so then one day Sam hears from the boys that Ronnie's received bad news from Bryn. And, and that night Sam arranges to do Prowler Guard with, with Ronnie. Ronnie tells him everything. He goes, I've had a letter from Bryn and she's finished with me.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Well, perhaps she's just a bit fed up. They're going through what we're going through, you know, give it a while, she'll come round.

• 13:10Speaker 06

  No, she means it. And now I've got nothing to live for. And, and Ronnie starts twisting the ring he'd given her on his finger. I mean, you know, it's just, oh dear. Sam says to him.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Don't be stupid, Dowey. You're only a kid. You've got the rest of your life. Give it some time. It's just a phase. Don't give up. All this talk of ending it, you forget about that. You're a good tank driver and you've got a crew who depend on you.

• 13:34Speaker 06

  Sam then asks for Ronnie's word that he won't do anything stupid. And Ronnie assures him he won't. But the very next day, this is part of the crusader battle. This is the day before Sam gets wounded is himself. Um, Ronnie's missing and his radio operator has survived. And Sam asks him what's happened. And he goes, we were hit and there was a terrible smell of petrol. And the man tells him, the tank commander told us all to bail out, but Dowey stayed on and drove straight at the German guns.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Sam recalled, that was a terrible thing. And who knows, a few days later, another letter might have arrived telling him it was all a mistake. Poor Ronnie, he was such a nice lad. It's heartbreaking, Jim.

• 14:15Speaker 06

  Devastating. You know, life in the desert is, is very tough. I mean, people have talked about it a lot, very hot during day, very cold during night, could be really cold in winter, full stop actually. Um, lots of inconveniences. It's very dry. It's very arid, mosquitoes, um, uh, near the coast, um, little bugs, um, scorpions, a big problem. And of course the flies, the flies are absolutely dreadful.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  He's also got a kind of very typical young man's attitude to death. He's seen plenty of it, but he also thinks it's not going to be him. Confidence, of course, is massively shaken by his experience at Sidi Rezeg.

• 14:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  It's a cumulative. And he does, he did talk about the sort of courage bank. Uh, and he, and he said that, that after they'd been out in Africa about two years, he was approached by Dewey Baker. Do you remember we talked about Dewey Baker earlier on, the sort of super guy that everyone looked up to, the brilliant gunner, the super sportsman? He was still, and he's still part of the regiment. Well, but on the subject of Dewey Baker's nickname, so I was doing some reading today and I came across two written nicknames that I think are, um, actually, I, I thought, okay, finally someone's using some imagination here. Cause Dewey Baker, let, let's be honest now lads, you haven't really stretched out to find that nickname. One of them was a guy called Bob Soda Fountain. That was his nickname was Soda. And that's funnier than Dewey Baker, right?

• 15:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  The other was a colonel in the Australian Army, whose nickname was February, because he was fond of putting blokes on a 28 day charge.

• 15:46Speaker 06

  Toast is good.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Burn and Brown, toast, that's really good. But I just think to actually have a nickname that involved like, not just calling someone chalky white or whatever, but February. And that, that's because he was tough and he, and he used 28 day charges a lot to put people on 28 day charges.

• 16:02Speaker 06

  Very strong.

• 16:03Speaker 00

  I love it, right?

• 16:04Speaker 06

  My favourite of all time though is still is, is, um, the guy I was at school with. He was called Howard Phyllis and everyone just called him Sif. That was funny.

• 16:13Speaker 06

  So, so Dewey asked for a word of confidence.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  He said, I've had it. I can't take it anymore. I'm going to pieces. I realised that a lot of the young soldiers look up to me and other people look up to me because I've set an example. And I'm frightened to disgrace myself and set a bad example. I told him to go back and see the MO and talk to him and explain to him that he'd reached the end. He was very calm and two days later he said to me, I feel like a coward. I feel ashamed. I said, no, you're a brave man. Go back and be honest. You can't be more than honest.

• 16:44Speaker 06

  So Dewey does go and see the MO, who gives him very short shrift and warns him he won't hesitate to court martial him if he doesn't buck up.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. And Sam says, I thought, God, that's a shame. But he carried on. No one else ever knew. And I carried on supporting him and he made it.

• 17:00Speaker 06

  Yeah. So good. Cause I spent, everyone's expecting Dewey, um, Dewey to come a cropper, but he doesn't.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  He gets a blighty wound, doesn't he? Yeah. And goes home. But I mean, the people are talking, are talking to each other about this. The guys, again, they were getting a glance into, a glimpse into a thing that doesn't very often come up, does it? You know, um, uh, uh, in that way.

• 17:20Speaker 06

  These guys are growing up, aren't they? That's the bottom line.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  Well, they're growing up, but under, under, under extremes. They're not growing up like, you know, on scooters and vaping. They're growing up, um, under extreme, extreme pressure, aren't they? So we left him at first, um, Alamein in terms of the combat. That, that's where we, um, uh, uh, left six RTR, wasn't it?

• 17:40Speaker 06

  They're very badly depleted by this point. Um, this is September, 1942. So it's before the Second Battle of Alamein. I think it's really interesting, you know, contrast with German armoured regiments who expected to just keep fighting and fighting and fighting. I mean, you know, we remember we were talking about the whole of, I think it was at 16 Panzer Division after Smolensk having 12 left or something, still got to keep going. That doesn't happen in the British Army and quite right too. Now, and around this time, B Squadron is, is sent to Eighth Army Tactical Headquarters at Burgel Arab. And the task is to protect the army commander and his staff, who of course is now Monty.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. So they've gone back to look after GHQ essentially.

• 18:17Speaker 06

  Sam's a bit jaded by this point.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. He says, we were supposed to be very proud about this, but to be honest, it didn't seem that great in honour. All right. No pleasing some people, is there?

• 18:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. I know. And I said to him, I remember saying to him, what did you think of Monty? And he went, oh, not a huge amount, to be perfectly honest.

• 18:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Oh, well.

• 18:37Speaker 06

  Anyway, one of the squadron, Jock Fraser is given the job of driving Monty around whenever he needs a tank. And it's Jock, according to Sam, who suggests that Monty wear a tank beret instead of the Aussie's broad brim hat. And the idea sticks. What? You know, that's a jolly good idea. I think I will do that.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  I will do that. Thank you, Fraser. I will not be crediting you with that idea. That was my idea. Carry on. Very well done.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  And that's that, that'll be that Grant tank that was, um, that was in the Imperial War Museum foyer for all those years, the Monty tank.

• 19:11Speaker 06

  That'll be it.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  Within touching distance of that, Jim, that's very cool. After this stint protecting Monty, they're pulled out of the line, aren't they, B Squadron? They join back up with the rest of the regiment at, at Catterbar on the 17th of November. And he's been at war now for two years.

• 19:25Speaker 06

  Actually, he's been at war more than that because he goes, he goes over kind of early 1940, order of 1941, nearly three years, actually.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But sort of fighting for two, really. Um, and he says, eventually the message got through that things were falling apart. There are reserves, but there's always a limit. He isn't suffering in silence here, is he? He's, it, it's becoming clear that he's knackered.

• 19:48Speaker 06

  Well, they're all are, you know, and they're taking on new boys, but, but, you know, they've, they've been devastated. They've been devastated at Sidi Rezek. Then they're re-took, constituted and get back in the, in, in the saddle. Then they have the kind of disaster of Knightsbridge. Then they're in the first battle of Alamein. It's just, you, you can't keep going on at, at that pace. So, so they're out. And actually, he has quite a long stint out. He has, you know, over a year.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  Really? Oh, that's interesting.

• 20:12Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, because they're not sent to Tunisia. They're, they're slowly being re-equipped with new tanks, which are Shermans. Then they're posted to Iraq and to the Turkish border. And they're up there in case Turkey comes in on the German side. And because there's all these sort of constant little, you know, fractiousness about Iran and Iraq and all the rest of it.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:31Speaker 06

  You know, particularly Iran, where there's that kind of, they, they've had this relationship with Germany before the war. They also carry out a load of amphibious training, you know, should they be required for Sicily, Italy, whatever.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Right, or wherever.

• 20:41Speaker 06

  And it's here that he joins the reconnaissance unit. So they're, they're about to leave Baghdad for training in Palestine. They're sitting around having a meal when the RSM comes around and says, the Colonel wants volunteers for a new recce unit. And Sam knows that you should never volunteer, but on this occasion, he actually does because he recognizes that they are going to be going to Italy. And he remembers how useful the recce troops were in Eritrea, where it was quite jangly, actually.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 21:05Speaker 06

  And he thinks, oh, this is close country. This is, this is, this'll be quite good. And he knows he's good on the radio and he feels, feels he could sort of do with a change. He's sort of done with tanks. And frankly, who can blame him? Because they're mainly using armoured cars. So they start off training in, in Humbers and things, and Dingos and whatnot. And, and they have a special type of honey tank, which has got the turret taken off and has got a kind of gun shield in front of it.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  Recce, recce Stuart tank, which is, yeah, sort of defrocked, as it were, like a priest. In contrast to being in 21st Panz, SS Panz or whatever, you know, you are, they are training and re-equipped and resting out and taking a year off, rather than being plugged into the next disaster, which is the way the, the Wehrmacht do things. You, you know, this is a much more sort of considered process, isn't it? They're in Palestine for much the rest of 43, then in Egypt in early 44, and then they're shipped to Italy at the end of April in 1944, and get to Taranto on the 4th of May, 1944. So they're coming on the end of Operation Diadim. That's quite the break, isn't it? So one hopes his batteries are sufficiently recharged.

• 22:08Speaker 06

  Yes, it is a break. Um, um, talking of which.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Let's take one and we'll return, um, with Sam in Italy. Um, we'll see you in a second.

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• 23:45Speaker 00

  Welcome back to We Have Ways of Making You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Um, now, Jim, we, we said that, uh, that they've deployed to Taranto, to Italy, at the end of Operation Diadim. He's only 23 though, and we would do, you've, we've done this much storied thing, summary, and, and, and look, and it's Sam's feelings and how he feels his, you know, uh, maybe running out of puff at one point or courage. And, and yet he's only 23. Uh, it's, it's ridiculous, isn't it?

• 24:12Speaker 06

  It's absolutely insane. And when you think about his truculence, when he's, when he's put on a charge for losing his, his pistol, you can see why, whatever age he was, but when you realise it was only probably 21 at that point, fair enough, don't you think? I mean.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 24:25Speaker 06

  So, so, so reconnaissance troops have a really important role in, in, in Italy, where, where the terrain is a lot closer. And of course, by May 1944, Sam's a key member of this recce unit because he's extremely experienced, um, both as a trooper and a, and a radio man. Um, he finds when he gets to Italy, that they're immediately sent up to the, the Diadim front. So he's at the, you know, he passes through Cassino, in the wreckage of Cassino. He, he goes up on the Via Casalina on the way to Rome. And really, his first start sort of seeing action in the, in the war north of Rome, following the, the capture of Rome on the 4th of June. And he finds he feels absolutely no will, will to the Italians at all. None at all.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. He says, when you get close to the families, Italian mothers would come up to you and say, Inglési buono, my son was a prisoner in Africa. He's now in Bristol. Can you tell me how he is? We'd say, he's okay. And once or twice, they'd ask us to go to the POW camp when we got home to see if their son was okay. You'd say you'd try. That's very sweet of him and impossible. But I mean.

• 25:25Speaker 06

  They, they have this, this one thing, the other thing that they're, they're not prepared for as well, because when they've been in North Africa, they haven't had lots of people sort of all around them all the time. You know, it's been, Africa's been kind of quite sort of, you know, starved of, particularly in the Western Desert in Libya and Egypt, it's been starved of, of, um, of locals, really. But suddenly there's lots of Italians and they're all starving, as we know, you know, we've talked about this in earlier episodes and things. They're all told, don't feed the Italians, you know, your, your rations are for you. You need them, don't give them out. And he says, there's this one moment where this, this woman has got this baby and, and she's clearly starving and she's sort of, you know, coming out. So one of his mates jumps down and gives her some food. And then the whole column spontaneously stops and they feed this huge column of Italians.

• 26:08Speaker 06

  And the officers just go, no, quite right. He says, this, we should do more of this.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 26:12Speaker 06

  It's absolutely amazing. Anyway, they're, they're attached to, to, um, 4th Indian Division in 5th Corps, um, north of Rome. And they're now in, in a combination of Stewarts, of honeys, tanks and, and dingo armour cars. And Sam, by this point, is, is de facto leader in his troop. Well, in fact, the whole recce unit, because there, there's like 11 tanks on there, something like that. It's quite small. Uh, and until the new CO arrives, because immediately after the fall of the Rome, they're, they're, they're supporting the Gurkhas. And Sam likes the adjutant of the Gurkha battalion. He's called Lieutenant Robinson, but Sam calls him Robbo.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  His view of them is one that's like eternal. That you, um, you know, you talk to people in the army now, and they would say all of this.

• 26:55Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  Exactly. The word for word. The Gurkhas were very good blokes, very good officers. There was no class distinction with them. There was with our officers. I was brad with them and I was one of them. With our fellows, they'd sit one side of the tent and we'd sit the other, very much so. So, I mean, this sort of love affair with the Gurkhas is, is remains, doesn't it?

• 27:14Speaker 06

  As you say.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  So they're out in little, little troops of three Stewarts, um, uh, per troop, and then each troop with each squadron. He's running this show, isn't he? So he's, um, commanding three of these Stewarts, turretless Stewarts. Because the thing with the Stuart is the gun it's got isn't worth it.

• 27:32Speaker 06

  They've now got guns, these ones.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Ah, right.

• 27:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got, they've got rid of the Humber armour cars and they're now in, all in honeys.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Because it's interesting, isn't it though? Because, because you can see why you take the turret off, because it's got quite a high, high profile, the Stuart. And if what you're actually using it for is nosing about, having a look, high profile isn't particularly helpful, is it?

• 27:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, they just found that the armour cars weren't, weren't cutting it. They were, um, they, in Italy, that's probably a leftover from the, from the winter. And you say you needed a little bit more control that you get from tracks. So they just put them back in honeys. Yeah. So they're trained in armour cars and, and these cut down, these defrocked honeys.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Because they use those in Normandy a lot, don't they? The, the Stewarts without the, without the turret. You can see why, because the gun it's got isn't going to really help, is it? If you run into trouble, what's going to help is the reverse gears, I think.

• 28:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. And the fact that, yeah. And he did, he did say that these things could go pretty fast, you know, when particularly the defrocked ones. But anyway, so they, they reach Urbino, um, on the 26th of August. And, and, and Sam's thinking, brilliant, you know, get a heads down, get some food, get some provino, get a bit of food, bit of rest. You know, because as, as recce troops, they're always several hours ahead of the rest of the advance. That's the whole point. But he's given orders to press on regardless as soon as he arrives. Um, and so they continue on into the kind of sort of mountainous terrain around it. And as night falls, Sam finds a shallow cave to shelter in. And then a jeep pulls up and it's the new recce unit commander, Lieutenant McDonald. And Lieutenant McDonald

• 29:04Speaker 06

  actually is a bit more experienced than his rank suggests. Sam, though, has, you know, he's got a bucket load of experience and he's been running the show for quite a long time. So he's, he's got the point where he's not really willing to stand on ceremony, you know, he, he, he's not willing to stand on ceremony in any way whatsoever.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  So, so he says, you're the commander and we have to obey your orders, but you have to share the work. We can't afford to have passengers.

• 29:30Speaker 06

  That's okay with me. You tell me, I'll do it, says McDonald.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it? Um, but, um, you know, this is how Sam intends to start, but they start disagreeing straight away, basically. Um, Sam believes that there are, reckons there are German anti-tank guns positioned across the valley, but McDonald, Lieutenant McDonald, wants to push on as per his orders.

• 29:54Speaker 06

  And, and the point is, is that Sam's got sixth sense of this stuff now. You know, he, he's, he's learned that through.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Several woundings and, and all the rest of it. So McDonald then says, well, if you're afraid to go forward.

• 30:07Speaker 06

  Don't you say that to me. I've been in this war a long time. I'm trying to give you the benefit of my advice and experience. Yeah, we know how this is going to pan out, don't we?

• 30:15Speaker 00

  He ignores it, doesn't he? Gets into his steward and goes forward and a hundred yards further on, the tank is hit. One man escapes, but then his machine gun to his death. The rest, including McDonald, burn in the tank. And Sam thinks.

• 30:29Speaker 06

  I thought, Christ, they were my friends. I felt it was my fault. I should have stopped him. I should have belted him, knocked him out or something. Those fellows had trusted me and I felt terrible.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  But they push on as, as you do. Sam's sort of effectively de facto commander again. And they reach Monte Calvo and Sam and his recce unit are pulled into street fighting and getting out of their tanks and clearing houses with Tommy guns and hand grenades and stuff. I mean, you know, Jesus. And they're also battling with endless mines and booby traps that the Germans have planted, which is, you know, what they're famous for. And we haven't actually done anything on the war north of Rome, but we should do at some point. Cause it's a, it's a hell of a story. Anyway, they're then advancing through a little town called Tavoleto with the Gurkhas again, a few days later. And there's an incident where in a farmhouse just outside the town, Sam's driver is about to

• 31:18Speaker 00

  lie down on a carpet of straw when Sam immediately pulls him back. And it turns out there were 24 shoe mines buried underneath.

• 31:27Speaker 06

  Right. And Sam said, we would have both been killed just like that. I mean.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, they would. No, no doubt about that. And the close shaves continue. So, um, a, a, as we, as you've said, Jim, the recce tanks are well ahead of the rest of the regiment and they're moving up with the 4th 11th Sikhs, Sam acting as a liaison officer to the Indian infantry. And they pushed on through the town of Alditore and into a long valley with a shallow river running through it. Enemy positions on the far side. And Sam counts three haystacks. As he takes a look, he counts three haystacks in that direction. But the next morning, when they're coming up to the start line, he counts 11. Where have these eight haystacks appeared from overnight? He says, I thought, that's bloody strange. And when you're tired, that's when you begin to doubt and wonder whether you're imagining things. He insists on speaking to the, the Lieutenant Colonel of the Sikhs before the

• 32:15Speaker 00

  attack is launched. He says he thinks that the enemy had been massively reinforced overnight. So the Colonel postpones the attack on hearing this and sends patrols out to find out, to investigate. And Sam is sent to find a fording point across the river. So he goes on foot by himself. This is incredible. As he returns, he spots loads of German troops hiding in the trees on the Sikh side of the river. So he's in trouble now. Starts to run for his life. He gets to his tank and he yells at the crew to start it up and get ready to reverse. The infantry need to be warned. And as, as he's climbing onto the tank, fire starts to zimming, zing in from the enemy's side. And he feels this sting in his throat. And I went over the side of the tank and lay down and

• 32:58Speaker 00

  there's blood running all over the place. I thought, Christ, I've been shot in the throat. Even then, he's trying to calm down his wireless operator who's panicking. So Sam may have been hurt, but he's like, I've got to, I've got to take care of the others too. Finds a field dressing, uses it to stem the bleeding. He can barely, it doesn't really, he can barely talk. He still manages to get to the river, but fording point bearings, he sends them out, um, in, uh, uh, by code over the radio. He says, by then I was feeling bloody bad. I thought I was dying. And then once they've extricated themselves for this fix, Sam staggers out and collapses in a ditch by the side of the road. Two Sikh soldiers rush up, take it to a red, red cross post. He's given morphine and he's put in a red cross jeep and, and off he goes. And the driver though is an American volunteer.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  And as soon as they leave, the enemy get a bead on the ambulance, on the jeep. The shells zipping over and the, the, he's going, the driver was panicking, driving all over the road. And I was more worried about going over a sheer drop than I was about being hit by a shell. And Sam, despite the fact it's Sam who's been injured, there's this, you know, blood pouring out of his throat.

• 34:02Speaker 06

  Shot in the neck. Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  Shot in the neck. He has to calm the driver down. It's, it's him again that has to do the like, everything's going to be okay. Don't worry. Um, as they, as they're driving back towards a, a dressing station. It's incredible. They do find a dressing station in a school in a village and, and he's able to be treated.

• 34:21Speaker 06

  And he spends quite a long time in hospital again. And, and he's been shipped home and it's, and it's end of the year, 1944. Sort of, you know, November time, I think it is. Yeah. So he's, he's wounded, beginning of September. Back home in November.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  And he says, this is amazing. This is a guy who's very badly wounded, um, in November, uh, 1941 as part of crusader, you know, terrible leg injury where the, the shrapnel had to be cut out to the opposite side of his leg. But he says about going home, it was the worst thing about the war. No one had conditioned me about what to expect.

• 34:54Speaker 06

  And yeah, and then there's this terrible moment where, where, where there's, you know, not only the pub's empty, it, it, and, and being served watered down beer. He, he then leaves a pub and walks past his own school. Oh, this is awful.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  And he says, I sat down and I just broke down. It was terrible and I felt so ashamed. But I was mentally ill, bloody ill. I didn't tell anyone.

• 35:15Speaker 06

  So he, he stays on in the army and, and he volunteers for, for service in North West Europe. He joins a completely different unit, an armoured unit and gets sent out to North West Europe. And he's there up in, um, and he ends up to Bad Falingbostel, which is near Belson. And he is amongst those being part of the liberation, uh, you know, in April, 1945. After the war, he gets finally, he finally gets commissioned and he retires in the army, stays in the army, retires as a major, later becomes chairman of the Eighth Army Veterans Association.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 35:48Speaker 06

  Marries and goes on to have seven children. What a lovely fellow he was. But, but it's, I said to him, you know, did you, did you ever have nightmares after the war? You know, did you, did you struggle with it? He said, yes, he did. Always.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Faces you don't forget, names you forget. I can think of people when they were killed and where they were killed and places and instances. And you don't really value the comradeship when you're there. You take it for granted. It's afterwards you realise what these fellows really meant to you and the wonderful things people did for each other, the close relationship. It's a strange thing. But I never thought I'd ever die. I knew it was quite a strong possibility, but I always thought it would be someone else. And I felt a bit cowardly in that, sort of wishing it on them and not me and thinking, I'm sorry, but I'm glad it's you and not me. It's self-preservation.

• 36:35Speaker 06

  Hello. Do you want to know the good news?

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Go on, Jim.

• 36:38Speaker 06

  Sam lived to a hundred. He died in 2022.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Incredible. That is fantastic. Well, Jim, thanks so much for sharing that, um, with us. I mean, I, I, you know, we do, we, we do do a lot of arrows on maps or inventories of factories and, you know what I mean? But to talk about an individual and to get that glimpse into how he felt about what he went through. And that he was frank about the downs as well as the ups. Cause, cause you know, all too often you get, you get people saying, well, you know, there's bits I'd rather not talk about, but all in all, it was, I wouldn't have missed it for the world. What a jolly, jolly experience that was. For him to talk about going home and how hard that was.

• 37:16Speaker 06

  Yes. Or, or like Tubby, when he's, when he's being depth charged 36 times. I suppose it was a bit hairy.

• 37:25Speaker 06

  One way of putting it, Tubbs, you know, um, he, he's just one of those ones that, one of those people that I'll never forget. And one of those ones that those conversations, I had several conversations with him. I knew him pretty well. Uh, one of those things where it just sort of stays with you, you know, and, um, the, the Ronnie Dowie, um, the story about going back home, the terrible ambulance journey after his wound in city Rosegg, you know, the, uh, yeah, the, the Lieutenant McDonald arriving in Italy. There was quite a lot of stuff in Italy that we didn't have, really have time to go into. There's, there's a bit more of it than, than, than we told. But yeah, just remarkable, remarkable, a remarkable man, remarkable life. And just, you just, how can you not be in

• 38:08Speaker 06

  awe of these people? These ordinary men from their ordinary backgrounds, you know, in Merseyside or Crosby or wherever. And boy, they, they, they step up to the plate, don't they?

• 38:19Speaker 00

  But he joins the army thinking it'll be like a lark and it, and it, a bit of an adventure. He's not really joining because he feels he has to do his bit. He's thinking, oh, it'll be a bit of a lark, a bit of an adventure. Discovers soon enough that it ain't no lark. It ain't, for all the like parts exotic and the foreign travel, it ain't no lark. It ain't no adventure. But that doesn't mean he there, he decides to check out as a result, does it? It doesn't mean he thinks, what I need then is a blighty wound or I've got to find a way of driving a lorry in the rear, in the rear or whatever. You know what I mean? He, he still.

• 38:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Applies himself to it, sticks with it and finds his, finds his way through. And I think that's really interesting too, because, you know, the callow boy, the 18 year old who joins the TA for the uniform and probably the nice, and the, and the food at the weekend, you know, finds himself in, in, in, at fighting at Knightsbridge, which couldn't, which really, that would be plenty for me. I'd probably be saying, surely I've done my bit now. I think I've done my bit. Thanks very much. Uh.

• 39:19Speaker 06

  But there you are, kind of two years later in Italy. I mean, Jesus, getting, getting shot in the neck. And, and you, but, but also what I think was so nice about that is, is, is you reading out all those bits. You, you really got a sense of his voice and his character, didn't you? I have a very vivid picture of what he was like, but, but you must get a pretty good idea from, from this series of what kind of man he was. He's sort of young and bright and proud and stubborn and, and cussed, but incredibly honest.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  And, and thoughtful and honest and considered. And, and you know, that's how we've ended up with so much good, good stuff to talk about. Well, thanks everyone for listening. We hope you've enjoyed that. I think this might be a thing we come back to is other individuals, um, uh, to sort of do a bit of this colouring in.

• 39:59Speaker 06

  Well, I've got lots of them. Interviewed about 300 people in my time. So, you know.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  We hope that you've joined the We Have Ways Patreon, um, where there's all sorts of goodies. Um, there's audiobooks, there's, uh, uh, episodes without adverts. There's, um, uh, you can work your way through four parters when they, as and when they come in. Um, there's the live cast as well, kind of every other Monday. We will see you very soon. Thanks for listening. Cheerio.

• 40:21Speaker 06

  Cheerio.

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