Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Our Sex Life is a Disaster About this episode We hear from a couple who have long been happy in their marriage, except for one thing: their sex life. In moments of intimacy, one freezes, the other hesitates, and they end up locked in a cycle of uncertainty and distress. On the precipice of becoming parents, they come to Esther worried about how their sex life might further deteriorate in this next stage of life. Is it possible to restore the magical physical connection that they once felt? Esther guides them through somatic exercises to re-establish trust, discover pleasure, and help them move together from their minds into their bodies.
Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments.
Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.
0:25 Speaker 01 I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather.
0:44 Speaker 02 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
0:47 Speaker 01 We've got hardware that helps blind people see, and dairy? I never imagined my life journey would be milk. Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
1:02 Speaker 03 Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at Odoo.com/vox. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash vox.
1:41 Speaker 04 We've really been having trouble connecting sexually. It just ends in disaster, basically, like anytime we try.
1:51 Esther Perel? I wrote my book "Mating in Captivity" because so often, people would come to see me and their opening line would be, "We love each other very much, we have no sex." And that begged the question, "Why does good intimacy so often fade in people who continue to love each other as much as ever?" This couple, these two women, they are completely stuck in an erotic stalemate. The context of the moment is that one of them is eight months pregnant and everybody has been warning them about the expected decline of their sexual activity.
2:33 Speaker 04 You are eight months pregnant and you are feeling a time pressure and a fear of what sex will be like after you have a baby and, you know, the crazy things people will tell you when you're pregnant and what your sex life will be after that.
2:48 Esther Perel? But it doesn't seem like this is just a developmental and circumstantial reality between them. Basically, the dance is that one of them approaches and the other one tries to do it right. But the word "trying" is what is complicated here because the moment she tries, her partner feels that she's not really into it. She then gets really upset and then they stop everything and then they launch a deep, three-hour conversation into the night that brings them back together into their closeness and intimacy, but also into a complete erotic dry spell. And this gets repeated and repeated,
3:33 Esther Perel? so they arrive eager to break free of this sexual impasse. So let's listen.
3:43 Speaker 04 We've been together six years and we have this shared brand and we met. It was very beautiful in that way, just like, "Yeah, let's talk more, let's do more stuff with each other, let's plan a trip, let's do it." Then we got married.
4:03 Speaker 04 And it was very freeing and very, like, pure.
4:10 Esther Perel? To you.
4:13 Speaker 04 Well, I think that like initial metaphor, I always say it's like. I'm an anthropologist and she's. A series of hidden doors, so very curious about her, I like wanna know. And she's extremely.
4:29 Esther Perel? You can't say you cause she's sitting next to you, just in case you want.
4:33 Speaker 04 You're very, very interesting to me. And then you convinced me to trust you in a way I've never trusted anybody else. Cause you're made of more tough material than other people, I think.
4:52 Esther Perel? What would be your material? You're made of.
4:56 Speaker 04 What's my material?
5:00 Speaker 04 Um, I think I'm extremely certain about who. I am, what I want, I have a lot of words immediately about. My emotions, it's very direct. I'm trying to explain myself all the time.
5:22 Speaker 04 And that kind of hides that I'm not. Really trusting of other people to do it for themselves. And so I've developed these ways to. Really do a lot of work for them. I'm very sensitive to how they're feeling. I'm very alert, very vigilant to their moods. And I'm very descriptive with how I feel and how I wanna be treated so that they know how to get it right. I'm providing them all the data.
5:53 Esther Perel? And they can please your wife?
5:57 Speaker 04 I think a lot of times that's what I'm trying to do.
6:03 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think you are afraid of being misunderstood. I feel like you have a lot of words for your feelings and your emotions and you know what they are right when you're feeling them. And when you're feeling them, you have to say them. And I don't, like, I'll be crying and you'll ask me what's wrong or what I'm feeling and I can't name a word for it. But you're the person who's like slowly brought that out.
6:33 Esther Perel? So you're learning a new language?
6:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
6:39 Esther Perel? That you didn't know existed or that you were taught to suppress or that wasn't valued?
6:54 Speaker 06 I think my value was that I'm easygoing. I'm not gonna make a
7:02 Esther Perel? Fuss.
7:02 Speaker 06 Make a fuss, make a problem. You don't have to worry about me. And I get praised for being useful and helpful and kind and not making it about me. And I think part of what I learned with that was like, okay, so it's just like accommodate everyone else. Everything's okay if you're able to like maneuver around and go with the flow and not be bothered by anyone or anything.
7:29 Esther Perel? And what would you say are the circumstances of your life that made that way of being so
7:38 Speaker 06 I think like my childhood, like growing up in a two different houses, the really chaotic stepfather and
7:50 Esther Perel? Chaotic can mean a lot of things. If we're gonna go to new language and more precision.
7:58 Speaker 06 He was more of a child than a parent in the way he acted. So was not dependable in that role to me. While also chaotically ripping apart our house. And turns out he didn't pay taxes and then we had to file bankruptcy and like both chaotic physically, but also like emotionally. It was always like, he was doing something wacky.
8:28 Speaker 04 But in that house, my grandmother lived on the bottom floor. And so I just like hung out with her all the time. Whenever things were like a little chaotic, I was like, I'll leave. Go be with my grandma. All that goes on upstairs and I take refuge over here.
8:44 Esther Perel? Yeah, you shielded yourself.
8:46 Speaker 04 Yeah.
8:48 Esther Perel? And so why her of all people?
8:52 Esther Perel? Of all people, why you?
8:57 Speaker 04 I think you're unlike anyone I've ever met. You're so fun and funny. Like, I joke about it, but you do have a zest for life that is very like infectious. And I think I know I have that in me as well, but it can be tamped down by my like pragmatism, I think. And you bring that out in me when I feel like I am like a stick in the mud or like. You encourage me to have fun in life and I need that.
9:28 Esther Perel? So you're the stick and you're the arabesque?
9:35 Esther Perel? And what made you want to do a session here? How did that come about?
9:45 Speaker 04 Well, we've had a hard last two years. And I think we've really been having trouble connecting sexually.
9:59 Speaker 04 It just ends in disaster, basically, like anytime we try. We'll intend to have sex, like we'll like start connecting and then something will feel off. And however I bring that up will lead to conversation that becomes more and more emotional and heightened and heated and it will end in us both sobbing. And no physical connection happens. And then at this point, I think we're just kind of avoiding that entirely because it feels so stuck.
10:42 Speaker 04 And so pointless to keep trying in that vein. But that's awful too, like.
10:52 Speaker 04 I feel like I understand the pattern. Like, I understand why we're both making these mistakes and I don't know how to not make them.
11:03 Esther Perel? So, tell me, because this wasn't always like that, or, okay, wasn't always that. So, what is a little snapshot of sex between the two of us, the ons and offs? What's been the history? What's been glamorous and fun and glorious and blissful and what's been upsetting and?
11:32 Speaker 04 I think, I don't know, maybe I'll speak for myself, because I want to hear from you too. That, like, at the beginning especially, it was so, so much discovery. I remember I used to say, like, I didn't know I was in a box. I'm stepping out of this box that I didn't even know I was in. Having sex with men was fine, well, it wasn't that great, but, like, it could be fine. But having sex with a woman that I was in love with was extraordinary. I kept being more stretched out and more amazed at how good it felt.
12:14 Speaker 04 I remember crying a lot after orgasming, just being so overwhelmed by how happy I was.
12:23 Speaker 04 And I think then it got a little hard, because there was like a disagreement of how much we wanted to have sex. But we went to therapy then and it got better.
12:35 Esther Perel? What did you do there that was helpful?
12:39 Speaker 06 I think the things we took from that that we still use are like, it's always better when we are lighter. We're at our best when we're like, having a good time and it's fun and it's
12:51 Esther Perel? Playful.
12:51 Speaker 06 Playful. I think in sex, it gets too easy to dive into the, like, heady space. And then we're like, in a deep conversation, and then it just gets so heavy and we don't know how to get out of it.
13:05 Esther Perel? And when you go deep, where do you go? What exactly? Is it the same conversation over and over?
13:13 Speaker 06 In some aspects, and I feel like it's just like, there's so many things that have like globbed on to it. Where it's like, you are eight months pregnant and you are feeling a time pressure and a fear of what sex will be like after you have a baby. And you've had a lot of self-body hatred that I think is like attached to it. And it gets really like, do you desire me? And also, my body is changing and will continue to change. And then I think you have had a past assault experience that I think we had previously talked about. But I think in the last year, at least, how it has like risen to the surface more.
13:55 Speaker 06 And that fear has is much more present for you than previously. So sometimes like that comes up. You get upset because you are picking up on my energy of uncertainty or nervousness in what to do next. Your fear is that I don't want to be there. And you don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to be there. And so I think those like fears, everything else starts like raining down on them. And so then we're like having these conversations where we're pulling these apart. But they're kind of conversations we've had a lot. And then it's nine times out of 10 gets to a place of, okay, we are connected again.
14:35 Speaker 06 But we always end that being like, why did we have to spend two hours going through that again?
14:42 Esther Perel? Yep, that's a good summary.
14:45 Speaker 06 And I think a lot of what I see as your fear is getting it wrong.
14:54 Speaker 06 And I've become so upset all the time that you are like very, very worried that you're getting it wrong. And then your touch becomes hesitant. And then I'm picking up on that and getting all wound up about that, which makes you more nervous. And not feeling super connected to what you want, which is hard for you in the first place.
15:15 Esther Perel? Okay.
15:18 Esther Perel? But you had a version of that a few years before you got pregnant.
15:26 Esther Perel? And you went and sought help and somebody said, if you keep it light, you bring your playfulness into it, it actually will keep you in the experience. And you were able to do it. Which is really important. There's a part of you that feels like there's a timeliness to it now. You feel like, ah, I've got a few more months of woman before mother. And then God knows what's gonna happen to me.
15:54 Speaker 04 Well, it's definitely feeling like pressure. It feels like we're running out of time. We wasted all this time not connecting.
16:05 Esther Perel? Tell me a little bit about becoming pregnant. How was that? And how much has that had an effect?
16:14 Speaker 04 Yeah, that was part of the hardness of the last two years. It just took a while. We had to immediately go to the doctor to do it. We tried a bunch of times with increasing intervention. And then finally did IVF. And it was very expensive. And, you know, it was a lot of hormones that made me crazy, well, the I U I hormones that were terrible. Your whole life becomes revolving around this cycle and you can't plan anything, you can't travel and you can't. Yeah, so it sucked.
16:59 Speaker 06 I think we were both feeling really alone in different ways during a lot of it and had a really hard time. Tried our best to empathize with each other, but it it was really hard to like fully see each other because I think we were going through such different things.
17:19 Esther Perel? But can you have experiences where you feel more differentiated? Without that instantly meaning that you have to feel more lonely or alone?
17:32 Speaker 04 Well, I'm not sure if this addresses what you're saying, but we were being so careful with each other. I am so empathic towards you. I know you're trying so hard, like, you'd be like out of your mind doing chores, working so hard, making sure that everything was operating well. And I'd be trying so hard to like regulate my emotions, so I wasn't taking things out on you. And we were just being like extremely polite to each other. We weren't connected. And it was kind of like roommates almost, like, in a kind way, but very separate.
18:13 Esther Perel? Welcome to marital formality.
18:17 Speaker 04 Marital formality.
18:20 Esther Perel? That's how I'm visualizing it as you describe it.
18:26 Esther Perel? But you experienced it because you were going through something different.
18:34 Esther Perel? I E. you're pregnant, I'm not, you're doing the shots, I'm not. And this is like our first exercise where it's challenging for us to actually, that's what I mean by differentiated, recognize this difference. Without it becoming distant and formal.
18:54 Speaker 04 Yeah.
18:55 Esther Perel? And isolating.
18:58 Esther Perel? So, the question is, how do you both
19:04 Esther Perel? have things that you know the other person may not fully see without having this have bad consequences?
19:14 Esther Perel? Because what you describe sexually is kind of similar. I began to not know exactly what you want, and so I started to become so cautious. I don't want to do it wrong, whatever that means. And the effect I become more disconnected from my own pleasure because I'm busy making sure you're okay. And it starts to become more caretaking than lovemaking. And when that caretaking takes place, we become emotionally entangled with each other, but we're not having fun. It kind of curtails the pleasure. We can be caring, we can be loving, but we're not able to actually let go, which is the foundation for being able to enjoy it.
20:01 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think that's, sounds right. I feel like we've before realized, like, the fun. Having fun together.
20:11 Esther Perel? What you call light, I call fun.
20:13 Speaker 04 Yeah.
20:13 Esther Perel? But I'm talking, it's not just like fluffy fun.
20:16 Speaker 04 Yeah.
20:17 Esther Perel? Because you've kind of highlighted the importance of the light. The lightness, right? This is the opposite of any conversation.
20:34 Esther Perel? Psychological digging, plumbing, probing, responsible, loving, caring, but not able to, you can't do the two at the same time.
20:47 Esther Perel? When you bring to your sexuality a level of emotional responsibility and caretaking, you will block the erotic energy. That is the playfulness that then becomes translated into sex. That means no talking anymore of that sort. After, before, unrelated, but not in that moment.
21:17 Esther Perel? Even if you have to stop.
21:20 Esther Perel? Stop, put some music, stop, do some breathing, stop, do gentle touch. Don't start telling what's happening in your heads. Because you will go there because you're kind, loving, caring people.
21:38 Esther Perel? And you will think that you can't go back to the play until you've taken care of the bassinet.
21:51 Esther Perel? I want to clarify this a little bit. Because, of course, there is responsibility and worry and care in love. It's when the burden of responsibility becomes excessive or overwhelming to the person. It's when the caretaking takes over that I begin to sense that the very ingredients that nurture love are sometimes the same ones that stifle desire. Because if you feel intensely responsible for the other person, you cannot let go.
22:31 Esther Perel? Letting go, surrender, is an experience of freedom and unselfconsciousness. If you're busy making sure the other person is okay, you cannot actually enter inside yourself to surrender. That doesn't mean that one has to become careless. It's a real gradation. And some people understand that there is a way in which they love that makes it harder for them to make love to the person they love. And this is what I think about when I listen to them. It's like the kind of connection that they are cultivating brings the emotional security that they need. But sometimes what makes us feel emotionally secure
23:15 Esther Perel? is not the same as what makes us feel sexually excited. And that's when they say the lightness is so important to them. Because the lightness means that we are being playful, mischievous, curious. And that lightness creates a certain differentiation, a certain space between them that then allows them to come close. It's difficult to go inside another. I'm not talking about orifices. I'm talking about the universe of another when you are already inside.
23:48 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session, and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
24:04 Speaker 01 I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
24:16 Speaker 02 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
24:21 Speaker 01 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands.
24:26 Speaker 06 We're building Eight Sleep for daytime.
24:28 Speaker 01 Hardware that helps blind people see.
24:31 Speaker 07 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
24:36 Speaker 01 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
24:38 Speaker 02 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
24:41 Speaker 06 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
24:49 Speaker 01 And dairy?
24:51 Speaker 02 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
24:53 Speaker 01 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine. When it's the end of the day and you're settled into the couch looking for your evening watch, you're not looking for Homework the Movie. You're looking for comfort, excitement, or something in between. Whether you're craving something familiar or in the mood to discover something new, Amazon Prime has what you need from screen to doorstep. Because it's not just about genres or endless content. It's about finding the thing that matches how you're feeling, whatever the mood. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.
25:35 Speaker 01 Stonefire Knan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery charred flatbread for any meal.
25:40 Esther Perel? I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken. Stonefire Knan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.
25:47 Speaker 01 I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that guy okay? I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste. Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help? You can share Stonefire Knan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine. Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we gnaw.
26:08 Speaker 04 But how?
26:11 Speaker 04 It seems like sometimes I have such a bad feeling. I'm so overwhelmed.
26:18 Esther Perel? If you took her hand now, when you feel that overwhelm, where would you put her hand? Because you were having a moment of it right now too, right? She's giving me something to do. It's more thing I need to do. I don't know how to get to it. I can't even consider the thought of it because I'm instantly overwhelmed by the idea that I can't do it. So, and where do you put her hand when you're overwhelmed?
26:47 Esther Perel? Okay?
26:49 Esther Perel? And then you want to lean your head in it. All right, let it go.
26:56 Esther Perel? Let your head lean in her hand.
27:00 Esther Perel? And then stop checking to see how she's doing.
27:04 Esther Perel? Don't check, is she okay? Is it okay? Am I asking too much? Am I too much? Stop thinking about her for a second, if you can.
27:20 Esther Perel? Now you just went back to check on her. Stop checking on her.
27:30 Esther Perel? And what I just said, you can tell her too. Are you okay? Are you worried about yourself?
27:38 Speaker 04 No.
27:38 Esther Perel? Alright, let her know that you don't need that kind of caretaking in the moment.
27:43 Speaker 04 It's okay. You don't have to worry about me right now.
27:52 Esther Perel? Why did you take the hand off?
27:55 Speaker 04 Because I wanted to be able to check in on her.
28:03 Esther Perel? We're gonna have a little box for coins. And every time you go to check on her, you're gonna put coins in the box.
28:12 Speaker 04 Oh, we're retired soon. We'll have our retirement soon.
28:22 Speaker 04 I don't know, it's like, I feel like I already take up so much of the space being taken care of.
28:32 Esther Perel? Could it be possible that when you actually stop, you take more space?
28:40 Esther Perel? If you take the hand, do it again. So you put your hand, you put it on your face, right? And then you leaned your face on it. And then, you can close your eyes if you want. That way, it may help you a little bit more to not be so focused on her. And then you realize, I'm agitated, and I'm just gonna stay with the sensation.
29:10 Esther Perel? I just need to bring me back in my body. So I'm going to breathe. I'm going to use the hand because I'm resting on it. And it just feels solid. And I can let the weight of my head lean on her. And that leaning brings a lot of trust and safety because I'm not all alone. I'm just enjoying the feel of this. And by the way, you can move the hand. Because the whole effort for you is to not begin to try to think about any of this. Just, it's okay. We get taken out of our body and we go back in. And we go back in through touch, through breath, through movement.
29:52 Esther Perel? And that is how you keep this contained.
30:00 Esther Perel? How much of this have you been able to hear now?
30:04 Speaker 04 I think a lot.
30:06 Esther Perel? Tell me what you hear.
30:11 Speaker 04 Well, that it really needs to be protected from the emotional digging. That that's very threatening to the space that it needs to be.
30:29 Speaker 06 I think that feels really helpful. When you're having a big emotional reaction, my instinct is to like guard myself. And that makes you want to check on me more.
30:48 Esther Perel? What do you mean by guard?
30:51 Speaker 06 Like I get overwhelmed.
30:53 Speaker 04 When I'm mad?
30:53 Speaker 06 When you're mad. Sometimes I get overwhelmed when you're so upset because you're so sad. It just like feels so bad to watch that. That I feel helpless and that I'm responsible and that I've caused this pain for you. And don't want to sit in that bad feeling.
31:16 Esther Perel? And this credit that you're giving yourself is...
31:21 Esther Perel? True or manufactured by your very creative mind?
31:26 Speaker 06 I think a little of both.
31:29 Esther Perel? Give it to me.
31:32 Speaker 04 You said it was ninety-five percent your fault the other day.
31:35 Speaker 06 I did say it was ninety-five percent.
31:37 Esther Perel? With great accuracy, you are measuring the credit. Okay.
31:42 Speaker 06 Well, you asked, you asked for the percent.
31:46 Speaker 06 I think some of it is like,
31:49 Speaker 06 if I know I'm causing pain or like doing something you don't want, all I can do is try to fix these problems that I've caused. Yeah, that it's like-
32:03 Esther Perel? Where have you caused, okay.
32:06 Esther Perel? You're starting to connect with each other. You're playing around. It's supposed to feel good. What happens?
32:16 Speaker 06 When she gets angry?
32:17 Esther Perel? Yeah, like where, where, why suddenly anger? And that you caused on top of it?
32:22 Speaker 06 It's because like I touch her too lightly or in a way that she's picking up an energy that I am too nervous or don't wanna be there or it's like this vibe shift that she picks up on that I am not always aware of. And so I think it takes me off guard where she's like, what's wrong?
32:40 Esther Perel? Ah, so that's what, that's the way you start communicating what's wrong?
32:44 Speaker 06 Well, previously-
32:46 Esther Perel? That's very useful.
32:46 Speaker 06 Well, I, I, yeah, I have expressed that's not a good way to reach me. But you are-
32:53 Speaker 04 That's the basic intent.
32:54 Speaker 06 But I think in this point, yeah, you, it depends on the situation. Sometimes you're able to ask in a way that feels a lot better. But I think you usually are saying like, something feels off. And I think I try to respond like, I'm here with you, I'm trying.
33:14 Esther Perel? Oh, I'm trying? No, the trying is also off.
33:20 Speaker 06 Yeah.
33:21 Esther Perel? Okay, we gotta make a little list of the words that really are not helpful in this conversation.
33:28 Speaker 06 And then if I try something else and it still doesn't feel right, then I think you get really upset. It escalates.
33:38 Esther Perel? And if you were to ask her in that moment for something, do you say pinch me, do you say squeeze, do you say harder, do you ask for something? Or do you start to ask her what's wrong?
33:52 Speaker 04 I mean, I think I sometimes ask for what I want. And when that doesn't feel good.
34:02 Esther Perel? To whom?
34:03 Speaker 04 Me, I get really upset. It's like describing what I want does not work to get what I want. And part of what seems like is missing is being with somebody who also wants that thing. I'm getting like somebody following instructions and it's not fun or pleasurable for both of us. So then what's the point?
34:34 Esther Perel? And do you have a kind of an instant despair, I'm never gonna be met?
34:40 Speaker 04 I think that does happen a lot, yeah.
34:41 Esther Perel? Yeah.
34:43 Speaker 04 Especially after like not being able to communicate what I want for so long at this point.
34:51 Esther Perel? With her?
34:51 Speaker 04 Yeah.
34:56 Esther Perel? There's a lot that's being said here. But one thought is sexual frustration. It has a meanness to it. It has an edge. A person I once worked with described that when they have that kind of sexual frustration, it's like the baby that can't find the nipple. Either they instantly get it or they get a little frustrated just trying to gauge and find that nipple. But if they can't find it and if they can't latch on to it and if they can't instantly feel good, they're thrown off into a total state of despair and cry.
35:37 Esther Perel? It's not just the actual hunger, it's also the emotional being met. And she says it, she says it in an adult language, but she points at something that is very young and very primary.
35:57 Speaker 06 It's all me and my desires that's driving everything. And then I have made it almost impossible for you to share and be connected to your desires. But now there's no fun. So there's none of your desires there.
36:13 Esther Perel? So if you want to say something, you cannot wait till she's done.
36:19 Speaker 06 Oh, that's tough.
36:22 Esther Perel? This is true in words? This is true in sex?
36:27 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think I give you a lot of space to be mad at me. Or to like, yeah, express everything. I think especially if like, you've been saying that you're trying to communicate something and I'm not understanding it. It feels like, okay, well, I gotta give her like a lot of space to try to like explain herself and feel understood and feel that I'm getting it.
36:48 Esther Perel? Okay. And that hasn't worked too great.
36:51 Speaker 06 Yeah.
36:52 Esther Perel? Okay.
36:53 Speaker 06 No more talking.
36:55 Esther Perel? So I watch this.
36:58 Speaker 06 That's what I've been saying all along.
36:59 Esther Perel? She continues. And the more you try to make yourself available and good listener, at the end you'll disconnect from yourself.
37:09 Esther Perel? So the very thing that she's hoping won't happen is what she's colluding with you to create, unfortunately. You have got to stop her sooner. Nicely, kindly. But the bigger you become, the better it will be.
37:29 Speaker 06 My nightmare.
37:33 Esther Perel? I thought I'm offering you an offer you can't refuse. You think it's your nightmare.
37:44 Esther Perel? Sometimes people mean to do something really well, kind. I'm gonna give you the space to explain yourself to me. But in the process, I'm gonna be so focused on you that I'm gonna end up losing me. And by losing me, you actually are not going to appreciate how much focus I put on you. You're going to be angry that I come to you and that I have lost my own identity, my own sovereignty, my own autonomy, my own desire, my own needs, because I'm all totally focused on you. All of that in the name of love.
38:23 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.
38:28 Speaker 01 Stonefire Knan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery, charred flatbread for any meal. I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.
38:35 Speaker 07 Stonefire Knan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.
38:39 Speaker 01 I love making Knan grilled cheese. Is that guy okay?
38:43 Speaker 07 I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.
38:45 Speaker 01 Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?
38:49 Speaker 07 You can share Stonefire Knan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.
38:53 Speaker 01 Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we Knan.
38:59 Speaker 03 Say hello to smooth, sugar-like sweetness with Truvia Alulose Plus Stevia Sweetener and Monk Fruit Sweetener. This blend delivers balanced sweetness that minimizes aftertaste with zero calories per serving. Designed to fit everyday moments, Truvia Alulose Blend measures cup for cup like sugar, making it effortless to swap into beverages, baking, and even savory dishes. Find Truvia Alulose Plus Stevia Sweetener and Monk Fruit Sweetener online and nationwide at Kroger, Target, and your favorite local grocery retailer.
39:30 Speaker 00 Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light, and slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.
39:59 Esther Perel? This is probably true in many aspects of your relationships. You have to grow. You have to take more space, in the good sense of the word.
40:07 Speaker 06 Yeah.
40:08 Esther Perel? You met someone who is the best teacher you can get in that department, because she can take. She expands. The more room you give her, the more she will feel it.
40:21 Esther Perel? There's nothing bad about that, but part of the attraction is for you to then learn some of that, where she will learn from you that you don't have to say it six times.
40:37 Esther Perel? Or that if you ask for a certain touch and you don't get it immediately, that doesn't mean that you are forever condemned in the kingdom of never being met. That you will forever, you know, be too much and not be met. So this is a kind of a misses too much and misses too little. What would you want in those moments if you could rewrite that script?
41:05 Speaker 06 Like what I wish would happen?
41:07 Esther Perel? Or what you're gonna make happen?
41:12 Speaker 06 I think stopping you from going down that path.
41:16 Esther Perel? How are you gonna do this?
41:19 Speaker 06 Just saying you don't have to go down that road right now, like stay here.
41:24 Esther Perel? Can you say this with a little bit more conviction?
41:32 Speaker 06 Yes, but it's hard. You don't have to go down that road right now. Is that better? It felt slightly better. Though it didn't negate it? Okay, cut that out.
41:47 Esther Perel? You will do it until you feel, I got it. I got it. It's not so much in the words as it will be in the power of your voice, in the conviction, and in the, I know that I'm doing something good for us, even if she's not there yet.
42:04 Speaker 06 Yeah.
42:05 Esther Perel? You have something available at that moment that she doesn't have.
42:12 Speaker 06 Why does it feel so hard?
42:16 Speaker 06 I don't know. It's almost like counterintuitive to like tell you to stop, to not give you the space to go down a dark hole.
42:28 Speaker 06 That that's actually what you need.
42:31 Speaker 06 Yeah, a container, not space. That let me grow indefinitely.
42:39 Speaker 06 You have to be the genie living in a bottle.
42:45 Esther Perel? If you do this with her,
42:48 Esther Perel? you will have changed something fundamental about your childhood too.
42:53 Speaker 04 Probably gotta do that too.
42:55 Esther Perel? Do you understand? You see this?
42:58 Speaker 04 Yeah.
42:59 Esther Perel? You had these chaotic people. They expanded. They took up all the space. You shrunk, you went downstairs. The idea was, my role is to make sure that I think about everybody else and I let them expand and take the least amount of space possible. And that was very self-protective and very useful. But when you do that with her, the reality is different. And she's very clearly telling you, I need, in this case, the more you rise,
43:36 Esther Perel? the more balanced the relationship will become. The more balanced the relationship will become, the more you can connect to your own desires. The more you connect to your own desires, the more she will have someone that she can bounce against.
43:54 Esther Perel? Because you can't let go in front of someone who collapses. You can only let go when this person has confidence.
44:03 Esther Perel? If you're too scared or too fragile, then the other person holds back the whole time too. And that is exactly what happens sexually too.
44:15 Speaker 04 I believe it.
44:17 Esther Perel? Does that make sense?
44:20 Speaker 04 Yeah, it does.
44:23 Speaker 04 How does it happen though?
44:29 Esther Perel? I just wanna try something with you. Come.
44:38 Esther Perel? Which one wants to start?
44:41 Speaker 06 Me.
44:41 Esther Perel? Okay, take your hand. Just start walking.
44:46 Speaker 06 This way.
44:49 Esther Perel? And this walking, you can call it like collaborate. So you know, you're collaborating, you're walking, you're collaborating. And now I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say resist.
45:02 Esther Perel? Resist. You're gonna have to pull a little more.
45:06 Speaker 06 Yes.
45:11 Esther Perel? And passive. Totally passive.
45:17 Esther Perel? And resist.
45:20 Speaker 06 No fair, you're using two hands.
45:23 Esther Perel? And passive.
45:27 Esther Perel? And collaborate. So this enactment, it's an exploration around different power positions. One person is leading, the other person is following. They hold hands and one person walks across the room. This was in our offices here in the studios. And in the first iteration, I guide you and you are collaborating.
45:48 Speaker 06 Collaborate.
45:50 Esther Perel? So it's a fairly equal position. We both have decision-making, we share the direction, so to speak.
45:55 Speaker 06 Collaborate.
45:56 Esther Perel? In the second one, you resist.
45:58 Speaker 06 Resist. Resist.
46:02 Esther Perel? And instantly, you hear the intensity shift. There is an energy in the body, there is a playfulness that sits in. Because resistance in playful mode is intensely fun. If I pull your hand and you keep pulling me, and we pull in opposite direction, we have this tension, we have this force that is created. But you can only resist something that is trying to pull you with equal or stronger power. That is exactly what we are describing and exploring sexually speaking as well. The third stance is the passivity. And the passivity, you know, for some people, it's a treat to have somebody who just follows them around, a passive, sweet puppy with no intentionality of their own.
46:48 Esther Perel? And for other people, it's really a terrible experience to pull that meat. So the exploration of these stances sheds a lot of light on the dynamics between people in relationships.
47:04 Esther Perel? So, what was it like to lead and to be led?
47:12 Speaker 04 My favorite one was leading when the other person resisted.
47:17 Speaker 06 That was no fair.
47:18 Speaker 04 It felt very fun. It felt more fun to drag you around resisting.
47:27 Esther Perel? Because?
47:29 Speaker 04 Because we were playing and you had a lot of intention. Like we were playing a game. Passive was the worst. The collaboration was just like, this is nice to hold my wife's hand and walk around. Passive was boring and resisting was fun.
47:54 Esther Perel? Yes.
47:58 Esther Perel? Here's what I saw. I saw you bend and get close to the ground to muster your strength and then to see what she got.
48:09 Esther Perel? So you probably felt that you had to build her strength.
48:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, that's probably right.
48:18 Speaker 04 I think sometimes it feels like I am responsible for both of us.
48:25 Esther Perel? For drawing her out.
48:27 Speaker 04 Yeah.
48:30 Speaker 04 And for explaining to her what she needs to do for me. And so I feel she's not rising to the occasion because I still have to explain it.
48:41 Speaker 06 Like I'm not being that firm.
48:45 Speaker 04 Yeah. Or it's like if I still have to generate it, I'm like, be strong for me. Like, I can't ask that. It takes away what it means for you to be strong.
48:59 Speaker 06 So then it doesn't count to you?
49:02 Speaker 04 Or just still lies in my responsibility?
49:06 Speaker 06 You can't let go then?
49:08 Esther Perel? Uh huh, correct. Or you.
49:14 Esther Perel? That's the piece of control in sexuality that involves letting go. You cannot fully let go if you don't experience the sturdiness of the other person.
49:28 Speaker 06 So we both have to be sturdy. And also let go.
49:35 Speaker 04 I think it's hard for me to believe that when I'm leaning fully on you that you're enjoying it. When I ask if you're enjoying it, you say yes, I don't believe you.
49:51 Speaker 06 I mean, it feels painful to hear you say that.
49:57 Speaker 06 I think I don't always know how to respond. Because it feels like if you already don't believe me, how else can I explain it to make you believe me?
50:08 Esther Perel? You take it upon you.
50:11 Esther Perel? If she doesn't believe you, it's your problem. That's not necessarily the case. If she doesn't believe you, that may be her challenge. That says more about how she thinks about herself or feels about herself maybe than even how she feels about you. I wouldn't be so quick to personalize it.
50:34 Esther Perel? On occasion, you enjoy when there's no chaos.
50:39 Esther Perel? That is enough for you to feel like you're enjoying. For her, enjoying is claiming. And that is going to be the opportunity that this relationship offers you.
50:51 Speaker 06 To learn how to do that?
50:52 Esther Perel? Hmm. And to value it, to appreciate it, not just to learn, but to have it be something that enlightens and enlivens the relationship.
51:03 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think it's like we both are sometimes trying to take care of the other too intensely and then have a hard time connecting in that. And it's like something so simple is going back to like... Touching each other with the trust that like we know we're trying to care for each other. That exists, but like fully letting go into that.
51:33 Speaker 06 It seems simple, but we don't do it.
51:37 Esther Perel? This is taking and receiving. You have primary verbs. There are seven verbs around sex, but in relationships too, but asking. Can you ask? Do you ask each other? Do you ask what you like? Do you know how to ask? Do you know what to ask for? Do you feel comfortable asking? Giving. You like to give?
52:00 Esther Perel? Do you give and you try to do it right? Do you give with ease? Do you give because you love to be generous and you love to know that you're the one who can give this? Do you give because you're afraid that you owe? And that you're trying to acquit from your debt?
52:17 Esther Perel? I mean, there's lots of positive and more challenging things around giving. Same with receiving. For many people, receiving is the hardest, sexually speaking for sure. And if you have negative self-talk around your body, it will be harder. It's not harder to receive when she does it right, but when she doesn't do it right, you will instantly personalize it. So you each have your ways of personalizing. So you have asking, giving, receiving, taking. Then you have sharing. And then you have playing or imagining. And then you have refusing.
52:55 Esther Perel? And you can ask yourself, which is the verb that I need to practice more?
53:01 Esther Perel? Which is the one that comes easy for me? Which would I like to bolster a little bit? And they are all translated somatically in the body.
53:21 Esther Perel? One of the most important balances, equilibrium in a relationship is how do I stay connected with you without disconnecting from me? How do I stay connected with myself without disconnecting from you? And I am looking at the relational patterns, at the dance here. One woman who is unbounded and one woman who's slightly walled off. One who takes up a lot of space and one who constantly effaces herself. And this very dynamic of I make sure to tell people what I need so they will know how to behave toward me. What she doesn't say in the beginning of the session is that when she does that, over time,
54:04 Esther Perel? she also doesn't believe that when they do it, they actually mean it. And the wife basically tries so hard to respond to the needs of her partner that in effect, she has no idea what she wants. And she's back at the stage that she was when they first met. I was someone who had been so overwhelmed in this chaotic household, and I learned to not have much needs of anything. And here I find myself meeting someone who is an excellent teacher for expressing one's needs. She does it all the time. But in effect, we have now recreated the very dynamic that we were both trying to get out of.
54:49 Esther Perel? And it's playing itself out in all aspects of our relationships, especially sexually.
55:02 Speaker 00 Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut, our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
55:39 Speaker 01 I'm Josh Mucchio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
55:50 Speaker 03 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
55:55 Speaker 01 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.
56:05 Speaker 07 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
56:10 Speaker 01 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
56:13 Speaker 02 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
56:16 Speaker 07 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
56:23 Speaker 01 And dairy?
56:25 Speaker 02 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
56:27 Speaker 01 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine. Stonefire Knan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery charred flatbread for any meal.
56:40 Speaker 03 I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken. Stonefire Knan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap. I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that guy okay? I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste. Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help? You can share Stonefire Knan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.
57:01 Speaker 01 Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we gnaw.
Previous I Told My Friend I Was in Love with Her, Then She Told Everyone Next I Have a Crush on a Coworker Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated