Dr Terry Dubrow on Botched, Ozempic And Plastic Surgery “They Put Concrete In Her Face!”

Star of Botched and The Swan, Dr Terry Dubrow became one of reality TV’s most recognisable surgeons, but this conversation reveals what was really happening behind the shows that made him famous. Terry looks back at the shows that made him famous, from the backlash surrounding The Swan and Bridalplasty to why he initially thought Botched was a terrible idea. He reflects on what producers pushed for behind the scenes, the moments he refused to cross a line with patients, and why surgical training can create the confidence - and “God complex” - needed to make life-or-death decisions. He also confronts the darker side of cosmetic surgery, from dangerous BBLs and medical tourism to the rise of “looksmaxxing”. Terry revisits the patient no surgeon would touch after concrete-like material was injected into her face, and the operation he created after 11 other surgeons had refused to help her. He also explores how Ozempic, GLP-1s and rapid weight loss are changing the face of cosmetic medicine. Away from surgery, Terry opens up about fame, family, staying strong at 67, and the extraordinary story of forging Heather Dubrow’s signature to get her onto The Real Housewives of Orange County. Funny, provocative and unexpectedly personal, this is Dr Terry Dubrow beyond Botched. Dr Terry Dubrow, We Need To Talk Follow us here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Sign up to our newsletter https://linkly.link/2eXHX Follow Dr Terry here: https://www.instagram.com/drdubrow (00:00) Intro (02:20) Paul And Dr Terry Discuss PK (04:24) How Dr Terry Stays Fit At 67 (09:03) Why Dr Terry Became a Cosmetic Surgeon (16:07) Dr Terry on The Swan and Its Controversy (24:46) Why The Swan Was Cancelled (27:02) Inside The Controversial Bridalplasty TV Show (36:06) Anthropic Ad (37:27) How Dr Terry Joined Real Housewives (41:59) How Botched Became A Hit (46:53) The Patient No Surgeon Would Touch (51:49) Rajee's Message To Dr Terry (56:50) Why BBLs Can Be Deadly (01:01:19) The Dangers Of Medical Tourism (01:04:33) Dr Terry Gives Paul Breast Implants (01:07:36) How Beauty Trends Change Surgery (01:12:12) Dr Terry On GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs (01:24:27) Why Looksmaxxing Is Dangerous (01:30:39) Inside Dr Terry's Marriage (01:33:18) What Fatherhood Taught Dr Terry (01:37:32) Dr Terry Reads Heather's Letter (01:41:11) Dr Terry's Most Memorable Conversation (01:43:21) Paul's Biggest Takeaways Sponsored by: Anthropic - https://www.claude.ai/talk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:00Speaker 03

  So I say to my wife, uh, what do you think about Real Housewives: The Orange County? She goes, I'm never doing that cheesy housewife show, ever. So I apply for, and I don't tell her. I sign it and I fax it back. Really? Yeah. So you forged her signature? Totally. This is so scandalous.

• 1:15Speaker 04

  You were either drunk, or stupid, or both for doing that. Please welcome Dr. Dubrow.

• 1:22Speaker 03

  I got a TV show, the worst reality show of all time. A team of cosmetic and plastic surgeons will turn these 17 ugly ducklings into drop-dead beauties. Joy Behar turns to the camera and goes, "And Dr. Dubrow, you should be ashamed of yourself." And I went, "Oh." I guess I always felt, this is really wrong, I'm just gonna say it. We have to talk about this case. That's my most significant case. Really? Ever. This woman was injected with literal concrete from a hardware store as filler. She says to me, "I can't go anywhere. Kids see me and immediately scream, point."

• 2:04Speaker 03

  I would imagine the work that we do. It then changes her life. So I have to ask the looks-maxing GLP-1s and Ozempic. I'm being honest now.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  We released our very first episode of We Need to Talk two years ago today. I wanted to create a space for honest conversations and hear the experiences that have shaped them and the stories we don't always get to hear behind the headlines. Hundreds of conversations and millions of you later, that's exactly what we're trying to do. So thank you for being here. Thank you for showing up every week, for sharing these conversations with your friends, for being part of this community. And trust me, I read every single one of your comments, so thank you for them. And if you love what we're doing here, please hit follow. It's completely free and it genuinely makes a huge difference to the show and it helps us reach even more people. And as always, let me know what you think in the comments.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  Nothing's off limits. Okay. I mean, when you're a husband on The Real Housewives, it's all been exposed. Oh my gosh, you know, talking about that, we had PK. Oh! We had PK on. I saw that. Yes. By the way, I saw him at the Peninsula Hotel. Okay. I saw that whole episode. I saw him at the Peninsula Hotel and I walked up to him and I know him a bit from the Bravo world. And I said, "Hey, you did a great job." Wow. I want to say congratulations because a typical guy in that position would have gone a different direction. Mm-hmm. And he was a gentleman and he was authentic and honest and, you know, he should be upset

• 3:54Speaker 03

  and pissed he's saying and doing these things and making these claims. He didn't go there at all. That was a wonderful interview you did with him. Yeah, he didn't. I thought he did. He was very mature. He was. He did himself a solid. Yes. Because any other husband would have used that as sort of a way to get their point of view out there. And, because she, you know, she's saying certain things. I don't really follow Housewives very closely, but he took the high road. Yes. Beautifully. He did. And you let him take the high road. It's funny because at one point I was wondering, is he gonna go? Because you could have easily gone, you know, just a little, I mean, but what about the

• 4:35Speaker 03

  fact that, you know, you weren't paying the mortgage and foreclosure? You didn't go there. You left it open, but you saw that he wasn't gonna go there. No, I like to present. Yes. Topics and allow the guests to go. And on that, can I present a topic that I am willing to bet you did not think we would talk about? Oh, good. And this is actually where I want to start. And I'm not gassing you up. This is, this is the truth. Okay. Is, you know what? You are in incredible shape. Yes. You walked in, you said, "I am." You are, when you walked in, I thought, "Oh my gosh." You could tell even in this thing, huh?

• 5:18Speaker 03

  I can see, I can see the pecs going, the biceps. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. Tell me about this, because you are. I don't believe it. 67. You're 67. Yeah. So I'm in incredible shape because of what's called longevity escape velocity. Have you ever heard of this? No. This is the principle that goes along with this whole artificial intelligence and how it's going to affect our worlds. Okay. And the principle is this, if you're able to maintain yourself, okay? Once artificial intelligence solves medicine, solves biology, solves longevity, we're

• 6:00Speaker 03

  going to be able to do things that we never had access before that will allow us to live a lot longer. Okay. And so longevity escape velocity refers to this principle that for every year you're alive, you get to live another three years because of this solving of longevity that's about to happen. Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. And I can give you lots of examples that I think are fascinating in this regard and where we're going with this when we do talk about AI. Okay. But, uh, so in, towards that end, I think when you hit about 60 years of age, and

• 6:37Speaker 03

  I'm 67, there's kind of this automatic frailty gene that kicks in in humans, that you go from being whatever you are to suddenly a lot more frail. And maybe it's 63 in some people, maybe it's 64. And it's inevitable unless you do the work. Okay. And Dr. Ter, when you're talking about you become more frail, is it literally, what, is it bone mass shrinks? Yes. Okay. Sarcopenia, it's loss of muscle, it's potentially dementia. It's just, you know, the telomere shortening on your chromosomes, those ends of your chromosomes that are responsible for the reparative processes, okay? They get shorter and shorter and shorter.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  And when you lose your telomeres, you lose the ability to fix those processes that normally, you know, the electrons and the oxygen-free radicals that are damaging your body. Yes. When you're young, you, you just go, whoosh, you fix them. As you get older, those telomeres start to go away and you have no reparative ability. Okay. And when you lose the reparative ability, all of a sudden, you're much more susceptible to cancer, dementia, metabolic disorders like diabetes, and just generalized aging. The only way to combat that is to do resistance training, max your protein, minimize your

• 8:02Speaker 03

  body fat, do at least 150, ideally 250 minutes a week of zone two cardio. Oh, wow. So you're doing all of this? All of it. Okay. It is my job every single day. Days off are not a thing. Youth is wasted on the young. I mean, when, you know, when you, if exercise is wasted, when you're young, you want to exercise because you want to look attractive. Right, this is true. Exercise when you're older is if you want to live. Are there advantages to beginning those habits when you're in your 20s, 30s? Yes. Yes, because, you know, if you're, if you're always in shape, it's a lot easier to stay in shape.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  And there is a sort of a base you get. It's like when you're a runner, okay? When you're a runner, you try to create this base. I run 35 miles a week, right? And that allows me to get a sort of a, enough of a cardio base that I can be a marathon runner. You can't just decide two weeks before, you have to create this base. Longevity requires the same base. If you can work out your whole life, you get a lot of bank, right? Okay. And so the more bank that you accumulate in longevity, the easier it is to stay in shape and the longer, the longer you stay in shape, the longer you get to live. Thank you. You've inspired me. Yeah. I'm going to the gym tomorrow.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  I mean, I tell my friends, you're a lot younger than me, but I tell my friends who are over 55, 60, I go, "What did you do today? Oh, you, you, you shortened your life today. If you didn't move your body every single day, right? You're essentially renting this thing. And if you don't pay rent, if you don't take care of it, you're going to be evicted." Wow, I hear it. I hear it. I would imagine that this, these concepts, you became aware of these because of your medical background. Definitely. What led you on to that path? That, the medical, even the cosmetic journey? What was the inspiration for you? So when I went to medical school, I went to UCLA Medical School.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  I went to the Yale New Haven Emergency Room. Okay. And I volunteered in the emergency room. The minute I got in there, I saw these incredibly bright residents who seemed to be brilliant and commanding of the human body and confident. And I loved the smell of the hospital. So I got turned on by medicine. And because of this personality, I got into UCLA Medical School. I went to UCLA Medical School. The day I walked. Phenomenal school. Great school. And the day I walked in, they go, "Surgeon." I said, "Really?" They go, "Oh, you're such a surgeon." Because I guess the outgoing personality, wanting to problem solve, the fast thinker, kind of, you know, I'm kind of brave and I don't give an S, you know?

• 10:56Speaker 03

  But now, can I ask you this too? Yes. Is because I've often heard that people say that the best surgeons have a God complex. Yes. You, do you, so how do you, how do you define? You define a God complex and do you agree with that? Uh, I, well.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Do I want to admit to having a god complex? Gotcha. Yeah, gotcha, yeah. Um, well, I'm not sure. Yeah, I think the classic training to become a surgeon teaches you to have a god complex. It's probably reinforced, right? Yeah. Um, because you want to be incredibly confident. And when you think about it, it kind of is a superpower. It's the ability to take a person who's potentially dying from, say, a traumatic injury, a gunshot wound to the heart, and have the confidence and lack of fear

• 11:59Speaker 03

  to spray their chest with antiseptic in the emergency room. Take a scalpel between their seventh and eighth rib, put rib spreaders in, open their heart in front of, open their chest in front of everybody, find the hole in the heart and sew it up right there. And you have about 45 seconds to do that. And you have to put the stitch in perfectly, otherwise you're going to rip a hole in the heart and make it all worse and they're going to expire. So you're taught to be the man. You're taught to go for it. And there is kind of a, you know, we're the best. Every other doctor here is a loser except for the surgeon. So that's reinforced. So there is a little bit of that. Yeah. And I will tell you too, personally, is I want my surgeon to have a god complex. Yes.

• 12:44Speaker 03

  I remember having this conversation. Uh, unfortunately, it was with a family member who was getting ready to go into surgery. Yes. Saying, I want my surgeon to be incredibly confident. Yes. Incredibly confident. Yeah. Well, surgical training, because you do so much of it, you know, there's that, that 10,000 hours thing? Yes. To master something, you need to spend 10,000 hours. In my era of surgical training, we were on call, awake in the hospital for 48 to 50 hours straight. You go home and sleep for six hours and you do it again for seven years. So we would get 10,000 hours of active training within months.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  So by the time you're a second, third, fourth, fifth year resident, your hands are on fire. You can operate with your eyes closed. All you see, it's just an afterthought. Yes. And you get really proficient, really good, really confident. And you do it so much that all of those sort of, I'm actually cutting open a person. And when you think about what we're actually doing, this is life or death, that is not part of it. We're, it's like a sushi chef, cutting open beautifully a piece of raw fish. It's about that much emotion to it. Look how, oh, this is awesome, you know? What was it about cosmetic surgery that, you know, that compelled you?

• 14:14Speaker 03

  So I wanted to be a cardiac surgeon. And I thought, what's the coolest, most hair on fire thing to do? And it's heart surgery. So I was going to start doing research at UCLA in my second year in heart surgery when this doctor walked in. And twice a week, a doctor from a different specialty would walk in to the classroom. The first two years is classroom work and the second two years is clinical work. And he says, he's, he lived about six, four. He looked like Mel Gibson. He was wearing cowboy boots, long hair, blue eyes. And he walks in, he goes, turn down the lights. He turned down the lights and he started showing slides of

• 15:00Speaker 03

  plastic and reconstructive surgery. And he started with, you know, burns and cleft lips and cleft palates and cancer reconstruction and showing these pictures of people having half their face removed and then looking normal afterwards. Or people losing their thumbs and you put it back on under the microscope. These are all things that plastic and reconstructive surgeons do. And then 20% of what he showed was just straight up cosmetic surgery. So he turns on the lights at the end of the lecture, the one hour lecture. And, you know, all 125 of us UCLA medical students looked at each other and goes, whoa, and he goes, ladies and gentlemen, that is plastic and reconstructive surgery. He gets really deep voice.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  He goes, the last true renaissance field of medicine. And I thought, whoa, and I chills. I, he walked out, I went down, he's walking down the hall and I said, Dr. Lesivoi. I said, do you do research? Cause that's the key. If you want to be high end, you want to be a good applicant in a specialty, do research in that specialty. He goes, come, I'm going to my lab right now. I walked right to his lab. Within a couple of weeks, I was full time at work in his lab and doing medical school. And I ended up running his lab and published 28 papers for him. Wow, look at that. Yeah. And I went from being a guy who wanted to go into cardiac surgery to, that's it. It just happened. It just happened, yeah, yeah. It's interesting.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  They say you end up going into what your mentor does. So had he been a urologist, I'd probably be a urologist. Right, right. Right, but, but, but you became? I became a plastic surgeon because of that mentor. Because of him. And so then you, eventually you opened up your own practice in Beverly Hills. But I had something very unusual happen to me that allowed me to become a very big plastic surgeon within three years. Okay. I got a TV show.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  Yes. I remember, and I know what this one. Do you know what the show is? This must be The Swan. The Swan. I remember The Swan. I remember it. Craziest TV show. I mean, can, can we talk about The Swan? Because at the, well, one is, how would you describe The Swan? The worst reality show of all time.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  No, how would I describe it? I mean, you would never do The Swan today. Because it sort of is the wrong messaging relative to today's social, cultural norms. Okay? Right. The Swan was a show where we took

• 17:43Speaker 03

  12 ugly ducklings. You would never identify women as ugly ducklings, right? Oh, essentially it was only women. Yes. Okay. Ugly ducklings. And, uh, we brought them into an environment, uh, where we were going to do head to toe transformational surgery and turn them into the ultimate swans. To make it more palatable, we added a psycho, a psychologist, a trainer, a dentist. So that ideally, they would have an internal and external transformation. So it didn't just look like you're not worth anything unless you're pretty, which is a really bad message. Yes. Right? Yes. And so, but on its face, that makes sense.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  Let's fix them on the inside, fix them on the outside and allow them to be the best person they can be. Right? And so what made the show very unique is that they all moved into an apartment complex together, undergoing the Swan transformation with head to toe surgery, training, therapy, and life coaching.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  But they wouldn't get to see themselves for three months. Ah, that's right. Remember that? That was the hook, because there was an unveil. Unveiling. At the, yes, yes, yes. Also, part of that process was, and this is another dicey part of the show that you would never do today. There was a competitive aspect. So every week after their transformation, they would go up against another Swan. And whoever made the bigger transformation got to stay on the show to ultimately compete in the final beauty challenge to determine the ultimate Swan. So here you are, you're transformed, but not enough. So you're rejected. Wow, yeah.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  And then you get to go on to a beauty contest and it was extraordinarily controversial. Yes. But you know, well watched. I remember looking at the statistics. There's over nine million people watching. Yeah. The, the show. Um, and I would imagine that that was the show that, that you, where you became a celebrity. Or a public figure. So. Public figure. Yes. Okay. Right. Cause I'm not really a celebrity. I'm more of a person who speaks about health, wealth and beauty. By the way, if anyone ever asks me, do I like being a celebrity, whatever that means? I love it.

• 20:10Speaker 03

  I'm obsessed with it. It's the best. People are, when you're a low level celebrity like me, people are extraordinarily nice to you. And they come up to you and talk, I mean, I'm not Leonardo DiCaprio, okay? So where people are, and nobody's bothering him. They come up, they're so friendly. I love you, I love your wife, who you know is on The Housewives. Yes. It's, it's like being the high school quarterback. And you had a good game and you're walking down the hall and the locker rooms, the lockers are there and everybody's going, hey Terry, hey Terry, here Terry. That's the life of being a low level reality person. Well, I, I think it's, it's relative. Because I will say this, she's watching, she will be very embarrassed. But my wife absolutely loves you. Oh, I appreciate that.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  And you are, to her, you're at the top of the totem pole. Not, not, not, not the bottom of the, the totem pole, you know what I mean? So I think it's, it's very relative. But what I know that she does admire about you is the work that you do. Yes. That's, that's, that's, that's really what, I think it was, it's botched. Another, none, none of your shows. That's what really put me on the map, yeah. Yes, I mean, she, she's just very impressed with the work that you did. I appreciate that. But, but on The Swan, though, I have to ask, though, is very controversial show. Oh. But we're talking many years ago, so what is this? Two thousand and three and four. Two thousand and three and four. So, so it was a different time, different day and age.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  Is that a show that are you, do you regret being on the show? Or, or, or, or do you not? I don't regret it because at the time, first of all, when I first got on the show, they didn't tell us, hey, there's gonna be a beauty pageant. And we're gonna identify them as ugly ducklings. And we're gonna criticize them as the process goes along if they're not trying hard enough. And was there a little bit of a meanness to the show? Maybe. Um, you know, they come on and they said, hey, how'd you like to do a plastic surgery in a reality show? And I said, okay. But it was interesting because, um, I remember we had shot the show, and we could talk as much detail about the show as you want, but, because it's the 20th anniversary.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  But we talked, we shot the show and then, you know, they're in production and editing and you forget about it, you go back to your regular life. And I'm sitting there watching American Idol, which at that time had, what, 70 million viewers? Yeah, it was next level crazy. It was the Super Bowl everywhere. Yes. Okay, so I'm sitting there with my wife, we're watching American Idol. We knew we were gonna get an American Idol lead in, which means. Numbers go up. Numbers go up. And it's, American Idol comes to a commercial, all of a sudden, they start showing these fast paced images of surgery and of operating scenes and patients in bandages. And then it goes, it stops on me sitting in a chair like this.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  And I say, it's a scalpel, not a magic wand. Boom, The Swan. And I went, whoa. And that, the next day, everybody knew who I was. Just like that? Just like that, overnight. And the show came out, I remember after the first episode, we, my wife wanted to go to San Francisco for some reason. We fly over to San Francisco, we walk into this busy restaurant. And the hostess sees me, there's this long line, she goes, oh my gosh. And she goes, come up here. Got immediately seated at a table. And I went, oh, this is what it's like to be a celebrity. This is good. This is good, yeah. And it, truly, how, how, how did that feel?

• 23:44Speaker 03

  Cause that's a feeling that many people aspire to, to, to, to get to, aspire to have. But how, how does that feel to overnight go from not being recognized at the restaurant to now you're getting the best table in the restaurant? It felt amazing. And I loved it, but I will tell you, it kinda ruined the other cast members. They took it to mean that they were extra special, I think. And some of them had some difficulties in their career because they were sort of famous overnight. For me, I was married, I have this face for radio. I, I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm very proud of what, what I can do surgically.

• 24:27Speaker 03

  I do feel I have a superpower for sure. But other than that, am I more special than anybody else? I'm not. Maybe I'm slightly more amusing than most people I know. So it didn't really affect me and it didn't make me feel like I'm special. Or I should be treated in any special way. It, it, in a way, it made me just nicer. I've always been super nice anyway, but even more grateful. It, it just pushed a gratitude button in me where it's like, wow, I'm so lucky. I'm the luckiest guy in the world. And I also realize, I'm a bit of a Buddhist. I also realize if you wanna be successful, feel lucky, feel grateful. You'll get rewarded for that behavior in life.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  I've always felt that. And so it, it made me more humble in a weird way. But I do, but I'm very, very honest. I mean, people say, do you like it? I go, I love it. Yeah. I love all that comes with it. Yeah, I, I think that's a, that's an answer that you don't often hear. Right. But I appreciate that because, yeah, I think that there's some great, great benefits. Oh, there are. Yeah, that, that, that you receive. But now on The Swan, just one more question for me on, on this is that, were you shocked that it was canceled? Given, because it was, it was controversial, but yet it was highly rated. Okay, I wasn't, I wasn't. I can tell, I remember the moment it got canceled.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  We had been approved for the third season. Okay, we did two seasons, both successful. We're casting the third season and because of reality TV was really pushing the envelope at the time, we were gonna do some crazy casting. We were gonna have triplets. Oh my goodness. And because there's two surgeons, I was gonna operate on two. He was gonna operate on one. And we were gonna see how different they looked, which is kinda messed up, isn't it? That's, yeah, it is. Yeah, and so they were starting to go. And then what happened was the president of Fox at the time got fired and a new president took over. I remember his name, Peter Legori.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  He came from FX. And his, one of his first things he did was get rid of that terrible show, The Swan. He just canceled it, right in the middle of casting. Wow. Yeah, I remember, cause it was 10 o'clock at night and I'm looking at all these VHS tapes of all these patients deciding who we should operate on, who we shouldn't. And then one of the productions assistants came out from the executive offices and said, you can go home now. I go, what do you mean? I'm not done. No, you're, you're, you can go home now. And you know, it was the Hollywood no that never comes, they didn't tell you got canceled. Right. But. Was it on pause? They didn't use, by the way, they use that word pause now. Really, then it was a pause? There was, there was no such thing as pause.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  But they said, well, we're, um, I think we have some budget issues we need to get past. Because when you look at reality TV at the time, it was getting very smarmy. You know, who's your daddy? Yes. You know, guys, judges getting there with a laser pointer, identifying deficiencies in, in women's bodies on stage in a bikini. It was going the wrong direction. Yeah. Why, why do you then think that, and I'm with you, yeah, I'm, I'm totally with you, the, the next project, television project at least that you do, is it botched? No, I did arguably a worse one. Oh, did you? Yes. Oh my gosh, do I know about this one? What is this one? It was called bridalplasty. Bridalplasty?

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Okay, tell me about this. So, okay, we took 10 affianced, engaged females. Okay. Moved them into a house and each week, they competed in wedding related challenges. For example, who could do a floral arrangement the best? Whoever won that week, they'd bring some Beverly Hills florist to judge, oh, that's the best floral arrangement. Okay, you won. She then got to have the plastic surgery procedure of her choice. Wow. From me, okay? But here's the thing, there's always a thing in reality TV, okay?

• 28:50Speaker 03

  If you lost, if you were last place in the wedding related challenge, the host would say, she'd kick you off the show without her, your plastic surgery of your choice and say, you're still gonna get married, it's just not gonna be fabulous. And then, in the final competition, whoever won, get to have a head to toe makeover, but here's the catch. They were gonna throw you a big wedding in a veil, but your fiance wasn't gonna see you until the day of your wedding and be revealed to you to say, I do. Wow.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  I see it. That's problematic. That could be an issue. That could be an issue. Yes. Do you know, how do you reconcile that? Because you know, it's interesting is this is where I have sympathy and empathy. Because I've been part of a number of reality TV formats. Okay. That many consider to be outlandish. Okay. But the work that I do, I pride myself. Yeah. On the work that I do, right? Very proud and I stand, you know, 10 toes down. Right. On my work. I know you do the same. Oh. So how do you reconcile?

• 30:13Speaker 03

  And this is, you could even coach me on this is how do you reconcile being a part of this format? That is bizarre. My excuse. Okay. My explanation is that going in, they don't necessarily share with the surgeon, the format very much. You don't really know how the show is going to play out, particularly the first season because they don't know. True. They're figuring it out. They're figuring it out. So all you have to do is show up and be a great physician and a good surgeon and be honest. And make sure, and I tell them, first thing I tell these reality TV participants is, okay, there are cameras here. Forget the cameras. This is you and me, all right?

• 30:59Speaker 03

  Doctor, patient, we're family in this. I go, anything you don't like, you tell me, I will stop it. And you don't do anything that you wouldn't normally do if you were in my Beverly Hills office. Okay. So I just lay down the ground and so I just practice, I'm not influenced in any way, shape or form by the production. Like it on the swan, they wanted you to push the envelope. Do more, do more. No, no, no, no. Let's, what do you want to do? I would say to the patient. Of course, the show runners say, do it all. Take more off your lids. Take that nose, what about that nose? Wow. And did some of them do it? Did some of them go, like, what would you say the most shocking transformation you saw on the swan?

• 31:43Speaker 03

  There was one, I didn't do her. There was one who the surgeon referred to as total facial rearrangement. Like taking the furniture in your house and just completely rearranging it. So that when she came out and was unveiled, as far as I was concerned, completely unrecognizable. To the point where I'm not even sure her kids would know who she was. Wow. Yeah. So I don't do that kind of, and I would never do that. There was one person on the second season of the swan that had a nose that wasn't maybe aesthetically as ideal as others might think it should be. Okay. She didn't want her nose done.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  The producers were very unhappy about that because that was going to be one of her major transformations. And truthfully, had they known she was not going to elect to do her nose, they wouldn't put her on the show. Right. But she was doing a lot of other things. And she says to me, I don't really want to change my ethnicity. I go, don't. And she goes, well, I'm worried. I go, no, no, no, no, no. I don't care. You're on the show. I'll operate on you. Let's only do the things you want to do. They were a bit upset with me. Yeah. And they wanted to push me to push hers. Like, there's no pushing plastic surgery. This is as serious as a heart attack. So we didn't do her nose. They kicked her off the show, of course. Well, she lost in the transformation competition because she didn't do her nose. And I thought, okay, whatever, man.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  So I just stick to what I do. Yep. And that's how, I remember though, after the first season was so controversial that they invited us to go on Dr. Phil. And I, you know, I thought it was going to be a grilling by Dr. Phil. But once Dr. Phil met me and talked to me before we went out, he changed everything and he wasn't going to go in attack mode. But I remember when I did bridleplasty. Bridleplasty came out and I'm watching The View. And, you know, the show was done. Three months later, it comes out. I've already forgotten about it. The first episode comes out and I'm watching The View and it's Joy Behar and Barbara Walters, maybe Whoopi and somebody conservative person.

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Right. And have you seen this show, Bridleplasty? And I'm watching in my office about to, I mean, my surgery center about to go with the next case. Joy Behar turns to the camera and goes, and Dr. Dubrow, you should be ashamed of yourself. And I went, oh. And my nurse walks in, she goes, what? I go, oh, this is not good. This is not good. And literally, ring, the phone rings and it's the producers, you're going to New York. You're going to be on The View. I go, no, I'm not. And they go, yes, you are. So I thought, well, what am I going to do? Just let them trash me over the next five weeks or eight weeks? So I got on a plane and went to New York.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  Did you? Oh my gosh, I have to pull the footage from that. How did that go? So I went up the service elevator and the producer with, you know, the day producer with the clipboards looking at me go, so do you kind of feel like you're going to, you know, an, you know, a trial? A trial by fire? And I go, I don't know, should I? She thinks, she goes like this, well, I would. And I went, oh. So what happened was I went into makeup. Okay. And I walk in to do, for them to judge me. And Joy Behar, Elizabeth Hasselbeck. Okay, okay, yes. That's the concern. That's the concern, yes.

• 35:26Speaker 03

  And Barbara. Were there. Yes. And I walk in and they go, whoa. And I said, hi, guys. And then I just sort of, I had about 20 minutes and they were talking to me. And I charmed them. Wow. I charmed them. There was a, there was a TV show on HBO about vampires. And the vampires would glam you. Yes. Remember this, True Blood? True Blood, yes. That show was on at the time. Okay. I glammed them. So when you went out? They were so nice to me. Oh, my goodness. You know Terry? I go, yeah, I know. That's, I tell you, the fact that you glammed them. I glammed them.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, because Joy is a tough cookie. Barbara Walters. Yes. You know, yeah. She was, she was not going to be that negative. She was going to open it up to allow them to attack me because that's more of her as a reporter, neutral position kind of person. Yes. But Joy was really going to go after me. And Elizabeth comes on, she goes, I love plastic surgery. And she was like, I'm your biggest fan. I went, I love the swan too. And that's how she started. I went, oh, this is going pretty well. And Joy goes, you know, Terry, if you weren't such a nice guy. Boom. Wow, look at that. Charmed life, huh? Whew. I was scared for you. Thank you. Even in that story, I was scared for you. Lucky. Yes, yeah, blessed. Blessed. Blessed. Super blessed. Yeah. And so, okay, so that, that show then must go away because I didn't hear.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  One season, bing. It's gone. The critics just, you couldn't do another season. It was going, wow. I had never even heard of them.

• 37:06Speaker 05

  Hey, Paul, we've got a surprise for you.

• 37:08Speaker 03

  You do? Oh, right. Who's it from?

• 37:11Speaker 05

  It's love from your listeners. We Need to Talk is sponsored by Claude Bioanthropic, the AI for mindset, don't stop at good enough. So we thought we'd use it to make Paul something special from you. Using Claude, we analyzed every comment left on all the 102 YouTube episodes and then prompted it to turn that data into something beautiful.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  This design is 1010. We talked to each other, 6,021. That's how many ongoing conversations were sparked in the comments of your episodes. Wow. Thank you for giving us the confidence to be as open with each other as your guests are with you. That is a lot of conversations. And that, I would say, has been my biggest surprise about We Need to Talk is how many people continue the conversation from the episode into their lives with people they love, with their friends, with their family, with their partners.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  And how those conversations then help them to change their behavior. And so that's all I could ask.

• 38:18Speaker 05

  For delving deeper, get started with claude.ai/talk. That's claude.ai/talk.

• 38:26Speaker 00

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• 39:27Speaker 03

  Was Botched the next? Yes. But that's many years later. Yeah, Botched was 2014, that was 2009. 2009, okay. Yeah, so then between that, I'm watching my buddy, Paul Nassif, plastic surgeon. Yes. He and his wife go on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. And I'm saying, oh my gosh, what is this show? I wasn't really that familiar with Housewives. And I start watching them and I say, hmm, wouldn't that be fun to go on Real Housewives of Orange County? So I say to my wife, uh, what do you think about Real Housewives of Orange County? She goes, yeah, never. Cause she was an actress on a TV show. She goes, I'm never doing that cheesy housewife show, ever.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  Honey, forget it. I go, it kinda looks fun. Cause Paul goes, it's fun. So I apply for, and I don't tell her. Really? Yeah. True story, by the way. Oh my goodness. So I, she says, I'm not doing it. So I go, all right. So I devise a reality show of all of her and her high-end friends opening up a restaurant. Get out of here. Called The Pelican Hill Wives. And I thought, this is gonna make the greatest reality show because one was the CEO's wife of Smith and Wesson. Yes. One was a neurosurgeon, one wife was, and they were all gorgeous and wealthy. So I said, let's pitch a show about opening up a restaurant.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  So we fly up to Burbank and meet the guy, Alex Baskin at Evolution, to pitch him this show about housewives, I mean about the restaurant. Restaurant, yep. But I had already contacted him a little bit about my wife being on Housewives. So we're driving away, we already were gonna sign deals with other production companies to do this show, but we're driving, I'm driving away, they flew up on a helicopter. I drove home in my hybrid, cause one of them had a helicopter.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  And he calls me, goes, how about this? Instead of doing that show de novo, why don't your, why doesn't your wife come on as the next housewife on Real Housewives of Orange County? And we'll incubate that show on a hit show. That'll, you'll have a much better chance, cause the chance that show is actually gonna be picked up is low, cause it's hard to get it. So I call him to my wife, he goes, so they wanna do the show? And I go, well, here's the thing.

• 41:52Speaker 03

  How about you come on Real Housewives of Orange County? We, she goes, I am not coming on Real Housewives of Orange County! And so I didn't speak to her for two weeks. No. I literally barely talked to her for two weeks. I really did. And then finally, she said, okay, fine. If you want me to go on that show so badly, you sign the contract. So Alex Baskin, the producer, is a very famous producer now at Vanderpump Rules, The Valley. Yes. He's huge. Yes. He's calling me the whole time. So she wants to come on. Oh yeah, she wants to come on, Alex, I'm lying. I sign the contract. Does she know? No. She said, if you want me to do it so bad, almost passive aggressively. This is a true, true story. This is incredible. Not exaggerated at all.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  And I said, Heather Dubrow. And I sign it and I fax it back. And Alex calls me, okay, great. So she needs to come up and... Can I just go back? So you forged her signature? Totally.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  1,000%. This is so scandalous. I know. Yeah. And I said, so we're gonna go up and meet with the family. She goes, what do you mean? I go, I signed the contract to be on Real Housewives of Orange County. She goes, what? I go, I did. Long story short, she said, okay, I'll go meet them, but I'm still, you know, I'm not, it's not indentured servitude. If I don't wanna do it, I'm not gonna do it. So I'd never seen the show. Long story short, I go on my iPad and I go, Real Housewives of Orange County? I've never seen this show at all. I'd bring up, the only scene I could find was this scene of this girl, Tamra, who we know very well now, who's like the longest-running OG housewife there is, throwing a glass of wine in one of the other housewives' face.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  You ever seen this scene? Heard of it? Yes, yes. And I look at this and I go, I dropped the iPad, I walk in the kitchen, I go, honey, we're not doing the show. I had no, I thought, I don't, you know, she goes, what are you talking about? I go, I show her this scene and she goes, oh, it's hilarious.

• 43:56Speaker 03

  And here we are, my wife's been on the show for like, what?

• 44:01Speaker 03

  11 years? Yeah, the rest is history. That is fascinating. And to answer your question, Paul got off, Paul left Beverly Hills, his break, his, the reality TV show, Housewife Curse, occurred, he got divorced on the show. Yeah. He calls me one day and he goes, let's do a show about revisional plastic surgery. Cause he wanted to get back on TV. And we were specialists in doing hard revisional plastic surgery by then. Yes. And I said, that's the worst idea ever, man. I go, listen, it's, it's gonna fail a lot, we're gonna, it's gonna be, the audience doesn't understand that even if we make it a little better, that's probably good. The fact that it didn't fail at all is probably good enough. They wanna see a before that's bad.

• 44:46Speaker 03

  Massive transformation. Massive transformation. Yes. And we'll look like bad surgeons. He goes, no, no, it'll work, it'll work. So we went up and pitched it to Alex Baskin. Yes. He said, let's shoot a sizzle reel, a nine-minute sizzle reel. They brought the cameras out, we looked at before and after pictures, and we were just talking, we had this amazing chemistry. They showed it to the network, they picked up the series. Yeah, and it became this instant hit. Instant. Yes. You know what it was called initially? No. Can I curse on this a little bit? You can. I can? You can bleep it. The show was called, remember Nip Tuck? Yes, I do. The show was called Nip Fucked.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  F asterisk C K E D. That, yeah, that's not working. So we were so happy with that name. So a week before the show comes out, we get a call from the executive producer, hey, we changing the name of the show. Why? The advertisers don't like Nip Fucked. Oh, cause there was a show called Shit My Dad Says, starring Will Shatner on CBS. So we thought they would go for it. Oh my god, they said no. So I go, what's the new name of the show? They go, Botched. I said, Botched? No. You didn't like that? No, because it implies... Right, that you're not, you're going to mess it up.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  That the, that the plastics, whoever operate on them, committed malpractice, or botched them. Okay. And I said, because 90%, they just had too much plastic surgery, or they had a big complication, it wasn't the doctor's fault necessarily. We didn't wanna highlight other doctors' failures. Okay. And even more importantly, I'm laying in bed at 2 o'clock in the morning after the, and I thought to myself, I wake up and my wife goes, what? I go, what if we blow it? The headline is, Botched by the Botched Doctor. I go, that's the worst title. And the network, NBC, goes, yeah, we don't care, it's called Botched. And we went to New York, the first episode came out, and back then Twitter was a new thing. Yes.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  So you could see how well a show was doing by how many tweets. I couldn't keep up with it. Yes. It was just, oh my, the great show, oh, this is, oh, he's so funny. It was just, and Paul goes, what do you think? I go, I don't know how much of an indication this is, but this might be a hit show. Yes. The next morning, they call us and they go, we're picking up the next season. From the second episode. From the second episode, yeah, look at that. And you know, and not only was it, I think, a hit in terms of the viewers, the ratings, that is. Yeah. But the critical review of it was positive. It was great. And what do you suspect the difference was between, say, Botched and The Swan? Why was Botched received so well?

• 47:35Speaker 03

  We weren't glorifying plastic surgery. We weren't minimizing the dangers of plastic surgery. We weren't advertising, everybody should have to look, should look, have big breasts, otherwise you're worth less, right? Okay. Your quality of life, it was about, hey, plastic surgery has its place, but this is a cautionary tale. It can and does go wrong. And we're gonna highlight when people have had too much plastic surgery, when they've pushed the envelope, when they went for medical tourism, bad decisions. So it was kind of the best kind of plastic surgery show you could ever wanna have on television, cause we were promoting safety.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. And caution, and making good decisions, and informed consent, and good medicine. And there's a lot of comedy, but we never put down the patients. And we always, you know, pulled the scalpel back, and it was just about giving people who were in hopeless situations, hope. Hope, yeah, that's what it was. I feel as if the participants, the contributors, they were inspired. Yes. And not only by how they now looked different, but they were inspired by you. Yes. And Dr. Paul as well. Yeah. And on that note, I wanna show you something. A few things for you. Okay. Dr. T, but this one in particular. Do you remember this case? Yes. Okay.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  That's my most significant case. Oh, really? Ever. Can you, can you tell us what's? Why is that the most significant case? So this was a patient who came in the second or third season. Okay. And the way botched works is there's an A story, a B story and a C story.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  And the C story is someone who we can't fix. But we're bringing on as a cautionary tale and we're trying to advise them not to have any more surgery. This is someone who went to one of those plumbing parties where illegal substances in a hotel room by an unlicensed provider injects people. Wow, okay. With filler. So she went to a hotel room, this woman, the madam, who injected her with plumbing material, caulking material, literal concrete from a hardware store. Goodness. As filler, which looked initially good.

• 50:07Speaker 03

  After about four months, the immune system started to overreact and form a foreign body reaction, what are called granulomas. And she developed these huge masses made out of concrete and inflammatory tissue all over her face. And no plastic surgeon would take her on. So we brought her on and I looked. And I'm sorry, even Dr. K, even that, why would no plastic surgeon take her on? Because first of all, it goes from the bottom of the skin, you know, the upper portions of the skin, where the blood supply is all the way down to the bone. So it's encompassing the muscle, the soft tissue, the blood supply of the skin, the nerves.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  To remove it, you have to remove this, these entire concrete blocks. And you're going to have giant holes and it's all going to die around there. Ah, okay. In addition, it's quiet now. But if you go in and operate on it, there's the great potential that you're going to overactivate or reactivate the immune system. And it'll become a massive inflammatory infected mass. Okay. Mess as well. So dead tissue, holes in face, much worse. No one would touch her. So we turned her down. So for the next eight months, I think we had between four, four months between seasons. Okay.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  I would go to bed. I don't sleep very well. I sleep very little. I go to bed and I sort of do my visualization about cases tomorrow or things I want to happen. And all I could see every day was her. I felt terrible. She says to me on the way out off camera, you know, I can't even go to a CVS, to a drugstore. Kids see me and immediately either scream or point. I can't go anywhere. I go, you don't go? She goes, I don't go to restaurants. I don't go into stores. I go nowhere. And this is before Postmates, you know? Where you can get the lid. Yeah. Yeah. So I felt so bad for her. So I had an epiphany at 4:00 AM

• 52:18Speaker 03

  that I thought would allow me to fix her. And the epiphany very briefly is this, I thought, why are we taking out the entire concrete mass? If you feel your face, it's bone. Yes. It's irregular bone. And I said, just as long as you can't see it. So I came up with the principle and plastic surgery, particularly botched plastic surgery, is all based on foundational principles in plastic surgery that you apply uniquely to new problems. Hopefully in a safe, effective way. I thought, I'll get orthopedic saw. I'll lift up the skin and I'll saw out the central two thirds collapsing these masses.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  And even though you can feel them, like you can feel your zygoma, your maxillary bone, you might feel it, but you can't see it. Okay. So I did, I took one out in her chin under local, just to see to make sure her immune system wasn't going to overreact. And I said, it didn't. All right. And I took her whole face apart and sawed them all out. And that's what she looked like. Wow. And she healed. That's incredible. And even three weeks ago, she sends, she has sent me a text. I just want you to know, this is years ago, nine years ago. I just want you to know how grateful I still am for you. So this is one of my biggest successes. Her, her name is? Rajee. Rajee. R A J E E. Yeah. I mean, absolutely incredible.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  And I would imagine it then changes her life. Oh, suddenly she can join the real world. She can be a participating human being. I mean, this is someone who's, she was telling me she thought a lot about ending things.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  You know, I am, on this note,

• 54:02Speaker 03

  there's something I want you to listen to. Okay. Okay, you're ready? This is a, I just have surprises for you. Oh, I love it. Here is one for you.

• 54:10Speaker 06

  Hey, Dr. DeBro, Rajee Narinsing here, transgender activist, actress, spiritualist, and thanks to you, reality TV personality. I feel so fortunate that you and I were able to cross paths this lifetime. The work that you are doing is extremely transformative. And I know that you had touched so many people's lives in wonderful uplifting ways, including my life. Because of you, I have so much more confidence to do all that I do in this world. Oh my goodness, Dr. DeBro, I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you again.

• 54:54Speaker 06

  Thank you for being such a blessing to my life. On that note, you keep shining bright. Love, peace and blessings. Bye.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's sweet. Thank you. That was, yeah. I mean, um, you know,

• 55:12Speaker 03

  that's heavy. There's, there's other reasons why it's also heavy, but this is very, uh, you know, I'm just so happy I was able to help her. I mean, I love her and see, that's a good example of, you know, if that would have gone badly,

• 55:30Speaker 03

  11 surgeons told her not to do it. So all of a sudden I do this thing to her and it goes very badly. That's a god complex. You know, I wrote a check that her face couldn't cash, right? And so I had to do a lot of soul searching to see whether I wanted to, because one, one could theoretically say that was negligent to even try it, even though I did it sort of a test. But anyway, that's, I mean, thank you for playing that. I, I love that. And I'm, I'm just so, I mean, I, you know, I don't know how the schlub got to be such a lucky person in life, but I did. I don't know.

• 56:14Speaker 03

  I must've done something right in a past life. Okay. Hopefully. I, I think the, the beauty for me is that I think some people may hear the term cosmetic surgeon. Yeah. And not understand how profound your work is and how important and life-changing it is. And this is an example, this is just one. Yeah. Of many examples of how your work and Paul's work has, has changed life and other surgeons have changed. Oh, yeah. Of, of many. When you think of other transformations or other moments from botched that stand out to you, are, are there any that, that really touch, touch your soul?

• 56:59Speaker 03

  There are so many. I mean, um, I, I love the ones where they not only have a cosmetic deformity, but they have a real significant functional deformity. Like they can't do something. For example, there was this police officer who had had an nephrectomy for renal cell cancer. And he got this pretty rare phenomenon where he lost all of the tone on the side of him, on his flank. And because of that, he had a huge bulge, essentially his entire intra-abdominal contents would bulge out. He couldn't even wear his police belt. Wow, okay. And so, and it was painful and he couldn't run, he couldn't tackle. Right. People and so on, do what he wanted to do.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  And so I had to come up with a very unique operation to fix that. That, that one really stands out. And then there's the, those who have, you know, they had so much tissue loss. They have a big skin graft on their abdomen. And how do you walk around with this giant ugly patchwork skin graft from your leg and your abdomen? When you're a 30 something year old woman who wants to feel attractive and be intimate and so on. Yes. And so, you know, I've been able to find ways. I mean, botched taught me how to be the botched surgeon.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  You know? Yeah. And so I learned how to do things that aren't in any textbooks that I just applied. And now I can do them practically with my eyes closed. Look at that, look at, and I believe you. Yeah. I believe you could. There was, there was one I was, uh, when I was, you know, researching for you coming in, there was one particular one that stood out to me as well. And this is Jenna. Do you remember Jenna? Who had, uh, she went to get a BBL. I believe it was a BBL. Oh. Do you, yeah, you remember that one? Was she African American? Yeah, I, I believe so. And she, well, this, this is the, uh, breast implants. In her buttock. In her, yes. Which, which, that seems to be malpractice to me. Yeah, well, it was Mexico, I think. Okay, yes, yes, it was Mexico.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  And they were so big and so heavy and so improperly inserted that it caused, and she was thin, right? Very attractive and young. Yes. And it caused her entire buttock to stretch out.

• 59:27Speaker 03

  And what are you going to do with that? If, because she was thin. So if you just take them out, you've got loose skin and no volume. And it would be worse looking to take them out. And they hurt. They were pressing on her nerves. Right. But, but also too is it, aren't BBLs the most? Dangerous. Dangerous. Yes, yes, yes. And why is that so? So if you take a BBL, as you know, is a fat transfer to the buttock. You take fat from one part of the body through liposuction. And you inject it into the buttock substance to make the buttock larger and more projecting. That sounds all great, all right? And it sounds like it should be pretty safe. The problem is there are these sort of large but short.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Blood vessels in the body that connect directly to the main vein going back to the heart. Okay. And so these gluteal veins are directly connected to the inferior vena cava. And if you by mistake, because you think about this procedure is done blindly, you're not opening them up and laying fat down, you're injecting it through a cannula and going to and fro, and you have no idea where the tip of that cannula is. And if you inject into one of those veins and it goes, a glob of fat goes to the right side of the heart and then goes to the lung and blocks the pulmonary circulation, that's called a fat embliss, you can die. I see.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  And that operation is the most fatal operation in plastic surgery, one of the most fatal operations of all because of that potential complication. My goodness, okay. And even a month ago, some influencer died because of that. Yeah. And so with Jenna as well, in that particular case, she had the BBL, but it seems like it wasn't fat, it was a breast. A breast implant. So she had augmentation of the buttock using a breast implant. So what do you do with that? Do you, first of all, she doesn't have any, even if you wanted to do a BBL, she didn't have any body fat. Right. And if you just take it out, she's got udders. Yes.

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  And she'll look way worse. So I invented an operation. You invented an operation? Yes. Based on surgical foundational principles, where I took it out, I did a buttock lift, so I took off a lot of the excess skin, but I took muscle and body fat from her flanks. She had a little bit of a love handle area and the right and left one, and I rotated them down, left their blood supply, their feeding blood vessels intact, and put it in the pocket. Oh my goodness. And lifted things up. And I don't know if you have a picture of that one, but that one really worked well. I do have a before, after.

• 1:02:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, that maybe we'll put up here. Okay, okay. We'll put the before, after. Yeah, I haven't seen it for a long time, but I was extraordinarily pleased with that result. Yes, yes. The note that I have here is that, and we will, we're going to place it right here. So there it is. Look at that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, sometimes when you do a reconstructive cosmetic procedure, you try to achieve normalcy. It's enough to make them look normal. From horrible to normal is a home run. But to go from horrible to beautiful is wonderful. And so, you know, I use the grade analogy.

• 1:03:14Speaker 03

  I always try to get a 93 on the exam, because a 93 is an A. Yes. Out of 100. And you can get into med school with 93s. And so if I can take them to a 93, I got an A on the test. Oh my gosh, yeah, I think you took her to 100. Yeah, that was, that one was exceeding of expectations, yeah. In the UK, I hear a lot of people say, we're going to Turkey. Yes. In the States, I hear a lot of people say, we're going to, to Mexico. That's right. Yeah. And I would imagine, because it's cheaper. It is cheaper. It is. And it's a fraction of what it costs in the UK or in the United States. The problem is, it's not regulated.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  They do have some fabulous surgeons in Mexico City and parts of Turkey, unbelievable, like they do all over the world. But, you know, they don't really have lawyers there. So they can do things without any kind of, you know, regulatory body overlooking them. So there isn't the same kind of paranoia, appropriate paranoia and fear and controls that there is in our countries. And so you don't know who you're going to get. And the worst part about that medical tourism is that what happens if you have a complication? Because you can go to the best plastic surgeons in Beverly Hills, Manhattan, Miami, Dallas, they all have complications. We all have complications.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  That if we didn't have complications, we wouldn't have you sign a consent form that lists everything from infection, bleeding to death, right? So if you have a complication in those countries and you come back here and nobody wants to touch you, you know, you, you're not going to pay them very much because you already had the surgery and nobody wants to deal with another surgeon's problems. Having said that, I will take them. Yes. I don't care. Yes. And you currently, you currently will? Even if they're in the throes of a massive complication and they're not even ready for my fix-it yet, I'll take them just because, I mean, I'm, I'm lucky, I'm, I don't really operate for money at all anymore.

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  I've gotten so lucky financially in my life for other reasons and so I just, I just want to help them. You don't operate for money anymore? I mean, I charge them. I'm, I'm expensive. Okay. If you can afford it. But what I mean by that is, I mean, I have an, I have an office in Beverly Hills now. Yeah. And I have people, 15 people who work for me. I have to feed the kitty or whatever it is, you know? Yes. But, you know, if a patient has a problem, they have a problem, I don't care. I'll help them. Period. End of story. I see it. Hey there. I just want to say thank you for choosing We Need to Talk.

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life and I want to continue to share it with you. So hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast. I know that you brought some items in. Oh, yes. Yes, show and tell. This is the show, so I have to say something. This is, I don't know if this is going to get me into trouble, but I'm just going to say, because I like, you just say how it is, right? Yeah. And so I have never in my life felt a breast implant, because those are, what those are, breast implants. You've never felt an in vivo breast implant? Or an ex vivo? I don't, what's the difference?

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  Well, in vivo means it's been inserted. Inserted. So I've never felt an in vivo or ex, or ex vivo? Ex vivo. Ex vivo. I've never felt an in vivo or ex vivo, but I've always been curious. Okay. So let me tell you about, this is a very, so this is a silicone breast implant. Okay. Now. Wow, look at that. It's very interesting, isn't it? Well, this is a very unique, this is a brand new type. Oh, is that different from this one? No, these are the same. It's just different sizes. But this variety has changed everything in plastic surgery. And in Europe, they've been using these for years. They weren't FDA approved. Hmm, okay.

• 1:07:36Speaker 03

  These have a unique quality to them. The biggest problem with breast implants and the number one complication with breast implants is that you form, your body will form scar tissue around them. Okay. And even if you do everything right and they're healthy, 15, 20% of the time, the body decides after a while it doesn't like them anymore. And just like with Raji, the immune system forming calcium, calcification and foreign body around it, it can do the same thing around these. Ah, okay. And that's called encapsulation. In other words, like capsular contracture are involved. And they become rock hard, painful, squeezes them down and distorts them. This doesn't do that very often. Ah, okay.

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  And recent studies have shown there's less than a 1% chance of this type of implant from getting hard. Wow, I see. So this is the new hot one that's been in the UK for a long time. Oh, really? This has been there for a while? But we're lucky it's FDA approved now. Can I say, the first thing that I think of, can I, actually, I want to, I want to. Yeah, please. So the, this is, the first thing I think of is, God, these would be heavy to walk around with. Yeah. I mean, it's, it feels like it's, you know. You want to hear something strange? What's that? Large natural breasts on a woman can give them symptoms of hyper masti. In other words, you can get symptoms related to them being very heavy, neck pain, arm

• 1:09:04Speaker 03

  pain, numbness, bra strap grooving. Giant implants, for some reason. They don't? They don't. Wow, this is, so would this be heavier? So what size is this? So it depends what your starting size is, right? So if you start out as a B, that's going to, you're going to be one size. If you start as a C, you're going to be bigger for any given implant, right? Fair enough. But if you're, let's say you're a small B, you're relatively small breasted. Okay. That one in your left hand, that's going to be like a small D. Okay. That one's smaller, right? That's going to be like a full C and this will be like a small C. Okay, okay, fair enough.

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  You know, also too, with, with breast implants, something that I'm sure you see this more than anyone, is it feels as if the trend, if you will, has drastically changed. Yes. We've had a few guests on who have told me that they literally saw their cosmetic surgeon and said, I want the biggest implant humanly possible. Yeah, we don't like that. But that was 10 years ago. That's right. But now. Thankfully. Really, so, so things have changed now? The trend has changed? The trend has changed. You know, it's funny, you look at this, there are certain celebrities that we can talk about, because they've. I'll give these back to you. I don't want to give these back to you, but I'll, I'll give these back to you. You can give these to me later. Well, there are certain celebrities that we can't actually talk about because they've

• 1:10:31Speaker 03

  admitted to plastic surgery recently. Okay. That moved the needle overnight. I'll give you an example. When Kylie Jenner, who what, has 1 billion followers or something? Maybe 800 million? And, yeah, plus a billion dollars, like. Or multiple billion. Yeah. When she, at age, I believe 19, had filler put into her lips, which is a verboten thing back then. You're never doing filler liposuction, breast augmentation on someone under 21 back then. Hmm, okay.

• 1:11:07Speaker 03

  Overnight, she changed the entire landscape of potential candidates for filler. Because she came and said, oh, look, her lips just got bigger and I think she admitted to it. And everybody, every teenager wanted filler in their lips. I didn't do that. I still, I still don't do that. I feel you should be 21. Okay? Okay. Look what Kris Jenner did. Kris Jenner de-stigmatized instantly facelift surgery. Yes. I mean, a celebrity would have a facelift and, oh, I went to a wellness retreat. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Right.

• 1:11:49Speaker 03

  We, we had Kathy Griffin, Kris, who's Kris Jenner's friend. Yes. And she told us she had just recently received her third. Yes. Facelift. However, she said she couldn't afford Kris Jenner's. Right. Because, you know, so in other words, she was saying that she, she didn't get the same level. She did. But she did. I know her surgeon and I'm not going to pit one against the other, but that guy is everything and more. Is top, yeah. I mean, she kept, she looked great. Great. She looked like phenomenal. Yeah. Facelifts now, because Kris Jenner, another Kardashian, moved the needle literally overnight.

• 1:12:30Speaker 03

  I remember back when National Geographic, there was a picture of Britney Spears with her arm up. And you could see an incision in her armpit. And they showed a picture of her like a year before with smaller breasts and then with full breasts. It was very clear she had had a transaxillary breast augmentation. Overnight, it became a thing to talk about breasts, even though she didn't even admit it. It became a thing to talk about. So who has moved the trend to smaller breast size? I think celebrities are doing smaller. I think just the general celebrities are looking smaller by and large.

• 1:13:12Speaker 03

  I don't think, when you look at these Love Island shows. Yes. I don't think you're seeing women with very big breasts anymore. So there's just a different standard, which is so good because the smaller you go, the less chance that the body is going to reject it and overreact to it. Because, I mean, think about it. I mean, I've always, I've always had this weird thought about plastic surgery. If you really think about cosmetic surgery, to go from not doing breast augmentation to it becoming a thing in culture, in society. Somebody came up with the thought, hmm, let's make an incision in the bottom of the breast and throw some plastic in there.

• 1:13:57Speaker 03

  Yes. Uh, that's crazy. That's an experiment. Yes. That's wild. Why, how can you ever get away with that? And somebody, you know, at one point, somebody said, oh, let's cut the face open all the way around the ears, fillet it like a fish, dissect deep layers near the nerves and pull it back. Right. Just to make them look younger. I mean, who was the first guy to do that? Yeah. If you think about it, cosmetic surgery is true human surgical experimentation.

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes. Now, when you mentioned the smaller, this, this, this whole idea of we like smaller. Yeah. Is this the reason why these GLP-1s have become so popular? Is it because, is that part of the smaller trend? I think it is, but a larger picture of course is, and you know, I'm obsessed with the GLP-1 drugs. I don't know if you know this about me, but. Well, my wife told, told me. She, so my wife told me that you microdose. Yes, I do. And she wants to know all about, I'll, I'll tell you. Yes. You could get me talking for five hours about this. So I'm obsessed with these drugs.

• 1:15:16Speaker 03

  This is the biggest, most historic change in the history of medicine, the introduction of these drugs. Because these drugs directly affect the risks of all top four causes of death, which include cardiovascular disease, cancer, metabolic disorders like diabetes, and neurodegenerative disorders like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. The less body fat you have, the lower your risk of all those causes of death. And it does it in a very beautiful, natural way. I'm so obsessed by these drugs that at this late stage of my life, I actually studied and took all the courses for a year to take the American Board of Obesity Medicine Certification exam.

• 1:16:00Speaker 03

  And I'm board certified in obesity medicine. Oh, my goodness. And an expert in obesity medicine, these drugs, because this is such, this is, this is to medicine as AI is to technology in general. Fascinating. Fascinating. And the path that's about to go on, if you want to hear about that, with the next line, level of drugs coming out is another level. Well, just to talk about the current adoption rate of this, because this is what I find to be very interesting. So in the US, 12 to 18% of adults have taken a GLP-1, right? Okay. Uh, this is according to KFF and RAND. Okay. Uh, in the UK, it's lower. 7% of adults are now currently using GLP-1s.

• 1:16:43Speaker 03

  In the UK, 1 in 10 women are likely, or very likely to consider a GLP-1 in the next year. Right. So the trend is, it's, it's, it's, it's growing. My first question around this is, what is the danger? Yes. Okay. There must be some danger in this. There is, but remember, these are FDA-approved drugs. Okay. These are also drugs that have been used for diabetes for the last 14 years. So diabetics have shown us that they're quite safe and effective. Okay. All right. So we know, it's not like it just came out and what, what's going to happen 14 years from now?

• 1:17:26Speaker 03

  You know, is the boogeyman going to appear out of the blue? They, they've already been used for a long time. The side effects relative to the benefits are crazily overwa- overwhelmed, overweight. Okay? The side effects are mainly related to slowing down the GI tract. Things like nausea, constipation, GERD reflux. And every once in a while, there is a tiny, tiny amount of people, I'm not really sure it's true, have visual problems with it, maybe even some blindness, although I'm not really sure that's true. And diabetic, uh, gastroparesis, your, your stomach stops working.

• 1:18:11Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't want to do that. It's so incredibly unlikely and rare. And by the way, you can take Tylenol, aspirin, the most common anti-hypertensive blood pressure medication, and take the list of side effects with those, they're a lot worse and a lot more common. The most dangerous drug we take is Tylenol. Really? Yeah. The number of liver failure, liver transplants that need to be done because of Tylenol overdose is extraordinary. That's the most dangerous drug we take for sure. So, um, but they're so effective. And the, you know, there's, there's, I don't know if you want me to talk too much about the types. You probably know, there's the Ozempics. Yes.

• 1:18:53Speaker 03

  And then, so there's the GLP-1, which is Ozempic and Wegovy. Then there's the GLP-1 and GIP, which is Monjaro and Zepbound, same drug. Okay. And then there's the one about to come out. Uh-oh. Retatruteide. People call it Reta. Some people call it Retatruteide. It's Retatruteide. For those who know that, you know. Okay. But anyway, Reta. It's gone, it's going through phase three clinical trials at the FDA with Eli Lilly. And it's GLP-1, GIP, and a fat burner. And a fat. Because the big problem with these drugs is you take them, and as opposed to a regular diet where regular diet, diet and exercise, you lose 75% fat, 25% muscle.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  With these, you lose too much regular muscle and you don't want to lose muscle. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't realize you lose muscle with these. So the big recommendation for anyone who wants to take these is, okay, you can take it, but you're now upping your protein intake. Every day you're taking your protein and two, at least two and ideally three times a week. Right. Resistance training. You've got to maintain your muscle mass. Okay? Retatruteide has a fat burner in it. So it helps to preserve muscle and directly burn fat. So that's the one that's about to come out. What's weird is it's already being made. It's already being compounded illegally all over the place. Interesting.

• 1:20:20Speaker 03

  In Beverly Hills, very few people I know who are on these are on the approved ones. They're all on Reta. Oh, my goodness. Reta. And by the way, if your phone is around, don't get it out because it's listening. Next time you mindlessly scroll, you're going to see nothing but Reta. But Reta, yeah. It's so effective. Don't use Reta from a compounding pharmacy because it comes from China. Who knows what's in it? But when it comes out, that's going to be the big number one game changer. Do you, do you recommend now that, because you're saying that basically we want to reduce body fat? This is the, right? So anyone who's walking around with body fat outside of the ideal percentage,

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  are you suggesting that it's to our benefit? I think, here's where it gets, the answer is yes. I think everyone who has obesity, certainly clinical obesity, which is by definition, a BMI greater than 30, that's class one obesity. Greater than 35 is two, greater than 40 is three. These are people who are. Much, much more obese than they should be. Where it gets real hinky is that because these drugs not only control body fat, they also control sugar metabolism. Okay. And they clearly minimize the effect, the inflammatory effect of sugar on the human body. So much so

• 1:21:44Speaker 03

  that because of that effect, they're now FDA approved for kidney disease, fatty liver disease. So the question is, should everyone? I'm not advocating this, or am I? Should everyone, even someone who has no need to lose weight? Should they be on a low dose of these drugs anyway? Just to minimize the inflammatory effect, the big enemy of sugar? Is this why you micro? Is it? Microdose. Yeah, because my wife is saying, yeah, Dr. Terry, microdose. So, so this is why? So it's not a full dose that you're taking? Correct. Okay. So the question is, what does microdose mean? Because it means different things to different people. Let's take Monjaro, the FDA approved one. Zepbound is also called.

• 1:22:27Speaker 03

  The lowest dose is 2.5 milligrams, once a week. Okay. Is it an injection? Yeah, it's like this auto injector pen. It's wonderful. Okay. You don't even feel it. So the half-life is seven days. It starts to wear off, you get another one, and you start to build up. After four weeks or so, if your appetite isn't where you want it to be, if you're still eating too much, you're not losing as much weight, you go up to five. And then after four weeks, you go up to 7.5, 10, 12.5, 15. So to me, if you've gone up to five, 7.5, and 10, and you've lost all your weight, what do you do? Do you go off it, cold turkey? Right. I think the idea is to, for those people, consider microdosing,

• 1:23:10Speaker 03

  which means go down to a lower dose and just stay on that. And see how it works on you. Where it's, for some people, I'm a real responder. I take a low dose, I am not hungry. It's awesome. Other people, they don't respond the way I might. Okay. So they need to go way up. But for me, a microdose is like half a dose. Now, the drug companies probably don't want me to be saying this. They really, though they don't, because they have FDA approval, which means the FDA approves the marketing of these drugs. So the FDA says, you can advertise it for weight loss. You can't advertise it for sugar control. Okay, I see.

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  Like, by the way, Botox is FDA approved for here. You know, we put it here. You know, we put it here. It's not FDA approved for here. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. But anyway, I'm a big fan of microdosing. I could see it. I could see it. You know, on the Ozempic side too is something, it's interesting. I'm listening, I eavesdrop on my wife and her friends all the time, right? And these GLP ones, they're constantly talking about them. It's the new cosmetic surgery. It is like, it is the hottest thing. It is. I heard them once say, what about Ozempic vagina? Or Ozempic vulva? Ozempic vulva. Or Ozempic face?

• 1:24:40Speaker 03

  Yes, they're very different. Are these actual things? Yes. Okay. Those are Ozempic butt, Ozempic face, Ozempic vulva. Okay, so Ozempic vulva is when, you know, things start to really deflate and hang. And it doesn't necessarily look as aesthetic as they might like it to be. Ozempic face is when you've lost so much body fat, you prematurely. Here's the problem, when people, when they lose weight very quickly, they look very deflated and loose, and they run into the plastic surgeon's office. You should wait. Okay.

• 1:25:23Speaker 03

  Because they will re-equilibrate. And they will redistribute fat so that if you look at those people, even if they've lost weight and maintained that steady weight, steady weight for a long time, they'll put some face of fat naturally back in their face. Don't run into the plastic surgeon's office. Where it's opposite of this deflational change is Ozempic penis. Ozempic penis, I've never heard of this. Yeah. Tell me about it. So if you think about it, people who are very, men who are very obese, and they have a lot of pubic fat and inner thigh fat. If you're really fat, you have what we call buried penis syndrome. You can't find it in there.

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  So if you take Ozempic or one of these drugs, and you lose all of the surrounding fat, your penis looks bigger. Interesting. So. So Ozempic penis is actually, it's a good thing. Yes. How lucky are we, guys? We're always winning. We don't have to menstruate or have kids. No. You know? No. The plumbing is always the same, and our penises get bigger when we lose weight. That's what I'm saying. Ozempic vulva is bad. Ozempic penis is good.

• 1:26:42Speaker 03

  Thank you very much, Eli Lilly. Oh, my God. All right, so another area that we have to talk about, it has become a topic in my household because I have teenage boys. Oh, oh, looks maxing? You said it. Yes. Looks maxing. I'm obsessed with it. Yes. Could you first define it? And then let's, let's talk about it. So I think it's a phenomenon where primarily young boys, between the ages of sort of pre or just entering in puberty to about 19 or 20, put an extraordinary amount of emphasis on their looks

• 1:27:24Speaker 03

  to the extent where it's their absolute life's focus. And they associate that with their SMV. Yes. Sexual market value, as you know. Yes. Okay, like their whole worth is in the shape of their, the amount of muscularity in their torso, the shape of their jaw, the distance between their eyes, their hairs, blah, blah. It's, it's that. It's maximizing your look so that you're more valuable and more attractive. And it started out among the incels, as you know. Yes. And then it's expanded now and really virally caught fire primarily due to Clavicular. Clavicular, yes. This guy.

• 1:28:07Speaker 03

  Who is, and I mean, if we would talk about him, I mean, just briefly, but he's, because he's, he's breaking bones in his face. Yes. He's chewing on all kinds of things for his jawline. He's, I mean, yeah, yeah, he's doing all of these things. Yes. And these posts are going viral. Yes, so he's, he's advocating conventional and unconventional things to maximize your looks, okay? Where the message, I think the overall message is terrible. Do you really want your, you know, entering into puberty, young men to be focusing at the, at the exclusion of everything else in their lives, their, their physical appearance, rather than becoming good humans? Right.

• 1:28:49Speaker 03

  And learning ethical things and gaining useful skills that will make them important members of society? No, it's the last thing you really want them to focus on. But unfortunately, they, they advocate doing some things that are really unconventional and crazy, and parentheses mostly don't work. For example, bone smashing, where they take a hammer, a blunt object, and smash various places on their face to try to get bony overgrowth. And they confused it, they confuse it and conflate it with this orthopedic principle called Wolf's Law, where if you put enough stress on a bone with muscle,

• 1:29:33Speaker 03

  the bone will grow in response to that stress. It doesn't work with intermittent trauma. All it's going to do is give you mini fractures and scars and bone cysts. It's, it's dumb. It's dumb maxing, I call it. It doesn't work at all. And then this thing about the other kind of gym, you know, gymnastics that they have, where they put their tongue at the roof of their mouth, and that's supposed to make your jawline and your platysma muscles under here more defined. That doesn't work. Okay. And then they talk about a lot of plastic surgery, that's fine. Then they also talk about unfortunately, very, very early steroid use. Yes, yes.

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  This is becoming, yeah, absolutely. So that is one, that is illegal, isn't it? Well, it's certainly illegal, but even more so, it's dangerous. And it arrests many parts of puberty. It causes early hair loss, acne, fertility, and, and stunts your growth. If you use testosterone early on. And this Clavicular guy has talked about and discussed and advocated taking steroids as early as 12 years of age. Plus, he takes it also to another level. He mixes that with illicit drugs. You know, he had an overdose recently and had to be taken to the hospital emergently.

• 1:31:01Speaker 03

  And so, I mean, the last thing you want to do is listen to this guy, Clavicular. You know, he knows, he's looked up on PubMed, which everybody has access to on the internet. So he knows a lot of the terminology that we use when we discuss testosterone and its byproducts and aromatase and various medications. So he's sort of superficially talking the talk, but just below that surface is, you know, zero, you know, helpful, useful information. He's the last guy to get your medical information. What do you suggest, parents, like parents of teenage boys

• 1:31:43Speaker 03

  who are now increasingly becoming aware of looks maxing? Yeah. And, and some beginning to participate? What advice do you have for us? So I think it's really important that you try, don't, as you know, it's the general parental principles of interacting with your kids. You know, find a way to communicate. Find a way to discuss with them without them feeling like you're judging them. Because once you judge, it's like telling them, you know, you're telling them stories about how you did coke in college and ecstasy and drank. You're not going to do coke and ecstasy in college. You're, I did that, and you're not going to do it. Well.

• 1:32:27Speaker 03

  Telling them not gonna do it, all that means is they're not gonna share it with you and they're gonna hide it from you. So I think an open dialogue where you talk about it in a very sort of plain vanilla wrapped way without, you're not condoning it, but you're also not overly criticizing it. You're just going, where's your head at with it? Try to figure out if they're even interested in it and have the pros and cons discussion and make them feel like they're part of the conversation rather than you're lecturing them. I know one person that you love, adore, obsessed with is Heather. Oh, my wife. Your wife, Heather. Obsessed.

• 1:33:11Speaker 03

  Who I didn't know is from the Bronx. Yes. Okay, cuz I'm from Queens. Okay. Okay, and when I read that she's from the Bronx, I said, oh, my gosh. Yeah. She must be the boss of the house. Oh.

• 1:33:24Speaker 03

  Well, she must be running things in the Dubrow household. So I'm just a participant, a lucky participant in Heather Dubrow's world. Yes, I know it. By the way, I'm a very lucky member of Heather Dubrow's world because to live in her sort of orbit, it's a very nice place to be. She's extraordinarily kind, funny, intense, and you better get your stuff together. Because when I met her, she said, I said, she said, what are you looking for in a woman? I said, I don't know, you know, a nice chest. You said that? No, no, I'm sure I made something.

• 1:34:09Speaker 03

  I know you did not say it. No, I didn't. I'm sure I said something that was calculated to have her like me. Yes. Because she was so amazing. And I said, what are you looking for in a man? She goes, a man with a plan. I said, oh. She goes, I don't wanna fool around. If I'm gonna be with someone, I'm gonna know that they wanna do things and they have a plan and they're gonna affect that plan and do it right. Heather is a person with a plan and Heather Dubrow's world is very curated, very dialed, and it's a really lovely place to be. I just show up. She says I show up like a surgeon walking into the operating room. Everybody has to sort of attend to me. But it's true, I come home and I just go whoosh, and I go, okay, what's next? What are we doing?

• 1:34:54Speaker 03

  Okay, you know, it's a really wonderful place to be. She's a wonderful, wonderful woman. Yeah, and you and Heather, you have an incredible family. I've seen the family photos. Yes. A matter of fact. Oh, you have one? A matter of fact. Bam! Bam, there we are. Right, the whole crew. The whole crew, four kids. Right there. Yeah, two of them, uh, three of them by IVF, one natural. Yes. Mistake.

• 1:35:24Speaker 03

  Both of my boys IVF. Really? Yeah. Wonderful, isn't it? Yeah. So do you have fraternal twins or? They're not, although you know what's interesting is that. Are they from the same? Yeah, they're from the same, and the younger, I think, is older. Isn't that interesting? Than the, yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's, but, but fatherhood, that clearly, that's also a life-changing endeavor. It really is. It's obviously very high priority. I'm a different kind of father than I bet you are and most people are. I'm much more, I'm being honest now, I'm much more into them as adults than I was as children. Really?

• 1:36:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. As children, I loved them, I would die for, I would do anything for them, obviously, but I wasn't really the, I didn't like to go to the games, luckily they weren't into it. I wasn't really into the hours long of reading them books, although I spent tons of time with them. I'm much more connected to them now than I was before. So as children, I guess I always felt, and this is really wrong, I'm just gonna say it, I always felt like they're not gonna remember a minute of this. So it's gonna really count as their memories really become mature and I can really have

• 1:36:54Speaker 03

  a long-term effect of it. I know that you never heard a man, it's sort of a, you know, not politically correct thing to say, but I was, I was great. Right. Okay, I was always there.

• 1:37:05Speaker 03

  But I didn't love the kid stage. I love this, love the stage now, the after fourteen, fifteen, you know, when I can teach them things. Okay, that's it. So that's what you both love. I love that. That you can impart these lessons. Yes. From life. Yes. Yes. Because, I mean, I think, I know a lot of things you do when they're children, form and inform who they become, but I really think it's sort of after thirteen that they develop into the person they're gonna be, and that's where I really started to, hey, let's talk now. Whereas when they were six, I was going, okay, let's play catch. How much longer is this catch gonna go on here?

• 1:37:46Speaker 03

  You know, and then I remember sitting down in my son's bed at fifteen, he was very not into school for a period of time and unfocused and didn't wanna do anything. I said, what am I gonna do with this kid? And I started to threaten him, you know, this life is not your life, this is our life. And I realized that, cuz I try to teach through kindness and I'm sweet. Yes. And so I thought, I did that, I go, that's not gonna scare him into being a better human and finding his focus in life. So I walked in the next day, I go, I go, you like this life? He goes, I do. And I go, okay, I'm gonna teach you something. Ready, I'm gonna teach you about money. And he goes, what do you mean, money?

• 1:38:31Speaker 03

  I go, we're gonna talk about money for an hour. He goes, okay, tell me about money. I go, okay, assets, liabilities, mortgage, interest rates. And he was like, and I got him a stock account that you can get at Charles Schwab for your kids. Yes. And, you know, my parents didn't have any money and Heather's parents had money, but it was verboten to talk about money. And, you know, our parents didn't manage their money well when they got older. I think, and so now I teach them, you know, money and the effectiveness of money and, you know, money doesn't buy you happiness, but lack of money sure buys you unhappiness sometimes. That increases, you know, my father, literally this morning, sent me a message

• 1:39:13Speaker 03

  around the importance of money giving you options. That's it. Yeah. That's everything. Yeah, this is, this is it. I have a final surprise for you. Oh. You ready for this? I hope it's a cat. I found the cat. This one is better than breast implants. Okay. Okay, you ready? Okay. Envelope. On my name, right? I would love for you to read that. All right. If you could.

• 1:39:43Speaker 03

  Terry.

• 1:39:46Speaker 03

  I don't know if I can read this.

• 1:39:51Speaker 03

  You've been in my life for almost three years. I stand by the fact that I've never been a smarter human being in my entire life, which is both incredible to witness and incredibly infuriating to argue with.

• 1:40:03Speaker 03

  Who knew all those years ago that we would build this extraordinary life together? Marriage, four amazing kids, books, podcasts, television shows, skincare lines, businesses, brand deals.

• 1:40:13Speaker 03

  And somehow through all of it, it still feels like we're figuring it out side by side in real time. One of my favorite things about you is the enthusiasm you bring to absolutely everything you do. You're like a dog with a frisbee in the best possible way. Laugh out loud. Once you sink your teeth into something, you refuse to let go until you've mastered it completely. That kind of drive is rare, and even after all this time, it still amazes me to watch. What's even more incredible is your ability to evolve after accomplishing absolutely everything you could have in general surgery and then plastic surgery. You pivoted and became board certified obesity medicine because you were genuinely fascinated by and wanted to help people in a bigger way. And then somehow, as if that weren't enough, you built this whole other career as a medical

• 1:40:55Speaker 03

  legal expert, completely immersing yourself in the law and all of its complicated layered nuances because you truly love learning and mastering new things. I think it's so interesting that our daughter Max originally thought she would follow your footsteps into medicine, but ultimately end up following you in the legal world instead. It makes perfect sense. Our children are a mix of both of us, but they truly got the best parts of you, your curiosity, your drive, your humor, your discipline, and your ability to care deeply about the people around you. You work harder than anyone I know, but you also laugh harder, dream bigger, and love your family fiercely. There is something incredibly comforting about being married to someone so relentlessly passionate about life.

• 1:41:36Speaker 03

  We are so lucky, almost thirty years later, and somehow it still feels like yesterday. Thank you.

• 1:41:46Speaker 03

  You are amazing, by the way. You are. You are. That letter is so beautiful. And to me, it is a depiction of who you are. You are so... You know what my impression is when I go back and tell my wife? Because she's... The first thing she's going to ask me is not how I was. She's going to ask me how you were. Right. I'm going to say, he's one of the most relentlessly passionate people about life that I've ever met.

• 1:42:19Speaker 03

  I don't know what to say. I just can't... You know, this has been... I've done many things. Interviews, podcasts, TV shows. This has been one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had, and I thank you for that. I'm with you. I've learned so much from you. I've laughed. I've laughed so hard I cried.

• 1:42:42Speaker 03

  I have learned... You've taken me through every emotion. And I truly appreciate your time. Truly appreciate your time. I wish you all the best. When you and your family are in London, I want you at a certain match. I'd love to. With... Oh, yeah. We were going to be right there on the pitch. Yeah. It's so obvious why you're so successful. You're such an amazing human being. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you get the one final question. Everyone gets this. Okay. It is, you have had some incredible conversations in your life. Yes. When you think about the most memorable, who was it with? And what did you learn?

• 1:43:27Speaker 03

  I mean, I... You know, I'm sure people say this. This is one of them.

• 1:43:33Speaker 03

  I know that's not the answer you're looking for, but this is one of them. We accept it. Thank you.

• 1:43:40Speaker 03

  I think I had a conversation with my mentor, Dr. Malcolm Lesevoi, when I was a general surgery resident in his laboratory, about being a doctor and being a plastic surgeon and what it meant.

• 1:44:02Speaker 03

  And he basically told me, it's not about the surgery. Anybody can do the surgery. It's not about the money. It's not about impressing people. It's about what you can do with the skills that you've acquired through incredible amounts of hard work and then ultimately talent

• 1:44:27Speaker 03

  to make someone's life different, better than you possibly ever... they ever possibly thought it could be. And that's the power of being sometimes a plastic surgeon, where you can take them to a place they never thought they could go and give them not only more confidence, but potentially... It's funny that I became the botched doctor. An absolute new lease on life. And that's... And that conversation is ultimately what sort of structured and informed me as a physician, as a surgeon, and a human.

• 1:45:08Speaker 03

  So that.

• 1:45:10Speaker 03

  Dr. Terry DeBro. Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:45:16Speaker 03

  Dr. Terry DeBro. I'm walking away with understanding how dangerous these surgeries are.

• 1:45:25Speaker 03

  How dangerous, especially when we're talking about looks-maxing.

• 1:45:31Speaker 03

  How incredibly dangerous that is. How important it is for all parents to be aware of looks-maxing, what it does and can do to your children. How... And literally, how deadly it could be. He had an assistant with him. And I asked her, what's Terry doing now? Is he going back to the office? She said, no, he's probably going to work out. He works out seven days a week. And it's interesting, he practices what he preaches. And that's another reason why I have so much respect for him. He is by far one of the most fit, mentally sharp, bright, youthful

• 1:46:16Speaker 03

  67-year-olds I've ever met. I love him. I love... You know, my wife arguably loves him more than I love him. But after this conversation, I could love him more than my wife loves him. I'm not blaming my divorce on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. But the truth is, the biggest question I have is...

• 1:46:41Speaker 05

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• 1:47:40Speaker 03

  To reach where she was always going to be? Or was I responsible for putting her in that world? And then that world created what happened now? I can't believe we're sitting here still talking about it. It's just nonsense. I wanted money. I wanted status. It is. But the madness hadn't started yet. What caused the implosion of everything that you had built? Me. They're casting for The Housewives. I'd never seen the show. Didn't know anything about it. But I believe that I had the most beautiful, charismatic, ferociously ambitious wife. And I wanted to show her off. I knew how to do it. So we did it. And the rest, unfortunately, is history. They create these scenarios that just [bleep] didn't happen. Are there any that you want to address?

• 1:48:26Speaker 03

  Suddenly, I'm looking at my wife and saying, who are you? Wow. Do you love yourself? Not yet. Are you proud of yourself? Nope. Do you respect what you've created? Nope. You don't? The only real victims are going to be the kids unless we're [bleep] careful. So I'm going to do all I can to protect them. Maybe I do need to talk.