Am I Being Gaslit?

In this classic Esther Calling, Esther talks to a woman looking for clarity on whether she's being overly sensitive to her partner's critiques or if he is, in fact, gaslighting her. She has struggled with boundary setting before and she wonders if she is repeating the pattern here. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

• 0:22Esther Perel?

  Hello, hello.

• 0:25Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 0:26Esther Perel?

  So you wrote the question or you recorded the question, but if you could ask it to me again as we speak today?

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I'm wondering if I'm being gaslit by my partner or if it's a case that I'm just being overly sensitive. I feel like there's that I get certain treatment when we're alone. That feels very hidden. But, you know, in speaking to him, he says I'm overly sensitive, that like I'm overly boundaried and that I am actually, it's more that I'm treating him badly. And he gets like angry at me for me being kind of bad. And he admits his that sometimes his behavior isn't great and he's working on it and he's worked a lot on it.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  I just have no idea if I'm basically a bad person and if I'm treating him like crap and not being sensitive to him. Because that's what it sounds like.

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• 2:46Esther Perel?

  So tell me something. Let's just go a little bit back. How did you come to formulate the question the way you do? What is the history of your relationship that led you to this question? Am I being gaslit or am I overly sensitive?

• 3:04Speaker 02

  So here's a tendency. So for example, over New Year's, we went away together. We were in the car and I wasn't feeling well. And he just kept on like shouting at me and kind of giving out to me and telling me that I wasn't being nice to him.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  And he was shouting at me and originally I thought he was kind of joking. And I was like, yeah, I know I am. But I was quite premenstrual at the time and I I was menstruating and I felt awful. So I was just kind of a bit of a curmudgeon. And I was like, yeah, I know, I feel bad. Just let me feel bad. I know where I am. Like this is grand. And he just kept on shouting like, you're not being nice to me. You're not being nice to me. Oh. And like, we were literally going to our friend's doorstep. And like, he just left me there and was just just acted like everything was perfectly normal. And it's it seems to often be as well with and social settings that we'll be going out

• 4:08Speaker 02

  and he'll he'll do something to pull the rug out from underneath me and be like, what's your problem? Uh, one another example is I was at therapy and and I came back and I wasn't feeling particularly great. You know, we had been talking about boundaries because I do have concerns that on my boundaries aren't very good. And it's something that I I work on.

• 4:32Esther Perel?

  What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? That's a big statement, you know?

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:39Esther Perel?

  And and one in which only you know what you mean by it.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I know that I don't necessarily know how to put up boundaries. I was in a I was in a job before. Basically, I worked myself to a state of very poor health. And a lot of that had to do with working with someone who wouldn't let me say no. So no matter how much I was like, I'm not available, they just kept on pushing me. And also that particular industry and that particular job, there was a real need for me. There was nobody else to do the job. I had to travel and move and I was exhausted.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  But because there was such a need for me, I I let myself, I suppose. But I felt like I didn't have a choice. I let myself just get torn into that and away from my life and away from the people that I care about. And and eventually I got to a point where I completely burnt out.

• 5:48Esther Perel?

  And you're telling me this also because in some way, something parallel is happening between you and your boyfriend?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:00Esther Perel?

  Right? You are on the verge of burnout. If I ask you, you know, because you say, am I being gaslit? Or am I overly sensitive? Which of course is what people who are gaslit often end up feeling.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:15Esther Perel?

  Is that they are being overly sensitive, that they are not clear, that they're doubting themselves, that they're confused, that they no longer trust their own sanity.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:25Esther Perel?

  You know, I you went to look for the definition of what being gaslit means?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  I definitely looked it up at some point, but I don't quite remember it at this moment.

• 6:37Esther Perel?

  So let me, you know, without even defining the term, if you're telling me I'm in a relationship where I don't trust that what I think has validity. I find myself often saying I feel something and then I'm being blamed for the very thing that I just uttered. The blame is constantly shifting. I am accused of being the gaslighter and then I end up completely confused. And it makes me question the situation. And it's like, you know, what there's a what we call in my field, projective identification. You know, you are telling me that I'm doing to you what you're exactly doing to me.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:23Esther Perel?

  I distrust myself.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:26Esther Perel?

  I begin to question my mental health because you keep telling me that my mental health is not steady.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:32Esther Perel?

  Or something happens and you tell me that's not what happened.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:36Esther Perel?

  Or that it is your fault if it happened.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:39Esther Perel?

  Or that I'm doing these things and I'm saying these mean things because I actually am trying to help you.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:47Esther Perel?

  Or that it's not such a big deal. So what if you're menstruating? That shouldn't explain why you're treating me the way you are. Or that you're overthinking it. Or that when I mean, I was just joking. Or that you're too emotional. These are kind of seven common gaslighting phrases.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:05Esther Perel?

  You know, if any of these are continuously occurring to you or if you simply, even without that, say, you know,

• 8:15Esther Perel?

  I am constantly questioning myself. I'm constantly doubting myself. I'm constantly in a state of confusion, et cetera, et cetera. Then the answer to your question doesn't really matter. What you know is that this is not a good situation.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  But the thing is, like, that's the thing is like.

• 8:37Esther Perel?

  Now you're going to give me the other side. But we also have nice times. But when I'm about to pull away, he apologizes profusely and he promises that he will change, that he's working on it and that this will never be happening again until two hours later.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:54Esther Perel?

  And now you're going to see so back and forth in the ambivalence. You know, here are all these things. But maybe what if what he says has validity and is true?

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:06Esther Perel?

  And maybe I am indeed so insecure. And maybe I do indeed have a problem with boundaries, which of course I'm having with him too. And so in the end, maybe he knows me better than I know myself.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:20Esther Perel?

  And when I say I'm hungry, he says, no, you're not really hungry. You shouldn't be hungry right now. And I'm beginning to wonder, well, maybe then I'm not hungry.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's literally like what happens. I'll be like, oh, let's get some food. And he'll be like, no, no. I'm like, well, I'm I need something. And I'll end up getting like a protein bar, something to tide me over until we're eating. And then and then he'll be like, oh, yeah. By the way, while you went into the shop to get a protein bar, I got a chicken sandwich. And I'm just like, what?

• 9:56Speaker 02

  But it's, yeah, it comes from everywhere. It feels very, um, controlling.

• 10:05Esther Perel?

  It's either reality manipulation,

• 10:09Esther Perel?

  scapegoating,

• 10:12Esther Perel?

  coercion, or straight up lying. Those are probably four of the main gaslighting tactics. Shifting blames would be another. When you shift the blame is another common tactic. Um, and the interesting thing as I listen to you is you have the answer to your question.

• 10:40Esther Perel?

  Every time you give me another example to reinforce that you actually know what's happening.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  But the thing is that, like, he has

• 10:53Speaker 02

  shown me in so many ways that he does love me and he,

• 10:58Speaker 02

  like, we have the, honestly, the best time. He's my best friend in the world. Like, I,

• 11:06Speaker 02

  I don't know how to lose him. And like, that's the thing is like, I see him as a really good person. I see him as like a really kind and warm and friendly. And if you see him with his friends, he is incredible, like incredible. Like, it's so, so confusing. Exactly, again, but then he turns around and does that, that to me. But he honestly, that's the thing. I'm just like, I wish that I could wash it off.

• 11:39Esther Perel?

  No, a question I would ask him.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:45Esther Perel?

  Is who did this to you? And nobody stopped them? Who did you see do this in your family? And nobody stopped them?

• 11:58Speaker 02

  I feel like that would really be really hard for him. And I would be worried about challenge, not challenging. I think it would, for him, something like that would be.

• 12:09Esther Perel?

  But do you know?

• 12:11Speaker 02

  I'd, I'd imagine I have an idea.

• 12:15Esther Perel?

  That's my question. My question is, you know, he may be a wonderful friend, but that does not dictate how he's gonna be with his girlfriends.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:24Esther Perel?

  Those two things don't necessarily always go in sync. And I would ask him, where did he learn this?

• 12:33Esther Perel?

  And who did he see do this? And who never stopped it? And I would then ask you this parallel question. This, of course, is not a question you're gonna ask him, but I'm asking that. Do you, because you probably know him, how long are you together?

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Two years.

• 12:48Esther Perel?

  Okay. And then I'm gonna ask you, who did you see in such a dynamic? Where did you learn not to be able to say no?

• 13:00Esther Perel?

  Because this is not about, am I being gaslit? Or am I being overly sensitive? Without defining, you know, without focusing just on these two terms, you've described the reality. And then you say, but he loves me. And that may very much be the case as well. But he also needs to control you.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:21Esther Perel?

  But he's also intensely insecure and therefore he needs you to be one down.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:26Esther Perel?

  But he also has a hard time hearing you say, I'm hungry, without instantly denying it or defying you or qualifying it or deciding if you have a right to be hungry at this moment or not. Because he knows better than you what your stomach needs. So regardless of how much he loves you, he still would need to learn to differentiate and to be able to let you have an experience and respond careingly and compassionately to it without having to decide if your experience is valid or not before he decides how he wants to respond. Because he's the master and the judge.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Yeah.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  That is qualifying my experience. That's it. It's like every single experience I have, all of my friendships, all of my work. It's like, it's being qualified. That's exactly it. And like, being like, you're doing this right and you're doing that wrong. It's like being stuck in a box. And the thing is, I know that I am brilliant. And I have beautiful friendships. And I have, I, I was excellent at that job. And I'm excellent at most things that you put in front of me. And I feel that really deeply.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  I know what I'm doing.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  And I care about myself. And I've had to do a lot of work on myself. And I'm continuing to learn and all of, you know, I'm conscious of where I go up and where I go down, but.

• 15:07Esther Perel?

  And if you had a friend, since you have very good friends, if one of your friends was in a situation that is similar to yours, what would you say?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Just step away.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  It's not, it just doesn't, it's not that easy. It just doesn't. We're completely entwined in each other's lives as well.

• 15:32Esther Perel?

  Hmm. And then what would you say to your friend? So your friend says, it's not that easy. We've got our lives completely intertwined with each other. I've invested two years of my life here. I know he loves me.

• 15:47Esther Perel?

  But I'm being obliterated. I'm losing my mind.

• 15:52Esther Perel?

  I'm continuously put in a situation where I have to doubt myself.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd be like, I'll take care of you. I don't know.

• 16:08Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 16:18Esther Perel?

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• 16:58Esther Perel?

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• 17:25Esther Perel?

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• 18:36Esther Perel?

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• 19:37Esther Perel?

  Have you spoken with your girlfriends or your friends, period?

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, a little bit. I don't like to speak badly about him because they all know him. So I want, you know, to honor the relationship in a way. I've spoken to my sister, but.

• 19:56Esther Perel?

  And has anybody said, keep going?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Yeah. And then I've, I had one friend who was like, had flagged it early. And when she flagged it, that was also the time, literally the same day when I had the the breakdown uh for work, or the day that I got literally a cert from my doctor being like, you can't go to to work any, you can't do that job anymore.

• 20:27Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  And I uh was not sleeping through the night and I was, it was, I was like literally talking to him about it and he was like, well, I'm thinking about, maybe we should break up. So he, he's, he nearly always, when I'm at a like a level of like peak stress, he'll put something else on top. And then I never went back to work after that.

• 20:57Esther Perel?

  So if you are struggling with something, he will trump you? If you bring up a feeling, he'll bring up another one that he's, he thinks in that moment is more important than the one you just brought up?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, every single time. So that boundary, when I was talking about that boundaries thing, he flipped. When I, when I was back from the therapist and I was just like literally standing in the kitchen being like, I just need to eat some dinner. So I was like, right, I'm just going to make myself some food. I'm gonna take care of myself, I'm gonna nourish my body. And I was like, okay, I just need, you know, I'm a bit weird right now. I just need a little bit of space, cause I blah blah. And then he started at me and I was like, no, I can't handle this right now. I've explained the fact that I'm feeling very vulnerable. I'm just like letting you know that. And he was in a great mood when I came in.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  And then suddenly he turned and then he started shouting at me and shouting at me. And I was like, stop shouting at me. And then he freaked out about me having, me not understanding what a boundary was, me turning my boundaries against him. And then he made me, uh, we had this long discussion about what qualifies shouting or not. And then we literally got into the depths of like, right, what shouting, what the semiotics of the word shouting is to both of us. And then he made me force, he made me say that he hadn't been shouting at me in regard, in terms of the way that he understands the word shouting.

• 22:35Esther Perel?

  So you cover all four, right? You cover the coercive strategies, you curve, cover the shifting of the blame, you cover the questioning of your reality, you cover the manipulation, the disqualifying. So you've answered your question.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:51Esther Perel?

  What has made it so difficult for you to know that you have to go or to act on it? Where, where does your challenge come from? In terms of saying no, in terms of saying this is a no I need to do, and I'll deal with the consequences. In fact, I'll be liberated. I'll suddenly realize how much I've been hijacked and what kind of a hostage situation this has been. And I will be able to once again liberate myself with my friends. And then my friends are gonna start telling me how they had noticed it, that and the other. And I'm gonna say, how come you never told me? And they'll tell me, we kept trying to tell you, but you couldn't hear it, cause you were completely enveloped in this saga.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, it's bizarre. I know that you're right. I know that.

• 23:42Esther Perel?

  You're brilliant. You know, you've answered your questions. You have your answer. This is not a question of discernment. This is a question of, you've tried it before, you may try it again. He's gonna beg you, he's gonna plead you, he's gonna be his best self for half an hour. And he's a, he may be a perfectly good kind person.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:06Esther Perel?

  But he's got some things to deal with if he's gonna be in a relationship.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:10Esther Perel?

  And so do you.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I think that's the thing is like, I'm like, if I've tried so hard, you know, and I'm thirty five, I've been in enough relationships. And like, he genuinely has worked a lot on himself and I can see how he's come along, you know, in a, in a, like, in a big way.

• 24:37Esther Perel?

  Do you know what?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  What?

• 24:38Esther Perel?

  I don't know what you mean. Because every example you've given shows me somebody who has very little ability to see what he does.

• 24:51Esther Perel?

  And of course, for any gaslighter, there must be a person that is, that is letting themselves be gaslit.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:58Esther Perel?

  These two go together.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:02Esther Perel?

  But there hasn't been a situation where you describe him saying, I realize, I notice, I take responsibility, I'm sorry, I was projecting, I was dumping.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  He has.

• 25:13Esther Perel?

  None of it.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Well, he has done that. I mean.

• 25:16Esther Perel?

  When? When you leave?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  No, I mean, that's, I think that's the thing about,

• 25:23Speaker 02

  we do talk after these things happen. Like, I've been listening to you forever. I never knew that he knew about you and he sent me something, like one of your YouTube videos about like when couples get to an impasse. And he was like, let's look at this and let's talk about this based on the tools that are there. And like, I really appreciate that. I can see him trying.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  But the thing, we're actually at a point right now where we're not really speaking. And I asked for the keys back for my flat after the, everything that happened that I've been kind of talking about recently. It was too much.

• 26:17Esther Perel?

  I mean, that piece of you're excusing him and analyzing and justifying and excusing his behavior is part of the gaslit cycle.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 26:34Esther Perel?

  He's doing this, but he doesn't really mean to do this. He feels bad about it afterwards. And so now I need to make him feel better about him making me feel bad.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:49Esther Perel?

  This is twisted.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Completely twisted because I was on the phone to him yesterday. I wanted to let him know that I was gonna be speaking to you, cause I thought that was respectful. I also was like, look, in the long run, like, I feel like we've been kind of running on kind of my, what I want. I just wanna know what you want. And then, of course, it came back around to how much all of his friends told him that like he's great. And, and then I, of course, was like, well, you're a great person and I want you to know that you're a good person. And I do think that, but it still comes around to like, having this treatment and I still seem to be the person going to him being, telling him that he's good. And then I'm the bad guy again.

• 27:36Esther Perel?

  And does that come from him as well? You're a wonderful person?

• 27:39Speaker 02

  No. I, I guess you're a lovely person.

• 27:44Esther Perel?

  You're a lovely person. Okay. If you are indeed such close friends, and if he's indeed such a wonderful person, then you may wanna find this relational structure that will actually highlight that. Being his friend may give you much more of the wonderful qualities that he has than being his girlfriend.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true, yeah.

• 28:08Esther Perel?

  At least for right now. So he can stay in your life. It's not clear that he will. Generally, when that dynamic occurs, it's more common that the person will be more vindictive and uh not want anything to do with you. They'll try, they'll try, they'll come back, they'll come back until they finally realize that maybe they're not gonna get what they want. And then they'll say, fuck you.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  And.

• 28:36Esther Perel?

  But if he does stay, have him in your life. But have him in the structure of relationship that gives you access to the best qualities that he has. If he's such a wonderful friend, be a friend.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  But I love him. And like.

• 28:52Esther Perel?

  That is, that is a wonderful thing, but that doesn't mean you need to make a life in that dynamic.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:00Esther Perel?

  It doesn't change if people don't actively take ownership over what they do to create this kind of dynamic. And that means you and him.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:18Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 29:29Esther Perel?

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• 31:16Esther Perel?

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• 32:47Speaker 02

  One of the reasons that I contacted you is I just want... I know that I'm autonomous in this relationship, but it's really hard to admit that I've let somebody walk all over me and that I haven't been strong enough to tell them to piss off. It makes me question myself so much more.

• 33:23Esther Perel?

  Which is one of the reasons why these dynamics sometimes go on for a long time. Because he has his denial. His denial is to shift the blame on you. But you have your denial, which is, this isn't really happening. I could walk away at any time. I am a strong woman. I am autonomous. Nobody tells me what to do, like that. But in fact, that's not what's happening. So it's one denial meeting another denial, so to speak.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I hear you.

• 33:56Esther Perel?

  And when you just say, but I love him, so what? I mean, I hear you. It's a deep feeling. But the question remains. And what do you want to do that your feelings of love are mired into a relationship that is ultimately going to make you lose your entire sense of yourself?

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:22Esther Perel?

  So you will continue to say, I love him, but the "I" will have dissolved in the process.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:31Esther Perel?

  It's not easy. You're going to surround yourself with friends, and you're going to have to be honest with your friends and let them know what's going on. Not by blaming him, but by telling them that you found yourself in a relationship where instead of increasingly becoming bolder and stronger and more recognized, it's all the reverse that is happening.

• 34:57Esther Perel?

  And that's not because of what he does only.

• 35:02Esther Perel?

  If on the other end you say, I want to do some couples work and I want us to both go and deal with this dynamic, go ahead. It won't change alone. Somebody has to see this in action to be able to intervene.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:15Esther Perel?

  Each of you will make perfect sense when you talk alone to your own respective therapists.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Couples counseling is on the cards right now. We've seen a couples counselor before and it didn't... She wasn't great. And my concern is that he's going to charm them. And he's not going to show the truth is the dynamic when there's another person present.

• 35:49Esther Perel?

  Then you'll put that on the table too.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 35:53Esther Perel?

  A good clinician sees the invisible and sometimes hears the inaudible.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  I mean, thank goodness for you and thank goodness for this phone call. Like I... It's just like clearing the clouds from my brain.

• 36:10Esther Perel?

  Look, I'm going to ask the question again, and we're going to say goodbye, but it is the question that you didn't answer, which is where does your challenge come from? Because you could say, you know, saying no is difficult for me, so I found a person with whom I can practice that muscle.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:30Esther Perel?

  These things are a mindfuck.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:32Esther Perel?

  But you may want to say, I want to practice my no and I found the best place to do so because here is a person who doesn't hear any of them. So I practice boundaries with somebody who doesn't respect any of them or sees them all as an attack on him or sees them as a weakness of mine, but they're all qualified. Or you may say, that doesn't have to be the way I'm looking for a relationship. I know you're 35 and I know that you love him and I know that you think you've had your share. But maybe that should bring you also a level of awareness that says, is this how I want to live?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  But I think that's the thing. It's like, I don't know how I'll have a healthy and wholesome relationship. I just keep on seem to getting... Get like battered or something.

• 37:35Esther Perel?

  Why me, smart, accomplished, professional, insightful, autonomous woman find myself in relationships with men where I end up in this kind of battered position? That is a very powerful question.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:56Esther Perel?

  And how do I learn to see it sooner rather than later?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:00Esther Perel?

  And how do I say, I'm breaking the cycle? And then act on it?

• 38:10Esther Perel?

  Is this a good place to stop?

• 38:12Speaker 02

  In my head, I'm only just beginning.

• 38:16Esther Perel?

  Because I'm leaving you with some big questions rather than slap answers. Because you have the answer to the question that you came with. You know the answer before you came. To what is the cycle that you are repeating? We didn't get to, but we suspect there is one because this is not your first time. Different melodies for the same dance. If we were seeing each other regularly, this would be the moment where I say to be continued. But it will be continued, but without me. But I'm inviting you to take this and do something with it.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  I will. Thank you.

• 39:05Esther Perel?

  Okay. Thank you very much.

• 39:11Speaker 00

  This was a classic Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your questions to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 40:12Speaker 04

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• 40:43Esther Perel?

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