GK Barry: I’m Finally Ready To Tell My Story

GK Barry became one of the internet’s biggest personalities, but this conversation reveals the Grace Keeling behind the fame, the jokes and the confidence. She reflects on being bullied at school, feeling desperate to fit in, and learning to make people laugh before anyone could laugh at her. Grace opens up about her relationship with her body, becoming obsessed with being thin, and how the attention that came with changing her appearance reinforced everything she believed about herself. She also speaks about witnessing racism through her dad Andrew, discovering her sexuality, and falling in love with Ella Rutherford - from the fear of letting people know to finding a relationship where she finally feels accepted for who she is. For the first time, Grace shares an experience from when she was 17 involving a 27-year-old man, and the years of confusion and self-blame that followed. She explains why she didn't report what happened at the time, the advice she was given by police, and how it took her years to understand what had happened to her and recognise that it wasn't her fault. Funny, honest and deeply vulnerable, this is GK Barry ready to tell her story. GK Barry, We Need To Talk Content warning: This episode includes discussion of sexual assault and disordered eating. We have included links to support charities and resources here: The Rape Crisis England & Wales 24/7 Support Line is available day and night on 0808 500 2222, with free online chat also available on their website https://linkly.link/2sHpO Beat Eating Disorders https://linkly.link/2sHpG MIND: https://linkly.link/2dx8b Follow us here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Sign up to our newsletter https://linkly.link/2eXHX Follow GK Barry here: https://www.instagram.com/gkbarry_/ https://www.tiktok.com/@gkbarry Buy Grace’s Book - It's Giving Life: A Guide to Surviving and Thriving: https://linkly.link/2sHqS (00:00) Intro (01:37) How Paul and Grace First Met (03:37) Grace vs GK Barry: What's the Difference? (06:53) Why Grace Wanted to Come on We Need To Talk (10:04) Growing Up Outside the UK (15:15) Stepdad's Impact on Grace's Life (18:38) Moving Back to the UK as a Child (26:10) Shopify Ad (27:23) Not Fitting In At School (44:41) Struggles With Appearance (52:45) Career Ambitions After Leaving School (57:06) Paul Surprises Grace With A Letter (01:07:23) The GK Barry Persona (01:10:06) How Grace Monetised Her Social Media Success (01:15:05) Grace's Rise From TikTok to Television (01:21:48) Huel Ad (01:22:55) Grace on Writing Her First Book (01:25:14) Grace Opens Up About Her Experience of Sexual Assault (01:37:47) When Grace Realised She Was Attracted to Women (01:42:16) How Grace and Ella Met (01:46:54) Why Grace and Ella's Relationship Works (01:52:43) Grace Reads a Letter From Ella (01:57:17) Grace's Love of Prosecco (01:59:48) Most Memorable Conversation (02:02:15) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Shopify: www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk Huel - http://uk.huel.com/WNTT use code WNTT for £10 off Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  I want to talk about something important, and it will help at least one person. But it's taken me this long to fully be like, no, that was actually really wrong. And this is the only podcast that I will talk about it on.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  We all love GK Barry, but I don't know how many of us actually know Grace.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you everything.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  So then, can we go back?

• 0:49Speaker 01

  At school, I was doing everything to try and be liked. So then I was like, the way in is to be funny. Then it's like, I've taken back that power. You're laughing because of me, and thank God it worked out.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  It sure did.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  And then I go, I'm a celeb.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Did you ever think, like, I wonder if all of these people at school watch this?

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I'm hoping maybe they were like, oh, she's actually all right.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  I know there's a story.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  There is a story.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  I can find us there, okay?

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Take your time with it.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  How do you feel about yourself today?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  I think Ella really gives me a lot of confidence. Sickening, isn't it?

• 1:29Speaker 02

  No, you know what? It is beautiful to see. Grace, can I give you a surprise?

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Bitch, can't believe she did that.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  This conversation includes Grace sharing her account of an alleged sexual assault, as well as discussions around body image and disordered eating. We've included support resources in the episode description. If these topics are difficult for you, please watch with care. We must note that the allegations of sexual assault have not, to date, resulted in criminal prosecutions. We report, but we do not adopt them.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Do you know we have met before? We've met, but we haven't met?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Oh, was I pissed? I was, wasn't I?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  See, you don't remember.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Oh, no, Paul.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Do you remember?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Wait, you're gonna have to give me context.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Are you telling me you do not remember?

• 2:18Speaker 01

  No, Paul, was it at, like, an event?

• 2:21Speaker 02

  You don't remember?

• 2:23Speaker 01

  You're gonna learn something about me, and that is that I block everything out.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  I don't remember anything. You could say to me, do you remember your birthday? And I'm like, no, I don't know a thing.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  I don't know, I don't know what that is about. But if you tell me, I'll remember. But what was, where was it?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  All right, so we met, but we didn't meet. It was backstage ITV for Loose Women.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  You were on the show?

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Fuck off.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Now, here's how we met and we didn't meet. And then here's my apology.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  All right. But doing the research for you coming in.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  I think I now get it. I didn't get it truly.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Was I amute?

• 3:02Speaker 02

  You were mute.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  So, so.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  On this, I had, so you've been on my radar for a long time.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Uh-uh.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  For a long time. I've been very impressed with how you show up, like, very confidently, very bold, right? But I realized that was GK Barry.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  So, when, so we're backstage. I was coming on Loose Women, and I was, like, in some kind of green room situation.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  You doing the wave?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. No, no, I'm not a wave.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Stay on Loose Women, we've got Paul. We've all been there.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  But, so, like, I'm way back in this green room, and I see you walk in the hallway. But I thought it was you. It was like a glimpse. It was like, oh my God, is that, like, I've never met. I want to go say what's up. But I was thinking you were going to be big, brash, bold, confident.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  You walked in.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Do you want to know why?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Why?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  On Loose Women, I think I've got a big bit of imposter syndrome on there. And to be honest, thank God we don't have guests anymore, because it was just constant. Like, I, when I'm on that panel, I am the smallest one, technically. Like, the audience don't really know me. They'll know me a bit more now, but I'm just very aware that the people aren't there to see me, and they also probably don't know me. So when a guest comes on, I'm very like, hi. And then I just sort of keep myself to myself, because I don't want them to be like, why is she talking to me?

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I'm always very mute. And thank God we don't have guests anymore, because I was literally just like a mute. And that was probably why.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  You, you were?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  I mean, it was, it was actually shocking to me.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Really?

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Because you were, to me, you appeared so different than who I thought you were, that I didn't even realize it was you.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  But that's, that's just me in person, anyway. Someone recognizes me on the street and goes, GK Barry. Then I'll be like, oh. But if no one's done that, I will just happily potter into a room and not say anything.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Really?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm very happy to do that.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  So are you, do you feel like you're more introverted slash shy?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh my God, yeah. Especially when meeting new people. I don't, if I meet new people that don't know me as GK Barry, then I'm very, very shy. But if I meet someone and they know it's me, like, I've walked in this today, and I'm like, Paul, blah, blah, then that's fine, because I can sort of, I've got that confidence to hide behind. But I'm not like that usually. I am very shy and really awkward. It keeps me up at night. So awkward.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Really?

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  So you know what I love to do then today?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Is I want to meet Grace.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I want to know Grace.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Right? Because GK, I think I get, and we all get.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  I think everyone knows that as well.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  And we all love GK.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  But I don't know how many of us actually know Grace.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think it's all glimpses of it in The Jungle, if anyone watched The Jungle.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Because it was quite hard to get. The first two days, I was giving it all that, and then I was so fucking hungry, I just went back to me. I was the most boring bastard. I didn't have any airtime for three days. It was so long.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Because, so we saw a bit?

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I was knackered and hungry.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  All right.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  But I will put down the GK Barry facade for you today.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  And we'll meet Grace.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  You shall.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  When we started this podcast two years ago.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  I had a list composed of the people that I most wanted to sit across from, and you were on that list.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  I can't believe that. Why?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know what I think it is? Is that, I think a lot of people might be in this category too, is I, the first thing I ever saw of you, I believe I saw you either talking about or with your dad.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Andrew.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  And I thought, oh my, that is, that's.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  She's so white.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Look at that all the time.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  I was like, how? Where? When did this happen?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  If I had a pound.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  And that is, that was like a hook.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  That intrigued me. And then I saw, like, clips of you on TikTok, and I was like, oh, she's hilarious, and da, da, da, da. And so that's how it started. But that was the hook.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  That's so funny. Thanks, Dad.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, there you go. There you go. So I've always wanted you on. So I'm just super proud that you're here.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  But you were mentioning that you wanted to only come on when you had something.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Of what?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Of, just of subst, I feel like with this pod, I'm a massive fan, by the way, because I think the stories that people tell on here are incredible, and I think they're also really vulnerable. And for me, if I was to get the opportunity to come on here, I didn't want to waste the opportunity talking about, you know, I became TikTok famous. You know, I wanted to be able to give something that people could watch and listen and actually take something from. And I wasn't ready, really, until, obviously, I wrote the book, and then I was like, I'm just gonna lay all my cards out, and if it goes Pete Tong, at least I've been on this podcast.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Really?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  So, so how do you feel, you know, in this moment?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  I feel nervous. I mean, to be fair, you calm the nerves a bit. You have. You're a very calming person. I'm sure you've probably been told that before.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Well, I appreciate it.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  But, yeah, very nervous. Like, literally this morning, I was like, oh, God. I've never really been nervous like this for a pod, because pods are pods. But this one, I feel like is. Quite a big, I don't know, a lot of people after this pod are gonna know me a little bit too well. And that is horror.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  So this is interesting.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Why is it horror for people to know you, to know you fully?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Um, well, I know I'm very open online, but it's what I have, it's funny stuff. So I don't, embarrassing stuff that I don't really care about. It's like, yeah, I pissed in the street once, what are you gonna do, arrest me, like, that's fine. Um, but when it comes to like, personal stuff, and I'm from a family that don't, we don't talk really about anything personal. I think, we don't even really say I love you, like, it's that, obviously, we love each other.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  But we're from, we're not open. So then to come on the internet and for people to know very intimate details about things that have happened does make me feel a bit, ooh.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hear you.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Cause it opens conversations then.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  And I hate conversation.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Well, you're at the wrong place.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  I know. I've been feeling it.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  But, but I tell you what, I totally hear you.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  And one of the things that I want you to know is that I'm so curious about you that it's almost, what we're going to do is, we're going to walk hand in hand.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Down this path of, of your life.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you everything.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  I will, I'll give you that, I will tell you everything.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. So then, can we go back?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Let's, let's start at the beginning.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Start at the beginning. All right, so where were you born?

• 10:36Speaker 01

  I was born in the UK.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Um, and then my real dad and mum moved to Virgin Gorda because he was retiring and he wanted to build them a house to retire in.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Interesting, so can I ask right there, is, how, how old was your birth father?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  My dad is well old, he is, I wanna say he's eighty now, eighties? Sorry to anyone watching this that is eighty. Um, but yeah, he was quite significantly older than mum, cause my mum is, I think she's turning sixty-seven.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  So there's a little bit of an age gap there, but they were in love and whatever. Um, so he wanted to retire and take my mum over there. And then that's where my mum met my other dad, Andrew, cause he was a firefighter out there.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Ah, okay, in the, in the Virgin Islands?

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Okay, you were how old when your parents divorced?

• 11:33Speaker 01

  I think I was about two.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  You were two, okay, so, so you were young, yeah. But, uh, your father, from what I understand, he moved to the States?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Then, okay. So, and you still maintain a relationship with him?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we're both quite bad at speaking on the phone, I would say. So, uh, we would speak on the phone occasionally and then, but also at this time, we'd moved to Tortola.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  So we were on a different island. Um, and then, get this, we moved back to the UK because my grandma, everyone was like, grandma's gonna die. She lived another twenty years. But we moved back to the UK for that, and then my dad obviously moved to the States. And there was a Christmas where they were like, right, um, you're gonna go to spend Christmas with your dad. And I was like, yeah, brilliant. And he'd, um, got with this other woman, um, who I'd never, I don't think I'd really met her before. So that was like my first time going to see him after, I think, properly.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Okay, and, and what was that experience like, uh, you know, seeing your father? He has another, you know, relationship, you're not interacting with him a lot?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  To be honest, I wasn't really asked, and not in a bad way, like, I've got mum and Andrew at home, who are like my core family, I would say. And then, I'd speak to my dad and I knew he was my dad, and I felt he was my dad as well. And then when I went to go see him, it just felt normal. I wasn't funny about the fact that he was with another woman. I was just sort of like, all right, this is, this is just it, and that's, that's fine. I'd never really deeped anything.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Like that, I never really have.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Okay, how do you believe your relationship with your dad?

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Has shaped who sits before me today?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think I've never really thought, more when it comes to relationships. Because I can see both sides of whatever happened in that divorce. I can very much see both sides of why both parties were doing what they did. But I'd say more when it comes to relationships, I am so

• 13:46Speaker 01

  on it with, I'm very aware, marriage is usually a lot of the time, I feel like it's, I get scared it's a curse.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Really?

• 13:55Speaker 01

  I do, yeah, I do, I'm very anxious about marriage. I feel like you don't know someone till you break up with them. I'm very on that because before all of this with any of my mum's husband, she hasn't had loads, with my mum's ex-husbands, they were all amazing until the breakup and then they just ruin her life.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  And that, that's stuck with me. And I think, yeah, because I'm not as close with my dad. You know, I'd get a bit torn over it, but I don't know if, I, I don't know how it has impacted me, really. I don't know if I've ever thought about it.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  You, you know, one thing I absolutely agree with you on is that you truly don't know anyone until they're hurt.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  You know? And I always say that you could, you could sense the strength of a relationship when you have a partner who is hurt. And then you watch, what do they do immediately after? Do they lean into their partner? Do they seek refuge and safety with your partner? Or do they admonish them, yell at them, hurt them because they're hurt?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Do they go to someone else? That's a pivotal, you know, moment, so, so I'm with you. And I think that it's so observant of you as a, as a young girl to witness those things and just say, I don't want that.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, mental note.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you, you saw your mum hurt quite a bit then, when you were little?

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Well, she never really, and also she's been great at, she's never really spoken badly about my dad to me. She's always made it very like, you go and do what you wanna do and you can make your own mind up of whatever that you want to make up. And I think that's helped because I think if she was like, he did this, he did that, or I did this, then it would have swayed any opinions and maybe my connection with him possibly. So, yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Okay, can we talk about dad Andrew?

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  All right, so dad Andrew is the hook for me, becoming interested in you, right?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  And, and the hook for me was, he's black.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. He is in fact black, yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  He's in fact black, right? And, and the reason why that was so interesting to me is because I thought that was your birth dad. So then I thought you were mixed race.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  And I thought that you, then I thought that there was a, a different experience that you had. But I would imagine that you still have had a unique experience growing up with a dad.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Who is a black man.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Massively.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  And so, just in, how old were you when Andrew and your mother got together?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I'd say, I don't know, one or two.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, so this, so he, so he goes back, back, back with you?

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Oh, he literally, yeah, he raised me.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  And then obviously we lived out there and he taught me everything. We lived, uh, right by the beach and I had, I had cornrows. And I also at that age didn't register, and I know this is cliche, but I didn't register black and white, right? I knew I was white and I knew other people were black that were on the island, but I just thought

• 17:09Speaker 01

  I was just maybe a bit paler. I didn't really sort of put, do you know what I mean?

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a difference.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  I did put the two and two, I had cornrows and I was open like coconuts on the beach with my hands. I had an incredible start.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Of life. I was trying foods that people would not normally try. I was literally just living the most amazing life. Um, and obviously, I'd only sort of known that, and then when I moved back to the UK, I was like, oh, everyone's white, like, everyone looks like me. Um, and then I also sort of got introduced to racism to my dad. And then that's when I was like, oh, not everyone has been raised. This, even down to like, you know, sometimes you go to someone's houses and they only eat chicken nuggets and chips?

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  And I'll be like, do you wanna just try anything? And they're like, no, no.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  I've been, all my life, just been like, try that. I'm like, yeah, all right. And that's how I found incredible food and like different cultures and just embracing all of it.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  But a lot of people that haven't left the UK don't ever experience that. And that, to me, was crazy when I moved back here. I remember that.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  It must have been a massive culture shock.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, for you.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  So what got you here then was your grandmother then? Is that what, why the family moved?

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were like, she's gonna die. She stayed alive for quite a long time, actually. And she was in really good health, actually. I think she was milking it a bit, to be honest. But yeah, we moved back and obviously, this is home. But that was, and I went to a really, really small Christian school.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Okay, and where was this?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Chievely, in Newmarket.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Newmarket, okay, okay.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  And how old were you at that time?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  I wanna, I wanna say like six or seven-ish.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Seven-ish. That's so interesting because I didn't realize, but this is all making sense now.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  So then when you come to the UK, to Newmarket, you have, do you still have the cornrows?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  No, I did have to get rid of them. I'm pretty sure I came back with them. And then we swiftly got rid of them. Because I don't think, I remember everyone in primary school just had ponytails and I was like, okay, I get it.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  This is what we're doing.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Did you have an accent?

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I sounded a bit like Sean Paul. And that is, yeah. I remember my dad saying he had this Caribbean twang, like walking into a classroom saying, shaba. Like, it was, it was mental.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  That was wild.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  But then I went the opposite way. I went really posh.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  This is what happens?

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Why do you think you did that?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Just to, I think, fit in. I was like, learning how everyone spoke. And I was like, okay, this is how I'm gonna speak. And then I just sounded like Queen Liz.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Look at that, look at that, that quick, that quick switch.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  So my boys are 12 and 15 now. And when they came over from, from America, they, and to this day, so they've been here for, you know, eight, nine years. They've held on to their American.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Really?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Just the accent piece. And I think the reason why is they feel like it gives them, and they're gonna hate me for saying this, but it feels like it makes them cool.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I get you.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  You know?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  At that age then, your father, this is the first time that Dad Andrew is now in England.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  And you said that's the first time that you experienced racism. You saw it firsthand.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  What did you see?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Down to, I mean, we moved also back with hardly any money. So my dad was like, right, I'm gonna get, I'm a firefighter, but also a paramedic. I'm gonna get a job here. Straight away, they were like, nah, no. So you couldn't get a job that way. So the only job he could get was in a factory. He was working in a factory and then during the day, I wanna say he was like helping rent cars. And he was, like, he was constantly working and only sleeping for a little bit. And I remember we'd be walking down the street and someone spat at him. And obviously called him, whatever. And then I was like, that's really weird.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  And down to even when I'd be at school and he'd drop me off, you could tell people were like, why is he dropping her off? Or even picking me up.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Are you okay? That's my dad, you know? Sort of stuff like that. I think I'm very sensitive to that now. I think, because until you've, I think until you've lived with someone or been close to someone that has experienced that, you don't, you don't see the subtle racism in things that people do. And that, yeah, that's why I feel like I'm really, sometimes I think I can be a bit too woke with it. They're like, I didn't mean that. I'm like, yeah, but subtly, you, do you know what I mean? But it's because I'm very hypersensitive to it.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. How does it feel to witness someone spit on your father?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  I just think it's, I, it is bizarre as well because, again, the cultures are different. When you move over there, no one's going, oh, you're white. You're just accepted and everyone's like, welcome, you know? But when you come over here, there's so much, and not just here, there's a lot of other countries, but there's so much hatred. And I just don't, I've never really understood that. Because if you got to know my dad, he's great. He's like the night, he will help anyone. If you've lived somewhere where you're not meeting people of different cultures, you're not gonna know and you're not gonna understand. And I think it's more the small, small-town mindset than it is actual hatred.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  The hatred, yeah.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  What do you think that does to you? And I'll give you a personal experience. Is that, I remember when I was younger,

• 23:00Speaker 02

  we, like, my parents saved up and they took us abroad. They took us to Germany. And I was like, oh, this is incredible, right? So we're in Germany. I remember we went out to, we were, we were gonna go out to this special fancy dinner. And we all get dressed to go to this dinner. And we're going to the restaurant. We have reservations. And, you know, I'm this kid and I see my father go up to the, to the front. And I can see how they're reluctant to let us in. They don't wanna let us in.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  And I didn't fully understand what was happening. But what I witnessed was this man that I consider to be everything, being reduced to nothing.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  And it hurt. Like, it hurt.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  And it was the first time that I realized, and I almost hate to say it, but I almost realized, wow. Like, I viewed him as someone who could do anything.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  And then for the first time, I saw a limitation on him. Then I began to think, okay, so that must mean, so if this man, who's the king to me, is limited, this must mean I am severely limited.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  You know? So what does it do to you to witness someone spitting on your father or calling him derogatory terms?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  It does make me hate everyone a little bit. I'm just like, because who else, it's always, in England, in America, they're quite verbal with it. So at least you know where you stand.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Even though it's not right, at least I'm like, okay, you, you're racist, so at least I know to stay away from you. In the UK, they don't outwardly say it. They'll do subtle things. So it made me be like, what is everyone's views? And I'm really on edge because I would, so I've dated people and then they'll suddenly make a comment and I'm like, oh, so you have these views too? And it made me, it makes me so pissed off. But my dad, and what I, even though he shouldn't have to act this way, I get really angry. But he's just like, it just shows more about them.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Look at that.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  And then I was like, oh, okay. Because if he reacted angrily, it would like confirm to the other person, yeah, look, I was right. So he always deals with it just like, whatever. So I do need to be a little bit more like that, but I do think it's quite difficult.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, very, very hard, very hard. And something tells me that you would not be, like, you're the one to say something.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Well, do you know what it is? I'm not even confrontational. So like, I'll get really upset if, to be fair, this hasn't happened as well recently, that I know of. But I'll get really upset for him and really angry and I'll just slag him off to my dad. And he's just like, it's fine, like, it's not fine, but, you know, it's just, it's just who they are. They're a weirdo. They've never, they've never left their town. Like, why would you be upset about someone like that's opinion? And I'm like, I suppose when you put it like that.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, look at that, look at that. I think that's such an incredible outlook to have. And I think that there's a whole generation that was kind of on this front line of civil rights, not just in the US but in the UK. And I give them so much respect and reverence because I just don't understand like how, how like introspective they are about it, you know?

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's a blessing, you know, it's a blessing to have.

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• 28:12Speaker 02

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• 28:33Speaker 02

  From what I understand is, school was tough for you.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Primary school was alright.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, that was sort of a fit, straight in after, made friends. And then, everyone at my primary school went to a secondary school.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  That I wasn't in catchment for. So I was the only one that went to Soham.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  And I remember, you know the first assembly you ever have and they read out schools and you put your hand up? I remember, I don't know why they do this, they went, "Chievely", and I put my hand up and everyone giggled and I was like, "Right", that was hell.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Alright, so now, so that was the school that you'd just come from?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, so Chievely's primary, Soham secondary.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Okay, so you're the only one from your school?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Now, why did, why did people laugh at that?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  I don't know, I think it was just because it was my singular little hands. And I had a really, I had a bob at the time, there was probably a lot going on there.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  And you didn't even do that, you, you did-

• 29:36Speaker 01

  I did the finger, famously.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  It was the finger?

• 29:39Speaker 01

  I did the finger, yeah.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Grace, that's why, you did the finger.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  I know, I did that.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Well, so you, so you started as different?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and I was also, I would say, not generically good-looking either. And I was quite weird, so automatically, I mean, I was just sort of asking for it there, really, to have a tough time.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Okay, can, can we talk about body image?

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  You know, it wasn't until this podcast, talking to so many incredible women, that I fully could understand and begin to appreciate the,

• 30:22Speaker 02

  unfortunately, the value that society places on looks.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Disproportionately for young girls, right? Because when I was coming up, like, quite honestly, I wasn't thinking about how I looked, how my friends looked. But I realize now, that was privilege in this patriarchal society.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  That's so funny that you were never thinking about how you looked.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Not once.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Not once.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Now, I see, it's interesting, it could be generational as well, because my oldest is 15, and he's begun to like, really-

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  -take care of himself in terms of physically, but honestly, like, maybe by the time I was 18, or 17, I started thinking about it. So, you were ultra-conscious of this?

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Little.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  And I was very skinny, I've always been very skinny when I was younger, so skinny. And I remember, that was like, it was just sort of my thing. I was really skinny, I was really proud of it, because everyone, at that time, it was Kate Moss, Cara Delevingne, Paris Hilton, and it was the skinny era. And I was like, "Right, this is how I'm gonna fit in here, because I'm thin." But then it sort of also turned into, I've never really had much control in my life, because at school, it was, I never really properly fit into any type of group, even up until now.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  You know, like, our job isn't, you know, every day you have structure, nine to five, I don't know where I'm gonna be tomorrow, the next day. So the only thing that for me, I could have control in, was that I'll be the skinny one, or I'll be the skinniest in the room.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  That's interesting.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  So, so how did you achieve that?

• 32:11Speaker 01

  So, you know Tumblr?

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  So, back in the day, everyone had their own Tumblrs at school.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you have to explain, because Tumblr is no longer there.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  People are probably like, "What's Tumblr like?"

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Thank god, probably, so Tumblr's sort of like a, I don't know what it would be, I guess it's kind of like Instagram, but you're not posting your own pictures.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  You're reposting loads of others and you all have themes. Mine was a depressed Tumblr, obviously, and it was like, black and white. And I started looking on there, and there was this, I came across this page called Thinspo. And it was basically loads of people who were in very active eating disorders, being like, "I weigh this much, I've eaten this much, and this is how much I've lost." And I was like, "Oh, they're losing quite a lot." So I then started reading all the Thinspo and what other people were doing. And I was like, "How can I follow this?", so I started following it. And then I'd also, to give myself motivation, it's so fucked up saying it, but to give myself motivation, I put on my Tumblr loads of pictures of really, really skinny girls.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  So if I felt hungry, I'd just go back and look at that and be like, "Well, you're not gonna look like that if you have-"

• 33:20Speaker 02

  If you eat-

• 33:21Speaker 01

  -a Victoria sponge. And that was, and then at school, I remember, I wouldn't eat, and then my mum clocked that my, um, account, no money was going out of it from my school lunches, I was like, "Fuck, sorry", so I'd buy a panini, and I'd give it to my mate. And then, then it would go the opposite way, as soon as I came home, or however long, I'd be ravenous. I would eat everything, I'd literally eat the whole fridge worth, so hungry, and then I'd start again. And I don't think I had an eating disorder, I don't think it ever went that far.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  And, and, and the desire was so that you could do what socially?

• 34:07Speaker 01

  I think it was to be, like, accepted. I think, back then, it was cool to be thin, it was attractive to be thin, and if I didn't have it face-wise, or was a bit weird, at least I could have that, because I'm thin. And it felt like I could have that one-up, on if anyone was mean to me, "Well, I'm thinner", which is really toxic, but that was like, my mindset.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  So that's, yeah, that was the drive.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  That was the drive. Isn't it so interesting, when you reflect back?

• 34:35Speaker 01

  It's so stupid.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  And, yeah, you, you, you look at the things that you did, you had to sacrifice, in order to socially be accepted.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Now, do, do you believe that ultimately, you were accepted socially?

• 34:52Speaker 01

  No, not then, that was a waste of time. But, now, yeah. When I lost, I lost a lot of weight, I'd say about two years ago, a lot. And I have never had that much, not from like, people fancy me, but interest in me, or people, you know, checking on me, and "You look amazing, wow, you're looking cra-" I've never had so many compliments as when I was that thin. And I think it's, people do treat you differently. And then from that, I was like, "This, this is it, that is the way to be."

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Look at that.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Look at that. And, and so this is within the last few years?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  You're saying, okay. So, so then, would you say that even commercially-

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  -things were different for you?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say, even down to, more people were taking pictures of me, or more, there was more engagement on my stuff, like, I think people were finding me a bit more attractive. They were like, "What's happened to the Gigi, she's had a glow up", like, there was all this positive reinforcement on the fact that, and also, I wasn't even big to have had this massive weight loss transition, like, I just became really, really thin, even though I was thin before. And it was just like, everyone started treating me differently. And that felt really good.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, but now going back to you, um, in, um, in school, you said that despite you losing the weight, you still were not socially accepted.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was fuming at that. So I was doing everything, everything to try and be liked. Like, looking back, embarrassing levels.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Lying, um, going up to like, a popular group of girls and be like, "I just heard Sam said this about you", Sam hadn't said that, but I just wanted them to be like, "Oh, thank you for telling it", do you know what I mean, I wanted to be able to get into their group, like insane levels to be liked, it was, yeah. It's weird.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  So, but you feel like you were never accepted?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Why, why do you say that?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Because I know they were just taking the piss out of me. And there was one instance, oh my god, this is, this keeps me up at night to this day, Paul. There was one instance where there was this girl, and she, we were in the same form, and she was like, "Grace", you know the Cup song out of Pitch Perfect?

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  She was like, "Grace, I tell you what, like, why don't we post on each other's Facebook walls, singing the Cup song, so you post you singing it on my wall, and then I'll post it on your wall", and I was like, "Oh my god, like, I think she wants to be friends with me", so I'm gonna do it. I did it, by the way, I can't sing. I did it, and I'm waiting, I'm waiting for her to post back. She doesn't post back, and it was just so everyone could take the piss out of me. And that was like, the worst, that was horror. And that's when I clocked, I was like, "They, they just are taking the piss out of me", but it didn't stop me, still carried on trying.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  You still, still did it?

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  You still did it?

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  You know, when you are ostracized like that, you know, and you're the only one, you know, where is your safe space?

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Well, I had a best friend called Kim.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Who floated about, but I'd say, no one really sort of got us, so it was just always me and Kim. And she was also black as well, so I think, and we're in a very white school, so people aren't really dealing with that.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  People think I'm weird, so we stuck together, and she was my safe space.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  You know what, I love what you just said?

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  You said, "She was also black".

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, not that I'm black, but I meant, in the sense of, no, I'm white.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  No, no, no. No, I'm, I'm gonna give you the card, I'm gonna say, "You can come over",

• 38:55Speaker 01

  I just meant-

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Grace, you can come over, you can come over.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  No, I meant the cookout, what I meant was-

• 38:59Speaker 02

  You can come to the cookout, you just bring your-

• 39:02Speaker 01

  But I meant she was black, so like, in that school-

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  -no one's really given her time of day, and I was weird. And I was like, "You know what, it's us, it's just us two, queen", so, yeah, we just spent every day together, and that was, yeah, she was my ride or die, because if I didn't have her, that would have been hell and horror.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So, so here's a stat.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  One out of six school aged children experience cyber bullying now.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  So bullying, we'll put it in the bullying category. So you put yourself in that, in that category then, because that example that you just gave me, that was cyber bullying, the Facebook example.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, do you know what's difficult? I know I had a tough time at school and I would say that I was, but it wasn't, I wasn't getting shoved over in the hallways. I wasn't getting beaten up, I wasn't getting my head flushed down a toilet, but people were mean to me, especially online. And listen, don't get me wrong, I tried to give it back as well. I'm not an innocent bystander, but I wasn't to the level that they, they were treating me. And I think mine was like self, self defence a little bit. Because on social media, you could say, at the time, they were tweeting horrible stuff about me, or saying awful things, laughing at me, blah, blah. So it's like, oh, I'm gonna have to think of something to say back, to sort of defend myself.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  And that was the issue with social media, because it doesn't stop at school. It carried on. And I literally became addicted to my phone. I had to be seeing what everyone was tweeting.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Really?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Is it about me?

• 40:39Speaker 02

  So, so these were people in the school just tweeting crazy things about you, like what?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  There was once a photo, I lost my virginity, and the guy the next day told everyone I laid there like a dead fish. Well, there was this girl, wish her well in hell, and she posted this photo of like the ugliest fish I have ever seen in my entire life. It was collapsed. I also think it was dead. And she was like, guess who this looks like? Everyone's taking the piss in the comments. Or you know the sly little things where it's an indirect?

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  All stuff like that. And you, you know it's about you. And it's, it's just constant. And they'll also then, in group chats, they'll add you to a group chat and remove you, so you can't say anything, but you can see everything they've said about you. That happened a lot.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  You don't consider that bullying?

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Not, I don't know, I just think people, yeah, but I do think people are also very, they're just not nice when they're younger.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Like, I think as well, at my school, I don't think anyone was nice. I think that might just be school, but they're all assholes.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, when, when I look at that, that's bullying.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  You know, I think with, with bullying, it's, it's, I, I think it's about the, the power dynamic, which, which is what really makes it bullying. And the fact that it is continuous.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  So you are, in that group, you are, from a, from a social standpoint, or a strength standpoint, you're a minority. There's a majority. Anytime a majority is, is, is, is inflicting pain

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  on the minority, that's bullying. And then it's continuous. So that's, that's, that's, that's bullying.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  That's bullying. You know, but your response though is interesting, because I can now, it's so interesting, because I now see where G K Barry comes from.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  I see the roots. I think the roots are there.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  I think the roots are in that moment of, you know what? You're gonna do this to me. So I'm going to do what? I'm gonna counter it with?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  I'm gonna come back at you.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I, that was my thing. I always had to one up or do something. Even down to, I was like, right, I'm not conventionally pretty, whatever. So I remember seeing, you know Miranda Hart?

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  That's my bitch. I love that woman. And I, my parents bought me her box set of The Miranda Show.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  And I sat, watched the entire thing, the whole bunch of series, and I learnt, line for line, everything. So I knew everyone thought she was funny, right? And then I'd go back into school and I would just give some of the lines.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Literally?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  I would literally give some of the lines in like such fun, or like, just the, just as, I also galloped a bit like she did, but she, that was weird for me. She made that quite funny. But I was just doing stuff that she would do that I knew people laughed at, and it also then also got laughs. So then I was like, right, this is a way in is to be funny. And, and that did work.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  That, that, that blows my mind.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  The fact that you didn't even like attribute it to her, you would just drop a line.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Just here and there, a bit of such fun. Or like anything random that she'd said, I would just drop it in convo. And I remember it would get laughs and I was like, yeah, this, this is how to get people to like you.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Where did the self deprecation start? Was it there?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  That was school, yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  That was school, okay.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Because it was straight away, you've got no ass, you've got no tits, you've got weird teeth, you've got a massive nose. You look weird, your posture's weird. So I would then say it before anyone else could say it. As soon as I'd walk into a room, like, sorry my ass looks flat in this, as then, because then they wouldn't say it, because I've already, but what's the point? I've already done it and I've already made a joke out of it.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  So you've got to think of something else. And also, it does get the most laughs. Self deprecation, really, like, people love that. And I kind of love it too.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  You love, do, do you love, what did you start to love about it though? Because you're poking fun at yourself. Everyone who's laughing, they're laughing at the joke.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Sort of agreeing.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  So they're sort of agreeing?

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  What, what was it that made you?

• 45:21Speaker 01

  I just think it was people laughing. I was like, oh, well, I'm obviously not gonna stand up here and do a knock knock joke. So let me just do something that's about me. And also, I think I was quite used to being laughed at anyway, just because of how I looked. So for me, if I could make it first and they still laugh, then it's like I've taken back that power. You're laughing because of me. Not because, does that make sense? Because you've said it about me.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  I don't know if that makes sense.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  It does, no, it does.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  It, it does, it does. Can, can we explore something you've now said multiple times? And that is, is I wasn't conventionally pretty. I didn't look good.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Horror.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  All right, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's go there.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  No, Paul, horror.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Let's go there.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  So we, you are how old at this time?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  I'm gonna say, this would have started year seven, year eight, so like eleven?

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Eleven, okay, so eleven, twelve.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Where I think a lot of people are beginning to, begin to, to form their identity.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  So visually, what, how did you view yourself?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Slender man, very, very tall, lanky, and I'm hunched because all the boys are shorter than me. And I'm like, well, I'm not gonna sit here and tower over them. That's weird. At the time, I thought it was weird. Now I think that's quite cool. And then I've got this Victoria Beckham haircut, short at the back, long at the front.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Crazy teeth. My mum used to call me gravestone.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Did she really?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Pale, yeah, pale, pale skin, extremely pokey, see my veins, hairy arms, hairy legs. Because to be honest with you, it was quite long, shaved my legs, they were so long. Just everything about greasy hair. Because to be honest with you, I was just, didn't really look after myself that much. So I looked like a hot mess. And I was so aware of that. So, and there was also nothing I could really do about it, because that was just how I was built.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Okay. So, so your identity was that you didn't feel like you were attractive at all?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  No, and no one made me feel attractive at all. It was like I felt it, but also everyone else felt it.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  How so?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  It was like people, you know, people would come up to someone at school and be like, oh, they have a crush on you. But they're taking the piss because you're really ugly, that. Or people would make comments about my teeth or the way I looked, or just everything. So it was just sort of confirmed to me that, yeah, you are a mess, which is great.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  What about at home? Were you told that you were

• 48:15Speaker 02

  pretty, or were you told that you were, you know, that you looked good?

• 48:20Speaker 01

  My dad, Dad Andrew, he is always like, you are so gorgeous, like you're the most gorgeous girl, like you're so cute. He, but it's my dad's, so like, I could literally have my head chopped off and he'd be like, oh, you look so good. You know, I know he'd say that anyway. And me and mum, me and mum banter each other, because she was built the same way. So she, we both have no ass, I both, I had gravestone teeth, like, yeah. It was just sort of a thing that we all laughed at. But I don't think it was my parents that drilled it into me. But also my parents, we just didn't really speak about it. Like, I never was like, I'm really self conscious, because my parents would be like, people are dying, get on with it.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Right. So, so all these, these, these, these challenges, these issues, they were little in your mind compared to bigger issues in the world.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's, it's, obviously it was big for me, but I wasn't gonna go to my parents about it because that just felt really stupid. Even now, I think if I was like, mum, I feel ugly, I think she'd be like, okay. Why are you telling me?

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Why are you telling me?

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  How do you feel about yourself today?

• 49:36Speaker 01

  I feel a bit more confident today. I've got glam teams, that does actually really help. But I think it's mainly Ella. I think Ella really gives me a lot of confidence. I will walk into a room looking like dishevelled Hagrid. She's like, oh, you look really nice today. What? But I think, because I only really care about what she thinks.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Then I feel quite confident. I think if I was single, it would be very different.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Because for Ella, it was like that.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  I say, like, that underscores the power of love.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Like, all the time. Like, you, you, you get it from that person that you love.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  But it's interesting. So you don't consider yourself compelling physically today?

• 50:15Speaker 01

  I'm more, more compelling. I think I, I like how long my legs are now. I don't really care about my nose. My mouth I could work on. It's a bit of a weird shape. But I'm not, I'm not too obsessed about anybody. I wouldn't get any work done. If you asked me that ten years ago, I would absolutely get everything done. Whereas now I'm just very set on, this is just what I look like. I don't really care.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Interesting. You know, my wife and I were watching the Netflix show Missing You.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  We're watching Missing You.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  And we're watching it, we're watching it. And the scene comes on. And we both said, I think what's what's great about myself and my wife is that we can, we both talk about someone's beauty, you know, openly.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  With no jealousy.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  With no jealousy, right? And we said, this is one of the most beautiful women we have ever seen.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Was that by me?

• 51:19Speaker 02

  It was you.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  What the hell?

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, we didn't know it was you.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  No way.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  No, I swear, we did not know it was you. And so the scene, you know, the scene, cause it's.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Oh, cause I'm like moisturizing me toes, yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  There's like blank, there's like sheets.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  And all kinds of things. And, um, and we said, uh, I was like, we gotta find out who this is.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Real story.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  I needed that, Paul.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Real story.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  Real story, yeah, yeah. It was, I was like, oh my gosh, look who it is.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  What the hell?

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. So, so to, that's why I find it, I always find it interesting. How someone views.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  How, how you view yourself.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  I don't think anyone is like, yeah, I am ten, ten. And I don't, really don't believe anyone thinks that.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  I bet you Ella does.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  What, about herself?

• 52:15Speaker 02

  No, you.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Oh, you're saying self.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  About, yeah, about self.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Oh, no, unfortunately.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Some people do.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  The ego talks, a lot of people like, you know, you know, a matter of fact, I think a lot of guys, unfortunately.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  They over, I think this is a gender difference. I, I think, cause you know, and I know this from studying relationships, is that most men overvalue themselves in terms of how they look, how, you know, what they bring to the table. Most women undervalue.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Themselves. And I find that to be like, almost a hundred percent of the time.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  People don't like a confident woman.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  I, I, it is intimidating to many people.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  I think more men, I think, when I've ever met a confident woman, I'm like, wow, like that is so cool.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Especially if I walk into a room that's, Catherine Ryan.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  I think her energy is incredible. When she walks into a room, she has all the men like that, just ready to listen to her. But I think when sometimes a man sees that, they get on the defense and they, they start not being very nice.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  So.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, very much so. I agree, I agree. So, what, what did you aspire to be when you were in school?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Nothing, I've never, ever in my life known what I wanted to do, never. I've never looked at a career and gone, apart from, I wanted to be a pussycat doll, but that obviously, that wasn't gonna happen because I can't sing, but that was the only time I was like, yes. But I've never, when I was looking at colleges, what to do at college, I wasn't looking at

• 54:00Speaker 01

  a future job, I was looking at what sounds fun, what's the easiest thing to do? And that's, to be honest, how I've done my whole.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  That was it?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Life, yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  So, what was, what excited you then in school?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Boys, at the time, I would say. Attention, just to sort of, my, at school, I was just like, I feel like I'm winning if, if I've got a boy's attention, which is hilarious now because I couldn't give shit. But like, back then, that was how all the popular girls always had a boyfriend, or like someone that was into them. So I was like, right, I need a boyfriend, and that was my mission.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  That was it?

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  That was it, you were like, if I can get a boyfriend.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Then.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  People are gonna think I'm actually really cool and attractive because I've got a boyfriend.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  That was, that was what I went to school for.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  All right, so you got one?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, got a few.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  Got a few?

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Okay, how'd they go?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Awful, like, they were, one had a lot more gum than tooth. My first one, very unhygienic, awful. Second one, said I laid there like a dead fish, but he had problems at home. Other one lived in a hostel, had half a tooth, used to deal drugs. And then another one went to jail for 21 counts of assault, had a baby, didn't speak to.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Wow, really?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Wow, that's, okay, that's a resume.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  And for me, I was like, this is great, he's a great man.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, oh my god.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  Oh my god, okay, so it was just to have anyone, just to have someone?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the bar was on the floor, obviously, because I was going for felons, but like, I just thought, anyone I can get out, I'll take, just to reaffirm that I'm attractive.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Look at that, look at that. We've talked about your parents quite a bit. So as their relationship evolved, right, and you saw their love blossom, what would you say your biggest takeaway was at that time around a relationship and around love?

• 56:09Speaker 01

  I feel like I understood what pressures would get to a relationship, like I saw, like what to look out for, money, or other people's input from the outside. I learned what caused arguments, but I also learned a communication where they might shout at each other, but then after that, they're speaking it out and they're making up, that was one thing, making up. A lot of people don't make up, they just sort of push it under the carpet.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  I used to be guilty of that as well, because I used to just think, oh, we'll just, whatever, we'll forget about it. But seeing my parents, they always make up, and I think that's really important because then nothing builds, it's just a clean slate. And I think me and Ella do that, although I'm really stubborn.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, I can see, I believe you are.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  I can see, from, from meeting Ella and seeing you two, your dynamic real quick is, I could tell you're the stubborn one.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Oh, so I'm so stubborn, don't get it wrong, she's also stubborn, let's not get that twisted.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay, okay.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  I'm more, it would kill me to say sorry first.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  Really?

• 57:20Speaker 01

  I do it sometimes when I really know I fucked up.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  But it would, it really would kill me.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  To say, I'm sorry.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Cause I just feel like, embarrassed, what I mean, like.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Grace, can I give you a surprise?

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, always.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  All right, you have to close your eyes.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  All right, all right, you gotta trust me on this, you gotta trust me on this. All right, here it comes, here it comes, ready?

• 57:42Speaker 01

  God, what is it?

• 57:43Speaker 02

  And, open up.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  If you could give that a read.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm being invited to Buckingham Palace, I love it, it's like a thick envelope as well.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  It's a very good, very heavy, count letter.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Okay, oh god, super my parents, terrified. Right, am I reading out?

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Please.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Okay. When Grace first started on her venture to become one of the most funny, talented, and hugely popular influencers of today, we wondered what route this journey would take. We need not have had any concerns. Grace has always been a strong character, and even from the very early days in university and working, she showed commitment, hard work, determination, such work ethics that continue with her very much so today. If there, it therefore comes as no surprise to us that her ever rising popularity and entertaining humor has brought her to this exciting chapter of her life. Needless to say, we are extremely proud of you, Grace, and who you have become.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Long may many chapters be added to this one. Love, Mum and Dad. Did they actually write that?

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Yes, they did.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  How did you manage that?

• 58:57Speaker 02

  We're good.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  That's crazy, Paul, that is so cute.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  What stands out to you the most in that letter?

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Do you know what, I mean, they've always said, like, I was, I've been quite a strong character, and I've always had, I know I've always had quite a, um, good work ethic, but it's quite funny that they, that it's no surprise to them that I ended up here, I find that quite funny, because I don't know, I think for a while, they were actually a bit terrified that, like, what was I gonna do?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  But it's nice to know that they.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  They're happy with that.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Thanks for saying you're proud. My dad does say that all the time, but my mum, you have to really poke that out of.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  That's the part that stood out to me the most.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  There's something when I think a parent says that.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  Because you know they mean it.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they wouldn't lie.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  That is really cute.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love it. I'll hold on to that.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  And then I'll give that.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Just put it back in the envelope.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Thank you so much. So now.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, God, I can't put it back in the envelope.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  No worries, no worries. So you said that you didn't think that they were confident in your career.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. I would hand on heart say that. I think they'd agree.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  So they were concerned.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  And this is when you started TikTok in particular.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  This was even before.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  This was college, pre uni. I didn't have wanted to go to uni. But my dad was like, you're going to uni. You were not staying in Soham.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  You were going.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Regardless of.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Regardless. So I knew when I started college, I had to do an extra year to get my master's G C S E. And so then I could actually go to college.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  And so I was like, right, I'm gonna go to, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna go to uni. And luckily I found a filmmaking course, but I didn't really care. Just thought it would be easy. And then started uni, started doing TikTok. My parents had not, they still don't really understand it. They were like, okay, well, you need a backup. And I was like, all right, I'll do a masters then. So I did a masters.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  And then was working at Costa the whole time. And then one day I was like, you know what? I can't film HelloFresh on my 12 hour shift. I'm gonna quit, even though I'm making no money. I'm gonna quit. Mum nearly dropped dead. She was like, I trust you, but

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  if this doesn't work out, you need to get another job straight away. And thank God it worked out.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  It sure did.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  It sure did. So let's unpack the career aspect.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Because I think this is where most people know you from. You know, I was talking to a friend of mine coming over here this morning.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  And I was like, you know, G K Barry? He's like, yeah, of course. I said, when did you first hear about her? When did you first know about her? He said, gosh, I don't know. You know, it was one of those where I feel like you have such a unique career because I believe if I were to do a study, because I love a good study. I think that your notoriety is significant.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  I've been a lot of firsts for things.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  You've been a lot of firsts. You have been a lot of firsts.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  But I think it was TikTok in particular.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  That took you to the top. So why? And when did you start TikTok?

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  So it was March, the lockdown, as soon as we went into lockdown.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  It was COVID.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I remember.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  That was yesterday.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  I know, you're telling me.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  This is when you started?

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  So it was literally March. As soon as we were like, stay at home, save lives, I was staying at home, saving lives. Yeah, I was like, you don't have to tell me twice. So I was at home and I it sounds funny, but it's not funny. I genuinely thought we were all going to die, right? I was so health anxiety. I was like, look, if I'm gonna die, I need to leave something for like the next. You know how dinosaurs have bones? I was like, I need to leave something, right?

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  For the next people.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Like Cleopatra in a tomb. I was like, I need something. So I was like, right, there's this new app called TikTok. I've just seen people dancing on it. I'm gonna download it. And do you know what? I'm just gonna say a really embarrassing story. Or my first video, actually, no, it was, it was a bloke running past my window. And I said, I didn't know there was a hunk in the neighborhood. I'm getting my gym gear on. I'm going on a fucking run, like that. Blew up. And I was like, okay, that's really cool. So then I thought, I'll try my luck. I'm gonna say a really embarrassing story of something that happened to me. Because one thing my mum has given me is the ability to tell a story.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  I did it, went viral again.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  And by August, I got a hundred K.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  Followers, just on TikTok?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Just on TikTok.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Instagram wasn't really a thing. It was just TikTok. And then I was like, okay, I'm just gonna keep going and see where this is. And at that point as well, TikTok wasn't a job. No one was making money from it. It was so new. And there was a handful of us creators that had just come up.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  And then we all became friends. And then, yeah, by I'd say a year, I'd hit a million. It was really, really quickly.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  In one year?

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And do you know what? A memory I really, that stands out. We came out of COVID, like we came out of the lockdown and I went to my local car to get prosecco, obviously. And the woman was like, oh, my God. And obviously, I've been inside. I've seen the number of people follow me, but it hadn't.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  You have not interacted.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  So I'm thinking someone's nicked something. She's going, you're G K Barry? And I was like, it felt like something out of a film. And then her other coworker came over and was like, oh, my God, I love your TikToks. And I was actually like, I don't know what's going on. I walked back to my car. Someone else has now said it. And then I've driven home and I'm like, what has just, what has just happened?

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  We have to go back to that moment. Because, see now, I've met Grace.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  And I know how tough school was for Grace. I know how hard she was working to get the laugh.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  I know how ostracized she was.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, it was pivotal.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  I know how unpopular Grace was.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  So now to come out of lockdown, to have three people immediately.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Immediately, yeah.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  What does that, or what did it feel like?

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  It was incredible because they were coming up to me and saying, I love your video. You are so funny. And it felt like I had been waiting. Obviously, my friends thought I was funny because they're only human. But like, to have a stranger, that to me was like, I've done it. That was genuine. I skipped back to my car. I was so happy.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  And that, I feel like I chased that feeling constantly since then.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  So that was a high?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And at that point too, you can't monetize.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  No, it just wasn't a thing.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  So you were doing it literally for

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  I don't want to belittle it, but like the attention of it.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  No, that absolutely is what it was. Yeah.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  How it made you feel.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  And also I then built a community at that time of people that were like me. So when I was posting, I was posting no makeup, really bad skin, hair in a bun. Because I knew that made a story funnier. If you look like shit and tell a story, it's funnier. I don't know what the science is, but it's there. So for me, everyone who was watching me was like, I had the same thing. I did the same thing. And it was like I just built a community of people that were like me. And I'd searched for that for a very long time.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  That's so interesting. And then, so now tell me about the G K Barry persona. Because I feel like you're talking about it here.

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Take off makeup, although that is you, but to intentionally say, I'm going to do it in a certain way.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  You're starting to build a persona.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  The more I look bad, like the more I feel like I look quite ugly, the more G K Barry's coming out to like overcompensate for that. So that's where it sort of came from.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Especially when I started, I knew stories are funny, if you look like shit, but also if you've got a bit of an accent that's strong. So like, I remember at the time, people found people on Only Way It's Essex really funny.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  So I was just forcing an Essex accent during my early, please don't find those videos, during those early times. And it worked.

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Video right here. There it is.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  But it worked. Everyone thought it was hilarious. And they were, I started my videos with guys like that, really over the top. And it became a thing. Everyone would be like, guys, like taking the piss out of the way I talk, but in a funny way. And I was like, this is how you do it. This is how you get views. And I just stuck with that. And then it got to a point where I was like, when do I speak normally? Do you know what I mean? Like, when do I come out of that?

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  Because everyone loves this persona.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  Right, that's created.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  And I have to put, whenever anyone comes up to me, I will absolutely put it on. Because also I don't want anyone to be disappointed. So I, once, it was my granddad's funeral, May rest. This guy was holding his coffin. He's gone, can I get a picture of you? I've gone, yeah. But I thought, that feels unprofessional.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Sorry, I had to get that out there. Sorry.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I can understand.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  That there's this, like this high interest in you. But I guess what I want to understand though is, how do you feel knowing that the interest is of you, but not of you? You know what I mean? It's of, because it's not like, I think G K Barry is not this far reach from who you are. It feels like it's characteristics that you have that are just exaggerated.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  But it's not you day to day.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  There's two, I quite like it in the fact that it feels like I have a bit of me when I'm at home. And I'm, I've got an independence that no one really knows about. And I can separate then work and not work. Do you know what I mean? That that gives me a bit away. But when things go wrong or people have a negative opinion on me based on G K Barry.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  I get really pissed off because I'm like, if you knew like, a lot of people think that I'd be the first one in an argument to absolutely give it somewhere. I'd start an argument or anything. The idea of an argument is my worst, I can't, I can't do confrontation. It makes me literally want to be sick. Like, I literally, I'm the least from that. But if you looked at G K Barry, you'd think you could go up to her and give it to her because she'd give it back.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Which is not the case. So that sometimes gets annoying for me.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So then with TikTok, at what point did you monetize it? Because I would imagine that's when the career really took off.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  I.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  So my manager, who's now my manager, but she's crazy ginger woman, sends me a message and she goes, look, I either wanna be your mate or your manager. I've never managed anyone, I don't even know what's it's a grit, but I want you to be the first.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  So I thought, well, I'm working at Costa and this is, so August I reached a hundred K. So like a year and a bit now, we're in like November.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Um, she's messaged me that and I've gone, right, okay. Had a meet, my first meeting with her, she was getting a bouncy blow dryer for FaceTime. And I thought, this is, this is my kind of woman.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  Exactly, this is, yeah.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  She gets it. So unprofessional, but we both didn't know what we were doing at the time. She had like three clients at H L D at the time.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Okay. Can I even ask too, is why did she message you? What was it about you that she?

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  She saw one of my TikToks and it was a really, really crude one. It was me in the mirror pretending to give it someone going, your breath stinks and so does your pussy. And then they walk in and I'm like, hi, how are you? Like pretending, you know, that I wasn't gonna say all that.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  And she said, that's you are me in a younger form and I, I think you're hilarious. So, and when I met her, we got on like a house on fire and she was very on it. One thing about Hannah, she's always been very honest. She's like, I don't know if I can make you any money. Cause I've never done this before, but I'm gonna give it a go. So I was like, okay. I then quit Costa, I'd say in December, so November, December.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  Without having made anything?

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  I'd say I made about

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  fifty quid.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  Okay, so all right. So you're already.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  I've done like one ad, which was, wasn't really an ad. It was, I think it was like a legging. So they were like, can you just promote a legging? And I was like, okay, I'll provide some leggings.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  And you pay for, oh my, you know what, why didn't I think, you're saying literally fifty?

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Fifty pounds, fifty great British pounds, not fifty grands. Yes. That was the case, I'd have left Costa straight away.

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  Okay, you made fifty pounds?

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Fifty pounds.

• 1:12:57Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. But, but you were willing to, at that point, still quit?

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  I was just like, do you know what? Love Costa, love a cappuccino, but I just really wanna commit to this. This is fun.

• 1:13:10Speaker 02

  Okay. Oh, and also you're living at home.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  I'm living at home.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  So you have this support.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  There's no like stress of, oh, I'm gonna pay my rent.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  My mum and dad are. So I had that ability to be like, you know what? I'm just gonna go hell for leather and post loads and loads. Um, and I'd say it took about nine months for me to then have made a bit of money where I'm like, this is paying off.

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  And then it went from there.

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. So, so what was the first project outside of a TikTok sponsored thing?

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  As in like, like my podcast?

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Right, or like podcast or event that happened outside of TikTok where you were paid? Where, where you, where you saw the promise of a career outside of TikTok?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  I would say it was, it was more when brands were reaching out and going, we'll pay you this to do a thirty second TikTok. And I was like,

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  right.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  And you don't want me to do anything else? And I, I said, okay. So now I'm getting, and I'm doing everything at this point because I've seen money and I'm like, I'm taking everything. So I'm doing every ad under the sun and I'm making money and it feels incredible.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  But I'm also at uni. So like, I'm trying to, trying to balance that. But now I'm getting invited to events with like Molly May.

• 1:14:37Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  And I'm seeing how Molly May lives and I'm like, I have to live like that. Um, and then I got offered my podcast.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  And from that, after the first week it came out, I was like, okay. This is, this is it. This is the career.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  This is it.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  The start anyway.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  Interesting. And did your parents believe that there was a career there?

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  No. They were like, and what are you gonna do just quickly when this doesn't work? They were like, what are you doing? What? You're talking on the internet. And also I'd ban them from watching my stuff.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  I said, look, if, if you love me, just don't watch what I post, just take the, the benefits of it. Because I'm talking about some dreadful stuff on there that you will not want to know about.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  Wow, okay.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  So, and they were like, all right, whatever. And they just left me to it.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  And they, and, and you did it. So then from the podcast, which has been incredibly popular and successful.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  What was the next move? Or really, I guess, what was the first television project? Cause I think with TV, what's so interesting is that I always say that, at the end of the day, ten years ago plus, everyone wanted to get onto TV.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  It was like, let me be online to get onto TV. Now it's, let me get onto TV so I could.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  Online.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Online.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  So you were online.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  But then TV, I think, becomes a credibility play.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Right. It's not about the money because there's no money in TV.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  There's none. But there is something about being on TV that is, that's like my dream. So Hannah had said to me, look,

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  I think we should just try for any bit of telly. Like I think you are perfect for it and we can help you. And I can't tell you how many meetings we had with commissioners or like just anyone, Channel Four, I see anyone that would just, put me on anything, please. Like this is what I wanna do. Everyone, absolutely not, no chance.

• 1:16:36Speaker 02

  Why, why do you think they said no?

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Cause I was a TikToker. And they said to me, they said, we don't, we don't have TikTokers on TV. That's not a thing. Then I started my podcast. All of a sudden I'm a podcast host. The doors opened a bit.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Different, yeah.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Right? So now they're like, okay, we'll pitch you as a podcast host. And the first show I ever did was, um, Stand Up To Cancer and it was Don't Look Down.

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Where we went and lived in Austria to learn how to high wire walk, two high wire walk across West Ham. And that then was, I would say like the beginning of people from telly being like, oh, she's actually all right on telly. And then obviously I did a bit of Loose Women, but I wasn't a, a panelist like I am now. I just, as a guest, cause I was rumored for Strictly.

• 1:17:27Speaker 02

  Ah, okay.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  They said, come on, so we can talk about Strictly. I'm like, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  And then they invite me back and then I get I'm a celeb. And then from there, I think it's just sort of.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  And then, yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So then with I'm a celeb, I think that is, I didn't realize until living here for a while.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Speaker 02

  That that is, I think, that's like the crowning show.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  I believe.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  It's like you get onto I'm a celeb, you are considered it. And then from there, you could kind of command whatever you, you, you want. So, once you got on, what are not only you feeling and thinking about your, like who you are in terms of your career? But also what are your parents thinking?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  I thought I was a charity hire. Because to be honest, I was, like, when I got a story, well, first of all, I was like, shit, I've got to do the plane ride. But then when I got over that, I remember I was out there and I was in holding. And my parents, by the way, were ecstatic. They knew this was mega.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  They got it.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  They were like, if anything, they, they overdid it. They were like, you're gonna get paps at your door, Grace. I was like, let's all calm down. Okay, not laughing. Um, so I remember everyone's so excited for me. I'm sort of still in denial about it because I'm very stressed about what this show is and what I'm gonna have to do. So I'm in fight or flight and I'm currently in flight, right? So I'm in holding and my hair, I just needed a bouncy blow. So I was like, listen, I need you to take me to the hairdressers. I've got no phone or anything, right? Takes me to the hairdressers and he's like, one minute, I'm literally just gonna go take a call. I'm like, no problem.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  I pulled this hairdresser and I say, you need to give me your phone because I'm going on I'm a celebrity. And I just need to see my announcement post because I need to see if people like or hate me. She's like, no way, babe. Of course she can. Fuck it, amazing. So she's doing my hair. I'm scrolling now through my post. Every single comment, who? Who is this? Who? You know, like the usual, cause I'm a social media person. And if you don't follow me, you won't know.

• 1:19:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  So it was very negative. Apart from people who knew me, it was very, very negative. So I went in, like I have absolutely nothing to lose. No one likes me already. No one knows who I am. So what will be, will be. And I think that actually helped seeing that.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  When you, when you saw that, do you get like the same feeling that you had back at school again? Like it's me against everyone?

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was just like, oh, I have to prove myself again. And also I'm very aware that this is a very different audience that aren't, they're not my age. I'm very crude.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  A little bit.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Thank you. But you know, I'm, I'm very, my mouth will get me in trouble a lot because I can never read the line between speaking to someone who's a bit older than me and not. So I was quite worried about that. And yeah, I just went in and was like, I'm terrified. I was so, so, I've never been that scared in my life, even to this day.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  And I, and then I just did it. And then when the rev came in, I could relax a bit. But that was, yeah, one of the most terrifying. And also I didn't know what people were thinking about me on the app. And I was starting to get voted for trials and I thought, this is either great or awful.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  So then when you come off of I'm a celeb and you start to see what the news was, what's your impression of what you saw?

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Gobsmacked. Because it was like, I turned on my phone and everyone liked me. And it, I wasn't even putting on G K Barry.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Like everyone was like, you did amazing. Or like even stuff I didn't know was in there, like talking about coming out or talking about how awful my skin was in there and I didn't really care. It was somehow managed to impact people and I didn't realize. That for me was like, wow, like the power of this show is insane.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Do, do you, did you ever think like, I wonder if all of these people at school

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  watch this?

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I knew.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  Oh, you knew?

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Because I would. If someone from my school went on I'm a celebrity, I'd be sat every night like, let's go. Like I need to watch this. Um, so yeah, I would, I would assume that they did. And they probably got the shock of their lives with the state of me in there, yellow hair, acne. But yeah, I'm hoping that maybe when they saw that as well.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  I don't know, like I'm hoping maybe they were like, oh, she's actually all right. Not me still wanting their approval, but I was, yeah.

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, but, but you do, it sounds like you, you would have hoped that they, that they were, yeah.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think that was the, the best thing that could have happened to me.

• 1:22:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Was that whole show.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

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• 1:23:19Speaker 02

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• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  From a career standpoint, where do you go from now? I mean, obviously I know that you have a book coming out, right? And I think this is great because it unpacks your life, but how, how would you characterize the book?

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  What does that mean?

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Or, or how would you describe the book?

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  The book is, because I need to, I've been offered to do books before and I was always like, no. I've got nothing to say. So when they finally came to me, I was like, right, if I'm going to do a book, I need to make it so open and honest, things that I haven't said before, but I need to make sure the book. My, I've got a very young audience and I want to make sure if they read it, they take something from it. I want to make sure people take something from it. I didn't want it to be like a stupid, I mean, it was a bit stupid in some of the chapters, but you know, just a stupid book that you read and that's it.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  I wanted to make sure there is stuff in there that I could really give to others, if that makes sense.

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  Yes, it does. So now is, is the time, you think, to be able to?

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, because I'm, I don't feel like I've fully always said everything because I've been very scared of what people are gonna, the common theme, what people are gonna think. But now I feel like I'm sort of, I'm just past that and I feel like I've seen other people and that they literally put all of their shit on the table and it will help at least one person. And it's like, that is incredible that you can do that.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  And I would like to be able, because unfortunately people do look up to me, some people do, and I do feel that pressure a little bit. So I'd like to be able to give something to those people.

• 1:25:32Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. So now, I know there's a story.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  There is a story.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  And I was, you know, and this is, this is, this is probably the worst way to segue into the story, but.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  It's not a good way, so.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I, I, I can't believe that I'm no longer shocked about these stories.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  I was originally, but now that I've educated myself and, and I've removed myself from ignorance, I'm no longer.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  You know, and it, but it, but it, it doesn't take away the, the, the pain, you know,

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  of, of being aware of it. But as much of the story that you'd like to tell, I think it's a very important one.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:21Speaker 02

  And I think it will, it'll truly not only help, but it could save lives.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, this is the only podcast that I will talk about it on because I'm happy to go into it with you. All the rest of them, I can just read the book. But, so when I was at college, so after school, college, you had to do work experience to pass that specific course, right?

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, I don't really, I'm doing media, so I'm just, I'm just gonna do something sort of related to that. Anyway, I found one and put in my CV and the guy there, he was about 27, he was quite attractive, really friendly. And he was like, okay, give me your number, blah, blah. And now I've got work experience with him. I'm 17 at the time, so I, I've got a car, but I can't drive it. So my parents are both working and he says, I tell you what, why don't I just pick you up? I'm like, yeah, that's fine, whatever. So he picks me up and we've also been texting a little bit

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  since prior to this. He's being a little bit flirty, but it's, he's an older guy. So for me, I was like, okay, but this is probably normal. It's quite cool that, you know, like an older guy is taking interest in me. And I can't remember if it was on the way to work experience or the way, but I want to say it was the way back from my first day. He was like, yeah, we're, we're gonna go to the park. Sorry.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  I can wait, that's there, okay.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  Take, take your time with it.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Right. He was like, we're gonna go to the park. And I immediately knew what that meant. Even though he didn't have to say it, I was like, oh, okay. And I was like trying to make

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  sort of excuses to be like, oh, like, you know, you can just drop me home, it's fine. He was like, no, no, we're gonna go to the park. I was like, all right. And I remember on the journey, I was like, please let there be someone in the park. Because if there's someone in there, he'll probably just give up and be like, let's go home. But there was no one in the park. So anyway, I ended up having to do stuff to him in the park. And then he dropped me home. And then I was like, right, well, I've still got a week left.

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  And if I don't go back, I'm not gonna pass my course, I'm not gonna get to uni. All these things going on in my head. So I was like, right, just get your shit together and go. And that was the only thing that happened for the start of that week. And then it got to the last day. And he didn't, on that day, he didn't pick me up or drop me off. My mum did. And went to the station, it was all fine. And then it got to a point where all, and it was only men that worked there.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  He went, you guys can go to the other people. And I was like, oh God. Because at the place where I did it, you lock the door when you leave.

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  It's never open. So I knew when they left, the door was locked, right? And I was like, okay, maybe this will be fine. And then he says, this room's got no cameras. I was like, okay. He was like, yeah, come in the room. So I was like, right, okay.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  And then basically, he raped me in there. And then afterwards, I remember there was a toilet right next door.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  And I was, I'm just gonna quickly go to the toilet. And I was wearing white jeans and a long, like grey coat, sorry.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  And I put on my coat, which was long, and I just wrapped it round me.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  And then my mum came and picked me up. So I was like, right, I'm just not gonna say anything. I said, thank you for the work experience. Anyway, I said, thank you. And then I left. And then I put my trousers in the washing bin and my mum was like, what has happened to your trousers? I was like, oh, I've just started my period. Then I didn't say anything for however long. Now I'm back at college and my tutor's come over to me and gone, oh, so and so's gonna do work experience at that place.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  And I'm in like a catch 22 of, I haven't told anyone and I was very happy to not tell anyone. But now I feel like I need to. So I said to her, look, without going into detail, something inappropriate happened to me there. She got the gist of it. Anyway, she said, right, well, because you're under 18, we need to call the police and you need to tell your mum.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  The mum part was, I was like, no, there's, there's absolutely no way. That you cannot, we don't talk about sex, we don't talk about anything, we're very cer-, like, we don't do that.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Well, I had to do it. And I remember they called her in and we're sat in the, just me and my mum sat in the canteen. There's still people sat around, they were doing after school things. And I've had to tell her. And she's just been like, what? I don't underst-, like, I've taken you there. And you, you know, why haven't you told me? I'm like, more in shock, I think. Anyway, then we go in, speak to the college about it, the police say they'll get back, whatever. Um, and then, I think about a week after, this woman came in from the police and said, you wanna sit in my unmarked car so we can just have a conversation?

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  I was like, yep, cool. Um, and she just says, look, because it was so long ago, you didn't report it.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  And you were honest and said you flirted with them at the start, there's just no point reporting it. Um, I think you'd just be best to leave it. Yeah, it's your choice, but I just, if I was you, I wouldn't.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  And I was like, all right, that's fair, um, fair enough, I won't then. And I got out of the car. And then I just didn't speak to anyone about it for about five or six years. And I've never spoken to my mum about it again. I don't know if my dad really knows. The only time is when I was writing this book and I called her to say, I feel like it's important to add this in. Can I? And she was like, yeah, you can, you can do what you want, I think it's important to, but we've, we haven't, yeah, spoken about it.

• 1:33:30Speaker 02

  Haven't talked about it, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  First thing is, thank you for sharing that.

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  Uh, and I, uh, I have so many thoughts. I have so many thoughts. And we can stay on the topic as long or as short as you want.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  I think the most important thing to underscore, because I heard you mention what that police officer said. Why you shouldn't report it because you were flirting. I think it's very important to underscore flirting is not consent.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:07Speaker 02

  Silence is not consent.

• 1:34:12Speaker 02

  Complying to something because they have removed your options.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:20Speaker 02

  The perpetrator has not given you any options and you have to comply?

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  That's not consent.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think that's why I didn't for so long, because I, I went years being like, that was, that was just my fault. The best thing I did was actually tell someone. It was like my best friend at the time. I just said it. And as soon as I said it, I was like, oh, I feel so good that I've just shared that with someone. And I was so scared about her reaction because I thought she'd be like, yeah, why did you, why did you do that? But straight away, she was like, he was your boss and knew you couldn't say no.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  And also twenty seven and seventeen is a very weird age dynamic. And sort of confirmed to me like, no, that wasn't your fault.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  And then it took me, it's been, what, it's been like ten years now? But it's taken me this long to fully be like, no, that was actually really wrong.

• 1:35:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  But it took me a very long time.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Do you, and, and do you understand, none of that was your fault? Do you?

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  You do? Okay.

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  I don't know, I get a bit nervous sometimes.

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  No, I think, I think that's incredibly important because none of it was.

• 1:35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:40Speaker 02

  None of it was, and, and, and I just want you to know that, none of it was.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  Uh, and you're incredibly brave to share the story. And there are going to be

• 1:35:54Speaker 02

  many people who hear it.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm scared of.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  And, and, well, no, you know what? And they are going to feel seen.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:04Speaker 02

  They're going to feel heard.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  Right? I, I, you know,

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  the, these, these are statistics that are horrible to have to say, but one in four women have been raped or sexually assaulted. Six in, this is what blows me away, six in seven of these cases are women who have been assaulted by men they know.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  It's, and, but that's the thing, right?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Is when I, the, the reason I wanted to write this is because when I thought of rape, I thought it was a man jumping out at you in a dark alley. And like aggressively tackling you to the floor and raping you, that's what I thought was rape. And when it came to someone that I had, I had known and was, has started off nice to me. That's when I was like, I don't, is it, I just got confused by that because I'd never also been taught that. You don't, you don't get taught that, especially when I was at school. So that's sort of why I wanted to put it in there because rape can come in so many forms. It can come from one of your best friends.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  Because if last minute you don't wanna do something,

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  you shouldn't have to do it. And even though at my time I was very scared to say no, there was such a big power, um, imbalance.

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  Um, that at his age, he should have known that was really wrong. And now I'm his age now. The thought of doing that to someone, let, let alone the fact they're seventeen,

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  is, is, yeah, horrific. So that's why I'm now like, no, this was, this was wrong and I need to speak about it.

• 1:37:57Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yeah. And incredibly brave to do so, incredibly brave to do so.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. This is all Grace today.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jesus.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  It's all Grace today.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm loving and, um, and feel honoured to get to know Grace, truly.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  Well, you're the only one I do it for.

• 1:38:22Speaker 02

  Can we talk about Ella?

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:38:25Speaker 02

  Ella's with you?

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  Can, can I say this? And this is, this is not me trying to gas you and Ella up. But I can see how much in love you and Ella are.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's sickening, isn't it?

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  No, you know what? It is, it is, it is beautiful to see. I wanna go back to understanding how you two met. But I think the piece in the middle is us talking about sexuality.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  Because throughout our conversation, you've been talking about you and boys.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:55Speaker 02

  All right. So tell me about how you, your, how did you identify in college? And when did you begin to fully explore your sexuality?

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  Do you know what it is? Because I've always grown up in quite small towns. It was always, you get with a man.

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  And in relation, I have, I have been attracted to the men I've been with, right? That, that wasn't a lie, those relationships weren't a lie. But I just didn't realise or even think that that was a possibility. And we had like two lesbians at my school, they'd always snog at break time. Um, and I was like, I was very, didn't know, didn't know much about lesbians. I didn't get it. I thought a, a lesbian, it was an undercut birch. I thought that was what a lesbian was. And I was like, well, that's not me. So I'm not a lesbian. And I'd never even looked at a woman and thought,

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  yeah, this is a bit, because I'd never allowed myself to because I didn't think that was, wasn't me. Um, and then I went to uni and I was, obviously I was just free at uni, I could do whatever I wanted. And I was like, oh, that's when I started thinking, girls are quite nice. Like, they're, they're quite attractive, they're, I, I get on with girls and the emotional connection. I've, I've been friends with a lot of boys and that, uh, connection is never there. So I started experimenting at uni with girls, sorry Ella. Um, and it was always just sort of like a one night stand thing.

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  Because I'd get the fear the next day, I'd really overthink it, I'd be like, oh, I can't believe I did that.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  And the fear was what?

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Just like, oh, like, I can't believe I did that, I'm really embarrassed.

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  Ah, shame.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was shame. I felt shame because I was like, that's not what I have grown up knowing. Like, I'd never really known a lesbian. I didn't, when I watched films when I'm younger, it's always Prince Charming or You Fall For That Guy. I'd never watched a film where two girls had fallen in love. It just wasn't, that just wasn't a thing for me to see. Um, then I was with someone and one thing about when I'm with men is they've never made it past a year, or it'll be on a year and I'm like, I'm done. I've never had, I can easily dispose, you're gone, I don't care and I'm not upset about it.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Um, so then after my last breakup, I got rid and I was like, do you know what? I really feel like I want to date women. I wanna see if, like, what that's all about.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  And I said on my podcast, I had Ella Toon on my podcast.

• 1:41:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  And she's a footballer and I was like, right, this is a call out.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  I want a female footballer. I've never watched football.

• 1:42:01Speaker 02

  But okay, but at this point, though.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:03Speaker 02

  So are you saying that, you're saying this as G K Barry?

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Also.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:09Speaker 02

  Right. And are you saying it like facetiously, like jokingly, or?

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  I'm saying it semi as a, as a, I didn't actually want a footballer. That was like, it's just because I had a football on the pod. I was like,

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm gonna say I want a female footballer. You've got any mates? Um, but I knew I wanted, I just had a feeling. I was like, I just really want to date a woman. I really, I want to see if,

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  if I'm, because I know I'm attracted to them.

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  But what allowed you to be able to say it publicly and therefore not carry the shame that you had previously?

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Do you know what it is? Since being in this industry, my friends are gay men. I love gay men. I connect with them like I have never connected with anyone before. Most of my team is gay, apart from my makeup artist, but she's got the pass. And also, this isn't any, I've nev-, like, my uncle, a drag queen, like, I've been, my parents have always said to me from literally like three, we don't care if you're with a man or a woman, if you're happy, that's fine.

• 1:43:13Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  So I'd never had any of that. Oh, I can't. It was just mentally for me. So I did that call out on the pod. Um, and one of my friend's partners was like, so weird you've said that. And it was that night after the pod. I went over to theirs. He said, I met this girl on a cruise. Her name's Ella Rutherford and she plays for Charlton. Just look at her Instagram, see if you're into it. I looked at her Instagram and I was like, fuck my life.

• 1:43:47Speaker 01

  The arse on it, her ponytail, like everything about her. I was like, she is beautiful. And she's clearly driven. I'd never dated anyone driven before, but I could see she was driven in her career. I was like, I really like that. So she, I followed her. She then messages me. She has no idea who I am, by the way, at this point.

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  I find out later on, she's had to ask her sister, who's been like, that's G K Barry, like, what are you talking about? Um, she messages me and she's recovering from a knee injury. She did her ACL. Something went wrong with that. She's had another surgery. And what I didn't know at this point was she was in the depths of, she was in a really awful, awful place. She was about to give up football.

• 1:44:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  She was in a really awful place. And then I've come in and I've been like, look, I, why don't we just meet up? But for me, we can't go on a normal date because one, she's injured, she's hobbling about the place. But two, I, I don't want someone to film me. On a date, like, I want to know this for myself and be certain because my last relationship was very public. So I was like, right. So she came to my house. And I remember I was.

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  First date at the house.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  I was, I can't even explain to you the anxiety. I was near, I was gagging.

• 1:45:16Speaker 02

  You were a beginner lesbian.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  I was like, baby gay. Like, I was like, it was, I was terrified. I opened the door and she's there, stunning. And she comes in and straight away, we're laughing. I, I got a date where I got canvases and paint and we had to paint each other. Because I thought it was a very good icebreaker.

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  She stayed that night and we have lived together ever since. I promise you, the only time we've had is the jungle.

• 1:45:48Speaker 02

  This, this is the longest first date I've ever heard in my life.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  You're so gay. You're so gay.

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  First day.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:45:55Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  She stays over.

• 1:45:57Speaker 02

  And that's it.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  She goes home to get some more clothes. She comes back.

• 1:46:01Speaker 02

  And that's it?

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  And that's it. And we've just lived on and off at hers and mine.

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  Look at that.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:06Speaker 02

  And that's, that's for how long?

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  Two and a bit years now.

• 1:46:09Speaker 02

  Look at that.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  She made it past the year mark.

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's big. That is big.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  That was big.

• 1:46:14Speaker 02

  That's big. So when did you introduce Ella to your parents?

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  So we've got an app called Life360, right? So you can always see where I am.

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Um, and I was always at her house. And I was saying to my parents, oh, I'm just at my friend Ella's. Just at my friend Ella's. Because at this point, I was like, I don't introduce people to my parents until I've been with them for a little bit anyway. Because, you know, I just think that's respectful. Um, and they're like, Grace does, I don't sleep around people's houses. I like to be in my own bed. Friends, best friend, whatever. I like to be in my own bed. So they're seeing me consecutively stay at this other house.

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  This friend?

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  This friend called Ella, who bearing in mind, I've moved to this random place at this point, who I don't know anyone. And all of a sudden, I've got this best friend who I'm staying at. And they've come around one day just to see me and Ella's there. They're getting on really well. And I have to drop them back to the train station. And my dad or my mom just goes, who is Ella? What is Ella to you? And I just went, she's my girlfriend. And they went, all right, okay. I mean, that was it. And then from then on, it's just been my girlfriend Ella. It was never.

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  To, to, to know that they fully accepted it, because you thought they would.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  Well, I was very scared because I thought, I know you've always told me that.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  But when it comes down to it, are you gonna feel a type of way? But they completely just accepted it.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  They accepted. How did it feel to know they fully accepted?

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  That was then a, when I sighed relief. Because I didn't care about the internet. I didn't care about anyone else's opinions. It was just like my parents.

• 1:48:06Speaker 02

  Yes. All right. So this could be a tough question.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  But I'm curious.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  What do you believe it is that Ella loves most about you?

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  God. I think, and I could be wrong, but we're polar opposite. She is someone who is, she's outspoken. She will say, if she's got a problem with someone, she's gonna tell them. She'll stand on business. She's, she's very outgoing. She's sporty. She, when, when she's angry, she's, she's, like, she's, she feels her emotions and she will show her emotions.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  And sometimes, especially during the start, she, because she's got ADHD, I feel like she struggles to regulate her emotions. And then there's me. I'm very laid back. I would not say boo to a goose. I, I am someone that hides my emotions. And it will only until I have to say it, will I say it. And both of us being together, it's like yin and yang. Like, we will bring out the good qualities in each other.

• 1:49:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Which I think, I, I would say I've helped her regulate and taught, regulate her feelings and how she says it. Whereas she has then said to, she's brought on to me that I can say how I feel. And if I, if someone has upset me, I can tell them that they've upset me. So it's very much like that. There's like a balance.

• 1:49:46Speaker 02

  See, once again, proof that there's real love there.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:49Speaker 02

  You know, because the, um, uh, you know, have you ever heard or read any of these studies around how, what people say is that if you're in a loving relationship, you live longer, you're healthier, all these things.

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:01Speaker 02

  Right? But you know where all of that comes from? It comes from the fact that a loved one helps you to regulate.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 02

  The co-regulation, it helps you to reduce stress.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:12Speaker 02

  Right? And so ultimately, that's what's allowing you to be healthier, live longer, make more money, that kind of thing. Uh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  It took us a while as well. At the start, it was very rocky because we didn't, because we were so different. I didn't know how to handle her. And she didn't know how to handle me because we both dealt with things very differently.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  So she has to sit on her feelings and then just go for it. Whereas I have to, if we're in an argument, I have to be like, are you mad at me? Like, what are you mad at? Can you just tell me quickly? Because I've got anxiety. Whereas she needs to stew on it to then be able to articulate it. And that was a big thing at the start.

• 1:50:49Speaker 02

  And I would imagine lifestyle too, you know, so, uh, from me being involved with football.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:54Speaker 02

  I understand how disciplined an athlete's schedule needs to be.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  Mm.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  Whereas I also understand being in a creative space, how like all over the place we are.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  So all over the place. Yeah. Honestly.

• 1:51:06Speaker 02

  So it's like, how do you, you know, how do you manage those two things?

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  Must be challenging.

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  So it was, it was difficult. And also, we have different lives in the fact that Ella is known in the football world. She's very known in the football world.

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  And I'm known by the girls and the gays. So like, having to then merge those two.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  Was also quite weird. Because it was like, we'd, I said, I'm not, I'm not showing Ella. This relationship's private. No one's gonna know about her. I'm gonna call her eyelashes because she gets eyelash extensions. And I'll talk about her, but you're not gonna know who she is. Two weeks later, people have found out who she was. And I said, you know what? Yeah, you're right. It is Ella. And then everyone knew. And that again was quite anxiety provoking for me because I was like, oh, now everyone's gonna have opinions.

• 1:51:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  And I, I don't like opinions because I feel like they can get in the way sometimes or make you, you think

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  the way you're not meant to be thinking.

• 1:52:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  And I, I didn't really like that.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  How, how do you deal with the negative opinion and negative commentary?

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  Luckily, when I said that I was with a woman, every, because I've got the girls and the gays, everyone was like, yes, amazing, we're so supportive. And I had never obviously dealt with any homophobia. Ella unfortunately has. She's had a very different

• 1:52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  journey with it. So I remember we were in Benidorm, my favorite place, and, um, we walked past a bar, holding hands. All the men in the bar stood up and started clapping, saying, oh, that was, that's wa-, they're wasted, that's wasted. They're go- And I was like, I've never, I don't know what to do. But Ella is very good at being like, fuck off and leave us alone. And that has really helped. Because now I'm like, okay, that, that's, that's how you navigate it.

• 1:53:06Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  Because otherwise I would not have a clue.

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  Wow. Love it. I love it.

• 1:53:11Speaker 02

  I think it's time for another surprise. I think you deserve a surprise.

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  Oh, God. Okay.

• 1:53:15Speaker 02

  You ready for it?

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:16Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  Well, close my eyes.

• 1:53:17Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  Don't put me hand out.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  Put your hand out and bam.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Not another one?

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  Another one. Another one.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Another one.

• 1:53:27Speaker 02

  Another one.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Right, who's this from? I'm terrified who you've contacted her.

• 1:53:31Speaker 02

  This, this, this, this was a hard one to get.

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  Right, you ready?

• 1:53:36Speaker 02

  Ready.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  It's now a good time to tell you how beautiful you are. That was her first message to me. I know this is Ella. Hee hee, I'll stop flirting immediately or you'll probably cringe. Correct. I can't deal with when she flirts with me. I just want you to know how proud I am of you. I see firsthand how hard you work and how much of yourself you give to everything and everyone in your life. You have the purest and most beautiful soul, the funniest person in every room, and bring so much light to our lives. You're strong, smart, kind, gorgeous, and have the biggest heart that I'm so lucky to be loved by. Oh. Please never forget that I believe in you on the day. Why am I crying?

• 1:54:22Speaker 02

  Because it's lovely.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  Can you edit in the crying to my parents' one as well?

• 1:54:27Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  Please never forget that I believe in you on the days when you feel like you're not enough. I'll be there to remind you that you are. On the days. Oh, my God, Paul, I don't know what is in this room. I feel like you're drugging me to cry. Allegedly. Wherever life, wait, on the days when you're proud of yourself, I'll be right there celebrating with you wherever life takes you, whatever challenges come your way. I hope you always remember that you'll never have to face them alone. I love you more than you ever know. P.S. I cannot wait to marry you and grow it old and wrinkly together. That was really cute.

• 1:55:05Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 1:55:06Speaker 01

  Bitch. Can't believe she did that. That was really cute.

• 1:55:13Speaker 02

  It was incredible.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  Oh, she is very articulate when she wants to be.

• 1:55:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. What stands out to you most from that letter?

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  That was just cute about going through it together.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  Because also I have been struggling with trying to give my time to everyone. So I feel like just knowing that she is just there regardless is very nice.

• 1:55:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, now that I've fully, I feel like I've fully known, you know, you. I could see that.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:55:43Speaker 02

  No problem. Ella.

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  Oh. I'm sorry.

• 1:55:48Speaker 02

  Ella's the person that you've always been searching for.

• 1:55:53Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know what was going on before her. Jesus wept.

• 1:55:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was, it was, you could see how your life has, I would say like a great partner.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:04Speaker 02

  Level up with a great partner.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:06Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:56:06Speaker 01

  But it does make a difference. I was very happy when I was single. I was like, I can do this alone. Now, I'm a strong, independent woman, but having Ella has really, yeah, changed everything.

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  It was having that person to have support you, like vice versa.

• 1:56:23Speaker 02

  So, marriage.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Oh, God. Yeah.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  Marriage is in the future.

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  It is, and I'm not completely off marriage.

• 1:56:35Speaker 02

  Okay. We're back, so we're, we're, we're on the marriage train now.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  We're on the marriage train.

• 1:56:39Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  And it will happen.

• 1:56:43Speaker 02

  And it will happen.

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  I know I'm the one doing it as well because I, everything has to be my way or the highway. So just to know everything's good, I'm gonna, I'm the one that's doing it.

• 1:56:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:54Speaker 02

  Look, look at that, like, evolution of life.

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  From your earlier thoughts around marriage to now.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:03Speaker 02

  It's incredible.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  It is, it's, it's funny when you, when you meet someone that it will just flip.

• 1:57:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  The script.

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Where does the prosecco come from?

• 1:57:16Speaker 02

  I mean, for you.

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  My, my, the fridge. My mom loves prosecco.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  She always has, and it's become our thing. If I see my mom, we'll have a little prosecco. We're very, we're quite a drink-heavy family.

• 1:57:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:57:31Speaker 01

  Which is funny because when I met Ella, they, they don't drink, really.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, she's an athlete, so she's like, I'm not such a.

• 1:57:37Speaker 01

  But even she grew up, it wasn't really a drinking household, where for me, Friday, Saturday, in the house, let's go. Like, we're having, we're having a drink, we're having a great time, especially during lockdown.

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  But yeah, I've just always sort of grown up with it, and I know it's quite a bad thing to lean on, but it makes you feel so relaxed, like I could do anything after a prosecco.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  I know how that sounds.

• 1:58:10Speaker 02

  You thought about that, you're like.

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, that sounds like I've got a problem. I do not have a problem. I can go without it, but I just like it.

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  I, I once did a pilot for a TV show and we had to make a coffin for ourselves. Arguably a bad manifestation. And I made mine in the shape of a prosecco.

• 1:58:28Speaker 02

  Of course you did.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  And that was, I thought that felt right.

• 1:58:31Speaker 02

  Of course you did. You need, I'm sure you've been pitched a prosecco brand.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:58:35Speaker 02

  Never?

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:58:36Speaker 02

  Someone needs to get on that.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:58:38Speaker 02

  That's so you.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  But imagine I go sober in a couple of years and I'm still having to like peg it out, like.

• 1:58:43Speaker 02

  You do a non-alcoholic prosecco then?

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  Was no point, really.

• 1:58:49Speaker 02

  Can I ask you the final question? Everybody gets it.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:58:52Speaker 02

  The question is, you've had some incredible conversations in your life. Which one stands out to you as the most memorable? Who was it with and what did you learn?

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  It's really random, but I was filming Celebrity Sabotage with, Joel Dommett was one of the people on it.

• 1:59:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  And I remember him and Sam Thompson were like the highest energy ever. As soon as that camera came on, they were just incredible.

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  And I remember going to Joel and saying, I just feel like I'm not sure why I'm here. I don't bring what you bring. And I just, I don't think I have that for telly. I, I just don't think I fit in with that. And he, I remember he said to me, he was like, you have been hired for a reason. And whatever, like basically whatever room you're in, you deserve to be in, whether you're the smallest one in there or the biggest. I think everyone deserves a right to be in there and that you should believe in your source. And I am a believer in believing in your source.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  Because even if, when I'm on sets and stuff and I know I'm not the funniest or I'm, I'm the smallest, I know what I can bring to a table, and I think that's really important.

• 2:00:17Speaker 02

  Yes, that's powerful. That's powerful for everyone.

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and shout out to Joel.

• 2:00:23Speaker 01

  Shout out to Joel.

• 2:00:24Speaker 02

  Joel's, Joel's one of the good ones. I love Joel.

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  He's lovely.

• 2:00:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  He really is.

• 2:00:28Speaker 02

  He's a great husband and father.

• 2:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's like a saint. He has to have some sort of flaw, but I haven't found it yet.

• 2:00:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's not good-looking.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  He runs marathons, that's his flaw.

• 2:00:40Speaker 02

  He's like incredibly good-looking, yeah.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Thank you.

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:00:46Speaker 02

  You are, you're super, beyond super.

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks, Paul. I've thoroughly enjoyed either the crying bits.

• 2:00:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could see it. I could see it. I could see, you know, it's interesting is that you even joke through the crying.

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  I know, I can't stop. I'll joke when I'm dying as well. They won't take me seriously.

• 2:01:03Speaker 02

  They won't.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll, I'll flatline their, but oh shit, she was right.

• 2:01:06Speaker 02

  She's actually dying.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  Yes, she's dead.

• 2:01:07Speaker 02

  She's dead. Oh, it's too late, it's too late. Thank you.

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:01:11Speaker 02

  That is it. That is it.

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  I mean, I remember when we started the podcast, I created a list, and now I'm, I'm really recalling it. It was 30 people that I had on the list, and Grace was on it. What's so interesting to me is that if you fast forward two years, I didn't even realize that she watched the pa, the, the podcast. But to sit and hear her talk about how she watches it and therefore only wanted to come on when she had something of substance, to me, that was super special. You see how she, at 27, I consider her a young woman, how she has done extremely well in a short period of time, and how much more she has to achieve.

• 2:01:59Speaker 02

  But I think this notion of never give up, always have hope, you know, fight to the last breath, like all of those lessons, I think you can pull from her story. Until this research, I didn't know there was a difference between G.K. Barry and Grace. I thought it was the one person, you know what I mean? But now I see, no, G.K. Barry is a persona. It's a facade. It's a representative of Grace. So that, that's my big kind of epiphany from the conversation. What was it about Simon from the Sidemen that led you to truly fall in love with him?

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  I never talk about this kind of thing. We spoke the whole party. I think we went to sleep at 8:00 a.m.

• 2:02:49Speaker 02

  So then the wedding.

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  Second best day ever.

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  Second best day ever. What is best day ever?

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  Hey, guys, hey, guys, hey, guys, it's time. Welcome back to my channel.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  I wanted to quit my job to do YouTube and music. All I did was that. I didn't eat, I didn't sleep, I didn't speak. My first ever paycheck was like [BLEEP] pounds, and I was so excited. But then I was diagnosed with anorexia, and people would say I looked ill. That would really incentivize me. I'd be like, brilliant, that means it's working. That's when something just clicked. What am I doing?

• 2:03:30Speaker 02

  The world now knows you and Simon from the Sidemen are together.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  People were horrible. In my DMs, I hope you die.

• 2:03:37Speaker 02

  And how did Simon embrace your autism?

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  It was one of the things he liked about me. How autism is presented in the media is not how I am. I think people forget that it's a spectrum. It presents differently in women.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  You've got the husband, the career, the child. How does that make you feel?

• 2:04:02Speaker 00

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