Spaghetti Westerns! A Primer

Who do you think of when you think of Spaghetti Westerns? Because Sergio Leone thinks of... Akira Kurosawa? In this week's primer, Chris & Lizzie dive into the Eurocentric Western revival of the 60's and 70's, how it saved Clint Eastwood's career, drew the scorn of American critics, and gave birth to some of the most stylish movies ever made. This episode is brought to you by Brami. Shop Brami at enjoybrami.com or your nearest retailer, and find their newest shape Cubetti exclusively at Whole Foods. Plus, we're giving away exclusive What Went Wrong x Brami kits! Enter at whatwentbrami.com for your chance to win. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:16Chris Winterbauer?

  Hello, dear listeners. Before we dive in to today's episode, we have some exciting news. As you know, if you read the episode title, this is a bonus primer, primer, primer, primer, primer, on Sergio Leone, king of the spaghetti western. And we're able to bring you this anti-pasto today, thanks to, well, spaghetti. Today's episode is brought to you by Brahmi, pasta made in Italy from just two old world ingredients, Italian wheat and lupini super beans. No fillers, no shortcuts, just real pasta that tastes like real pasta, with more protein and fiber built right in. Pasta perfetta. We were fans of Brahmi long before they sponsored this podcast. So when they came to us and said, hey, we make great pasta, and we think you could make a great episode about spaghetti westerns, we said, assolutamente sì.

• 1:00Chris Winterbauer?

  And then we asked for forgiveness from all of our Italian fans. Now, you might think, yes, we get it. They make spaghetti. Leone made spaghetti westerns. But the connection actually goes deeper than that. Leone wasn't born in America, but he was obsessed with American westerns. He loved what he saw, but he also knew he could make them a little more stylish, a little more italiano. Brahmi's founder wasn't born in Italy, but he is obsessed with the way Italy eats. Fewer ingredients, better quality. So Brami made a new kind of pasta, full of protein and fiber, that is still so delicious, it's worth slowing down for. More from Brami later in the episode, including something new they're launching this summer. But first, let's talk about the man most synonymous with the reinvention of the western, Italian style. Lizzie, welcome back to another episode of What Went Wrong. Are you familiar with spaghetti westerns?

• 1:45Lizzie Bassett?

  Chris, I had never seen a spaghetti western before in my damn life, before we decided to do these episodes.

• 1:52Chris Winterbauer?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:53Lizzie Bassett?

  Which is an embarrassment. I should have seen them. I think I had in my head that I didn't like westerns. And then we watched The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, which spoiler alert, we will be covering on Monday. And I will withhold my thoughts until then. But in case you can't tell, I loved it. And then I thought about it, and I was like, wait a minute. I loved 310 to Yuma, I loved True Grit, I loved this. I've loved many westerns. I think I just don't like John Wayne. Is what I've learned. And so I'd avoided some of the genre because of that.

• 2:25Chris Winterbauer?

  And these movies are very much a response to, in a sense, John Wayne. And there's another movement, the revisionist Western that happens in the United States, kind of concurrent to this. You also have acid westerns, something like Yodorowsky's El Topo, for example. So there's a lot of variation within the genre, to be fair. But yes, it was a dusty, staid genre before one Sergio Leone, and as we'll learn, many, many, many more people, not just him, not just him as a director, and also not just him on his movies. These are deeply collaborative projects. Came to redefine these movies in some really fun and specific ways.

• 3:06Chris Winterbauer?

  And I think have continued to, these movies have continued to influence a lot of filmmakers. Obviously, you have someone like Quentin Tarantino, who's very vocal in the way in which he expresses his admiration for these movies in Leone as a filmmaker, and also the ways in which it's influenced him. But as we'll discuss, I think a lot, there are many, many more directors who I think this has deeply influenced. And I have a couple of examples that come to mind.

• 3:28Lizzie Bassett?

  Definitely.

• 3:28Chris Winterbauer?

  And some music that I think these movies and Ennio Morricone is very much influenced as well.

• 3:33Lizzie Bassett?

  First of all, I was so surprised by how funny this genre is, while also being very exciting, very, you know, at times scary and violent. Absolutely see the Quentin Tarantino influence just immediately as soon as the titles start to roll. But it's so stylish. It seems like such an incongruous mix to have, you know, Italian style taking on this most staid American genre. And yet it works so well. And it just makes the whole thing so much more fun.

• 4:06Chris Winterbauer?

  So let's get into it. So in preparation, as you mentioned, Lizzy, for The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, which we were covering on Monday, the third film in the Dollars trilogy. We need to figure out, what is a spaghetti western? How did this phenomenon start? What did it represent? How long did it last? When did it peak? We're going to get into all of it today. So briefly, what is a spaghetti western? As you mentioned, Lizzy, it's very funny, often, very violent.

• 4:30Chris Winterbauer?

  Very violent for the time, highly stylized, morally ambiguous, and affordable. Very low budget. These movies were very affordable compared to their American counterparts.

• 4:39Lizzie Bassett?

  Is that why no one's mouth matches what they're saying over the entire movie? Including the Americans?

• 4:44Chris Winterbauer?

  They did not shoot with sync sound. And so that was done partially for budgetary reasons, and also partially because they knew this is a very international cast, and they were just gonna dub everybody in every possible language after the fact. And we'll get into some issues that creates.

• 4:58Lizzie Bassett?

  I have one other thing I wanna call out about, at the very least, The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, which is that I just love that every time it cuts away to a crowd, it's full of like, the most handsome Italian.

• 5:09Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

• 5:11Lizzie Bassett?

  And it's just like, sir, those men were not.

• 5:13Chris Winterbauer?

  They're playing the American soldiers, they're playing the Mexican outlaws, they're playing everybody.

• 5:18Lizzie Bassett?

  And they're gorgeous. There's like, full-on models. That guy who's dying that Clint Eastwood puts his coat over. Anyway, they're very beautiful.

• 5:25Chris Winterbauer?

  The captain, yeah, at the end, yes. What I think the name Spaghetti Western belies is the simple fact that they comprise, in my opinion, one of the most important and influential subgenres in the history of film. And I would argue, feature some of the greatest movies ever made. And we're gonna talk about one of those on Monday, but there are a few others. And many, although not all of these movies, were directed by Italians, hence the spaghetti of it all. Now, we were not able to confirm the origin of the name Spaghetti Western, but one widely reported claim is that it was coined by a Spanish journalist, Alfonso Sanchez Martinez. So, again, not just Italians involved in this process.

• 6:06Chris Winterbauer?

  And as we'll get into, many of these Spaghetti Westerns were filmed in Spain, not Italy, including The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. Now, many were Italian-Spanish co-productions, some were even directed by Spaniards, and the cast and crews came from all over the world, as you have mentioned, Lizzie. Now, we call an international horror movie a horror movie, so why not just call these Westerns?

• 6:28Lizzie Bassett?

  You can't, because it is an American genre about the American West that you are then infusing with a whole entirely other style and culture.

• 6:38Chris Winterbauer?

  So yeah, as you just pointed out so perfectly, westerns are viewed as intrinsically American. And there are a lot of people at the time who did feel that spaghetti westerns were trampling on the great myth of the American frontier.

• 6:49Lizzie Bassett?

  Which is what? Which is not nothing good.

• 6:53Chris Winterbauer?

  That these gunslingers were morally right.

• 6:56Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh.

• 6:57Chris Winterbauer?

  You know, they only killed when necessary. We'll get into some of the hallmarks of the genre and I think what this exposed.

• 7:03Lizzie Bassett?

  Okay.

• 7:03Chris Winterbauer?

  These foreign westerns, though, created new tropes in American movies. They created, as we'll learn, new American movie stars that did not exist beforehand. And they inspired many generations of American directors. Over in Italy and Spain, they made a lot of money and they created a lot of jobs, including in a region that you discussed recently on one of your episodes, Almeria, Lizzie.

• 7:27Lizzie Bassett?

  And Lawrence of Arabia.

• 7:28Chris Winterbauer?

  That's right. Now, they are synonymous with the name of one man. Lizzie, who is the first person that comes to mind when somebody says spaghetti western?

• 7:37Lizzie Bassett?

  Sergio Leone.

• 7:39Chris Winterbauer?

  Sergio Leone, who if you've ever seen a photo of him, it's great. He's just, he's the most interesting looking guy. He's got these Coke bottle glasses. He was not the only man behind the spaghetti western. And I don't think technically he was the first, but he's our star. And we're going to get to him after we take a short detour to Japan.

• 8:01Chris Winterbauer?

  So Lizzie, this episode was set up by Seven Samurai, which we covered earlier in the year. And as we discussed, director Akira Kurosawa was enjoying international recognition in the early 1960s. And one of his major influences was American director John Ford, who, as you know, had been making westerns since the silent era. As Kurosawa put it, "Since humans are weak, they want to see good people and great heroes." Westerns have been done over and over again, and in the process, a kind of grammar has evolved. "I have learned this grammar of the Western." And his films were starting to influence the West. We talked about Rochamont, and then key to our story, Seven Samurai had made it to the Oscars. Seven Samurai was then remade by John Sturgis under Kurosawa's original title.

• 8:43Lizzie Bassett?

  The Magnificent Seven.

• 8:44Chris Winterbauer?

  The Magnificent Seven. Now, you would assume that Kurosawa, a devotee of the Western, must have been thrilled. Lizzie, he was not thrilled with The Magnificent Seven. In 1966, he told a journalist that the movie was, quote, "A disappointment, although entertaining." It is not a version of The Seven Samurai. I do not know why they call it that. And the New York Times agreed. They called it "a pallid, pretentious, overlong reflection of the Japanese original."

• 9:07Lizzie Bassett?

  Well, now, hold on there, partner, there's seven of them.

• 9:10Chris Winterbauer?

  American audiences were also lukewarm. The Magnificent Seven is seen more or less as a classic today, but it reportedly eked out just $2.25 million domestically against basically a budget of the same amount. Compare that to John Wayne, for example, The Alamo, I believe of roughly the same year, which pulled in nearly $8 million, although on a budget of $12 million, to be fair. So that one lost money.

• 9:32Lizzie Bassett?

  I want to clarify with my John Wayne hatred. He's very good in True Grit. That's the only thing I really do like him in, and he is great in that. But, and I understand the movie star quality, it's just that he sucks. Continue.

• 9:44Chris Winterbauer?

  He does. According to one estimate, roughly a third of the films made in the United States through the 1950s had been Westerns. But, Lizzie, the times, they were a changin'. In the 40s and 50s, Hollywood pumped out 100 Westerns a year, more or less. In the 60s, that number was closer to 20. Now, Lizzie, where had the Western gone? Where could you still see images of the frontier and cowpokes and cowboys and cows? Lots of cows.

• 10:13Lizzie Bassett?

  Kansas? I don't know, Texas.

• 10:15Chris Winterbauer?

  Television.

• 10:15Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, television.

• 10:18Chris Winterbauer?

  Rollin', rollin', rollin'.

• 10:20Lizzie Bassett?

  Keep them doggies rollin'.

• 10:22Chris Winterbauer?

  It was an infestation, according to TV critics. In a 1960 issue of Television Age Magazine, a letter from the publisher read, "No television critic worthy of the name can let a week go by without saying at least once that the thing wrong with television today is too many westerns." Bonanza, Rawhide, Gunsmoke, Maverick, the TV programs with the biggest total and average audiences in 1960 were westerns. Over the previous four years, the number of westerns on network TV had gone from three to 27. I mean, it's the Taylor Sheridan effect.

• 10:52Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 10:52Chris Winterbauer?

  In 1960. Paramount.

• 10:54Lizzie Bassett?

  We're doing it again.

• 10:55Chris Winterbauer?

  We're just gonna do Dutton Ranch, then it's Dutton Ranch's ADU, then it's Dutton Ranch Down by the Creek.

• 11:01Lizzie Bassett?

  I watched Dutton Ranch, I watched The Madison, which is basically that. Kinda liked it.

• 11:06Chris Winterbauer?

  It's all that. By 1959, the ratings bonanza had started to trend down. Some critics said that the novelty of adult cowboys and Indians stories was finally starting to wear off, maybe in the United States, but not in Europe. Across the pond, Magnificent Seven was a hit, and European directors were making their own westerns. Now, this was hardly new. There were European westerns as far back as the silent era. In fact, there are some historians who argue that the first western was not The Great Train Robbery, which was made in 1903 in the United States, but an 1899 British production called Kidnapping by Indians, which was filmed in England, so probably didn't happen there. There were also Italian western operas in the early 1900s, and one early Italian western

• 11:51Chris Winterbauer?

  called La Vampira Indiana, The Vampire of Indiana, was directed by Roberto Roberti, which is a pseudonym of Vincenzo Leone.

• 12:02Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh.

• 12:03Chris Winterbauer?

  And also featured Biche Walleran, or Valerian, I also read, the stage name of, and I apologize for the pronunciation, Edvige Maria Valkarengi, I think that's right, the parents of Lucy.

• 12:18Lizzie Bassett?

  Sergio Leone.

• 12:20Chris Winterbauer?

  Yes. Back to this nepo baby in a moment. So by the 1950s, there were a lot of Italian parodies of American westerns, like The Terror of Oklahoma. So you mentioned the comedic effects in these movies. A lot of these, they were also leaning all the way into parody as well. So there was a real streak of humor through a lot of these films. And it wasn't just Italy. There was a series of German Yugoslav co-productions about a fictional native character named Winnetou, based on novels by famed German author Carl May. These are very culturally insensitive by today's standards, just a fair warning. There was also a series of Spanish-French westerns based on the legend of Zorro, The Shadow of Zorro, Zorro and the Court of Spain, The Three Swords of Zorro, and then also Duel at the Rio Grande. Zorro was apparently there.

• 13:05Chris Winterbauer?

  One key to these productions, you could pass off locations across Europe as the American West, or as the Middle East, as we learned in Lawrence of Arabia.

• 13:16Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, as you mentioned, Lizzie, many of these spots in Italy and recently Spain were best known for doubling as North Africa, the Middle East, in the Sword and Sandal or Peplum films of the time. We covered Ben-Hur, which was shot at Cinacchita Studios in Rome, but also Quovadis, which we also talked about. And it just so happens that both of those productions were productions that a young Sergio Leone worked on in his early twenties. And it's on the set of a similar epic where we're going to pick back up with the star of our story. He's just been fired for the most Italian, or maybe Spanish, reason ever, taking a long lunch. The movie was Sodom and Gomorrah, directed by Robert Aldrich.

• 14:00Chris Winterbauer?

  And Leone was working as a second unit director. They were filming in Morocco. Robert Aldrich claims that one day, he dropped in on Leone unannounced and was, quote, "greeted with the sight of 5,000 to 6,000 people, all of whom were taking a three-hour lunch break. I waited for three hours at the top of a sand dune, nothing happened. Then another three hours, still nothing. I called him over and said, get your air ticket and go back home, you're through." To which I said, Aldrich, you just waited for six hours without saying anything? What are we doing? Leoni disputes this claim. He says he quit after the budget ballooned and he decided he could no longer, quote, "continue to associate himself with such a disaster." As we will learn, he is not a super reliable narrator. Keep that in mind. The truth is,

• 14:44Chris Winterbauer?

  the job had been a bit of a step backwards. So between 1949 and 59, Leoni had worked as an assistant director or a second unit director on dozens of movies. He was a second unit director on Helen of Troy, directed by Robert Wise, which also featured battle and action sequences directed by Raul Walsh. High Sierra and the Cagney movie White Heat, you might remember, those were kind of his two big films. Now, Leoni saw Walsh as a master of the Western. He directed a number of Western films, but every time he tried to bring up the Western with Walsh, Walsh would say, "The Western is finished." And Leoni was distraught. He was so depressed that he had to watch masters like Walsh and William Wyler, quote, "sacrificed themselves to the taste of the moment by making Peplum films." He was obsessed with America. He's like, "Why aren't you guys making movies

• 15:28Chris Winterbauer?

  about America?" He said that he'd read everything he could about, quote, "the conquest of the West," and yet he was obliged to spend his time making films set in tatty versions of antiquity. "While I organized chariot races, sea battles, and explosions on galleys, I was silently dreaming of Nevada and New Mexico."

• 15:44Lizzie Bassett?

  Fair. Both beautiful.

• 15:46Chris Winterbauer?

  But there was no escaping the Peplum films. He stepped in to direct The Last Days of Pompeii, when the original director got sick, and then he made his directorial debut in 1961 on The Colossus of Rhodes, another Peplum film. He's approaching his mid-30s, he's 13 years into a career that seems to be going kind of nowhere. He just got fired by a director he admired, and he was supposed to have a leg up. As I mentioned, Lizzie, he was a nepo baby. His mom was an actress. His dad made movies. His dad made a Western. So he's got no projects on the horizon, and he starts to flesh out a new story idea. He wants to do sort of The Magnificent Seven set in Rome. Until one night in 1963, he goes to a theater with his wife Carla and sees a movie that would change his life

• 16:30Chris Winterbauer?

  and the history of cinema, Akira Kurosawa's Yojimbo.

• 16:34Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, yes.

• 16:35Chris Winterbauer?

  Lizzie, have you ever seen Yojimbo?

• 16:37Lizzie Bassett?

  Yes, I have.

• 16:38Chris Winterbauer?

  The IMDb logline reads, "A crafty Ronin," as you know, played by Toshido Mifune, "comes to a town divided by two criminal gangs and decides to play them against each other to free the town." Now, Yojimbo, which I just rewatched for this episode, has a lot of elements of Western storytelling and Westerns themselves, including a standoff at High Noon, basically, you know, at the end of a long street in the middle of this town. But unlike the typical Western, the lead is somewhat complex. He's a bit of an anti-hero. He doesn't have a name. Yojimbo means bodyguard. The Samurai called himself Kuabatake Sanjuro, which means thirty-year-old man Mulberryfield. He just randomly chooses that name when he's looking at the window at one point in the movie. And New Yorker critic Pauline Kael was particularly enthusiastic about Yojimbo.

• 17:22Lizzie Bassett?

  Which is unusual for Pauline Kael.

• 17:24Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, she felt that US Westerns had gone stale. They were full of cliches that had been awarded the status of myths. She said that the new Westerns being released were either infatuated tributes to these myths or mature versions that clobbered the audience with the message that the myths we never believed in anyway were false. She called out John Ford. She called out High Noon, which I liked.

• 17:45Lizzie Bassett?

  High Noon's good.

• 17:46Chris Winterbauer?

  She called out Henry Fonda. She also called out the Gunfighter, which I also liked. And she said, though, by her estimation, Yojimbo slashes the screen with action and liberates us from the pretensions of our serious Westerns, which I think is true. Yojimbo also has a good sense of humor to it. Now, Sergio Leone was well aware of the myths of the American Westerns. He had grown up imitating big Hollywood actors like Errol Flynn and Gary Cooper. And then at the end of World War II, real-life Americans arrived, and he was a bit disillusioned, too. According to Leone, "They were no longer the Americans of the West. They were soldiers like any other, with the sole difference that they were victorious soldiers, men who were materialistic, possessive, keen on pleasure and earthly goods. I could see nothing, or almost nothing,

• 18:28Chris Winterbauer?

  of the great prairies or of the demigods of my childhood." And I just get the sense that these soldiers were coming in and they were just hounding the Italian women and eating all their food. And Leone was thinking, "Where's Shane? Where are all the good guys from my childhood? You know, what's going on?"

• 18:42Lizzie Bassett?

  They're in Kansas.

• 18:44Chris Winterbauer?

  They're in Kansas. Now, like Pauline Kael, Leone fell in love with Yojimbo. By the time he and his wife Carla returned home from the movie theater, he knew the movie he wanted to make next. It wasn't The Magnificent Seven. It was Yojimbo. Well, kind of. And this is where the story gets a little complicated. Leoni claims he wanted to remake the book slash movie that was the inspiration for Yojimbo, which is a Dashal Hammett novel called The Glass Key, which had been made twice into movies in 35 and 42. And there are also similarities to another Dashal Hammett novel, Red Harvest. Some people claim that's incidental. I mean, all of these are a cheeky inversion of the, you know, no man can serve two masters sort of, you know, vibe from the Bible.

• 19:23Lizzie Bassett?

  Right.

• 19:24Chris Winterbauer?

  But Leoni decides, okay, I'm gonna make an Italian-Western adaptation of a Japanese Samurai adaptation of an American film noir novel. And this is how we get spaghetti westerns. It's great. C'est une peste. So there are a few versions of what happened next. We're gonna focus on Leoni's retelling. Take it with a grain of salt. He says that he and his friend, writer and director Dusio Tessari, wrote a treatment for this movie in five days. And then Leoni says he wrote the script in about two weeks. It's worth noting, there are six other writers credited on this movie. And some of them claim to have been much more involved, not just in the story and script, but even the initial idea to make an Italian-Western version of Yojimbo. So, we don't know necessarily if this was-

• 20:04Lizzie Bassett?

  Chris, let him live. Just let him do what he wants to do.

• 20:08Chris Winterbauer?

  Some people online, if you go on Reddit, will say that Leoni did a shot-for-shot remake of Yojimbo with this debut film. I watched these movies back-to-back. I don't think that's an accurate description, but he did lift a lot from Kurosawa's movie, including the entire basic structure, some key moments, definitely some key shots, but he made some important changes. So the location, so even though the time periods are actually roughly analogous, he changes it to the American West, he swaps in guns for swords, he beefs up certain roles, composites other. I think the villains, for example, in Leoni's film, which, if you guys haven't put it together, is a fistful of dollars, but we'll get there in a moment, are more focused. He adds references to Italian theater, the Old Testament, American

• 20:52Chris Winterbauer?

  westerns. He reworks the entire Third Act showdown. That being said, one of Leoni's friends, Django director Sergio Corbucci, who's one of the biggest directors of the spaghetti western era, remembers Leoni, quote, "slaving away at a movieola machine and copying Yojimbo, changing only the set- And details of the dialogue, basically transcribing the movie.

• 21:12Lizzie Bassett?

  Can I ask a dumb question?

• 21:14Chris Winterbauer?

  Please.

• 21:14Lizzie Bassett?

  As he's writing these, obviously, very American films, I'm assuming he does not speak English and he is writing them in Italian.

• 21:21Chris Winterbauer?

  He's writing them in Italian.

• 21:23Lizzie Bassett?

  Okay.

• 21:23Chris Winterbauer?

  Yep, these are all written in Italian and we'll get to translations, et cetera, especially on Monday.

• 21:28Lizzie Bassett?

  Okay.

• 21:29Chris Winterbauer?

  I will leave it to our audience, watch these movies back to back to determine how much Leone ripped off Yojimbo. I would say I agree quite a bit, although I don't think it's shot for shot. But what we do know is that the title Leone chose for his movie was cribbed from Kurosawa. Not The Magnificent Seven, but The Magnificent Stranger. So, Lizzie, if you've ever seen A Fistful of Dollars, you will know that the hero is the man with no name, or was later rebranded The Man With No Name, but originally, he did have a name. Joe. And Joe was gonna be played by an actor named Richard Harrison, who you probably don't know.

• 22:09Lizzie Bassett?

  It was so close to Richard Harris.

• 22:13Chris Winterbauer?

  He was not well-known in the US, but he looked the part. He's handsome, blonde, he was very thick, he was very strong. He'd acted, he was one of those, he was a beefcake, he was a 50s beefcake, absolutely, through and through. And he'd been in a bunch of Italian Sword and Sandals movies. Medusa Against the Son of Hercules, The Saracens, Gladiator Seven, The Invincible Gladiator.

• 22:30Lizzie Bassett?

  Gladiator Seven?

• 22:31Chris Winterbauer?

  There was no Gladiators 1 through 6.

• 22:33Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, okay.

• 22:34Chris Winterbauer?

  It was just Gladiator Seven, just to be clear. Now, these are B-movies, kind of C-movies, at best. But Harrison was the producer's choice because he fit the budget, and let's talk about the budget. Italian cinematographer Tonino Delicalli had considered investing in The Magnificent Stranger, but he got cold feet. Important to note, he would eventually be the cinematographer for The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. So Leone pitches the project to the Jolly Film Company, acting out every role for producer Franco Palagi, and he wins him over. So then the founders of that company, Giorgio Papi and Arrigo Colombo, decide to produce The Magnificent Stranger. But Jolly Film had already made at least one Italian western before called Gunfight in the Red Sands, which starred Richard Harrison.

• 23:18Chris Winterbauer?

  And these productions like to reuse their cast and crew as frequently as possible.

• 23:23Lizzie Bassett?

  Sure.

• 23:23Chris Winterbauer?

  Because then you can keep them on contract. By some accounts, this was the first Italian western to play the genre straight since the parody films had kind of taken over in the 50s. And it also featured a score, Lizzie, by Ennio Morricone. And it was lensed by cinematographer Massimo Dallamano. But it's missing the grit, the style, the brutality that the Spaghetti westerns will be known for. It's missing the Sergio Leone elements. So according to Tonino Valeri, an uncredited writer on The Magnificent Stranger, the producers didn't want Leone to direct. They had no faith in his abilities. Quote, "He had a reputation for being manic on the set, not sure of himself, and full of costly ideas." I think these things are all true. These movies needed to be made cheaply. Leone liked to do crazy things.

• 24:08Chris Winterbauer?

  But Palagi pushes for Leone and eventually the producers relent with some stipulations. They say, "First, we're going to make a western called Bullets Don't Argue. Then, when we're done with that western, which has more money than you, you're going to use all the same locations, all the same sets, most of the same crew, and as many of the actors as we can give you from that production," basically.

• 24:28Lizzie Bassett?

  Amazing.

• 24:28Chris Winterbauer?

  Why are they so stringent? Okay, so the Italian film industry is experiencing a downturn. Annual ticket sales are dropping. Movies like Sodom and Gomorrah and Cleopatra flop.

• 24:38Lizzie Bassett?

  Big time.

• 24:38Chris Winterbauer?

  So American productions are like, "We gotta get the fuck out of Italy right now. We gotta, we gotta get Elizabeth Taylor out of here. She is costing us so much money."

• 24:46Lizzie Bassett?

  Get her and her jets full of chili out of this country.

• 24:49Chris Winterbauer?

  According to historian Christopher Frayling, "The trade papers were full of references to the crisis in the industry. A crisis of confidence, where investors were concerned, of productivity, where distributors were concerned, and of creativity, where popular filmmakers were concerned. There were too many cinemas and not enough product to keep them going. They needed something new." But the Hollywood productions had left a lot behind. Spanish technicians trained to the highest Hollywood standards and studio space was suddenly available to these low-budget films. So this German production company that was behind- The first two very culturally insensitive Winnie the Pooh movies. Constantine film, which you probably recognize if you've watched Resident Evil recently. For example, they agree to help finance The Magnificent Stranger. Leoni's got six weeks to shoot it.

• 25:34Chris Winterbauer?

  He has a budget of roughly $200,000. And Richard Harrison, he's under contract at Jolly and he's going to cost roughly $20,000. But Leoni says, no, he wants one of the heroes of his childhood. He wants Henry Fonda.

• 25:53Lizzie Bassett?

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• 26:38Lizzie Bassett?

  And now they have a brand new shape, Cubetti, which is so good and normally really hard to find in the US. Bonus points, my daughter loves it too. Visit enjoybrami.com and find Brami at your nearest retailer and make sure you try all new Cubetti exclusively at your nearest Whole Foods. Brami, pasta perfetta.

• 27:00Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, Fonda had starred in three John Ford westerns in the 1940s that are very well regarded. The Oxbow Incident, My Darling Clementine, which is an OK Corral retelling, and Ford Apache. So Leoni sends an English translation of the script to Hollywood. And I want to emphasize, I don't know how comprehensible this English translation was because of the comments that are about to fall.

• 27:21Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah, there's no Google Translate that you can enter this into.

• 27:24Chris Winterbauer?

  Fonda's agent doesn't even show him the script. He just says, there's absolutely no way my client is going to do this. He's out. So Leoni decides, okay, maybe I can get one of the actors from The Magnificent Seven. James Coburn and Charles Bronson. So he sends it to Charles Bronson and Bronson says, this script is terrible. I cannot, this script is terrible. He later said he didn't realize that the script doesn't matter. What matters is how Leoni is going to direct it. But he

• 27:51Lizzie Bassett?

  Well, there's no way to know that really at that point.

• 27:53Chris Winterbauer?

  No. Coburn apparently actually said yes. But the lowest price he would do it for was $25,000 and the producer said, no way. We can get Richard Harrison for 20. It's not worth it. Leoni may have then considered Cliff Robertson, who we've discussed before. Uncle Ben in the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man trilogy, the Sam Raimi trilogy.

• 28:14Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 28:14Chris Winterbauer?

  He was actually at this point more of a television actor, more known as a television actor. But he was also considered too expensive. They also said, just use Rod Cameron, the star of Bullets Don't Argue, which we just shot. He'll do the movies back to back, but he was too expensive. Also, he was in his mid 50s.

• 28:31Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah, you need someone a little more spry.

• 28:33Chris Winterbauer?

  They then thought about Rory Calhoun, who'd done 79 episodes as the lead of The Texan, a Western TV show, but he turned down the part. So nobody wants to do this movie. And then finally, someone sends a reel of the American TV Western Rawhide to the William Morris Agency in Rome. An agent there, Claudia Sartori, passes it along to Jolly Films and says, there's a young, lanky actor that you guys might want to consider.

• 29:00Lizzie Bassett?

  I just love the idea of like the most stylish agent at the William Morris Agency in Rome being like, I have to watch this reel of Rawhide.

• 29:08Chris Winterbauer?

  It's also so boring.

• 29:10Lizzie Bassett?

  I know. I've seen Rawhide. I've seen it.

• 29:14Chris Winterbauer?

  Lizzie, which actor is she speaking of?

• 29:16Lizzie Bassett?

  Clint Eastwood.

• 29:18Chris Winterbauer?

  Clint? Flint?

• 29:19Lizzie Bassett?

  Clint. Squinty eye. Very handsome. God, he is really handsome though. I forgot. Uh, when I started watching this, I was like, damn.

• 29:30Chris Winterbauer?

  And Sergio Leone said, "No, thank you." And Sartori pushed back and she said, "You have to be realistic, Sergio, if you ever want to get your movie made." So they sit down and they put the reel on.

• 29:40Lizzie Bassett?

  Look at how he squints.

• 29:41Chris Winterbauer?

  The episode is called "Incident of the Black Sheep." It is the seventh episode of the fourth season. If you guys want to watch it, I believe it's available on Pluto TV online. That's where I watched it. Halfway through, Sergio walked out. And halfway through, I turned it off. Apparently, he said, "This man with a vacant look on his face in an unwatchable film about cows? To be fair, he has a vacant look on his face, and it is an unwatchable episode of television about cows."

• 30:07Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah, most of Rawhide was.

• 30:10Chris Winterbauer?

  It's just, it's a soap opera without that much drama.

• 30:12Lizzie Bassett?

  I know, but great theme song.

• 30:15Chris Winterbauer?

  It does have a great theme song, which Morikawa is like riffing off of, you know, in these movies.

• 30:20Lizzie Bassett?

  And also, it's all tied together, folks. That'll, that'll come back on next week's episode.

• 30:25Chris Winterbauer?

  I'm excited. So Sartori told Leone, Eastwood was on his way up in America. Maybe by the time this film is over, he'll be worth a lot more. I, I don't think this was actually true. By the time they watched this reel, Rawhide's Nielsen ratings had peaked and were actually in decline, and Eastwood had basically no success to speak of in the feature film world.

• 30:46Lizzie Bassett?

  And how old was he?

• 30:48Chris Winterbauer?

  He was already in his 30s.

• 30:49Lizzie Bassett?

  Okay, that's what I thought, because he looks older by the time he's in these.

• 30:53Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, and by the time he landed Rawhide, he was almost 30, and he actually felt like the part was too young for him. And he's clean shaven in Rawhide, too, so he doesn't have the right look. But it does seem like he's playing almost a teenager in a sense in Rawhide, the way his character acts. So I understand why he didn't want to do this. It's also been said that they wanted Eric Fleming, his co-star, who's older than him, on Rawhide for the part, but that Fleming turned down the role. And I should also mention that Richard Harrison has many a time claimed that he actually turned down the role in... Fistful of dollars in Magnificent Stranger and that he recommended Eastwood. I could not find anything to verify that beyond Richard Harrison's claim. And the main story I've seen has been the Claudia Sartori, William Morris, you know, version.

• 31:38Chris Winterbauer?

  But it's possible that all of these things are true. The point is, unlike his character in The Magnificent Stranger, Eastwood came cheap. So he was an easy yes for the producers. So like, great, get this American in here. But not for Leone and not for Eastwood. On the one hand, he felt stifled by Rawhide creatively and professionally. He complained that his TV contract prevented him from accepting movie roles. And for years, he was basically shooting six days a week making the show.

• 32:03Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Chris Winterbauer?

  And he was really bored of the clean cut image. He claims to have also had the same idea as Leone when he'd seen Yojimbo, thinking that this would make a great Western. But even so, when his agent first pitched the idea, Eastwood was planning to enjoy a month off of work. So the last thing he wanted to do was go to Rome to film a Western in Italy. But his agent said, look, I promised the agent in Rome that you'd at least read the script. So he sits down, he reads the script and he says, this is either going to work well or it's going to be awful. Turns out it was both. So The Magnificent Stranger was filmed in the spring and early summer of 1964 in Spain and Italy. We're going to give this movie its own episode, so I'm not going to go into the details. But it was a bumpy ride. A couple of highlights. There were cash flow issues, no surprise. At one point, Eastwood walked off set and told everybody they could find him at the airport,

• 32:49Chris Winterbauer?

  which Leone couldn't even understand because Eastwood didn't speak Italian and Leone didn't speak English. It was an international production. There were four versions of the script. English, Italian, German and Spanish. And this was one reason that the film was shot silent and dubbed later.

• 33:04Lizzie Bassett?

  Okay.

• 33:04Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, some who saw the dailies thought the shoot was going terribly and that Leone didn't know what he was doing. Others actually thought Eastwood's performance was really good. But what was clear to everyone was that Leone was not making your typical Hollywood or even Italian Western. Lizzie, he directed by physically acting out everybody's parts.

• 33:21Lizzie Bassett?

  To be fair, if you don't speak the same language, you don't really have many other options there. How are you supposed to communicate what you want them to do?

• 33:30Chris Winterbauer?

  But that's why I think so much of this movie is based on pretty cool physicality and like physical humor and, you know, stylized camera movements and that because Leoni is only able to communicate through physical movement.

• 33:41Lizzie Bassett?

  Right. And also, you know, obviously, we've heard time and time again, actors do not like line readings and I totally understand.

• 33:48Chris Winterbauer?

  He was not given those.

• 33:49Lizzie Bassett?

  No, he can't. He can't. He's but like this completely makes sense. And also, when you think back to, you know, the traditions of Italian theater, you have things like commedia dell'arte, which is of course entirely movement based. So it makes a lot of sense that this is the way that you could communicate this.

• 34:03Chris Winterbauer?

  He also did not care about, or perhaps was not aware of, the Hays Code.

• 34:09Lizzie Bassett?

  Or both.

• 34:10Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, that a character who was shot by a gun couldn't be shown in the same frame as the gun going off. Leoni was like, put the gun in the shot. It's gonna be great. So that was one signature part of his style. These elements would all coalesce with all the camera movements, but he wasn't working alone. There are a lot of important contributions from other people, including Clint Eastwood, who insisted on cutting his dialogue down as much as possible to make his character more mysterious. I think that's a really strong element to this script.

• 34:37Lizzie Bassett?

  Yes.

• 34:37Chris Winterbauer?

  Keanu Reeves would famously do that with John Wick years and years and years later.

• 34:41Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Chris Winterbauer?

  Cinematographer Massimo Dallamano helped Leoni execute the extreme wide shots and closeups he'd become known for. I mean, what I love about this movie, and to be fair, I also watched How the West Was Won, which comes into our Monday episode, and has some incredible wide angle cinematography and really moves its camera in a dynamic way. But a lot of westerns, I think, had been kind of locked into these kind of John Ford static wides slash then like medium shots, cowboys shots, you know, ankles and up of your actors. And there wasn't a lot of variability to it. And Leoni is really pushing it beyond that.

• 35:15Lizzie Bassett?

  And also, when you think about even just the way that most films had been shot prior to that, like we talked about this a little bit with Rock Hudson versus James Dean on Giant, it was more common to have those sort of, you know, Medium shots versus like all these kind of crazy close ups, cutting around everywhere. Someone's eyeball, someone's gun, like that was not being done.

• 35:35Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, there's an extremely striking red and black opening title sequence to this film that is repeated more or less in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. Done by artist Hino Lardani. And of course, Lizzie, Ennio Morricone gave the project the iconic whistle. That would become synonymous with The Man With No Name and the spaghetti western genre in general. Now, Morricone was not Leone's first choice. He actually wanted to hire Franco Lavenino, who he'd worked with on The Colossus of Rhodes. But Jolly said, "Morricone is already scoring bullets, don't argue. We're just gonna roll him over onto your movie."

• 36:13Lizzie Bassett?

  He's practically free!

• 36:14Chris Winterbauer?

  And Morricone had to remind Leone, "We went to school together as kids." Leone had not remembered that until they were adults. But of course, it was an uncredited collaborator who had the biggest impact on the film, Akira Kurosawa. So Leone claims he had always intended to credit Yojimbo. In fact, according to one of his biographies, three quarters of the way through the shoot, the Jolly Film producers sent word to the production that they should, quote, "refrain under any circumstances from mentioning the word Yojimbo." According to Eastwood, quote, "The rights had not yet been cleared," meaning there was an intention to clear the rights. Now, we don't know what happened. It's possible that Jolly Film didn't want to pay the $10,000 needed to get the remake rights. That's what Leone thinks.

• 36:59Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Chris Winterbauer?

  It's possible that they attempted to, but were unable to contact Toho. It's possible they just said, "Screw it. We don't think this is going to be a problem because this movie is only going to play in Italy at the end of the day." According to Tonino Valeri, who worked at Jolly, he had an invoice for a screening of Yojimbo that Leone had held for the producers, during which he reportedly said, "I want to remake this movie for you." So to be clear, they were always remaking Yojimbo.

• 37:26Lizzie Bassett?

  Right.

• 37:27Chris Winterbauer?

  That was, that's not in dispute here. Whatever the case, the rights were never cleared. And a Toho executive, Sanzumi Fujimoto, saw a cut of Leone's film.

• 37:38Chris Winterbauer?

  And then Sergio Leone received a letter from Akira Kurosawa. Signor Leone, I have just had the chance to see your film. It is a very fine film. And that seems to be where Leone stopped reading. He couldn't believe it. Akira Kurosawa had watched his movie. He thought it was very fine. He showed it to everybody and they said, Sergio, that's not the important part of the letter. Because Kurosawa continued to say, it is a very fine film, but it is my film. Since Japan is a signatory of the Bern Convention on International Copyright, you must pay me. And so Jolly Film and Leone were sued for plagiarism.

• 38:17Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, no.

• 38:19Chris Winterbauer?

  Jolly's lawyers decided to counterattack. They used a dictionary of literature to find a prominent Italian play, Allecino, which was written in the 19th century, so before Yoshimbo. And they said, uh, Kurosawa actually ripped off an Italian author to make his movie, so...

• 38:37Lizzie Bassett?

  This is like the My Big Fat Greek Wedding argument of every word has a Greek origin.

• 38:41Chris Winterbauer?

  That's right. It did not work and it led to a negotiation. Kurosawa and his co-writer, Kikushima, were granted exclusive rights to distribute the film in Japan, Formosa, which is now Taiwan, and South Korea. Plus, they got 15% of the worldwide box office receipts.

• 38:59Lizzie Bassett?

  Whoa.

• 39:00Chris Winterbauer?

  I've read some people say that Kurosawa made more money on this movie than he had on his own movies.

• 39:06Lizzie Bassett?

  Probably, just because of the profit margin.

• 39:10Chris Winterbauer?

  There were bigger problems, though, Lizzie. Italian cinema operators thought the Western was dead. According to Leone, one Roman businessman who owned a chain of at least 50 cinemas didn't even want to attend a private screening of The Magnificent Stranger. Critics were ignoring these movies. They had stolen titles. They were considered B-movies, even in Italy. So they mixed it up. They renamed The Magnificent Stranger, A Fistful of Dollars. And in order to try to trick Italian audiences into thinking this was a foreign import from America, Sergio Leone's name for this movie was changed to Bob Robertson.

• 39:48Lizzie Bassett?

  Which would be Robert Robertson, by the way.

• 39:53Chris Winterbauer?

  They basically say, if we can Americanize this, we can make Italian audiences think it's exotic, a real American Western that we're bringing here to Italy.

• 40:02Lizzie Bassett?

  Robert Robertson's famous American Western.

• 40:05Chris Winterbauer?

  It's the same thing as an American being like, oh, my God, this French cologne that's actually just like Target rebranded, for example. In August of 1964, A Fistful of Dollars opened in Florence. It actually beat Bullets Don't Argue to the box office. It was shot after and came out before by two months, and Lizzie?

• 40:25Lizzie Bassett?

  Wow.

• 40:26Chris Winterbauer?

  It was a sleeper hit. According to some sources, it made over $4 million in Italy alone on a budget of $200,000.

• 40:34Lizzie Bassett?

  Whoa.

• 40:35Chris Winterbauer?

  But because of the lawsuit involving Kurosawa, the US release would be delayed for two and a half years. So over in the United States, Clint Eastwood is wondering, what the hell happened to that movie I shot in Italy?

• 40:47Lizzie Bassett?

  When is this gonna come out?

• 40:49Chris Winterbauer?

  He opens up Variety, and there's an article declaring the Western dead, except for this little movie in Italy starring Clint Eastwood called A Fistful of Dollars. And Clint says, I didn't act in a movie called A Fistful of Dollars?

• 41:03Lizzie Bassett?

  No one's told him anything.

• 41:04Chris Winterbauer?

  Nobody told him about the title change. Now, Leoni made little more, apparently, on A Fistful of Dollars than A Fistful of Dollars due to the Kurosawa lawsuit and perhaps some producerial shenanigans, and we'll get into that more on Monday. But when the US trailer for the movie finally ran ahead of its January 1967 release, it ended with two lines. "A Fistful of Dollars is the first motion picture of its kind. It won't be the last." And that was absolutely true. So Leoni rushed a sequel into production. He even sent an Italian dubbed reel, because they didn't have the English dubbed reel yet. They wouldn't have an English dubbed reel until 66.

• 41:39Lizzie Bassett?

  Wow.

• 41:39Chris Winterbauer?

  So he sends this Italian dubbed reel to Hollywood for Eastwood to screen, to convince him to come back. So Eastwood is watching this at CBS. He's watching himself do Italian dialogue to decide. But of course, he can see, this movie has style. This movie's working. Also, he doesn't have a lot of other offers coming in, because no one in the United States has seen this movie. So he comes back for a few dollars more, which is released in Italy in 1965. These movies are back to back.

• 42:04Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, my God, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly was 66, right? Oh, no.

• 42:09Chris Winterbauer?

  This movie becomes the highest grossing Italian film of all time at the time, and we are now in a gold rush. The popularity of Italian westerns prior to Leone's breakout had created hundreds of jobs in the film industry, including a bunch of young assistant directors looking to make their directorial debut, and here's their chance. So you've got directors like N. G. O. G. Castellari, who pumps out "Any Gun Can Play", "Payment in Blood", "Kill Them All and Come Back Alone", in just 1967 and 1968. The titles are amazing. And yes, Lizzie, there are a lot of cash grabs. There are a lot of releases that included the word "dollar", since that worked for Leone. Another name that everyone tried to cash in on was Ringo. So there was a movie called "A Pistol for Ringo", written and directed by Duccio Tessari, which stars Giuliano Gemma, which, again, just to the names,

• 42:54Chris Winterbauer?

  he's billed as Montgomery Wood in these movies. So like, they all go by American names. He then did a follow-up, which was called "The Return of Ringo", which was neither an actual sequel to "A Pistol for Ringo", nor following the same character, but the name Ringo worked. Then somebody else said, "Okay, great", and they made a comedy called "Two Sons of Ringo", which followed characters named Franco and Cecio, pretending to be gunmen named Django and Gringo. So again, no Ringo in here.

• 43:19Lizzie Bassett?

  No Ringo, okay, sure.

• 43:20Chris Winterbauer?

  There was "Ringo del Nebraska", also released as "Savage Ringo", in which the hero's name was changed from Nebraska to Ringo in post-production through the dubbing. There was "Three Bullets for Ringo", "Ringo the Lone Rider", there were literally dozens. I read almost 30 Ringo-titled films that were not about the same character. But the Tessari films they were based on were actually pretty thoughtfully and skillfully made, as were the films by Leone's old friend, Sergio Corbucci. You probably know the name Django.

• 43:47Lizzie Bassett?

  Yes, of course.

• 43:48Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, that was his most famous film in 1966. He'd also directed some Sword and Sandal movies before moving into westerns. He had actually done an Italian western called "The Grand Canyon Massacre", which starred James Mitchum and had nothing to do with the Grand Canyon, which was released in May of 1964, three months before "A Fistful of Dollars". So you could argue that Corbucci actually was the first spaghetti western, you know, director, although the name wouldn't be coined for years. And he took Leone's violence to a new level in many ways. If you guys... Have seen Django, for example. He was, I think he was even more violent than Leone. Franco Giraldi, a former film critic who'd worked second unit on A Fistful of Dollars, got in the action. He made seven guns for the McGregor's. He followed it up with three more,

• 44:30Chris Winterbauer?

  and he worked under the pseudonyms Frank Garfield and Frank Preston.

• 44:34Lizzie Bassett?

  I want the job of giving these Italian men the American names.

• 44:38Chris Winterbauer?

  It's like porn director names. Yeah, it's really working. Some of these movies actually got pretty serious and pretty political, as we'll discuss on Monday. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly is as much a Civil War film as it is in Westerns in many ways. The point is, this cohort of writers and directors are using this genre, which just started to be referred to as spaghetti Western, to experiment. Now, apparently, Leone did not understand why they were being called spaghetti Westerns. He actually thought maybe the spaghetti was a replacement for the lasso, like visually, like, oh, it's like, instead of spaghetti, lasso, it's spaghetti.

• 45:10Lizzie Bassett?

  Sir.

• 45:11Chris Winterbauer?

  He said he didn't mind it. He actually said he didn't think Americans were using it in a malicious way, even though a lot of them were. So the truth is, a lot of American critics and journalists were quick to embrace the name and very slow to embrace the genre. And the big criticism, Lizzie, was the violence. They said it was too graphic. In its review for A Few Dollars More, The New York Times wrote, "There is nothing wholesome about killing men for bounty, nothing funny about seeing them die, no matter how much the audience may sit there and burble and laugh." And for A Few Dollars More, I don't think it's the best film of the three. I do think that's The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. It might be my favorite of the three movies. And if you've never seen it, Lizzie, I cannot recommend it enough. Lee Van Cleef, who plays the bad in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, he actually plays a very heroic character. And it was the first time in his career

• 45:56Chris Winterbauer?

  that he played a heroic character, you know, as a lead. And he has a really wonderfully emotional arc. And the shootout, the final shootout, is much more emotional than the final shootouts in either A Fistful of Dollars or The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. And it features some of the best Morricone music as well. I highly recommend it. But anyway, these reviews were not great. And I think they miss the keystone inspiration for Leone, which is the work of Dashiell Hammett. I think one of the reasons that these spaghetti westerns work so well, especially Leone's, is that they are riddled with double crosses, betrayals.

• 46:30Lizzie Bassett?

  They're very complex.

• 46:31Chris Winterbauer?

  Which, to me, feels much more akin to film noir, gumshoe detective novels and movies than it does to classic westerns. And I feel like that's an influence that's often missed in the discussions of these. Like, to me, A Fistful of Dollars at times feels more like The Maltese Falcon. And he feels more like Humphrey Bogart, you know what I mean? Than he does like John Wayne in some of these movies.

• 46:51Lizzie Bassett?

  Even The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. The number of times that people change allegiances or make different deals, it's crazy. I mean, like, you really have to pay attention. It definitely feels like a Dashiell Hammett.

• 47:00Chris Winterbauer?

  So between 1960 and 1978, according to, I believe, a reliable source I found, over 600 European westerns were made. Nearly 500 in Italy alone. Most shot between 1964 and 78. But the genre really hit its peak in 1967 and 1968. Around this time, the Italian film industry was pumping out, you know, high 60s, 70s Italian westerns a year. And a lot of the American stars that Leone had approached for A Fistful of Dollars did end up working in the genre. Henry Fonda, Charles Bronson, Henry Silva, James Coburn, not to mention Burt Reynolds, plays a Navajo Joe, if you guys haven't seen it.

• 47:42Chris Winterbauer?

  And Richard Harrison, who did start starring in spaghetti westerns. He did $100,000 for Ringo the year after A Fistful of Dollars was made.

• 47:50Lizzie Bassett?

  $18 for Ringo.

• 47:53Chris Winterbauer?

  A fistful of Ringos for your dollars. Now, all three of Leone's Eastwood films were released in the United States in 1967 because of the Kurosawa lawsuit delay. January, then mid-year, and then The Good, the Bad and the Ugly on December 29th, which is crazy, a whole trilogy in one year.

• 48:12Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Chris Winterbauer?

  Production then dipped in the early 70s. It popped up again with some self-parody films and then died off kind of by the late 70s. Leone's last spaghetti western, Duck You Sucker, released in 1971, was actually a film he never intended to direct, but we'll cover that movie another day. Despite kicking off the craze, Leone was far from the most prolific of the spaghetti western directors. Lizzie, do you know how many spaghetti westerns Sergio Leone actually directed?

• 48:40Lizzie Bassett?

  Uh, no, five, six?

• 48:43Chris Winterbauer?

  Five, very good. He did A Fistful of Dollars, For a Few Dollars More, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. He then did Once Upon a Time in the West.

• 48:51Lizzie Bassett?

  Right.

• 48:52Chris Winterbauer?

  And then Duck You Sucker in 1971. So he did five between 64 and 71. Far short of, for example, Sergio Corbucci, who did 13.

• 49:01Lizzie Bassett?

  Wow.

• 49:02Chris Winterbauer?

  And yet Leone's five films brought in more money combined than the western filmography of any other Italian western director. Over 14 billion lira at the time. And Lizzie, that brings us to the end of our primer on spaghetti westerns and how the craze started and sets us up for the culminating film of Sergio Leone's career as a spaghetti western director, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, which is a crazy story. And I am so excited to get into on Monday, the writing of this story, the shooting of this story, the dubbing of this movie. It's just a wild ride. But I have to ask you, in the history of spaghetti

• 49:44Chris Winterbauer?

  westerns, what went right? I know we don't normally do this on primers, but I thought I'd throw it to you.

• 49:49Lizzie Bassett?

  No, that's fine. All art is iterative. I think everything comes from somewhere. And I love the fact that Sergio Leone saw Yojimbo and said, I could do that, but different, but Italian and a western. And it's not that that is such an unusual idea, because, you know, you can watch Yojimbo and I think see that it is very much within a western format to a certain degree. Or that there's that there's elements of the western present in Yojimbo. But it's the way that he did it. It's the style. It's how much of himself he made it. And so I think that's what went right, is that he saw something he loved

• 50:33Lizzie Bassett?

  and he thought, I can do it, but I can do it my way. And then he did. And I love that.

• 50:39Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, I think, you know, and the things that he's experimenting with, the point of view shot, you know, of the villain at the end as he looks up to the sky and then, you know, falls into the well, that which he'll repeat in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. The way in which he frames the gun on the hip. With the other character in the distance and the hand coming down over it.

• 51:02Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Chris Winterbauer?

  What I've read is that Leone was not a very literary person, as we'll get into on Monday. Perhaps not a very well-read individual, but he has a deep knowledge of art.

• 51:13Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Chris Winterbauer?

  And he uses a lot of classical art references in his films. And you can tell he's just a visual master and that, you know, had he not been a director, maybe he would have been a painter, you know, maybe he would have been something else. Because compositionally.

• 51:25Lizzie Bassett?

  It's beautiful.

• 51:26Chris Winterbauer?

  He's unparalleled, in my opinion. I do think he's one of the greatest directors of all time. I don't think he gets his due. I think that he and Morricone as a duo are up there with Williams and Lucas or Williams and Spielberg, you know, take your pick. The harmony between the music that Morricone makes for these movies and the way that Leone moves his camera, his limited use of dialogue is really helpful, I think, in that way.

• 51:52Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah, which I'm sure may have been, you know, out of necessity to start with. But yes, it's great. I mean, yeah, you talk about the composition. We'll talk about this on Monday as well, but there are shots in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly that you could frame and put up on a wall and they would be worthy of a museum.

• 52:07Chris Winterbauer?

  Yes.

• 52:08Lizzie Bassett?

  Lee Van Cleef entering the home of the family right before he, as they're getting ready to eat dinner. It's really incredible. It's worth every minute.

• 52:16Chris Winterbauer?

  All right. Well, thank you so much, Lizzie. And we have to say a huge thank you to Brami for sponsoring today's episode. If today's deep dive into Sergio Leone and the beginnings of the spaghetti western genre had you craving for something with a little more character, Brami's got you covered. Pasta made in Italy from only two old world ingredients with more protein and fiber and absolutely no trade offs in taste. And this summer, keep an eye out for Cubetti, Brami's newest pasta shape exclusively at Whole Foods. If you've never tried Cubetti, it's delicious hollow little cubes, perfect for a summer pasta salad and surprisingly hard to find in the U.S. Until now, and I can verify my kids are obsessed. They call it special pasta. They love this pasta. Visit enjoybrami.com to shop and find your nearest retailer. That's enjoybrami.com. Brami, eat well, live well.

• 53:01Chris Winterbauer?

  And until Monday, bye.

• 53:04Lizzie Bassett?

  What's Italian for bye? We should probably have said that.

• 53:07Chris Winterbauer?

  Arrivederci.

• 53:09Lizzie Bassett?

  Arrivederci.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  What Went Wrong is a Sad Boom Podcast, presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer. Post-production and music by David Bowman. This episode was researched by Jesse Winterbauer.