How To Be The Most Healed Guy with Neal Brennan

Trevor and Christiana sit down with Chappelle's Show co-creator and former Daily Show colleague Neal Brennan. The three friends discuss the importance of familial dysfunction to a life of comedy, whether jokes about racism, sexism, transphobia, and the like help or hurt move the human race forward in today’s climate, and the rise and fall of anger as a way of life. Well, of Neal’s life.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

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• 0:42Trevor Noah?

  One plan, one price, just thirty dollars a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Switching to Verizon and shopping their best deals is simple. For new customers, thirty dollars a line includes auto pay and switch discount. Unlimited data is restricted to on-device smartphone usage. Domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. Additional taxes, fees, and terms apply. This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. You know what's really frustrating? Knowing the exact information you need is somewhere on your phone, but still ending up wasting your time digging through five different apps just to actually find it.

• 1:25Trevor Noah?

  Thankfully, Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini intelligence, so it can proactively find the information I need right when I need it. Like my flight info and travel days, or my calendar when Eugene texts me to hang out. Oh, sorry Eugene, I'm booked. Learn more about what Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users eighteen and over, and make sure to check responses. Yeah, booked forever, forever. There are few people I know who have spent more time in comedy than Neil Brennan, like few human beings. And when I say comedy, I mean every level of comedy.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Administration.

• 2:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, really.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Paperwork.

• 2:10Trevor Noah?

  No, really.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Scheduling.

• 2:12Trevor Noah?

  You are that guy. Club comedy, Neil Brennan has been in the trenches of the trenches. So I was gonna ask you about this, but like, I feel like...

• 2:23Trevor Noah?

  There is no comedian who does not have something wrong with them. No, no good comedian.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  I learned that from The Daily Show. I was like, all these people are insane.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  But I was like, these are not normal people.

• 2:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like, and it doesn't matter what it is. It might just, it might be your family. It might be your, the, the, the country you lived in. It might be just a neurodivergent thing that you have in your own head and you grew up in a fine world.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  What's funny is doing my, I do a podcast called Blocks where I have people on and we talk about the, their issues.

• 2:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  And I know that they're not the real issues. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is, these are the issues that you're willing, these are the showcase issues.

• 3:02Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  And I'm like, the real issue.

• 3:04Trevor Noah?

  But do you think they know?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  A couple of days a year, they know. They know. A couple of days a year, they can actually be like, ugh.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  But they don't want to look at it.

• 3:18Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

• 3:30Trevor Noah?

  If you don't know Neil Brennan, you probably don't know comedy, right? Neil Brennan is in many ways like the Forrest Gump of comedy. He has been everywhere. He knows everyone. No comedian who is worth their salt in anything does not have a story about Neil Brennan. I don't care where they're from. I don't care what they're doing. Every, I'm talking about comedians from other countries as well, not just in America. Like, they know Neil Brennan, right? I know some of your story, but I, I don't want to miss it, especially for, for, for the audience. So Neil Brennan is born where?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  In Philadelphia, outside Philadelphia.

• 4:07Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I had like Ireland in my head for some reason.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  It feels like it.

• 4:10Trevor Noah?

  It feels like it.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  It's a Brennan. It's such an Irish name.

• 4:12Trevor Noah?

  It really is.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  I'm an Irish citizen, but I got my.

• 4:15Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you are?

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got my citizenship like recently.

• 4:17Trevor Noah?

  Oh, look at you.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  I don't know what to do with it, but.

• 4:19Trevor Noah?

  Congratulations. No, just, you just do it. Just use it.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, yeah, eat you. I'm gonna move somewhere to eat you. The, uh.

• 4:26Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so you're born in Philadelphia?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Born in Philadelphia.

• 4:28Trevor Noah?

  The last of 10?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Last of 10.

• 4:31Trevor Noah?

  How many boys, how many girls?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Six, total six boys, four girls. And, yeah, and then, I don't know, it was just, you, you, the youngest of 10. It's pretty chaotic. And, uh, it's a lot of kids in a house. It's a bit like an orphanage. And, but no one comes.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Were your parents like?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  No one comes to take.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm curious, like, the age gap between one and 10 and where your parents.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  10 kids in 16 years.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  16 years, but I'm curious about by the time your parents got to you, were they like, oh, fuck it?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  It was pretty new testament. It was just kind of like, ah.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  You'll, it's whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. But I, but still, I was like, I worked a lot. I caddied. I, uh, but I was like drank, smoked, and my mom would just kind of not even.

• 5:18Trevor Noah?

  Well, how old are you when this is happening?

• 5:20Speaker 01

  13.

• 5:21Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  13, 14. I got, uh, underage drinking when I was 16, cops.

• 5:27Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  So you were a troublemaker, kind of?

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'd stop. Once I, I remember the end of high school being like, I don't really need to drink. Like, I've never been that into alcohol. It was just like, I was just doing it. I wouldn't much, I was, I was similar in that, like, I was friends with a lot of friend groups. And pretty funny and like.

• 5:46Trevor Noah?

  What was the, was the family funny? Cause I, I've never known this part of your comedy, like, who was the funny in your family or where did the funny come from?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  My dad liked comedy. I think a lot of what he, his jokes were kind of stolen, um, from like Frank Sinatra and like, where I'd go like, oh, I know that cadence. Where I'd listen to Frank, I'd watch a Frank Sinatra and I'd be like, oh, that's where he got it. His, he was one of 13, so, and it's a lot of boys in that family. He was probably seven boys in his family, so. So it was like a lot of sort of sarcasm and, and then, uh, this is a funny story. At one year of Thanksgiving, I'm in high school. My, one of my brothers said, Kevin, you're not even the funniest one in the family. Neil is. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

• 6:32Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Like, kind of overly competitive for funniest, I guess.

• 6:37Trevor Noah?

  Specifically for funniest?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  I, well, I guess in this case, yeah.

• 6:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Or something. Yeah, there was, it was, but now having said that, my older brothers and sisters were. All so great to me in that they they all had jobs that were interesting that I got access to. My brother Joe was a caddy on the PGA Tour. So I would go to like PGA Tour events and like new Kevin Kevin was comedian. So I got entree into that in high school, knew David Tell, knew Louis, knew like, met Louis when I was in high school, Ray Romano, all these guys. Tommy worked at the Chicago Stadium and Wrigley Field. So I used to go to Cubs games, Bulls games. I I saw a white girl mistake Michael Jordan for somebody else.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  That's how long ago this was. Imagine how long ago this was. A white girl said, hey, are you Orlando Woolridge? And his, I remember Michael Jordan's face falling and be like, no, I'm I'm Michael Jordan. This is so, this is prehistoric time. So I got, I I got a lot of possibilities. And I got to see a lot of possibilities and like a lot of life choices and like paths from the family.

• 7:56Trevor Noah?

  Whenever I think of big families, I, I'm not, I'm I'm torn. You, you know, my family, like brothers are split, right? So I have two younger brothers. One is 10 years younger, one is 20 years younger. So for all intents and purposes, it feels like we were all single kids in a way. But then we all occupy an age position, you know? So I do feel like the eldest because of age.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Has your mom's parenting changed a lot?

• 8:19Trevor Noah?

  So I would say she's changed, but not her parents. So her ability to execute her parenting style has evolved with age. Like I was talking to my youngest brother about this the other day. It's like, I don't think my mom's vibe changed, but when I was young, she could chase me. When my brother was naughty, she couldn't chase him as much as she could chase me. So I think she then had to adapt. But over a long distance, she always got me. She always got me. But I, I always wondered, like, in a big family, like, because I I craved it most of my life. And then I would meet people in mega big families and they would say, oh, I felt forgotten. I felt like. There wasn't enough love to go around. Like, did you feel like that?

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think just it's a resources issue. Now, having said that, the economist Thomas Sowell used to say, there are no solutions, there's only trade offs, which I think is just true about everything. So there's no, there's no one thing like that's better, because then only children, there's like downsides to only children, apparently.

• 9:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  The ego and they don't know how to share, they don't know how to interact or whatever.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  But they're very loved, maybe too loved. I don't, so I don't, I think you could persuade me either way. I think if a kid's loved, that's good. If, if, but I wasn't necessarily like, didn't get the most love from my dad necessarily, specifically. My mom like, wanted to, but like, had to cook or whatever.

• 9:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  So, and she did, but it was just, it's just, you know, she had her hands full. So, so I don't know. I don't know what the, I don't know what the best. What do you, you're, you're doing it. So how do you?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Well, I'm curious, before I answer this, do you and your siblings get on? Are you close?

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Remember that Thanksgiving story?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  That spirit remains.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  So it's openly competitive?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  My dad was competitive with us. So I think that there's like, that's kind of.

• 10:28Trevor Noah?

  So it sounds like succession.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  I was about to like, your dad could be.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  It's white trash succession.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  You said it.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  No, exactly. Yeah, it's, yeah, it is, it's competitive. I, one of my brothers used to keep track of who made the most money.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Best dog.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and then I, and then Chappelle's show happened and he was like, this is stupid.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  So, so, so I don't, you know, I would say it's, it's, it's a mixed bag. I think some are close, some are not. But the good news about 10 kids, you don't have to be close with all of them.

• 11:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's, that's what I mean. It's multiple families in one fam.

• 11:11Trevor Noah?

  Because most of the time, I feel like your siblings sort of not have to be, but you have to be close to them because these are the only people who've shared your existence. But then when there's 10, there's a lot of people who've shared your existence. You can choose within the 10.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  And there's also that generational thing.

• 11:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Of my brother Joe, 16 years older than me. So he wasn't, he said to me recently, he's like, I realize like, we never really knew each other. I was like, yeah. Yeah. How would we have? He moved out when I was four or something, or maybe even.

• 11:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  You know, so it becomes more like an uncle thing.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Also, the thing with siblings is just like, if you weren't siblings, oftentimes you wouldn't be friends. Like, that's just the, like, if you met them in a bar.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, what are the odds?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  What are the odds? But now you're forced to become friends, which is.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  What do you, okay, so tell me what your plan is. And if you're executing it.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  I'm reading this book called Siblings Without Rivalry.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:00Trevor Noah?

  Oh, look at that.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  When I'm done with the book, I'll let, you know, I'm really afraid because I come from, I don't know. And I don't know if it's like African family dynamics. I don't want to be generalized here, but I always remember there were always like fights about land and fights.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  That sounds so parochial.

• 12:18Trevor Noah?

  I was about to say, that sounds like an insult that someone would say.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  I know, it sounds like.

• 12:21Trevor Noah?

  To an African.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I'm just gonna listen.

• 12:24Trevor Noah?

  It sounds like Trump.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  It sounds like Trump, they're like, they're eating cats and dogs, they're fighting over land.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, but like, I've just, conflict was kind of ambient in the extended family. Me and my sisters are figuring it out. We're at very different phases in our lives, but we're a good unit.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  It's underneath that big tree from Black Panther, right?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  That's the one? It's just a feud, am I seeing this feud right?

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Vibranium. They're fighting over Vibranium.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:50Trevor Noah?

  Christiana, there are a few things you need to focus on with your siblings. You know, the weirdest thing for me with Black Panther is like, sometimes when I, when I do the, because they, it's like the accent that they're doing is a South African accent, but they're not a South African accent. So even when, when I do it, I have to like, I have to undo.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  You're, and you were in it and do a different accent, right?

• 13:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I had to like, because I, I wanted to match the general accent. So I didn't want to like come in there with like a weird, like, what is this guy doing?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Trevor Noah?

  And then, so I was like, no, I'll try and like figure out the vibe that everyone's in. And then, and then I'll go from there.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:28Trevor Noah?

  And then, so it's, it's very weird for me. Um, are your, are your parents still alive?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  My mom is, yeah.

• 13:34Trevor Noah?

  Mom is still, how old, how old is she?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Ninety-one.

• 13:36Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Or ninety, ninety, yeah.

• 13:39Trevor Noah?

  What, what was it like for you when your dad passed away? Because you, you know, you, you, you share very openly in your special about how, like, and I think you and I've connected a lot on this. Growing up in a home with a man who's very violent, with his alcohol, with, like, it's a terrifying existence.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:55Trevor Noah?

  And I think you and I, I don't know, we bond around this. I think a lot of our comedy is shaped by this or this feeling. But I, I've always wondered, what did it feel like when your dad passed away?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  It, you know, the interesting thing was like, we'd kind of made peace prior to him dying. The, and then he did the thing with the whale, which is in Three Mikes, um, but.

• 14:17Trevor Noah?

  For, for those who don't know, what, what, what it?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Uh, I, uh, Netflix is a streaming platform. And I have a special on there called Three Mikes. It's one of my three specials, one called Three Mikes, one called Blocks, and one called Crazy Good, which is the newest one, pretty popular. My dad, we never really got along. And then he died and left money as well to everyone but me. Uh, so it was just painful. That part was painful. Um, but we, I, I just don't, I, it's weirdly like, doing Three Mikes got it out of me. Got the pain out of me. It used to weigh down on me. It used to be like a cause of anger.

• 15:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  And now it just, either from doing Three Mikes or something, I just can kind of see the positive. In that, and I actually wrote him a note before he died, love, like, I appreciate the socioeconomic position he put me in. Meaning like, I got to go to NYU, I'm paid for some of it, but like, NYU's not cheap.

• 15:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Um, anything was possible.

• 15:27Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Which I think is a thing that you, is a kind of, as a parent, has got to be one of the main goals. He one time said like, you know, when I was growing up, I, we were told all you had to provide your kid was, uh, food and shelter. And I remember going like, you know, the government can do that. But so I guess it's he's born in nineteen thirty.

• 15:49Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Like, ah, that's a different world. It's just a different and I've gotten more. I don't even know if I've gotten empathetic, but I've certainly gotten less angry as time goes on.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  I'm curious. Um, were you angry because you thought he was trying to spite you? Cause like my instant mind goes to as a parent. He didn't leave you the money because you were the most successful and he's the kid that thought you were gonna be okay. That's like my parent giving him discretion.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  But did you was your anger because you're like, oh, you're trying to spite me?

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it felt like a flick, like a last little flick like, oh, well, you're Mr. Tough Guy or something. Um, but yeah, I it could go either. It's one of those things of like, could be.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  And you haven't have you asked your mom? Have you asked your siblings?

• 16:42Speaker 01

  That basically, yeah, that they they tried to talk him out of it.

• 16:48Trevor Noah?

  Oh, so they knew?

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:50Trevor Noah?

  Did so you didn't know leading up?

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I didn't know.

• 16:52Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  They knew and they tried to talk him out of it. And he was like, nah, nah. And he just and then I've heard from another brother that he did. He was sort of slagging him about like, you're just here for the money.

• 17:07Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Like, it was sort of a real, he went down swinging.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  So to speak, so I don't really know what to make of it other than I'm glad I don't carry it. Cause it's just not, it's not helpful.

• 17:22Trevor Noah?

  We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break.

• 17:27Trevor Noah?

  Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you

• 18:12Trevor Noah?

  based on what you already watch. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heatwaves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows.

• 18:57Trevor Noah?

  You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick, from Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 19:17Trevor Noah?

  Therapy is one of those things lots of people talk themselves out of without even realizing it. Like it's too expensive or it's too overwhelming figuring out even where you're gonna start. But Rula is one way to make that first step feel a lot more doable, offering accessible, affordable therapy that fits your needs. Sign up in just a few minutes and get matched with a therapist who fits what you're looking for. Need to talk to someone quickly? Appointments are often available as soon as the next day. And with insurance, sessions average around a $15 copay. You can also see estimated costs upfront, so there's a lot more clarity going in. And in terms of outcomes, 93% of Rula patients report symptom improvement.

• 20:02Trevor Noah?

  If therapy's been sitting in the back of your mind, Rula is a pretty simple way to take that first step. So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com. That's R U L A dot com to find a therapist the easy way.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  So I'm curious, because you guys are both comedians, I'm not. Is comedy really that cathartic? Because like hearing you say like, I released this thing, I surrendered it. And I can put it behind, is the work that is the work?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  You just say it so much that it's in a weird way, you'll relate.

• 20:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  It's like material you don't believe anymore. It's like you just, Chappelle has an observation that jokes are like tires. That they just, the tread wears out. And if I'm doing a show about my dad, you just, after a while, it's like, I don't know what. So there's partially that, which is just sort of like getting tired of saying something. And I would say it's more from the spiritual stuff of like releasing it. But there was before the spiritual stuff, there was this idea of like, yeah, I don't know, I think I just sort of like talked it out. Have you, you talk less personally than I do. But, but your earlier shows were a little more personal.

• 21:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, actually, so I used to speak more personally. And then I realized.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Won't make that mistake again.

• 21:26Trevor Noah?

  No, I think there was a, there's a, there's a sort of a weird idea I adopted in and around Taking Over the Daily Show and it was like, don't make it about you. Do you know what I mean? It was like, okay, it's about the show, it's about the work, it's about the, you know, and, and now on the other side of it, now I'm going back into more personal material. Now I'm going back into, um, but it's funny, I, I, I never thought, I never thought it was cathartic.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  So even, even in your early work, when you're sharing about like your experience being mixed race?

• 21:53Trevor Noah?

  No, I'll be honest, I don't, I don't think, and I don't think it's cathartic for most comedians, if I'm honest. I think what happens a lot of the time is comedians have found like a.

• 22:05Trevor Noah?

  It's almost like a, it's like a shield that you, that you can put in front of you

• 22:11Trevor Noah?

  to seem like you are dealing with the thing, but you are not dealing with the thing. And you, and you're speaking about it to people. So people are like, oh, wow, you're speaking about it. So you must be over it, or you must be. But I, I don't think it's cathartic. The reason I, I don't think it's cathartic is because comedians get to do the thing with the audience. So that is, we escape with the laugh. Do you know what I mean?

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:31Trevor Noah?

  And so I think real catharsis requires you to stay in something until it is released. As opposed to finding a way to escape, you know, and so.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Is it avoidance then?

• 22:41Trevor Noah?

  No, it's not avoidance.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Too psychological, like.

• 22:43Trevor Noah?

  No, no, look, it's not, it's not avoidance. I think, and I was thinking about this before this conversation. I, I was gonna ask you, this, this generation of comedians is the first, I, I remember the shift. I don't know if you remember, there was a point in comedy where we saw almost every few months, a comedian committing suicide somewhere. You would just hear, you'd walk into a comedy club.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  The good old days.

• 23:07Trevor Noah?

  Everyone would be around, everyone would be around a table in the club. And there'd just be like a sad feeling and you'd be like, hey, what's going on? And be like, oh, did you hear about Bobby? Did you hear about blah, blah, blah? Maybe like, what happened? They're like, oh yeah, no, they found him in a hotel room in Pennsylvania. They found him in a hotel room in Ohio, somewhere. They found him in a hotel room. And this was constant. It was just, it was, and it was almost, it was almost expected in many ways. And then I don't know what happened, but suddenly something shifted. All of a sudden comedians wouldn't be ordering the chicken wings backstage. They were ordering the, the celery and the kale and the baby carrots and the hummus.

• 23:48Trevor Noah?

  And then they, they wouldn't be ordering a drink, like, like a cocktail or whiskey. They'd be ordering water, you know, then like you'd know, and then comedians would be like, oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta leave now. I'm, I'm working out in the morning. I'm.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  I mean, I, we're, in a way, it's a contradiction in that, that people are getting, I think culture in general is getting more. Like self-care.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Wellness.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah. I now, the thing I wanted to talk to you about was I had something I want to talk to you about, which is the, what I call wisdom theater or wellness theater, performative wellness, performative wisdom, meaning we talked about a mutual friend of ours who wanted to be the most healed guy.

• 24:32Trevor Noah?

  Oh, Jesus, yeah, this is killing me.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Where people, people go on podcasts, they host podcasts, they, they, no offense.

• 24:43Trevor Noah?

  No offense to all of us, including yourself.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Everyone, company included.

• 24:46Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Where it becomes about performing wisdom, performing self-care.

• 24:54Trevor Noah?

  Performing altruism, performing, yeah.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Performing and all, and it's like, this isn't it either. Do you think it's even helpful to have all of this like, I meditated this morning and just all that stuff? Cause I believe it's all for in service of being better at capitalism.

• 25:12Trevor Noah?

  I always say, you know, the easiest way to see it, well, tell my friends is when you look at a post, let's say online, as soon as somebody says, here's how I did it, or, you know, this is how I became more productive. I'm like, no, that's not the point. Like meditating is not about becoming more productive.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Buddha was all about rising and grinding. If you know the story at all, it's all about.

• 25:36Trevor Noah?

  I don't know, I just think we're in the age of it right now and I accept it, you know? And I'll be honest, I, I, I am, I, I, I don't, I don't mind the fact that the trend right now is to be healthy.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:48Trevor Noah?

  Cause that's a fine trend.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  If you're gonna, if you have to pick trends.

• 25:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  I love wellness.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  It's the best, workaholism being the best of the.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  You, you don't even want to.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Best of, I'm vegan, so I don't want to talk, don't even talk to me.

• 26:01Trevor Noah?

  There was a time in comedy where one thing comedians all shared was comedy. Right? It didn't matter like who you were, where you were from, what you did, black, white, old, young, woman, man. It really didn't matter, it didn't matter. We, we had this thing where we would go into a comedy club and it was like comedy time. And we all just had comedy. And then I I noticed over the past few years. And it's funny, I'm less worried about it for comedy and I'm more worried about what it means for society is. I've noticed a creep of polarization even in comedy. Like comedy used to be everyone does everything and they're comedians. And someone will get on stage and say the craziest joke that is whatever, you know, it can be anything misogynistic racist.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:46Trevor Noah?

  You name it, but it's within the confines of comedy, like they're using the tools to make a joke about it.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:52Trevor Noah?

  And then now comedy slowly becoming like, oh, well, those people, that's their politics. We don't do comedy with them and these people, we don't do comedy with them. Like, do you think politics is gonna end comedy as we know it?

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Um, I, it is, well, it's called, it's the world. Like, I've known Joe Rogan thirty plus years. And I didn't know his politics until nine years ago.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  And it's not because they were, they, he didn't have any, it's just because you didn't know. You literally didn't know what somebody's politics were.

• 27:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Until, I am gonna say two thousand eight, the internet, social media. And then, once social media started, then it became like Twitter and dunking on people. And you see so and so's tweet and that's, that's, I'm triggered and that's inappropriate and that's, they're gonna pay. And now I have to like mute them or I have to not like. I've actually thought, can I like this tweet? Cause there's gonna be some sort of.

• 27:57Trevor Noah?

  There's people who will see that you liked it.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And then we're all part of so many different groups that we've always been, but it just kinda didn't, they weren't. You didn't wear them all, all the time.

• 28:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Now it's almost like the, there was a Daily Show joke, I think, where they had the like, the, the Formula One or the NASCAR sponsorships.

• 28:15Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, but it was all the badges of.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  All the badges of like people that had donated. That's where all these things now, and we used to just not be.

• 28:23Trevor Noah?

  I was thinking this back when, um, when Elon Musk had the, the rocket come back down to earth. I remember watching that.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  I texted him. I was so excited.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Known him 29 years.

• 28:39Trevor Noah?

  You're clearly a verified user. The, um, yeah, I, I watched, I watched the rocket come down. First I thought it was a fake video because it's so amazing.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is, unreal.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Did you watch the longer one?

• 28:49Trevor Noah?

  Like, yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's the one I'm talking about.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Wait, this is gonna land?

• 28:53Trevor Noah?

  So I thought it was going, I thought someone had reversed the video. Because I was like, this makes no sense.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:59Trevor Noah?

  I was like, physics, what is happening here? And I'm watching all of this and then I, I, I texted all my friends, especially like friends who love tech and everything. I was like, this is the most amazing thing. Have you seen this? And I was like, have you? And people were like, screw that guy.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  I know. Whereas you were going like, maybe the fascism's worth it.

• 29:18Trevor Noah?

  That's not what I was saying. That's not what I was saying. And I've now learned on the podcast, I have to now be very clear. That's not what I was, no.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  This is not, this is not represent me.

• 29:28Trevor Noah?

  The, uh, no, I, and, and even in my group of friends, I didn't understand, and I still don't understand.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:36Trevor Noah?

  Why people feel the need to tell me how they feel about a thing that I know they feel about. But I'm like, I'm your friend. If I send you a video of an Elon Musk rocket being caught in, from space.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:49Trevor Noah?

  And I go, this is amazing. Don't say to me, Elon Musk sucks.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:54Trevor Noah?

  I know how you feel.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're afraid in that thing of like, if I like this tweet, am I gonna get in trouble?

• 29:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but this is in our own messages.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  But.

• 30:02Trevor Noah?

  We're friends.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Right, but it's infected that as well.

• 30:07Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man, that's terrifying to me.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  It really has. I think.

• 30:09Trevor Noah?

  That is terrifying to me.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  It's once, once people start releasing texts in court cases, in, in doxing, any of these, that's like the, ah, this is bad.

• 30:21Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  This is bad.

• 30:23Trevor Noah?

  No. I, okay, I'm, I'm gonna go on the record and say, I will never judge anybody for texts that get released unless those texts indict them about something they've done in public. Because of the con, it's like a comedy club, it's, it goes back to the same rule. If we're in a comedy club, we know that the people in here are trying to say things that elicit a laugh from the audience. So a comedian will make a joke about anything. They'll make a joke about murder, they'll make a joke about genocides, they'll make a joke about rape, they'll make a joke.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  I heard a comedian make a joke, uh, referring to a bunch of suicides as the good old days.

• 30:59Trevor Noah?

  That was, that was on this podcast. That was on one of the episodes.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  What?

• 31:03Trevor Noah?

  Go back through the episodes and you'll find it. But, but, but that's what I mean is like, there's the context. And, and we, when we maintain that context.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:11Trevor Noah?

  People know, oh yeah, you can send something to your friend or your family member. That is egregious. It can be the most horrible thing towards them or towards somebody else. But because of the context, they know that you're joking. They know that, do you get what I'm saying?

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:25Trevor Noah?

  And I, I actually worry about that world. I don't want to live in a world where we now have to sort of like.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Thought police.

• 31:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we have to now go like, I've never had that thought. I do not think anything that is bad could be funny. I do not think.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Never say in private what you won't stand behind in public.

• 31:44Trevor Noah?

  No, but it's a joke. I wouldn't say many things.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  But as you know, I say crazy stuff in private.

• 31:48Trevor Noah?

  You do, you do actually.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  But it's freedom. Then there's no difference between private and public.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, obviously there are private acts. There's things that you do in private that you will never do in public. But just be who you are. I think it's easier.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Have you ever been on a group chat? Or even a one to one chat where someone's texted something? And you've been like, boy, that's hot.

• 32:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I mean, that's what texts are for.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Every group chat with me.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  But have you ever gone, do I give it a ha ha? Do I give it a thumbs up? Do I, what do I give this? And if it ever goes public? I, I've truly had that thought.

• 32:25Trevor Noah?

  So I, I think that society, you know, it's not to delve too deep into the world of like the shadow self and all of these things, but we, we need to accept that as human beings, the paradox of the brain is that it is thinking about what it should not think about, even when we're telling it to think about something.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  It's mostly an intrusive thought.

• 32:46Trevor Noah?

  Exactly. Everything.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Ninety percent intrusive.

• 32:49Trevor Noah?

  When I'm on the freeway, most of the time I'm thinking, crash that, crash that.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Run over him.

• 32:53Trevor Noah?

  Run over there, run over there, crash that, crash. I'm not doing it though, but my brain is going, what would happen? What would happen? What would happen? What, you know, you know what I mean? So I actually personally as Trevor, I go, I judge people based on their actions, not on their thoughts. Because I go, that is in my opinion, what makes you a good person is that. You act in a way that is is good for other people or for yourself. And you don't follow all the thoughts that are in fact, if you follow all the thoughts, I think they would put you in an asylum. They would say that you are, you listen to the voices in your head.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  You'd just be in jail.

• 33:21Trevor Noah?

  I exactly.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  I personally just feel suspicious of people who are like nice about people all the time. I just like that person is.

• 33:29Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that I mean, that is true.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  No, because I think that's the world.

• 33:31Trevor Noah?

  No, them with you.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  But that's the world we're in right now. Like.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  If you say anything about anyone, public or private, it has to be a nice or kind thing. Because I just think it's it's not the human experience sometime like because I'm like, oh, I don't like them. And people are like, why? I'm just like, it's just a feeling. They've done nothing. I just like, that's a real thing to have like this visceral reaction to someone. But I think the way our politics are in the world, the way the world is going. It's just that people think that they have to play nice all the time.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  It's just getting more and more. It's just the the the uh it's creeping.

• 34:03Trevor Noah?

  Do you think it's hurt comedy as a whole?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:06Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  I don't. I mean, I don't. There's no comedy. First of all, it's never been more popular. It's never been more lucrative. So this idea that comedy is being hurt or cancel culture, any of that stuff, it's like everyone I know that. I want to do a joke like, yeah, you got to be careful as a comedian because, you know, you could say something and then somebody will clip it. And the next thing you know, you'll be doing arenas.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  It's everyone I know that gets canceled. You get canceled up. It's like a it's like a it's the crucible. It's like, how are you going to respond to this?

• 34:37Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And then that's how people judge you. And if you if you cower and genuflect and or if you ignore it, or if you double down, or there's like ways to do it. But it makes the audience trust you more, I think.

• 34:52Trevor Noah?

  Yes. I remember um I bumped into Shane Gillis and um.

• 34:59Trevor Noah?

  And I remember chatting to him and I was like, and I genuinely mean this, I was like, I, I'm so proud of Shane Gillis as a human being and as a comedian. Because he got fired off of SNL. People discarded him, they're like, he's out. Then he amassed a huge amount of fans who were like, yeah, bring more.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  He's a prime case.

• 35:19Trevor Noah?

  They were like, bring more races, bring more. They were like, do, do the thing that. And I'll never forget, his first shows that he booked, I think it was at The Stand, actually, in New York. Shane comes out and he basically addresses the fact that people have come there to see racist jokes. And he's like, that's not what I do.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Say noodle, like a Chinese person.

• 35:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and, and he, and he didn't, and then he, he subverted the whole thing and he joked about it and then he, and even now, like, I go genuinely, Shane Gillis is one of the people where, and I don't think anyone, quote unquote, let's say, has an excuse, but he would have had an excuse to be an asshole. Shane was like, no, he's like, hey, man, I made some jokes, you didn't like them. I'm still gonna make jokes. And genuinely now, I think he's one of the best comedians working in the world. And when you watch his comedy, I don't care what you are, by the way, conservative, liberal, whatever you think you are, Shane Gillis is funny. But I also think it's amazing to see somebody who was able to withstand the, the, like, the, you know, the, the horde that supports the worst instincts.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:15Trevor Noah?

  You know, because someone, one person can go, Neil, how could you say that? You get canceled. And then what happens is there's a crowd that comes in to like, claim you. And they're like, yes, Neil, yes, join us, all the things, yes, and, and you know how we feel about those people. And you're like, man, I just made a joke that some people didn't like. And they're like, no, but Neil, do only those jokes.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:35Trevor Noah?

  And Shane, I don't know, like, how he did it as a human, because that must have been really hard.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  I think he shrugged it off. He just seemed to kind of go like, I don't know.

• 36:43Trevor Noah?

  I don't know how, though.

• 36:49Trevor Noah?

  This next segment, Core Memories, is brought to you by Starbucks. The holidays aren't just about grand gestures, but the little moments that bring warmth, connection, and joy to the season. I remember the first time I experienced a winter Christmas in America. It felt like I was stepping into a movie. Because you see, back home in South Africa, Christmas is all about summer, right? It's barbecues, cold drinks, and running around outside in the sun. That's how I grew up. But here I was, sitting by the window, watching snowflakes fall. Something I'd only ever seen on TV before. Everything felt so still, like the world outside had been wrapped in a thick, cozy blanket.

• 37:33Trevor Noah?

  Inside, it was warm, almost too warm, to be honest. The heat was on, and there was a smell of cinnamon in the air, which, by the way, Americans love. I couldn't help but laugh at myself. I was bundled in three layers of clothing, even though everyone else seemed perfectly comfortable in their one sweater. A very ugly sweater. We spent the evening indoors, playing board games, where people were fighting over sheep. I still don't understand what that game was about. But what struck me was the coziness of it all. Everyone gathered together, and the sound of laughter filled the room. It was such a contrast to the Christmases I had grown up with, where everything was loud and outdoors, and this was slower, and it was more intimate.

• 38:16Trevor Noah?

  And honestly, I loved it just as much. There's something magical about being stuck inside because of the cold, surrounded by people you care about, while the rest of the world feels like it's standing still. That was the moment I realized Christmases aren't really about the weather or the food. It's all about who you spend it with. There's no denying, moments like these are so much more magical when they're paired with the comforting flavors of the holiday season. Create core memories this holiday season. Order your favorite holiday beverage on the Starbucks app today.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  You get in trouble from time to time, and I don't say that jokingly, but I'm saying, how do you, how do you, how do you, what's your philosophy?

• 39:01Trevor Noah?

  So it's funny, Christiana and I were talking about this. We were literally talking about this. So like after the Tanahasi episode on the podcast, right? I had, you, you name it. I had people phoning me, everybody from everywhere. You, you know, so every, like, you run the spectrum from friends, friends, close friends, going like, Trevor, like, how could you have that man on? And that is extremist and it's anti-Semitic and, and this is trash. And why would you even sit there and listen to him? And all the way through to strangers, just being like, this is why you should be dead. I wish apartheid had killed you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  So you got my message.

• 39:37Trevor Noah?

  And the two of you know me in those moments more than most people, right? And the first thing I do is listen, because I go like, all right, tell me everything. Just tell me everything, you know? And so like a friend of mine would just be like, oh, he's like, you know, I, I can't believe you, why didn't you ask Tanahasi this? And why didn't you ask him that? And, and I responded and I said, I was like, hey, the same way if somebody's coming to talk about like their documentary about something that happened in Israel, I'm not going to push them on everything about what's happening in Gaza, because this is the part of the story that we're here to talk about. And it was, it was interesting, like, when I have those conversations, I just listen to what the person is saying, what they're feeling, and then I try and understand where we are missing each other, you know?

• 40:20Trevor Noah?

  So the one note, for instance, I said to a friend, one of my friends, he was, he was like, I hated the fact that you, you, you talked about Jewish people and then you talked about Israel and you talked about Jewish people, but then you conflated the two. And I was like, oh, yeah, actually, you're right.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's what I'm curious about, how much, because I, I find that, how, how much does your, uh, listening affect your judgment?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Can I say something?

• 40:43Speaker 01

  How big does, how big is the, how much growth is there? Go ahead.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Because to me, I, I always see Trevor as very like unflappable. Maybe that's like the Swiss German, like the veneer of, of like, no, he seems unflappable. So I was like, because it was like, the backlash was a bit weird. So I hit him up, but I think Trevor just heals quickly and better. I call him Wolverine. Like he like heals very quickly and better.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Because he takes a ton of steroids?

• 41:11Speaker 02

  No, maybe, I don't know. It's, it's the shrooms, I think. But no, like, I think he does feel it. That's what I'm concerned.

• 41:17Trevor Noah?

  No, I feel all of it.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  He feels, he feels everything. He's such a Pisces.

• 41:20Trevor Noah?

  I feel all of it.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  What do you do?

• 41:23Speaker 02

  He's very sensitive.

• 41:24Trevor Noah?

  No, I am very sensitive and I feel all of it.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  I wouldn't have, no, I'm like, but you don't.

• 41:28Trevor Noah?

  No, so, okay.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  You don't see it.

• 41:30Trevor Noah?

  So there's a few things that have, you asked me this question and I, I realized there's a few things that have helped me understand this. And, and it's funny because I, I think Neil, you'll have something similar but different because of your upbringing. So, first of all, I grew up in a house and in a country where there was a lot of violence, right? And so when I was a child watching this, I never once looked at it and went, yeah, this is, this is right. I even talk to my mom now and I go, why would you get so angry when you were hitting me? And she's like, because you wouldn't listen. I'm like, yeah, but why did you get angry though? I was like, you know, you could have just like done it as like a, all right, kid, here comes your punishment. And then she would say, she's like, I was so frustrated. And I was like, I was like, I know I, you know, cut something open. I know I dismantled the TV. I know I burnt down a room.

• 42:15Trevor Noah?

  I know whatever I did. But even me as a child, I would go, huh, that was not ideal. But I'm not going to lose my cool over this. And then I'd get my beating and then I, I would cry and I'd feel it. I'd feel everything. But the thing that would stick with me is how it didn't make sense for people to lose their cool. And I, you know, I, I talked to my friends about it and we have these big fights, but I go, every one of our parents, especially African parents, but I mean, I know, you know how Neil grew up? Yo, parents were beating kids and this was like a normal thing. And now we joke about it. You'd be like, oh, you pray there's no shoe around and you pray like Eddie Murphy had those jokes and, and we all laughed about it. But I think I grew up watching this going, huh, this is not, it doesn't seem to be ideal. And it doesn't seem to get where I'm going.

• 42:59Trevor Noah?

  So maybe what I did a little too much was I internalized it. So I keep it in me. But then what I do is I, and that's where ADHD helps. I'm having six conversations now at the same time. So you're speaking to me and I'm listening to what you're saying. And then I'm sort of going to like one tree, which is like, okay, how do I agree with you? How do I disagree with you? What's happening here? What's not happening here? Do I connect with you? Do I not connect with you? Can I see your humanity? And I always go, if I see you as a person, which I do with most human beings on this earth, genuinely. I go like, I'll still find something to connect with you on. And so on the other side of it, when you ask me like, how much does it change me? I genuinely listen. So a person almost only has to tell me once. And I will keep that because it means something.

• 43:42Trevor Noah?

  So when my friend said to me, my friend who's Jewish and spent time in Israel said, I didn't like that you said Jewish and Israel, but you conflated the two. And I was like, ah, okay. I will never do that again. But then when it comes to like arguing about whether or not it's an apartheid state. I said, you are my friend and I love you, but we're not going to agree on this. And I don't think we need to agree on this to remain friends. In fact, as my friend, I hope that you'll still keep me in your life and I will work to keep you in my life. But I don't want to lose you because of this thing. Because there are so many things that we're going to disagree on. This is just one of the biggest ones, you know? And, and I don't know, you know, you know, whether it's just this moment in time or social media. I don't know what it is.

• 44:25Trevor Noah?

  But I feel like people are, like people have less and less ability now to maintain friendships or to maintain connections that also hold a, a space of disagreement or conflict.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  It's the same thing. It's that thing about if I like, if I write ha ha to this text, you're, you have this constituency in your head or imagined or whatever, that I can't say disagree on this, but love you the same. Cause then you'll lose your constituency.

• 44:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. And you see for me that, that I don't think that's. I don't think that moves us forward. Because I've always believed that people don't change by hanging out with people who are like them.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 45:11Trevor Noah?

  I think we change by rubbing on each other, just rubbing off on each other. And, and I think the common humanity, that's why I come back to stand up. I think of the comedians I used to meet in comedy clubs and I still till this day. I mean, everything racist, misogynistic, whatever you want to call it. But they, but they're also human beings, you know what I mean? And I'm not excusing any of the things they did. The same way I'm sure someone wouldn't excuse some of the things I did or said or as a person. You all have your faults. But I would, the one thing that would connect us first and foremost is that we were comedians. You, you remember we'd even say as comedians, you'd be like, man, have you seen that guy's new bit? You'd be like, it is the most racist bit you've ever seen, but God, it's funny.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:54Trevor Noah?

  And holding that paradox, holding that cognitive dissonance, I think was key to us. And I, you would see, not all, but you would see a lot of the comedians evolve over time. Because society would evolve and you would shift and you'd, and you'd find a lot of the comedians who were doing the jokes they were doing back in the day, wouldn't do them anymore and they would evolve slowly.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  My objection to this primarily is like, it's fine when it's all like theoretical. We're working on jokes, that person's a bit racist, that person's a bit misogynistic. But we're living in a time where womenly, women currently can't get abortions in many ways.

• 46:28Trevor Noah?

  Completely with them.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  So there's like real world implications, whether it's sexism, racism, transphobia. So I think it's, it's difficult because these people in our lives that have unsavory views, it feels like they're winning. I feel like the world is shifting to the right. I feel like the world is a scarier place and that's like just true. Like you look at elections, you look at all of this stuff. And so it's like, it's harder for people to be like, well, I can, I can see you as a whole human being when your vote is the reason that like I was terrified to do IVF in Texas. Cause I was like, well, I'm a woman with a history of loss. And if I need to get a DNC, will I be able to get one? Will a doctor give me one, right? So there's like real world implications for like these controversial, right wing,

• 47:14Speaker 02

  or even like super far left ideas. And some people are like, I actually don't want to be around that in my personal life. And I don't blame them. Do you, do you know what I mean?

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Of course. And that's I, in, the two thoughts I had is it's a bit like being friends with people, two people who don't get along. And you're like, ah, I was just with, you have lunch with somebody.

• 47:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  And then you're like, yeah, and you're like, am I a piece of garbage? Both of these people have been good to me.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  And then the other thing I, the other thought I had was, does do jokes lead to action? If you make a joke, does that mean you stand with?

• 47:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  That.

• 47:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  And I be, and that, that's where comedy comes in, because it's like, do I? I don't know, I can make a joke about anything. I don't stand with it, it just, my brain made.

• 48:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Did that construction and I was like, this might be fun.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  But if a comedian does their job properly and the joke is good enough, you won't get in trouble.

• 48:15Trevor Noah?

  So I, I used to think that, but then I realized we've robbed the world of context. You know, and, and on one of the previous, one of our previous episodes here, um, when Yuval Noah was here, right? Talk, uh, the author of Sapiens and the Nexus. He said something that really stuck with me and it was, we are living in an age where we have more information than we've ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had in our lives. We have access to more information, but we don't have enough time to process it. And I think the problem with like comedy now, let's say, or jokes even, is there's no context anymore.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:49Trevor Noah?

  You know, then even when Twitter began, the first people who followed comedians on Twitter and people all agree that this was a place where people are making jokes. They are not real things, right? And then the context spread, the algorithm moved things around. Now you're sitting at home, minding your own business, you're a super religious person and then some video will come on your feed where someone's trashing religion, making jokes about it and you're like, you get angry, but there's no context. You didn't want to see that.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:19Trevor Noah?

  You didn't ask to see, and that's, I think that's like one of my key issues with social media is the fact that people are not asking to see, they're not opting in in any way. You know, I feel like it should be like an opt in as opposed to an opt out. But people are seeing videos that they don't want to see. Videos that are like actively making them angry, or sad, or more afraid, etc. And I think that's actually hurting comedy and hurting the idea of comedy as opposed to it being or not being. Does that make sense?

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I also think that there's some things that people should be shamed. Listen, I like shame. I'm not like Bruno Brown.

• 49:50Trevor Noah?

  You do love shame.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  I like shame. I'm windowing.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Do you know what? And I'm just like.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  It's one of my kinks.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  Whether you're a comedian, whoever you are, I don't kink shame. You know, I'm proud of you.

• 49:58Trevor Noah?

  So the one place he doesn't shame is kink. Okay.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  I know, no.

• 50:01Trevor Noah?

  Shame, but no kink.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  But I'm just like, there's some things that if you.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Either way, I have an erection. Go ahead.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  No, I'm just like, there's some things, if you say them, they could be consequence. Like, I know every time I say something, I'm just something I'm trying to teach my kids, something if I've had to learn the hard ways. Like, you say stuff, sometimes people get offended, and there's gonna be a backlash.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  So you're correct in that civil rights are a little wobbly in certain respects, right? And, but there's also people, there's, there's a huge incentive to grievance. There's an incentive, the incentive to being in a conversation used to be, somebody make a joke, you'd laugh. The incentive was to like be agreeable and be open minded.

• 50:45Trevor Noah?

  To join, yeah, in some way.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  And now the incentive is to take offense and to be like, ah, this is a chance for me to get all my picket signs out.

• 50:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  And represent for my, my invisible constituents.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  I agree, but I think we're also, in a time for a lot of people where they feel there's a lot to be aggrieved about.

• 51:01Trevor Noah?

  I agree.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  So we just have to acknowledge that, like, people are constantly offended, because the world is very offensive.

• 51:07Trevor Noah?

  The issue I have with it is that, is the getting offended. It, it, it is you on the other side of getting offended. And I, I, okay, I, I say this from the, let's take comedy out of it for a moment. I think of language.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:20Trevor Noah?

  So I speak many languages, as you know, Neil Brennan, and. One of the things I love about speaking multiple languages is the fact that you learn how offensive the same thing is in another culture, in another language. Sure. You, you didn't change anything. You moved your hand in a different way. You did a thumbs up in one country and they're like, what did you say about my father? And you're like, wait, what? You, you put your hand under your chin in one country and they're like, what are you saying about my family? But Trevor, don't you adjust? No, no, no, listen. You adjust in different contexts, right? But that's because I've moved to places, right? We are no longer moving. So we now live in a world. So there's nine different languages. That's what I mean. So we're no longer moving. Before it made sense, I go to Dubai. When I'm in Dubai, I acknowledge I'm in the United Arab Emirates. I will respect the

• 52:05Trevor Noah?

  cultures and the laws accordingly. When I go to South Africa, I know my people. I will respect my people and I will work accordingly. I do this everywhere in the world, but now I'm not going anywhere. You're not going anywhere. You're not going anywhere. You're at home tweeting your friend, TikToking your people. You, you're not going anywhere. And then it takes you where the people don't agree with you, but you didn't go there. That's what I'm trying to say. And so the problem with offense is that everything is offensive to everyone if there is no context. So you can literally say something, you could say to your own grandparents, you'd be like, how old are you granny? And they'd be like, 93. They're like, whoop, it's almost time. And your grandparent laughs, ha, ha, ha. Yeah.

• 52:46Trevor Noah?

  You take that video, you put it on your, your own social media page for you and your few fans and your people. You might have 20 followers. For some reason, it sparks something. All of a sudden, there's a delusion of people coming to you saying, how dare you? Do you know what ageism does to our culture? Elder abuse. You're discarding. I don't care that they laugh. They probably laugh because they're scared of you. And you, and you're like, no, this is my grandparent. They taught me this humor. I'm laughing with them. For instance, I've seen comedians, and you've seen this, I've seen comedians who have disabilities, deaf, um, blind, uh, they have MS, cerebral palsy, whatever it is. They make a joke online. People don't know that they have that disability. And they just come after them. How could you? How dare you, piece of trash you? And then their fans come in and go like, excuse me, they have the disability.

• 53:32Trevor Noah?

  And the people are like, oh, I didn't know. Oh, I'm so, oh, well, that's so funny. And I'm like, what just changed?

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:38Trevor Noah?

  Nothing has changed. Your context and the way you saw the thing changed. And so I do agree with you. Yes, words have consequences, yes. But I think we should never take for granted our participation in some of these ideas where we are choosing to get angry on some of it. We are choosing to take it like and make it like, ah. Personally, I do this in my life with my friends, with my people. I encourage people to just, it's almost like filtering. Focus on the things that you should actually be angry about.

• 54:10Trevor Noah?

  Because there's a lot of things that actually it's like, oh, you just, you just misinterpreted it. It's, it's, you, you really just misinterpreted it. It's a different perspective, different language, different culture, different vibe, different story. And it actually doesn't spoil your life. We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight.

• 54:55Trevor Noah?

  That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no. YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So. If you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium.

• 55:40Trevor Noah?

  Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows. You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick. From Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 56:17Speaker 03

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• 56:53Trevor Noah?

  I don't know what the solution to this is. But I still go back to my belief that the solution doesn't lie in people siloing themselves. I, I believe as Trevor, this person has no incentive and will never even shift a little bit if I'm not in their life. And I will never see their perspective if I'm not in their life.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Trevor, you have that kumbaya Mandela stuff.

• 57:15Trevor Noah?

  But it's not kumbaya for me.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  You do, you do. No, but it's something, listen. Jive, Turkey. No, no, I'm saying, okay. Trevor hired me because I was on Twitter talking shit about The Daily Show. That's how we met. That's the type of person, no.

• 57:31Trevor Noah?

  That's not why. You see, the why was wrong.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Wait, no, but you came across my tweets. You were like, oh, this person really disagrees with what I'm doing on The Daily Show. He found me interesting, my mind.

• 57:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but that's the why.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  But I'm complimenting you. He's the type of guy that be like, see those tweets, you know, you know, I'm gonna hire that bitch. That is Trevor, like, he just is.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  That's a direct quote.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  It's a direct quote. But it's like, even the way he has his writers room.

• 57:53Trevor Noah?

  And look at where we are now.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  No.

• 57:55Trevor Noah?

  You, you were part of helping me win an Emmy, you were part of helping make the show the best thing it's ever been.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  I'm like, I don't know how you hold that. It's something I really admire as someone who can be very tribal. Actually, politically, my friends are all over the map.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Have you changed in any way? That's what I'm curious about.

• 58:10Trevor Noah?

  She definitely has.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Because I've changed my opinion about lots of stuff.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  I have changed, no.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  And it's like, do I, do I completely disregard that version of myself?

• 58:19Trevor Noah?

  So can I just say something about both of you real quick? As your friend, both of you, I've seen both of you change because of me, and both of you have changed me because of you, because you're in my life. So, Christiana, I've watched you become funnier and looser as a person in the time that I've known you. Like, I've literally watched you. When, so, I, I, I, I like what you said, but like, with the Twitter thing, yes, you were trash-talking me and trash-talking The Daily Show and everything. But more importantly, I saw somebody who was super smart, really, like, the way you saw the world and the way you, like, understood ideas and what you brought in and your journalistic brain. I was like, damn, this is amazing. I didn't, I wasn't hiring people on Twitter who were just like, Trevor Noah, you suck. Go back to your country. I wasn't like, yeah, this person needs to come to The Daily Show.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:02Trevor Noah?

  It's not about that. I'm able to look.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  They already work there. Go ahead.

• 59:08Trevor Noah?

  I'm able to look at the thing that lies beneath how you respond to me.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  No, I admire it.

• 59:15Trevor Noah?

  And so like, so when I look at the two of you, you've become funnier, like, more chill, more everything. Right, Neil, let me tell you something. When I met Neil Brennan, so I'll, I'll take you on a little journey. When I met Neil Brennan for the very first time, I was on Twitter, and this was the good old days of Twitter where people were just making jokes. There was nothing serious on it. It was just jokes.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Before Christina came in on Friday.

• 59:36Trevor Noah?

  And it was just jokes and I remember Neil had really funny jokes on Twitter and I was like, this guy's funny and I followed him and then it said co-creator of Chappelle Show and I was like, wait, what? And I went in and I didn't, I hadn't even like watched the Chappelle Show in that way. I never had cable. I couldn't afford it, all these things, sob story, whatever.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  You know, copper roof.

• 59:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you know how it is, you know how it is, whatever.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Born to crime.

• 59:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, tough, tough life, let's keep it moving. But I then went and I watched the show and then I saw the first sketch, the um, black white supremacist. And then you're in the back there and you're like, your head explodes and. But then I like started researching, I was like, damn, this guy's funny and he's, he's just been in everything that I love. So I follow him on Twitter and now I just love his jokes. And then I, I come to America for the first time doing like random shows and I meet him at the Comedy Store in Los Angeles. And I'm walking through the corridors there, very dark, very like sad.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Satanic energy.

• 1:00:32Trevor Noah?

  It really is and, and I walked in and I saw his face and I was like, wait a minute, it's like Neil Brennan. And he, I was like, I know you. He's like, doesn't everyone?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  What, are you from another country?

• 1:00:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it was very like, it was very like, I was like, wow. And, and I was like, what? And I was like, I was like, yeah, hey, nice to meet you. I was like, I love you, I follow you on Twitter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Neil was like, very dismissive. Neil was like, ah, okay, whatever, man. And, and like just very like, you know, leaning against the wall, like, like it's almost like a scene from Grease, but without the leather jacket. It's just like leaning on the wall and it's like, whatever kid, keep it moving. And I walk, I walked in, I went to do my sets or something and then when I was walking out, Neil goes like, hey, wait a minute. Where are you from?

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Get back here.

• 1:01:18Trevor Noah?

  He's like, where are you from? And I was like, I'm from South Africa. And he's like, are you the guy? He's like, you followed me. I was like, yeah, I follow you. He's like, you're the reason I've got people, what did you say? You said, you're the reason I've got people with exclamation marks in their names following me. That's what Neil said. Neil was like, one day.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Apostrophes.

• 1:01:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you said like, one day I was on my Twitter.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Clicks.

• 1:01:38Trevor Noah?

  And it was just like Brad and Jenny following me. And then the next day it was like.

• 1:01:45Trevor Noah?

  And I was like, yeah.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Terrifying.

• 1:01:47Trevor Noah?

  And I was like, that's my friend Colista probably. I told him about your tweets. And, and that's how we meet. Neil was like, and you, I hope you don't mind me saying, but like Neil was, I mean, you were grumpy, you were just like, the world is like, everything is bad.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:02Trevor Noah?

  Energetically dark, always just like, everything is shit. And God, what are you, no religion and just like, and why are you smiling? He used to hate that I smiled.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 1:02:12Trevor Noah?

  Neil, Neil would even say to me sometimes, like, what are you so happy about?

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Neil!

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  I don't think I said.

• 1:02:17Trevor Noah?

  He said that.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  I may have energetically said it.

• 1:02:19Trevor Noah?

  He said, no, he said it, he said, he said, what are you so happy about? In fact, in fact, he has a fun story, Neil, and I've told the story before somewhere, I'm sure, but maybe with you, but like, Neil, I remember you and I were sitting in a random, it wasn't even a diner, I don't know what it was.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  It was a diner, yeah.

• 1:02:34Trevor Noah?

  It was a diner, in Denver. Neil was doing the improv, I think.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  I was doing the comedy work.

• 1:02:39Trevor Noah?

  Okay, the comedy work, so we're having a late, late, late dinner after this, like, you know, midnight type thing, we've both done our shows. And then, classic Neil with his cynicism, you know, Neil's like, how was your weekend? Did you make enough money to barely pay for your flights and your food?

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  You idiot, you African fool.

• 1:02:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and I was like, yeah, because we made no money.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Trevor Noah?

  Basically, as a comedian, you were lucky if you came home with a little money from the road.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  You're just breaking even.

• 1:03:07Trevor Noah?

  That's barely, barely, barely.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  This is 12 years ago, this isn't like forever.

• 1:03:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, this is 12 years ago. And at some point Neil turns to me and he goes, what are you doing here?

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Trevor Noah?

  And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, man, he's like, I've seen your life in South Africa, he's like, why are you doing this? He's like, go home, people love you there.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  You told him to go back to Africa!

• 1:03:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, he told me to go back to where I came from. And he's like, people, people love you there and you're doing arenas, he's like, here you, you're in a comedy club where people came in for free and they don't know you, they don't even like you, and he's like, why, he's like, America, he's like, America's not ready for, what did you say, America's not ready for someone?

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Americans don't like foreign.

• 1:03:47Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Comedians.

• 1:03:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you were like, Americans don't like foreign comedians. And then we went through a list and he wasn't wrong. He's like.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Ricky Gervais is the only one who who made an.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  And they made a show, but they made Americans.

• 1:03:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Trevor Noah?

  And then and then Neil said this to me and we we had this discussion back and forth for a while, back and forth for a while. And I was like, oh, and I I was, I took it in a good way. I was like, you know what, Neil? It's like, thank you. What like wonderful, you're such a good friend. He's like, I don't even know if I'm your friend. We're just, we're just in the same city. But I always, and I've always seen this, you know, I've always said that. I was always like, what a sweet, loving guy. I was like, this is a sweet, loving human being who has been hurt by something and someone in the world.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Trevor Noah?

  And now he wears like a little shell on the outside.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  You saw him.

• 1:04:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the same way I see you.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Trevor Noah?

  The same way I see everyone, genuinely.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  We see past all this, Christiana, to the real you.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Okay. I I don't like to be seen, by the way.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  It's very uncomfortable.

• 1:04:37Trevor Noah?

  So I was like, this guy's a ni- because I I think some, I meet people sometimes who are very nice. And I go, this person is an asshole and I do not want to know them as a human being.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Trevor Noah?

  They will burn your life down if they get the chance.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Trevor Noah?

  And then I meet people who are prickly and I'm like, you, you're a good person.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Trevor Noah?

  You know, you you you hide.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  I'd also like to say that once John Oliver made it, I called him.

• 1:05:01Trevor Noah?

  This was really funny.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  And said, okay, you can come back.

• 1:05:05Trevor Noah?

  No joke.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  I stand corrected.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:07Trevor Noah?

  He literally phoned me.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:08Trevor Noah?

  And I was in South Africa.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Yes, I go, all right, you can come back.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  That's interesting.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  Because there was no, it was kind of pointless.

• 1:05:14Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Trevor Noah?

  But my point is.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  When did he get sweeter? I'm.

• 1:05:17Trevor Noah?

  But this is what I'm saying.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  I got sweeter over time, especially in the last five years.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  What happened? What made you?

• 1:05:23Trevor Noah?

  I remember telling you about therapy and you were like, meh, meh.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  You didn't tell me about therapy.

• 1:05:27Trevor Noah?

  No, I remember talking to you about therapy and you were like, meh, meh.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Did you go to therapy?

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  I've been going to therapy since I was 23.

• 1:05:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but now you went into like.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  But once Trevor told me about it.

• 1:05:36Trevor Noah?

  No, you know, you know what I mean. You opened your heart, Neil.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  I opened my heart from Iowa Skin DMT and MDMA. I I'm sorry, I don't know how.

• 1:05:45Trevor Noah?

  Who did you tell? Who did you tell about relig-? Who did you call when you said like, I now believe there might be a God?

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  You were one of the first people I believe I called.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, so, because I knew he'd like it.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  But you know what, Trevor, back to you.

• 1:05:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but you see, he cared.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Trevor doesn't like to speak about himself.

• 1:06:00Trevor Noah?

  He even cared that I would like.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  I remember what people are into.

• 1:06:04Trevor Noah?

  Yes, which is, which is a nice, that's what I mean. That's what, and I genuinely mean.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never was a jerk, I seemed, I seemed jerky, but was kind.

• 1:06:12Trevor Noah?

  That's my point.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  But Trevor, the thing about you, because you don't like talking about yourself, but I want to make it about you, that I find remarkable, and I'm still learning, is that you, you're, and I think it shows in your fans, in your life, you're able to have like this big tent where loads of different people can come in, and you never feel uncomfortable. Like, you could just live in difference and tension and, and maybe that's because of your childhood.

• 1:06:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's because of my childhood.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  But in a way that I'm, I'm still not there yet.

• 1:06:37Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, but you were lucky, you grew up, like, first of all, you're Nigerian, so you've always had like your people.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:42Trevor Noah?

  And then also like your family and your, I've, I've grown up as a singular.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:06:47Trevor Noah?

  You know what I mean? I was, I was and still am the only person in my family who even looks like me. Obviously, you can find features in my parents, you'd be, oh, I see, eh, eh, eh. But no, my mother's a, a different color to me, my father's a different color to me. We, we look, we are different people, and in the family, I'm a different person, and you, you get what I'm saying? So.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  Does that make you feel like lonely, or you just?

• 1:07:09Trevor Noah?

  No, it, it was the opposite, funny enough. It didn't, it didn't make me feel lonely, because I don't spend all the time looking at myself, which is great.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  It's interesting that you say like you, or maybe you said it like, that you, because of the, you are like kind of tribalist, in terms of, nobody looks like you, nobody, so the, so the whole, everyone's your tribe. You could take it as a, as a prescription to be lonely.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Or you take it as like, oh, all right, well, I guess I'm everybody.

• 1:07:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, I was always just like, huh, you know, it, because it was the only way I was, and I think most importantly, my, my type nucleus treated me as the in. So it's not like my cousins treated me strange, not my grandmother, my mother, my, nobody in my circle, I was Trevor, fully, fully just Trevor. And then, because I understand other people's languages, I would find a way to get in quickly, and then my friends very quickly, I mean, till this day, you all know my friends, but they just treat me like me.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Trevor Noah?

  So I, I don't even look down and be like, whoa, my skin is different to theirs. No, I, I don't do that. And so, let me ask you this, why do you think, I'd love to know, why do you think as Neil, you were always more comfortable and more honest in black spaces than most white people?

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  I never, I just never been that racist.

• 1:08:27Trevor Noah?

  I love that you say that.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  No, cuz everybody's racist.

• 1:08:30Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm just thinking funny.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  It's just a matter of degree.

• 1:08:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  So I've just never been that racist. I had access because one of my brothers worked at the Wrigley Field and all of his coworkers were black. They were always so nice to me. Eddie, Eddie, Michael Jordan, Spike Lee, Arsenio.

• 1:08:48Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  I mean, this is like a creepy story. I'm like nine, right? Nine years old. I used to have to, Eddie's on Saturday Night Live. I used to have to run, my parents would get home. I used to have to run upstairs to hide, that I wasn't watching it, right? Cuz they were, they'd get home, I'm nine, I'm supposed to be in bed.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  At a certain point, I say to my mom, hey, you need to let me watch Saturday Night Live. It's important. I remember being nine and going, what are you talking about? It's important. Again, it's not even like, it's, I'm so saintly. It's just like, it's stupid. It's just like.

• 1:09:28Trevor Noah?

  It's illogical.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  It's illogical. It's like, you and I immediately like, I was like, oh, I think I know what you're like.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  I don't care about, I don't care about your anything. It's like, I know what you're like, you're fucking, you're a very opinionated person. Like, okay, I'll see you at the next argument. Like, there's no, so it's just, it's not, I don't know. I just never really bought that into it in terms of.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Like a social construction.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even, it's not like.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  This is the person.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. It's also just access. What, like, the, the, most of sexism, racism, it's just all these separations that we deal with. It's like, if, if, what would I, if I was in your experience, what, what conclusions would I come to? If I was in yours, what conclusions would I come to? If I, it's like, I under, it's assuming that people are coming to conclusions for a lot, the same logic that I come to conclusions by. And not. Uh, if I were black, I'd be, I, I'm mad as a white person. So imagine what I'd be like.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  And if I was a white man, I'd be so fucking rich.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  You can imagine.

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  I'd be like, I say to my husband all the time, man.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  If they made me look like one of your friends, I'd be killing it right now.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like.

• 1:10:45Trevor Noah?

  I, I. I'm sensing a movie here, guys.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Trevor Noah?

  He wanted to be a black woman.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Someone.

• 1:10:52Trevor Noah?

  She wanted to be a white man.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Someone dropped one of these lights on our head.

• 1:10:55Trevor Noah?

  At a podcast.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I don't, I think it's just theory of mind. It's like, what would it, I don't know. It's, if I, it's just assuming that someone's gonna think the same things you would think, but if, if you were in that situation.

• 1:11:10Trevor Noah?

  So you see, I come back to what I was saying now about sharing space with people. I listened to your story and just listening to what you said. Because of your brother, you went to a place where all of his coworkers were black. At Wrigley Field. You're now associating and seeing black people in their fullness, in their completeness. It is a lot harder to be racist to black people when you know black persons. It's a lot harder.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:35Trevor Noah?

  Cause you're like, no, I know, I know Dave and I know Steve and I know Daquan and I know like, I know, I know people. I know some are like this, I know some are not like this. I know, do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:44Trevor Noah?

  You then go, you, now you're also in comedy, then you're in Chappelle's Show. Again, now, you're experiencing black people from all different walks of life. You, everyone from most deaf and.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  I think, I also think it's good personal experiences, meaning like, Dave was, I don't know, we just got along. We, we were like close, we were like in.

• 1:12:01Trevor Noah?

  And this is exactly.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  Close at the same age, 18, 19. He was nice, he, we wrote, he gave me an opportunity to write a half-baked with him. A lot of this is like, I feel it is like recompense for the opportunities that I've been given by Dave specifically and, uh, and then I give, I take, I give like, black people all credit for that. A bunch of, meaning like, okay, I'll try to hire as many black people as I can, cause I can't, cause white person hired me.

• 1:12:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  I kinda have to, I, morally, I have to. If I believe in any sort of moral framework, I have to try to not be that racist.

• 1:12:41Trevor Noah?

  When you, when you became more spiritual, I'd love to know.

• 1:12:46Trevor Noah?

  Like you and I, many years ago, on The Daily Show, we talked about depression. And how it affects people differently. And this is before I knew I had ADHD. And then I was like, oh, mine's not like depression. It's just a byproduct of ADHD at times. I want to know from you, what do you think some of the biggest blocks were to you figuring it out?

• 1:13:10Trevor Noah?

  You know, in one special, you're joking about wearing a device on your arm that electrocutes you to remind you to smile and seem more affable.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:17Trevor Noah?

  This is a real thing?

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yes. And then it zaps me and I smile.

• 1:13:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  That's the cover art on Netflix, is me fake smiling.

• 1:13:26Trevor Noah?

  Because you've been zapped.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  From being zapped.

• 1:13:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. But then now, you smile more as a person. You just generally.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Trevor Noah?

  What do you, what do you think was the, and it's not the, let's start with the thing that you did. But tell me what you discovered that shifted you out from under the cloud.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  It's the, I mean, it's, it's, it's very danger, ayahuasca, five MEODMT, and then MDMA. It's, I wouldn't recommend it because it's like, it, the five MEODMT, I like, kind of lost my mind for a couple of days. But I, those in sequentially, that's how I did them. And that's, and they worked for me.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  Did you do it under guidance or just?

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  No. I mean, I mean, not, yeah, there's like a person there, but like, they don't, they don't, they're not. There's like, there, there are tribes on the Amazon who, who have a lot of experience and hundreds, thousands of years of sort of how to deal with certain things. And then there's people that I dealt with that, they mean well.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  Neil, Neil, I'm curious, right? Because anytime I see you, you're working. I've never seen you like in a, because you don't want to hang out with black women, obviously. So like, I've never seen you socially. So like, so like, no, I'm curious, what does your depression look like? Because like, you know, there's always this image of like, in bed, I can't work, I don't, shall I?

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  I was never, well, I was always trying to, I tried to work my way out of it.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Okay, so that's why you're always working.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  My way out of it.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, if I could get an achievement, which I think we've talked about before, it's like, you get an achievement, you get a, kind of a, a adrenaline spike that you take for good feeling, or you get an ego boost, which you take for good feeling. And then you kind of just like, eh, and then it wears off. You're like, I gotta do something else.

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  And that's what they call a career.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  So, but yeah, the, the, so I did all that stuff. It more, it's, it's more a matter of changing my relationship to the facts of my life, meaning I'm incredibly lucky.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  I used to think I was unlucky.

• 1:15:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you did.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  I really thought I was unlucky. I really thought I was like, I, I like reason for grievance. And, and then I realized like, no, I, now I have a, a new idea, which is like, life isn't fair. Uh, no one's life should be as good as mine. Like, I was dead wrong about what I thought was happening. Even the things that I thought were negative were positive. And it is like a-

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  Everything was your friend.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  It's all been good and it's all, uh, been to my favor. Even if it's in the, I sent you that thing the other day about, uh, it's a Buddhist story about like, yeah, you never know. You never know what something means.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  The show ends, I'm like, mm. I never would be a comedian if it didn't end.

• 1:16:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Like, all these things that I think were negative were positive, just in a different timeframe.

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  So, that's the biggest takeaway, is that like, changing my relationship to the facts of my life. And I do a thing where I literally write the facts of my life down several times a day.

• 1:16:53Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  Like journal it?

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I call it a checklist to make it masculine. Cause journal.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  But I call it like a checklist of like, the facts of my life.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  Like, you are this, you are this, you are this, you are this, you've got to do this, you got to do the, eh. Like, this is incredible.

• 1:17:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Just enjoy yourself.

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  I've, I think that's a good, good advice for anything. It's like, I can stay mad all the time in this situation, or I can take this as an opportunity for whatever, you know?

• 1:17:28Trevor Noah?

  And so, for me, it goes back to what we were saying about offense.

• 1:17:33Trevor Noah?

  It lives in the same world.

• 1:17:36Trevor Noah?

  I think in everything I'm hearing you saying, the facts didn't change. You know, your house, your car, your life, your job, your friends, your, your, your opportunities, that didn't change. Your relation to them changed, your relationship to them changed. And that's what I think about, funny enough, with genuinely how we see the world a lot of the time with, with its, you know, things online that offend us, people that make us angry, stories. A lot of the time, it's just, it's just your relationship to it. It is, is, is acknowledging the fact is it has happened or you're seeing it.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:08Trevor Noah?

  But now what is my relationship to it? And just shifting that lets you off the hook from feeling like you're wearing a weighted vest. That's what I hear you say.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  That shift is so hard, though.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Oh, it's incredibly hard.

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  I think that.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  But, but even like being a mom, I'm sure is like really tries your patience.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  And you could occupy that space of like, uh, just being aggravated all the time, which I think a lot of parents did for a long time. Or you can just be like, man, it's, it's, I, I can't, I'm gonna feel this way and I have to figure out how to deal with it.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I mean, I just like surrender.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the, yeah. Then my girlfriend says that all the time.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, I can't.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  It's the most zen thing in the world. It's just like, I, he, I have a four year old, they're gonna be four.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  Until he's five.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  And then, and then they're gonna be five, which is another thing.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah, which is his own and just like the surrender and the, the acceptance of like, this is what it is. I can either look at it and be, have my fist balled up all the time, or I can just be like, okay, this is, I got, I'm here. I'm here, I might as well enjoy it. Which is the corniest, tritest.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  Which is scary when you say, I know, because I'm, I like to strive. I love striving.

• 1:19:22Trevor Noah?

  But I think life is a balance between the two.

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Trevor Noah?

  I think, I think if we live only in the moment, we neglect.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, people that live in the moment are, it should be noted, are incredibly boring.

• 1:19:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  To speak to, honestly.

• 1:19:34Trevor Noah?

  I think it's about finding a balance.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  That's hard.

• 1:19:36Trevor Noah?

  And it's, it's almost, yeah.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  Holding those two ideas in close.

• 1:19:38Trevor Noah?

  It's almost impossible because it's like how you look at it, how you choose to relate to it, how you move through. And sometimes you're not choosing it actively, but that's, but that's how I, that's how I understand as Neil Brennan Moore now.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  A bunch of stuff was falling on me and then I just tried to make it fall on me in a different way.

• 1:19:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  And, yeah, in that like. Yeah, and I'm incredibly lucky. I would argue most people hearing this are incredibly lucky in that like you probably have enough money to do all the things. The infrastructure that is in place for you to have.

• 1:20:11Trevor Noah?

  Spotify.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Have Spotify.

• 1:20:13Trevor Noah?

  Oh, anyway, you got your podcast.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Fantastic.

• 1:20:20Trevor Noah?

  Yo Neil, this was, um, every time I speak to you, it's a joy, but um, this was, this was extra special. Thank you for, thank you for joining us.

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  Thank you Neil.

• 1:20:30Trevor Noah?

  Which, if someone has to watch one of your specials now, which one do you want them to watch?

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  I'd say watch Crazy Good.

• 1:20:35Trevor Noah?

  Crazy Good?

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Just because it's the most recent one, yeah.

• 1:20:37Trevor Noah?

  Alright.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  It's kind of the most timely joke.

• 1:20:39Trevor Noah?

  Well, for me, I think of it like, like Star Wars. Go watch the trilogy.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:42Trevor Noah?

  If you watch Three Mikes and you watch Blocks and then you watch Crazy Good, you will know this Neil Brennan and you will see the full evolution.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, you will see it.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  So different.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  In my, yeah.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  Because the last time I saw you was before Trevor quit the show.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  Three years, I haven't met this Neil and it's good, good vibe. You know, you've got that dad energy in a good way.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Don't, don't put that on.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  I can tell he's with a four-year-old. No, I can tell he's with a, because you're like, being with a four-year-old kind of does something to you and you're like, yeah, I just fight with him.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  Who is this Neil?

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  He likes to fight, yeah.

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  I like it.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  I fight, I fight children.

• 1:21:10Trevor Noah?

  We'll save that for another episode. Neil, thank you so much.

• 1:21:13Speaker 02

  Thank you Neil.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:21:15Trevor Noah?

  Bye. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

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