Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Mothering My Mother Into Mothering Me About this episode Since the age of 8, she’s been the one holding her mother together and shouldering adult responsibilities long before her time. Now, as an adult herself, she’s ready to step out of the caretaker role and invite her mother to finally be the parent. Esther helps her explore how to loosen these deeply entrenched dynamics and create space for a more balanced, reciprocal relationship.
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments.
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Transcript 7,008 words · 10 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Hi Esther. I'm speaking to you in hopes that we can talk about the relationship my mother and I have. It's a complicated one, but simply put, I and the mother in the relationship. My mother was a product of an arranged marriage. My parents love each other very much, but my mother is very sheltered growing up and was married and had a child by 23 without much real-world experience herself.
0:34 Speaker 00 Then, eight years later, after years of emotional abuse from my paternal grandparents, my parents moved to America.
0:44 Speaker 00 I quickly became the intermediary between the outside world and my mom.
0:50 Speaker 00 My father, who was busy with work and providing for his family, had little time to spend with us. And my mom, too incapable, my brother, too young. I became the emotional leader of my family. I jokingly say I've been an adult since I was eight. This parentification strained many relationships. As I got older, I kept having hope that my mom and I could be both adults now. But that has also rarely happened. Me and my dad have become the caretaker of her emotional needs.
1:31 Speaker 00 And if I were to be very harsh, I would say that she sees herself as the victim in all of this. The time that she had with our in-laws, not having the exposure to feel prepared for the outside world, not being able to speak English confidently. All of it kind of becomes barriers to why she can't do something.
1:55 Speaker 00 If I point out any of these things and how they impacted her children, she gets defensive and even starts guilting, you know, me, so much so that it becomes my job to make her feel better. And this pattern keeps repeating and I don't know how to confront this part of my relationship with her. I love her very much and I have a lot of empathy for what she's gone through and try my best to like validate and understand her. But this is also something that's the undercurrent of every interaction I have with her. So, any help to mend this part of our relationship would be very helpful. Thank you, Esther.
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4:05 Speaker 03 I have been thinking about that message that I sent you. And I've landed on the fact that I think I'm trying to mother my mother into mothering me.
4:16 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm.
4:19 Speaker 03 And I don't know if that's a fair thing to accept or expect out of her.
4:25 Speaker 03 And I think I'm trying to understand if I should let that go.
4:31 Speaker 03 But I do feel a lot of hurt, especially when I think about my younger self.
4:39 Esther Perel? What comes to mind?
4:42 Speaker 03 The loneliness.
4:45 Speaker 03 The reason it's kind of like top of mind right now is my family loves to watch home videos. And I hate to watch them.
4:55 Speaker 03 Because all I see is evidence of what life was like for me.
5:01 Esther Perel? Evidence of?
5:03 Speaker 03 Evidence of um a little girl put in charge, trying to sustain the well being of her family in a new place with not a lot of like guidance and knowledge of how to do that.
5:21 Speaker 03 And as I got older, I think I started pushing back on some of those responsibilities.
5:30 Speaker 03 But I think it's met with some kind of like desperation of my help. And so then I help. I don't know how not to do that either.
5:40 Esther Perel? Did you write to us now because you were watching the home videos?
5:46 Speaker 03 So my partner and I went back home and my parents wanted to watch it with him. And my brother actually suggested we shouldn't do that.
6:00 Speaker 03 Doesn't make her feel good. And then she wanted to validate if that was true, but she was also hoping that it wouldn't be. That it was not the case. So she, before I could even answer, it was about. Oh, you know, I think you're you're fine, right? That doesn't bother you, right? He was. Saying that, but that's not true for you. And I think there was like a moment of, what do I say? Do I pretend? Or do I say the truth? And I chose to say the truth. You know, and not in a way that, you know, tried to. Point fault to anybody, but what seeing that made me feel, you know, I said it.
6:46 Speaker 03 Makes me feel sad for that person.
6:50 Speaker 03 And she could tell. It was feeling like a criticism of her. And she wanted to rationalize it away. I. Tried to explain that, yes, you weren't set up for success either. But that's not to say that I didn't experience those things. But I could tell it wasn't landing.
7:18 Esther Perel? And you were not surprised?
7:20 Speaker 03 Yeah, I wasn't surprised.
7:23 Esther Perel? I mean, she was acting according to. Character.
7:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, she does have moments of like, understanding. So sometimes I push, hoping that I get a glimpse of that, but if I don't, I'm quick to. Stop trying.
7:45 Esther Perel? What would you like?
7:48 Esther Perel? Would you like to? Be better able to resist?
7:56 Esther Perel? The tendency to rescue her at all times?
8:01 Esther Perel? Would you like acknowledgement of what happened? In the past? Would you like for her to be able? To let you have feelings and not always outdo you?
8:16 Esther Perel? Would you like? Your father to take you out of the triangle?
8:23 Speaker 03 Can I say all of the above? I would love all of that.
8:26 Esther Perel? In one hour or less?
8:30 Speaker 03 Um, but if I had to choose, I think it's, how do I stop feeling resentful?
8:40 Esther Perel? The resentment is for her limitations or for how she exploited you because of her limitations? Because that's what you feel. I was put in a position, I was too young. In effect, I kind of had to experience what she had experienced. Not enough experience with the world yet and a ton of responsibility put on me.
9:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
9:03 Esther Perel? But it hasn't stopped.
9:05 Speaker 03 Yeah.
9:06 Esther Perel? It's gone from limitations to entitlement.
9:12 Speaker 03 Yeah. My resentment is where she is now. I don't have much about, yes, it makes me sad to see it. And, you know, but I don't feel resentful about that.
9:30 Esther Perel? Can I ask you for an example of a situation that you wish was different?
9:39 Speaker 03 Okay. I, you know, my parents, whenever they want to do something to the house, they want to make some kind of renovation adjustment. I'm always kind of like someone they hold up as, oh, having a lot of influence and power in the family. Like, oh, let's check in with her and see what she says and then we'll do that. And oftentimes, I feel important. You know, I feel like I'm contributing something. And so it's easy for me to feel like, oh, let me contribute. But that comes to me a lot. To a point where, you know, why is my input in this important? And sometimes it's silly things like that,
10:23 Speaker 03 but sometimes it'll be about their marriage.
10:27 Speaker 03 You know, and I
10:28 Esther Perel? Has in?
10:30 Speaker 03 If my mom is feeling like something is not working, I become kind of like her counsel in the matter. Like, what should she do? Or feeling like she needs to tell someone about it. And
10:48 Speaker 03 Sometimes, in in the past especially, I would meddle. You know, and the pattern that we got into is my mom would complain to me about my dad. I would go confront my dad. And then it became a fight between me and my dad. And then mom would come in and say, oh, it's not that big of a deal. Let's stop fighting.
11:08 Esther Perel? And you would feel undermined?
11:09 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:11 Esther Perel? Because she set you up and then she didn't back you.
11:14 Speaker 03 Right.
11:15 Esther Perel? That is more than just parentified child.
11:19 Esther Perel? You put me in, I came to your rescue.
11:24 Esther Perel? And then you basically found a way to ally with him against me.
11:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's how it felt. Yeah.
11:33 Esther Perel? And then in your head, you say, come again, but I won't be there. I will not intervene anymore. I won't let myself be trapped like this. But then you do it again.
11:46 Speaker 03 It's gotten better where I.
11:48 Esther Perel? Good.
11:51 Speaker 03 Now, I had to tell her, like, your marriage is between you two. You shouldn't be talking to your children like about it.
12:00 Esther Perel? And then she would say, but I don't have my family here. We are alone. We left the extended family where?
12:09 Speaker 03 In India.
12:09 Esther Perel? In India. And therefore, of course, who else would I be talking to if not my children?
12:18 Esther Perel? But she talks primarily to you, not to your brother? Or both primarily to you?
12:23 Speaker 03 Both, but also, I think she also has this perception that like, oh, men can't handle the nuances of what I'm going through.
12:32 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
12:34 Esther Perel? So, tell me something.
12:39 Esther Perel? On the one hand, they come, I feel important, I feel respected, I feel that I can contribute.
12:46 Esther Perel? On the other end, I feel that I've had to give my opinion about a lot of things I know nothing about.
12:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
12:55 Esther Perel? Which means I have to, I have to perform confidence.
12:58 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, you had it, nail in the head. That's my whole life.
13:03 Esther Perel? Alright, and that, and that probably didn't just stay in the house.
13:08 Speaker 03 No.
13:09 Esther Perel? That accompanied you, because you, you too, you born in America?
13:13 Speaker 03 No, I was born in India.
13:15 Esther Perel? And you came at what age?
13:16 Speaker 03 Eight.
13:17 Esther Perel? Eight, so you too had to do a lot of learning and translating and figuring out the codes and all of that. There's a notion sometimes that the kids, the kids learn the language sooner, so they instantly are put as the official translators for everything administrative and all of the rest. See, when people say I had to be an adult since I was young, what does it actually mean, right?
13:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
13:43 Esther Perel? What does it mean to have to perform confidence, to pretend that you know when you don't, to never be able to say I don't know, because if she doesn't know, she turns to you, but if you don't know, who do you turn to?
13:58 Esther Perel? Right?
13:58 Speaker 03 Right.
14:00 Esther Perel? But I'm talking generically and you know your own experience.
14:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:07 Speaker 03 I'm trying to find an example of something that embodies the adult part. It, it's a lot of logistics and coordinating
14:20 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
14:21 Speaker 03 in, in an admin kind of way, but sometimes emotionally, it's about getting her to understand something, like how the world works, or how relationships are, or what a dynamic between two friends are supposed to be. And sometimes it's, it's that, sometimes it's like how to be a woman, you know? It's about teaching her how to dress, or style herself, or put herself out there, or be confident. And so that's why I feel like the mother, like I've taught her everything.
14:54 Esther Perel? But I'm asking you. The flip side of this. I've taught her everything. And in effect, I've taught her things I actually didn't really know much about.
15:07 Speaker 03 Right.
15:07 Esther Perel? So I come to her with a sense of confidence that isn't true.
15:16 Speaker 03 Hmm.
15:18 Esther Perel? I have to pretend with her that I know what she should do and she should wear and na na na. But fundamentally, I myself, I'm winging it.
15:28 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:31 Esther Perel? I mean, that's just my words.
15:34 Speaker 03 It is.
15:34 Esther Perel? That's how I'm imagining you. Yeah. It's like
15:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:38 Esther Perel? Because it's not okay to say I don't know.
15:42 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:44 Esther Perel? And is that true in other parts of your life too? Does that become a challenge for you?
15:48 Speaker 03 It does. I've become very self-sufficient. If I don't know something, I'll go find out. But the concept of asking someone else, I I don't know how to do that.
16:00 Esther Perel? And do you have your partner who came with you to visit
16:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:05 Esther Perel? home? How would he describe this? What does he do?
16:11 Speaker 03 I'm very different with him. I feel
16:16 Speaker 03 like a child. I feel taken care of. In a sense that like I can be soft and not put together all the time and not know all the answers.
16:26 Esther Perel? That is not just a child privilege. You can, you can just say, I I can, I can let go with him. I can surrender. I don't have to know everything. I I have somebody who I can rely on and who I can lean on.
16:39 Speaker 03 That's right.
16:40 Esther Perel? Hmm. Nice. Nice.
16:52 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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18:38 Esther Perel? So imagine mom calls you, and what would be the next request?
18:46 Esther Perel? I need what?
18:50 Speaker 03 Can you find me something related to some tasks that I have to do back home? Can you find out who I need to call? What I need to say? What questions I should ask?
19:03 Esther Perel? Okay.
19:05 Esther Perel? What would be the typical response? I'll get back to you, let me figure this out.
19:11 Speaker 03 My recent responses has been, have you asked ChatGPT?
19:14 Esther Perel? Uh huh.
19:16 Speaker 03 Uh huh, because I don't know either, that's what I would do.
19:20 Esther Perel? Okay, and this, and then what happens, she goes?
19:22 Speaker 03 She does, yeah.
19:26 Speaker 03 Recently, she does.
19:27 Esther Perel? Uh huh. And that, does he step in?
19:33 Speaker 03 Uh, yes, you know, but I think he's kind of constructed, his life is, he goes to work, he's busy, so my mom is a stay-at-home mom, so she has the time. So all these kind of like questions of research either fall into her. But I also work, but sometimes they fall into me.
19:56 Esther Perel? Uh huh, uh huh. One of the ways you don't engage.
20:01 Speaker 03 Hmm.
20:02 Esther Perel? Because you're not, here's how, how I think this unfolds. If you wanna change the other.
20:08 Speaker 03 Hmm.
20:09 Esther Perel? Change yourself.
20:10 Speaker 03 Uh huh.
20:12 Esther Perel? If you tell her, go do this, she may on occasion.
20:16 Speaker 03 Hmm.
20:17 Esther Perel? If you tell her, I'm so sorry, I wouldn't know where to begin, I'm sure you'll figure it out.
20:23 Speaker 03 Hmm.
20:26 Speaker 03 That's good.
20:27 Esther Perel? I know that the last times you went to the chat, GPT told you this, to do that, and you figure, I, and I, I actually learned from, from, from what you did, I very much enjoy learning from you.
20:40 Speaker 03 Hmm, hmm.
20:44 Speaker 03 I don't think I've ever said that.
20:47 Esther Perel? I'm gonna suggest to you a bunch of these, but the point of these statements is that they help you. Redirect.
20:57 Speaker 03 Hmm.
20:58 Esther Perel? And not
21:01 Esther Perel? fall into the, I either have to be mean and rejecting and tell her no, or I have to do it, and then I resent her. So it's a binary, I do what she wants and I'm upset with myself, and I do what I want and I'm upset with her, or reverse. I do what she wants and I'm upset with her, I do what I want and I feel guilty and I feel that I'm not a good daughter, and that I'm not loyal, and that I'm betraying a set of other values that are very important to me.
21:31 Speaker 03 Yes.
21:34 Esther Perel? So, how do you say no without saying no?
21:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:38 Esther Perel? It's like, I wish I could help. I'm sure you will figure it out. I'd love to know what you decide.
21:49 Esther Perel? But I need your help. So let's imagine it continues, but I need you too.
21:53 Speaker 03 Yes.
21:54 Esther Perel? That's a very good question and I'm sure you will find the answer.
22:01 Speaker 03 Hmm.
22:02 Esther Perel? It's not even go ask this person and go, it's, I know that, you know, you have shown multiple times how clever,
22:13 Esther Perel? thorough, solution oriented, competent. And all of this with an accent.
22:22 Speaker 03 Hmm.
22:27 Speaker 03 Yeah. I kept thinking of it as I have to push back.
22:34 Speaker 03 But entering, it's like no win. I push back, I feel bad. I do it, I feel bad.
22:39 Esther Perel? Hmm.
22:42 Speaker 03 Even talking to you, I felt so guilty.
22:45 Esther Perel? I imagined.
22:49 Esther Perel? It's disloyal.
22:50 Speaker 03 Right.
22:52 Esther Perel? She is not responsible. She didn't know better. I mean, you've found wonderful ways to excuse her constantly. So to the point where you don't feel you're entitled to have your feelings. They don't exclude each other. You can totally be empathic and understand her and excuse her and understand her circumstances. And at the same time,
23:17 Esther Perel? feel that she took it too far.
23:21 Esther Perel? Or even if she didn't take it too far, that it left you in a sometimes very burdensome situation. Many children of immigrant parents often find themselves in that situation. It's not a uncommon situation, but it's not always even about, you know, in the beginning, there's an immigration story. And on occasion, there's an immigration reality. But after, what, twenty something? Thirty. Thirty, okay. So thirty years.
23:51 Speaker 03 Right, we've lived here now longer, right?
23:55 Esther Perel? It's like you know viscerally when the story is true and when the story is being used for effect.
24:03 Speaker 03 It's it's a crutch almost.
24:08 Esther Perel? See, the interesting thing is that you actually will have an easier time, if I can use those words, to love mom. You will love her better.
24:20 Speaker 03 Yeah, instead of despite or.
24:23 Esther Perel? Yes.
24:24 Speaker 03 Yeah.
24:26 Speaker 03 It also feels emotionally less burdensome to like try to carry around either guilt or shame and obligation. Like, I I think that was kind of where I was putting myself. It's like, oh, either way, I'll feel a negative emotion.
24:45 Speaker 03 But if I don't engage, then I don't have to.
24:48 Esther Perel? Give me another example.
24:50 Speaker 03 The example that comes to mind, um, when my mom's mom passed, I went home to be with her. And what happened when I went is that my dad kind of disengaged from providing that support.
25:10 Speaker 03 And my brother didn't come. So it became like her grief was mine to hold and support.
25:21 Speaker 03 And I didn't think that was gonna happen. I thought we as a family would come do it together. And I found myself kind of holding it for her, you know?
25:31 Esther Perel? And what happens to you then?
25:34 Speaker 03 I feel burdened that, oh, I'm alone.
25:40 Speaker 03 And having to do this. I was also grieving. But I had to be strong.
25:48 Speaker 03 I don't know, I think I expected uh my dad and my brother to also kind of emotionally be there as well.
25:57 Esther Perel? And do you ask them?
25:58 Speaker 03 I didn't at the time.
26:01 Esther Perel? And you didn't?
26:04 Esther Perel? Because what happens? How much do you forget yourself? Once her reality inhabits you and becomes entirely your reality, that you can no longer have any awareness of any of your own needs or needs for her, for that matter.
26:22 Speaker 03 That's exactly what happened. I just got focused on, I'm here, okay, fine, I'll help her.
26:28 Esther Perel? Uh huh.
26:30 Esther Perel? Were you just you alone with her, or did you bring some of her other supports?
26:35 Speaker 03 Just me and her.
26:36 Esther Perel? Why?
26:39 Speaker 03 You know, I think someone in the community found out and they wanted to provide some kind of support. And actually, I think they called and she didn't want anyone else to know. She was surprised that someone found out and she wa- she wanted to kind of become a recluse and asked that person not to share it with anyone else.
27:02 Esther Perel? Uh huh, but she was not the only one going through the grief.
27:06 Speaker 03 Yeah. Yeah, I didn't even consider that.
27:10 Esther Perel? I know, I know, I see it.
27:14 Speaker 03 Her feelings feel so big, I don't know how to have space for mine.
27:19 Esther Perel? Right.
27:20 Speaker 03 I had a reputation earlier in my family that I was just angry all the time. I think it was maybe the only feeling I couldn't control.
27:30 Esther Perel? Sometimes, it's not so much that anger is the feeling we can control, but holding on to anger feels, is a way of feeling that we at least are holding on to some of our needs.
27:43 Speaker 03 Uh, yes, yes.
27:47 Esther Perel? To be angry is a way of remembering yourself.
27:51 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:51 Esther Perel? To be angry is a buffer.
27:55 Esther Perel? And I think that there are other ways to do it that don't demand you to be angry.
28:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:04 Esther Perel? That don't rely on anger as the way to maintain a space for yourself, as you say.
28:11 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:14 Esther Perel? When you are crying now, they don't know that side of you?
28:19 Esther Perel? They only know the... I have no idea what the angry side looks like. I haven't seen an iota of it.
28:24 Speaker 03 Yeah, I actually don't... For a long time, I didn't know how to express anger. The anger that they're referring to is me being slightly moody, distant.
28:38 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
28:40 Speaker 03 Maybe a little snappy. But no, I don't yell.
28:44 Esther Perel? Hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But it's ineffective anger.
28:50 Speaker 03 Hmm.
28:51 Esther Perel? Because you snap and then you do.
28:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:54 Esther Perel? You snap and you comply.
28:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah, right.
28:58 Esther Perel? Versus to actually work diligently on maintaining that space.
29:07 Speaker 03 Yeah.
29:08 Esther Perel? I understand you do not want other people to know. We have different ways of grieving. For me, other people being here with us, coming to sit with us, bringing food to us, whatever the rituals are, that are part of your culture and tradition, would help me a lot.
29:32 Speaker 03 My initial reaction to that is that feels very selfish. I know that's bad, but this is probably why... Like, I've been conditioned so much to even say something like that sounds selfish.
29:47 Esther Perel? What about it? I'm not surprised, but what about it?
29:52 Speaker 03 I think something is... Some of it is also cultural. Like, there's no such thing as individual needs.
29:58 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
29:59 Speaker 03 Right? It's very much, what does the family need?
30:04 Esther Perel? Yeah, but she didn't think about that either. I don't want anybody to know it's not a cultural need.
30:11 Speaker 03 Yeah. Right.
30:17 Esther Perel? You know, you probably know that from having heard me at other times. I give tremendous room and space and respect for cultural values.
30:30 Speaker 03 You do.
30:31 Esther Perel? But I also have learned that in families, we sometimes do cultural camouflage.
30:38 Speaker 03 Yes, yes.
30:41 Esther Perel? Yeah, it's like, we don't do this. Our culture, we don't do this. We use the culture to make a point that has not much to do with the culture itself. When she doesn't want anyone to know, that is not actually the cultural value. When you say, this is happening to the whole family, we are all going through a loss and we are all grieving. We need the support we can get, and you can say it in the "we".
31:07 Speaker 03 Yeah.
31:09 Esther Perel? You are not usurping
31:11 Speaker 03 Yeah.
31:11 Esther Perel? her needs, and you are not imposing your individual, Americanized, selfish, self-centered, yeah?
31:19 Speaker 03 Right, right.
31:21 Esther Perel? What is, what are the words I used?
31:23 Speaker 03 Uh, "Americanized" is definitely one.
31:27 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
31:27 Speaker 03 There's a big kind of like, what I want, I do.
31:32 Esther Perel? So it's very interesting. If you assert some of your needs toward mom, you instantly will feel selfish.
31:42 Speaker 03 Yes.
31:43 Esther Perel? Mom instantly will experience you as defiant.
31:47 Speaker 03 Yes.
31:48 Esther Perel? So the system is well put in place to make sure
31:54 Esther Perel? finish my sentence.
31:56 Speaker 03 Uh, to keep everyone in their place.
32:00 Esther Perel? Yeah.
32:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:02 Esther Perel? My invitation is a both end.
32:05 Speaker 03 Okay.
32:06 Esther Perel? Right, it's not me versus you.
32:09 Speaker 03 Right.
32:11 Esther Perel? Both end is, we are all grieving, it's a big, big, big loss. Differently for different people, but let's say, it's a big loss, is it?
32:22 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:24 Speaker 03 I see the pattern, I see that like the flash of images that you, what I just experienced. There is so much that she expects the family to kind of do in terms of accommodating to her. And I see that as like one force kind of pulling me into what is expected of me. And beca- and then to your point, I feel like I build up anger and resentment and then I snap and then I rebel.
32:55 Speaker 03 And then find a way for me to feel comfortable complying.
33:00 Esther Perel? Walk me through it.
33:02 Speaker 03 There was a lot of pressure on me, especially in my early twenties, to be a good Indian daughter that wants to get married. And in our culture, a lot of that, everything about us is policed in in that quest. And hair is a big one. So everyone feels very committed to how long your hair should be. Because hair represents femininity and it should be long and and, you know, luscious or whatever. And every once in a while, I'll go cut it. And one day, I cut it off completely. I had a pixie cut, essentially like something that.
33:47 Esther Perel? A fuck you cut.
33:48 Speaker 03 A fuck you cut, exactly. A fuck you cut. I did it because I wanted it and I didn't ask for permission or, you know, anything.
33:57 Esther Perel? And that delayed your prospects of marriage by how many years?
34:02 Speaker 03 Well, considering I'm still not married pending.
34:06 Speaker 03 I I think it was a big fuck you to the family, to the expectations, to my mom's expectations of me, the culture, all of it. And I felt like, so here's a rebellious act that says fuck you, and now I'm gonna bring them on to my side. I'm gonna say it's just hair, it grows back, I'm young, I'm too young to be married anyway. And so I I go on this campaign.
34:38 Speaker 03 And then sometimes they do come around. And, you know.
34:42 Esther Perel? I acted out, but I am a good girl.
34:45 Speaker 03 Yes.
34:45 Esther Perel? And a good daughter.
34:46 Speaker 03 Yes.
34:46 Esther Perel? Anyway. I had an act of rebellion, but I'm still loyal, beautiful.
34:55 Speaker 03 Yes. Breaks my heart. But yes, that's been the pattern.
35:09 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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37:11 Esther Perel? Is your partner from the same culture?
37:13 Speaker 03 No.
37:15 Speaker 03 He's black.
37:17 Esther Perel? And how has the family received that? Not the fact that he's black as much as the fact that he's not from the culture, it's both?
37:23 Speaker 03 It's both.
37:26 Speaker 03 My parents wanted me to have an arranged marriage for early in my twenties. That perception slowly changed as I think they just got more aware of what dating is like. And so they sat me and my brother down, maybe in our mid twenties, to say, you can marry, date whoever you want. But I think that whoever you want had parentheses of, you know, what's accepted. I don't think they expected me to bring home a black man. My dad never really voiced an opinion, but I think my mom was shocked.
38:03 Speaker 03 Yeah. And
38:07 Speaker 03 I essentially told her, I understand your feelings towards it, but it's not mine to carry with you. I can't help you process that.
38:18 Speaker 03 And she did it, I guess, probably with the help of my brother. She probably sourced it over there. My extended family doesn't know that I'm dating anybody.
38:31 Esther Perel? Why is that?
38:33 Speaker 03 I have to go back a little. When we moved to America, my paternal grandparents thought that was a big mistake, especially to raise a daughter in America. So much so that they sent a newspaper clipping of Girls Gone Wild to my parents to say, this is the future you've established for her. I think what is considered honorable is moving, changing within the community and within my family, you know, dating is okay, but let's get married. And if we're on the track to marriage, then we'll tell people.
39:21 Speaker 03 But I think it's mostly her. She doesn't wanna share yet.
39:24 Esther Perel? It would be the same if it was an Indian man?
39:27 Speaker 03 No, it would not be.
39:31 Esther Perel? So let's put the dots where they belong.
39:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:35 Esther Perel? Here's another one.
39:37 Speaker 03 Hmm.
39:38 Esther Perel? Mom, I very much can see the bind that you are in.
39:44 Esther Perel? On the one hand, you wanna give me the freedom that you know I need, and that raising your children in America entails. And on the other end, you don't want your wicked in-laws to tell you that you failed and they were right all along. I see the bind, and I have a lot of respect for how you have to deal with it.
40:09 Speaker 03 Hmm.
40:10 Esther Perel? Period.
40:11 Speaker 03 Hmm.
40:15 Speaker 03 I'll tell you what I'm thinking.
40:18 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
40:20 Speaker 03 Usually, when I make a decision that they don't agree with. And it's not that they don't agree, but maybe they have some apprehension about how other people feel about it.
40:32 Speaker 03 I have to coach them on what to say.
40:34 Esther Perel? Yes.
40:37 Speaker 03 And so, to not do that would be great.
40:42 Esther Perel? So basically, what should your mom say to the extended family in order for the extended family not to berate her, to put her down, to criticize her, to feel threatened? Because everybody is supposed to participate in the maintaining of the status quo. That is part of the collectivist culture.
41:01 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm.
41:02 Esther Perel? Okay? If you approached her with this, "I see the bind you're in,
41:09 Esther Perel? and you have so much experience with this bind.
41:12 Speaker 03 Hmm.
41:13 Esther Perel? It's been thirty years, you navigate this." I don't nearly have that kind of experience.
41:19 Esther Perel? My experience is about doing the things I want and not having to feel too guilty
41:23 Speaker 03 Hmm.
41:24 Esther Perel? for putting you in the bind, but I don't know how to handle the bind.
41:30 Esther Perel? It's like I need to behave a certain way so that you can stand proud in front of the people that stayed in India and told you not to come. Or any other situation like that. It's constantly intergenerational. And we're only addressing three.
41:44 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:45 Esther Perel? There may be more.
41:46 Speaker 03 Right.
41:47 Esther Perel? So if you say, you know, I have a lot of respect for the kind of complexities that you have to deal with. Period. Nothing else. Then what? Play it with me.
42:02 Speaker 03 She'll get anxious.
42:03 Esther Perel? Yeah, she'll say.
42:05 Speaker 03 Well, she's, she'll say, I don't know what to say. I don't wanna put, I don't wanna have that conversation.
42:11 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm. I don't blame you. Yeah, they're not always very understanding. They don't live between two cultures the way we do. And for them, things are more clear. I don't blame you. Period.
42:25 Speaker 03 Hmm.
42:27 Esther Perel? You should ask, to ask ChatGPT. We should have the chat right now comparing notes with us. You know?
42:35 Speaker 03 I, I don't think I ever thought that not doing something was an option.
42:41 Esther Perel? I know that. But you're doing something. You're just not doing the thing that you have been assigned and have gotten used and have taken on to consistently do. You're doing something. You're actually, what it's called in jargon, you're actually doing a slight differentiation from her. This is your dilemma. And there's not a word I've said that isn't true. She has more experience than you.
43:11 Speaker 03 Right. Yeah.
43:12 Esther Perel? This is her dilemma. This is their dilemma. I'm sure you and Dad will discuss and find the right way to approach this. I want my partner choice to be celebrated.
43:28 Speaker 03 It feels like a more peaceful stance.
43:32 Esther Perel? I understand that it's hard for you, Mom, to tell them how happy you are for me.
43:38 Esther Perel? And I understand how hard it may be for you to tell me that you can't tell me you're happy for me because you're constantly having to deal with the voices from abroad.
43:50 Speaker 03 Yeah.
43:51 Esther Perel? That's a dilemma. I hope that by the time we make a decision, you find a way to come around.
44:01 Esther Perel? Meaning, you speak to her like an adult.
44:06 Esther Perel? It's the same as when people have decided that someone is an income poop.
44:12 Esther Perel? You know, they've decided this person is incompetent, so they all the time talk to their incompetence.
44:19 Speaker 03 Me, I'm doing that.
44:21 Esther Perel? They don't talk to the whole person.
44:23 Speaker 03 Yeah. And I think I feel bad about the person that I am when I'm confronted with it. Like, I don't see
44:34 Speaker 03 her whole. I definitely see the deficiency, and then I'm frustrated. And then I'm frustrated with the person that I am in that moment.
44:42 Esther Perel? Yeah. But your mom has, you know, thirty years of experience. So, you know, it's a whole journey.
44:50 Speaker 03 Yeah.
44:51 Esther Perel? In a way, you've all been convinced by the fears. But the fears live in a larger frame. There's a lot of other things about this woman. And the invitation is for you to speak to the whole person.
45:09 Speaker 03 I like that.
45:10 Esther Perel? She says, "I don't know what to say." I say, "Yes, those are difficult conversations to have."
45:17 Esther Perel? You don't jump in and instantly offer whatever she needs to say because you don't actually have a clue.
45:24 Esther Perel? It's never been your dilemma. You don't really know what to say. I mean, yes, you can come up with all kinds of smart things. You're very smart. But in effect...
45:37 Esther Perel? She knows more about it than you.
45:40 Speaker 03 I don't think I've ever known any of the right things.
45:44 Speaker 03 With what she's going through, I'm guessing at best.
45:49 Esther Perel? So you just said, nobody knows this as well as you. Now. This becau- this, this is not always gonna be received, oh, thank you, that is so nice. Because you're, you're loosening a pattern. And all you need to do is focus on your part of the pattern.
46:08 Speaker 03 Okay.
46:10 Esther Perel? And stay consistent and kind.
46:13 Speaker 03 Hmm.
46:13 Esther Perel? And respectful and loving. We're not in a confrontation here.
46:17 Speaker 03 Right.
46:20 Speaker 03 What if? She can't get what she needs from me and then tries to get it from somewhere else within the family, maybe brother, dad.
46:31 Esther Perel? That's her choice?
46:32 Speaker 03 Yeah.
46:34 Esther Perel? You're not there to be the conductor if she.
46:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
46:37 Esther Perel? She should be asking her husband.
46:39 Speaker 03 Right.
46:39 Esther Perel? Why not? He's the partner.
46:41 Speaker 03 Right.
46:43 Esther Perel? And you can say, I'm sure that you will find the right resources.
46:48 Speaker 03 Hmm.
46:49 Esther Perel? To help you figure this out. I wish I could tell you, I don't know.
46:57 Esther Perel? Now, what's different is that you're not saying, I wish you didn't ask me.
47:05 Speaker 03 Hmm.
47:07 Esther Perel? Or you're not saying, why should I be the one to tell you? Every time you come to me, you think I have any idea? I don't know anything there. You.
47:15 Speaker 03 Right.
47:15 Esther Perel? No, there's no need to react.
47:17 Speaker 03 Yeah.
47:17 Esther Perel? Because what you're doing is you're disengaging.
47:20 Speaker 03 Yeah.
47:23 Speaker 03 Esther, this is gonna be life changing.
47:26 Esther Perel? Well, you let me know. I don't know, I hope.
47:29 Speaker 03 Alright.
47:30 Esther Perel? It's step, step, huh?
47:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, at least my own, like, I get caught up in this, like, pattern over and over again. And I play the same part and she plays the same part.
47:41 Esther Perel? Correct, correct. And we start, I mean, you know, there are many ways to approach this. We could do a whole analysis of it, we could try to understand it, we could look at the attachment story. I think today I thought when I listened to your question, I would wanna start with actually.
48:01 Esther Perel? Diluting the rigidity of the interaction.
48:06 Speaker 03 Right.
48:07 Esther Perel? And suggesting some tools that allow you to respond not from the reactive place in which you either resent, angry, guilty, feel bad about you, feel bad about her. It's set already, that has taken thirty years too. So, how do you speak to an adult? And how do you not perform false confidence? Because you are afraid that if you don't instantly step in, she will be all alone.
48:42 Speaker 03 Yeah.
48:44 Esther Perel? And so, as a result, you are weeping, feeling all alone yourself. Nobody needs to be all alone.
48:53 Speaker 03 Right.
48:54 Esther Perel? One doesn't compensate for the other.
48:58 Esther Perel? And at some point, you'll have a conversation with your father, if that's possible.
49:04 Speaker 03 What do I say?
49:07 Esther Perel? As I start another life for myself, as I have my own relationship.
49:16 Esther Perel? You're going to be more needed in the house. We are about to go through another transition, married or not married, it doesn't matter.
49:25 Speaker 03 Yeah.
49:27 Esther Perel? I stepped in when you were off and gone. At this moment, you will step in, as I am about to step out a little more.
49:39 Speaker 03 Yeah. I hadn't thought of that. I felt like everyone was burdened already, let me do my part to unburden some people.
49:50 Esther Perel? You can do that. The goal is not to never do that. You'll do that too, but you won't be caught.
49:59 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:00 Esther Perel? You can blend duty and choice.
50:04 Speaker 03 I hadn't thought that. As an option either. I think right now, I, I choose and then I justify the choice.
50:15 Speaker 03 Thank you so much. This has been really eye-opening. And I felt like we were in this like stuck space and you just kind of like added a jiggle and we're unstuck.
50:28 Esther Perel? Thank you so much.
50:29 Speaker 03 Thank you. Take care.
50:31 Esther Perel? You too. Bye-bye.
50:46 Speaker 09 This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?
51:31 Speaker 09 Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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52:14 Speaker 07 Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger: Fresh for Everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.
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