Why Happy Couples Still Fight & “69% Of Problems Never Go Away”

Paul sits down with world-renowned relationship experts John and Julie Gottman to uncover the science behind love, marriage and lasting connection. They reveal why happy couples still argue, why 69% of relationship problems never truly go away, and why conflict itself isn’t what destroys relationships. From the small daily behaviours that strengthen intimacy to the habits that can slowly damage a partnership, the Gottmans share decades of research into what makes relationships thrive. A fascinating conversation about love, trust, communication and the secrets behind couples who stay together. (00:00) Intro (00:28) Is Marriage Outdated? (07:43) The Gottmans Define a Successful Relationship (12:28) The Gottmans Explain the 6-Second Kiss (16:20) The Number One Cause of Arguments in Relationships Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Welcome to We're Talking. In this episode, I sit down with the Gottmans to ask whether marriage is outdated and what actually makes a relationship last.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Many people believe, perhaps more people than ever before believe, that marriage is outdated. So I ask you, is marriage outdated?

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Uh-uh.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  You know, I think when you consider that the divorce rate has been at 50% for decades now, or a little below that, and you realize that now the children who grew up in divorced families are looking at other relationships, their faith in marriage has been broken. Because, you know, most of them started in some kind of intimate relationship family that then separated. So how can they have faith when the two people, or if they grew up with two people, broke apart?

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  And what we've seen with kids is that, more than anything, kids want their parents to love each other. It's not just getting individual love. They want their parents to love each other. That's why they try so hard, after parents have divorced, to reconnect them, reunite them. That's what they want to see. And so, it's so terrifying for them to enter into a marriage when their example is a broken one.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  And most sociologists really think that we've seen an evolution of marriage to a new level, where people are getting divorced for a new reason now, which is that the marriage doesn't fulfill self-actualization goals, professional development goals. And so, you know, it used to be, and really in 1800, companionate marriage evolved, getting married for love and friendship and intimacy. That was a new idea in 1800, and we've lived with that for a long time. But now, there's another reason to get married. So it's kind of like marriage has transformed over time to be something very different

• 3:11Speaker 03

  than it was. And so, this new demand really makes it kind of scary to get married. Because not only does the marriage have to fulfill the love of your life, great sex, romance and passion forever, a great place to raise children, and find other meanings together as a couple, as a family, but also now, it has to really fulfill individual goals. And that's kind of terrifying. And when people sort of think about entering into a relationship that faces all those challenges

• 3:50Speaker 03

  in the context of that huge divorce rate that we've seen for so long, a lot of people are saying, "I don't want to do that."

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  You know, "It's enough to just build my own career, my own success at a job, and maybe have occasional relationships, so I'm not totally lonely." A lot of people are opting out.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Particularly, I think, women. Because, you know, women had to marry, basically, to have some kind of social status, to be financially taken care of, to fulfill their role as a woman, which typically meant have kids, raise kids. So now that women return to the workforce in the 70s, they get their self-esteem from their careers, their work. They get their financial independence that way.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  So they don't have the same kind of need to marry that they used to. And with the freedom to not marry, many are choosing not to.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Not to, yes.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  On the other hand, you know, in the last 50 years, we've seen the emergence of this field of social epidemiology, which has shown that relationships that have trust and commitment and confer these amazing health benefits, and, you know, in the context of modern medicine, it's really a relationship that provides this resilience from illness and longevity, between 15 and 17 years longer than if you're not in a good relationship. You know, if you're in a happy, stable relationship, you get so much. And children, as Julie pointed out, really flourish in a loving relationship between

• 5:48Speaker 03

  parents, whether they're gay or lesbian, or heterosexual parents. It's really immaterial. And so, relationships confer an enormous amount if there's trust and commitment.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  But if there isn't. So the work of Jim Cohen is very interesting. You know, that hand-holding research, where people...

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Describe it, sweetie.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  So, one partner is in the functional MRI tube, and they're either holding the hand of a stranger, holding the hand of nobody, or holding the hand of their loved ones. And meanwhile, the person in the functional MRI tube is going through a kind of aversive conditioning situation, where, you know, if they see a red cross, 15% of the time, they get a shock to the big toe of one of their feet. So what they're looking at in the brain is the amygdala, the fear center of the brain, lighting up. Well, if you're holding the hand of somebody that you love and are committed to, the fear

• 6:54Speaker 03

  center shuts down, even in this really weird situation where, you know, you're getting the electric shock.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  If you're holding the hand of a stranger, you don't get that benefit at all. The same thing as holding nobody's hand. And when Cohen did the research for gay and lesbian couples, even before the Supreme Court in the United States allowed marriage, gay marriage, if they felt committed to the person, if they felt that they were married, sort of in their minds, they got all the health benefits. And they got that reduction of the fear system. And, but if they didn't, then they got the benefits from a stranger, not from their lover.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 7:43Speaker 03

  So they were more open to being comforted from a stranger than from their lover.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  Fascinating.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  That is fascinating. You know, when I think about, so my wife and I, we've been married for 23 years. And I feel as if we act as stress guards, in essence, you know?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  The guardrails.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  The guardrails.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Against stress.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Which, to me, stress is one of the number-one enemies of...

• 8:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're absolutely right.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  And of relationships.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  And of relationships. You're saying stress destroys...

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Yes. It can.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  It can. And we will get to that, definitely. So then, how do you define a successful relationship? Because you always hear people say, "Ah, we've been married, you know, 50 years, 40 years, therefore, it's a success." But not really. So how do you define a successful...

• 8:33Speaker 03

  Happy and stable. It's really very simple. And easy to measure.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Except not happy all the time. Because nobody is happy all the time.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  No, right. That's right. Not happy all the time.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  You know, I have a little more detailed view of it, which is based on our research, actually, and our theory. First of all, you have to really want to know the other person and keep knowing them as they change over time. And you need to also feel known by your partner. That's important. You need to feel cared for, respected, and admired by your partner. That's really important for each other. You need to know that if you seek attention from your partner, most of the time, you're going to receive it.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Your partner isn't going to just, "Nah, leave me alone, I don't want to talk to you."

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  You need to basically give your partner the benefit of the doubt. So that if they're really grouchy at breakfast, you know, and, "God, you shouldn't run the microwave if there's nothing in it." Well, you think to yourself, if you're in a positive attitude, positive perspective towards your partner, you think, "Ah, they must have had a bad night of sleep." Or they've got, you know, they're really scared because they have a difficult meeting today. Then, you can manage conflict well. It's not about eliminating it. A lot of people think if you solve all your fights and all your conflicts, that means you have a good marriage. No, it doesn't.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Because, you know, most people have conflicts and many of those conflicts are perpetual. Right? Sixty-nine percent of the problems that couples face between each other are perpetual. They never go away.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Which is amazing. You know, it's interesting. I think out of a relationship, I would say, I don't get that. But being married.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Now you got it. Now you got it. Yep, twenty-three years and the same issues keep coming up. So, you know, they're based on either differences in lifestyle preference or personality differences. Yeah, well, we all have those, right?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Another marker of a successful relationship is that you feel like your own personal dreams are gonna be at least respected and honored and supported. You know, for example, I wanted to go to Mount Everest. Well, this boy wants to go to the living room. You know, and so, but he supported me, you know, in that adventure, though, you know, it's a nightmare for him. That was amazing to me. That was fantastic. And last but not least, you need to have a sense of shared meaning.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  And what I mean by that is not that you have the same sense of meaning and purpose, but that you can talk about it. You can share it with your partner. That's really important at a deeper level.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yes. So then what percentage? And I feel like every time I'm going to data, I'm gonna come to you. I've seen you so much. It's interesting. You said you have these beautiful anecdotal stories, right? And then John is like, here's what the data says.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  I know.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  It's like the perfect partnership. But what does the data say in terms of what percentage are satisfied?

• 12:06Speaker 00

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• 12:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a really great question. You know, of course, you know, when you measure it, you always get a bell curve, you know?

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Which is what?

• 12:46Speaker 03

  You know, the normal curve, which is this, you know, most people are in the middle, right? And then there are the ends. And so, most people would say, based upon that, about thirty-five percent of all marriages are happily, are happy, a stable marriage, thirty-five percent. But I think it's much higher than that.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  I think, I think it's closer to seventy-five, eighty percent.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Really? Not by the normal curve. It'd be fifty percent.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  I know. But, you know, but I think that the reality is better than the measure.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  He's an optimist. Does the data show that?

• 13:22Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Okay. Fair enough.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  Most people are pretty happily married.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  You have both gotten me into quite a bit of trouble. And I'll tell you why. It's the six-second kiss has gotten me into trouble.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  What, is it a peck on the cheek?

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Well, so it's funny, this morning, because my wife was so excited that I was coming to interview you both today. So, the first thing I did is I woke up, I gave her a six-second kiss. And she said, I know why you did that. I thought, does that mean I'm not doing that? But the reason why you got me into trouble is because I was, I was on a talk show and I, you know, I divulged the research that you did around this. And the clip went viral, viral. And there were three camps of responders behind this. One camp said, what? Everyone is doing this. This is ridiculous. Like, of course, everyone's doing a six-second kiss. And I thought, no, they're not.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Count it. One thousand, two, one thousand, three. Yeah, it's long.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  It's long. There was another camp that said, if you are doing a six-second kiss, it means sex must be coming. And I thought, that's interesting that immediately your thought is that if that happens, that sex would then come after. And so, I thought that was interesting. And then the other camp said, you know, what's the point to doing this?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Oxytocin.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  What? And so, what's your response across the board? Like, what is this study, the six-second kiss? And then what's the response to all of those, those comments?

• 15:01Speaker 03

  Well, you know, there's an interesting book called The Science of Kissing.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Hold on, let me write this down.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  And they reviewed a study done in Germany that showed that men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live an average of five years longer than men who don't. And that's not a six-second kiss. It's just a peck on the cheek.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 15:27Speaker 03

  Just a peck on the cheek.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Five years longer of life. Now, twenty-second hug results in oxytocin getting secreted. So, Paul Zach's research on the trust game shows that if you spray oxytocin on people's nose, they, they contribute more in the trust game. They're more generous and more loving in this trust game. You get this fear reduction, you know, like in Jim Collins' research where the amygdala is shut down. That's what oxytocin does. And all mammals secrete oxytocin with a twenty-second hug or a six-second kiss. That's why it's so powerful. But even a peck on the cheek, five more years of life.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Five more years of life?

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Go home and tell your wife.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Doesn't have to be a six-second kiss to give you five more years of life.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also, how you describe the research is it's mutual benefit.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  So, you're getting that. Your partner's getting that as well.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  It's a win.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. Even if you look into, you know, your chihuahua's eyes, you know, for six seconds, you both are secreting oxytocin.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Really?

• 16:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. That's a mammal, a response of two mammals.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  We cuddle with our dog every morning.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Oh, we do.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  He's such a sweetheart. Especially if we're kissing, he's right there.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Like a kid, right in between.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  How conscious are you two about the research in terms of applying the research to your, to your marriage?

• 16:57Speaker 03

  We do it.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  You do?

• 16:58Speaker 03

  We do it very consciously.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  All the time.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Okay. Six-second kiss, you're trying to do that daily? I mean, John looks like he wants to kiss you right now.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  I know. That's why I was disappointed we're so far apart.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  I tell you what, even now pivoting, I hate, because this is such a warm, fuzzy space, now pivoting to conflict.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  The horrible stuff.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  What is the number one reason for fights in a relationship?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Is nothing? Is nothing?

• 17:29Speaker 03

  Most couples fight about absolutely nothing. So, you know, he's got the remote. He's got the remote and he's switching channels. And she says, leave it on that one. And he says, just a minute, let me see what else is on. She says, no, leave it on that channel. He's, no, let me see what else is on. And she says, I said, leave it. And he says, you know, have it your way, damn it.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  And he walks out of the room.

• 17:57Speaker 03

  I don't want to watch television with you. You're such a jerk. What do they fight about?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Nothing. Absolutely.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  That's right. No, you need to put the dishes in the dishwasher this way, not that way. That's gonna waste space.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  But isn't it something to someone?

• 18:17Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  It is.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  You know, so most of it really are these failed bids for connection, you know, that they just don't go right, you know? And it seems like the conflict emerged out of nothing, out of, out of thin air, out of the blue, right? And you can put it in categories and say, well, you know, it's about money, or it's about sex, or it's about in-laws, or, you know.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Kids.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  Kids. But most fighting really isn't about topics like that.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  So, is it more so about how we manage the fight, right? Because you mentioned sixty-nine percent of conflict won't be resolved.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Right? It won't be. And I think if you even approach your relationship that way, you become empowered.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  But what are, but it's how you go about that. So, what are the different conflict styles to manage the conflict?

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Well, you know, there are basically three different styles of managing conflict that we've seen in couples in research, and they all work. They're all okay. So, there's avoidant conflict. So, they, they avoid conflicts. They may agree to disagree, or they'll just, nah, let's not talk about that. That's not a big deal. You know, they'll minimize it. They're not bringing out the conflict and really hashing it over.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  So, they agree to disagree. That's conflict avoiders. The second are people that we call validators. And they will express some of their emotion, but not super passionately and intensely. You know, they'll just be very calm, kind of rational, and they'll move very quickly into problem solving. But, you know, there's a little bit of emotion that's expressed on each side. And finally, there are couples that we call volatiles, here I am, that are passionate and intense and express their emotion like right off the bat and really, really intensely, and it's very heated and so on. And they do just fine, too.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  Mixed couples, one's a validator and one's a volatile.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Like this, like you?

• 20:34Speaker 03

  I'm the avoider. I'm an avoider and she's a volatile.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  Oy, what are you gonna do?

• 20:40Speaker 03

  But as long as there is a five to one ratio, a positive to negative, or in conflict, all styles work.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Is that the golden conflict?

• 20:48Speaker 03

  That's the golden conflict.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Conflict ratio.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Okay, so as long as it's five to one, but in a positive relationship.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  Five times more positive than negative.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Than negative.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Well, it's just, so the five to one ratio is just describing the fifteen minute conflict conversation you're having, and how many positive exchanges are there, or expressions of emotion, compared to expressions of negativity.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Within the fifteen minutes?

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Within that fifteen minutes.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Ooh, okay.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  You see, so positivity can be just, you know, like that. It can just be a nod of the head. That's positive.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, good point.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Or, oh, that's great. You know, that kind of stuff. That's all the positive stuff. It's just making eye contact and smiling if the other person makes a joke. That's positive.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  But it feels really different, sir. It's kind of like if you had a salt shaker, and the salt shaker contained all the ways you could be agreeable. You could say, mm, good point, interesting. And you sprinkle that through the whole interaction, that's what a good, good relationship looks like. Whereas if you had a salt shaker that had all the ways you can disagree and say, no, that's wrong, ridiculous, sprinkle that through the interaction, that's an unhappy marriage.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Interesting. So we should be very conscious, now I'm going to be even ultra-conscious now, just to be as positive.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  And positive doesn't mean you agree with your partner. It means you're kind of saying, oh, no, tell me more about that.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  That's interesting.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  That's interesting. Oh, good point. Wow, really? You think that? You know, those little things.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Help me understand that.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  Help me understand that. And those things sprinkled through, now it seems like you're both working on the same problem together. It's like you're pushing in the same direction.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  And if you want to hear the full, unfiltered stories from today's guest, you can check them out on the We Need to Talk page. Drop a like, leave a comment, and hit subscribe. See you next week.