My Hero Complex

When his ex calls in the middle of a crisis, he finds himself pulled back into a familiar role: the rescuer. He's always been the one women confide in, the one who steps up, the one who proves he's a good man by making sure no one falls apart on his watch. It’s a hero complex he wears easily. If he’s needed, he feels powerful. If he’s not, he feels invisible. He’s the strong one, the reliable one, and yet he rarely asks for help himself. Can he be loved not just for what he gives, but for who he is? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  Hello.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Hello Esther.

• 0:03Esther Perel?

  Hi, hi, hi.

• 0:06Esther Perel?

  What were you thinking just now before I came on camera?

• 0:12Esther Perel?

  You were very pensive.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  This is my first therapy session ever, so I was kind of wondering what to expect.

• 0:22Esther Perel?

  So this is an initiation?

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'm apparently doing it to the best of the best.

• 0:30Esther Perel?

  Oh. Where are you calling from?

• 0:34Speaker 01

  I'm calling from Nairobi, Kenya.

• 0:36Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And what was your question?

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Um, it was about maybe understanding the concept of a hero complex. Quite recently, an ex-girlfriend of mine called me out of the blue. We hadn't talked in two years. And she calls me and the first words she heard as well her life is falling apart and that she's having suicidal thoughts and that she had just gone through a breakup and she was was going through an abortion and the reason why she says she called me is because in her own words,

• 1:23Speaker 01

  the pain she was experiencing, the only time she can remember experiencing that kind of pain was when we broke up and we broke up around two years, three years ago now. And the reason why I ask about the hero complex is because I guess maybe some history between us. We met each other in college. I guess you could call it we trauma bonded. When we were only talking and we hadn't started dating yet. She would tell me about how she had come from a broken childhood essentially, how her parents did not have a good dynamic, her father was abusive to her mother, her mother was an alcoholic. And I think a month or two months before that,

• 2:08Speaker 01

  I had just found out my father was having an affair. And that was crushing for me because my father was a hero to me. And the reason why I say maybe we're from a point that she's the only person I've ever told that. Not even my closest male friends, not my siblings, not anyone close to me, not even my mom. She's the only one I told about the situation going on.

• 2:34Esther Perel?

  So you each opened up to each other?

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:39Esther Perel?

  And confided in each other things you hadn't shared with anyone else?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:47Esther Perel?

  And then?

• 2:49Speaker 01

  And then, I guess we developed a connection, a bond. And then, as we continued talking, she would tell me about how her ex-boyfriends did not treat her right. She would tell me about how her previous ex-boyfriends were either maybe abusive or just not good to her. And so, I think combining the two stories, um, the stories she had told me from her childhood and the stories she was telling me about her current life.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I want to say I felt sorry for her. There's this emotion I felt, um.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Yes, the best way to explain it is I felt sorry for her and I guess a part of me wanted to prove to her that the world is not all doom and gloom.

• 3:39Esther Perel?

  I wanted to rescue her.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 3:43Esther Perel?

  That's the hero. I wanted to rescue her. I wanted to show her that they are good men. I wanted to show her that it's not one man who mistreats you, who should be the representative of the whole species. I wanted to make her feel good and loved and precious.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yes. Actually, that was, looking back, the entire mission in that relationship was to make her happy. Nothing else.

• 4:19Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Hey, everybody. Sue Bird here, back with another brand-new episode of Bird's Eye View this week. Joining me on the pod is Kara Lawson, head coach of Duke University Women's Basketball and Team USA. Kara and I break down how the 2026 WNBA Finals are unfolding. We revisit Team USA's path to World Cup gold and discuss how far the women's game has come. Plus, Kara reveals her favorite player that she ever coached. Check out Bird's Eye View on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:44Esther Perel?

  And is that the first woman I've been wanting to do that with?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  In a relationship, yes.

• 5:50Esther Perel?

  And at home?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  She was actually also my first relationship.

• 5:55Esther Perel?

  Right. But you have wanted to make another woman happier?

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Um, yes. I guess I also have friends around me that I keep around me because, especially female friends, that I know their situations or their ex-boyfriends and maybe have an idea of what went wrong. And I kind of want the best of my ability to, um...

• 6:23Esther Perel?

  Protect them?

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yes, I want them to be happy. So I keep them around even after they have broken up with my friends. And yeah.

• 6:36Esther Perel?

  Have you wanted, I mean, especially because of what you told about your dad, have you been...

• 6:43Esther Perel?

  Invested in making your mom happy?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Not actively, I would say. Just a normal dynamic between mother and son. I can't pinpoint any instances where I was maybe out to make her happy. So I wouldn't say that.

• 7:01Esther Perel?

  But inside?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:03Esther Perel?

  You've been watching her for many years. And you wish you could?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yes, my father travels a lot to work, so. Growing up, it was really just me, my brothers and my mother, so.

• 7:17Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  I guess I knew at the time he always had to be at work. And so when you would come home, maybe maybe once a week or months every two weeks. Um, we will be okay with it because we know he's out working, he's out providing for the family. And that was okay with us. So we essentially grew up with my mom. He was there when he could be, but growing up, I thought they had a good relationship. I looked up to him. He was my hero.

• 7:49Esther Perel?

  Are you close to her?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  To who?

• 7:53Esther Perel?

  To mom?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  No, not really. I would say we have a lack of a better like a professional relationship. Um, we are not close.

• 8:07Esther Perel?

  And part of your question to me is, I wish I could understand more. This need of mine to save women, to rescue them. To capture these broken birds, these broken wings. And to show them.

• 8:31Esther Perel?

  What did you say? The world is not just doom and gloom. And I don't fully understand why I have that feeling. But I know it's very strong inside of me.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:46Esther Perel?

  Is that your question?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Um, yes, especially right now, I am not sure what to do because. I guess, yes, I want to make her happy, especially right now, um, she's going through something. But I do not want to fall back into the habit of.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Making the entire relationship or the dynamic between us about making her happy. I want to be friends, I really want to be friends with her. But I guess I want to be real friends, not just friends where where she calls me when she's in pain or. I want to experience a true friendship with her, now that the relationship fell apart, um. Yes, and I don't know what to do, I don't know whether to contact her, I don't know. I don't know whether to stay away because some part of me feels like I'm being used, um, just emotionally. I want the perfect optimum outcome, which will be, I want us to be real friends.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Where she's healthy, I'm healthy, and we can both be healthy. But considering our past, especially how we met, it was a time of pain for her. And I can't help think this is a habit, now that she's also in another period of pain for herself. That's the only person she could reach out instinctively was me. And if she was not going through her pain, maybe not.

• 10:18Esther Perel?

  Are you left wondering, is there something about me that makes people come? When they are in trouble or in crisis and they need me?

• 10:29Esther Perel?

  And somehow I often feel that they reach out when they need me, and but that's not the same as when they love me.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yes, I would like to say it's a gift. Um, people open up to me when we talk for the very first time. I've met people and within fifteen minutes of meeting them, they were opening about about situations in their lives.

• 10:54Esther Perel?

  So they come to me though when they have a crisis. They come to me when things are n- not well. But then when things are fine, that's not when they stay with me. That's what becomes challenging to me is I'm more than happy to be available when people go through a rough time. But it seems that people will come to me because I'm a good nurse.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:22Esther Perel?

  And I wish that they would come to me because I'm a good playmate. And I'm a good boyfriend and I'm a good lover. And I'm a good person to have fun with, not just to offload on.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Yes, I'd like for them to come to me when I when they're happy as well. I would like to share in the happiness.

• 11:42Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. And because when they don't, then what what what how am I left feeling? When they only come or when they predominantly come when there's a crisis or a problem? Then I feel what?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Used. I feel like I'm being used. And the moment maybe they are happy or not going through, the pain they are going through anymore, they will not call me or contact me again.

• 12:16Esther Perel?

  And then I feel what?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  I feel sad, um, and used. I I think somebody's used. I feel I'm happy to be there. I'm happy to be there, but.

• 12:31Esther Perel?

  But you're with me for what I can give to you and not for who I am.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:36Esther Perel?

  You're taking advantage of what I can offer you and what I can do for you. But I don't feel that you really are with me for who I am.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yes, I guess my question is whether if, for example, if she was happy and maybe having a kid, I don't know, maybe would she have called me, would she have told me the good news that she's having a child? Would she have, would I have never heard from her again, I guess is the question I'm asking.

• 13:05Esther Perel?

  Right, but the question is also, how do I change that? How do I not participate in inviting and encouraging women that come to me to share their crisis or their hardships?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:27Esther Perel?

  Because I don't say no.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  No, most of it.

• 13:30Esther Perel?

  So with her, I appreciate that you called me, that you feel that you can talk to me and that I am a reliable friend. I find it slightly difficult that you seem to really think of me and call me only when things are bad,

• 13:51Esther Perel?

  when things go sour.

• 13:54Esther Perel?

  I somehow don't appear in your life to share the good stuff only when the wind blows in the wrong direction.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  I thought about putting it that way, but when she mentioned that she was in a suicidal state, I thought maybe the best conservation is just to calm the waters for now.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Make sure she's okay, make sure she's happy, make sure she's laughing, make sure she's not in a state when she leaves the phone call where she goes through with maybe her darker thoughts. So that's something I would love to talk to her about.

• 14:35Esther Perel?

  What makes it compelling for you when people come to share their suffering?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  I think of it as a gift. I like the fact that people can tell me anything, not just maybe when they're in pain. Even their secrets and people just talk to me. I guess that's how it put it, people talk to me. And I like it. Problem is when they tell me about how maybe the pain they're going through. A lot of times because of how maybe I embrace them. It quickly devolves into a romantic attachment on their part. And maybe not necessarily the same on my part. So I kind of afterwards we go out of that situation as well.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  But often times ends up badly, so.

• 15:30Esther Perel?

  Say that again, it devolves into a romantic situation on their part.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yes, sometimes when they open up to me and we continue talking. They quickly delve into maybe an attachment. Because maybe I was there, I embraced them. And because I'm not there with them. It's kind of falls apart because I guess they're expecting something from me. Maybe they got an idea that because of how embracing I was. That maybe I'd be someone they'd like to be with, but. I just, I don't understand it. That's why I wanted to understand the concept of. A hero complex to maybe put these pieces together.

• 16:18Esther Perel?

  But there's two parts. There is.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:21Esther Perel?

  In fact, there's more than two. There is the part of you that says, I feel privileged when. Women and men, male friends too, open up to me. I feel honored, I feel privileged.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:36Esther Perel?

  But it turns from feeling privileged, it turns of feeling used. It's as if they come when I can give them something. But when they don't need anything, they go have fun with others.

• 16:52Esther Perel?

  So they get romantically attached when I'm taking care of them. They come to be taken care of. But it's as if they want me in the role of the nurse, in the role of the counselor, in the role of the coach. But they don't really see me as the boyfriend, as the person they can develop a relationship with. The moment they are better, they go back to others, others who are way less nice than me. Why is it that a nice guy doesn't get to experience the full relationship? And they go back to all these people, I know my friends included,

• 17:35Esther Perel?

  who don't always treat them that nicely?

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:50Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  Are you tired of hearing about business, tech, and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday, and we decode money, power, and love. And who doesn't love? Of all those things. We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy.

• 18:55Speaker 05

  Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  Welcome to the Tiger fam.

• 19:03Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business requires you to be resourceful. And the more you flex that muscle, the more you start to recognize growth opportunities. Like using Shopify to launch your business. And that's especially true if you launch with Black Friday approaching. So you can take advantage of the extra online traffic. Shopify is the platform for a record breaking, reliable, holiday selling season for businesses at every stage. Their pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional looking website. And you don't even need to touch a line of code to do it. They also have a mobile app that lets you run your online store from anywhere.

• 19:46Esther Perel?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com slash Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com slash Esther. Go to Shopify.com slash Esther today to hear your first.

• 20:04Esther Perel?

  Tell me what of what I said feels right. Say it in your own words.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  It's difficult because like I said, sometimes they do want to be in a relationship with me. But I guess, I guess the word nurse is best because I wonder if all I can be is a nurse. I wonder if, if I can find someone who is happy and maybe can share in the happiness. Not gravitate to someone that I feel like needs me. Because I should say, maybe when we started dating, I mean with my ex-girlfriend, there was also another person in my life at the time. She was happy and healthy, as I would put it. And I said no, I actively said no to the other woman.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  And went to the one I felt attached to when we shared about our pasts.

• 21:02Esther Perel?

  And how do you understand that?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  I like being needed, maybe. I like, I like, I like how I made her happy when we were together. I like how I could see a change. I could really see a change when she was with me. And that really gave me a dopamine hit. I would feel so happy. And the reason why I said that was, my mission was to make her happy is because sometimes even when I was going through something, I would actively not share it with her because I did not want to burden her. So her happiness, especially for me, was my sole mission. I had so much joy and fulfillment, but it wasn't sustainable.

• 21:46Esther Perel?

  For whom?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  For me. I wanted to move on.

• 21:52Esther Perel?

  But why? It's not sustainable because what? I start to resent it. I start to wonder, will there ever be space for me?

• 22:02Esther Perel?

  I start to feel like it's a lot of responsibility to be in a caretaking role like that. I start to wonder if I wasn't there helping you, would you still be with me?

• 22:15Esther Perel?

  Any of the above?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  If I wasn't helping, um, would you still be there?

• 22:20Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:24Esther Perel?

  Sometimes we have a hero complex or a rescue fantasy. Because we were able to rescue someone in another part of our life, often in our childhood. Sometimes because we were not able to rescue, often a parent, in our childhood.

• 22:47Esther Perel?

  And sometimes we have a rescue fantasy because it has to do with our sense of self-worth. I feel that people come to me when they need me because I can do something for them. But I don't know if they would come to me just because they fancy me.

• 23:04Esther Perel?

  There may be others, but these are two main ones.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Is it possible for me to fall out of the habit of wanting to save people?

• 23:13Esther Perel?

  Which one of the two resonated most?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  I guess the first one.

• 23:18Esther Perel?

  That I didn't get to rescue someone?

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Or I rescued someone and I liked it.

• 23:24Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And that's this girl?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:27Esther Perel?

  Or there was somebody before?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  This, especially this.

• 23:31Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. So when I see how much I can help someone, and how I can lift them, and how I can switch their spirit, it gives me a tremendous sense of joy, a tremendous sense of power, a tremendous sense of confidence.

• 23:52Esther Perel?

  And it makes me think that they of course would want to be with me because I'm doing these wonderful things for them. But then when things get better and they move on, then it completely turns on itself and from feeling joyful in my generosity, I start to feel used and taken advantage of, and bereft and extracted. Does that describe it?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Yes. I would find so much joy in making her happy. And I felt like I was doing something. But then when everyone is happy, I guess I wonder where my place is. So

• 24:39Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  I want to be with them. I want to share in the happiness.

• 24:44Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. Do you have the same split with your friends?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  My friends, I would say we have a good dynamic, especially my male friends. I would say it's a good relationship.

• 25:00Esther Perel?

  How would they describe you?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Smart.

• 25:04Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Um. Good advice. A good friend, a good friend. When they need me, yeah.

• 25:14Esther Perel?

  And do you ever need them?

• 25:16Speaker 01

  I would say need, no. Um. I like being self sufficient, uh like being my own person, so maybe need, no. Want, yes. But need, no, I'd say that's an attached too far.

• 25:33Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, yeah, a touch too far. I make sure to be in relationships where other people need me, so I never need to need them.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Yes, I guess.

• 25:45Esther Perel?

  I will be self sufficient, I will rely on myself, I will not allow myself to depend on anyone. I'm not sure I trust anybody would be as available as I can be for them. And so I turn the whole thing on its head.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  My friends call me. I really call them. Um. It's not anything malicious, but I guess that's just how it is.

• 26:10Esther Perel?

  But if you want to feel less used, you're gonna have to dare turn this around. And you can start with your friends when the stakes are lower, meaning you're gonna call them.

• 26:25Esther Perel?

  You're gonna practice calling your friends, you're gonna practice. Um, you see, you do the reverse, you just go to them when you're happy and when you're struggling, you keep it to yourself.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Yes, essentially, yeah.

• 26:40Esther Perel?

  It's the opposite of what you see the women do with you. But you have good friends, right? You have long standing friends.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:50Esther Perel?

  Okay. You can tell them, you call this strange woman in New York. And she put you on to an assignment.

• 27:01Esther Perel?

  You know.

• 27:04Esther Perel?

  And she said.

• 27:07Esther Perel?

  If you want to stop feeling used, you have to dare be vulnerable to others.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:15Esther Perel?

  Doesn't mean you have to go because you're suicidal or because you just have the biggest crisis in your life, you just go. When the the sky is cloudy. I think it would transform your friendships too.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  How do I allow myself to trust them?

• 27:34Esther Perel?

  Ah, a bit of this is a trial and error. A bit of this is you start with the friends that you think are the most trustworthy.

• 27:47Esther Perel?

  A bit of this is you start with something that is not of mega proportions, just something small. And a bit of this is that you don't expect not to feel any vulnerability or any fear,

• 28:01Esther Perel?

  because you will, and because you have zero practice, you've not done it. Your father is gone much of the time, and you see him as a hero because you think he takes care of everything himself. With your mom, you have a professional relationship, as you call, which is an amazing word, a choice of words.

• 28:23Esther Perel?

  And then you crave a certain kind of intimacy.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:30Esther Perel?

  But your friends don't know that. Your male friends in particular don't know that. Do you have female friends too? Or mostly male friends?

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Mostly male friends.

• 28:42Esther Perel?

  Right. And that's a reflection on you or on your culture?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Just me, I have some female friends, some very close female friends.

• 28:53Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  But I'd say my best friends, male friends.

• 28:57Esther Perel?

  From childhood, from early on, or from college?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  From college.

• 29:02Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Some of my friends from childhood moved away. I don't get to see them that much, but shock and awe, yes.

• 29:09Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  My friends are here, some have moved away, some have moved to the UK, abroad, elsewhere.

• 29:16Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  But yeah, I'm still here.

• 29:20Esther Perel?

  So how does one start to let other people be there for you? Here are five things, right? You pick wise, you pick the people who you think you really are more trustworthy, and you can, you know they're not going to use it. You pick something that isn't the most big and significant, but you use something that you know you don't typically share. You practice, which means you don't expect it to feel good and fantastic on the first time. You do a trial and error, and you tweak it every time. You let them take care of you, and you let yourself receive.

• 30:05Esther Perel?

  There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 30:14Speaker 06

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon Fall Drop, because the weather is shifting, and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's Fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 30:46Esther Perel?

  In relationships, I often think that there are a few key verbs. One is to ask. How do you feel about asking?

• 30:59Esther Perel?

  Do you know to ask? Do you trust that when you ask, people will respond? Do you know what to ask? Or are you so busy knowing what other people feel and need that you don't really know what you want?

• 31:15Esther Perel?

  Asking.

• 31:17Esther Perel?

  Giving. How do you feel about giving?

• 31:23Esther Perel?

  Do you enjoy giving? Yeah.

• 31:28Esther Perel?

  Some people enjoy giving. Some people give sometimes in order not to owe, in order to acquit themselves of a debt, in order not to feel guilty about taking. There's a lot of different feelings around the experience of giving.

• 31:45Esther Perel?

  And then there is receiving,

• 31:48Esther Perel?

  which is often the most vulnerable of them all. Can you let others give to you?

• 31:56Esther Perel?

  Can you experience the vulnerability of receiving? The fear of losing people?

• 32:04Esther Perel?

  The surrender that goes into receiving? The trust that is required to receive? And then there is taking.

• 32:15Esther Perel?

  When you feel used, you feel other people are taking from you. You don't feel they're giving to you. And you don't even feel giving to them anymore. Like when you enjoy seeing them uplifted and you feel the joy of making them happy. Once you start to feel used, that is gone.

• 32:38Esther Perel?

  And then there is the verb to refuse, to say no. Just part of what you're asking, Vizavi, this girl. What's my yes and what's my no?

• 32:50Esther Perel?

  You can't really say yes if you can't really say no.

• 32:56Esther Perel?

  And then there is imagining and sharing and wanting. There's a few other verbs, but those are the main ones.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Is it as easy as asking you to give me directions? I guess for lack of a better word. Should I contact her or not?

• 33:15Esther Perel?

  Should you contact her or not? You can contact her and at the same time say more than one thing. I care deeply and I also need you to know there's something about when you choose to reach out to me that doesn't feel really good.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  I sometimes, and I also did this a lot when we were dating, I would spare the truth in order not to hurt her feelings. So even now, while I know what I should say to her, I do not want to do it because I might hurt her.

• 33:51Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, right.

• 33:55Esther Perel?

  But you know what that means? It means that I don't truly believe that my feelings actually matter. I feel like I need to cater, I need to placate, I need to accommodate, I need to please to assure that people will be with me. And I certainly don't need to impose with any of my own issues. But underneath lies the belief that my feelings, needs, wishes, fears don't really have a place to go. So if you did something very different with this situation, what would it be? What's the thing you would actually wanna do

• 34:39Esther Perel?

  but you're afraid to do?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  I would call her and tell her I want to be friends, I want us to be friends. But I also want to experience a healthy you. I want to experience a happy you. You, when everything is going okay, when everything is going right, when you are happy. I am jealous of whoever you call when you have good news because it's not me. Yes, and I would call her and tell her I hope in future we can be friends but in a healthy dynamic.

• 35:17Esther Perel?

  Do you think she'll be open to that? Or do you think she'll say thank you and you won't hear from her again?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  I don't think I would hear from her again.

• 35:26Esther Perel?

  And that's okay with you?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  At this point, yes. I am okay with however it pans out. I am putting myself first. I am okay with however it pans out. Yes.

• 35:39Esther Perel?

  Is that a first?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it actually feels awkward doing it.

• 35:45Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, uh huh. Right, okay. So you've got your first step.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Should I call her first or should I wait until she reaches out?

• 35:56Esther Perel?

  Doesn't matter. She called you, right?

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:00Esther Perel?

  Okay, so you call her back? It doesn't matter. That's the kind of questions that keep people ruminating but not doing anything. You call her back. You say, "It was very nice to hear from you. I'm so sorry, dah dah dah dah dah." And I wanted to tell you something that's been on my mind.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Um, I have a habit of waiting for people to call me, so guess that might also be another hurdle, I guess.

• 36:28Esther Perel?

  Um, but I also think that you wanna practice it with some of your close friends. It's safer too.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Okay, um, I almost want to say culturally, it's not quite common.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  But I'm a grown up and I can make such decisions for totally not my friends.

• 36:52Esther Perel?

  But your friends come to you.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Yes, they do.

• 36:56Esther Perel?

  So then there's culturally nothing, we're not doing culturally anything transgressive here.

• 37:04Esther Perel?

  It's not like you're going for therapy to your friends. You're just telling them when it's available, you don't have to manufacture something. But you practice asking others, relying on others, needing others. Part of why you taught yourself not to need anything is because your dad was gone all the time.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I have, I have a negative reaction to the word need, but I think rely. I think rely on others.

• 37:39Esther Perel?

  You prefer rely, okay, all right, I'll, I'll, I'll happily change the word for you. Need brings up too much abandonment and unavailability, whereas rely feels a little gentler. We, we can switch. You're welcome.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you.

• 38:02Esther Perel?

  How is this conversation?

• 38:05Speaker 01

  I like it, um, it's helping me put some things into perspective, um. It's helping reinforce some of the decisions I've made that I was maybe second guessing or doubting. So, yeah, like I said, standing up for myself feels new, feels awkward. And because it's something I have to learn to do.

• 38:31Esther Perel?

  Standing up for yourself and at the same time being kind. It's both and, you know. Sometimes my friend Terry Real often says, "Men are often caught between either being powerful or connected, but they can't be both at the same time."

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Which one will you choose?

• 38:53Esther Perel?

  Both. I think to the contrary, my invitation is for you to experience both at the same time. You can be kind and connected and you can be powerful and make your point. Will you let me know what happened?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yes, I will. Thank you.

• 39:13Esther Perel?

  You're welcome.

• 39:25Speaker 07

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

• 40:10Speaker 07

  Are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.