Love on a Timeline with Esther Perel

Trevor enlists the help of noted therapist Esther Perel to help design the perfect relationship model. They talk through all the phases–where to find someone, the perfect date, defining the relationship, weathering storms, sex, and even how to end things. Nothing’s off the table!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

  This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. You know what's really frustrating? Knowing the exact information you need is somewhere on your phone, but still ending up wasting your time digging through five different apps just to actually find it. Thankfully, Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini Intelligence, so it can proactively find the information I need right when I need it. Like my flight info on travel days or my calendar when Eugene texts me to hang out. Oh, sorry Eugene, I'm booked. Learn more about what Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and over, and make sure to check responses.

• 0:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, booked forever, forever.

• 0:48Speaker 01

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• 1:14Trevor Noah?

  I love roller coasters. And I remember saying to my friends once, one of the things I love most about roller coasters is that people spend most of their time complaining that the line is so long and that they don't get to ride. They get into the roller coaster and then they spend most of the ride screaming, saying, "I wish it would stop." Just get me out of here, get me out of here, get me out of here, get me out of here. And then after the ride, they go, "Ah, that was so much fun. Ah, I want to do it again." Or, "I don't ever want to do that again." And in a way, it sounds like the relationship is a roller coaster and then it becomes our ability to remember that we wanted a bit of a loop and we also remember when to hold on to the harness.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Some couples live on a roller coaster and they like the edge feeling of it. And some people don't want to live on the edge.

• 2:04Trevor Noah?

  They want to live in the line and then ride a roller coaster.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Yes, they go to the other things at the fair.

• 2:10Trevor Noah?

  They just want to go eat and sit in the cups that spin.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Or the little round thing.

• 2:14Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, the Ferris wheel, yes, yes, okay.

• 2:22Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

• 2:34Trevor Noah?

  You're listening to What Now with Trevor Noah. Our culture has never been more comfortable with psychotherapy. It's no longer a whispered secret. It's practically a badge of honor. I mean, for me, therapy has been a game changer, helping me work through everything from past traumas to career challenges and, of course, relationships. I would argue that few people have done more to inject the language of relationship therapy into the culture than today's guest, my friend Esther Perel. Esther's singular goal in life is to get all of us to have healthier relationships. She's got her amazing podcast, Where Should We Begin?, which features real couples working through their triumphs and challenges. She's got her books.

• 3:17Trevor Noah?

  She even just launched several online relationship courses for you to fix your world at home. Esther is a very busy person, but for the next hour, she's with us to lay out her theory of what makes for truly satisfying relationships and to walk us through the life cycle of a relationship, from first dates through moving in together to, yes, it happens, splitting up gracefully. So, settle in. Esther Perel joins me now on a couch, of course. Here we go. So Esther, I've known you for many years. I, like many people, have read your books and watched your talks for many years. And so, in sitting down to have this conversation with you,

• 4:01Trevor Noah?

  I was trying to think of something that you haven't necessarily done before. And then I realized something that everyone says when thinking of a psychotherapist, a relationship therapist, an expert in sex and love and the way we see ourselves. And everyone says, "I wish I had known this from the beginning. I wish I had started therapy sooner. I wish we had spoken to somebody sooner." And as crazy as it sounds, I thought to myself...

• 4:34Trevor Noah?

  What if you could start your relationship with Esther Perel? What would it be like from the very beginning? You know, and I actually, let's start with that. Have you ever met somebody before their relationships and then like sort of gone through it with them? Or do people only come to you when things are going wrong?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  No. People used to come when things were going south. I think there was this, there was so much stigma attached to psychotherapy.

• 5:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  That people only came if there was really trouble on the horizon or not even on the horizon in their midst. And that has fundamentally changed. The idea that you don't go because things are terrible, but you actually go in order to prevent certain things from happening. Or because you've had other experiences and you know that there's certain vulnerabilities that you grapple with.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  And you come actually when things are still really good and you say, what should we prepare ourselves for? That is a major thing that changed in my almost forty years in practice. This was a big shift.

• 5:43Trevor Noah?

  How do we immunize ourselves from what people are now terming over-therapizing? It feels like we, we lived in a world where people never went to therapy and didn't want to deal with the brain. And now some people are warning that we therapize everything and everyone. In fact, I read a tweet once that really made me laugh thinking about it. Someone said, every relationship in L A is a proxy battle between therapists now. It's two people in a relationship saying, well, my therapist said this and no, no, well, actually my therapist said this about it. How, how do we immunize ourselves and do we even need to?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Does your therapist know my therapist?

• 6:15Trevor Noah?

  Yes, exactly, exactly.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  You know, it's a little bit like sex. It used to be that you had to be ashamed if you had sex. Now you are ashamed if you don't.

• 6:24Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  So the same idea that in the, in this very psychologized society that we are now living in. It's a cachet to put your being in therapy on your dating profile.

• 6:38Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  It suddenly doesn't take away from you, it adds. It stands for. I work on myself.

• 6:46Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  I investigate my life. I seek insight. I seek to grow. I seek to be enlightened, et cetera. I think there is a risk of being overly therapeutized. I think that you can become a professional patient. Um, and then, but that doesn't mean that you have been in therapy for a long time. For many people, that long time has been extremely beneficial.

• 7:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  So it's not like you can make a statement and say, oh, you've been in therapy ten years and show me what you got. You know, where are the goods? The, the, how do we know that it has really made a, a significant difference? So for some people, this is a very important endeavor that accompanies throughout their life. For other people, it sometimes is a way actually to not address issues.

• 7:30Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  You know, you kind of can say I'm in therapy, but you, not much is happening there. So it can be a subterfuge too. Like everything else, it can be used for great gain and for deep work. And it can be also used sometimes to perform, to pretend that you're doing certain things, but you're not really engaged in it. Um, so I think that you don't know until you ask four more questions. The fact that somebody says I'm in therapy or I have a therapist doesn't tell you much.

• 8:02Trevor Noah?

  What are the four questions?

• 8:03Speaker 02

  I knew you were gonna ask me that.

• 8:06Trevor Noah?

  I mean, you set me up.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  I gave it to you on a platter, you know. Uh, they're never four times the same, but, but you could ask, um, what brought you to therapy? And have there been times when the reason why you go has completely changed? Because what brought you may not be why you're still there. And, um, have you had long periods where you stopped? And at this moment, how would you define what you do there? And, um, if you thought about something that has really changed you because of the work that you did in therapy, what would it be?

• 8:46Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  That kind of questions. That'll tell you something about how the person thinks about their endeavor. What is the reflection about the reflection?

• 8:58Trevor Noah?

  I've always wondered, as a therapist. You're dealing oftentimes with people who are telling you about their world and how they relate to it. But you don't necessarily get to relate to their world. You only see it through their lens. Like, how does a good therapist know when the person who's sitting on the couch, how do they know when that person is sort of like presenting, not the truth, because everyone has a different truth. How do you know which perspective to work from? And how do you know how to guide the person when they're the ones presenting you with reality?

• 9:29Speaker 02

  No, they're not presenting me with reality. They are presenting me with their reality.

• 9:35Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  And when it comes to the reality of relationships, relationships are stories. Everybody comes to talk about their relationship. They're coming with the story of their relationship as they see it. So that's the first thing. You have to keep in mind that what you're hearing is a version of the story.

• 9:55Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  And that most likely, there is another person, if we're talking relationships, who may have a different version of the story, a different way to tell the relationship, the dynamic in the relationship, the patterns, the, you know. So, once you know that, while you listen, you sit and you think, and sometimes you ask, if your partner was hearing this story, or if I asked your partner that same question, or this person you're dating, or something, what do you think they would say? And then you try to see if this person sitting right here has the ability to even imagine that there can be another story. It's one of the great challenges of relationships. And one of the great tasks is the ability to live with difference. That means another person.

• 10:39Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  So, you know, one of the things that happens to us a lot as couples services, if I see you for a while alone and you've told me a whole thing about your, and one day I say, I really would like to meet your partner. And most of the time, when you meet that partner, it's got nothing to do with what I imagined. You know, over years, I made myself a picture of what this person was like. If this person was so sweet, or this person was way more aggressive, or this person couldn't stop talking, or this... You know, so we also, in our mind, create a construct of who we're talking about. Until you meet the person.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  And then you realize that many times, relationships are like Swiss cheese, you know? It's like the holes. Everything one person didn't mention is exactly what the other one is highlighting. And it's, the story is the combination of the two.

• 11:36Trevor Noah?

  A lot of this conversation actually reminds me, in a different way, about a conversation I had with the author Yuval Noah Harari on the podcast. And what I loved is, his view and what he was trying to do as a historian, was trying to understand reality through multiple truths, to figure out where the facts lie, and then where people's stories overlap and coincide. It almost feels like, listening to you, you're now dealing with the, what do we do now when those informations aren't the same? What do we do when those realities don't coincide? So, how do you even...

• 12:13Speaker 02

  So imagine a family, you know? How does your brother see this? How does your father handle that? So, it's systemic. I am a systemically trained therapist. I look at relationships as interdependent parts. And I look at how the parts influence each other and even create each other. Meaning, a person is not just an essential being. A person gets created in the context of a relationship. You become by version of how you act and behave in this particular relationship. And how you act, behave, and believe is influenced by the reactions of the other person.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  So, we create each other in a relationship. People come in, this is how she is. This is how they are. With you, with you, in this relationship, in this context. Problems take place in the context. People become defined by the context in which they are in. And in a different relationship, they may act differently. And that means that if you want to change the other, one of the most powerful ways you can do so is by changing yourself.

• 13:25Trevor Noah?

  I remember you, you said something.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Does that make sense?

• 13:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it makes complete sense, because I remember you said something once that, that has stuck with me. Uh, the, the first time you said it, you said, it takes two people to create a cycle. It only takes one person to break it.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 13:41Trevor Noah?

  And that's essentially what you're saying here is like, we have the ability to change the dynamic by changing how we exist in the dynamic.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  I had this situation yesterday, uh, with someone I, uh, actually on my team. And, um, we were talking about, um, challenging conversations.

• 14:01Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  And situations where we become very reactive and polarized inside our families. And he was talking about how he didn't maintain the religious faith of his family, which is, which the family is very steeped in. And every, and, and has made that choice, so has his partner, they have four kids. And the mother is often very upset about all of that. And I, and I could see the dynamic, the dynamic is the mother comes to, and the son tries to say, you know, the boundaries.

• 14:32Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  And I said, that doesn't go anywhere. Have you ever imagined that even though you landed in a completely different place? What, what would happen if you told your mom, I just want you to know how much I appreciate the things that you taught me. They really have guided me. Because your mother thinks that she failed because you didn't keep the faith. Instead of telling her, yeah, because this is all, you know, whatever. No, I so think of you so often. Every time I make decisions, I think of the essential values that you gave me. I made different choices with them, but they are at the core of my choices. And you are at the center of my belief system.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  And I don't want you to worry about that. You are still very much present. Try that for a change.

• 15:24Trevor Noah?

  And what happened?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  That is, I didn't do it with him, because he's on an assignment. I told him, go try. But I've done this many, many, many times. Because instead of pushing the person away and saying, drop off, get off my back, I disagree with you. I'd made a different life than you. You're basically saying, if you became such a thinker that you were willing to change your life, then obviously you took it from somewhere. And that means the thinking that was given to you, even though you're doing it in a different language. If you say to someone who feels they failed that they matter greatly, they will relax and they will get off your back without you having to push them off.

• 16:03Trevor Noah?

  You often bring up parents when talking about people's relationships with their romantic partners. And oftentimes, when people talk about their romantic partners, the last thing they mention is their parents. How much does working on your relationship with your parents, even in hindsight, affect your relationship with your partner that you're currently with in a romantic situation?

• 16:26Speaker 02

  A lot, a lot.

• 16:27Trevor Noah?

  And why? Why is that?

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Because the first place where you learn to love, to desire, to be loved, to have needs, to have needs be met or thwarted, to feel protected or not, to be rocked or not, to be sued or not, is all among with the people who took care of you. You learn about the emotional world in those relationships, the people who raised you. They're your caregivers. They don't have to be your biological parents. And you, you learn, you know, if you were allowed to cry or not, you learn if it was okay to laugh, you learn if it was encouraged to thrive, you learn if you were going to be protected at home or if you had to flee for protection,

• 17:13Speaker 02

  you learn if you could trust people, you learned about betrayal. I mean, the entire range of emotional experiences. And you bring that with you, parts of that,

• 17:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  in what you want to experience again and in what you want to make sure to avoid. You know, a lot of, a friend of mine says that a lot of childhood is about having too much of certain things and too little of other things.

• 17:39Trevor Noah?

  I like that.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Very real. And, and so you, you, you either say, you know,

• 17:46Speaker 02

  I could never trust, you know, nobody was reliable. I have learned to take care of myself because, you know, there was nobody there for me.

• 17:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Well, that I've learned to stand on my own two feet. I am built for autonomy. I am built for self reliance, you know. That becomes a lens with which, you know, through which you live and you make your decisions. And then you find yourself with someone who was raised for loyalty and interdependence. And it's a completely different book of how you are connecting with people, of what you look for in people, of how you open yourself to them, of how you allow yourself to be vulnerable, of how you follow rules, all of that. So I think that's, by the way, a very good distinction you can often use. Where you're raised for autonomy and self reliance,

• 18:39Speaker 02

  or where you're raised for loyalty and interdependence.

• 18:43Trevor Noah?

  We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now.

• 19:06Trevor Noah?

  But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're going to watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watch. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going.

• 19:50Trevor Noah?

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• 21:11Trevor Noah?

  All right, so I'm really excited to try this. And I know it's gonna be a little generic, but I want you to indulge me as we play this game just to give people an idea of how we can differently approach moments in a relationship. So this is, this is basically me going, you have Esther Perel in your corner from the get-go, from the inception of a relationship. So somebody's sitting at home, they say to themselves, I wanna be in a relationship. They whip out a Tinder profile, they get themselves on dating apps and they go out to bars. And immediately, how does Esther respond to that? Like, what should I be looking at on my Tinder profile to get me the person that I want? Or which bars should I be going to to meet the person I need to meet?

• 21:56Trevor Noah?

  Or is it a library instead of a bar? Where should I go and how do I approach it?

• 22:00Speaker 02

  All right, there's two, two parts to the question. There's actually three things that come to my mind. The first thing is, instead of asking yourself all the time, what am I looking for? Or who am I looking for? Why don't you ask yourself, who would you like to be in this relationship?

• 22:18Trevor Noah?

  Who would you like to be?

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Yes, I mean, this consumer mentality of I'm looking for, you know, filling the list. That's like, it's a bit strange when you think of it. Like, who do you want to be in this relationship? If you know who you want to be, you have a good idea of what you are looking for, rather than making a checklist. The next thing is, I think you can go and make your profile and go on an app and see what you find there. I also, at this moment, I'm very much in the kind of return to the analog. You know, where do you meet people? What are the things you enjoy doing? So that you can actually meet people and talk about the things that you're interested in,

• 23:02Speaker 02

  rather than meet people and start to do a job interview, which is what a lot of the first dates are like these days. Sitting in a noisy place and asking questions. While you're looking to see if you've got some butterflies, you know, moving in your belly. I mean, on what basis is that gonna happen? But if you experience something with someone, you're listening to music, you're in a museum, you're role playing, whatever you're doing, and you start talking about something that you're both looking at and interested in, then you begin a natural conversation. Then you find yourself suddenly walking and it's like two hours later and you haven't stopped talking. That's very different than I'm coming to see if I found the one, because we're looking for a soulmate on an app, you know.

• 23:45Trevor Noah?

  So if I'm, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're almost saying like what, what we're doing is counter to what we're trying to achieve in many ways?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  In many ways. Not that, I'm well aware that a ton of people meet online.

• 23:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  But there is something ironic about, you know, the one and only on an app in the middle of a thousand people at your fingertips.

• 24:05Trevor Noah?

  Huh.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  How am I supposed to know that this is the one? You know, and done in a context that is rather artificial and disconnected from your life. Because you leave your life, your friends, your activities, I'm going on a date. And that date takes place away from the rest of your life. Rather than I meet somebody, I mean, bringing them along to whatever we're doing.

• 24:26Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's okay. That's interesting. So let's say, so let's say things have gone well. Let's say the person used an app, even though they maybe it wasn't their best choice, but they did meet somebody. Or let's say they were in a, in an art gallery and they, they saw a painting and they spoke to the person next to them, or they were even in the park and they were sitting next to somebody and a conversation started because of a dog that ran between them. Either way, so now people have met, right? There's that, there's that feeling.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Then the next thing is.

• 24:52Trevor Noah?

  Wait, but are butterflies good? This is something I'm always confused about. Like what? I, I hear some people saying butterflies are trauma. Other people say, no, butterflies are the feeling of something new and exciting.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  I said before butterflies, that you want curiosity. Is this person eliciting your curiosity?

• 25:08Trevor Noah?

  In what way?

• 25:09Speaker 02

  I'd like to get to know you more. I enjoy this. Love to continue this conversation. Could talk to you for another few more hours. That's curiosity. I'm intrigued. I'm open. I'm curious. I'm, I'm, you know, it's that position.

• 25:23Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  You know, rather than is this, is, is this person meeting my standards kind of thing, you know, is, am I feeling something? No, maybe you're not feeling anything yet, but you're, you're open. Curiosity is the beautiful word about that. Then you realize that curiosity connects with, I think about this. So now I'm thinking about this person, you know, and it enters my mind and now I'm kind of, ah, I could ask about that. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm curious about this. And so now you start to have the imagination about who is this person? And you start to imagine things about this person. I think that when you look in, in small steps as to what awakens you to someone.

• 26:08Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  You know, and physically too. It's not just all mental. It's so it's mental, emotional, physical, sensorial.

• 26:15Trevor Noah?

  Mental, emotional, physical and sensorial.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  And I would reverse the order. It's sensorial first. I'm at ease. I'm comfortable sitting here. You know, I'm, I'm comfortable with you. We've had the different conversations. I enjoy talking to you. I'm not holding back. I'm, I'm what we like to call leaning in, all right? I'm leaning in. I'm curious. Does he, does he actually like, is this the place he would go to if we were not on a first date? I mean, did he pick this for me or did he pick this because that's his kind of a dive? And you have a conversation with the person and a conversation with yourself. At the same time, you're going back and forth. And this is music. Different instruments are playing at the same time.

• 26:54Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I love the sound of that. Okay, so now we've played the music. We're in the beginning stages. What's a perfect first date? Is it a, is it a movie? Is it a comedy club? Is it a bar? Is it a, uh, because you said, why do we meet one on one? For a job interview, you go, this is my, I'm going on a date and then I'm going to my life.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 27:14Trevor Noah?

  So what, what is the alternative?

• 27:15Speaker 02

  I met somebody, I have a life and I'm bringing that person along for the thing I was planning to do.

• 27:20Trevor Noah?

  So you meet a person and then you bring them to like your real life?

• 27:24Speaker 02

  Yes, I find there's something very weird about you meet somebody away from everything, away from situations where you can get a ton of data points about the person, away from your friends noticing you in interaction with that person. And then at some point you go for the big reveal. You know, you're bringing that person to meet your friends. It's, it's, it is something strange about that when you really, I mean, it's not that it's one way versus another, but there's something about saying, we were going to have a picnic, do you want to join? And then you don't make a big deal out of it. It's just, it's, it's not like it's the person I'm dating. So I met this person and I'm bringing him along. And then you have a ton of information, actually.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  Because it's happening in your life and not only if you have a lot of information, but if it doesn't continue, you haven't left your life to go meet three nights in a row dates and then come back to report to your beloveds.

• 28:23Trevor Noah?

  But then how do we, how do we balance the embarrassment and the pressure that comes with meeting a person with our people? Because, I mean, I know even for myself, I wish I could be a perfect friend, but I'm sure there'll be moments where I'd be like judgmental and there's moments where I'd be like, huh, so why do you like this person? Hmm, interesting. I saw they, they didn't laugh at that or they, they, you really think this will go somewhere? How do we immunize ourselves from choosing a person based on who our friends think would work for us? Because we've introduced them so soon.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  We don't, but we don't immunize ever. We, we constantly look at people in social situations. You look at them at a restaurant, you look at them when they order, you look at how they talk to the cab driver. You are picking up information about these peoples, you know, as social creatures, as social beings. Your friends, you know, hopefully their opinion matters to you, actually. They often see things you don't see.

• 29:14Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  They often, you know, often you don't care about what they see. But what I'm saying is that there is such a split at this moment.

• 29:22Trevor Noah?

  Right, a disconnect.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  A disconnect between the life you lead, the things you enjoy doing, and the dates that are taking place in this very, I think, sterile situation. So when you say what is a perfect date, a perfect date is a date that you want to have another one. It doesn't matter what you did, it's the fact that you would like to see the person again. That's a good date. And maybe that it ended up with an open-endedness, that you had no idea that this was going to unfold, and it led to that, and it led... And that open-endedness, it's erotic, it's alive, in that sense. It's, it's full of possibility. And that, if that is the definition, huh, that I'm talking about when I say erotic, not sexually, but it's, it's vibrant. That's a good date. The activity itself doesn't matter.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  A good first date is the beginning of how you write the first page of a story.

• 30:14Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  I mean, everybody wants to ask couples, where did you meet?

• 30:20Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  How did you meet? People want to know the beginning of the story, the origin story. The first date is the first moment of the origin story.

• 30:33Trevor Noah?

  Today I'm talking to Esther Perel about relationships and compatibility. You know, finding the right person. And you know how finding the right person to work with can feel just as important as finding the right partner in life? Both take patience, a bit of luck, and a process that actually works. Well, ZipRecruiter's got the process down to a science. Next big opportunity is brought to you by ZipRecruiter.

• 30:59Trevor Noah?

  Every day ZipRecruiter helps 10 million candidates with their job search, which means no matter the role or industry, they can help your business find qualified candidates fast. And when they say no matter the role or industry, they rarely mean it. You can see for yourself by going to ziprecruiter.com/trevor. Take this job listing I came across. A video game tester in Arizona. Okay, imagine your job is literally to play video games all day. Sounds amazing, right? But I imagine the challenge of being a game tester is keeping your excitement in check. Like, it's still a job. You have to stay sharp and professional even while playing something fun. My advice? If you're looking for roles like this, lean into your passion,

• 31:45Trevor Noah?

  but be ready to show how you can bring value to the table. And what skills do you think it takes to land a role like that? You probably need incredible attention to detail, insane patience, and the ability to give constructive feedback that makes the game better. If I were hiring for this role, I'd ask questions like, "What's your biggest frustration when playing a game?" Or, "Can you describe a moment where you found a bug no one else noticed?" It's kind of like getting to know your partner on a deeper level. You have to dig beyond the surface. Whatever role you're looking to fill, ZipRecruiter can help. With smart matching technology and handy tools like the Invite to Apply feature, you'll find a potential hire in no time. ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer most, based on G2.

• 32:30Trevor Noah?

  In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com/trevor. That's ziprecruiter.com/t-r-e-v-o-r. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

• 32:54Trevor Noah?

  Is there, is there a magic amount of time that people should wait before having sex?

• 32:58Speaker 02

  No, none of these things. I mean.

• 32:59Trevor Noah?

  No?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  No. I think that if you're somebody who knows that you attach very, very fast and that sexuality is deeply connected for you with intimacy, emotional intimacy, and that you have at times felt that you got close to people before you really were close to them, then you need to hold back. But that's not because there's a number, that's because you know that sexuality has a certain meaning for you. If you are a person for whom casual sex is easier and, you know, it's, it's a nice experience to have. It doesn't bond you, it doesn't elicit your dependency needs, it doesn't elicit your history of whatever sexual experiences you've had,

• 33:42Speaker 02

  then, then it's, it's less loaded for you and that's, you know, I think it's more about self-knowledge and the meaning of sex for you that will determine what do you need to experience, to feel, to have with this person that you met in order for you to be comfortable and to want to engage sexually as well rather than a set number. Here's the thing, you asked me questions that, that presuppose something you said before about, you know, you're the expert on relationships. And I really think that no expert these days has all the answers because relationships are more complex than ever. So I answer you, but I don't mean to think I'm right.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  I can sound confident, but I'm sure of nothing. So this kind of questions, how many, how, how long do you, depends on you. Tell me what has happened to you before. Tell me the, your story, then I can think with you. What would make sense for you at this moment in your life? If you're sixteen, it's one answer. If you're twenty-four, it's a different one. And if you're forty-five, it's a different one. I think. People would like relationships to be as precise as their apps. You know, frictionless, polished, you know, ones and zeros, binary answers.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  And the majority of relationship questions are often dilemmas and paradoxes that you manage and not problems with a precise answer.

• 35:17Trevor Noah?

  Not problems that you solve.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:19Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so let's move forward to the people are now together, people are in a relationship. When me becomes we.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:27Trevor Noah?

  A lot of people will struggle with how to define that. Some people will say, oh, we didn't define it enough. Others will say, oh, you you defined it too rigidly. You know, are we a couple, are we not a couple? What does that even mean? What does it not mean? And then how do people become a we in a healthy way? How do people not find themselves now feeling suffocated or feeling abandoned even though they're part of something with somebody else?

• 35:49Speaker 02

  Okay, let me answer this in like this. One is, what is the developmental stages of a couple? How does one be? How do we become a couple?

• 36:00Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  But how we become a couple has a lot to do with how each of us defines what is a couple.

• 36:06Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  And so a lot of what that process is about is the synchronization of these two views of what is a couple. And part of what defines a couple is how you straddle two axes. Autonomy and togetherness. Commitment and freedom. Connection and separateness. Security and adventure. It's those two lines. Every couple will need to define what is together and what is apart. What is me and what is we? And in the beginning, I meet you. And I.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Begin to wanna meet you again. And now, I was gonna go see this band or whatever. And I thought, I'll ask Trevor if he wants to come too. Because Trevor is entering the fabric of my life and the fabric of my being. So this I now gradually becomes we. And then I have another plan. And I said, would you like to join me on that? And then, and then the first time I look at this jacket and I think, that's a nice jacket. And then the second time I say, that's a very nice jacket. And then the third time I say, will you wear that jacket? Because I got licensed now to enter into your membrane. Yes. Right?

• 37:34Speaker 02

  And slowly, I start to say, I brought you another jacket I think you will like because it resembles your favorite jacket. And I brought you the coffee that you enjoy. And I start to know you. And as I get to know you and you get to know me, I bring things that reflect that knowledge of you. And that's part of the weaving of this we. And then, and I start to make decisions. And instead of making them all alone, I say, what do you think? Would you like to? I'd like to take a trip here. Would that interest you? Where would we go? And you start to see the pronouns changing. Now, this is when it all goes nicely.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  But now, there is, at some point, one of us says, I wish we did more we. And one of us says, I wish there was more room for I. And that tension is at the core of many issues that couples grapple with. We all are born with these two sets of needs. We all are born with this need for the we, the security, the connection, and the need for the space, the freedom. But each of us comes out of our childhood. Some of us needing more protection and more connection. And some of us needing more space and more individuality.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  And the person who needs more protection and connection is often the person who is more in touch with the fear of abandonment. And the person who is more in need for space and individuality is often the person more in touch with the fear of obliteration.

• 39:11Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  One person more afraid of losing the other, one person more afraid of losing themselves. The one who says "we" to somebody who keeps saying, "But what about I?" Often, you asked me before, tracing it back to the parental story, this is a very good moment where you want to find out what is the origin story of each person that can help you understand. What is the charge when I say "we" and why do I instantly, some people instantly want "we"? I've seen you three times and I'm already thinking of "we" and you're like, "I just met this person." And this is not just about we have different rhythms.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  This is about attachment, this is about dependency, this is about fear of loss, this is about a lot of other experiences that go and they play out as in, "You didn't invite me." You know, and you say, "Well, you know, I have a life, I have other people I see." I'm like, "No, you know, but I invited you to the, you know, I've taken you to everything that I've been doing." And you're like, "Whoa, this is going too fast." And it looks like it's a rhythm issue because it plays out in rhythm, but it underneath the rhythm is expectations, fears, losses, traumas. It's all of that that is actually being activated in this moment of, "Oh, why didn't you ask me to join you?"

• 40:38Trevor Noah?

  So in that moment, does it mean that people have met the wrong person?

• 40:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 40:44Trevor Noah?

  No?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  No. This is synchronization. Synchronization is learning to live with somebody who, with a different rhythm, including the rhythm of attachment. So it's first of all, understanding. No, it's not, "I just reject you." It's if I didn't call you or if I like to take my day off. It's not because I don't like your company, but I enjoy my own alone as well. How can you experience that without taking it as a rejection?

• 41:11Trevor Noah?

  It's finding where you meet each other, filling in the holes.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  The relationship needs it, and the two individuals participate in the creation of the relationship and how it balances those two fundamental sets.

• 41:27Trevor Noah?

  We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane Wi-Fi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're going to watch something in 4K, and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads.

• 42:12Trevor Noah?

  You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. Then it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 42:48Speaker 03

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• 43:55Trevor Noah?

  What I've always found funny is when I, when I'll talk to couples, especially like couples who've been married for a very long time, I-

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Like me?

• 44:03Trevor Noah?

  Yes, I often find there are, there are couples where they'll, and this is not always the case, but these are the ones that I find most funny because they're on the extremes. I will meet a couple who have so much security. I mean, they, they almost, the other person consistently and constantly exists in their mind and they just believe that they are there. And then I've met couples where they, they're always like unsure, even if they've been married for 20 years. And sometimes the couples who are the most sure will almost complain about it. They'll, like, I've, I've literally talked to people who've gone, "Ah, I wish my husband would cheat on me. I mean, he's so boring. He's home, I know where he'll be." And then on the other side, someone will go, "I, I just don't feel secure and my wife,

• 44:46Trevor Noah?

  I, I feel like she flirts with other men too much." And then the irony will be, the, the couples who are like insecure will go, "Oh, we have the best sex." And then the couples who are, who are talking about like, "We, we're fully there and we know where we'll be and we, we under-" they'll go like, "Yeah, and I just wish we could, I wish we could spice it up." It just feels like it's vanilla, it's, it's all the same.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  And the question is-

• 45:07Trevor Noah?

  No, so the question is, is it always, is it a pendulum that's always gonna swing? And how does a secure relationship couple find the spark that comes from that freedom? And how does a couple that has no security- Find the security that that they need whilst maintaining, or can they even maintain? Do they have to give up some of the spark of the sex? Like, is, what is the compromise that we have to make and do we have to make it?

• 45:31Speaker 02

  And when do we have to make it? Because everything I just described to you doesn't just happen once in a relationship.

• 45:38Trevor Noah?

  What do you mean?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  It means that you come up with a certain kind of dance around this I and we. And then ten, fifteen years into the relationship, five years into the relationship, something happens and it changes.

• 45:50Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow, this is hard work, Esther.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  So, no, it means that, it means that you're not stuck with one model for life, for God's sake. That would be boring and rigid and so predictable. Is that actually, a thriving relationship breeds. It's a living organism and every living organism straddles stability and change. It's true in nature, it's true in relationships. And if you don't change enough, you fossilize and you die. If you change all the time, you dysregulate and you become chaotic. That's the dance, you know. So when something works, you don't let it just sit there like this to the point where it fossilizes completely. Needs arrive, changes take place in in health, in the political situation,

• 46:36Speaker 02

  in the world outside and the world inside. And it says, we need to readapt. You know, if a person gets ill, you readapt. You you you become more available at home because you need to be there until that shifts again. So that, to me, is actually a very positive thing. Is that this dance between I and we, or between security and adventure, needs to breed. It's the best metaphor I can use. And I, you know, mating in captivity, my my first book was all about that tension.

• 47:09Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  But the phrase I often used was fire needs air.

• 47:14Trevor Noah?

  Fire needs air.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  You know, and literally.

• 47:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, literally, quite literally.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  This is the answer to your question between, you know, you don't have to have insecurity to have passion. But you can have space, you can have air, you can have more individuality, more differentiation. There's not one model, seriously, there is no one size fits all. Every model can work if it works for the people that are involved in it. And if it gets, if it breeds, meaning that it it expands and it contracts, it changes, it adapts to the conditions of life. That's actually one of the real strong ingredients of what makes for a thriving relationship, is that it changes. Look, I often say people will have two or three marriages at this point or committed

• 48:02Speaker 02

  relationships in the West in their adult life. And some of us will do it with the same person. Who can do it with the same person? It's those who are able to redefine that dynamic. You know, you arrive here, you're two young people, two immigrants that arrived to New York, you spend a lot of, I've just seen a couple I just saw, you know, the whole first phase of their relationship was about building this togetherness.

• 48:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Helping each other, establish each other, finding the first place that they lived in, getting their first job. And then at one point, that's it, this was created, they had defined the relationship, now they wanted to redefine themselves.

• 48:40Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  That's a classic, it goes in both directions. You know, you have people who have spent a lot of time maintaining themselves and now it's time to actually consolidate the relationship. And consolidated relationship is one of the things so that you can both rely on the relationship. It's like the relationship is the third entity. We start our adult life and, but then there comes a point, you're thirty three now, or thirty nine, and now it's like, and who am I?

• 49:08Trevor Noah?

  You haven't defined yourself alone.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Who am I? You know?

• 49:11Trevor Noah?

  Let me ask you this, I know there are couples who, and this is again, because my favorite thing to do when I speak to people, especially who've been married for a long time, is hearing how they tell their story.

• 49:24Trevor Noah?

  And I've often been most amused by the stories that that are told post everything. You know, I I I remember speaking to a woman who was, I think, ninety two years old. And her husband had died a few years prior. And I remember saying to her, like, oh, how long have you been married? Forty years? And she was happy. And then she said, oh, he was lovely and was beautiful, but how I wish he had died sooner. And I said, I'm sorry, what? I said, I thought you were happy. She says, yes, he was great and everything. But she says, I only realized after he was gone that I hadn't been living. Is there a way to know? Or how do we know? Or is that where people like you come in?

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Know after the fact.

• 50:02Trevor Noah?

  You only know after the fact.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Often, time and perspective. When you're in it, you don't see, you know, if my finger is like close to my nose, I can't see the contours. I have to put it there to see it clearly.

• 50:14Trevor Noah?

  So is there no tool that you can use as a therapist to know? Like, for instance, can you know that it's over for a couple?

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Know, you can know, this woman could know that she, but that doesn't mean she would have done anything. She could know that she's given herself completely over to this relationship and that she she kind of disappeared in the process. But that doesn't mean she will do anything. In the, I just went on tour. So and and there were the questions that people ask systematically.

• 50:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  You know, from audience to audience. How do I have a new relationship where I don't lose myself? That one came up every time. Or my ex-boyfriend was passionate but chaotic. My new boyfriend is stable but boring. You know, that's kind of the the the case you have presented to me before. You know, it's it's either one or the other. And and there is a way in which we enlist our partner in a certain role that we need from them. You know, this woman with her stable and boring boyfriend.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  I'm sure that when she was done with the passionate, you know, chaotic, she said, "Now I want stable, trustworthy, reliable." And none of these words at the time sounded boring. So how did stable become boring? And what does it say when you find yourself wanting that person to be so stable that you, in the process, kind of clip their wings a little bit? You make them more boring in order to make them more secure. And what it may allude to is more about your own fears than about their personality.

• 51:52Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow. This reminds me of something I said to a friend.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  I need you to not leave me, to not be abandoning me, to not be predatory in nature, to not be threatening to me. So I'm going to tame you. In my imagination of you, I'm gonna make you that fellow, that dude.

• 52:09Trevor Noah?

  And then I will get bored of you.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Yes, and then I will say, you know, "He doesn't fantasize." This is a very important thing. Sometimes it says more about my fears and what I need you to be for me than who you really are. And once you have worked in the realm of infidelity, as I have for many, many years, then you know that this is one of the big surprises. Because it's all these people that sometimes people think, "I never thought you were capable of this." Who is this person? Which is such a gutting experience when your entire reality is shattered. So, you know, I, I, when I work around sexuality, when I work around desire, when I work around fantasy,

• 52:54Speaker 02

  I really want to understand what does security represent for you? And here's the thing you can ask. If I think about love, I think of. If I think of sex, I think of. If I am loved, I feel. If I am desired, I feel. If I love, I feel. If I want or if I desire, I feel.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  And then you look at the relationship between love and desire, how they relate and how they conflict.

• 53:32Trevor Noah?

  As we, as we, as we move to the end, the, the big question, I think a lot of people deal with that don't even realize they're dealing with is, how do we, or is there even a way to have a healthy breakup? What does it mean to separate with somebody in a healthy and loving way? Because it seems like there either isn't or there is, you know, you hear ghosting and you hear gaslighting and you hear people love bombing and disappearing and you hear, you know, people disappearing in the relationship and breakup and heartbreak. But how do we separate from people in a healthy way?

• 54:10Speaker 02

  I met a person this, in the last few days, who I thought, what a beautiful separation.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  She said, you know, we are separating. We met, I was very young.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  And I grew up with this person. And, and I think we have come to the end of this story. But my partner is a wonderful parent.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  We continue to have a family life together. We are now platonic co-parents. And at some point, they said to someone else, you know, I've recently separated. And that person said, oh, he must be so hard to live with. And she said, no, absolutely not. He's actually a wonderful person to live with, but I no longer choose to live with him. And I thought, that is a very nice example.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  I care about you. I want good for you. I'm benevolent. I, I don't know what it will be when I see you with someone else. Because we still have something that is very much at the center of our lives. But, but not in the romantic sense anymore.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  When, when they separated, they said what they wished they had done differently, what they wished for the other hands forward, what they wished the other had done differently and what they, and, and what they cherish that they will carry with them.

• 55:41Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  That's my four questions of how I help people, you know. And I often have them write it and read it out loud in the session. But I think that it's about not being filled with resentment and bitterness and competition and fighting around money and fighting over the kids and feeling that you wasted your life and feeling that they betrayed you. I mean, the negative stories that people carry with them are multiple.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  And so it's about, you can be, you can break up. The question is, how are you emotionally able to disengage? People are divorced, and that doesn't mean they are separated.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Emotionally speaking.

• 56:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  So a nice separation is when you arrive to the end of a particular story. And as she said, he will always be in my life. Whoever I will meet from here on will need to know that this person is a major person in my life. But I know different kinds of love, and that love I no longer have for him.

• 56:48Trevor Noah?

  Well, Esther, our story has come to an end, unfortunately. I wish it could have gone on longer. I wish we could have spent more time together, but I know we will in the future. I hope you will always be a part of my story. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for sharing. I mean, it's funny how it feels like everything that you talk about is at the core of what humans are sort of looking for. Like, there's this beautiful thing at the center of of us.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Because the quality of your relationships ultimately is what determines the quality of your life.

• 57:20Trevor Noah?

  I love that. Well, thank you so much, Esther Perel. I hope we see you again.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Thank you. It's a pleasure.

• 57:31Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

• 58:10Speaker 03

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