I'm Keeping the Baby...Now What?

They had a whirlwind romance, and he spun a tale of their future to come—marriage, kids, a life together. He's in his mid-forties, and she is in her late thirties, and so after only three months together, she is pregnant, and they have broken up. Now, Esther meets her the month after their breakup and tries to help her illuminate a path forward. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  I met this guy five months ago. We fell in love. Like, I really took my time to get to know him because he was dating around quite a bit and never having very long-term relationships.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, so for the first time in his life, he is 46 years old, he asked me to be his girlfriend and to be official. Quite early in the relationship, he told me that he knew I was the love of his life and the woman of his life. And I felt the same way about him, that he is really my guy. Quite soon, he started to push for having sex without protection, for trying to have a baby. And maybe for giving you some background information, I had really bad results when trying to do egg freezing. So I was aware that I might have trouble falling pregnant. But what happened was like, we immediately fell pregnant and were really happy about this. Quite shocked as well, but very happy.

• 1:07Speaker 00

  I really would love to become a mom and I'm 37 years old and my partner as well, he loves kids and always wanted to have a family, he just never was in a rush to do so. Quite soon after this, or parallel to this, a journey started where like a few unfortunate events kind of came together. So my business partner, he really started to have a very toxic kind of way of talking to me in the office. And it all escalated and in the end, he kicked me out of my own company and this was really a hard blow for me as well to deal with.

• 1:47Speaker 00

  So, long story short, I had a really bad month last month and everything kind of accumulated to the point where I was really not well in terms of me struggling with myself and nagging about all the small things that my boyfriend did wrong. So everything was quite exhausting for a month now. And last weekend, we decided to go on a little trip to Greece and we had a really good time. We were very much in love, but also the topic of marriage came up. For me, it was a natural thing that we would get married before the child arrives. And this weekend, he was like, not sure anymore if he could do that. So for me, it was quite shocking that he said, let's have the baby.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  And then maybe in one or two years, we can still see if we want to get married when we know each other better. And I was like shocked because I thought like, we should know each other enough by now to decide to have kids. So that was really hurtful for me. I was quite emotional. And he said he will think about it and discuss it with his lawyers as well. I started to, yeah, just consider if it's smart to have a baby together now that we're not even sure about each other anymore. Or at least he's not sure about me anymore. There is three days left to decide, but I think I'm firm in my decision that I want to keep it despite all the circumstances. I'm very struggling on how to approach him. What do I do? How to respond?

• 3:17Speaker 00

  How to tell him my decision to keep the child? And how to deal with him and his emotions and my emotions? And how to open up the conversation to be constructive, to find for solutions, maybe to give us another chance? And if that's not possible, to at least be friends and having a good relationship with each other for the sake of this kid that's going to come to the world.

• 3:47Speaker 01

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• 4:15Speaker 02

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• 4:47Esther Perel?

  So let me ask you.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:49Esther Perel?

  What's the state of the baby? And what's the state of the relationship? And what's the state of the individuals?

• 4:55Speaker 04

  There is no relationship at all.

• 4:57Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 4:59Speaker 04

  So when he sent me this lawyer letter, that was really harsh for me because I felt like now we're not a team anymore. He clearly ended it and he doesn't want to talk about it. So it's now up to me myself if I wanna like do it by myself or not.

• 5:16Esther Perel?

  So he wrote you a letter that stated that he was relinquishing any paternity rights and that this was your unilateral decision and that this would be your child and he would excuse himself of any obligation towards this child? And he sent that to a lawyer? Is that what happened?

• 5:36Speaker 04

  He sent a copy to a lawyer and he wrote that he cannot ever imagine to have a future with me anymore. And that's why he supports to have a termination of the pregnancy and that it would not be fair for the kids to get into the world like that. And if I still decided to keep it, he would only pay the minimum. But it's not about the money. So I don't care about that part. It's just he really wanted to make very clear, I think, that he was not having, like he doesn't want the kid.

• 6:11Esther Perel?

  He doesn't want the child? Or he won't recognize the child? Or he won't be a father to the child? Or he won't care for the child? There's a lot of different levels here.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  I think all of them. I'm not sure legally what's possible, what's not. And I don't even know at that stage if I want to force him, if that's legally possible or if I just want to do it by myself. I just then knew I had to take this decision by myself.

• 6:39Esther Perel?

  Tell me about the decision.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  I was really scared. It was very scary to felt up doing this by myself. And at the same time, I felt this baby growing for three months inside me. I understood something was happening in my body. I could see a little bump forming. So in the end, like my parents said, they were retired now and live in our way. They can support me. But I'm strong enough that I could do it by myself. In the end, I just, I just couldn't terminate it, so I decided to keep it.

• 7:16Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 7:18Speaker 04

  And then I texted him that I made up my decision, my mind about it, and, and that it's a girl. We learned that that day as well. Um, that I'm very sorry how everything escalated a week earlier and that I'm very sorry. He felt so pressured and that I'm very sorry we had such a bad month. And then the next day, he wanted to have a chat, so I kind of knew. Because it was one day prior to this window closing of having a termination, I knew he wanted to kind of convince me again of having an abortion. And then we met and he didn't wanna have a hug to say hi and he was very cold and very.

• 8:02Speaker 04

  Well, he, he, he really pressured me and he wanted to scare me that how, how I would be like a single mom and it would be hard for me to find love again and all of that stuff and how unfair it is towards the kid, towards me, towards him. And when that strategy didn't work, he said, like, if you really love me, if you terminate the pregnancy, because then we can have another chance with our relationship, we can try to build up our relationship again. Like, I felt like that was like a manipulation, so I did not really react to this. And then he went back to threatening me, but like, we will have like a years of lawyer fights.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  And I was like, why, I don't want anything from you. And he was like, yeah, but still we will not have a relationship and I will not accept the child. And he was really angry and really cold and, yeah.

• 8:58Esther Perel?

  But in effect, each of you, I mean, this was a very deci- difficult decision for you to make and to make in such a completely different context from what it, from how the child had been conceived, let's put it like that. And the, the sad part here is that each of you has felt completely manipulated by the other.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 9:22Esther Perel?

  I mean, you know, this supposedly beautiful nascent love story unraveled in super speed by two people who feel that they were tricked by the other. What I'm not sure I understand is.

• 9:39Esther Perel?

  How did it switch for him? From "let's have a baby together" to "I don't"? Because you kind of say "I had a tough month", but that doesn't really... A tough month doesn't create that kind of consequence. So what happened there?

• 9:58Speaker 04

  So I think a big part plays that he's very used to be in control. He's very used to always have the last say in things and to take decisions actively. So I think he feels absolutely scared now that he was not in control of the situation anymore. Even though he said, like, "In the end, it's your decision", while we were still together in this. And like, he was comforting me when I was sad that he said he doesn't want to marry me now. He was still comforting me and we were kind of together in this and together having to decide about this. So at that stage, I did not realize that yet.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  And the next day, when he assumed we're having an abortion, and that really scared me because for me that day, I was already thinking like, "No, I could never. Like, I already love this kid. It was made on purpose and we wanted this." And it was such a miracle that it even happened. So I probably can't terminate the pregnancy.

• 11:07Esther Perel?

  And even if he was not a person used to be in charge and in control,

• 11:15Esther Perel?

  you were making a decision that de facto had the power to keep him connected to you for the rest of his life in a way that he was not participating in the decision.

• 11:26Speaker 04

  And I think first, it was even the opposite. Like, when he realized that I got unsure if we can keep the baby, I think that's when he shifted, where he lost control, which made him build the wall up and be like, "Okay, so I take this decision. We're not having the baby." So I think it even happened because I started to doubt this.

• 11:50Esther Perel?

  How much have you shared of this with the people that are close to you? Who knows?

• 11:57Speaker 04

  I I share with my family, with my friends, like I have a lot of good people around me that really support me well.

• 12:05Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, uh huh. Because you may not have your child with your partner, but that doesn't mean that you have your child alone.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:18Esther Perel?

  So if you're not gonna have your child in the context of a monogamous, exclusive, heterosexual, romantic relationship, that doesn't mean that on the other side, you, there is only, I have the child by myself. It's going to mean that you have to create a different set of ideas and realities about other ways to have a child outside of this context and this narrative that you had. You're married and you have a child and you, you know, here you're gonna have a child that is going to potentially be more part of a larger community rather than a single marriage.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 13:02Esther Perel?

  At least for now.

• 13:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. What I, what I struggle with so much is like, nothing terrible happened, nobody cheated on no one, nobody lied, nobody stole, like we just had a tough month and a big fight and that was it. So I don't see why we need to be so rude to each other, why we need to completely end conversation with each other, like if nothing else, how could we, how could I convince him that like at least a friendship should be possible for the sake of this little girl that that should have a relationship to her father as well? And he's a great guy, like I love him, but yeah, I just fear that

• 13:48Speaker 04

  I don't know what to do if, if there is things I could say that would like soften him.

• 13:55Esther Perel?

  How much have you told him the weird, what you've just told me?

• 14:00Speaker 04

  Ah, which part?

• 14:03Esther Perel?

  I'm confused.

• 14:06Esther Perel?

  What happened to us?

• 14:09Esther Perel?

  We had our first big argument. How did that completely derail us?

• 14:18Esther Perel?

  How did it even trigger in us, elicit in us such powerful reactions? Where we lost any trust that was just burgeoning between the two of us to begin with? How did I basically want to convince you? I think the word you've used many times here is to convince. You wanted to convince him that he should marry first. You wanted to convince him that now maybe he should stay friends with you. You want to convince him that he really wants to have a child because you know how much he loves children. That doesn't mean he wants to be in the situation that he is now currently in.

• 15:01Esther Perel?

  So I think from the convincing and the persuading and the changing his mind and the coaxing, we need to shift probably to something that is a little bit more of an offer and an invitation.

• 15:20Speaker 04

  I said that, like when he tried to convince me we should terminate, like I said, "Look, my decision is made and it's up to you. Like you're warmly welcome to participate in the pregnancy, in the kid's life, but you don't have to." And he said, "No, I don't want to."

• 15:40Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And you're welcome to invite him again. Just to say, when he writes to you, what does he write to you now?

• 15:49Speaker 04

  Well, only like more than a week ago now, he said again, "Just don't be selfish. It's not fair for the baby nor to us." And that he would come with me for having a termination. But he kind of knows that it's legally not even possible anymore. I don't know what this idea is there.

• 16:09Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 16:52Speaker 05

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• 17:22Speaker 06

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• 17:54Esther Perel?

  I think that the goal is not, "Do I reach out or do I leave him alone?" There's a lot of space in between. But at some point, there is a place to just say, "What happened to us?

• 18:11Esther Perel?

  How did we unravel so fast?"

• 18:16Esther Perel?

  Neither of us are actually in the situation that we were hoping for. We opened big dreams for each other

• 18:25Esther Perel?

  and we created a massive disillusion in forty-eight hours. What happened to each of us? Maybe what happened was not only between us, but also inside each of us.

• 18:41Esther Perel?

  I know that you see my decision as only selfish and careless and disregarding of you.

• 18:54Esther Perel?

  I don't, but I could see why you would.

• 18:59Esther Perel?

  We have life in front of us and a baby who is not born yet. And that gives us both the opportunity to also change some of our rigidity and our beliefs and our disappointments and our expectations that have turned into resentments. So that invites me and you, not just him, both of you.

• 19:28Esther Perel?

  Because right now, you are writing the story. It's also the story that you will one day tell your child.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  No, I only want to tell her that we made her with a lot of love.

• 19:43Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. Right. And then at some point, the plot thickens. I know that you're gonna want to tell a beautiful story.

• 19:55Esther Perel?

  But he is also a writer of that story.

• 20:02Esther Perel?

  So,

• 20:05Esther Perel?

  you know, it's a set of questions that you want to invite him with, a set of reflections, and not trying to convince him to cross the Rubicon over to your side.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:21Esther Perel?

  That your view is right, that your

• 20:27Esther Perel?

  fantasy is the beautiful one and that he should cross over. So, he may not change his mind, and that doesn't mean that he won't change his behavior.

• 20:42Esther Perel?

  He doesn't have to agree with you in order to become involved with the kid. He may continue to hold on to his conviction and still decide at some point to have a relationship to recognize the child. Before anything else, it's just simply the legal recognition too.

• 21:04Esther Perel?

  But I would invite more a set of questions and reflections than a list of persuasions.

• 21:13Speaker 04

  No, you're right.

• 21:15Esther Perel?

  And to say to him, I'm thinking that both of us will probably still have a load of different thoughts. And if there is room for us to have conversations about this, because at this point, the conversation was one thing only. It went from convincing you to have a kid, to take off the protections and to go for it, to then convincing you not to. And you convincing him, yes, to. He became very rigid, very stiff, very fast. Yes or no? Kid? No kid. My way? Your way.

• 21:59Esther Perel?

  And if you got into that so quickly around this, this was a fault line that was going to happen in your relationship, no matter what.

• 22:10Esther Perel?

  He may be somebody who likes to be in control, but you don't seem to be someone who doesn't stand up for herself either.

• 22:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:18Esther Perel?

  So if anything is to happen and if you are to continue to have either platonic co-parenting or friendship or a romantic relationship, in all three cases, it will demand that you have a different way of handling disagreements and differences. So what do you know about you and how you were handling it with him? Away from the specific topic and towards the process itself?

• 22:50Speaker 04

  So I know that... That I really struggled that last month to have constructive discussion in terms of sending messages that talked about my feelings rather than blaming. But because I was really not um well, I I did not have the strength anymore to convey those messages in a in a nice way, in a constructive way that would have helped him to to hear me.

• 23:16Esther Perel?

  So I would. Can you give me an example?

• 23:19Speaker 04

  I think I knew very well who he was in terms of his lifestyle. He loves to party, he loves to drink, he loves to take drugs sometimes. He told me much less than he actually did. So I started to complain about that. So I think I I was just complaining about many things. So he felt like he was not accepted anymore as a person. I think it's kind of true that I do have high expectations. But it definitely, like normally, in a normal state, I would also be very much picking my fights and knowing what things I could let go and what things I would complain about and how I would complain about them.

• 24:00Esther Perel?

  And this was after three months?

• 24:02Speaker 04

  Well, after four months, I would say, but three intense months.

• 24:06Esther Perel?

  Very fast.

• 24:07Speaker 04

  I think when something like this happens after two years, he probably knows better who I am. And I think now he's at the state of

• 24:17Speaker 04

  he just doesn't like me in general. She complains, she complains about everything I am, um which is very true.

• 24:24Esther Perel?

  Um hum. Is that true because of this

• 24:29Esther Perel?

  month that was so difficult for you? Or is that behavior that is familiar to you?

• 24:35Speaker 04

  As I said, I think I am someone who expects a lot. But that is something that's familiar to me. But I think usually I am much smarter about how to voice what I need and what I appreciate and I'm better at also filtering like what's worth it to ask for and what's not, like what I, what do I have to live with?

• 25:00Esther Perel?

  I'll ask it from his, from his point of view. So he ends up in a place where we barely met and she's already complaining, criticizing, nagging, chopping at me, wanting to change me. Um, I'm forty seven, I'm not a spring chicken. Um, and this person, you know, needs to understand that I come rather fully formed.

• 25:28Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 25:31Esther Perel?

  And part of you says, I'm smarter usually.

• 25:36Esther Perel?

  But this description of she's critical.

• 25:43Esther Perel?

  He's the first one to say that because you've had other relationships too.

• 25:47Speaker 04

  No, that's, that's, that's definitely true. So, so I am, yes, no, I am.

• 25:56Esther Perel?

  I, I, I honor it. I honor your honesty and there's a part of you that would like to put it more in the context of I had a hard month. But there's a part of you that knows. And the difference is that he saw it faster than others.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:17Esther Perel?

  And that maybe at other times when you're wiser or smoother or more, um, graceful about it, um, it takes them longer to identify it, but in fact, they land in the same place.

• 26:36Speaker 04

  It was never enough that somebody ended a relationship with me.

• 26:39Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:41Esther Perel?

  Right, so the difference is that he saw it fast. And having a child with you was associated with living with you. And living with you was associated with having to be under the microscope of you.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we complaining probably.

• 27:02Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 04

  He's triggered big time by that, I know that, yeah, from his family background as well.

• 27:08Esther Perel?

  From his family background, meaning?

• 27:12Speaker 04

  Like his mother and his sister are very dependent on his father and on him financially. And at the same time, like especially his mother would complain a lot about the father and also like had like they had a difficult time in their marriage as well, but like I think he he felt always that it was not good to stay in a relationship that was not healthy, especially being dependent on the man but still complaining about him. So I think that's a big trigger and a big fear of it. So he met me as well, I think that's that also added to it, like he met me as a successful businesswoman.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  And and yeah, when when shit went down with my business partner last month, I think that also it it's kind of feeding into his fear, what if she is now kind of only focusing on on the family and and she gets very dependent on me, which is not my plan, but I I think that's something that triggers him as well.

• 28:18Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm. And on the other side, for you?

• 28:23Speaker 04

  Um, my parents are divorced, but they were together for thirty years. And they're very like, they have a good friendship now, so for me, how I grew up is is like that was love, I was shocked when they actually split up. And fighting was kind of, it happens sometimes, it can be loud, it can be like you can say hurtful things sometimes, but you don't mean it because you know you love each other. But for me, I feel very safe and secure in like a relationship.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  And I feel like it's worth it to fight for it. And until you really don't have the same destination in life anymore, that's when you have to part ways. But until then, I would fight for it. And I would also like, of course, like my family, my friends would be like, he treated you so poorly now, why would you, like, you should be glad to have this person out of your life. But I'm like, I see like someone who's really, really scared and kind of cornered, like a hurt animal that's cornered and he's just fighting for his life to get back control and power. So I kind of see him that way. So I feel like it's not, it's not him treating me so poorly.

• 29:42Speaker 04

  It's just out of his fear and out of his impulses that he treats me like that.

• 29:48Esther Perel?

  You know, historically, men could impregnate women.

• 29:53Esther Perel?

  And women couldn't do anything about it.

• 29:57Esther Perel?

  Today, in the West, often, two people can decide to, they wanna have a kid. And one person, she can decide that she wants to keep it.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  It's not fair.

• 30:12Esther Perel?

  And

• 30:15Esther Perel?

  it's a power struggle.

• 30:19Esther Perel?

  It's a, who owns this decision? Is it a we? Is it an I?

• 30:26Speaker 04

  I thought it was.

• 30:27Esther Perel?

  Who owns this?

• 30:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:28Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 30:29Speaker 04

  And only at the moment where he ended everything, that was when the lawyer letter came. I realized now I'm by myself with this decision.

• 30:38Esther Perel?

  So he made the wrong move.

• 30:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, probably he would have gotten his way. And yeah, but to be honest, like, it would be very sad for me.

• 30:51Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 30:55Esther Perel?

  But does he see the sad part of you? Does he see the conflict that you felt about your daughter? Does he realise what you experienced physically? What you experienced relationally? Or does he think you said to him, "Fuck you"?

• 31:14Speaker 04

  No, I don't think he thinks that. I think he knows that I was in a struggle with that decision. But at the same time, I think he is so hurt now that it's not how he wanted, that the end result he wanted. That he's not able to see my pain in this. I think he's too busy with his own pain at the moment.

• 31:43Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 32:26Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colours or flavours. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 32:56Speaker 06

  When everything feels non-stop, movement becomes the pause. So give Lululemon this holiday season. Smooth, seamless running gear builds momentum through every mile.

• 33:08Speaker 06

  Comfortable workout styles clear the way for locked-in focus. And dynamic stretch expands presence through every pose.

• 33:20Speaker 06

  Give the feeling. Shop in-store and on lululemon.com.

• 33:27Esther Perel?

  So are you getting more clarity about how you want to speak or write to him?

• 33:36Speaker 04

  Yes. You mentioned a good a lot of good things. And when I'm not sure yet, it's how much space do I give him? Like, because right now, I feel when I still received this last message a bit more than a week ago, I think he has not really accepted the fact that this child is actually coming yet. So I'm not sure he's open to receive any message from me now. So what do you think, like, how much time should I let pass and then?

• 34:11Esther Perel?

  I have no idea.

• 34:14Esther Perel?

  I have no idea in terms of time. I think that the main thing is that your goal is not for him to accept. He may accept in months, he may accept in years, he may not.

• 34:31Esther Perel?

  That is not the goal. If at all, the goal is to maintain a thread.

• 34:39Speaker 04

  But do you think I should let him know when I have, like, doctor's appointments?

• 34:43Esther Perel?

  No.

• 34:43Speaker 04

  No.

• 34:44Esther Perel?

  No. You can ask, you can tell him, "I understand you want nothing to do with it.

• 34:52Esther Perel?

  If you choose to, just let me know. I will respect your wishes. If they change, because I don't expect that we are always staying in the same spot and that things may evolve, do know that you can just let me know. There will not be a price to pay. There will not be accumulated resentments. I will simply inform you."

• 35:22Esther Perel?

  If you want, I will inform you just when she's born, so that you know. If you choose not to be informed, I will honor that too. But know that I understand that our thoughts and our feelings evolve, and I want to keep that door open. This is not about do I wait six weeks or two months or

• 35:47Esther Perel?

  the next doctor's appointment, no. Especially that you decided to carry this without him, that doesn't mean alone, it just means without him. I want that, I want to reiterate that. So, you will go to the doctor with the other support systems that you're gonna put in place.

• 36:11Esther Perel?

  And

• 36:13Esther Perel?

  the main thing is the door stays open.

• 36:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  No, I'm not mad at him. I, I'm very sad about what happened. And I don't understand how it could change the drastically within, like really 24 hours of us being a team and having to take a very hard decision together to be like by ourselves and one thing is impossible.

• 36:40Esther Perel?

  Because it may have had less to do, I mean, that's a thought, it's not an answer, but it may have had less to do with children and marriage and all of that than it had to do with the immediate switching from when we are together, we are one, we agree, we are united. But when we think differently,

• 37:09Esther Perel?

  we instantly clash.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:13Esther Perel?

  And it may have had more to do with your criticism and his sensitivity to it, his reaction to you with the emotional intensity that lives inside of him from his own history and your emotional intensity that lives inside of you from your history. Those two clashed and decided on the spot. You either are on my side or I want none of it.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, true.

• 37:50Esther Perel?

  And each of you had a voice inside of you that reacted from the same place. All or nothing.

• 38:00Speaker 04

  I'm here, yeah.

• 38:01Esther Perel?

  My way or no way.

• 38:05Speaker 04

  That's so sad. Because now, of course, I regret that I had this strong urge of marriage. Because now I'm like, yeah. I'm like, I would have rather having him by my side without marriage than not at all, right?

• 38:29Esther Perel?

  Have you said that?

• 38:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, but too late. Only when we had the discussion about them. Like when he wanted to meet me to talk me into having a termination. Like, but when I said, look, I do regret what I said. Like, I do see it differently now.

• 38:52Esther Perel?

  You may want to repeat it one more time.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:57Esther Perel?

  For some people, it's very hard to hold both at the same time. I love certain things and I profoundly dislike others. For some people, it's all or nothing. It's love or hate.

• 39:15Esther Perel?

  It's with you or not.

• 39:17Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:18Esther Perel?

  And that demands revisionism and rewriting of the story.

• 39:21Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know, this part, like, you're totally right, I can't be critical. Um, but at the same time, I think,

• 39:32Speaker 04

  how could I have, how could I have this done better? Because I think it was necessary that we would negotiate certain

• 39:42Speaker 04

  terms of our relationship that were-

• 39:44Esther Perel?

  Because to state your needs with more personal responsibility and agency is to ask for what you want instead of to state what the other isn't doing. That's number one.

• 40:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:01Esther Perel?

  But number two is for him to hear what you want

• 40:07Esther Perel?

  and not just to hear it as, "I'm not good enough."

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:12Esther Perel?

  So each person carries a piece of this.

• 40:14Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:15Esther Perel?

  And number three is it's perfectly fine to negotiate, but it doesn't mean much if people don't hear each other and don't respond respectfully and empathically to what the other person is asking for. There's nothing gained from just stating, "This is what I want." If you have somebody on the other side saying, "Yeah, but this is what I want." Or if the other person says, you know, "But what you want isn't reasonable to want." "Or you shouldn't want this thing." "Or why do you want this thing?" Or, so the process is more important than the actual rules you're negotiating.

• 40:52Speaker 04

  True.

• 40:53Esther Perel?

  If the process is not in place, it doesn't matter if you're negotiating green peace in South Korea or the boundaries of your relationship.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:04Esther Perel?

  And when two people get into this kind of a stalemate within a few months, it is not what existed between the two of them that brought this out. It's what each of them brought to each other.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  True, yeah.

• 41:20Esther Perel?

  That's what makes the speed.

• 41:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:24Esther Perel?

  Will you let me know how things evolve?

• 41:27Speaker 04

  I would love to, yeah.

• 41:29Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 41:30Esther Perel?

  Great, great. Thank you so much.

• 41:32Speaker 04

  Thank you, Esther.

• 41:33Esther Perel?

  Bye-bye.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  Bye.

• 41:42Speaker 07

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

• 42:27Speaker 07

  Are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.

• 42:47Speaker 01

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