The Untold Stories Behind the Songs That Changed Everything

For Black History Month, we revisit Paul’s conversations with Estelle and Akon, exploring the stories behind their biggest songs, career-defining moments and lasting impact on music. From Estelle creating “American Boy” in a Miami studio to Akon writing “Locked Up” while in prison, they share the stories behind some of their biggest records and the moments that changed their careers. They also reflect on the work behind so-called overnight success, Akon’s 10-year plan for his future, the business opportunities he spotted early in digital music, and why both artists have always focused on making records that last. It’s a conversation about creativity, purpose, longevity and making music that connects across generations. We're Talking Music Legends (00:00) Intro(00:33) The Story Behind Estelle's American Boy(05:38) How American Boy Became an International Hit(08:46) Paul's Favourite Estelle Songs(10:47) How Prison Inspired Akon's Songwriting(12:10) The Story Behind Locked Up(14:20) How Akon's Ringtone Business Changed the Music Industry(17:26) How Lonely Changed Akon's Life Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Welcome to We're Talking. For Black History Month, we're featuring two songwriting heavyweights, Estelle and Akon. They reveal the stories behind some of their biggest songs, reflect on the moments that changed their careers, and discuss what it means to create songs that live across generations.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  At what point do you write the iconic?

• 1:06Speaker 02

  I'm writing one.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  That every, what is it?

• 1:09Speaker 02

  I can't even say it, no, I'm joking.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  No, but you wanted this, though.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  You wanted a song that you could sing to the end of time

• 1:16Speaker 02

  in any country in the world,

• 1:18Speaker 01

  any city in the world.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  I have a few of them, thank God. Come on, now. Won't you do it, won't you do? Yeah.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  When do you write?

• 1:27Speaker 02

  I write that in 2006.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Okay, so you're in the States.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  You're signed to John Legend.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  And Atlantic. And he's like, "Come to Miami. I've got sessions with Will.i.am. I've got some shows out there. Come on, cool." Well, they set up a session with Will.i.am for me to be there, too. And he plays

• 1:49Speaker 02

  he plays the bass of it. Not the intro, just the like the bassline of it. And he's playing that whole thing and he starts running the track. And I was like, "Run that back. What is, what is that?"

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  He's like, "I don't think I said no." I said, "If this isn't a hit, you're gonna make your money back because I'm going to Ibiza with it and I'm gonna make you your money back. I'm gonna go take this record. We're gonna release it in Ibiza. I had a whole independent plan for it. I was like, it's gonna be good. I'm gonna perform it."

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Just Ibiza.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  We're gonna make it just in Ibiza. I and Apple will love this, okay? Because I know this. It felt like, garage, it felt like that vibe. John's like, "What have you been doing out here?" And I'm like, "I've been on the beach. Because why you been recording? I've been enjoying myself, okay? I've been having a time. These guys loves me. These men love me. And I've been loving the men. This has been glorious." And he's looking at me like, "Such a child." I'm just like, "Absolutely. Like, I'm gonna have a good time." He's like, "Well, come on, let's write the record." And he puts in, this time he did the melody. He's like, you know, like,

• 2:55Speaker 02

  and I'm like, "Yeah." And I was like, you know, we back and forth on the different things. And then we filled in the words. One of his friends actually came up with the,

• 3:06Speaker 02

  he was like, "Don't like his baggage, but I might like what's underneath them." And one of his friends said that. And I was just like, "Okay. Who are you, young sir? Like, what is this?" Anyhow, I vocal a demo vocal with everyone in the room. And we're like, "This feels special." Because it felt fun. It was genuinely, we were just in there like, talking shit.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, just having a good time.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Having a good time. And then John leaves, you know. I stay in Miami a couple of days. And I re-vocal it. It took me all of 15 minutes.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  I did it with the biggest smile on my face. I was just having all the joy. I was just like, and but he gave me notes on it. He was like, you know, when you sing it, like, be bright. Like, and I was just like, "Oh, that's easy."

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  I can channel Holly from Heidi High, like all the British comedies and all the fun Dixie. I was like, "That was my channel there." And then we would have all these conversations about the Motown artists and what made them great. And that was our other thing, was music. And one of them, one of the things about the Supremes that no one really knows is like, Diana Ross was put in the front. This is how the story goes. Diana Ross, I'm sure, will say something different, but she was put in front because her voice was light. It wasn't so gospel-y. It wasn't so black, right? And, you know, so the idea was like, "Well, just do a lighter version of the record. Sing it lighter, you know, like..."

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Oh, that was John's note to you.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was like, "You know, sing it light." He said, "Remember the Diana Ross?" And that was the conversation we were having. I was just like, "Yeah, let me try. Let me try." So when I sang it, I was like, I was in my Supremes. I was in there like,

• 4:46Speaker 02

  I was really like, I was really doing Diana, like, you know, in my head.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  And I was giving Polly in the like,

• 4:55Speaker 02

  you know, like going.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Yes. Now, I see it, I see it now.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Exactly. Think about how she would do like,

• 5:04Speaker 02

  the shoulders and the, you know, the decolletage and like, the whole like, that was everything I was given. And so, all of that intention went into that record.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  And it was just fun. It was, the whole point was like, I kept saying in the booth, I remember going like, "This is gonna be fun. People, people are gonna have fun to this. This is gonna be so joyful, you know? Like, this is it." And that's it. It took us, like I said, 15, 20 minutes to hit. And I left it and went home.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  That's, that's the only point that almost feels disappointing to me, too.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Look, but it takes you 10 to 20 years to get to 15 minutes, okay? It took me 10 to 20 years of studying, of practicing the house, of singing every minute I got, annoying every single person around me, annoying myself.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Like stretching my vocal, like training myself to sing octaves that were not natural to me. You know, bronchitis, laryngitis, traveling, body folded over. Unfurling my body, getting in the studio, singing, figuring out to be 15 minutes and perfect.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's incredible. In the research, I mean, you know this better than me. It was number nine on the Billboard Hot 100.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Obviously won a Grammy Award, Best Rap Song Collaboration. Four times platinum in the UK, exceeding 2.4 million copies in the UK alone. Five times platinum in the United States. Just like...

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Good time. It's a good time.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  It's a good time. It was, it was, it just felt like it was buoyed by such good energy and goodwill, too.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  And it lives forever. You know what's so profound to me about "American Boy" in particular? Is that, so I have a 14-year-old and 11-year-old.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Right? They know that song.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yes. It's a blast.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  They know it. A matter of fact, you know, I got the, I got the most number of cool points with them ever. Because I was like, you know, I've got Estelle coming on the pod. They said, "You've got Estelle." I was like, "I know, I know Estelle." It's like, we go back like 10-plus years. They were like, "Dad, why didn't you tell me you know Estelle?"

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Because here's the thing, my sisters feel the same about you, by the way.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, they came to your, they come to your talks. They come, they're like, "Oh." They had a whole, I was like, yeah. And they showed me pictures at one of your talks. They were like, "We was at the panel." I was just like, "All right, did you get close? Tell them I said hi."

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I was like, but isn't this, it's wild.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  It's wild. But the song, though, by the way, tell your sisters I said hello.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  I will. They're gonna see this, they're gonna...

• 7:40Speaker 01

  But, but the song, the fact that it is so profound to them, that means that it's, you got this through time.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  It's, and the Kathy Sledge, who I grew up looking at on a wall with my parents, was on FaceTime with me in the panini. First of all, I'm just, I call it the panini, the pandemic. She was like, "Come on my show." And I was like, "When would you like me there? And with bells, I'll be there." You know, and we get on Instagram Live and she's like, "That's a forever record." I was like, "It is? It is? Like yours?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Like yours, like the many you have."

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Like the many?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Like the many you have. Thank you. You know?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Will there ever be an "American Boy 2.0"?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  You didn't even give it a second.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  No, who wants that?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  No, no?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  No, who wants that?

• 8:31Speaker 01

  I want that.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  You know what? All right, so let me, let me give you this. I gave them that. And it wasn't me who wrote it. It was, it was me entertaining the idea from the label. "Playing Ball," has a song called "Fall in Love," which I still like. It's just beautiful, melodic song. It's really cute. And I love singing it. But they didn't want it. It was like, it was all intents and purposes. If you go look it up, it's a song called "Fall in Love." It features John Legend and it features Nas. I have a record with Nas.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  John Legend and Nas.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  And nobody wanted that record. They didn't play it. They just, they were like, "It's not "American Boy." And I was like, "Well, because 'American Boy' is 'American Boy.' Can I just do what I came here to do then?"

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  And then we moved along and thank you. And then, you know, and here we are. Continue, conqueror, one love freak, like, you know?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, obviously, I don't think that's your only forever record.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  No, no, no. There's a few.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  A couple. There's a couple. 1980.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  I got a couple.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  1980 will forever be one of the ones in the UK. I came out and I sang it the other day. And I barely had to sing it. And that made me feel like, thank you, man.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  What would you guess my favorite is? Or one of my favorites?

• 9:42Speaker 02

  "Come Over"?

• 9:44Speaker 01

  I mean, how do you, what is, why did, why did you know that? Because it is, it's my favorite.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  "Jamaica."

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think it's one of the best songs ever, ever written.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Ever written.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I probably play that song once a week, every week. So when you look at your streams, most of those are me?

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, I appreciate that. That's my, one of my joints, though.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, man. You, like, all you need is that. And it looked like, actually, Sunday is my favorite day to play that.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  And it's another intentional thing. I make records for your life. I don't want to just make it for the minute. I want you to be able to be like, "I hovered the floor playing this. I was in the bathtub to this. I was washing dishes to this." Because this is what I do. And so, I always want to make records that sit in that pocket for people. I never want to just be the hype, the pop, the whatever. I want to make records that you're listening to the words and you're feeling what I felt when I wrote it.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  What I love, too, is that you could listen to it with the family. Like, you know, you know, you know, sometimes some music you just have to...

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Dipsy? This is me in the car by myself.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is outside.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  This is outside music.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but yours is inside and outside music. You know, and I think that's, that's beautiful.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 11:38Speaker 03

  Finding a doctor is hard enough. Finding the right doctor, even harder. Someone who takes your insurance, has an available appointment when you need one, and feels like someone you can actually open up to. That's where Zocdoc comes in. Download the Zocdoc app to search and compare doctors by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real patient reviews, find the right fit for you, and book instantly. Because getting seen by the right doctor matters. Zocdoc, ready to be seen? Download the Zocdoc app today.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  All right, now how long were you locked up for?

• 12:17Speaker 04

  About three years.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  I got out 2001. Then when I got out, the first thing I did was go and start recording all the songs that I wrote when I was in jail.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:30Speaker 04

  And then I realized that Locked Up was the first record that I wanted to release, because I felt like that was the moment that I was in at that time. And then Steve Rifkin, who I was assigned to over at SRC, kind of was with me, but Universal wanted to release Bonanza. That became the record that they felt like was the record.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  But you had the deal already when you were locked up, or no?

• 12:52Speaker 04

  No.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  You had no deal when you--

• 12:54Speaker 04

  I had no deal when I was locked up.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Okay. So tell me about the 10-year plan, though, because I think that's really interesting, how you created basically a vision statement--

• 13:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, the vision board. Yeah, so when I was in there, you know, I would just write on strength, right? And then I was writing Locked Up. And as I'm writing Locked Up, you know, every once in a while, I'd just kind of like sing it to myself to make sure I got what I want. And there was this older guy named Booney, who was like my cellmate. And he would sit there and be like, "Youngblood, man, what you doing here, man? All this talent, man. If you put all that energy that you had on the streets into your music, then you'd be-- you wouldn't be here."

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  You know how big you could be. Right? You know how big you could be? And I was like, "Man, you know what you're right." And then one day, we just happened to be in a pod. We was playing, I think we were playing Spades.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  And then Booney was like, "Youngblood, sing that song, man. Sing that song for everybody. You sung for me last night, man. Sing that song for me." Right? And I'm singing, "Locked up, they won't let me out." Right? So then they was like, "Oh, that's shit hard. That's shit hard." Right? So now, every time a guard would walk past, we would sing the song out together. "Locked up, they won't let me out, bitch. Won't let me out a lot. Won't let me out, bitch." That's the original version, right? So then it became an anthem where every pod would sing it every time a guard would walk past.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  And Booney was like, "See what I'm saying? Look at this, man. You only saying this last week. This is an anthem in here now. Bro, I'm telling you, boy, you better focus, man. You better focus." He was an older guy. He was like 67. He's like, "See? I'm telling you, man. If you don't do nothing else, you don't get nothing else from here. Just remember I told you. If you focus on that music, boy, that's your freedom." And I thought about it. I was like, "You know what? You're right." So I incorporated my company. I said, "Yo, Booney, I took your advice. I started my company, man. What you think?" He said, "Yeah, what you named it?" I said, "Convict Music." He said, "Why the fuck would you do that?

• 14:53Speaker 04

  Convict Music, man? That's the dumbest name I ever heard in my life."

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I mean--

• 15:01Speaker 04

  Right? I said, "Nah, but think about it, Booney. You know, that's what inspired me, man, to do this, man. And this music is starting from here. And I'm telling them what I'm gonna do, and I'm showing them." So I'm saying-- He said, "All right, well, put together a business plan. Let me see it." And I put together a whole business plan that I wrote out, what I wanted to do in the next 10 years.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Okay. And what was on-- what were some of those moments on the 10-year plan?

• 15:21Speaker 04

  The first thing, I wanted to record these songs.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  That was the first thing. I gotta get me another studio and record these songs. That's gonna be the first thing I do. Once I get these songs, then I'm gonna go out and get me a record deal.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Once I get this record deal, I'm gonna get that money from a record deal, and I'm gonna purchase in a legitimate studio.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Right? And then from there, I'm just gonna create catalog. I'm gonna write for everybody that needs songs. I'm gonna be a writer, a composer. And if the artist stuff worked, that's cool. But I know this part is a no-brainer, because I know I got this.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  You just said something that I find really interesting. You said, "I'm a businessman."

• 15:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Right? So I've interviewed lots of, I say, exceptional musicians. And not all musicians qualify themselves as a business person.

• 16:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  But the one thing that I was doing in my research that I said, I was like, "Nah, Akon's a businessman," is when I saw-- or when you realized how much money you were making on ringtones.

• 16:14Speaker 04

  Right.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  To me, that was fascinating. Could you talk about how that influenced your music?

• 16:21Speaker 04

  Well, I would probably say that kind of gave me an understanding of where music was going business-wise.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:29Speaker 04

  I already saw it going digital. Like, that's why I always retained my digital rights, because I saw then, okay, technology's changing, and music is a part of that change, right? We were selling singles at the time for $1.99 for songs that was like at length, four minutes, some five, even seven minutes at that time. There was no timeline for how long a song was.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  Today, two minutes max.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Two minutes.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Right? And those were like $1.99. But then, ringtones came up, and those were $5.99 for 15 seconds.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 17:06Speaker 04

  If that. That was the longest a song was, was $5.99. I said, "Well, hold on. Some may add up. Or maybe it needs to add up. 15 seconds for $4.99, which is five bucks, or $1.99 for four or five minutes." It just made complete business sense to me. I said, "I need to be focusing on ringtones. Every song that I make has to be ringtone-friendly, or I'm not releasing it. Because I'm gonna utilize not only the ringtones to promote myself, because every time the song rings, guess what? Somebody's hearing the song, "Oh, what song is that?" And they go buy it."

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:42Speaker 04

  So you got walking billboards all over the globe with your ringer on their phones every time it rings. And that could happen five, 10, maybe 50 times a day.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  You know what I'm saying? So I don't need radio no more. I got ringtones. And then on top of radio--

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 04

  Oh, forget about it.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  So when you're writing music--

• 17:58Speaker 04

  Right.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  You're thinking--

• 17:59Speaker 04

  I'm thinking completely ringtones.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Ringtones.

• 18:01Speaker 04

  Yep. I'm thinking ringtones. Okay, which part of this are we gonna push out for the actual song? So I always thought about the chorus. So when I wrote the chorus, I said, "Okay, this chorus has to be able to work on a ringtone."

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Okay. That's incredible.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  That's incredible. Yeah. I mean, I could see that. Like, I didn't realize how much-- how many albums you've sold. And not even till doing this research. Everything-- it seemed like with the drop of your first album, everything just went platinum, like--

• 18:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was-- man, I was blessed, to be honest, you know? I think it was-- but believe it or not, the Africans was the ones that supported the most. Like, especially the first album. You couldn't walk through Harlem without hearing Akon. Senegalese was up there.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Oh, it's blowing you down.

• 18:45Speaker 04

  You know what I'm saying? And then from there, it went to the West Indians, because I was doing a lot of dubplates. So between the Africans and the West Indians, it became like-- they became like my mouthpiece, like my promotional tools. Like, they-- their word-of-mouth is really what got me even noticed, to be honest.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Okay. But then from there, there was the crossover.

• 19:05Speaker 04

  Then it crossed over. When I got to Mr. Lonely, everything changed.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:10Speaker 04

  Like overnight.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Overnight.

• 19:12Speaker 04

  That's what it felt like, at least.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  And how did it change for you?

• 19:16Speaker 04

  Well, for me, I started noticing that I was traveling internationally. Because before then, I was performing Locked Up, Trouble Nobody, Ghetto domestically. And then I was getting a lot of dates in Africa. Those records was huge over there. And then I had a mixtape called The Illegal Alien, where I had Senegal, and I had all the-- I had all the hottest beats at the time, and I took those and freestyled over them. So the mixtape was just as popular as the album and the singles. So with that, I was all over Africa. I was everywhere in Africa. And then when we dropped Mr. Lonely, then I was like, "Okay, this is different." Because now I'm on-- I'm getting called on pop stages. But what was crazy was

• 20:01Speaker 04

  the pop audience knew the urban records.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:04Speaker 04

  They knew the Locked Up records. They knew the ghettos. They knew-- I was like, "Ooh, this is different." Then we would go to places in Europe, like Germany, you know, Netherlands. You go to places like Germany where nobody spoke English, but they sing the song from top to bottom.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:18Speaker 04

  That's when things got really interesting. I wouldn't say weird, but it's funny, because I would think that after I got offstage, I could have a regular English conversation with you. And they couldn't understand nothing. And I'm like, "But how are you singing my songs from top to bottom, and we can't speak English together?"

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  So that weirded me out for a minute. I was like, "Wow, this is different." That's when I realized, okay, God is special.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Right. And you're blessed.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And you're blessed.

• 20:42Speaker 04

  100%.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  When you think about your career, what was the moment where you just looked at it and said, "This is surreal. I can't believe I'm doing this"?

• 20:55Speaker 04

  I would probably say when the first time it actually happened, where I actually had that moment. Like, because I kind of expected it in certain places. Like, home in Senegal, I expected it. But it was mania, almost like Michael Jackson status. That's when I almost caught it. But I was like, "Well, I'm in Senegal. They're supposed to support me this way." It's like--

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  You know?

• 21:18Speaker 01

  And when you say "almost Michael Jackson status," you're talking about--

• 21:20Speaker 04

  No, like, I couldn't go out. I couldn't go nowhere. Like, literally, I couldn't walk down the street. I couldn't go to the local store. It would always be thousands of people waiting outside.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Thousands.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  Like, thousands. But when I went to Zimbabwe,

• 21:35Speaker 04

  it was like-- wait a minute. Like, from the airport. We couldn't leave the airport.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 21:44Speaker 04

  Like, we couldn't literally leave the airport. Like, we couldn't leave the airport. Like, the people would not leave until I showed my space. So they had a sunroof up there, and I popped my head out the sunroof. I felt like I was in three stadiums in one. It was so many people for as long as you can see people. And I literally had to ride all the way to the airport on the roof. Because that was the only way I had to be there. You know, I'd just tell people like--

• 22:06Speaker 01

  To tell people, "Move out."

• 22:07Speaker 04

  Just-- it was like a sea of people. It was unbelievable.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  I mean, how does it feel to have that response to music that you create?

• 22:18Speaker 04

  That was another thing that was surreal. Like, you're like, "Damn. Like, my music is affecting this many people like this?" That's when I realized, "Okay, I got a major purpose." Like, it's those moments that make you realize that, okay, everyone in life has a purpose, and your purpose is always gonna be intangible with your gift. Whatever your gift is that God gave you, that's what's gonna be-- what's gonna take you or walk you through the trail that you need to walk through to get to your purpose.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  And if you want to hear the full, unfiltered stories from today's guest, you can check them out on the We Need to Talk page. Drop a like, leave a comment, and hit subscribe. See you next week.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's fall drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Finding a doctor is hard enough. Finding the right doctor, even harder. Someone who takes your insurance, has an available appointment when you need one, and feels like someone you can actually open up to. That's where Zocdoc comes in. Download the Zocdoc app to search and compare doctors by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real patient reviews, find the right fit for you, and book instantly. Because getting seen by the right doctor matters. Zocdoc, ready to be seen? Download the Zocdoc app today.