Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel He Loves Her, His Family Rejects Her About this episode This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? She left her life, her family and her country for a man she met on Reddit. Their love is real, but his family has been hell.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.
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1:36 Esther Perel? They met on Reddit. Reddit is not a thing in Brazil. Like, no one knows about it. But I knew about it because I was reading an article about sex-starred marriages. Which was the fate that they were both in?
1:53 Speaker 03 I was just on the internet and saw a post. And I replied.
2:00 Esther Perel? I was like, huh, that's funny. And I replied back. Which led to a flirtation, which led to a relationship, which led to the dissolution of their marriages, which led to her moving to small-town, midwestern America to be with him and start an entire new life.
2:22 Speaker 04 I have two children under the age of ten. There's a lot of stress and anxiety that comes from dealing with my ex-wife.
2:33 Speaker 05 I never wanted to be a mom. I have this romantic idea that you must have loved someone so much to have kids. It's almost like I'm not as important.
2:45 Esther Perel? She left parents, twin sister, friends, career, language, and the beaches of Brazil.
2:54 Speaker 05 I wasn't really welcomed when I got here. Meeting his mom was one of the worst days of my life.
3:03 Speaker 04 I carry a lot of guilt that she gave up that and then came here and then I have this baggage.
3:09 Speaker 04 I don't want to disappoint my wife. I'm more happy than I've ever been.
3:23 Speaker 04 Before we had started talking, I had a lot of realizations about, you know, like I'm unhappy with my life and why would I want to spend half of my life unhappy? And I didn't want to live that way.
3:38 Esther Perel? Explain unhappy to me, because it's a very personal word, right?
3:43 Speaker 04 Sure. You know, me personally, I'm a very giving person. I like to provide for people, I like to do things. And I feel my ex-wife like to take. Like all these things just kept piling and piling and piling. And then there was nothing left to give anymore. And I was never giving any kind of refill.
4:06 Esther Perel? Was there some things in particular that you were hoping to receive?
4:14 Speaker 04 Everything that happened was what she wanted to do, how she wanted to do it. Whatever choices for our life were what she wanted. And then if I ever didn't do something she wanted, then I was failing the marriage. So it was this unbalanced, in my opinion, unbalanced relationship.
4:34 Esther Perel? Is it a shared opinion or is this your...?
4:37 Speaker 04 No, she didn't feel that way.
4:39 Esther Perel? What is her version?
4:41 Speaker 04 She feels that everything was amazing and I just up and left and disappeared.
4:45 Speaker 05 That was my fault.
4:49 Speaker 04 My family now sees I'm so much happier. It's completely different. I think that's really what turned around some of their perceptions and things. When I finally met her, I met her family and humanized her very much like she's not just this.
5:04 Esther Perel? They met her family.
5:05 Speaker 04 Yes.
5:06 Esther Perel? Your parents met your mother.
5:08 Speaker 04 My parents met her parents and her sister and nephew and like.
5:11 Esther Perel? You have one sister?
5:12 Speaker 05 Uh huh, a twin sister.
5:13 Esther Perel? Identical?
5:14 Speaker 05 Yes, the love of my life. It's hard to be so far from her, hurts me.
5:23 Speaker 05 But it's, it's part of the decision that we made. So I don't keep dwelling on it, but it hurts.
5:34 Esther Perel? So you gave up family, country, language, career?
5:43 Esther Perel? And friends?
5:44 Speaker 05 Yes.
5:45 Esther Perel? To come to, is it a small town?
5:50 Speaker 04 Yes.
5:51 Esther Perel? Small town, America?
5:52 Speaker 04 Uh huh, Midwest, yeah.
5:54 Speaker 05 Yes.
5:55 Esther Perel? For this one man?
5:56 Speaker 05 Yes.
5:56 Esther Perel? He better be, he better be.
6:01 Speaker 05 I am all in. That's why I'm here, all in.
6:07 Esther Perel? You know what I just thought? The giver found somebody who gave up for him everything she had.
6:20 Esther Perel? So for once, he doesn't have to worry that he's with a taker.
6:26 Speaker 04 And I know, she's a giver, I know she's a giver.
6:32 Speaker 04 And it's hard for me to take sometimes.
6:35 Esther Perel? And how was the conversation with your family or with your sister about leaving?
6:42 Speaker 05 They were really supportive and they saw how my, my first marriage was. What did they see? They saw that I was, I was putting up a show.
6:56 Speaker 05 So I had this perfect marriage. That even my friends are like, you guys are so perfect. We wanted to be like you. You are our like models. And people believed what they saw and what they saw wasn't true.
7:13 Esther Perel? And what were you hiding?
7:15 Speaker 05 I was hiding that I felt inferior. That I felt almost as it was a favor that he loved me.
7:27 Speaker 05 Like sex was non-existent because of him. And no one knew that. I was like, if he's my husband and he rejects me all the time and he's not even interested. I I have to be the problem.
7:44 Esther Perel? Did you have kids together?
7:46 Speaker 05 No, no, oof, no.
7:49 Esther Perel? Oof what?
7:51 Speaker 05 Well, oof because I I don't want to have children. I really didn't want to have kids with him because I was like, in his view, the sad one, the depressed one. I was like, how can I raise a child? I don't have emotional structure for that. I mean, sometimes I think about having children.
8:14 Esther Perel? One second, you just smiled.
8:17 Speaker 04 I I think her beliefs are based on the situation that she grew in. I think if her previous marriage was
8:29 Speaker 04 not so difficult on her, she might have had different views about having kids because she's really good with children. But I think she wanted to protect potential children from him.
8:42 Esther Perel? Do you ever talk about it for the two of you?
8:45 Speaker 04 We do.
8:46 Speaker 05 We do.
8:47 Esther Perel? Is that still possible?
8:50 Speaker 04 Maybe slight, but not not very.
8:51 Speaker 05 Yeah, I don't, I I think that now I have a different set of problems with having children. Because I can only think like.
9:02 Speaker 05 How about his kids now? Because it would be another children, like another child sharing daddy. And they are not with us all the time and the kid will be and then it's unfair. And then, like, I think, I don't know for sure, but I think things would be tougher with his ex-wife because of that. And then it's, he has kids already, so I don't know how nice and all.
9:30 Esther Perel? Because I think it's something he would wanna give you. Because he thinks that you didn't, because of the context that you were living in. And he thinks that he can give that to you. I'm ad-libbing, mister.
9:45 Speaker 04 I think that's pretty fair. I'm happy with just having two kids. And if she didn't want any children, that's, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm happy with the family as it is. Uh, I'm very much open to if she said to me, I would like to have kids, then I'm very open to that.
10:07 Esther Perel? No, but she won't, because she just gave you the set of rationalizations for why not. So the only way that she would is if you actually give it, offer it to her, countering her own self-sacrifice. It's a dance.
10:23 Speaker 04 Right.
10:24 Speaker 05 Yeah, but I, I.
10:25 Esther Perel? Not that I think you should or you shouldn't.
10:27 Speaker 05 No, no, I can't look at it.
10:29 Esther Perel? There is such a story here about who gives up and who gives.
10:33 Speaker 04 Yeah.
10:34 Speaker 05 Mm-hmm.
10:34 Esther Perel? You know, this is, this, this is a big set of themes in, in your relationship now and in your relationships before. And in a way, you gave up having children. Not only that you didn't want, you didn't necessarily have a deep, deep, deep yearning, which allowed you to then be more contextual about it, but you gave up on it. And he knows that.
10:59 Esther Perel? And since he can give, and he loves to give,
11:03 Esther Perel? he's okay as is. But if he senses the slightest desire in you, he will want you to not give up. I think that's a fair assessment, because he said that before.
11:16 Speaker 04 We've talked about it.
11:19 Esther Perel? It would be one thing that's entirely... I'm gonna say it like this, but for effect, not because it is. I was gonna say, it would be one thing that is entirely yours. Meaning, it would be one thing that is yours in a world where nothing is yours. Yes. Okay, in a country that's not yours, a language that's not yours, a family that's not yours, a small town that's not yours. And so, this symbol would become the one thing that is actually yours, to whom you would probably actually speak in Portuguese. And it actually would have a tremendous symbolic. And it would be something that he would share with you, that would be yours also, as in new and ours.
12:02 Esther Perel? Yeah, because I feel that deeply, that it's not mine. Right, so I wouldn't rush on the no. That doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, but that would be its symbolic meaning. There's lots of reasons to have children or not to have children. But symbolically, that is unmistakable. Yes.
12:28 Esther Perel? She has been so invested in all the things that she has given up in order to be with him, that I had to check on the topic of children. And interestingly, if she really wasn't interested, she probably would have just listened to me and said, "Yeah, but I'm not into it." But the fact that both of them are responding the way they do lets me know that this is not nearly as case closed as it initially appeared to be. So, as I listen to them, it occurs to me that we also need to explore the official marriage that was done in secret.
13:10 Speaker 04 We did not tell my family because at that time, things were not in a good place.
13:15 Esther Perel? Your family means your parents?
13:17 Speaker 04 My parents.
13:18 Speaker 05 His entire family. And your mom runs the show?
13:22 Speaker 04 Yeah, she does.
13:24 Esther Perel? And when you say things were not good with her? Because she didn't want you to be divorced?
13:31 Speaker 04 I think she would have been okay with the divorce. She, the way things got found out was...
13:36 Esther Perel? She didn't like this temptress?
13:38 Speaker 04 Correct.
13:39 Esther Perel? This Latin temptress who flew all the way
13:41 Speaker 04 Correct.
13:41 Esther Perel? From Brazil and stole you from your...
13:45 Speaker 04 Correct. That's very much how it went, yes.
13:49 Esther Perel? So the poor guy got snatched?
13:53 Speaker 04 And...
13:53 Esther Perel? By an adulterer?
13:55 Speaker 04 Yes, that's very much how it went.
13:57 Esther Perel? Is that the language?
13:59 Speaker 04 Yes.
13:59 Speaker 05 Oof, even worse.
14:01 Esther Perel? Go ahead.
14:04 Speaker 04 Even when, you know, like I would own my part of that responsibility, it's like, oh, but I hold women to a higher standard. And when I followed through and went and saw and visited before anything was done, then she was evil incarnate.
14:23 Esther Perel? Oh, it wasn't the fact that you went to visit her in Brazil, it's the fact that you allowed him to come?
14:30 Speaker 05 Yes.
14:31 Esther Perel? Yes.
14:32 Speaker 04 Even though I, you know, I know...
14:34 Esther Perel? Yes, but you are a man, so you don't have your head screwed up right on your shoulders. Then you need to put the limits on him. Because man will pursue woman whenever he sees her. And woman needs to make sure man doesn't do foolish things.
14:51 Speaker 05 And I, and I was probably so, I don't know, so wonderful, so sexual, so sexy or whatever, that we never met. And I was in a different hemisphere. And I did all that. So I carried
15:08 Speaker 04 A lot of importance.
15:09 Speaker 05 Like ninety-five percent of the...
15:12 Esther Perel? So you know what's interesting? In your first marriage, you have this false story about how everything looks so perfect. And in this marriage, you enter with a false story in which you are responsible for all the shit.
15:25 Speaker 05 Yes.
15:27 Esther Perel? But you are always living in false stories.
15:30 Speaker 05 And I cannot express the level of frustration that I have with how unfair things are towards me. I cannot forget the things that I've been called.
15:46 Esther Perel? What's the one that stung particularly?
15:49 Speaker 05 Homewrecker.
15:55 Esther Perel? This story of the man who follows the chant of the sirens, the double standards, the fact that he is the victim of her seductive powers, and she should have known better. She should not wreck his family. I mean, it does not elude me that homewrecker does generally not exist in the masculine.
16:23 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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18:09 Speaker 05 Or not saying my name.
18:11 Speaker 04 Yeah.
18:12 Speaker 05 They're like the other woman.
18:13 Speaker 04 In the beginning, she said the other woman.
18:15 Speaker 05 The other woman, which is as offensive as anything to me. Like, that's not me. Like, one of his family member. That was probably the...
18:29 Speaker 04 She was the...
18:30 Speaker 05 Really angry about it.
18:32 Speaker 04 Because she was close with my ex-wife.
18:34 Speaker 05 Yes. Who was that?
18:35 Speaker 04 My aunt.
18:36 Speaker 05 And she... She didn't talk to me. We were in the same room and she wouldn't talk to me. Like, not even acknowledge my presence. And then, finally, one day, she saw us together.
18:51 Speaker 04 We were at a wedding, yeah.
18:53 Speaker 05 Yeah. And we were dancing, hugging, kissing, like, just being playful. And I think she saw that and then, in the next day, she came to me and apologized. She hugged me and she said, "I'm sorry for everything that I said and I did. You're part of the family. I saw how happy he is and who you are, and I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Thanks for that. I really appreciate it. It's all good. We can... Let's move forward."
19:25 Speaker 05 But to me, that was like... Huge. Huge. I was like, "Wow." That meant a lot to me.
19:36 Speaker 05 But it makes me so upset.
19:41 Speaker 05 This is hard, because it's...
19:43 Speaker 04 I know.
19:44 Speaker 05 You know that. I don't have family. I feel vulnerable. And then people, they were attacking me.
19:54 Esther Perel? Have you ever said all of this to your mom?
19:59 Speaker 04 No.
20:00 Esther Perel? Why not?
20:02 Speaker 04 Because we didn't want to damage the progress we were making because things were getting better.
20:07 Esther Perel? So, what would happen if you actually conveyed in a very kind way like you know to do?
20:19 Speaker 04 If I were to guess, I would say that she would say that I thought she knew, you know, like that we've moved on or whatever.
20:27 Esther Perel? Yes, but reparative justice requires sometimes an overt acknowledgement.
20:32 Speaker 04 Sure.
20:34 Esther Perel? And then you would say, "Mom, there is something about you saying it to her the way that Aunt Such and Such did that would make a world of difference."
20:45 Speaker 04 I absolutely think she would apologize.
20:48 Esther Perel? So, you gotta go do this.
20:52 Speaker 04 I will.
20:55 Speaker 05 That makes me a little scared. Honestly.
21:00 Speaker 04 But what's the worst?
21:02 Speaker 05 Backtrack, backfire.
21:05 Speaker 04 And what?
21:07 Speaker 04 And then she gets...
21:08 Speaker 05 And then we do what we do. We move forward.
21:09 Speaker 04 We move forward because she gets to go home to her husband and live her life. And if she can't acknowledge it, then that's not our fault. That's her fault.
21:20 Speaker 04 Because it's worth doing if it will make you feel better.
21:25 Esther Perel? Even though what he says is really kind and loving, he is not doing this to make her feel better. He needs to do this because it is the right move in the triangle between him, his mother, and his wife. Where he doesn't let the wife do all the work for him in helping him individuate vis-à-vis his mother, but he actually confronts his mother as an adult son.
21:56 Esther Perel? And the other thing that he reminds me when he's talking here is a little bit like when you tell a child who's being bullied in class, you should go tell the teacher. And the child says to you, I don't want to go tell the teacher because then they're going to take revenge on me. And so the moment he says, I'm gonna go stand up for you, in fact, when he should say, I'm gonna go stand up for me, she instantly says to him, don't do it because I may bear the consequences. That is such an old triangle.
22:36 Speaker 04 If I told her, I think she would hear me. My mom and I are close.
22:43 Esther Perel? So how come you haven't done that? If you are close and if she would hear you. And if you know how your wife feels about it for the last two years. It's not like this is the first time she's telling you.
22:55 Speaker 04 For the same reason, the fear that we will go backwards.
22:58 Esther Perel? It depends how you say it. You would stop him? Oh, this is incredible.
23:05 Speaker 05 I think, maybe from now on, I wouldn't, but I think I would be so that I would not let him move because I am paralyzed.
23:18 Esther Perel? So that's the full meaning of when you say, I feel so vulnerable. It's like you leave a little bit on probation.
23:28 Speaker 05 I'm like slowly moving forward, but I still feel almost like a hostage in a way. I, I don't know, can I say this, can I say that? What if I say something wrong? Whenever they talk anything related to his ex-wife, I pretend that I'm deaf, that I'm not even there.
23:55 Esther Perel? But what you're saying is, I want him to stand up for me, but he shouldn't. Because if he does, I'm afraid it's gonna backfire on me.
24:05 Esther Perel? I'm on probation, I feel hostage, I feel that I'm constantly monitoring myself for as if I'm gonna be tripped up for the next thing I say that they don't approve of. But I also don't want him to make a big deal out of it because that would make it even worse. And so what you're describing is quite a bind.
24:27 Speaker 05 At least now, I can stop myself when it's really realistic scenarios, like. But I, when I was younger, I would really get stuck because I couldn't move. I had so many, like, tabs open.
24:41 Esther Perel? That's a great image, I had so many tabs open. It's a great image, I suddenly saw it.
24:49 Esther Perel? But it's, I'm constantly overthinking.
24:54 Esther Perel? When you were coming today and you said, "This is what I want for us in this session," what was it?
25:03 Speaker 05 I was really thinking about how to deal with, uh, like, this entire life in the background that he has. Because he has the mom, he has the ex-wife, and he has the children, and there's always something happening here that I cannot control, that I'm kind of part of it, but I am affected by it. And to me, sometimes this is, this is really hard because I don't have the children, I don't have the surname, I'm not the mom, I'm not his mom that has, like, all those unbreakable bonds that I don't have. How can I deal with all this? That was my, what I was...
25:44 Esther Perel? And when you bring that up to him, "I don't have children of my own, I don't have your last name, I don't have your, I don't share your history, I don't share your culture, I don't share your family." What happens when you bring that up to him?
26:02 Speaker 05 He, he understands, he gets where, where I'm coming from. But to him, like, we being together and the love that we share and the life that we share is bigger than the background and what was before and then everything else.
26:22 Esther Perel? What is the thing that you need or that you imagine that would make you feel that you have one thing with him that is...
26:34 Esther Perel? An original creation, rather than legacy.
26:42 Speaker 05 Legacy.
26:45 Speaker 05 I mean, I can see that being a child.
26:49 Speaker 05 But even for that, I'm like, but if we have a child, then, then, then, then, then, then. I also go all scenarios that are from pretty logical ones to like, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. Because I understand feelings.
27:10 Speaker 05 But feelings fade.
27:14 Esther Perel? So, what would be a structural, right? Legacy pieces are structural pieces. And you say, we have a love story and we have feelings, but they are not nearly as solid as structural hand-me-downs.
27:33 Esther Perel? You make a good point. And then you say one structure would be having a child of our own. But then you go right into the story.
27:43 Speaker 05 I know.
27:43 Esther Perel? In a not very useful way, I think.
27:48 Esther Perel? Like, what would his wife think about you, you know? It's an interesting thing. On the one hand, you feel like all these people are cluttering your inner life. And on the other end, even when they're not there, you bring them in.
27:59 Speaker 05 I agree.
28:00 Esther Perel? You have a whole cast of characters. For everything you want, you think about six people and their reactions.
28:09 Esther Perel? So that is your contribution to the bind.
28:14 Esther Perel? This contrast between love and its feelings and the structural hand-me-downs that come with a person. That's the thing that one doesn't get to see when you have a six-month online relationship. You just see this person who is completely available. Of course, he's available because he's also, in part, missing out on the rest of his life. And then when they meet, it is still the two of them meeting. And then when she comes and she travels over, she realizes that there is a whole structure that comes with him that exists independently of his feelings, with people who have all kinds of opinions. And he can't control all of that.
28:56 Esther Perel? And that the love story and the life story are not one and the same.
29:04 Esther Perel? We need to take a break, but please stay with us.
29:12 Speaker 06 Purchase new carpet from The Home Depot and get it installed for free right now. Shop the stylish choices and simple pricing of carpet from Home Decorator's Collection, Traffic Master, or Life Proof with Pet Proof technology, and see for yourself why nobody beats our prices. Enjoy new carpet with free installation right now at The Home Depot. Offer valid October 15 through November 1, 2026. Exclusions apply. For licenses, see homedepot.com/license numbers.
29:42 Speaker 07 Hey, listen! Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure, now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet. And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built-in microphone.
30:04 Speaker 07 The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, a Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up.
30:11 Speaker 08 LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.
30:44 Speaker 04 Like you are what's important.
30:48 Speaker 04 To me, you are.
30:50 Esther Perel? But you understand what she just said?
30:51 Speaker 04 I do.
30:52 Esther Perel? About feelings come and go.
30:58 Speaker 04 Yes, I I mean, I understand, but I I it's different. Our relationship is different.
31:06 Speaker 04 I don't see it fading. I don't see.
31:11 Speaker 05 And I also know that having like, oh, because of a child. It's not that it doesn't mean anything. I don't think it's a proof of anything. But it's a bond that we share, that you would share with someone forever.
31:31 Esther Perel? And it's a structure.
31:34 Esther Perel? I mean, it's not a child is a structure, but it it's a manifestation. A concrete manifestation of something, yes. And I think that because you didn't want it in your previous marriage, and because you have all these what ifs with him, you don't allow for that thought to actually come through, at least for for real thinking.
32:02 Esther Perel? And the children are his, the last name is his, everything is his.
32:09 Speaker 04 The house is ours. We we bought the house. So we.
32:14 Speaker 05 That was huge for me.
32:15 Speaker 04 Yes, we.
32:16 Esther Perel? Good.
32:17 Speaker 04 I very specifically tried to remove all the history, any kind of things that were shared. So there is no shared history, there is no, it's not the same house that we lived in previously, like, there's none of that. Because it's that's baggage that I can control, that I can, I don't want that.
32:38 Esther Perel? What music do you listen to?
32:41 Speaker 05 Uh, country music. I'm always listening to country. And so and every now and then, I listen to some, uh, like Brazilian, he likes it too. So, but it's it's basically English all the time, like.
33:00 Esther Perel? Why?
33:02 Esther Perel? Why don't you listen to more?
33:04 Speaker 05 I think because I, it's a very rational reason. I think I moved to, to Apple Music and I had all those playlists on Spotify. And I didn't like stopped to like create my playlist.
33:18 Esther Perel? You see those are things, you are, are you a tech, techie person?
33:22 Speaker 04 Yes, yes.
33:23 Esther Perel? So why don't you do that for her?
33:26 Speaker 04 I can. I didn't know she needed it, but I would.
33:29 Esther Perel? No, she doesn't know that she needs it either.
33:32 Esther Perel? But you need to create some of these bridges.
33:37 Speaker 04 Okay.
33:39 Esther Perel? Because she's immigrating by country, she's immigrating by status, she's immigrating by family, she's immigrating by profession. She's going through massive, multiple immigrations and acculturation at the same time. And she's good at saying, this is a lot for me, but she doesn't necessarily know what she need that would kind of give her a relief on occasion. And that's where you, who also knows it's a lot, need to just think, what would be things that could facilitate that?
34:14 Esther Perel? You know, the burdens of living in a foreign language and working in a foreign language and.
34:19 Speaker 04 I can't imagine. I can't imagine how hard it is.
34:21 Esther Perel? No, you speak only English.
34:23 Speaker 04 Yes.
34:24 Esther Perel? Yes.
34:26 Esther Perel? So there are a few different levels. The music is one just because she happens to come from one of the countries that has the greatest music creation there is.
34:38 Esther Perel? The conversation about a child has to take place. And you have to counter all her thinking about seven other people at the expense of her.
34:52 Esther Perel? What are the things that we can do, small and big?
34:58 Esther Perel? How many trips a year does she go to visit in Brazil? How many trips can they come and visit her here?
35:07 Speaker 04 I push you to go.
35:09 Speaker 05 Yes.
35:10 Speaker 04 And she restricts and declines because she's afraid of work and I want you to go.
35:16 Speaker 05 I know. I know. It's on me that one. No, I, I think, especially because of work,
35:24 Speaker 05 I still need to prove myself at work. I'm new there. And all those things and I, again, put all those obstacles in front of.
35:33 Esther Perel? Right, but that's where you need to come in.
35:37 Esther Perel? So on occasion, you just put a ticket in her hand.
35:40 Speaker 04 Because it's dangerous, but I can, I can do it.
35:44 Esther Perel? It could be a metaphor. It doesn't have to be literal. You're on the right track, but you, you, you retreat when she pushes back. Instead of actually, if she pushes back, it means that she needs more of your support and insistence. Because it means that she needs you to push through some of the what ifs and the multiple scenarios and the 10 reasons for why she can't do something.
36:12 Esther Perel? The first 20 years of my career, I specialized in working with interfaith, intercultural and interracial couples and families. And I remember often thinking that a person who would move to the other country or convert to another religion or raise their children in another culture, language or faith than the one that they grew up in was often in each couple, the only one who could actually do it. And that the role of the receiver was to be forever attuned, grateful and a facilitator of relief for the person who was doing such an adjustment
36:56 Esther Perel? to the point where they sometimes didn't even realize how much of an adjustment it was.
37:05 Speaker 04 I know you sacrifice. I know you sacrificed everything for me. I feel undeserving. I don't feel like it's worth it because I have all this baggage.
37:17 Esther Perel? You feel undeserving and guilty or grateful? It's not an either/or, but...
37:23 Speaker 04 I feel super lucky. I feel that I didn't do anything that makes me deserve what I have gotten in return. And I don't get to bring the same things to the table.
37:37 Speaker 04 If tomorrow you said, "I can't deal with it anymore, I have to go," I don't blame you. I understand, it's a lot.
37:47 Speaker 05 I see the kind, generous man that you are. Your sense of humor is so clever, that I love that. That's what I see. I see you're always happy. You're always optimistic. I'm on scenario 100 and you're focusing on the two that are the best ones because they will happen. You make me feel happy.
38:18 Speaker 05 That's who you are to me. You are, you have an ex-wife, you have kids, you have all this too. You're you.
38:26 Speaker 04 Yes, but that's...
38:30 Speaker 04 Like, all of that carries a lot of importance to you.
38:34 Speaker 05 It does. But I don't know if it's because I'm operating in what I'm lacking.
38:45 Speaker 05 Because I lack connections, my family's not here. I don't have this, I'm so much in what I don't have.
38:54 Esther Perel? But is that only circumstantial? Or was that also an orientation to life that you had before? Did you assess your first marriage on the same principle, what I don't have?
39:10 Speaker 05 Probably.
39:11 Esther Perel? Okay, that's a very important thing to keep in mind. You have a lot available to fill in the bucket of what you don't have. So it feels like it's about the circumstances of your life, which it is. But it also seems to be a certain way that you at times look at life. And this is where you are enormously important, sir, because when you don't engage with the multiple conjectures and you just say, "This is how it is,"
39:42 Esther Perel? it actually reassures.
39:46 Esther Perel? But when she goes negative, what I'm missing, what I gave up, or what I don't have, then that's the moment when instead of going into the "I don't deserve it" and you bring it on to you, your clever humor will go a long way.
40:05 Esther Perel? Because in those moments, she may need perception adjustment, which becomes reassuring, which becomes alleviating, which takes her out of her dark places of dread. I didn't ask you about that. Do you know where the pain and the anxieties come from?
40:25 Speaker 05 I think I grew up like that, because I... My parents had a very difficult marriage. They are together still and they have this really
40:37 Speaker 05 relationship that they fight and they... Very up and down kind of relationship. But we suffered a lot from it, from watching it. And in many times, I felt like I was in the...
40:54 Speaker 05 Like protecting my sister. Even though we're twins, like we're the same age, but I always had this, "I'm protecting my sister. I'm shooting her from things. I will try to manage my parents." So I always, I had this role growing up. The mini grown-up, kind of. But I was a child.
41:21 Esther Perel? And your rumination about the multiple scenarios was a way to make yourself less scared?
41:31 Speaker 05 To get ready. If something happens, I know how to do. I know what to do with it. I know. I could just get up and go. And to prevent things. I was like, how can I prevent scenario? And how can I react if scenario?
41:51 Esther Perel? It's a way of dealing with being unsafe and a way of dealing with danger, emotional danger in the house when it's very volatile. And they were volatile. And that's why your clever humor is medicinal.
42:13 Speaker 05 Even when he hugs me, I feel like I can just kind of let go. To me, he has this like bear hug. And he's warm. And I'm like, OK, can I go? Like, I'm safe.
42:30 Speaker 04 You are safe.
42:33 Speaker 05 And I always say, I know, I understand. Because I'm always in this, I know, I understand. I'm always in the rational.
42:40 Esther Perel? You don't have to say anything. What he just did was the equivalent of a bear hug, which, by the way, if you want to give her one, you can.
42:48 Speaker 05 Of course.
42:58 Esther Perel? So your hugs, your reassurances, your clever humors, all of that, and a little more initiatives with the other women of your life. And then ways that you support her so that she doesn't have to ask. And over time, this will mature. This is going to require time. But till now, you've primarily done the landing and the surviving and the getting the job and getting the papers and creating the structure. And then you'll have a conversation about a child.
43:40 Speaker 04 A real conversation.
43:42 Esther Perel? A real conversation.
44:11 Speaker 00 You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to esterperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating and Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esterperel.com.
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