Pod Insights We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson Gypsy-Rose Blanchard: “No One Has Really Listened To Me… Until Now” About this episode Gypsy-Rose Blanchard became one of the most recognisable women in modern true crime after the murder of her mother, Dee Dee Blanchard, and the alleged medical abuse that shocked the world. In this rare conversation, Gypsy reflects on the childhood she says was built on lies, the complex relationship with her mother, and the questions she believes were never asked.
She opens up about wanting to be loved, the relationships that shaped her life, and the catastrophic dynamic with Nick Godejohn, who is now serving life in prison. Gypsy revisits the night Dee Dee was killed, and the thinking behind what happened. She also reflects on guilt, accountability and whether her prison sentence was fair for the crime that was committed.
Now a mother herself, Gypsy reflects on the kind of parent she wants to become, the cycles she is determined to break, and how she begins to move forward when the world still knows you by your darkest chapter.
Gypsy-Rose Blanchard, We Need To Talk
This conversation includes discussion of child abuse, medical abuse, sexual assault and murder. Please take care while watching. We’ve included links to support resources below:
NSPCC: https://linkly.link/2kE84
Samaritans: https://linkly.link/2kE85
MIND: https://linkly.link/2dx8b
The Survivor’s Trust: https://linkly.link/2kE8q
RAINN: https://linkly.link/2kE8h
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(00:00) Intro
(02:14) The Notoriety of Gypsy-Rose
(03:10) Early Life
(07:28) Gypsy's Mother's Mental Health Issues
(12:04) Alleged Sexual Assault in Childhood
(16:35) Why Gypsy-Rose Left the Family Home
(18:11) The Medical Procedures Gypsy-Rose Underwent
(33:36) Did Gypsy Feel Loved by Anyone as a Child?
(39:36) Dating as a Teenager
(50:38) How Gypsy Met Nick
(01:03:50) Gypsy Reflects On The Night Her Mother Died
(01:24:57) The Aftermath of the Murder and Court Proceedings
(01:32:02) Time in Prison
(01:35:24) How Gypsy Met Her First Husband in Prison
(01:54:39) How Gypsy Adjusted to Life After Prison
(02:05:30) The Birth of Gypsy's Daughter With Ken
(02:15:51) Most Memorable Conversation
(02:17:35) Paul's Takeaways
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Transcript 19,818 words · 4 speakers
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0:29 Speaker 01 Gypsy Rose, when you reflect on your participation in murdering your mother, what actually happened?
0:37 Speaker 02 I should have spent the rest of my life in prison. I felt like my mom was my best friend. She was my protector. So you have a child that just wants her mom to love her.
0:48 Speaker 03 You're the reason I was born to be a mom.
0:51 Speaker 01 What was your mother claiming?
0:52 Speaker 02 I had supposedly a seizure disorder, leukemia, paralyzed since birth. But I knew that I could walk.
0:59 Speaker 01 Was there ever a moment where a doctor told her no?
1:02 Speaker 02 Yes, this brings us to quite a pivotal moment.
1:05 Speaker 01 But you then start dating. There was Nick, Ryan, and Ken.
1:10 Speaker 02 Something in me snapped. Nick was the gasoline, I was the fire. First thing he said when he comes through the door is, "This [BEEP] is dead." I wanted to go and help her.
1:22 Speaker 01 You were trying to hold on.
1:25 Speaker 02 Having people run up to you and want to take a selfie with you, none of that I was prepared for. Y'all made me this. I didn't. But it wasn't until I had my daughter, thinking to myself, "How can a parent ever hurt their child?"
1:41 Speaker 01 Was there anything that you've seen or heard about your life you want to clarify?
1:45 Speaker 02 In all the interviews that I have done, I have never had anyone really listen to me. Until now.
1:54 Speaker 01 In this episode, Gypsy Rose Blanchard shares her own account of her life and experiences, including the murder of her mother, childhood abuse, and allegations of sexual assault. We must note, to be legally accurate, that these allegations of sexual assault have been reported previously, have been denied or disputed, and have not resulted in criminal prosecutions. We report but do not adopt them. These topics may be difficult to hear, so please, watch with care. This is a deeply powerful conversation, and I hope that you take something meaningful away from it. If you do, please like and subscribe to our channel, as it really helps us to keep bringing you more and more conversations just like this one.
2:49 Speaker 01 You're one of the most recognizable, I think, figures in the United States. Gypsy Rose is one of, I think, the most recognizable names. However, I believe that there is a lack of understanding about who you actually are.
3:08 Speaker 02 Are, yeah.
3:09 Speaker 01 And what actually happened.
3:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:12 Speaker 01 And that's the reason why I'm so intrigued and so honored that you're here to give us your time.
3:18 Speaker 02 Well, I'm happy.
3:19 Speaker 01 All right.
3:20 Speaker 02 I'm happy to get into it.
3:21 Speaker 01 All right, let's do it.
3:23 Speaker 02 All right, let's do it.
3:24 Speaker 01 Okay. So, could we then begin with your parents?
3:29 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
3:30 Speaker 01 All right, so DeeDee and Rod.
3:32 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
3:33 Speaker 01 When did your parents meet, and where did they meet?
3:37 Speaker 02 So, my parents met in a town, I mean, very small, in Louisiana. Originally, they became friends, and then not too long after, you know, hanging out, my mom got pregnant. And my father felt like the right thing to do would be to marry my mom. Even though, you know, he was, I mean, honestly, he was just a kid.
4:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:03 Speaker 02 You know, um, he dropped out of high school. And around that same time, he got another woman pregnant. So I have a half sister. And he realized, oh, my gosh, like, now I have two daughters. To take care of and pay child support on and things like this. Um, and on my dad's eighteenth birthday, he realized that he was not in love. That he married my mom for good intent. Um, but it, he didn't love her. He wasn't in love with her like that. And so he ended the relationship. It ended in divorce. Um, and my mom got custody.
4:46 Speaker 01 Okay.
4:47 Speaker 02 And I lived with my mom.
4:49 Speaker 01 How do you think that impacted her?
4:52 Speaker 02 You know, in hindsight, I realized that, you know, that must have been so hard on her. Um, because there's not only that element of abandonment, but
5:08 Speaker 02 the trauma that my mom went through as a child herself. Um, I think the hits just kept coming. And she loved him very, very much. So, you know, looking back on it, that must have been heartbreaking. And I am, I am a reflection of my dad. Like, I look just like my dad. So I can imagine that that must have been really hard for her.
5:33 Speaker 01 Yes, yes, absolutely. What was life like for you and your mother in particular in those first five years?
5:40 Speaker 02 I mean, I would, I would say that, you know, I felt like my mom was my best friend. Um, I felt like she was my protector. The childhood seemed fairly normal because the first five years of my life, my grandmother was still alive.
5:58 Speaker 01 Hmm.
5:59 Speaker 02 Um, and I, I, I honestly feel like when my grandmother passed away, my mom lost a part of herself that at least was keeping her together. Um, because at the age of five, I was still able to be around my cousins. I have a very large family, um, lots of cousins, um, I have two aunts, um, uncles, and then when my grandmother passed away, um, my grandfather got remarried. My mother did not approve of the new relationship and everybody took sides.
6:39 Speaker 01 Okay.
6:40 Speaker 02 And then from there, my mom and I started moving around.
6:44 Speaker 01 Interesting, uh, and, and was that because you could no longer live in the house?
6:49 Speaker 02 Correct, um, from what I understand, my uncle addressed, um, all the things that my mom was doing at that point. Um, he was like, why isn't Gypsy in school? You need to put her in school. Um, I really just don't think she's as sick as what you claim. She's perfectly fine, she's, she plays with my kids. And he just put her on blast.
7:17 Speaker 01 I see it, so what was your mother doing or claiming at that time?
7:21 Speaker 02 Well, at the age of, you know, five, I was still seeing many doctors. The list of ailments was not as long as it was obviously later on in life. But I had supposedly a seizure disorder, supposedly I had leukemia, um, hearing impaired, vision impaired, uh, muscle weakness. So all of these things I was still in, um, GI problems, gut problems. So all of this was happening even at the age of five.
7:54 Speaker 01 What, what about, do you remember or what you, what you've heard? What did the other family members, especially who were living with you? What did they think?
8:04 Speaker 02 The thing about my mother's side of the family is they don't really recognize mental health problems.
8:13 Speaker 02 You know, obviously, in the nineties, eighties, nineties, mental health problems was shrugged off and considered, um, you're weird. You're, you know, they, they put you in a box and in a category that you're just crazy.
8:27 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:28 Speaker 02 Um, instead of it being addressed with therapy. Um, and so that's the kind of box they just put my mom into. Even, you know, her own family put her in that box of like, oh, she's just weird. She's just crazy. And so it's like, I think that they had a hint that, yeah, this is not normal. But there's a lot of things that was going on in that family that was not normal.
8:51 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. Now, you mentioned there, and, and this is something that, this is a term that I, I didn't know until doing the research for you. Is so, from what I understand is, is, yes, your mom wasn't weird or crazy. She suffered from a disorder.
9:08 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
9:09 Speaker 01 Uh, so this is this, uh, FDIA or Munchausen. FDIA, fabricated or induced illness.
9:16 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
9:17 Speaker 01 Or FII. Uh, and it's a severe form of child abuse.
9:21 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
9:22 Speaker 01 Or mental illness where a caregiver fakes or causes symptoms or illness in a child to gain attention or sympathy.
9:30 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
9:30 Speaker 01 Right? Uh, and it's previously was known as Munchausen syndrome by proxy.
9:35 Speaker 02 Correct.
9:36 Speaker 01 So, from what I understand, this is what your mother suffered from. And I've seen reports that have said that she has one of the most, uh, historically, one of the most notorious, this is one of the most notorious sufferers of this disease.
9:56 Speaker 02 Correct.
9:56 Speaker 01 And she took this out on you.
9:59 Speaker 02 Correct.
9:59 Speaker 01 Okay. So, so the family doesn't know what's happening. They just say that she's weird.
10:06 Speaker 02 Correct.
10:07 Speaker 01 But as you mentioned, there's other things happening in the house. Can you talk about what was happening in the house? So we understand the full environment.
10:18 Speaker 02 I mean, as far as, you know, my mother goes, um, she was supposed to be on medication. She was supposed to be on medication because she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Um, and I remember like there was a therapist that would come to the house, a counselor. Um, and then when we moved from Louisiana to Missouri, she stopped seeing the therapist. And she stopped being on medication. Um, I remember, you know, growing up with a mom that said, you know, do you hear that?
10:57 Speaker 02 I, you know, I hear voices, um, telling me that there are seven voices and six of them doesn't like me. Um, do I see that, like seeing things that aren't there? And, and I didn't see these things. So, you know, it would, it would kind of break my mom's heart when I would be like, no, I don't see anything. Um, so it's definitely a lot of that manipulation. Um, growing up, my mom was like, your dad wants nothing to do with you. He has his family now. He's remarried. He's got new kids. They're his favorite. Um, he doesn't love you and he doesn't love me and, but I love you. I'm the one that's here day in and day out. Appreciate me, you know?
11:41 Speaker 01 I see it.
11:43 Speaker 02 So it's, it's a lot of that. And growing up, I didn't have a high self-esteem. Um, not because my mom didn't tell me I was pretty. But more so because I wasn't allowed to form my own identity. Um, and feel confident in myself discovering who I am.
12:04 Speaker 01 I see it. I see it. And even on that point too, where you mentioned your mother in essence was isolating you.
12:12 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
12:12 Speaker 01 Right, from your, from your father. I've noticed that this is a standard maneuver of abusers. Is the social isolation of their, of, of the person that they're targeting.
12:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:26 Speaker 01 And it's interesting to see a mother do that to, to, to a child. So, so now, um, if, if you're willing to talk about it, is that, um,
12:39 Speaker 01 You know, when you're talking about, there's lots of stuff happening in the house.
12:43 Speaker 01 From what I understand is your grandfather was assaulting people. Can you talk about that so we can understand at, what, six or five?
12:57 Speaker 02 I was nine.
12:58 Speaker 01 You were nine?
12:58 Speaker 02 I was nine. My earliest memory of something just not being appropriate would be, you know, around the age of five-ish.
13:11 Speaker 02 And when after my grandmother passed away.
13:17 Speaker 02 It was me, my mom, and my grandfather all living in the house until he, you know, moved.
13:23 Speaker 01 Okay.
13:24 Speaker 02 And so upstairs, there's a bathroom on the second floor, and it had a tub. And I remember my mom taking a bath and my grandfather like washing her. And then she gets out of the tub and then proceeds to put me in the tub with him. And, you know, I have, I have this memory, other family members have called me a liar. They do not believe this at all because they're like, the tub was so small, how could two people fit in there? I was little. I was very little.
14:03 Speaker 02 And, you know, obviously having my grandfather expose himself like that, I was so little, I didn't. I didn't think anything of it because I didn't know anything about sex or anything like that.
14:17 Speaker 02 But he found enjoyment in exposing himself to me. And then when I was nine, after a bad car accident happened with me and my mom. She was left in the hospital and somebody needed to take care of me. So my grandfather stepped in and I went to live with them for a short time. And this is where the majority of the abuse happened. And I was confused about it. I felt like it was wrong, but I wasn't sure exactly why I felt it was wrong.
15:02 Speaker 02 And it wasn't until I got a little older that I started, you know, obviously learning more about sex and sexual acts. That, you know, it's sad that my first memories of that has to be like, oh yeah, that's what grandpa did to me. You know, um, and a lot of my family members are not speaking to me now because I have been so public about it.
15:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, um, it's, um, it's so hard to hear, um,
15:35 Speaker 01 incidents like this. But then in particular, at nine, this is your family. And this is the only assemblance of safety that, that, that you have, which is, which is none. Was, do you believe your mother was aware? I know that you said other family members are in denial of this. But, but was your mother aware of what was happening?
16:04 Speaker 02 She was aware after the fact. So I had on a car ride to the hospital, it was one of my checkups. I, we were riding in the car and I started to tell her about it. And she started to cry and she asked me a very specific question.
16:27 Speaker 02 And I said, yes. And she's starting to cry. And I started to backtrack. I got scared, I didn't want to see her cry, so I started to backtrack. I'm like, no, I, no, it didn't. And I just wasn't fully open with her about it because I could see how much she blamed herself.
16:53 Speaker 02 And it wasn't until much later that she had told me, you know, he did the same thing to her.
17:01 Speaker 02 And so she decides, hey, you know, we, we can't stay here anymore. Mo- mostly because of the constant drama between her and my grandfather's wife.
17:12 Speaker 01 Okay.
17:13 Speaker 02 Um, it just left the house very super uncomfortable. And so my mom just thought it would be best for us to leave. Um, we stayed at the Ronald McDonald House in New Orleans for a few months, actually.
17:27 Speaker 01 Okay. And for everyone who doesn't, is not familiar with the Ronald McDonald House, could you explain it?
17:31 Speaker 02 So the Ronald McDonald House is essentially um, a home, a lodging home for children and their families while the children are going through um, their doctor's appointments. It's a place for them to stay um, near the hospital. Um, and i- it's at a short fee. So I think it was like five dollars a night for us, I believe. Um, so, you know, it's crazy to say that the Ronald McDonald House was kind of like, okay, that was my next home. Um, cause we stayed there so much. Um, but then my mom found um, section eight housing. And that's where we lived from there. I feel like the constant arguments between her and her father.
18:16 Speaker 02 Um, then learning of my abuse just kind of all spiraled her more and more into this darker place.
18:25 Speaker 01 Okay, okay.
18:27 Speaker 02 And around the age of, you know, eight or so, um, went in to the hospital for, um, actually, you know what, I can't even remember what it was for. But I did a long time in the hospital, it was like a six month stint in the hospital.
18:42 Speaker 01 Okay.
18:42 Speaker 02 Um, and that's when they put the feeding tube in.
18:46 Speaker 01 And, and you can't recall how you got to the hospital?
18:49 Speaker 02 My mom drove us, um, but I, I don't remember what the initial appointment was for.
18:54 Speaker 01 Okay, but you ended up then going in for six months?
18:57 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
18:58 Speaker 01 Which, I mean, that, that's significant.
18:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's a long time.
19:01 Speaker 01 And you were given a, you, a feeding tube? And then you were placed in a wheelchair?
19:07 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm. Yeah, so the, the wheelchair, um, happened, that, there are so many different stories that my mom told different people. So, the initial story that my mom told to family was, I went into the hospital.
19:27 Speaker 02 Then upon having surgery, I had a seizure on the operating room table. That left me paralyzed. That was the first story.
19:37 Speaker 01 Okay.
19:37 Speaker 02 Okay. So, of course, growing up, that's what I thought. I knew that I could walk. I just want to make that clear. I knew that I could walk.
19:49 Speaker 02 So then she goes on to tell other people, well, she was paralyzed, and doctors, mind you. Tell doctors that I was paralyzed since birth.
20:02 Speaker 02 Even though there's pictures and there's family and, and there's all these people that had seen me grow up walking.
20:09 Speaker 01 Right, right. So then,
20:14 Speaker 01 what I believe is hard to understand is how do doctors then believe her enough to give you the feeding tube, to give you the wheelchair? How, how were they fooled?
20:29 Speaker 02 My mom had a very, like, her personality was sweet. Um, to the untrained eye, I guess you could say, she had a very welcoming presence. Um, everybody, it was like that classic southern mom. Hi, sweetie, darling, sugarplum, you know, all that.
20:52 Speaker 01 Yes.
20:52 Speaker 02 Um, and there was one doctor in particular, um, that she honestly,
21:02 Speaker 02 I think, in my opinion, buttered up. She would buy him gifts. He would come and visit us at the Ronald McDonald House. You know, there was this sort of friendship that I don't feel is professional. You shouldn't have friendships with your patients.
21:25 Speaker 01 Okay, I see it, I see it. And, and so because of her charisma, right, she was able to, it sounds like, dupe.
21:36 Speaker 01 These doctors.
21:38 Speaker 02 Hmm.
21:39 Speaker 01 Wa- was there ever a moment where a doctor said, no? And and told her no?
21:44 Speaker 02 There, yes, there was, and um, this brings us to a quite a pivotal moment. Um, there was a doctor, his name was Dr. Flaschenstein, and or Flascherstein, however you wanna kinda say it. Um, and he examined me, he was a neurologist. I'm pretty sure he's retired now, but um, he asked me to stand up in his doctor's office. Now, I learned this on a documentary, on the documentary about myself. I'm learning things about my own life in a documentary.
22:19 Speaker 01 Look at that.
22:20 Speaker 02 Um, and the the rough part for me is, you know, I have a therapist. And for a long time, after watching the documentary, I'm like, he's lying, I I never, I don't remember that. I never remember him asking me to stand. And then, a few months ago, I was laying in bed, and I feel like I have two memories. And I don't know which one's real, but I think I maybe do recall him asking me to stand up. And I don't know if something was blocking that memory, but now I'm kind of like, oh my god, maybe he did.
23:01 Speaker 01 Yes.
23:02 Speaker 02 And I think I did stand up.
23:08 Speaker 02 And he told my mom, point blank, there's no reason why she can't walk, she can walk, she's fine. And my mom left, we never went to see that doctor again. But that doctor had put in the medical records, in his notes from that day, suspicion of mother with Munchausen by proxy. He puts that in the medical records. Now, my mom would always request a copy of the medical records after every appointment.
23:39 Speaker 01 Okay.
23:41 Speaker 02 We guess, me being me, my family, my attorney, we all think that she's seen that in the medical records and chose to leave and not go to that doctor again.
23:54 Speaker 01 Okay, okay, and so when a doctor leaves a report like that.
24:01 Speaker 01 Then where does it go?
24:03 Speaker 02 Usually it would go to social services.
24:07 Speaker 01 Okay.
24:07 Speaker 02 Uh, uh, child, family protective services, which they did come to my house. They come to my house, they separate me and my mom, her in the living room, me in my bedroom. They bring a sheriff or a deputy with them.
24:24 Speaker 01 Oh, my goodness.
24:25 Speaker 02 So it was two caseworkers and a deputy. And their ques- the deputy was questioning my mom in the other room about why is there a E at the end of Blanchard? Because it's just Blanchard, there's no E at the end. But she had put an E at the end and essentially was, you know, forging all these documents.
24:50 Speaker 01 Ah, okay, so in Blanchard, that's your last name?
24:53 Speaker 02 Yes.
24:53 Speaker 01 So Gypsy Rose Blanchard.
24:56 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
24:57 Speaker 01 But she's including that.
24:59 Speaker 02 Yes.
25:00 Speaker 01 To throw people off.
25:01 Speaker 02 To throw people off.
25:01 Speaker 01 Wow, look at that.
25:03 Speaker 02 And so they questioned her, you know, why is the birth date different? From this hospital to this hospital, how old is your daughter? When was she born?
25:13 Speaker 01 Yes.
25:14 Speaker 02 Where was she born? And she goes on to tell them a story about how, you know, she had a terrible marriage with my father and he's abusive. And she put the E at the end because to avoid him finding us.
25:32 Speaker 02 So I don't know what they told her, if they're like, okay, fine, forget it, straighten out, I don't know. But in the other room where I was being questioned, they were asking me, is there bruises on your body?
25:46 Speaker 01 Okay.
25:46 Speaker 02 Um, can I look at your arms? Could I look at your legs? So I showed them my arms, I showed them my legs, um, and I was terrified of being taken away from my mom because my mom raised me to believe that.
26:02 Speaker 02 Child services, the state, as she would call it, is evil, is bad people. And so I was terrified to be taken away from my mom because at that time, yes, a lot of abuse was going on, but I also loved my mom very much. And they were asking me questions that didn't pertain to Munchausen by proxy.
26:25 Speaker 01 Okay.
26:26 Speaker 02 There wasn't physical hitting, there wasn't punching, there wasn't physical abuse.
26:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:34 Speaker 02 So I didn't think to say, I could walk.
26:39 Speaker 02 Because they were asking the wrong questions. And I'm not, I'm not blaming them, like all this is their fault. I'm just saying, I think that, you know, in situations like this, Munchausen by proxy should have been looked at. If you see a child supposedly with all these medical issues, you have a doctor that writes in his notes, you know, suspicion of Munchausen by proxy, why aren't you asking those questions? The right questions, instead of asking me if I had bruises, you know?
27:09 Speaker 01 If they had asked the right questions, how do you suspect?
27:15 Speaker 02 I probably would have been so innocent and probably just told them the truth. Like, yes, I could walk, not, not knowing, because I didn't know what Munchausen by proxy was.
27:25 Speaker 01 When you reflect back upon the procedures, wh- what were all the procedures that, that, that the doctors ended up doing on you?
27:33 Speaker 02 So the, the most prominent ones were, of course, the feeding tube. Now, uh, my mother claimed that I was having trouble swallowing. Now, I have no recollection of ever having any eating issues. Um, you know, the surgery happened when I was eight. So from birth, all the way to eight years old, eating perfectly fine.
27:55 Speaker 01 Yes.
27:56 Speaker 02 No issues. Um, then all of a sudden, going to the hospital, having issues eating. And they had put the temporary feeding tube through the no- the nostril. Um, and then the doctor said, we want to do something more permanent. How about, let's do a G tube?
28:14 Speaker 01 Wow, you know, I didn't realize you had a permanent.
28:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:17 Speaker 01 Feeding tube.
28:17 Speaker 02 Yeah. So they put a permanent feeding tube. And I had that all the way up until the crime happened.
28:30 Speaker 01 So all the way through your teens?
28:32 Speaker 02 All the way through my teen years, yeah.
28:34 Speaker 01 So does that mean that you then never?
28:37 Speaker 02 It's not that I didn't eat by mouth, but ate very little by mouth.
28:42 Speaker 01 Okay.
28:42 Speaker 02 So I would like mashed potatoes. I was allowed to eat that. But I was mostly fed through the feeding tube with Pediasure or Ensure, which is just a supplemental nutrition shake.
28:55 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. So that was what, nine all the way to your early twenties? So almost two decades of having a feeding tube. What does physically, physically, what does that do to you?
29:12 Speaker 02 I mean, physically, every six months I would have to have it changed. Because any sort of foreign object in your body, the stomach acid is gonna erode it away. So every six months I'd have to have it changed, which is very uncomfortable. They don't put you under anesthesia or anything for that.
29:32 Speaker 02 And just kind of feeling the something foreign in your body. Certain clothing I couldn't wear because it would snag and pull and tug. I mean, it's an open hole into your stomach.
29:46 Speaker 01 Yes.
29:47 Speaker 02 So growing up with that, you know, it was something that I adjusted to. But it left me with a scar now that I don't have it. It looks like a second belly button.
29:57 Speaker 01 Yeah. So then, Gypsy, what are some of the other procedures?
30:02 Speaker 02 Okay, so if you notice, I have a scar, okay, around my neck. And I also clear my throat a lot and have to drink a lot of water.
30:12 Speaker 02 So my salivary glands that produces saliva was removed from my neck.
30:20 Speaker 02 My mom would put Ora gel before we would go into the doctor's appointment on my mouth to make me drool. Okay? So upon examination, the doctor saw me drool. It's excessive drooling. There is a way to take care of that. So let's remove the salivary glands.
30:40 Speaker 01 Wow, wow. And, and, I bet that's a major procedure.
30:45 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
30:46 Speaker 01 And you are how old when that procedure happens?
30:48 Speaker 02 Um, that procedure happened in two thousand and seven, I believe.
30:53 Speaker 01 Okay, two thousand and seven.
30:54 Speaker 02 My mom always would tell me, you know, I'm doing the talking. Just be a good girl, play with your stuffed animals.
31:02 Speaker 01 Okay, in other words, don't, don't say anything.
31:05 Speaker 02 Right, and if you be good, which means stay quiet, we get to go to Toys R Us and a toy store as soon as we leave.
31:14 Speaker 01 I would imagine too is that you're so used to going to the doctor
31:17 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
31:18 Speaker 01 that this is just a normal.
31:19 Speaker 02 This is just routine.
31:20 Speaker 01 This is routine.
31:21 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
31:22 Speaker 01 At home, um, when you're not in the hospital, you would then just remain in your wheelchair?
31:29 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm. And we, our day-to-day life was me in the wheelchair. I didn't get up and walk around unless she was not in the house.
31:40 Speaker 01 Oh, wow.
31:41 Speaker 02 So if she left the house to, say, go to the grocery store for a second, I would get up and walk around. I would test the limits.
31:49 Speaker 01 Yes.
31:50 Speaker 02 Um, leg strength wasn't great. Obviously because I haven't, I hadn't been walking like normal. Um, but just to kind of feel like, hey, I'm walking.
32:03 Speaker 01 Yes. Did you ever think or bring up the fact that you could walk to your mother?
32:10 Speaker 02 I did many times and it always resulted in an argument. And it always resulted in some form of it bringing
32:22 Speaker 02 all of it back to her, like, you don't love me. You, um, you know, I'm supposed to be the one you trust. I'm supposed to be the one you love. Um, but if you feel like you can go and do better with your dad, then go. Like, it was always like this level of manipulation. Like, any time that I would bring up, I'm not as sick as you're, you're saying, it was always an argument.
32:52 Speaker 02 And then I felt like I had lost a mom.
32:57 Speaker 02 And I didn't want to lose my mom. And so, you know, some would say I went along with that. Perspective is everything.
33:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:07 Speaker 02 If you want to say, I went along with it, okay, but look at the reasons behind it. You have a child that wants her mom to love her.
33:20 Speaker 01 Yes. Yes. You know, that that really hit me because I I see that accident.
33:27 Speaker 02 Hmm.
33:28 Speaker 01 I also see the what was happening in her house. I see the circumstances in which you were born. Unknowing what's happened to your mother, you know, in her childhood.
33:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:43 Speaker 01 And how each incident created to the spiral, as you as as you mentioned. And you feel as if you're losing your mom.
33:53 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:54 Speaker 01 And so you're just fighting to keep her.
33:56 Speaker 02 Hmm.
33:56 Speaker 01 And sometimes fighting to keep her is just staying silent.
33:59 Speaker 02 Correct.
34:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
34:02 Speaker 01 Did you feel love
34:08 Speaker 01 from anyone outside of the love that you assume that your mother was was providing you? But did you feel love? And when I say love is this emotional safety, physical safety. Did you feel that with anyone?
34:22 Speaker 02 Back then?
34:23 Speaker 01 Yes.
34:24 Speaker 02 No.
34:27 Speaker 01 Did you feel it with your mother?
34:30 Speaker 02 Yes, for for a time. Um, it's all a little older.
34:36 Speaker 01 Okay.
34:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:37 Speaker 01 Okay. So,
34:41 Speaker 01 when you begin to not have feel that love, and now that you reflect back as an adult, is what was happening for you? What was going on for you as a child who doesn't feel safe emotionally or physically?
34:59 Speaker 02 There was anger towards her for I felt allowing my grandfather
35:09 Speaker 02 to take care of me at that time. And so I I blamed her for what happened to me with getting molested. And
35:20 Speaker 02 There was resentment that boiled up. You know, it wasn't there in early childhood because I was so innocent.
35:27 Speaker 01 Okay.
35:28 Speaker 02 Um, but then the more time went on, the more anger and resentment built up. Like, you don't let me go over to dad's. And spend nights over or weeks over with dad. Um, I can never keep a friend. I might have a friend for a week. And then all of a sudden, my mom starts to get jealous of this friend. And and we're talking a child, you know, we're talking an eight year old child that you're getting jealous of. Um, and there was always something that was wrong or off about that child. So I could no longer have that friend. And it happened over and over and over again.
36:11 Speaker 02 You know, most people have that best friend child, you know, the best friend growing up as a child. I never had that.
36:16 Speaker 01 Never.
36:17 Speaker 02 Never had that. And that was a continuous cycle for everyone in my life. Um, and so it's like I knew that no matter who it would be that I would get close to. It wouldn't matter because they they would be, you know, it wouldn't be in my life forever. The only forever was my mom.
36:40 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. And and and with your mother, it seems like everything then you did was was with her.
36:47 Speaker 02 Mm hmm, everything.
36:48 Speaker 01 Everything. Did even in when you were in the same house, did you? I I read that you slept in the same bed.
36:54 Speaker 02 Slept in the same bed. Mm hmm, the only time that I was ever sleeping in my own room in my own bed was as a punishment.
37:02 Speaker 01 Interesting.
37:02 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
37:03 Speaker 01 Okay.
37:04 Speaker 02 Which is a small child, you know, I mean, young child, I I grew up, I loved sleeping with my mom as a child. Um, and I was afraid of the dark. And so a punishment of mine would be, you know, you have to sleep in your room. And I would cry and I would cry and I would beg to go back to sleep with her. Um, but it it's certain things in parenting that it's like you need to show your child gain some independence and not make independence a punishment.
37:32 Speaker 01 Yes.
37:33 Speaker 02 You know.
37:33 Speaker 01 Yes, yes, absolutely. Uh, and I will imagine now, more so than anything, you're you're very aware.
37:40 Speaker 02 Oh, yes, I'm very.
37:40 Speaker 01 Yes, of of of that. Uh, what do you enjoy doing? As a child.
37:48 Speaker 02 As a child, you know, I loved playing outside. I loved, as a small, small child, I had a bunch of cousins. And we'd do Cousins by the Dozens nights. All the cousins would come over and do sleepovers.
38:03 Speaker 02 I loved to watch TV. I loved dressing up. Loved Disney movies. Loved playing with my dolls and Hot Wheels. Like, my toys and my mom was like my comfort.
38:17 Speaker 01 Okay, and I can see how she used the toy store. Because that was it. It was the toys. I loved a good Hot Wheel myself.
38:24 Speaker 02 Yes, they are good collectors.
38:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, very good, very good. There's been an endless number of documentaries, TV specials, extended podcasts about your, about your life. It centers around your childhood, the crime. Was there anything that you want to clarify that you've seen or heard about from these documentaries that you do believe is inaccurate?
38:52 Speaker 02 That's a loaded question.
38:55 Speaker 02 I mean,
38:58 Speaker 02 nothing that I could, I could really touch on specifically. I mean, all I know is that, you know, from, from birth to, you know, five years oldish, you know, the, the simplicity of having my mom,
39:19 Speaker 02 even with the medical stuff. I loved my mom so much at that time.
39:27 Speaker 02 My mom was my world.
39:32 Speaker 01 I see she was everything and the only thing that she had.
39:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:42 Speaker 01 Real quick, hit follow and tap the bell icon. It allows us to continue bringing you this show that we all love. We can go anywhere in the world. Right now, I'm in L.A. And we'll bring you the most phenomenal guests. And the only thing it costs you is to hit follow and tap the bell icon.
40:02 Speaker 01 You then start dating.
40:07 Speaker 02 Kind of.
40:07 Speaker 01 Kind of, sort of.
40:08 Speaker 02 Kind of.
40:10 Speaker 01 How, how does that happen? And also, how does your mother react to that? Because you just mentioned, when it comes to platonic friends, she, she runs them away. So, so, so how does, yeah, how do you start doing that?
40:26 Speaker 02 Well, my mom, how do I put this?
40:31 Speaker 02 My mom was very anti-men.
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41:04 Speaker 02 Once my father broke her heart, it's kind of like I grew up with a mom that became bitter. I'm just gonna put it out there, bitter, that every man is a horrible douchebag that is just out to hurt everyone. So, my mom never, like, my mom wanted me to be a nun, literally, and she was gonna put me in a convent. Like, she really wanted me to be a nun, even though I never expressed to her that I wanted to be one.
41:37 Speaker 02 So, knowing that, I always knew she didn't want me to date. You can't stop the curiosity in a child or a teen. And that's where I was at. You know, I was curious about the opposite sex. I was wondering, you know, so-and-so lives down the street. She has a boyfriend.
41:57 Speaker 01 Right.
41:59 Speaker 02 And I started comparing my life to other, you know, people around my age. Watching the Disney Channel, they have these sort of pseudo-boyfriends on TV shows and stuff.
42:09 Speaker 01 Yes.
42:10 Speaker 02 So, I started getting curious, but I got curious in the wrong way. So, instead of, you know, obviously, kids meet other kids via school. I wasn't in school. So, I went to the internet. And I found creeps on the internet. I did things on the internet I'm not proud of, like take my clothes off for strangers. Um, these uh, men that I would, you know, meet online. They were predatory. And I wasn't thinking anything different other than, yeah, this is an experience that I've had before.
42:57 Speaker 01 So it's normal?
42:58 Speaker 02 It was normal. So it's kind of like I made a secret Facebook account that she didn't know about. Um, I was adding strangers on there, you know, meeting what I thought would be friends.
43:10 Speaker 01 Yes.
43:10 Speaker 02 Um, and then we went, there was a kind of like, I don't know if you know what Comic Con is?
43:19 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, definitely.
43:20 Speaker 02 Or like a sci-fi convention type of thing. So there was one that would happen in Springfield, Missouri every year. It was called Vision Con.
43:27 Speaker 01 Okay.
43:28 Speaker 02 And so anyway, my mom takes us to this convention. And we meet lots of nice people. We have a great time. I dressed up like a princess, like it was fun. Um, I started adding all these people that went to the convention on my Facebook.
43:44 Speaker 01 Ah, okay, okay.
43:46 Speaker 02 And they would say like, oh, it was so nice to see you at the convention. So at least there was some level of like interaction, like, oh, you were at the convention, so was I. Um, and there was a guy that was at the convention. He sent me a Facebook request. His name was Dan and he was much older than I was. So I was um, real age eighteen.
44:14 Speaker 01 Okay.
44:14 Speaker 02 Eighteen, nineteen. But my mom was trying to pass me off as fifteen. Okay, so he thought that I was fifteen.
44:22 Speaker 01 Okay.
44:23 Speaker 02 He was thirty-six at the time.
44:25 Speaker 01 Okay.
44:25 Speaker 02 And started talking on Facebook and just on Facebook.
44:32 Speaker 02 I thought he was cute. And he was kinda digging me too.
44:36 Speaker 01 Okay. Is this your first kind of interaction pseudo romantic?
44:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, okay, okay.
44:45 Speaker 02 So we flirted for a while and then I start telling him more about my life. And my mom had caught us talking on the phone and she threatened him.
44:58 Speaker 01 Oh wow, okay.
44:59 Speaker 02 And then I found, I was going through my mom's purse and I found my um like my health insurance card. And it said my birthday was nineteen ninety-one. And so I'm like, that would make me like eighteen, nineteen. Not fifteen. So I tell this to him. And I'm like, well, that would make me legal. Like, I can go live with you. Like, you know, like all this were like ideas.
45:28 Speaker 01 Yes.
45:28 Speaker 02 And he's like, well, if you're legal, then you could just get up and leave. Like, you can just, you can leave. And I'm like, I don't have a car. I don't have a way to leave. And so he's like, I'll take you as far as Arkansas. Like, we can live together on a ranch in Arkansas. So two weeks go by, I get a text from him that he's in the hospital. That he wants me to join him in the hospital. He wants someone to be there with him. Um, he got beat up.
45:57 Speaker 02 So I pack a bag. And in the middle of the night, I get out of my mom's bed, pack a bag, go out the front door,
46:05 Speaker 01 Wow.
46:06 Speaker 02 hitchhike, meet him at the hospital. And he didn't have a home. He was couch surfing at his friends. And so we go to his friends. They, they realize that I'm there and they recognize me from the convention. And they realize this girl is fifteen years old. So they got in contact with a mutual friend of my mom's. Told my mom where I was. Four hours later, my mom comes to pick me up.
46:38 Speaker 01 Oh my goodness.
46:39 Speaker 02 And.
46:41 Speaker 02 She told me, she's like, if you come back with me, I'll let you see him. Manipulation to the fullest. So I get in the car, I'm like, okay. And I mean, at this time, I'm like, all courage and I'm like, I'm, I know I'm nineteen and I know that I could see him.
46:57 Speaker 01 Yes.
46:58 Speaker 02 And she's like, if you come back with me, I will let you see him. So I go back with my mom and that's when I got chained tied. To me, all these, you know, words restrained to the bed happened for two weeks.
47:17 Speaker 01 For two weeks?
47:18 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
47:19 Speaker 01 You, you, you were.
47:20 Speaker 02 Tied.
47:21 Speaker 01 Tied, tied. Tied to the bed.
47:23 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm. So what my mom did was she took a dog leash and clipped it and tied it to a pair of like handcuffs. And then put it around the bed. And then whenever like I would need to go to the bathroom, she would undo it. And then like she had a way like, cause we were in the same bed, so she can tell if I would move or whatever, she'd wake up. And it, it was like that for two weeks. She put bells on the doors and then eventually put a padlock on the door. Um, blacked out all the windows with tent, like window tent. Um, that's when she started hitting me though.
48:07 Speaker 02 That's when the hitting started.
48:11 Speaker 01 At, at this point, you're, you know, you're eighteen, nineteen, but, but she's telling you that you're, you're fifteen.
48:18 Speaker 02 Yes.
48:21 Speaker 01 Your relationship with your mother, do you perceive her to still love you?
48:29 Speaker 02 I didn't feel like it was love. I felt like it was a need. Like she needs me because she doesn't have anyone else.
48:41 Speaker 02 Um, and so it's like after she tied me up, I gained enough trust to where I'm like, I'm not gonna leave again. I'm not gonna leave again. Don't worry about it. I'm not gonna leave. Um, so that trust was built up enough to be let off the chain. Well, then it's like soon after I attempt to run away again.
49:02 Speaker 01 Oh, wow. Okay.
49:04 Speaker 02 But this time like she found out and looking back on it, I'm like, why pack a damn bag? Just get out of the freaking house. Cause I kept packing bags. Like, let me pack a bag.
49:16 Speaker 01 Right.
49:16 Speaker 02 She found my bag. And so she knew I was gonna run away again. And so, and I owned up to it too. I was like, just let me leave and I will, you'll never see me again. Um, you know, just forget about me. Just let me go. And she's like, I won't and I can't and you're not leaving. And that's when I proceeded to take a BB gun and I knew full in well, it was a BB gun. It was not going to kill her. Um, I took a BB gun and she came toward me and I freaked out and I released the BB gun.
49:55 Speaker 02 Um, one hit her in the clavicle, one hit in the leg. Um, they were superficial wounds. You know, they broke the skin, but ultimately a Band-Aid covered it up. Um, and then after that happened, like,
50:13 Speaker 02 we both had this moment of like, sit on the bed, holy shit moment.
50:22 Speaker 02 And I was never the type to be violent, ever. I never yelled at my mom. I never hit my mom. It was like, it was at that moment that I realized that something in me snapped. That I could snap in that big of a way.
50:44 Speaker 01 What was your mother's response?
50:47 Speaker 02 I honestly feel like she never expected to be
50:52 Speaker 02 trapped in her own choices. Her own design was falling apart in front of her. And I don't think that she realized that, and I don't mean this in any sort of mean way, but I don't think she realized I had the guts to stand up for myself in any meaningful way.
51:14 Speaker 01 And, and so is it at this point where you then join the, the Christian dating site?
51:21 Speaker 02 I did, um, about, about a year later.
51:24 Speaker 01 Okay.
51:24 Speaker 02 About a year later, I had joined the Christian website. Um, and then the first thing that I noticed of Nick's profile is he liked to play video games.
51:34 Speaker 01 Okay, you're chatting back and forth.
51:36 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
51:37 Speaker 01 Uh, does your mother become aware?
51:39 Speaker 02 No.
51:40 Speaker 01 No.
51:41 Speaker 02 So I had a secret Facebook. I had, um, you know, a secret Skype account.
51:47 Speaker 01 Wow, okay.
51:48 Speaker 02 Um, I have a conversation with him that I want to meet him. We want to meet each other in real life.
51:55 Speaker 01 Oh, so wow, Gypsy, so how long had you and Nick been corresponding without having met?
52:00 Speaker 02 It was like two years.
52:02 Speaker 01 Two years?
52:03 Speaker 02 It was like two years, yeah.
52:04 Speaker 01 You had never met?
52:05 Speaker 02 Never met.
52:07 Speaker 01 Okay.
52:08 Speaker 02 Nope. Um, yeah, I mean, it was just like, kind of like Skype calls and stuff like that on the, all on the internet.
52:14 Speaker 01 Okay.
52:15 Speaker 02 And so we make a plan and I'm like, listen, my mom is not gonna just let me just date anybody. So maybe if she meets you, she could see what a nice person you are. And she'll like you, you could be my friend. And then like I can ask her if, you know, you could maybe be my boyfriend. And then we wouldn't have to hide or lie anymore, like. So we think of this event, like where where possibly could I be and you be? And I wanted to see the new Cinderella remake, the live action.
52:52 Speaker 01 Okay.
52:53 Speaker 02 Remake.
52:54 Speaker 01 Okay.
52:54 Speaker 02 That came out in twenty fifteen. Um, so we decide, okay, that's where we're gonna meet up. So my mom and I are gonna go see the movie and you're gonna be there too to see the movie, but we're not together. We're meet like we never met.
53:08 Speaker 01 I see it, I see it.
53:09 Speaker 02 Okay. So we're standing in line, you know, comes the day, we're standing in line getting popcorn and stuff like that. And he's there alone. But I didn't realize the optics of how that would look. Like here's this guy. That's alone, doesn't have kids, doesn't have a girlfriend, doesn't have a wife, nothing like that, just go and see a little girl movie. I did not how see how that would be weird.
53:38 Speaker 01 Until you got there.
53:39 Speaker 02 Until, no, until years later, then I'm like, you know what, yeah, that was kinda creepy, like what were we thinking? Um, but my mom called it, she's like, this guy is giving me weird vibes. And so we're in the auditorium and my mom and I are sitting next to each other, well, he comes sit next to me.
54:00 Speaker 01 Oh, wow, okay.
54:01 Speaker 02 My mom decides, hey, this guy's kinda giving me the creeps. So she moves several seats down. I stay put.
54:12 Speaker 02 I'm sitting with him. I'm not moving. She gets pissed. That I didn't move with her. So throughout the whole movie, you know, she's sitting there and I'm sitting over there with him. She's mad at me at this point, like I know I'm in trouble at this point.
54:28 Speaker 01 Yes.
54:28 Speaker 02 And he and I had previously discussed that we were gonna have sex in the bathroom. So.
54:39 Speaker 02 I go to the bathroom, to the men's bathroom, go to the handicap stall, he follows me in. We attempt to have sex.
54:50 Speaker 02 Doesn't work out.
54:51 Speaker 01 Okay.
54:53 Speaker 02 And I go back, sit, you know, sit next to my mom. She proceeds to take me to the bathroom on the opposite side. Slaps me across the face and says, you were gone too long.
55:11 Speaker 02 What were you doing?
55:14 Speaker 02 So I was like, nothing, nothing, nothing. You know, of course I'm gonna say nothing, nothing, nothing.
55:18 Speaker 01 What?
55:19 Speaker 02 Um, so the movie ends, we leave. He takes a cab back to his hotel. And we have a huge argument at the house.
55:32 Speaker 01 You and your mother?
55:32 Speaker 02 Me and my mom.
55:33 Speaker 01 Okay.
55:34 Speaker 02 About how she got the creeps from this guy, like why I didn't go sit with her, like the smallest little things would just kind of set her off. So I'm like, I'm sorry, I was just trying to make a new friend, you know, I was doing my best to kind of like bridge that connection because I really wanted, you know, I really wanted both of them in my life. I wanted my mom in my life and I wanted Nick in my life. And she was not budging. She got a bad vibe from him from the beginning.
56:06 Speaker 01 You and Nick then just continue messaging back and forth.
56:10 Speaker 02 Continue messaging.
56:11 Speaker 01 And you feel like this is your boyfriend?
56:13 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
56:13 Speaker 01 Still?
56:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
56:15 Speaker 01 Um, and then your mother, your relationship with your mother, does it continue to deteriorate from there?
56:22 Speaker 02 Continues to deteriorate and we had previously, yes, knocked around the idea of murder.
56:31 Speaker 01 You did.
56:32 Speaker 02 And it was from, all stemming from a conversation where he's like, it was, it was an argument between me and my mom. Stuff got physical, she hit me, I told him she hit me. And he's like, I'm gonna protect you from anyone. I said, anyone? He said, anyone. I said, even my mom? And he said, yes, even your mom. Like, I'll take her out too. And never thinking that that was actually going to happen.
57:01 Speaker 01 Okay, so for you, it wasn't? A serious thought.
57:06 Speaker 02 It wasn't a serious thought until after what happened at the movie theater.
57:11 Speaker 01 Okay. Okay, so, oh, really, so after the movie theater.
57:15 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
57:16 Speaker 01 Then at that point. You were, it would, would help me understand how it became a serious thought after the movie theater.
57:22 Speaker 02 Because that's when I started to realize, like, no matter what I do, I will never be able to be my own person, never have my own freedom, never make my own choices. I'll never get married, like, all of the thoughts of like, what is my life gonna be like in the next twenty and thirty years? Is it gonna be like this right here? Is my life gonna continue to be this? For the rest of my life, my youth gone, any happy moments of ch- future children, anything like this? How long is this going to continue? And that thought kept going in my head over and over and over again.
58:06 Speaker 02 So, yes, the desperate thought of, I want my mom out of the picture. And it's like, I didn't want her dead necessarily. I- if she would have went to prison, I would have been all the happier.
58:22 Speaker 02 But that unfortunately was a conversation he and I had.
58:26 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. So you had it.
58:29 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
58:29 Speaker 01 Um, and also, I'm curious, Gypsy, at this point, you are roughly how old? Because I know age-wise.
58:37 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
58:38 Speaker 01 Um, you, you, you don't know exactly.
58:41 Speaker 02 I was, I was twenty-three.
58:43 Speaker 01 Okay, okay, you were twenty-three.
58:45 Speaker 02 Yes, twenty-three.
58:45 Speaker 01 So, so this, this is even more fascinating, because you're an adult.
58:49 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
58:49 Speaker 01 At this point.
58:50 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
58:50 Speaker 01 But you still feel as if you are trapped.
58:54 Speaker 02 Yes.
58:55 Speaker 01 In, in your mother's home.
58:56 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
58:56 Speaker 01 Uh, and you'll never be able to leave it.
58:59 Speaker 02 Right.
58:59 Speaker 01 Literally.
59:00 Speaker 02 Right.
59:01 Speaker 01 Okay. Um, the relationship with Nick as well is, how would you characterize it? Because I, I've, I've seen moments or excerpts where it's been characterized as abusive.
59:13 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
59:14 Speaker 01 But how, how do you characterize that relationship? It was toxic.
59:18 Speaker 02 Toxic, very, very toxic.
59:21 Speaker 01 Okay, how so?
59:23 Speaker 02 Um, our personalities um were not a good, not a good fit. Um, our backgrounds was not a good fit. Um, I, I say, and I say this in my book. You know. Nick was the car, I was the key. Um, he was the gasoline, I was the fire.
59:46 Speaker 02 Separately, probably not dangerous. Together, catastrophic. Um, because he brought a component to me and I brought a component to him that resulted in tragedy. Uh, you know, his conversations with me was predominantly about sex. It was predominantly about overpowering a woman. Um, because he had an interest in this BDSM, um, master-slave relationship. And he had this with his ex-girlfriends as well. So it, it was before me, during me, and after me. So this is not something I brought to the relationship.
1:00:29 Speaker 02 This is something that he had a thing for. Um, and I had not heard of, of, you know, this sort of master-slave relationship until meeting him. And so I did what I could to fulfill that fantasy for him. And that included making videos that we would send back and forth to each other. Um, those videos have now been released to the public. Um.
1:00:58 Speaker 01 Is that a, what, because of the court case or for other reasons? Okay.
1:01:03 Speaker 02 Um, they are quite humiliating because these videos were intimate. They're not meant for the public. They were meant for Nick and Nick and only at the time. Um, but anything from, you know, doing sexual acts to um saying really disturbing things that I definitely regret later on now.
1:01:29 Speaker 01 Right. I, I think what's important for, I think us all to understand too is the context because from what I understand is you had no one else.
1:01:38 Speaker 02 Right.
1:01:38 Speaker 01 So literally your world revolved around then your mother and Nick.
1:01:44 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
1:01:45 Speaker 01 Two people that you are desperately in need of loving you. Do you believe they loved you?
1:01:55 Speaker 02 I believe my mother loved me to an extent. I think that she didn't know how to show love. I think that unfortunately, you know, she didn't get the mental help, the mental health help that she would have needed to understand how to love a child and have a raise a child on her own. Um, going through the childhood that she had. Um, Nick, I do not believe he loved me one bit. Um, I believe that I was someone who was in a very specific situation.
1:02:34 Speaker 02 Um, vulnerable situation to fill out his fantasies. Um, he often had fantasies that were very disturbing.
1:02:47 Speaker 01 Could, could you, are you open to saying?
1:02:49 Speaker 02 Rape fantasies. Um, and he was looking for someone who was not worldly and experienced. Um, so someone in a very vulnerable state to live out these fantasies with or to.
1:03:09 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:03:10 Speaker 02 And like I said, it would be one thing if,
1:03:15 Speaker 02 you know, I brought a certain element into the relationship that was equally as disturbing. Like if those were my desires, but it wasn't. Um, and before me, you know, his ex-girlfriends did warn me. There was, there was an ex-girlfriend that did warn me that he has very disturbing behavioral patterns. And I brushed it off like, she's just a jealous ex-girlfriend and I completely ignored it. Um, and then until it was too late.
1:03:47 Speaker 02 And then also, post, post me, post our relationship, he's went on to have another relationship, um, prison relationships. And where he continues the same cycles over and over again.
1:04:05 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. Going to the crime, what I understand was a catalyst for you also,
1:04:15 Speaker 01 was, was it your throat that was going to be?
1:04:20 Speaker 02 It was gonna be, um, like biopsy explored, explored. And they were gonna, you know, have to do more things to my throat, but on my, my voice box this time.
1:04:32 Speaker 01 Okay, so you were, so if you can take, take me to that, because it seems like that, that was an important moment for, for you.
1:04:38 Speaker 02 Yes, like it was, it was a moment where I was like, I already had throat surgery already. And it was, it was a rough surgery. And so the thought of going through another procedure, that I'm like, well, this time, you're gonna, you're gonna start messing with my voice. And that's terrifying.
1:05:02 Speaker 02 You know, I, I felt like, how much more are you gonna take from me?
1:05:07 Speaker 01 And so, June 10th, 2015.
1:05:14 Speaker 01 If you can take me to that day, or even the preceding day, and walk me through it, step by step, what you were thinking, what was going on for you?
1:05:25 Speaker 02 So I knew that that was the day. I had been texting with Nick. He said, you might wanna start saying your goodbyes.
1:05:37 Speaker 02 And so, I just remember, my mom and I said, we're gonna paint our nails, we're gonna watch a movie. And I wanted to make it a good night. Like, I wanted to make it a night that I felt like I would remember her for the good.
1:05:56 Speaker 02 So. She cooked dinner, she ate her dinner, I painted her nails, she painted my nails. Um, picked out a movie. And. Laid down. She took a little longer to fall asleep and then I fell asleep. Then I woke up shortly, like. Five minutes after she fell asleep. And I texted him that she fell asleep. Um. And I said. The gloves are on the porch. And he's like, okay, I'm taking a cab over. And he not like, he didn't knock on the door, he um, he texted me, he's like, I'm here.
1:06:41 Speaker 02 So I get up out of bed and I walk over. Open the door. First thing he said when he comes to the door is, this bitch is dead.
1:06:54 Speaker 02 And I told him like, be quiet, be quiet. And he's like, where's the knife? So I hand him the knife. And he said, get your bleepin ass to the bathroom. So I go to the bathroom, I close the door, I lock the door behind me. And I just kind of get into the fetal position and I cover my ears. Um, and that's. That's what happened.
1:07:20 Speaker 01 If, if, and at any point you don't want to, to, to, to discuss this, we can, we can move on. Uh, a few questions though, that, that I have is, so. Going into that day, it sounds like. Over the last maybe two, you've known Nick now for what, two years, three years?
1:07:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:07:37 Speaker 01 There, you have discussed. Murder previously with him. He's had fantasies of raping, murdering. Um, how did you know, how did you, why did you believe? That it was actually going to happen? On, on, on this day?
1:07:57 Speaker 02 I honestly didn't think that he was gonna go through with it. Until it actually happened. Um, and then after it happened. There was a point where.
1:08:12 Speaker 02 I didn't process what happened. He was walking around the house and talking at a normal voice tone. And I was like, shh, you're gonna wake her up. Like, there, there was a level of distance from this situation where like I was still, she was dead in the other room and I'm still thinking. I'm afraid she's gonna wake up, see you in the house, and, you know, punish me in some type of way.
1:08:45 Speaker 01 Did, did you go to, to see your mother?
1:08:49 Speaker 02 No. No, I did not go in that room. I, Nick actually anytime, because her room is like right here, my room was right here, and then there's the hall. And so he would block her room. So anytime I was walking in and out of my room, he would block the area, so I couldn't see.
1:09:11 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. Now, um, I, I'm, I know that you're aware of, of how severe um, the, the murder was. Um, and I understand he, he used the knife that you provided him. Uh, and that, uh, the, the stab, the stabbing was so severe that it almost severed her head. Did he talk about
1:09:39 Speaker 01 the murder at all? There was no discussion?
1:09:41 Speaker 02 No discussion of it. Not, not after the fact, no.
1:09:45 Speaker 01 Okay. Did you, when in the bathroom, because I would imagine there was a, there, there was a tussle, there was a, there was a, a fight that, that, that ensued. Did you hear anything?
1:09:59 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:10:00 Speaker 01 You did? What, can you say, what, what did you hear?
1:10:03 Speaker 02 I heard screaming. And it was.
1:10:08 Speaker 02 Like horrible sound. It was a horrible sound. It was screaming. It was shock. I almost think I heard, "Who are you?" Was asked. And, and I, I, I am right because um according to some of the transcripts of Nick's testimony and other inmates that had talked to him. She had asked, "Who are you?" And he responded, "I am Death." Um, so I do know that that was probably what I heard. Um, and I remember her calling out for my name and like I, I wanted to go and help her.
1:10:51 Speaker 02 Like I felt like I wanted to go and help her, but I was terrified at the same time. Like my body was paralyzed. I couldn't move. Um, and I just kept, kept remembering, breathe. Remember to just breathe. And I kept telling myself in that mind, just breathe. And I was so focused on like trying to, to breathe and block it out. And I just remember one sharp scream and then nothing after that.
1:11:24 Speaker 02 And then I realized it was over. And then he came to the bathroom door and knocked for me to open up the door.
1:11:32 Speaker 01 What did he say to you?
1:11:34 Speaker 02 Um.
1:11:37 Speaker 02 He didn't, I don't think he said anything. He, he had cut his finger.
1:11:44 Speaker 02 And so he wanted me to bandage him up. And he wanted me to be completely naked when I opened up the door. And so I was completely naked. Um, and he wanted me to hug him.
1:12:01 Speaker 02 So there was this sort of embrace.
1:12:06 Speaker 02 Where it was. I was in a state of shock.
1:12:14 Speaker 02 That I couldn't believe what happened.
1:12:23 Speaker 01 And he, now I better understand, knowing his previous desires and BDSM and what he had said to you previously. Now I understand why he said, when I come to the door, you should be naked. I understand that he then assaulted you.
1:12:48 Speaker 02 Yes, that specifically was really difficult because prior to having the crime happen, he wanted to assault my mom. That was his fantasy. He wanted to assault my mom. I felt like that was too far. I was like, no, I will not, you know, do it to me instead. And he said, fine, that's the price you have to pay then. If you don't want me to do that to your mom, you're gonna have to let me do it to you. And I agreed. So, come to that point, keep in mind, I was a virgin.
1:13:32 Speaker 02 Come to that point, I guess I agreed to something I didn't fully understand.
1:13:39 Speaker 02 And...
1:13:42 Speaker 02 That's all I'll say about that. And what's even more horrible is I had to testify in court. And I had to, I'm gonna be open and honest and say that I had to basically say
1:13:59 Speaker 02 he didn't rape me.
1:14:02 Speaker 02 Because
1:14:04 Speaker 02 he got me to agree to it. So is it, even though I said, stop. I said, no, stop, you're hurting me. But because I previously agreed to it, now I'm confused. What is consensual?
1:14:20 Speaker 01 This is, yeah, I thought consent is given and removed in a moment's notice.
1:14:25 Speaker 02 I thought so too, but apparently not in the court's eyes.
1:14:30 Speaker 01 So because you had what verbally or in a text said that you were open to having sex, that that gave him open consent?
1:14:43 Speaker 02 Yep. And in the eyes of the court, they feel the same way too. Because I told the court, I said, "Stop." And they said, "Did he with you?"
1:14:55 Speaker 02 And they have evidence that I agreed to it. So I said, "No." Knowing full and well that he did.
1:15:04 Speaker 01 Wow. This is in court, was this is in, what state was this?
1:15:09 Speaker 02 Missouri.
1:15:10 Speaker 01 This is in Missouri. Okay, okay. Yeah, that's, that's, that's a horrendous law there. And so
1:15:22 Speaker 01 after the assault, how do you feel in that moment if you can go back?
1:15:27 Speaker 02 It was, also, you have to understand that there was, yes, there was this assault, and yes, there was the crime.
1:15:38 Speaker 02 But Nick had also claimed that he has multiple personalities. So during this whole time, he's switching back and forth between personalities.
1:15:50 Speaker 01 Oh, interesting.
1:15:51 Speaker 02 Um, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Split?
1:15:54 Speaker 01 Yes, I have.
1:15:55 Speaker 02 It was like that, where you can just change, just like that. So the person that murdered my mother, his name is Victor, not Nick, okay? Person who assaulted me is Victor, not Nick. So in my mind, these are two completely different people.
1:16:18 Speaker 02 I'm not looking at the, you know, the person that just assaulted me and Nick is being the same person. I'm, I'm thinking, okay, you know, one means to hurt me, but also save me. And the other one is just, you know, the Nick that I had been talking to for two plus years. So I was compartmentalizing at the time.
1:16:41 Speaker 01 Okay. And did you, at the time, did you believe that he was multiple people in essence?
1:16:48 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:16:48 Speaker 01 Okay, you did.
1:16:49 Speaker 02 I fully believed it. Like I said, I grew up with a mom that heard voices, saw things. So I was pretty gullible to just believe about anything.
1:16:58 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. Now I see. So then what do you two do at, at this point?
1:17:06 Speaker 02 So we, we go back, cause he was, uh, staying at a hotel nearby. So we go back to the hotel. And, um, I also had been self-medicating. I had developed a addiction to opiates. So I was taking three Xanax's and Vicodins all together. And I was very, very high after the fact. Um, ordering pizza, giggling, laughing.
1:17:40 Speaker 02 Not a care in the world.
1:17:42 Speaker 01 Okay. And this is in the house?
1:17:45 Speaker 02 No, no, no, no, no, no.
1:17:46 Speaker 01 In the hotel?
1:17:46 Speaker 02 In the hotel.
1:17:47 Speaker 01 In the hotel?
1:17:47 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
1:17:48 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:17:48 Speaker 02 Next day.
1:17:49 Speaker 01 And, and so you, you, you, uh, both left your mother's body in the house?
1:17:53 Speaker 02 Yep.
1:17:54 Speaker 01 Was, was there thoughts on, we're going to cover this up? Or the thought was, there was, there was no thought. It was?
1:18:00 Speaker 02 There was no thought.
1:18:01 Speaker 01 It, it was just?
1:18:02 Speaker 02 It was just live, live and, and every step was not planned. It was literally after it happened. It was run. Run to different states.
1:18:19 Speaker 02 Forget about it. It didn't exist.
1:18:21 Speaker 01 Okay, so you went to the hotel. Warded pizza. You're just.
1:18:26 Speaker 02 Chilling.
1:18:27 Speaker 01 Chilling, watching shows. Having a good time.
1:18:32 Speaker 01 And, and so then. Twenty-four hours, at a certain point, you post, or who posted, so one of the two of you posted, you posted. Okay, and what do you post?
1:18:43 Speaker 02 So, we were already back in Wisconsin at this time. That's where he lived.
1:18:47 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:18:48 Speaker 02 Um, and I logged into my mom's Facebook account. Because. I did not like the idea of her just being there. I felt very unsettled, very uncomfortable with it, like that level of remorse and just like, I want her found. She deserves a proper burial. So I want her found. So I log into her Facebook account. And I.
1:19:14 Speaker 02 Think back to what he said when he came in the house. The bitch is dead.
1:19:20 Speaker 02 So that's what I put. My mom hardly ever cussed, especially around people.
1:19:26 Speaker 02 So that's what I put to seem alarming, so. The authorities could go. And find her, and then she could be given a burial.
1:19:37 Speaker 01 What about, did you discuss that with Nick to post? Was that, or that was just you?
1:19:42 Speaker 02 I'm pretty sure that was just me.
1:19:44 Speaker 01 Okay, did it draw the authorities?
1:19:46 Speaker 02 It did.
1:19:47 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:19:49 Speaker 02 Ultimately, the goal that I wanted to have her found. Happened.
1:19:54 Speaker 01 Okay, so she's found by the police? All right. But then what happens to you and Nick?
1:20:01 Speaker 02 They think that I, um, was kidnapped. I was missing. So to the authorities, I was missing. Now also you have to understand that my brain was not. Functioning in a logical way because I went around the house before we left the scene. Taking down all the pictures of me thinking that. I would not exist if there would just be no pictures of me around the house.
1:20:29 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:20:30 Speaker 02 Didn't make sense at all.
1:20:33 Speaker 02 So.
1:20:35 Speaker 02 Days go by, they think I'm missing. Then all of a sudden they tracked the IP address to his house.
1:20:43 Speaker 01 Uh, from, from the post.
1:20:44 Speaker 02 From the post.
1:20:45 Speaker 01 That, that she made, interesting.
1:20:47 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:20:47 Speaker 01 Okay, right, because whoever posted that was aware of what happened.
1:20:51 Speaker 02 Exactly.
1:20:51 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:20:52 Speaker 02 I was not aware of technology that smart. Well, um. So they tracked the IP address and then the next morning, we wake up to the sound of a barking dog, which is what was actually the canine unit. Um, and two. Police squads surrounding the house in armored vehicles.
1:21:15 Speaker 01 Oh my goodness, okay.
1:21:16 Speaker 02 Um, and I told him, I was like. What do I say? Like, what do I say? What do I do? Um, and he said. You're gonna tell the police that your mom kicked you out. That you, that you were kicked out and your mom, um, got mad at you, so you left. And I came to pick you up. And you don't know what happened. Okay? So I went down first, I surrendered first. Put me in a cop car. Um, then. They asked me, once they had me in cuffs. Does he have any weapons? Does, you know, have any bombs or anything? And I'm like, no. Um, so they got him to come down.
1:21:59 Speaker 02 And they take him into custody in a separate car. And they bring us to the police station in separate cars.
1:22:05 Speaker 01 Okay, and then as you're headed to the police station, what are you thinking? Is it that?
1:22:13 Speaker 01 You've, you fooled them because you took the photos down and?
1:22:16 Speaker 02 I, I was honestly, um, terrified for Nick. I was terrified for him because I, at that point, I didn't think how, I didn't see how I can get in any trouble. Um. You know, I, I'm like. I just had a conversation with him. You know? So in my mind, I was definitely, um, downplaying my part.
1:22:40 Speaker 01 Okay, okay, so you thought you'd get to the station, he would then?
1:22:45 Speaker 02 He would be in trouble and I, I told him, I was like, we, I had stole money out of my mom's stave. Um, it was like five thousand, four thousand, five thousand dollars. And with that money, I was like, I'm gonna get you the best lawyer possible. We're talking like OJ Simpson, amazing lawyer. Um, because I had no concept of of money, you know, and how much things cost. So, you know, I'm still fully in love with Nick at this point.
1:23:15 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:23:16 Speaker 02 Um, wanting, I don't want him to be in in trouble. I wanna get him out of there. Um, and I'm not seeing the scope of how I'm in trouble too.
1:23:26 Speaker 01 Okay. When do you then realize you're in trouble too?
1:23:31 Speaker 02 Upon being charged with first degree murder.
1:23:37 Speaker 01 What goes through your mind when you hear that?
1:23:39 Speaker 02 Um, terrified.
1:23:44 Speaker 02 Terrified.
1:23:47 Speaker 01 Because that holds with it, is it life or is that?
1:23:53 Speaker 02 Life without parole.
1:23:54 Speaker 01 Life without parole. Okay, okay. So then you're immediately incarcerated.
1:24:01 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:24:01 Speaker 01 Okay, uh, and for what I understand is, and then you remain incarcerated. Until just a few years ago.
1:24:08 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:24:09 Speaker 01 Yeah. Walk me through the case because you made it clear to tell me right there. I was still in love with Nick.
1:24:17 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:24:19 Speaker 01 At what point do you fall out of love with Nick? Is it during the the case?
1:24:24 Speaker 02 It was, um, I think, uh, and I, I look back on this too, and I I feel like it was. You know, Nick had been the only one other than my mom that I was talking to for, you know, two plus years. So it was like the moment that I had any significant amount of time away from him. That's when I started to be able to think on my own and and and think about, is this relationship healthy? What is it that I love about him? Um, am I romanticizing the crime that we just committed? Um, as an act of of saving me? Or is there something more sinister that I didn't see before?
1:25:09 Speaker 01 Okay. And then during that time, uh, you're going through the court procedure.
1:25:14 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:25:16 Speaker 01 You're now off the opioids.
1:25:18 Speaker 02 Hmm, hmm.
1:25:21 Speaker 01 I know that you've reflected upon that murder.
1:25:25 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
1:25:26 Speaker 01 Multiple times, multiple times, multiple times.
1:25:30 Speaker 01 What's then your feeling towards your mother and what happened?
1:25:34 Speaker 02 I was so upset with family and with the media. Because we're only allowed one legacy in this life. You know, when someone passes away, all they have left is their name. And I was feeling regret and remorse about allowing the media to paint her as a villain. When I'm like, the thing is, is what if she's not a villain, but rather just a very sick woman that needed help?
1:26:16 Speaker 01 Okay, okay.
1:26:17 Speaker 02 So I started to feel a lot of guilt about that.
1:26:21 Speaker 02 And then upon getting to prison is when I started to feel
1:26:31 Speaker 02 the pain and the loss of, okay, I'm never gonna see her again. I'm never gonna be able to have this closure moment to ask her, well, you know, why this, why that? Would she forgive me?
1:26:48 Speaker 02 There's no closure on either side.
1:26:51 Speaker 01 Now, there were court proceedings for you. Uh, but there was a trial.
1:26:55 Speaker 02 There's a trial for him.
1:26:56 Speaker 01 For Nick. Why is that the case?
1:26:58 Speaker 02 Um, because I was offered a plea deal. So the prosecutor felt like there was enough evidence to, enough mitigating evidence to offer me a plea deal. To ten years in the Department of Corrections.
1:27:22 Speaker 02 Take it or leave it. So I took it.
1:27:26 Speaker 01 Okay. Now, I know that there was, and it's, this is right around the time when you hit my level of awareness, you know, my radar, because this case, or should I say, this moment was all over the news. It was everywhere. It was, it was headline news. And I recall there being two schools of thought around that plea deal for you. Or should I say, three schools of thought? One was, okay, that sounds about right. Another was, no way. She deserves life in sentence or worse, or a life in prison or worse.
1:28:09 Speaker 01 And another is none, she should get off completely, entirely, completely.
1:28:15 Speaker 01 When you reflect on a ten-year plea deal for your participation in murdering your mother,
1:28:24 Speaker 01 do you believe that was the correct sentence?
1:28:26 Speaker 02 No.
1:28:28 Speaker 01 You don't?
1:28:30 Speaker 02 I feel like if I would have spent the rest of my life in prison, that would have been fair for the crime that was committed.
1:28:39 Speaker 01 Oh, my goodness.
1:28:42 Speaker 01 Goodness. So then, you feel as if Nick was, was given the, the right sentence?
1:28:49 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:28:50 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:28:51 Speaker 02 I, I don't feel like, um, I don't feel like he should have, be free.
1:29:01 Speaker 02 But I do feel like he does need a lot of mental health therapy that needs to be done with him. And prison does not rehabilitate you to the best of their ability in the mental health space. They just don't.
1:29:18 Speaker 02 But yeah, if, if, if that would have been the outcome, that would have been fair for the crime that was committed. Now, do I also understand where the prosecution was coming from by offering me mercy? I do.
1:29:38 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:29:39 Speaker 02 So I'm appreciative for the second chance that I've been given. But I understand where people are coming from with feeling like the sentence didn't match the crime.
1:29:54 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. Well, that's profound. Um, for you to say that, very profound. Uh, were you aware of the medi- of the media attention? That this story got around the world, but namely in the United States?
1:30:11 Speaker 02 Not to the degree that it was. You hear little bits from other inmates and what their families tell them. But there is not a lot, especially in jail. You're not even allowed to watch, read your own articles. If you're, if they make a story and you're in it, they take it out, they rip it out.
1:30:32 Speaker 01 Oh, interesting, okay.
1:30:34 Speaker 02 So all of the papers had like these little cutouts and holes and everything. Because obviously it was such a big case, but I couldn't read any of it and I couldn't watch any of it. Anytime it would come on the news, the guards would turn off the TV. So I was so kept from it.
1:30:52 Speaker 01 That's interesting. So you only knew through other inmates, through the family and friends of the other inmates?
1:30:59 Speaker 02 They would talk to, yeah.
1:31:00 Speaker 01 They would talk to, and then they would tell you?
1:31:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:31:03 Speaker 01 And what were you hearing? What were they telling you?
1:31:05 Speaker 02 I mean, a range of different things, like, man, your case is really big, like, everybody's talking about it. Um, but, but other than that, that's it. And then I went to prison. And then obviously when the act came out, Hulu's The Act, that kind of blew up. Like, that was insane. I went from just being...
1:31:27 Speaker 02 Just a case to now being a TV character.
1:31:32 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:31:32 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
1:31:33 Speaker 01 Did you, well, while in prison, did you see the act?
1:31:36 Speaker 02 I did not, no. I heard about it because I was getting lots of fan mail and talking about it. And they would ask me questions and I didn't know what they were referring to because they had sort of like, they had a lot of tweaks and changes that never happened in my real life. So the things that they were referencing happened in the show.
1:31:57 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:31:58 Speaker 02 And I'm like, what are you talking about?
1:31:59 Speaker 01 Okay. But now, now, now, hold on, Gypsy. You said you received a lot of fan mail.
1:32:04 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
1:32:06 Speaker 01 At, what was, when was the first, or what was the first fan mail that you received? And how did you feel knowing that you received fan mail?
1:32:17 Speaker 02 So before the act came out, a documentary, the first documentary, was HBO's Mommy Dead and Dearest, directed by Aaron Lee Carr. And after that documentary, I was receiving a lot of mail. And it was supportive mail. I really don't like to say fan mail. But it was a lot of supportive mail from people all around the world that watched this documentary. And my story resonated with them for some reason. And...
1:32:48 Speaker 01 And I'm curious, in that, Gypsy, what were they writing to you? What were they saying?
1:32:52 Speaker 02 Telling me about their lives. A lot of them were very open to opening up about their own traumas.
1:32:59 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:33:00 Speaker 02 They felt like they could relate in some way or another. And it was, it was where I didn't feel so alone. Like, I started to realize that there was a lot more people out there that goes through some really hard stuff in their life. Um, and I was able to form friendships with these pen pals over time.
1:33:23 Speaker 01 All right, that's interesting, that's interesting. So, prison, though, is much different than your previous, you know, living situation.
1:33:33 Speaker 02 Very much.
1:33:33 Speaker 01 How, how did you adjust to prison, to living there?
1:33:37 Speaker 02 I adjusted quite well, I feel. Um, it was a new, more freedom than I had ever had in my life. And it's, it's crazy when people hear that from me, but it's the truth. In prison, I was able to, you know, find myself in a controlled environment. But I, I was able to make friends. Making friends is not easy, especially as an adult, but I was able to make choices for myself, discover who I am, discover what kind of music I like. Um, run around, go to the gym, go to school. I got my GED while I was in prison.
1:34:19 Speaker 01 So, I, and I, and I, um, I wanna say this delicately, but I'll just say it is, is that
1:34:27 Speaker 01 so initially, did you enjoy your time?
1:34:30 Speaker 02 I, I won't, I won't say that it's enjoy. I will say it's live in a, in a new way.
1:34:39 Speaker 01 Okay, so you enjoyed living.
1:34:41 Speaker 02 It was enjoyment in a new way. Um, because, yeah, it's, there was enjoyment, but at the same time, the sacrifice is the time that I missed from my family that wanted a relationship with me. You know, that's eight and a half years of me watching my sister grow up, go to prom, my, my brother get married, you know, all these life moments that now I cannot join with them in. Um, that I'm having to watch from afar. That is the punishment.
1:35:20 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:35:21 Speaker 02 Um, prison itself, I had a routine, I had a job. I didn't so much mind living there. If I had no family to go home to, prison probably wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world.
1:35:36 Speaker 01 Hmm, interesting. Yeah, and, and I also thinking that you never, you didn't have any friends.
1:35:43 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:35:44 Speaker 01 So, so your entire life.
1:35:48 Speaker 01 You haven't had any friends. You don't know how to navigate that. You haven't had experiences of people,
1:35:55 Speaker 01 you know, being your friend for ulterior reasons or not. So how did you navigate that in prison?
1:36:03 Speaker 02 I'm still navigating that to this day.
1:36:07 Speaker 02 But I will say, I was blessed to have two really good friends that I'm still friends with to this day. They are both currently still locked up.
1:36:19 Speaker 02 But there was never a time where I felt taken advantage of by them. And for me, that's big.
1:36:26 Speaker 01 Now, I also know in prison is where you met
1:36:33 Speaker 01 your previous husband.
1:36:34 Speaker 02 Yes, yes.
1:36:38 Speaker 01 So let's talk about that.
1:36:39 Speaker 02 Oh, God. Oh, God.
1:36:43 Speaker 01 First, how do you meet and marry someone while being in prison? How do you do that?
1:36:52 Speaker 02 Well, I had received a letter from a man that's local, like a Louisiana-born native. So I was like, oh, it's someone, you know, from my neck of the woods, you know, a Louisiana Cajun boy.
1:37:07 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:37:09 Speaker 02 So I wrote back and he seemed very sweet and we made friends. It's not like we got into a relationship right out the gate. But he made me laugh. He made me laugh and that was something that is needed sometimes in prison. Sometimes you just need someone to make you laugh.
1:37:33 Speaker 01 OK, all right, I see it, I see it. So now, how many men?
1:37:42 Speaker 01 Were supportive. Were writing you supportive letters.
1:37:47 Speaker 02 That I wrote back to, or no?
1:37:48 Speaker 01 Or not that you wrote back to, I'm just curious. What was the incoming like?
1:37:52 Speaker 02 I mean, the incoming, I was getting a mixed, you know, I would get hundreds of letters.
1:38:00 Speaker 01 In what time period, hundreds?
1:38:02 Speaker 02 And I mean, I would say in the months after a documentary or the act came out and it got to be where the prison no longer had physical mail. They have tablets now with its own email system.
1:38:19 Speaker 01 Oh, wow, okay.
1:38:20 Speaker 02 So the emails would come in through that certain system. And it was hundreds, you know, over the course of the next few months after the act came out.
1:38:31 Speaker 02 I mean, that's exactly how I met my current boyfriend. I mean, that's I met my current boyfriend before I met my ex-husband.
1:38:42 Speaker 01 Did you?
1:38:43 Speaker 02 Yes, so my current boyfriend, his name is Ken.
1:38:47 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:38:48 Speaker 02 He wrote me after watching Mommy Dead and Dearest.
1:38:51 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:38:52 Speaker 02 It was a supportive letter, not on any kind of romantic level. He gave me his work schedule. I gave him a call within five minutes of talking on the phone. I felt like we had known each other our whole lives, besties.
1:39:06 Speaker 01 Really, but all right, you have to help me on this. Because dating, this is a spot, an area that I know, but I don't know about prison dating.
1:39:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:39:14 Speaker 01 All right, so he sends you a letter. In the letter, he includes his schedule.
1:39:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, like, like work times, this is my phone number, this is when I work.
1:39:24 Speaker 01 So he's already then approaching you in a romantic way?
1:39:27 Speaker 02 No, I mean, that's just calls are calls, I mean, it's not like you can you know, do very much, but like calls is how you you know, talk to people, get to know people.
1:39:39 Speaker 01 Oh, so you're getting hundreds of supportive mail and email. But how many of those are people trying that you believe are trying to actively engage in a romantic relationship with you?
1:39:53 Speaker 02 I mean, I, I would say about like sixty percent of them. Um, I have my own thoughts on that.
1:40:01 Speaker 01 Yes, what, please, because I know that that is a fetish.
1:40:07 Speaker 02 It, okay, I have my thoughts.
1:40:09 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:40:10 Speaker 02 Um, my thought is that I didn't get a chance to watch the documentary until I was already out of prison. So upon watching the documentary, from what I kind of gather is, you know, watching my story and then kind of watching where I was at that time. I feel like men instinctually want to protect.
1:40:32 Speaker 01 Hmm.
1:40:34 Speaker 02 And then, I'm also a chronic flirt. So I can see how I can kind of go that route too. So, that's my thoughts.
1:40:44 Speaker 01 Okay, okay, alright. What was, in the early time in prison, what do you believe your self-esteem levels were?
1:40:54 Speaker 02 Very low.
1:40:55 Speaker 01 Very low.
1:40:56 Speaker 02 Very low.
1:40:56 Speaker 01 Okay, alright, so,
1:41:00 Speaker 01 it must have been a thrill then, to get this, this supportive male.
1:41:05 Speaker 02 Oh, of course.
1:41:06 Speaker 01 It's validation, it's external validation.
1:41:09 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
1:41:10 Speaker 01 Right, that I can also see it's very hard then to discern, who to respond to. So, you're, you're, you have a ongoing relationship or messaging back and forth with Ken. But then also, so then how does Ryan come into play?
1:41:28 Speaker 02 Ryan, okay, so Ken and I dated and my, my parents, you know, he got to meet my parents, we got engaged. After two years, we got engaged.
1:41:37 Speaker 01 Oh my goodness, okay.
1:41:38 Speaker 02 They made E-News, it was all over the news, it was all over every media tabloid. Um, and he left me.
1:41:47 Speaker 01 Ken did?
1:41:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, he dumped me. Um, in October, it was the day after his birthday, same year we got engaged. Um, he left me and broke my heart. When I tell you, we still sometimes have arguments about him, you know, I say abandoning. Because that, you know, prison was the time that I needed someone. I needed support, I needed someone to ride or die with me through the thick and the thin of it, you know? And I felt like he was gonna be that one. And.
1:42:25 Speaker 02 For him to turn off all emotion. And not answer my calls and then go on to get into another relationship. He got with another girl, literally two months after leaving me. Um. And went on to have a four and a half year relationship with that woman.
1:42:48 Speaker 02 And so also twenty twenty was the year of covid. So Ryan wrote me during covid. After watching the documentary and unfortunately his, his was a lot different than Ken's though.
1:43:05 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:43:05 Speaker 02 Ken, a friend of his named Diane had watched my documentary first and was like, hey, you gotta watch this documentary. It's so good. And they watched it together. Whereas Ryan watched it. Then was at work having a conversation with a coworker. The coworker said, yeah, I've been watching a lot of thing about Tiger King. Um. And then Ryan was like, well, if you write Tiger King, I'll write Gypsy Rose Blanchard. And then it was on a dare. Okay. And at the time I was like, okay, it's whatever. It's whatever. Um. So.
1:43:48 Speaker 02 Twenty twenty was a very lonely year for me. And. He made me laugh and there were many times that I felt like I was not physically attracted to him. But. I was getting emotional comfort.
1:44:08 Speaker 02 So much so that, you know, when he was like, I want to get married, like there were several times I told him, I'm like, I just think of you like a brother or like I think of you like cuddle buddy, you know, um. But he was always just has to be romantic, has to be romantic, has to be romantic. Um. And then later, you know, the, the prison emails between us back and forth were released to the public.
1:44:38 Speaker 01 Oh, my goodness.
1:44:39 Speaker 02 And people could see how he was so aggressive at wanting the relationship or nothing.
1:44:46 Speaker 02 And so essentially, I married him for the wrong reasons. I was like, I I felt like I settled. I felt like if I couldn't have Ken,
1:44:58 Speaker 02 I didn't want to die alone.
1:45:01 Speaker 02 And I wanted to at least prove to myself that I could maybe move past my heartbreak with Ken and go on to marry someone and and be okay with just that.
1:45:13 Speaker 02 And I wasn't. We we were married for like a year and a half.
1:45:17 Speaker 01 And and even the the marriage, so the marriage, the the the actual wedding ceremony, it must have taken place in prison.
1:45:24 Speaker 02 It did, in the visitation room by the bathroom.
1:45:28 Speaker 01 Wow, okay, romantic.
1:45:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, so romantic.
1:45:30 Speaker 01 Yes, and and who who then attends your your wedding?
1:45:35 Speaker 02 My, the only person that attended was um my my friend, the OG friend. Um, and my parents couldn't come, I think, because like the COVID stuff was still going on. So there was so much limiting how much interaction, how many people could come visit at one time, I think, so. Um, it was just my friend and that's it.
1:45:56 Speaker 01 Sue, I I have to ask this too is by this time, you had served how many years in prison?
1:46:02 Speaker 02 Seven, seven and a half.
1:46:05 Speaker 01 Okay, seven and a half. Okay, you had served seven and a half years and you felt as if you had only a few more years left. Um, because you didn't know if you'd be released early.
1:46:15 Speaker 02 Right.
1:46:16 Speaker 01 Or or not.
1:46:17 Speaker 02 I had my parole hearing in December of twenty twenty one.
1:46:21 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:46:22 Speaker 02 And so I knew when I would be going home. I knew my release date.
1:46:26 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:46:26 Speaker 02 At that time.
1:46:26 Speaker 01 So so you knew you were within a year.
1:46:28 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
1:46:29 Speaker 01 So so then gypsy.
1:46:30 Speaker 02 Why, why do it?
1:46:33 Speaker 01 Why? Do it?
1:46:36 Speaker 02 Okay, well, because I was not paroling to the state of Missouri. I was paroling to the state of Louisiana. I had to enter into something called an interstate compact. So what that means is you can parole to a spouse or a family member, but you cannot parole to a boyfriend. So I could have paroled to my family. I had that option before I met Ryan. That was my plan and then I met Ryan and then of course I wanted to live with my boyfriend who had been waiting a few years for me.
1:47:13 Speaker 02 So you know, I just I struggled with do I go live with my family or do I go live with a partner that has been waiting for me? You know, um, and so that was the benefit of why then?
1:47:28 Speaker 01 Okay, I see it.
1:47:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:47:30 Speaker 01 I see it. So what in the world happens? How do you two break up?
1:47:36 Speaker 02 Well, I I get released. I get released and um. I go home with him. We had an apartment in Lake Charles. And. I'm not going to say that I was unhappy. I was not unhappy. Um, we had taken a like a a trip to New York. Um, because we were filming a reality TV show essentially. Um.
1:48:06 Speaker 01 Essentially, or you were?
1:48:08 Speaker 02 We were like, you know, it started a few days before I got out. The re the the Gypsy Rose Life After Lockup series. And so we are. Navigating filming this show about my life. Present day. And so that adds such an element of of stress to it. I mean, it was a wonderful show. I'm I'm appreciative for the, you know, opportunity to go ahead and do it. But it was a level of stress too. Because it's cameras all in your face. I mean, the very first night that I got out. There's cameras in the bedroom with me and Ryan.
1:48:48 Speaker 02 And it's freaking me out because it's like my eyes were even trying to adjust to the color. Because in prison, everything is so beige, so you know, gray. It's colorless, pretty much. And out in the real world, there's so many vibrant colors. So like, I'm adjusting to seeing colors. And the last thing I want to do is be on a camera while my husband is trying to get groovy, like.
1:49:16 Speaker 01 Right, right.
1:49:17 Speaker 02 This is not what I want to be doing right now.
1:49:19 Speaker 01 Right, right, right, but, but this is, this is what's happening.
1:49:23 Speaker 02 This is what's happening.
1:49:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, oh my gosh, so what then happens, I mean?
1:49:29 Speaker 02 I mean, the cameras left, so I mean, they didn't get any sort of intimate anything. Um, we consummated our marriage that night upon release. Um, I mean, there was like this whole thing called the Diaz fire and it was, um. I feel terrible for even saying this, but, um, Ryan was like, please, whatever you do, don't embarrass me. Don't embarrass me. So I was like, I got you, I got you, don't worry, no matter what, it's like, I got you. You know?
1:50:01 Speaker 01 So this is, so this is your commentary on your first night together?
1:50:05 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:50:06 Speaker 01 Sexually?
1:50:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:50:07 Speaker 01 And you said that?
1:50:09 Speaker 02 I mean, I'm not gonna say it was, it was terrible, now I've had better, but.
1:50:14 Speaker 01 So relatively speaking?
1:50:15 Speaker 02 Relatively speaking.
1:50:16 Speaker 01 It was, it was not?
1:50:17 Speaker 02 It was mid.
1:50:18 Speaker 01 It was, it was mid, it was mid, as the kids say, yeah. So, so now, I have to ask this is, was that, so you were, how old at this point?
1:50:28 Speaker 02 Uh, thirty-two.
1:50:29 Speaker 01 You're thirty-two?
1:50:30 Speaker 02 Thirty-two.
1:50:31 Speaker 01 What I find interesting is, is you were in your teens, you know, you, I could see that you were trying to, um, you know, go through puberty, like so many of us, you want to have a romantic relationship, right? You want to explore sex. You attempted.
1:50:53 Speaker 01 Were unsuccessful at consensual sex.
1:50:56 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:50:58 Speaker 01 Was that your first time having consensual sex?
1:51:02 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:51:02 Speaker 01 At thirty-two?
1:51:03 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:51:04 Speaker 01 So that experience, what is that experience like for you?
1:51:08 Speaker 02 It's hard because I wasn't comfortable in my own skin and I wasn't comfortable.
1:51:14 Speaker 02 I mean, I hadn't had a lot of therapy, therapy, like one-on-one therapy to work on the trauma that I had experienced. So, you know, unfortunately, and I told Ryan this too, I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm really sorry, but I just, you know, I feel like I have not gotten to a point where I could enjoy myself. Because I'm too busy thinking about the past.
1:51:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:51:38 Speaker 02 And I'm just not there yet.
1:51:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, and this makes sense, you know, to me, knowing that
1:51:47 Speaker 01 you were, you know, your ex, we'll call him your ex, that he's going to do life in prison. Knowing that your mother is no longer here and you played a role in her no longer being here. How do you feel leaving prison early?
1:52:06 Speaker 02 Leaving prison early, I mean, I couldn't, I'm gonna be honest, I couldn't think of anything other than my own, my own happiness.
1:52:15 Speaker 02 At the time.
1:52:16 Speaker 01 Okay, that's fair, that's fair. And can we acknowledge that you are a public figure? You know, you are a celebrity.
1:52:25 Speaker 02 I hate that word.
1:52:26 Speaker 01 Okay, you're a public figure, I'll go a public figure. You are well-known, you are well-recognized. Perhaps having one of the most recognizable childhoods of any, you know, American.
1:52:43 Speaker 01 How do you deal with the attention right when you get out? Because one thing that I was quite shocked at was how many people came to your support. It felt like, you know, if you look at your social media, for example, you were very quickly followed by millions of people. I mean, how does that feel?
1:53:10 Speaker 02 I was not expecting it, and I was not ready for it.
1:53:16 Speaker 02 When family and friends said, "We're gonna need to protect our girl, 'cause she doesn't know what she's coming out to." I was expecting hate. I was expecting, you know, I was gonna be hated like Hacey Anthony is hated. But it was the opposite.
1:53:37 Speaker 02 Like you said, I gained millions of followers, which my brain couldn't even wrap my head around, what nine million followers on TikTok and nine million followers on Instagram even is.
1:53:50 Speaker 02 And then going just to Walmart, going to the grocery store, going to a mall, having people run up to you and wanna take a selfie with you and things like this. None of that I was prepared for. And so, yes, it was flattering, but at the same time, I also had people that I have weird reactions to, because it's like some people are like, "I would've did exactly what you did." And I'm just like, "Please don't."
1:54:19 Speaker 02 I'm not trying to be out here advocating for murder. This is not how you become famous. This is the result of what happens when tragedy meets tragedy meets tragedy again and again and again, and the system fails, and people get hurt. There's so many more stories.
1:54:46 Speaker 02 That of of childhood abuse that don't get talked about. But the only ones that we want to recognize are the ones that a Lifetime series and a Netflix show and HBO show and worldwide attention is thrust upon. Why don't not take some of that spotlight and give it to all the victims? Because I'm not the face of Munchausen by proxy. I never wanted to be, never claimed to be. This is my life.
1:55:18 Speaker 02 Y'all made me this. I didn't.
1:55:22 Speaker 01 Yeah. Powerful. It's powerful. I I I could see that that in particular, that that this is uh an area that now it it's, you know, it's it's interesting. It's been given to you. Uh you didn't ask for this. But this this this platform, if you will, has has has been handed to you. You know, um and I can see that you acknowledge that. So coming out of then prison, you have this attention. But you're still married. Then you have the television show, right? I'm also curious, though, about how you begin to adjust to life.
1:56:06 Speaker 01 Because from what I understand, this is your first time now living life in your thirties.
1:56:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:56:14 Speaker 01 It's your first time walking down a street without having
1:56:21 Speaker 02 My mom.
1:56:22 Speaker 01 Your mom.
1:56:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, or a prison guard.
1:56:24 Speaker 01 Or a prison guard.
1:56:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:56:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, this is your first time, what, turning on a television?
1:56:28 Speaker 02 And just be like, I would have watched this show, you know?
1:56:31 Speaker 01 Your first time interacting with people. You know, wha- what was that like?
1:56:40 Speaker 02 It it felt so freeing and and everything was trial and error. Everything.
1:56:45 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:56:45 Speaker 02 Um. You know, learning learning how to cook, learning how to do this and learning how to do that. Like, at at the time I got out, I didn't know how to drive. Like, I didn't have a driver's license. I never drove a car before. So this is all stuff, I felt like I was learning how to be.
1:57:06 Speaker 02 Going through a teen year, a twenties, and now landing in thirties and supposed to be exactly where I'm supposed to be. And people watched me go through
1:57:20 Speaker 02 um many different fails, many different challenges. People have often said like, tell me to act my age. I tell them, can you give me the twenty-three years that I was with my mom? Or the eight and a half years I was in prison and got to miss out on all this? So please do give me another thirty-two to catch up.
1:57:44 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:57:44 Speaker 02 You know?
1:57:45 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:57:46 Speaker 02 I'm making decisions on my own and trying to figure out what's right. And I'm doing it in front of the world.
1:57:55 Speaker 01 Yes, yes. So you feel the pressure?
1:57:58 Speaker 02 Yes. Blame you all you want of making stupid life decisions that a teen would make, but
1:58:06 Speaker 01 But so, but you feel like that there's?
1:58:08 Speaker 02 There's nothing that I have done that would feel like someone could justify saying that I'm a bad person.
1:58:20 Speaker 02 Not in that way.
1:58:21 Speaker 01 But, but yet, do you, do you hear that? You hear those statements?
1:58:26 Speaker 02 Oh yeah, I hear those statements all the time.
1:58:27 Speaker 01 And, and I mean, what are they? What are those statements and, and who's saying them?
1:58:34 Speaker 02 I mean, it's, it's just mostly online trolls. Um, they might be usernames seven, eight, nine, ten. Um, but you, you don't know if it's bots or if it's people with actual opinions, but opinions, everybody has one. And, you know, all that I have done in my life, um, since out of prison is learn who I am. And like I say, I'm not perfect, but whatever it is, whether it be I had my daughter out of wedlock, I divorced my ex-husband. They throw that in my face like I, that, that's a crime.
1:59:16 Speaker 02 And I'm like, if you would realize there are much.
1:59:21 Speaker 02 That's not the worst thing, okay?
1:59:24 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:59:24 Speaker 02 Be thankful that the little stupid shit is just all I'm doing.
1:59:29 Speaker 01 Yes, yes, yes. So you decided to divorce Ryan?
1:59:36 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
1:59:37 Speaker 01 Was it in order to have a relationship with Ken? You knew you were going to have one? Or it was the chance at having a relationship with Ken?
1:59:46 Speaker 02 It was the chance.
1:59:49 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:59:50 Speaker 02 It was not a guaranteed thing at first.
1:59:53 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:59:54 Speaker 02 So, um, I started to drop those hints to Ryan. And then one night, um, it was actually on, it was actually on Valentine's Day of 2024.
2:00:05 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:00:06 Speaker 02 And I, I woke him up that day. And instead of being like, I love you, honey. I, I woke him up telling him how I had a dream about Ken and I missed Ken.
2:00:16 Speaker 02 And so I was always very brutally honest. I was like, I wasn't meaning to hurt his feelings, but I'm kind of like, this is where I'm at with it. Can we have a conversation about it?
2:00:26 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:00:27 Speaker 02 Um, so nothing was ever kept from him in the dark. He was not blindsided about how I felt about Ken. He, he knew. Um, and so.
2:00:40 Speaker 02 One night I had put a note by his bed and I said, I'm so sorry. You know, here's the ring back.
2:00:49 Speaker 02 So he came home, he saw that, he crumpled it up, threw it. Kind of cried or whatever in the room for a little bit while I posted up in this separate bedroom. And then an argument had happened. And in this argument, he's yelling at me. And he is standing by the bedroom door. And he opens it up really quickly as I'm like, can we just have a conversation about this? And he opens it up a little too quickly and steps forward a little faster than I'm used to. And it triggered me. Now, did, is he a violent person? No. Would he ever hurt me?
2:01:34 Speaker 02 I don't feel like he would. But in that moment, I felt triggered. And so I call my sister.
2:01:44 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:01:44 Speaker 02 And I'm like, Ryan and I are arguing, like, I felt like he came at me.
2:01:52 Speaker 02 Can you please come pick me up? So my sister comes pick me up. I spent a few days with her. And then I go to my stepmom and dad's house and I filed for divorce. Um, a friend, a, a family acquaintance unfortunately talked to the media. And proceeded to tell TMZ that Ryan threatened me, that he was abusive. I never said Ryan was abusive.
2:02:25 Speaker 02 I said he came at me and was in my face yelling, which he was. But is he an abuser? No. So I, I wanted to clear, clarify that up. Like, I never claimed Ryan was abusive.
2:02:41 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. Uh, you were only triggered.
2:02:45 Speaker 02 I was triggered. I had not had a lot of therapy, if any, at that point.
2:02:50 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:02:51 Speaker 02 And so I had not dealt with certain situations, like yelling, arguments, stuff like that. Again, I had been in prison and my defense is like, okay, I'm gonna leave this situation.
2:03:03 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:03:04 Speaker 02 I'm gonna, if, if there, if anything pops off that I don't like, I'm leaving. I didn't leave before, but I sure as fuck will now.
2:03:11 Speaker 01 Yes. Didn't you file a temporary, it was temporary, but a restraining order against Ryan?
2:03:16 Speaker 02 That was not, it was not a restraining order in that way.
2:03:19 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:03:19 Speaker 02 So I, my lawyer, divorce attorney handled everything. Um, she took care of it all. I made no requests. She's like, we're gonna do this, this, this, and this. Okay? I didn't understand any of it. I was like, okay, whatever you feel is best is best. The restraining order pertained to our finances. The restraining order basically said, you can't touch the money that's in the joint checking account without it being for things like necessities. You can't go out and buy a car. So it just put a halt to our finances.
2:03:57 Speaker 01 Okay, and this makes sense to me as well because. I would imagine, given the volume of television shows that were out about you and the interest, that there was probably a significant amount of money made in that period of time, and you were married. So now it becomes this.
2:04:18 Speaker 02 Now it's our money.
2:04:19 Speaker 01 It's our, it's a joint asset.
2:04:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:04:23 Speaker 01 So was that the main challenge with the divorce was then how do you split that and unravel that?
2:04:30 Speaker 02 Um, we actually, my lawyer said that I could get fifty, you know, half and half.
2:04:39 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:04:40 Speaker 02 So we have to half it. Whatever was in the joint checking at the time, we have to have to.
2:04:45 Speaker 01 Okay. Even though, I mean, quite honestly, it seems like the money was generated because of you.
2:04:52 Speaker 02 I mean, there was probably only about forty thousand that was in that account at the time.
2:04:57 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:04:58 Speaker 02 Um, because the show money came in like so many months. It didn't come in one chunk.
2:05:06 Speaker 01 Okay, okay.
2:05:07 Speaker 02 So by the time that all of the show money came in, I had already moved banks, had my own bank.
2:05:15 Speaker 01 Okay, fair enough. So then you two split.
2:05:20 Speaker 02 The chance of me and Ken getting back together, I wasn't sure. It wasn't a for sure thing. I wanted to at least see him. We hadn't seen each other in four and a half, five years. So I wanted to see, am I, am I crazy? Or do, you know, do we still have this like spark?
2:05:38 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:05:39 Speaker 02 So he came to visit me at my parents' house. Comes, we meet up, we decide we're gonna get a hotel in New Orleans and we're gonna go do an airboat tour. We're gonna go do a, you know, whole New Orleans day trip.
2:05:55 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:05:56 Speaker 02 And the, the level, when I tell you, I don't know how to ever explain the love and happiness that I felt. I hope that everybody in the world gets to experience that feeling of happiness and just in love everywhere.
2:06:20 Speaker 02 It was amazing. And I knew, I just knew, I'm like, this, I'm in love. This is it, and I know what I have to do.
2:06:29 Speaker 01 Yes, and then you said then a month late, so then you're together then for a month?
2:06:33 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
2:06:33 Speaker 01 And then a month after that?
2:06:36 Speaker 02 I got, I got pregnant. We had got, we had got back together, like the, we had had a weekend of having that New Orleans weekend, had a great time. He comes back, um, a month later. And that's when I got pregnant. And then I find out a month later that I was pregnant.
2:06:58 Speaker 01 Wow.
2:06:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:06:59 Speaker 01 I'd like to show you a photo.
2:07:01 Speaker 02 Okay.
2:07:02 Speaker 01 Ready?
2:07:02 Speaker 02 Oh, boy.
2:07:03 Speaker 01 Okay. Now, you ready for this?
2:07:05 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:07:06 Speaker 01 What is happening in this photo, who are you with?
2:07:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, so this is the day that my daughter was born.
2:07:17 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:07:18 Speaker 02 Um, so this is Ken, and this is our baby girl Aurora.
2:07:23 Speaker 01 All right.
2:07:24 Speaker 02 This photo was taken one year after I got out.
2:07:31 Speaker 01 Really?
2:07:32 Speaker 02 She was born on December twenty eighth of twenty twenty four.
2:07:36 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:07:37 Speaker 02 I got out, December twenty eighth of twenty twenty three.
2:07:44 Speaker 01 You could not have planned that. I mean, that, that is incredible. I did not know that it was one year.
2:07:49 Speaker 02 One year.
2:07:50 Speaker 01 To the day.
2:07:51 Speaker 02 Yes.
2:07:51 Speaker 01 So this, this is your purpose?
2:07:53 Speaker 02 This is my purpose, yeah.
2:07:55 Speaker 01 To, to be a mommy?
2:07:57 Speaker 02 I think it is. I mean, I think it's, um, it's healing. Of course, when I knew I was, when I found out I was pregnant, a lot of people were like, you know, how do you feel becoming a mom? Um, not having a great, a great mom yourself? And of course, it's like, I can, I can say this and that in an interview, thinking, okay, well, maybe this is my, how I might feel. But it wasn't until I had had her, she was two weeks old. I was rocking in the recliner, and I looked at her, and there was just something that hit me. It felt. Like I was going through
2:08:39 Speaker 02 trauma all over again by by thinking to myself, how can a parent ever hurt or cause any harm to their child or any child? And I just started to cry and I held her
2:08:59 Speaker 02 I'm gonna lose, sorry. I'm sorry.
2:09:05 Speaker 02 I held her close and I was like, I love you. I love you so much and mommy's never gonna let anything happen to you. Because of my, in my heart, I felt like I was hugging a baby me.
2:09:24 Speaker 02 I just felt like I wanted to love her.
2:09:31 Speaker 02 Like I wasn't.
2:09:34 Speaker 02 And I wanted to give her everything that I wasn't.
2:09:40 Speaker 02 And it just hurt and it felt good at the same time.
2:09:46 Speaker 02 I'm sorry.
2:09:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:09:49 Speaker 01 I tell you what, you you'd never have to apologize for allowing us all, you know, to see you um in your emotion.
2:10:04 Speaker 01 That's all you wanted.
2:10:07 Speaker 01 That's all you wanted as a little girl was to feel loved, was to feel safe. And isn't it so interesting what life gives you?
2:10:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:10:19 Speaker 01 Right? And now here, you're in a moment where you're going, you didn't receive it, but you're going to be able to give it.
2:10:29 Speaker 02 Yep. And it also gives like my dad a second chance too, because you know, my dad didn't get a chance to be around in my life as much as he wanted. And so now watching my dad be a part of her life too is also very healing too.
2:10:51 Speaker 01 Yes, yes. Look at that, that relationship with your father now.
2:10:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:10:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:10:58 Speaker 01 Yeah. When you, Gypsy, think about the the future, you know, the the next chapter, right?
2:11:07 Speaker 01 What are your dreams?
2:11:09 Speaker 02 Um, you know, there's, there's my professional life and then there's my personal life. And my personal life, I want to have another child.
2:11:21 Speaker 02 Get married, you know, buy a house. And then in their professional space, I personally am starting my own podcast.
2:11:30 Speaker 01 There you go.
2:11:31 Speaker 02 And so this podcast is going to be conversations, real conversations like this that you're having with me. Um, about people who have gone through trauma, but also have been defined by the worst moments in their life. And it's a redemption of how do they get from there to where they want to be. It's a real one-on-one conversation and it's not just celebrities. We're talking average people. We're talking celebrities. We're talking anybody. Because everybody has had trauma. Everybody has had something happen to them.
2:12:17 Speaker 02 And no trauma is greater than anyone else's trauma. Trauma's trauma. And it is so therapeutic to talk about it with someone, especially when that someone has gone through trauma themselves.
2:12:29 Speaker 01 Yes, yes, I'm with you. I I think more conversation needs to be had so that we can normalize the fact that trauma is an experience that we all go through. And to your point is is that, and then you can come out on the other side.
2:12:45 Speaker 02 Exactly.
2:12:46 Speaker 01 Right, you can heal.
2:12:48 Speaker 02 Heal from.
2:12:48 Speaker 01 And I, and I think, uh, given the platform that that's been thrust upon you. That's probably one of the best ways to um, to to use it.
2:12:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, the best basis.
2:12:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, there is something I like to to end on. There's a question that everyone gets, but before that I have one last thing that I want to show you. Are you ready for this?
2:13:05 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:13:05 Speaker 01 All right, get ready. Here it comes. All right, so now, this is my favorite photo of the entire batch.
2:13:13 Speaker 02 Okay.
2:13:14 Speaker 01 I want you to tell me who's in this photo. Okay, and then I have a question for you about this photo. Ready?
2:13:24 Speaker 02 Oh, that's me.
2:13:26 Speaker 01 Look at, look at you.
2:13:29 Speaker 02 That's me.
2:13:30 Speaker 01 Yes. Do you know roughly how old you are in this?
2:13:33 Speaker 02 Oh goodness, maybe, maybe two?
2:13:38 Speaker 01 Okay, yes. So this is young you. This is a very, very young you. All right. This is you
2:13:49 Speaker 01 in what I'm sure you would consider to be good times. Okay. So what I'd love for you to do is tell me what you would like to tell her.
2:14:08 Speaker 02 I would tell her that
2:14:12 Speaker 02 she's loved.
2:14:17 Speaker 02 And that life is gonna be hard. Life is gonna be really hard, but
2:14:24 Speaker 02 do not give up.
2:14:27 Speaker 02 Because your daddy loves you.
2:14:31 Speaker 02 Your daddy loves you a lot. And so does Auntie Christie. And you, your brother and your sister, they love you very much. And someday, a little girl is gonna love you.
2:14:48 Speaker 02 You're gonna mean everything to her and everything, everything you wanted in life is gonna happen for you. But you're gonna have to be strong. You're gonna have to be very, very strong.
2:15:06 Speaker 01 You know what? She was.
2:15:12 Speaker 01 She was.
2:15:14 Speaker 02 You're making me cry.
2:15:18 Speaker 01 No, you know what? What I love, what I have loved about it, and I'll hold on to that. I love, I think it's such a beautiful photo. I love it.
2:15:30 Speaker 01 Very stylish, by the way. Those overalls.
2:15:33 Speaker 02 Those overalls.
2:15:33 Speaker 01 Do you know, I wear overalls to this, to this day.
2:15:36 Speaker 02 Really?
2:15:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, I've, actually, I think I have your entire outfit.
2:15:39 Speaker 02 Oh, my goodness.
2:15:41 Speaker 01 I think I have that. What I have, I think, appreciated most from you in this conversation is I feel like there's been a sense of vulnerability and openness and light, right? To you in this conversation, I've just, that I've loved, right? Your level of reflection will stay with me. This is going to be, this is, hands down, it's one of the most memorable conversations that I've had, been doing this, this podcast for the last two years. You've exceeded my expectation in terms of
2:16:27 Speaker 01 your
2:16:31 Speaker 01 your transparency in, in, in the story, you know? And I wish you all, all of the most amazing, amazing things that this life
2:16:47 Speaker 02 Thank you.
2:16:48 Speaker 01 can, can, can, can give you.
2:16:50 Speaker 02 Thank you.
2:16:51 Speaker 01 And, and most importantly is I wish you the ability to give yourself beyond grace, but forgiveness.
2:16:59 Speaker 02 I'll work on it.
2:17:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:17:01 Speaker 02 I'll work on it.
2:17:03 Speaker 01 There is a final question
2:17:05 Speaker 02 Okay.
2:17:06 Speaker 01 that everyone gets, and that question is this. Gypsy, you've had some phenomenal conversations
2:17:15 Speaker 02 Yes.
2:17:15 Speaker 01 in your life.
2:17:16 Speaker 02 Yes.
2:17:17 Speaker 01 When you think about the most memorable conversation, who was it with? And what did you learn?
2:17:28 Speaker 02 Would it be too cheesy to say you?
2:17:33 Speaker 01 It wouldn't be.
2:17:35 Speaker 02 Um, okay, so this has to be a really good conversation. In all the times that I have done interviews, I have never had anyone really listen to me. Um, until now. And give me the freedom to share whatever I wanted to. Um, so thank you for that.
2:18:02 Speaker 01 You are welcome. You're welcome. I wish you the best in your advocacy work. Um, there are millions of people who adore you, right? Um, and now, having met you, I understand why.
2:18:20 Speaker 02 You're gonna have to come on my podcast.
2:18:22 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. I'm there. We can unpack my trauma.
2:18:25 Speaker 02 Yay.
2:18:26 Speaker 01 I'm from New York. I have a lot of trauma.
2:18:28 Speaker 02 Okay. We look forward to it. We're gonna talk.
2:18:33 Speaker 01 We do need to talk.
2:18:37 Speaker 01 Gypsy Rose Blanchard. I've never, never had a conversation like that, ever. And I think this conversation is going to surprise quite, quite a large number of people.
2:18:55 Speaker 01 The, the constant theme to me is the desire for love. And it just goes to show how this is a core human need. And you see the consequence of that. This is the reason why healing from trauma is so important. Because you can see what happens if you go through trauma, you see and behave differently. Mental health needs to be paramount in terms of our responsibility. Um, as. Family members, friends, colleagues. Mental health is everything. What's up, good people? If you've made it this far, let me tell you, I appreciate you.
2:19:37 Speaker 01 You are truly part of this community and you like long episodes. But quite honestly, this doesn't go unnoticed. Now, if you haven't already, I want you to hit subscribe. It's right here. And if you've really enjoyed this conversation, I know you're gonna love this one.
2:20:03 Speaker 00 Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.
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