Is Marques Brownlee the Most Powerful Man in Tech?

Trevor and Christiana chat with YouTuber Marques Brownlee, professionally known as MKBHD and famous for his incredibly popular videos reviewing technology devices. The trio discusses how to survive and thrive in this era of nichification, fake outrage on the internet and its impact on creators, and whether AI is experiencing a PR nightmare or if in fact it will actually be able to kill us in our sleep.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

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• 0:35Trevor Noah?

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• 1:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, booked forever, forever. So I'll tell you one of the funniest stories actually that I've heard from the halls of Congress. You know, in and around the TikTok ban. All these Congress people, senators and you know, Congress, they're like, "We're gonna ban TikTok, we're gonna ban TikTok." And they have this huge meeting about TikTok, right? Apparently what happens is one of the senators goes to like one of the people at TikTok and is like, "This app is disgusting. It's making people hate other people and it's anti-American and it's all of this." And then he goes, "And look at this. Look at the salacious content that it's showing people." And he pulls up his For You page, right? And he goes, "Look at the things that it shows you. The children are seeing these images." And then the person from TikTok very kindly had to say,

• 2:06Trevor Noah?

  "No, I'm sorry, sir. That algorithm is based on what you like looking at. And so all of these titties that you're seeing are an indication of like how you live."

• 2:24Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

• 2:37Trevor Noah?

  Marquez, welcome to the podcast, man.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:41Trevor Noah?

  I'll admit, I've been a fan of yours for a very long time. So this is a selfish podcast. This almost has nothing to do with anything except for my love of tech and my love of what you do. If I think about what this conversation would have been, let's say, I don't know, 10 years ago, it would have just been about gadgets. I'd be like, hey, Marquez, what do you think of the Galaxy? Which one do you think we should get? Oh, what do you think of the HTC? And then maybe like five years ago, I would have been like, VR, what do you think? We're going with the Vive? What do you think we're gonna do? How do you rate the Oculus? I think that's what it would have been. Now I feel like tech has become the forefront of everything that everyone talks about. Tech used to be the realm of like tech nerds.

• 3:22Trevor Noah?

  And then now even like a mom who's not connected to tech, and yes, I'm looking at you, Christiana, is going, what is AI? What is my phone doing? What is technology? Maybe that's the first question I have for you is like, what has it been like being arguably the most influential person in the world of tech? And watching tech go from being a niche conversation to something that even like senators and presidents are talking about now?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  I felt lucky, first of all, as like a content creator, that the topic of my videos is ever evolving and it's ever interesting. So I don't have to be interesting. It's just the tech that always changes. But you're right, the conversations in especially our political atmosphere, like there's way more tech on the tips of people's tongues. I just made a video about AI and everyone's talking about AI now. It's everywhere. So it is, I think how I describe it is the weight of the publish button is a little heavier, but it's a good place to be.

• 4:21Trevor Noah?

  So here's what I think about AI. And I'd love to know, I'd love to know how you see it because you've had such an interesting journey with it.

• 4:30Trevor Noah?

  I think AI is experiencing a weird PR nightmare. Because many of the people who make AI are trying to promise that AI can do everything and will do everything.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:43Trevor Noah?

  Partially because they want the value of their companies to shoot up. Yeah. You know, and they just want billions of dollars. And then maybe partially because they believe some of it, right? But then because they're doing that, people in the streets now think that AI is gonna do everything, can do everything, can think for them, and then is gonna come and kill them in their sleep. And I I feel like, and and again, I I I'm gonna be wrong depending on time. I think in tech, you are always wrong. It just depends on when you are saying the thing, or you're right, it depends on when you're saying it. I feel like most of what AI is gonna be is just like very good at doing stuff for you, assistant world type thing. But I don't think we're getting the Terminator tomorrow. And I'd love to know what you think, because you you play with it way more than I do, but I but you're also like in the space, you know?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so every tech has um, every technology has a bit of a curve to start. It's this really, really steep improvement curve. And then it levels out and then it's sort of flat lines at some point, right? Like, what's the difference between the iPhone fifteen and sixteen? Like, not that much. So we're kind of, we're flattened out with the mature categories, if you will.

• 5:47Trevor Noah?

  I just felt Apple convulse as you said that. Marques Brown, he says, not that much.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  But what's the difference between the first iPhone and the second iPhone? That was like, we've doubled the screen resolution, we've added a camera. Like, there's huge, huge differences, right? So every tech does this, EVs are going through this right now. And AI is doing the same thing, right? So it's going through this really, really steep improvement. And no one knows where the flat line is, which is the concerning part. Is it above human intelligence? Is it right below? Is it way, way higher? Is it gonna take over? We don't know. We just know we're in this steep thing and everyone's sort of projecting it to be this amazing future. And it could be an amazing future. Or not, we don't know. It's just up to the tech, it's up to the people working on it. It's also a little bit up to the people regulating the people working on it.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  But it is in that exciting, interesting, steep phase where everyone pays attention to it.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  In your like, dream scenario, what do you think AI would be able to do for us? Because right now, like, I, I hate AI. I'm scared, I think it's weird shit, I'm scared. I think we should shut it all down. But I'm curious about, you know, kind of like AI enthusiasts, like, what's the best case scenario in terms of this thing helping the world?

• 7:02Trevor Noah?

  This is your moment, Marques, winner over. Winner over for me, please.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Ditch me.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Let me paint you a picture, let me paint you a picture. So your phone is the most useful tool you have, basically. It knows basically everything about you. If you could, and this is something I would love to do, I would like hire a personal assistant that knows everything about me. But most of us don't have that luxury, most of us don't want to pay for that. But picture this. You wake up in the morning and you immediately get a report of where you need to be at what times during the day, of what time you need to leave your house based on traffic, based on your calendar to get to your next appointment. It tells you everything you need to know about your next meeting and who's in that meeting and what you should be bringing to that meeting. And it's just super helpful for you all the time because it knows everything about you.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  That, to me, is pretty sweet. And it's without me having to have a person know everything about me. It's just the AI has the information in my phone and can give me all this value. I think when people picture AI, though, just because it's called intelligence, I think people are picturing like this sort of general human intelligence in the form of a robot, which is maybe not what we need. I think there's a lot, I think there's a lot of humanoid robot shaped things walking around with companies trying to make them do interesting things. And I think when you say you hate AI, you've probably seen some of those too. And I don't, I don't think we need that either.

• 8:31Trevor Noah?

  If, if you were in charge of this, what do you think you would regulate? Because I, I'll be honest with you, I don't think most of the people in the government have an idea of what to regulate because they don't even understand what it is.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:44Trevor Noah?

  And I mean this on like a rudimentary level. I'm not an AI expert, but I know I know a lot more than the people who are supposed to regulate AI. Do you know what I mean?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah, I mean. I guess the whole idea is to prevent it from being able to do bad things or ever doing anything bad. And up until this point, a lot of the regulation has been in the hands of those making it. Like, I'll just use my recent example. I made a video about Sora, which is OpenAI's video generation tool.

• 9:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  And they self-impose their own limits of like, this will not represent people's likenesses. This will not generate anything with, you know, violent acts. It won't do anything with minors. And I think a lot of those very basic, obvious regulations, which is like, okay, this should not be used to harm people. It should not be used to deliberately misinform people. Some version of that is what we're all after. I don't know. Again, I'm not a politician. I don't know how that ends up becoming a law, but we're all after that. We just want it to be safe and not hurt people, but all preserve all the upside of being super useful, super convenient, artificial intelligence.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  I guess I come from it because like, as a writer, all this machine learning, it's taking people's innate and creative thoughts. I think what they're feeding the machine kind of worries me. I think it's plagiarism, right? Like, I understand.

• 10:08Trevor Noah?

  Actually, this is, this is a great, yeah, I mean, you, you experienced this head on, by the way. Like, no, no, Mark Hares, you found out that AI models, they were basically, I wanted, you know, stealing your content, taking your content without your permission, using your work to train themselves. Like, what, what, what exactly happened there? How did you discover this?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. So, on a, on a basic level, these models, in order to be as intelligent as possible, need to know as much as possible. So the company is making them in this race to make them as good as possible. They are trying to train them on as much data as they can possibly get their hands on. Kind of just the entire internet if they can. So if I ask it for a picture of a silver Porsche Macan, then it knows what silver is, it knows what a Porsche Macan is, and it can make that because it knows everything.

• 11:00Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  And it turns out, these enormous data sets with billions and billions of data points. A lot of the pieces of data in them are questionably sourced. They'll come from publicly available, but also just YouTube videos taken from creators. They'll, they'll just start scraping things from websites that, that journalists have written, and they didn't really agree for their work to be scraped, but it's in there too. So I've come across several data sets that have been used to train these models that include hundreds of my videos, hundreds of my videos. And that's concerning because now there is theoretically an ability for someone to

• 11:41Speaker 01

  ask for a video or a photo in the style of an MKBHD video, and it would actually be able to reproduce that. So I feel you. I actually did a video with Sora where I asked it for a video of a tech reviewer.

• 11:56Trevor Noah?

  This was amazing, by the way.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  And all I really asked for was a tech reviewer sitting at a desk with a phone in his hand, and it gave me a generated video of that. And without me asking, it put a little fake green plant on the desk in front of him. I didn't ask for that. That was Sora's own creative decision based on me asking for a tech reviewer. And I saw that plant and I went like, I've seen that plant before. Because that plant has been in many of my videos and many other tech reviewers' videos. And Sora has seen that plant somehow, meaning it's been trained on some data that, that for some reason it thought that there should be one of those plants in that video. So yeah, I kind of have no choice but to believe lots of my work has been taken and

• 12:42Speaker 01

  is being used to train these models. Exactly.

• 12:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  So.

• 12:47Trevor Noah?

  But it's so, it's so random. Do you know what I mean?

• 12:50Speaker 02

  But it's not.

• 12:51Trevor Noah?

  No, no, what I mean is this is not the hallmark of tech reviews. I feel like you're skipping over one of the elephants in the room. You typed in just basic sentence. You said tech reviewer, right?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  And it showed him himself?

• 13:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but it showed you, yo, I thought this was amazing. It showed you a black tech reviewer. I know the plant is like specific.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:08Trevor Noah?

  But I, I also think there's a level of like being the Michael Jordan of this shit that you, that you sometimes, because you're a humble guy, but I, I don't know, man. Was there a little part of you that went, huh? Even AI, if you say tech reviewer, it's like, well, I mean, if you want tech reviewer, the definition of tech reviewer is a person who looks like this.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  A black guy with a plant.

• 13:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and I'm saying this, I'm not even saying this for like, like, you know, some people like, ah, it's a race thing. No, it's not a race thing. It's, it's like, because there is almost nobody in the tech game who is black, who is at your level. Yeah. It is only you, but it's crazy that you've dominated the game that much, that AI goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, this has to be. There must have been a little part of you that felt good.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Maybe a little bit. I, I always have to be careful with that because I can never quite fully attribute. Like, I hear what you're saying. I remember a long, a long time ago, maybe eight, nine, 10 years ago, I went to a conference and there was a little billboard and it was a tech conference and there was a cartoon black character with like this red and black striped shirt. And I, in my profile picture at the time, I was, it had the same hairstyle as me, it was a cartoon and it had the same, I was wearing the same striped shirt and I was like, I, I think that's me. I don't really know if I can say it's me. I'm like 93% sure it's me. But, um, yeah, you know, it's, I think, again, these, these are models that are like using

• 14:36Speaker 01

  uh, some form of a statistical mean to find what they end up creating. It's like, if the thing that you feed it is common enough, it'll spit it out. So if there is enough videos of me in the training data, then you ask for things with keywords that relate to me and it'll probably make something that looks like me and I guess that's what it's supposed to do. Not great.

• 14:57Trevor Noah?

  I think it means you killed it. I, I understand all of the concerns and the privacy and the, but I think there's also a moment of being like, huh, like imagine if the machines do take over, the machines will be like, ah, Markel's, you are Markel's Brownlee. I mean, that's, that's a pretty cool place to be, I think.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  It's like when you Google something, you're the first result. You're like, all right, that's good. I guess.

• 15:18Trevor Noah?

  Exactly. Yeah, depending on what you're Googling, but yeah.

• 15:23Trevor Noah?

  Let's, let's talk a little bit about like, the world that tech inhabits now, like, you know, like when you started off, I've watched that first video that you uploaded. It's, it's a young Markel's and you're just talking about like the devices that you like, you know, and, and you have like, no great uh, equipment. It's you and I think your bedroom.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  Alright, welcome to my first video.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  Bought a new laptop. And I, it's an HP Pavilion DV7T. So of course, I've got the Media Center remote with it. Quite a nice remote.

• 16:04Trevor Noah?

  You know, it's just a kid who likes tech. And that's what tech was for many people. And now, you say tech, people are in front of congress. You know, the European Union is making laws against it. You know, and maybe, maybe I'll clarify by saying it this way. There was a time when hip-hop was niche, right? If you listen to hip-hop, or if you performed hip-hop, people were like, whoa, what is this? The hip-hop, whoa, very interesting. And then now hip-hop is ubiquitous, right? You watch a T-Mobile ad, and there's a hip-hop song playing. That was not a normal thing a very long time ago. I feel like tech is in that space now where it's sort of aged out of being this novel, new idea, and has now become like the dominant force, almost to the point of being like hated, and people being afraid of it.

• 16:50Trevor Noah?

  When you think of like, big tech, or the idea of tech, like where do you think we are, from your perspective?

• 16:58Speaker 01

  The word that comes to mind for me was saturated, but I also think there's a bunch of different parts of tech now. So when I was starting, when you saw that, that old fifteen-year-old video of me holding a little remote control up to the webcam of the laptop, that to me was gadgets. And that's a part of tech, but like, I've always loved gadgets. I've loved the little knickknacks, little camera stuff, a little accessory to my phone that I'm plugging in. Like gadgets have always been, they've always been tech, but that's a part of tech.

• 17:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Another part of tech is social networks, right? So we remember the MySpace days, and then suddenly Facebook comes along, and now, oh wait, you can have both a Facebook and an Instagram, and a Snapchat, oh, and a YouTube channel? Like there's, it's this sudden massive thing, and social networks is a part of tech, but they've grown independently. Then, there's also...

• 17:52Speaker 01

  There's just production too. Like when I started with just that laptop on YouTube,

• 17:58Speaker 01

  that was a good enough video for people to click subscribe. Believe it or not, 15 years ago. I upload that video today and people are like, what happened to you? What went wrong? Because the barrier for entry is so much higher, or not the barrier for entry, but the expectations are so much higher in production and cameras and on YouTube as well. And I love that too. I'm a video nerd, so I'm about that. But yeah, I kind of, I guess I divide tech into a bunch of different buckets and then I have feelings about each of the buckets.

• 18:26Trevor Noah?

  Let's talk about, let's talk about some of those feelings because I feel like you're uniquely positioned to, to get into this.

• 18:33Trevor Noah?

  Social media, that's, that's a tech that everyone understands and everyone's affected by, and it's properly in the spotlight.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:40Trevor Noah?

  My belief is, I think the biggest mistake the United States made was creating that law that immunized tech companies from being sued or held liable for the things that were held on their platforms. Because I think what they've done now is, what is it, section 230? I'm not good with numbers and remembering dates.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 18:59Trevor Noah?

  But I think, I think that's what it was. Because what they've done is they've, they've abused that rule, which was meant to encourage the growth of their business. And now they've made it so that they can push things on us as people.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:11Trevor Noah?

  And not get held liable. Because here's the thing, and I think this is a key distinction for me. If somebody writes something on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, where you put a video, whatever it is. Okay, fine. You did that. I don't think that the company should be held liable. But if they push that video out to people because they think it's catchy and grabby, I don't understand why they're not getting sued or why they're not being held liable. If somebody got radicalized by fake news that was pushed to them and they act on that fake news, how are these companies not liable?

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting what you said was like, social media is one of those things that's just simple and everyone understands it. But I actually do think there's a lot of nuance to it that people don't understand. I think something I learned about YouTube recently, and I literally learned that this year, is I think as a creator, I'm always like trying to make videos that YouTube will push out. And when I ask YouTube about things that I can do in a video to get them to push it more out, they said to me, no, no, no, no, no, that's not actually how this works. YouTube doesn't take videos and push them out. YouTube treats every individual account logging in and goes and searches for the things that they're most likely to watch and brings it in for them.

• 20:22Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow. Wait, wait, say that, say that all again. So YouTube doesn't, so.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  So YouTube isn't pushing my video out to as many people randomly as possible. YouTube is for each individual that logs in pulling videos that they think are good for them and relevant for them. So when you publish a video and it goes really viral and you feel like YouTube's pushing it out for you, what's really happening is you've made a video that the first few people who engage with it really liked it. And then subsequent people who logged in that were similar, YouTube thought, I've seen this type of person before. They're gonna like this video. And then it shared it with that type of person. So you're, you're creating a thing that people have engaged with and YouTube is what feels like rewarding you by hopefully other people, finding those people. Exactly.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  So it does feel like YouTube does bear some responsibility for all of this because they wrote those algorithms. They're responsible for this behavior inside of, of, of that sort of, um, microcosm. But it's not exactly YouTube, like someone at the control is going, all right, push this video. Don't push this video, push this video. So it's complicated.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  So that means there's no YouTube plants. Cause I know loads of people have that conspiracy that YouTube plants these creators. And that's why they're so popular. So you're saying that's, that.

• 21:42Trevor Noah?

  Wait, have you ever been called one of those?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  I've never, no, cause I started from 2009.

• 21:47Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay. You got grandfathered in.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I've seen what you're talking about, which is like someone shows up. What, what really happens is like someone will show up and they'll immediately have like videos with a bunch of celebrities and you're like, how did all these people end up getting on this channel so fast? And that feels like a plant. But there are also channels, I saw a stat this year, the, the top three channels on YouTube, uh, of, for growth this year. Each of them gained independently more than 60 million subscribers each.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  So their videos were so successful and were engaged with so much that of the people who watched them, 60 million people subscribed in a year. So

• 22:28Trevor Noah?

  What all those videos, do you know offhand?

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Oh, there's a lot of shorts. So the number one channel is Mr. Beast. He gained like 110 million subscribers this year.

• 22:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  There's another channel that does a lot of shorts. Again, they've got billions of new views this year from the stuff that they made. And actually, the third one was Cristiano Ronaldo joined YouTube this year.

• 22:47Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  68 million subscribers, yeah.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  That's so interesting because normally like people that are famous, like outside of the realm of the internet, don't necessarily have much success on the internet itself. Because I think like on the online space is filled with people like you, like disruptors, people that are like no one knew of before, they picked up a camera and they blow up on, whether it's Instagram or Twitter or YouTube. And so to hear like Cristiano Ronaldo, of course, he's one of the biggest athletes in the world, but all athletes don't have successful YouTube channels. So there's must be something about him. Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, he's literally one of the top five most famous humans alive. But it is always fascinating to me to see people who are famous outside of the internet attempting to sort of own their own personal image by running their own YouTube channel. And that's what it's for, I think. And a lot of people view it the other way around. If you're building up something on YouTube, a lot of people's goal is to use that to jump off and graduate to something bigger. I want my own show. I want my own whatever it is. But you have people like Will Smith, who are who have been a movie star for decades, starting a YouTube channel and like showing their own personality, for example. It's for people really actually willing to put in the time to share their actual personality with people.

• 24:06Trevor Noah?

  Actually, I actually wonder if that's why some people aren't successful on YouTube, like some if we call them legacy famous.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:13Trevor Noah?

  Because, you know, if you look at celebrities from a bygone era, you know, like the real era of movies and TV and before social media, before any of this, their image was so curated, their image was so insulated that We didn't know them. We thought we knew them, but we didn't know them. Like, I love visiting game companies, like video game companies, right? And then I'll ask them, I'm like, oh, who are you working with? And they're like, oh, we got this new campaign and they'll say some celebrity. And I go, oh, wow, they game? And they're like, no, they don't game at all. But everyone thinks that they game and everyone feels like they're a gamer. And I'm like, huh, that's interesting. And I feel like the reason a lot of those people can't be successful on YouTube

• 24:57Trevor Noah?

  is because there's a realness to creators online that hasn't necessarily been what you needed to be successful in legacy media. Like, would you agree with that? Because I feel like you are the most you person I know, and I don't even know you, by the way.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  There is a type of, I guess it's access to the person that this sort of social media grants you that would maybe ruin the illusion for a lot of people who are curating their image. You think of someone like, I'm just using examples, I don't know these people, but like Beyonce, Taylor Swift, like, I don't know anything about their personality. But I think a lot of people have this really, really pristine image of them because of what's been curated and shared that might be ruined if they started to share way more of their real personality.

• 25:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  The only reason they appeal to 500 million people is because they have this really nice, bright, shiny thing that they've created. And I think for YouTubers, for Twitch streamers, for social media personalities, you may inherently have a lower ceiling because it's just you. But it is a way stronger depth of connection, I think. Like, you can't, this is what people say about going on like the Joe Rogan podcast, like, for four hours, you can't fake a four-hour conversation. Like, it's you after a while.

• 26:16Trevor Noah?

  It all falls apart at hour three.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there is a depth of connection there that really makes it different.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  I want to go back to something you said earlier about, like, if you did the video you did 10-plus years ago today, you probably wouldn't break through, right? So now we have like this higher bar to just get through the noise. Do you think that's like really impacted the type of content creators that we actually now get to become famous?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  A thousand percent. So here's, here's the way I've described it is when I started in 2009, I was one of a few tech channels and that was enough to stand out, which was I log in and I'm interested in tech videos. So I'll find like a dozen channels that do it. Fast forward a couple of years and a bunch more people are starting to do it. So now you have some software tutorial channels. You have some hardware channels, some people who just do unboxings. You might've seen those. Now there's a couple.

• 27:10Trevor Noah?

  You like unboxings?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Handbags though.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  They're fun.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  There's handbags.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  People like unboxings. So now there's, now there's a couple of different types of tech channels, which is cool. Fast forward again, it's 2024 and I promise you there's, and there's a channel for every single niche. There's the Apple channel. There's the anti Apple channel. There's the anti Apple nerd channel. There's the anti Apple unboxings channel. There's the unboxing hardware for accessories for cameras channel. Like every single niche is taken and saturated. And so what we kind of figure out now is the only way to differentiate your content is to just be you. Like you, every niche is fully filled up and taken. And if you stand out at

• 27:55Speaker 01

  all, it's because it's you that people like. Look, I make a video on the new iPhone when it comes out in September and there is about 5,000 other people who are going to unbox the same phone in the same exact way that I unbox it. So why would anybody watch mine? Hopefully I can give you a little bit of entertainment value, a little bit of my personality, and that's enough for you to stick around and watch it. Otherwise you're going to get the same information everywhere.

• 28:21Trevor Noah?

  You know, when you, when you talk about the niche of every category, there's this idea that I've been playing with and I, you know, I could be wrong. One of, one of the, the great gifts we've received from the internet and, you know, social media and everything is the nichefication of everything. If you are interested in something, you can probably find a space where it exists now. So where before we all had to watch the sitcom that was on TV. Now you don't.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:52Trevor Noah?

  You don't like that kind of comedy? You can find your own kind of comedy. You wanna watch a video about people sharpening knives? You can.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:59Trevor Noah?

  You can literally watch.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Big genre on YouTube, by the way, knives.

• 29:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I didn't know this. One of my best friends just loves knife sharpening videos. I have reported him, by the way, to like people who just watch people. Cause I'm just like, it's weird. But I I love him, but I'm also, I've also put him on a list. I think there's something that we we don't realize we've lost because of that. And in a weird way, I feel like you are starting to be part of the solution, even in this niche world. And that is, as everything has become niche, we share fewer places where we have a collective reality.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:29Trevor Noah?

  So now, back in the day, you'd walk into the office or you'd walk into school and you'd go, oh, did you see what happened last night? And we all saw what happened last night. And now you're like, no, what what happened? Oh, you didn't watch that video? No, I didn't see that video. Have you watched the series? I haven't watched that series. Have you streamed this? I haven't gotten to it yet. And now we're starting to lose all the things that brought us together. And then the only things that bring us together now are politics and sports.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:54Trevor Noah?

  So now the only thing you can talk about is, hey, did you see what happened in Ukraine? Oh, yeah, this is gonna be a fun conversation.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 30:01Trevor Noah?

  I feel like you're part of the thing that's done that, but then now you are becoming the the other part, which I think is very important. And that is everyone watches your videos. And I I mean, I use everyone loosely, but let me put it this way. Apple watches it. That's the best way to put it. Do you know what I mean? I knew that we had reached the tipping point when Tim Cook, at an Apple launch, talked about Mark Hes and his YouTube page and MKBHD. Like, I've never seen Apple look for favor from anyone. They've never gone like, the Wall Street Journal loves this phone. But they went, MKBHD called it a. And I was like, damn. So you know, like, how do you, how do you feel about that? Like, yes, niche everything, but then also at the same time, you're becoming,

• 30:46Trevor Noah?

  I don't wanna say mainstream, but a different type of mainstream. Do you know what I mean?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, two main things come to mind. One, the first thing you were talking about, the audience of one. I'm sure you've you've heard this like this filter before, but like, if you fast forward enough in this nichefication, like every single person's, did you see that last night is different. It's a whole bunch of things with one view. Like, nobody is seeing the same stuff. And that's, that's an interesting dystopian future, but that's a whole nother thing. But the other thing you said is that politics and sports bring people together. I feel like I would expand that to just current events, like things that actually happen in real life. So yes, there is fiction and you might watch that series, you might watch that Netflix thing, you might, you know, invest in a storyline here or there. But in the real world, things are

• 31:33Speaker 01

  actually happening. And so that is the thing that sort of brings together humans. That's the defining human experience. The current events of what's actually happening. It's, it's sports, sometimes it's news, sometimes, sometimes it's a tech event and everybody wants to know about the thing that just got unveiled. Lucky for me, I'm one of the people who is involved with showing you what just happened. So I happen to be one of those faces that a lot of people see instead of just one.

• 32:01Trevor Noah?

  Do you, do you think that's part of the reason that you haven't had to resort to crazier and crazier methods of getting views? Because this is something that I've noticed, not just for big YouTubers, but I've also noticed for like, let's say, kids jumping on YouTube now. We've noticed a shift from passively consuming to joining in and creating to not trying to outdo people. So now it's like, it's not enough that you threw a pie at your dad by mistake. Now, your whole life has to be like pies everywhere in the house. And now we're the pie family. And you know what I mean? And then it culminates, you know, it's, I remember when I was on the Daily Show, I, I spoke to, I always forget which brother, Paul or Jake or

• 32:45Speaker 02

  One of the

• 32:46Trevor Noah?

  I always forget, it was Logan or Jake.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  One of them, what, it's the one that punches and the one that does.

• 32:50Trevor Noah?

  They both punch. That's why it got confusing for me. But anyway, he was talking about the video. And he was really, I loved how he broke it down, but he was saying like, this thing became a monster that was pushing me and I couldn't stop it. And he said, I had to do a crazier and crazier and crazier thing. Until I was, I even didn't realize why I was doing it. But it's all about the views. Do you think you've been immunized from that? Like, like, why haven't you had more fireworks in your videos? Why aren't you like driving tanks over phones? What, you know? Is that because you don't have to or is because you you don't want to?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  No, that's, I have an exact answer for that. The star of my videos is not me. The star of my videos is the tech. I'm pointing the camera at the tech, at the gadgets, at the thing that just came out, at the Sora announcement, whatever it is. And I'm a face that happens to walk you through it and guide you through it. But it's, the pressure is on the tech industry to get more and more interesting and advance and advance. And I point the camera at it and that's the subject of the video. For a lot of creators, the subject of the video is them or their life or their family or their stunt. And once you find success with pointing the camera at that thing, the pressure is now on you to one up the last thing you just did.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  And so if you're Jake, if you're Logan, if you're Mr. Beast, if you're, if you're pointing the camera at yourself. And, or I see this a lot with family vlog channels where it's like the kids are in it and now you have to do a crazy thing.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  They keep having babies. Every time the views go down, they have another baby.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  That's a real thing.

• 34:21Trevor Noah?

  Wait, people do that?

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. My favorite genre of family channels is like people that have over seven kids. I just, I'm obsessed with them.

• 34:28Trevor Noah?

  So people have more babies to get more views?

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Babies are great for views, gender reveals, you know. It's very cynical, it's kind of dark, but like family vlog channels are driven by like how many kids you can have.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  So that's the internal thing that I have is I, the, the star of the show is the tech, not me. But if you find yourself making videos where the star of the show is you or your life or your daily vlog or your family, best believe that has a sort of a cap, that has a sort of a ticking time bomb.

• 34:55Trevor Noah?

  I hear what you're saying there and I agree with it. But the one, one part that sticks out to me is, is you. So I hear what you're saying, but like, I think of like the video that you did about golf or the, the PGA. I mean, I like tech, but I'm not a big golf person. I watched that video because of you. And I think, I know what you mean, I know what you mean about aiming the camera and you could argue again, oh yes, but Trevor, the tech at the golf was the star and I was just there. But then I argue there's some videos of yours now that don't even have the tech, right? So when you were talking about ultimate frisbee, which we got to get into, by the way, like this man is like an elite athlete.

• 35:39Trevor Noah?

  Bucking every trend of tech here, by the way, right?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 35:45Trevor Noah?

  When you spoke about that, that's just you. That video didn't get three views. It's not like people were like, shut up, don't talk about your life and frisbees and people were like, oh, man, this is amazing. You're ultimate frisbee. You have the world championships and you're competing at the highest level and then you won. You came back with a medal and you showed us the medal and so have you noticed that now, even without the tech in the video, people are still there for you and the conversation?

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so you're right. It's a little bit of a balancing act. I remember maybe five, six years, a little longer ago. There was a little bit of a trend. There was a whole bunch of YouTube channels doing tech videos that never showed their face. And I thought it was fascinating. And I was like, what if I was a faceless tech YouTube channel? And for a couple of months I was, I stopped showing my face. It was just the voice.

• 36:33Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  And it was just, it was this nice anonymous feeling. And what I sort of learned from that is people do connect with the character. People start to trust the character that is giving them information, that is telling them how they wanna, you know, what you might buy. And my videos, when they were at their best, were sort of just like a conversation. They were like, it would be like me and you like, what, so what phone do you have now? Which one are you trying to get? Cause I think my HTC one is about to die and I think this new one's not that great. So I should be looking at Samsung. And so while the tech is still what we are talking about in our conversation, you're right, there is an element of, are you good at presenting the tech?

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Are you good at stealing information and making it digestible to a certain audience? Do you know who your audience is? Can you speak to them? That's a fraction of it for sure. So maybe it's 70% subject, 30% host. Sure, I'll accept the pat on the back that I do have a little bit of a

• 37:29Trevor Noah?

  You deserve it.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  little charm going for me. Sure.

• 37:32Trevor Noah?

  We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

• 37:37Trevor Noah?

  Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane Wi-Fi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is Smart Downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you

• 38:22Trevor Noah?

  based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, "Ah, I didn't download anything." And it's like, "No, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox." And with Background Play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So, if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows.

• 39:07Trevor Noah?

  You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick, from Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 39:27Trevor Noah?

  Therapy is one of those things lots of people talk themselves out of without even realizing it, like it's too expensive or it's too overwhelming figuring out even where you're gonna start. But Rula is one way to make that first step feel a lot more doable, offering accessible, affordable therapy that fits your needs. Sign up in just a few minutes and get matched with a therapist who fits what you're looking for. Need to talk to someone quickly? Appointments are often available as soon as the next day. And with insurance, sessions average around a $15 copay. You can also see estimated costs upfront, so there's a lot more clarity going in. And in terms of outcomes, 93% of Rula patients report symptom improvement.

• 40:12Trevor Noah?

  If therapy's been sitting in the back of your mind, Rula is a pretty simple way to take that first step. So, turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com. That's R-U-L-A dot com to find a therapist the easy way.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  You know, I'm really curious because there's always like this kind of trope of the people that run these tech companies, they have minimal tech in their personal lives and they're very keen that their children have no exposure to tech, right? So there's a story about Steve Jobs and, you know, all these people, they don't let their kids have iPads.

• 40:53Trevor Noah?

  Most, most of the people who like work high up at Facebook, when they throw birthday parties and those types of things for their kids, they have a sign that says no social media, no phones, no posting, no collecting, no, yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's always been like this interesting paradox because they like they sell this stuff to other people and a lot of like won't out parents, you know, the iPad kid is kind of a trope of being in the restaurant and just like swiping on the iPad, right?

• 41:22Trevor Noah?

  Cocoon melon for the win.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm curious about your thoughts on it, about how much should children have access to whether it's iPhones, the Gab, which is really popular, that I know a lot of kids have these watches, what are your feelings on it?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  That is such an interesting question. So I don't have kids, so I, I, this is, I'm gonna have to come up to this decision at some point where it's like, how young are we going to let them use the internet or a phone or a screen at all?

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And we've all seen Wally. We've all seen that, that like, um, you know, the dystopian future where humans are just blobs sitting around in chairs, watching screens all the time. And that feels like the, if you let it go too far, where we'll end up. But yeah, I just, I think there is, there's obviously a healthy balance. You have to try to strike to not just be constantly on your screen. And everyone's going to draw that line in a different place. I personally try to put my phone away by a certain hour. I try not, I try to actually start my day, hopefully by getting all the way to work without looking at my phone, which is hard. It's really hard. So yeah, there's, the line's going to be a different place for everyone. But I suspect that those people draw the line as conservatively as they possibly can, because they've seen, they've seen the other side.

• 42:34Trevor Noah?

  Speak, speaking of, um, like just ramifications in general, I want to go back a little bit to the personality of everything. I feel like this year was an interesting year for MKBHD, like for you as a person, right? Because in all the time I've been watching you and following you, you have been, and I mean this in the most like respectful and loving way, you've been like, non-offensive, non-anything. And then this year was the first time where it felt like people started having different types of opinions about MKBHD. One was when, when you launched the, um, the app, the wallpapers app, right? And people were really angry and they were coming at you. And, and my question is not so much about the incident, because I think everyone in life is going to have some sort of, if you're in public,

• 43:18Trevor Noah?

  and maybe even in private, there's going to be something you do that people don't like, right? And there's degrees of this. Some people, it's a wallpapers app. Some people, it's a war crime. All right. We have degrees. But like, you did this, and then you had another video where you were driving, uh, I think it was a Ferrari, uh, very fast, which I-

• 43:34Speaker 02

  Which I know what Ferraris are for.

• 43:36Trevor Noah?

  Which I, can I, so can I tell you something? Just, can I just say this, just as an aside, just as an aside, this is my thing. I feel like it's all a trap. I'll tell you why.

• 43:45Trevor Noah?

  Cars are governed, right? Cars are limited at a certain speed. They literally do this to cars. And it's like, it'll be a law sometimes, but they'll say, this car cannot go over this speed. The car can go over that speed, but they'll govern the car. I'm always like, why do they give us the car? Why don't they just put the governing at the speed limit? That's just my conspiracy theory and I'm not bringing anyone else into it. But going back to everything, so you drive the car. You have the wallpaper zap. What really fascinated me was how you handled it. No PR team, no crisis response, no. I'm gonna paraphrase your tweet, but basically you came out and you were like, hey, guys, I messed up. I didn't explain what I was trying to do here. I was trying to create this app for creators where they can actually earn money. So people are not just downloading stuff online and they don't get the money.

• 44:30Trevor Noah?

  And this is what I was trying to do. You're right, I messed up with the ads and this thing. And I'm gonna figure this out. We're gonna tweak it, we'll put it down, we'll change. Yeah, my bad. And you're like, and that was that. And then with the car video as well, you're like, hey, that was a stupid decision. I don't know why I did that, shouldn't have done it. Sorry about that, don't do it yourself. But what struck me was how. I don't know if unafraid is the right word. Maybe it's like authentically unafraid you were. Help me understand how you navigated those moments because I know personally, and I don't speak for everybody, but a lot of people were like, they were really impressed that you just said, hey, this is what happened. And I want to know how you came to that because you're big enough that you could have a PR company and you're big enough that you could have a publicist who's like handling that for you.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  There's, I think, a bit of a misconception about YouTubers now versus a long time ago. I think a long time ago, YouTuber was one person uploading to their channel and it was just them and that was it, maybe one or two people. And now everyone more or less understands that it's a job now and people have teams and they have like PR and they have editors and there's these whole operations. And I think a lot of people forget that there's still people under there. And so I think when, when I'm sort of talking to my audience, I just want to talk to them as me, like I always have. When it was just me versus when it was my team now, I've always wanted to talk to them as just me.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  And then the other thing is, I mentioned this earlier, but the weight of the publish button being heavier than ever is, is actually taking that like really seriously. So a lot of times I'll sort of casually drop a, you know, a clip in my video or, or drop something in a video where I think, yeah, it'll be cool if some people see this or notice this. And then the next day, the video goes up and there's articles about it. There's like in the news posts about it. And I realized, oh, right. This is, this is way more of a big deal than I originally intended.

• 46:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  The weight of that button is so heavy, right? So, so, you know, panels, the wallpaper app, to me, that was just like, I figured I would casually drop it in my iPhone review and then people would check it out. And it was like, no, no, no, I, I really should have explained that way more. And I, I realized that in public, like failing in public is a thing that we do now. And sort of owning that. And the other one was, you know, putting a clip from an action cam of, of test driving a Lamborghini. And it's like,

• 46:56Trevor Noah?

  I thought it was a Ferrari.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of people, again, there's a ton of articles about it and half of them are saying things like it was a school zone, even though it was a sign that said one thing that they're kind of just parroting. And there's no context that makes it okay, but I, I should always know that the weight of the publish button is heavy. And any one thing that I do can feel very casual, but it's also putting it in front of 20, 20 million people. It can feel like an endorsement of something, even if it's just a casual mention. But at the end of the day, you know, I'm a person, I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue to screw up in the future and hopefully continue to talk to my audience as me, as a person that that makes mistakes and learns from them and hopefully gets better and evolves over time. So that's the goal.

• 47:39Trevor Noah?

  I, so here's my thing. I hope you don't change too much. And I'll tell you why. I say this because it's something I've grappled with. I, I actually think that there's a, a fake outrage machine that oftentimes feeds on some real outrage. Don't get me wrong. But I think there's like a fake outrage machine that we've encouraged too much. Right? And, and the reason I say the fake outrage part of it is like, sometimes people can be outraged in a fun way. And I think we all, we should all be allowed to do that as human beings. I do it with you, Christiana. I hope you do it, you know, Marquez with your friends. Sometimes it's fun to be like, I can't believe they did that. Bah, ha, ha, whatever. Great. But I've noticed there's this weird like tail wagging the dog effect that's happening now in life where.

• 48:25Trevor Noah?

  The the news, and I've I've watched this happen, right? We'd be at the Daily Show talking about these things. A few people online would say something. And when I say a few, I mean a few, a few hundred, right? Would say something online. The news, like as in like mainstream, you know, like, let's say CBS and NBC and CNN. They would report on it and they would say, you know, uh, this person taking flak from social media. And then they'd start posting the things up. Many people commenting on how they're putting people in danger. And they put those things up and they put, and then they start putting up the post and they're putting up the post. And then they talk about it like it is news. But I'm like, no, no, you're also making news. This is a very sinister thing that you're doing.

• 49:10Trevor Noah?

  And then the thing gets bigger online and so the news reports.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  Kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy.

• 49:14Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and then there's a part of me that goes, and please don't get me wrong. I I'm not like bandwagoning, I'm I'm not even like trying to gas you up. I go like, yeah, okay, you screwed up. But I just feel like there's like a level of outrage that's not real.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  That's like disproportionate to what actually happens.

• 49:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like like people made it seem like you drove through a playground is is the way I'm saying it. All right. And and people made it seem like you raided their bank accounts and hacked them to steal money for a wallpapers app. And while I get criticism, criticism, I think, is very different to outrage. Someone can say, hey, I didn't think you did that the right way. Outrage is when someone goes, this hurt me deeply, Marquez. This wallpapers app has, and I'm just like, yo, man, is this is this a real thing?

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:58Trevor Noah?

  And even in my own life, I tried my best to be cognizant of those moments where I'm participating in it. But then also like as a person putting stuff out, I think it's part of the reason people feel like there's like shackles that they need to break in society now where they're like, wh- what? No, actually, that person didn't mean that. Marquez wasn't trying to kill anyone. Trevor wasn't trying to like, you know, incite violence. Cristiano wasn't trying to.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  That's why I wanted to ask him, because you keep saying that, um. The weight of the publish button feels heavy, which is like very grave, I think, for like existing online. Do you miss the days when it wasn't heavy? When you kind of, it was this creative space where you could explore and talk about the things you love without being afraid of like this outrage machine?

• 50:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you're a tech reviewer.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  For the rollout of a product that you were excited about or, you know, being silly. Do you miss when it was just like, I would publish because I like this shit? And I, I want people to be into what I'm into or what I don't like, you know?

• 50:55Speaker 01

  It is a privilege to have that sort of pressure. Like I, back in the day, yeah, I was just, I was just publishing whatever. I would make a video that was literally one take. I would do a 90 second video and as soon as I hit stop recording and the file appeared on my desktop, I would upload that video. It was that, it was that easy, right?

• 51:11Trevor Noah?

  Ah, the good old days.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  And that was fun and that was the good old days and there was a casualness about it and it was fun. But a lot of what we're able to do, a lot of like the PGA tour, pulling back the curtain and going, yeah, we would love to show you all the tech that goes into a broadcast and we would love for you to show it with your audience. That comes with also the downside of the coin, which is everyone with like binoculars on everything you ever do. So yeah, you know, a part of me does miss the old days of that a little bit, but I, I do feel like treating it with respect. Like the only reason we get to do these cool things is because a lot of people care a lot about what we say. So I'm, I'm willing to accept that.

• 51:51Trevor Noah?

  How, how do you find the balance though? Cause, cause here's, here's the loop I sometimes think about. People love you because you're genuine. A genuine person comes with complexities. You and I talk about this all the time. You'll say a thing and then I'll be like, no ways. And I fight with you, but we're friends.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:05Trevor Noah?

  And I'll say a thing that'll do the same thing to you. But we, we know that we are people in our full complexities. How do you, how do you find that balance between saying, this is me? This is what I feel or this is how I was gonna say it? With the, oh, I want to get invited to the PGA? Because I, I think sometimes there's this weird little tipping point, if we're not careful, where we start to lose a little bit of what got us there in the first place.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  The source.

• 52:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the source of it. And I'd love to know, how do you keep your source? Like, how do you make sure that you're still you? And then manage the weight of the publish button?

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think a lot of people have said things like, oh, you know, if you're not really a, if you don't make tech, then how do you evaluate tech? Like, if you're not coding, then how do you review an app? What I've found is I feel like I'm basically a professional user. I use tech and I'm able to show you my experience using it. And so my guiding, like, North Star for that is I'm just gonna show you the truth. I'm gonna show you how it actually went. I'm gonna tell you what actually happened. I'm gonna share with you what I actually saw. And as long as I'm delivering that truth, I don't really worry about too much else. It might be a little harsh in the way I say it. It might be a little bit light in the way I say it. And you may take issue with one or the other. But, you know, I'll do a shout out to, a couple of months ago, I reviewed

• 53:22Speaker 01

  the Humane AI Pin and the Rabbit R1.

• 53:25Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  And I had a lot of negative things to say about them because they just didn't work. They were bad.

• 53:31Trevor Noah?

  You're still being nice.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  People were much harsher than me, saying things like, oh, you know, they're scams, or they should be illegal, these companies should go out of business, or whatever. I just told, look, this is the worst product I've ever reviewed. I've reviewed a lot of stuff, and these are really, truly at the bottom. They're really bad. And I showed all that stuff. And when I started to get backlash for, oh, you were too harsh on them, or you said, you know, you were too mean in these ways that you said it. I can accept that, but what I'll always fall back on was, was I wrong? Was I, did I say anything incorrect? I showed you all this stuff, right? So I don't really worry too much about, you know, trying to make everyone happy or trying to nuance my way into wording things in a way that I get invited to the thing. It's like, you know what? If you value the truth, I'm here for that.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  And all the other stuff is, sort of sheds to the side.

• 54:20Trevor Noah?

  One of the reviews that touched me personally was, and again, this is one of those where you got both the credit and the criticism unfairly, is when you were reviewing the Fisca, right? So I remember I drove a Karma way back in the day. I've always loved electric cars and the idea of them. And I drove one back in the day, was the greatest idea, some of the worst execution. But I love the idea. And I think if you love tech, you actually love. Not necessarily the thing working.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  The effort.

• 54:49Trevor Noah?

  But the idea behind it, you know, I, I think you're the same. I love it when like the Apple Vision Pro. I hated that people slammed it as opposed to going like, wow. Apple's trying something new.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:59Trevor Noah?

  And you got like, that was an interesting level as well, where they were like, Marquez, not only are you slating these products, you have now ended a company and you've put people out of their jobs. Other, like in those moments, do you, do you laugh? Do you sigh? Do you like, how do you even process that? Because it's one thing if, you know, it's like a wallpapers app. It's another thing when people think that you and your comments are shutting down a company that makes cars.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so all I can say to those is, as long as I'm still telling the truth, which is the anchor of all of this, all I did was accelerate what was already happening. If, if it was me saying something about the car that took the company from S tier to shutting down, then I was probably lying, no? Like if this company was doing amazing things with an amazing product and everybody loved it, I would probably find the reasons why people loved it and pretty good chance I would like it too. And if I hated it, there would be some reason why. So me coming along, telling the truth about a product and then people going, mm, bad product. Well, if it was a bad product, that was gonna happen sooner or later anyway.

• 56:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  By the way, fun fact, I drove the Karma as well years ago. I never even made a video about it because I didn't have enough things to say about it. So that one kind of slipped by and so it was this fisker that happened to get a video, but. Yeah, there was, you know, it's also funny is, you probably saw a lot of the, the negative comments there, but even in videos like that, I still get it from both sides, which is interesting.

• 56:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  I get a lot of you were too harsh and I also get a lot of, this car was, I've never seen a car this bad. You should have been more mean about this car. And I, I think if you see both sides, you, if you're probably somewhere in the middle with the truth, you're doing something good.

• 56:48Trevor Noah?

  My uh, my experience with the Fisker was I drove it in L A. So it was actually Jay Leno said to me, uh, this is long before The Daily Show, by the way. This is like, nobody knows me.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:00Trevor Noah?

  I'm just a random comedian traveling around America. And I meet Jay Leno at the Comedy and Magic Club in Hermosa, Hermosa Beach. Jay and I are talking, we're talking about cars and he's like, oh, the Fisker, you, you gotta. And I was like, what, this car? And he's like, drive it. He's like, don't buy it, kid. Don't buy it. He's like, whatever you do, don't buy it, but you gotta drive it. It's, you know? And so I, I rented one and my experience was I was driving and I was on the highway that goes to Pasadena. And in traffic, the car's electronic system all like died on me, right? The windows went down, so the car was still driving, but I could do nothing and I could see nothing. But the radio went to full volume and it was, I'll never forget, it was playing Power 106.

• 57:45Trevor Noah?

  And I'm in the traffic, everything, and it was Tupac hit him up.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  And you couldn't turn it down?

• 57:50Trevor Noah?

  No, couldn't do anything. Couldn't do anything.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  This is why I don't like electric cars.

• 57:53Trevor Noah?

  And I'm in the traffic and I'll never forget people looking at me and you think, you know, oh yeah, loud. Loud music is cool if you want loud music, but you know when everyone in traffic is driving past you and you, you're sitting there like. It was the, it was the meekest paradox between what Tupac was saying and how I was expressing my like. It was just like one of those more. So when you made that video, I was like, thank you, Marquez. You have avenged, you have avenged young Trevor for everything he experienced. I actually wonder like, do you think the reviews you got on wallpapers? Has in any way affected how you're gonna give reviews? Like, do you think, do you think as a creator of something, you're now going to review things differently? Are we gonna lose like the source of you being harsh because now you, you're sort of in the game? Even if it's just like a tippy toe in the game?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  No, you know what's funny? I actually feel like I understand things a little bit better now. You know, sometimes I'll go to a briefing or some sort of meeting where they're showing me a new device. And they're doing the presentation and behind the person giving the presentation, there's like eight or nine engineers like, okay, this is it. They're always so enthusiastic. They've been working on this thing and they're like, "Try the thing that I worked on." And I've always appreciated that. Like, it takes a lot to put this stuff together and to sort of, you know, again, we say we hate these products when they're bad, but like to try to make something that's any good does take a lot of effort. So I've always appreciated that. And I think, yeah, I maybe have a little bit, a little bit more sympathy now for, you know, any words of like, "They didn't seem to try on this at all."

• 59:22Speaker 01

  It's like, well, I know somebody tried on this, but they might not have gotten it done, or they might have run out of time, or they might have just, they might have to improve this with a software update. There's a little, yeah, sure, a little soft spot now for a little bit of the builder side. Sure.

• 59:38Trevor Noah?

  Don't go anywhere because we've got more What Now after this.

• 59:43Trevor Noah?

  Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner or watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now.

• 1:00:02Trevor Noah?

  But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane Wi-Fi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So.

• 1:00:47Trevor Noah?

  If you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Thanksgiving is one of those meals where every dish carries a little more meaning, because the table is rarely about the people around it. Whole Foods Market helps take some of the pressure off with quality proteins, seasonal treats, and easy solutions for the days surrounding the holiday. Start with turkey, or a bone-in or boneless ham from the meat department, all with no antibiotics ever. Add seasonal bakery favorites like holiday cookie platters, tea breads, and pies, all made without high-fructose corn syrup.

• 1:01:31Trevor Noah?

  For the days before or after Thanksgiving, marinated meats and prepared sides make dinner easier. The Build Your Own Family Meal feeds four for $35.00. In-store only. Seasonal candles and body care essentials can help with gifting or serve as a well-earned treat for the host. Their standards leave out artificial sweeteners, artificial colors, and high-fructose corn syrup, helping the flavors you want stay at the center of the table. Shop Thanksgiving favorites with higher standards at Whole Foods Markets. Verizon knows that holiday decisions and holiday deals can be complicated. Every year, I tell myself I'm gonna keep the holidays simple, and then the invitations start. They start coming in. Should I go to the party? Should I stay at home? If I go, do I bring a gift?

• 1:02:15Trevor Noah?

  If I bring a gift, does everyone get a gift? And why does someone have an organized secret Santa where the spending limit is $50 but the minimum is 75? How does that even make sense? It's not a gift exchange, that's a financial audit. And then there's the food. Do I cook? Do I order? Do I pretend I cooked? Because I mean, I feel like if you transfer something into your own serving dish, legally you've participated in the preparation, alright? Well, if you want a holiday decision that's not complicated, switching to Simplicity Plan from Verizon is the one for you. One plan, one price, just $30 a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Switching to Verizon and shopping their best deals is simple.

• 1:02:58Trevor Noah?

  For new customers, $30 a line includes auto-pay and Switch discount. Unlimited data is restricted to on-device smartphone usage. Domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. Additional taxes, fees, and terms apply.

• 1:03:17Trevor Noah?

  The thing I want to talk to you before we go is what I've been calling with my friends, the shitification of everything. I mean it in every field. I mean it in politics. I think politics has become shitified in a way where it's so broken that people don't like it, but it's supposed to be for the people, right? You know, you feel like this with products. Tech is one of those areas where, I don't want to sound like a grumpy old man, but I feel like we're living in an age of shitification, you know? So you talk about the rabbit, you talk about the humane. I pre-ordered and bought both of those. I love gadgets and I love tech. When I look at the amount of tech that comes out now that isn't ready, I'm like, how are you allowed to sell something to somebody

• 1:04:01Trevor Noah?

  and then tell them after they've purchased it that they have to wait for the thing to work? I'm just like, what? Because you can't do that the other way, right? I can't go to the store and buy the phone and be like, "Hey, I know the money I gave you right now is monopoly money, but in a few months, it's going to update into real dollars and then you can use this."

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  Oh, what I hate is the printers that you have to subscribe to for them to print.

• 1:04:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's the shitification of, like, everything has become a service now.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  It's just so scammy and weird and like...

• 1:04:28Trevor Noah?

  It's the shitification of everything, right? And even like a company like Apple that's been above it for a long time. Like, I want Apple's phone to work, right? I want the iPhone to work. But like, they were like, "Apple Intelligence, Apple Intelligence", and then the phone comes out, there's no intelligence. And then they're like, "And now the next update", and they're still like, "Not the intelligence", I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait. So you held a launch telling us what it was going to be? It wasn't.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Trevor Noah?

  You then released a phone where all the billboards were advertising the features of that phone? It wasn't, right? You told us what the phone can do. It cannot. At what point do we go, "This is a scam"? And I wonder, like, because you live in so much more tech than most of us do, I wonder if you've, A, experienced it the same, if you think there's something there, and then, B, what do you think is driving it? Maybe even just through the lens of tech and everything you've seen?

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Totally. Okay, so I think with most reasonable things, there's two sides of every coin, right? And we are both mostly experiencing it on the consumer side. So we are trying to spend our money on something that is hopefully good. And there are lots of things that you can buy that are fine. And you don't really think twice about it. It's like, I just bought these headphones. They're ninety bucks. They showed up on Amazon. They were fine. I plugged in, whatever, great. I'm not gonna remember that. And then every once in a while, there's a couple that really suck. And you have a really strong reaction to that. As a consumer, we feel validated in that. I can't believe you're advertising this thing is gonna be good and it doesn't even exist yet. This seems horrible. Let me just flip that coin real quick. If you work for any of these tech companies,

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  there is an immense pressure to make something that is leading and that is incredible, that stands out. And that is very, very, very, very hard. I mean, every, once every decade, maybe, we get something that kind of feels that good. Like, the original iPhone, maybe, was one of the last ones that we remember in our lifetime. And a lot of these companies and these people that lead these teams and that work on these projects and that engineer and that do these things, they all feel this pressure. And whatever opportunity they feel like they can latch on to, to maybe have a shot at making that next big thing, they're gonna try to take it. And if they appear to be lagging, they have failed again.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  And so AI comes along, right? Okay, so I'm a startup. I wanna make something, maybe I can make kind of like the next iPhone, but it's AI in a box. And maybe it's not a phone, but it's a pin. And they try to put this thing together. Oh, but I see that company over there is working on something too. So I gotta rush and put mine out. And it's out. And it's out way too early. And it's not done yet. And you see the promises they're making earnestly. They're like, I promise in a year, this will be the greatest product you've ever bought. Just give us more time to work on it. And again, on the consumer side, I'm like, bro, we don't care. I gave you real money today. Why does this thing so bad? I'm returning it. It's too expensive. It's a subscription. I don't want this garbage. They're not trying to scam you. They're actually trying to make something good.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  There's just so much pressure to be early and to be amazing. And tech is really, really hard to make early and amazing. It's probably either early or amazing, not both. And I understand that most of it will not be both early and amazing. So stop promising it will be like you don't. I know that you have to get your share price up and whatever you have to appease.

• 1:07:52Trevor Noah?

  I don't think they're trying to scam us, to be honest. And I love engineers, right? I've spent like, what, seven, eight years working with engineers at Microsoft. This is like what I do as one of my favorite passions, right? But I think it's not that they're trying to scam us. I think that's that they're trying to scam Wall Street. It's like they're trying to scam analysts, like they're trying to scam like Apple. I think one of the things that's always made them so good is the fact that they've tried to make the thing right, not first. And that's served them well. And I feel like

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  I mean, they don't invent things. That's never been their job. The phone already existed and they made the best version of a phone. You know, a watch existed. They made a best version of a digital watch.

• 1:08:31Trevor Noah?

  Like the Apple Vision Pro. This is the first time it felt like they were chasing because they didn't want the negative side of not being seen to chase. And they did a thing that wasn't ready and was. But I was like, oh, man, you too? It's like, you know, I feel like if the shitification catches Apple, we're all in trouble in every other field. You know what I mean?

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  If they're the company that is the iPhone company, you're you all. Y'all are the ones in 2007 that reinvented the phone that everyone carries now. I think when they looked around in 2007, you know, there were phones, but I don't think they looked around and thought, wow. There is a lot of people working on this really, really amazing capacitive touchscreen, multi-touch media player. This was a genuinely new, like, series of things to combine to make the iPhone what it was, which is why it hit so hard.

• 1:09:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  I think this moment was different, which is there is an immense pressure. If you are a tech company, I better see some AI in your products or I don't think you're leading at all. And I think they looked around and they saw everyone else. They saw Google. They saw Meta. They saw everyone making AI stuff. They saw startups making AI stuff. And they felt like if they don't do anything AI, even if if you're like a year behind or two years behind, you're gonna look behind. And that's a reputation thing. It's a pride thing. It's a shareholder thing. And they felt pressured to do something now. So they did. They announced that they'd make Apple Intelligence and that it would show up soon in software updates. And yeah, it's it slowly started to trickle out.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  But that did feel like it was very differently inspired than some of their original successes. They're they're very much pressured.

• 1:10:14Trevor Noah?

  Christian, do you have any Luddite questions for Marquez? Because I know.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  Why my questions are so basic?

• 1:10:19Trevor Noah?

  No, can I tell you why I think they're amazing? And I mean this honestly, because our friend David is also mega Luddite. He said something to me that I that has resonated with me. He said, the stupidest people in tech are the most important ones because that's who everyone is. Could you represent the people in this?

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Well, my favorite video is you wore like four watches and you did the step count. Right? And I currently use a step count for my phone. I use my iPhone. I know that's not that accurate. So I love that video of yours. I want to know like your most practical tech product that you think like boring Luddite moms like me can go and buy and be like, this is actually making my life better.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, wow. I mean, there's so few things that are truly like value add.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  No, because I like that step thing. Because this is like, I do like to know how many steps I'm getting in. Like, it's a thing that people do like to know, like 10,000 steps. I know it's a myth, but we like, but I'm like, what is the product that you'd be like, buy this? It is gonna make your life that bit better. It's what technology is supposed to do.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  So I could go on the theme of that because like everyone cares about different things. And if you care about the step counter, to me, there's a theme of like, I care about the metrics in my life. Like, I have the Apple Watch and it tells me all sorts of, here's what your heart rate, resting heart rate has been.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  How I'm sleeping and you know.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  How I'm sleeping.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's fun. You can get a smart scale. And for me, that's been telling me all sorts of things, trends over time. So that's that's an interesting one, too.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  I didn't even know smart scales existed.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  So they so that's one. So Withings is a company that makes smart scales. You step on it, connects to an app. And yeah, the battery dies every couple of months. So you're like annoyed that you need to recharge your scale. I started taking creatine a month ago. So I'm like tracking how it's affecting my weight. It's like actually kind of informative. So that's kind of cool.

• 1:12:07Trevor Noah?

  Wait, why'd you start taking creatine?

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Because I have a bunch of teammates who have been taking it for years and they're like, how have you not started trying it? Like, I'm willing to try it.

• 1:12:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but you won.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. No, see, here's the thing about winning is everyone's at your throat now. You gotta get better. Someone's gonna, someone else is gonna find a way to get better than you.

• 1:12:27Trevor Noah?

  Man, you see, you're caught up in the game now, Marquez. This is what I'm talking about.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  I've been caught up in the game, though.

• 1:12:32Trevor Noah?

  You guys won, doing the thing the way you did it. And now you're so worried about losing your spot at the top that you're gonna release AI Marquez before it's ready.

• 1:12:42Trevor Noah?

  What is it about, it's ultimate frisbee, right?

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Ultimate frisbee, yeah. I'm working on a video. I gotta explain it, because it's always complicated.

• 1:12:49Trevor Noah?

  Okay, great, great. Then don't spoil it here. Then don't spoil it here. We'll all look out for that. The last thing I have to ask you, because I know my brother and his friends and a whole bunch of people would kill me if I didn't, is, if you were talking to a young Marquez today, who wants to get into the game? Because back in the day, people would wanna get into like the TV game, before that people wanted to get into the radio game or whatever. You are now that, that, that step. Like, you are the thing that a child in school says, "I want to be a Marquez." Why would you say they should do it? And why would you say they shouldn't do it?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  I would say being a social media person as a career is very similar to being a professional athlete. In that, you really have to like doing this to be able to put in the number of hours and the amount of work required to actually make it your job. Take basketball. Basketball, you could play in the park. You could play for free. You could play against your friends. But if I wanna be a professional basketball player, there's some level of, first of all, luck, but dedication, hard work, that goes into hopefully getting you over to the next level to actually be able to make it your job. And it's very competitive even while it is your job. And so, think about, before you start,

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  if this is something that you actually like doing enough to be able to put those hours in. Because people see the final result, but are you willing to put in those hours?

• 1:14:19Trevor Noah?

  How long does it take you to make a video just so people... Because again, some people watch the video and they're like, "Well, I watched the video and it was 15 minutes." It took you 15 minutes.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, maybe, so we're working on a Smartphone Awards video right now, which it's gonna be a 30-minute video when it comes out, but it's gonna take a week to edit this video. A lot of them take a week to write before they take a week to edit.

• 1:14:44Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  We just had a call today of a video we're planning that should hopefully come out around May, so four to six months. So, it depends on the video, but they don't take no time. I'll put it that way.

• 1:14:57Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so that's why you shouldn't, and why should you?

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  You should because if you do enjoy playing basketball in the park, you're gonna love being a pro baller. So if you enjoy making videos, if you enjoy tech, for example, even though it comes with more pressure, even though it comes with more scrutiny, you're going to enjoy the privilege of being able to share tech with the world, so do it.

• 1:15:18Trevor Noah?

  Marquez, I cannot thank you enough. You have not only kept me entertained for many hours, you've saved me and millions of other people lots of money. Can I just put that out there?

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 1:15:30Trevor Noah?

  Because of you... Not really. I think before you, we only knew something was bad when we bought it. And I think you, my friend, are like a warrior in the war against shitification. Because really, because of you, there's sometimes where I'm like, "Ah, I guess I don't need that device." So yeah, man, I appreciate you. Thanks for taking the time, and I hope we see you again soon.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  For sure, yeah. Always willing to get in the trenches for you.

• 1:15:50Trevor Noah?

  Let's do it.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:15:57Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

• 1:16:37Speaker 04

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• 1:16:52Speaker 04

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