Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel I Can Break up with Him But I'm Still Stuck With Myself About this episode Esther talks with a woman who is contemplating ending her five-year long-distance relationship. She reflects on avoidant behavior, stemming from a fear of intimacy and rejection, and the complex dynamics of her family background. Esther helps her confront these deeply rooted fears, encouraging her to vocalize her needs and to realize that not everything negative is about her. The conversation opens up pathways for the woman to seek closeness and be seen, ultimately aiming to break free from a life defined by fear and distance.
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 I'm thirty-seven, about to be thirty-eight, actually, in a few days. And I have been in a long-distance relationship for the last five years of my life. And I think it's time to end it. And my partner is very loving, he's very caring.
0:21 Speaker 00 I feel like a vacation AI girlfriend. And his perception of time is different to mine. He has ADHD, and he has the privilege of not having to worry about biological clock or... And his proposal for me to move to America is not supported by a plan or by... He lives in a cabin, he works a part-time university job. So not by a structure that would support me for the time that I would need to settle. I am Ukrainian. I live in Bangladesh. I've lived here for most of my life. My parents moved here when I was in elementary school, and I made it my home. It's very jarring for me to imagine moving again.
1:05 Speaker 00 And besides that, I have a thriving life here. I have a community, I'm an artist, I'm an activist. I've, you know, I... I love it. For me to leave wouldn't mean to leave everything I've built. And I don't know if I would be able to come back because of visas and things like that. And my home country is at war. So the proposal is very vague. And my trust is gone. And... And so is time. Time is gone. And I regret that I didn't clock it earlier. And my question is, how do I stop doing this? Because I fear that I consented
1:48 Speaker 00 to being loved at a distance because of something deeper inside me. And this fear of being truly seen. I don't want that fear to dominate my life. And I don't want to live like that anymore.
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3:24 Esther Perel? So, the question is, how do I allow someone to love me close up? Or how do I end this relationship, which you seem to be quite clear and determined about? That's the first question. Good. So you didn't take the out. That's very good.
3:50 Esther Perel? Tell me more, because this is something you've thought about, and you have insight on, and I'm going to meet you where you are.
4:03 Speaker 00 I think this was convenient because it allowed me to be
4:10 Speaker 00 to be really unchallenged. And also because we would only spend time together, you know, once or twice a year and everything else was online. There were no big fights. There were no big confrontations.
4:28 Speaker 00 And everything could just like slide. It's not the first relationship that I've done this in or have chosen for this kind of ease of of being.
4:43 Esther Perel? Tell me what you mean by ease of being.
4:46 Speaker 00 I think I'm really scared of entwining or like being in a relationship with a man who I know can reject me. So I involve myself in relationships where I know I am an adventure or like I am like the thing that renovates their lives.
5:07 Speaker 00 And they feel seen for the first time in a long time.
5:12 Speaker 00 And that gives me the upper hand. And then I can just sit back and not be seen. I fear if I entered into a match
5:26 Speaker 00 of a different kind, I wouldn't win. And then I think deeply I'm scared of that and I don't want to be scared of that anymore. And I don't know how to undo that rejection.
5:40 Speaker 00 My parents got divorced. My dad left. It was like a very complex divorce between them. But I don't want to also attach myself to that.
5:52 Esther Perel? To that meaning my fear or the story of my parents?
5:57 Speaker 00 The story of my parents. Yeah.
6:02 Esther Perel? That fear. Can we meet it for a moment? And just have a brief chat with it? Because it speaks to you. And it's it's a conversation that you've had many times.
6:20 Speaker 00 It's a conversation I feel like I'm hearing for the first time, clearly. And maybe it's good that it's a long-distance relationship because the space is already there. Whereas in the previous relationships, there would still be the presence of a person, so I'd be distracted, I'd be like, I'd allow it to go on. And then I'd need another person to come in and break me out of that relationship. But here, I can't say that there's another person, it's just, it's just I can't, I can't do this anymore. I've just run out of the ability to pretend that this is enough. Or, I wasn't always pretending, but this is not enough.
7:04 Speaker 00 I want to be seen, very much so.
7:09 Esther Perel? Say that again.
7:10 Speaker 00 I want to be seen.
7:13 Esther Perel? Now take it in.
7:21 Esther Perel? Now you can open your chest and make space for it inside.
7:34 Speaker 00 Because it turns out that all this time, I was actually alone, and not just in time and space, deeply alone.
7:46 Esther Perel? And that too, you're saying, for the first time, loud and clear?
7:52 Speaker 00 It's the first time I'm not allowing myself to be distracted from it.
8:00 Esther Perel? So you know
8:04 Esther Perel? the mechanics, you know the text. I meet a guy, I make sure that he can't have too much of an effect on me. I set up a whole protection strategy. I either reduce their importance by bringing in someone else, or reduce their importance by them being far away, so there is no daily life together. And then there is the subtext. The subtext is what you're giving voice to now. There's a fear that's been trying to...
8:46 Esther Perel? Somehow protect you. If they're already far, they can't leave. If they let your biological clock unfold, which means if you let your biological clock unfold, you come to a point where you can say, "I'm not meeting here." A set of different needs for life that I would like for us to share together. What else does it say to you?
9:14 Speaker 00 I think I'm actually scared of men.
9:21 Esther Perel? I'm scared of men. What?
9:24 Speaker 00 I'm scared of involving myself with, or like being in the in the control or like the power of of a relationship where the man is somehow dominating me in any way. And that's why I always choose men who are much softer and less ambitious. And then in the end, that's what also breaks the relationship because I can't, I stop seeing them as capable.
9:59 Speaker 00 And my fathers are both like super masculine, like alpha.
10:07 Speaker 00 If we had to use that term, I don't know what else to use, but they're like, one is a Ukrainian and one is an Italian, but they're both like prototypes. And I think I've avoided that kind of energy for the most of my relationship history. But in the end...
10:29 Esther Perel? Because?
10:30 Speaker 00 Because I've seen them hurt my mom and my my relationship with both of them is good now. It's better than when I was a child, definitely. My father still hates my mother very deeply and makes the mistake of vocalizing it, which damages our relationship. My stepfather is a philandering Italian. I have a misanthrope and then my stepfather is a very much a people-loving person. So I have these prototypes. And I've just completely avoided anything that looked, felt, or acted like them.
11:15 Speaker 00 And...
11:17 Esther Perel? May I ask you?
11:19 Speaker 00 Yeah.
11:20 Esther Perel? I have a sense that you have focused on the man and have said, "I don't, I won't be with any guy who's like that."
11:30 Esther Perel? That's the text. But I wonder if the subtext is, "I won't be like my mom, and I won't allow anyone to have that kind of power over me that they have over her because of how much she does not protect herself." Are you trying to avoid them? Or are you trying to avoid being like her? And therefore, you're focused on changing their profile?
11:59 Speaker 00 I think all of it. And like, when I enter a happy family, it's so alien. And it's so nice. Not that mine isn't, again, like my, my mom and my stepdad, they have a, living apart together, meeting once a year, also long distance. So in a sense, yeah, there's also like, I have a rejected femininity in me as well. And I live in a very conservative society where the gender dynamics are quite complex. So a bit of both to answer your question.
12:43 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
12:58 Speaker 02 At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.
13:27 Speaker 04 Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.
13:29 Speaker 05 Witness the beginning of the revolution.
13:31 Speaker 04 Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.
13:34 Speaker 05 Film for IMAX.
13:36 Speaker 04 Make them remember you.
13:38 Speaker 05 The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.
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14:16 Esther Perel? When the fear talks with you, are you more in touch with the dominance of the men? Or with the fragility and the need or the dependency of your mom? Because if you're invisible, what is invisible? Your need for them?
14:35 Speaker 00 My need? I've never been able to vocalize the need.
14:39 Esther Perel? Right, because if you express your need, you give them power. Because it says, "I need you, and if I need you, you have power over me." In this logic, this is not a truth in and of itself, but it is a deep emotional truth for you. And when you finally say out loud, "I want to be seen, and I want this to remain the script of my life, the relational script of my life, I want to be able to need what? What are all the needs that you have had to hide and to suppress?
15:14 Speaker 00 I have a fear that I won't be loved for who I am, if I speak my mind, or if I act how I am. So my need is for somebody to encourage that and to understand that that is like, even though I come off, you know, I lead a team, I function fine, but there's a lot of things that I need just encouragement with. And I don't ask, I can never ask for things. Because I feel like my needs are so specific or so...
15:53 Speaker 00 Maybe not, not easily understood. I just keep them to myself and then it's so rare that somebody sees it. Like I've had that happen to me maybe twice, that somebody preempts my needs. So I need that encouragement and that being held.
16:14 Esther Perel? And when I don't, when I don't express it, do I remember I have it?
16:20 Speaker 00 Oh, I'm very good not remembering.
16:23 Esther Perel? So I forget myself.
16:26 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
16:27 Esther Perel? And then I make myself completely attentive to the other people's needs.
16:33 Speaker 00 All the time.
16:34 Esther Perel? And then that comes with resentment or deprivation or relief or other things.
16:43 Speaker 00 Um, there's sometimes a bit of resentment. I can't say that that's the reaction. There's usually either a depression or, um, yeah, the relief. I mean, now I try to not keep myself so busy so that I can just sit with all this.
17:00 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, mm hmm.
17:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, not trying to distract myself with like a million other people's needs. Uh, which I love doing, like I'm a community person, but at some point that community activism becomes like neurotic.
17:12 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, mm hmm. If the part of you that says I wanna be seen speaks with the part of you that says, but I'm afraid, makes me too vulnerable, makes me too much a subject of, to rejection. What would that conversation be like?
17:33 Speaker 00 I guess, growing up for a very long time, uh, feedback from parents and from everybody around, and mostly in the family, was very harsh and it was very like critical. And that was their language. Um, so my first response to any kind of criticism or any kind of just correction, even though it comes from a good place, is very much, uh, painful. I, uh, I don't take it constructively. I need time and.
18:08 Esther Perel? And I react defensively or I react.
18:14 Esther Perel? Magnifying one criticism as if the whole person is made to feel like there's something wrong with me, or I react by retaliation, what about you? Or how does this?
18:28 Speaker 00 When I got, when I got the email that this was 10 minutes late, I figured it was gonna be cancelled, because I was like, okay, so I heard my question now. And she's like, this is great, I don't want to do this. So it's, it's magnified, and then, of course, there's some defensiveness. I have gotten significantly better with this at work.
18:50 Esther Perel? So you get a message that says I'll be a few minutes late, and you instantly turn it into now she's going to be utterly uninterested, and this is never gonna happen.
19:10 Esther Perel? In effect, by sending this request, you put out a need. You have just put into practice the very thing we're talking about. So you said, here is my need, I would like to speak with you, here's the dilemma that I face, I'm at a transition point, and I have a level of clarity I haven't had or haven't allowed myself, and I need to bolster it. And then what happens?
19:39 Speaker 00 I, I feel great, gratitude and relief. There's this, a sense of greater faith in the moment, because when you asked me at the beginning if the question is whether I'm sure that the relationship is over, or, or I wanna focus on my deeper question, and this is giving me that sense of...
20:05 Speaker 00 Confident.
20:07 Esther Perel? I went somewhere else. I'm curious if you would go back there with me.
20:13 Speaker 00 Okay.
20:14 Esther Perel? You put out your need and then you imagined. That was a big mistake. She'll never wanna talk to me. Now that she heard the question, I hadn't heard anything, by the way. But even if I had, that doesn't change anything. Once you get a response, you have the response. We will meet with you, I will meet with you. But it's a beautiful opportunity for you because you made yourself visible. And then you imagined, nothing good can come out of it.
20:48 Speaker 00 It's there.
20:50 Esther Perel? Uh huh. Which is why I bring us back here because we can talk about the fear and the abstract. Or we can look at it as it just happened between you and I. I'm a stranger, you meet me one hour, we'll never meet again. It's like being at a hairdresser. There's something about talking to the total stranger. But let me ask you, how hard was it to send in the question?
21:14 Speaker 00 Not hard.
21:15 Esther Perel? Because you thought nobody would see it? Or because you hoped somebody would see it?
21:20 Speaker 00 The second.
21:22 Esther Perel? Okay. I'm very glad you did. All right, tell me more.
21:28 Esther Perel? The fear is sitting right here next to you. Or one embodiment of this fear.
21:34 Speaker 00 It's absolutely with everything. And of course, like now, in the digital, it's much easier. Because it's like, there's ways that somebody doesn't reply, or there's ways that it's auto replies. Or like when you're applying for things, it's okay to just... But then when you get one step closer, and then there's a possibility of rejection. It's so crippling.
21:56 Esther Perel? The other guys, twice they were able to preempt or to see without you having to say. But the question is, how do you let it be known? And since you say it's with everybody, it's probably not just men.
22:14 Speaker 00 I find my female friendships very sensitive and most very gratifying.
22:21 Esther Perel? Beautiful.
22:22 Speaker 00 And I allow myself to, like, there's no danger so much for me.
22:27 Esther Perel? Do you have male friends?
22:28 Speaker 00 Uh, a few. Most of them I've had relationships with.
22:33 Esther Perel? My sense is that some of our core emotional challenges around trust, around closeness, around intimacy, around dependability, there is a particular resonance that only defines itself in the similarity between the original relationship we had with our caregivers or parents and our romantic relationships. Friendships somehow manage to elude these emotional challenges. And I've never fully, fully been able to answer why in a very, in a satisfying way.
23:16 Esther Perel? Makes sense, but there's some particular echo chamber between those men who had such powerful influence over my mother
23:31 Esther Perel? and how I watched this and I said, "Not me." And so I have a choice between changing the type of men in order not to feel what my mother felt or changing me inside in order not to feel what my mother felt. Because the men come and go, and she was the one that stayed. Maybe sometimes fraught, maybe sometimes quite imperfect, but she was the one that stayed. When I mean stayed, it doesn't mean that she was, I don't know anything about her. So I, I don't know for sure if she was present, active, but, but she was the one that you could allow yourself to have any of these needs with.
24:15 Esther Perel? Whereas with the fathers, you made sure that those needs were tucked aside.
24:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
24:22 Esther Perel? Is this somewhat it? I mean, just so I know if I'm in.
24:26 Speaker 00 It's very much it, but with her, like, because she stayed but there, I became so difficult that at one point she had to let me go. And until recently, I couldn't like, like, my brother is in his twenties, he'll still sleep with mom when he comes to visit. I can't, I I can't even like, hugging is difficult for me with her. And I know, like, my mom loves me, like, she she had to do what she had to do when I was seventeen because I was just raging and she didn't know how to control me. You know, then my little brother, so the whole house was kind of like tense because I was this
25:10 Speaker 00 out of control teenager. So I understand her decision.
25:14 Esther Perel? What were you raging at, by the way?
25:16 Speaker 00 Um, being misunderstood, um, not being listened to, not being seen. Um, I went to a school that had different values from the values at home. When I would come home, it would clash. I'd get into fights with my stepdad. I I got into a very difficult relationship. Um, it was a much older man. I was out of control.
25:43 Esther Perel? And when you say, I can't even hug her, it's the the the felt sense is, I get in touch with?
25:54 Speaker 00 The little me.
25:56 Esther Perel? And?
25:57 Speaker 00 And all of that, like, hurt, not being able to protect her or hurting her so much. Also, all that guilt.
26:08 Esther Perel? There was a lot going on. Sometimes when you've lived like this, you take it at face value as if this is how it should be.
26:20 Speaker 00 I know it shouldn't anymore. I I don't wanna live in a world where, like, just because my coffee is five minutes late, I think the barista, they probably thinks that I hear stupid and like, I don't deserve hot coffee. I will live in a different world. And I know I can feel it, it's there.
26:44 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.
26:55 Speaker 02 At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are, with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters, so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.
27:24 Speaker 04 Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.
27:26 Speaker 05 Witness the beginning of the revolution.
27:29 Speaker 04 Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from Star.
27:32 Speaker 05 Filmed for IMAX.
27:33 Speaker 04 Make them remember you.
27:36 Speaker 05 The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.
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28:12 Esther Perel? The irony is that in all these scenarios, you are the protagonist. You are at the center of the action. And you are at the center of a negative action. Imagine that the barista may have received a difficult phone call, or somebody just told the barista that their car was parked in the wrong place, or the water just spilled, or Esther had a delay on the subway, or maybe she had a technical issue.
28:57 Esther Perel? Meaning that all these things have nothing to do with you.
29:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:02 Esther Perel? But in your construction of reality, it can only have something to do with you. It must be about you and it must be about something negative about you. And it makes me wanna say something a little, you know, you are very important, but you're not that important. Sometimes. So imagine that the part of you that wants to be seen says to the fear, "It's not about you."
29:40 Esther Perel? And sometimes, we are strange creatures. We would rather be at the center of a bad plot than not be included in the plot at all.
29:50 Esther Perel? Yes, you say. You're shaking your head.
29:54 Speaker 00 Yes, it's absurd.
29:58 Esther Perel? Yes, what?
29:59 Speaker 00 It's absurd to live in this, like, construction of reality.
30:06 Esther Perel? How do you imagine taking any of what we're saying with you after this conversation?
30:15 Esther Perel? What would stay and what would you want to
30:20 Esther Perel? hold on to?
30:22 Speaker 00 I live in a city with so much, so much pain and grief and, like, everywhere, all the time. I know I didn't cause it, but even that, like, I managed to construct all these things. But I think what I'm taking away is to recognize it and to really hold it as separate from myself, this tendency, so that I can make a distance from it and, like, start seeing things from a different point of view. But also to just let go of that negativity. And even if there is negativity, like, why do I have to make it a part of myself so that I...
31:04 Speaker 00 I needed to define myself, or I needed to distract myself, but.
31:09 Esther Perel? And it seeps into your activism?
31:12 Speaker 00 I mean, for sure, I'm not as courageous as I as I would be, or I'm not as vocal, not not as courageous. I just don't live around the front, I'm always in the back. I'm afraid of being criticized for white privilege, I'm afraid of being criticized for being a foreign, even though like all these things I can defend.
31:33 Speaker 00 I avoid the spotlight, and actually tomorrow I have to be in the spotlight for the first time in a long time. And and this is gonna help, because I don't have to fear about like what people are thinking so much. Worry more about what I'm saying.
31:47 Esther Perel? Uh huh. There's something very um alleviating in this sentence. I'm important, but I'm not that important. That everything that happens is explained around me and around things that are missing or in quote, wrong with me.
32:14 Speaker 00 That's very weird.
32:17 Esther Perel? It's I'm related to it, but it's not about me. And I can't explain to you why, but I have a feeling that there's a connection between this and the courage that it will require from you to be able to say, I would like this, I need this, I would enjoy that. Because if certain things don't come your way, it won't just be because you asked for too much, or because your needs are overwhelming, or because you don't deserve it. Maybe sometimes it will be because the person can't do it, or doesn't know how to do it,
33:02 Esther Perel? or can only do partially, but it's not about a flat-out rejection and a flat-out condemnation of you. It may not be about you. You're smiling.
33:17 Speaker 00 Because it sounds so simple and sweet.
33:23 Esther Perel? I don't think it's actually simple.
33:27 Esther Perel? But I think that I'm putting into words things that you have already circled around. That you think the coffee is five minutes late because you don't deserve the coffee. And that it doesn't help you to really think about the others. You think you're thinking all the time about the others, but in fact, when you live with that feeling of I am so alone, and not because the other person is geographically removed, but because I don't allow myself to be seen,
34:07 Esther Perel? I want you to first hold yourself so that you have a good grasp. And with your two hands, hold really around you. Because then you are with you, even if it comes through the tactile first. And from this place, you can ask for certain things.
34:30 Esther Perel? Thank you.
34:47 Speaker 08 This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, and could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
35:30 Speaker 08 And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Sol.
35:44 Speaker 02 At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are, with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters, so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich, together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.
36:14 Speaker 04 Welcome to the 50th Hunger Day.
36:16 Speaker 05 Witness the beginning of the revolution.
36:18 Speaker 04 Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.
36:21 Speaker 05 Filmed for IMAX.
36:22 Speaker 04 Make them remember you.
36:25 Speaker 05 The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.
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