Instagram Wants to be YouTube Now?

This week, Marques, Andrew, and David talk about a new standalone gadget for Thanksgiving, Instagram launching long form videos, and Google taking AI (and Google Search?) out of schools. Then, Marques tells a quick story about how he had everyone in The Studio going crazy for two hours. It's a fun one! Links: MKBHD: Macbook PROLED Verge: Instagram Long form videos NY Times: Google disables Search in Schools 9to5Google: ChatGPT roughly 20% of Google This episode brought to you by: Firefox: https://www.firefox.com Framer: https://www.framer.com/wave Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/waveform Base44: https://www.base44.com/wave Verizon Follow us on socials: Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Waveform Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Waveform Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/?hl=en Waveform TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Intro/Outro music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:20Speaker 01

  I'm a voice agent powered by Deepgram. I don't just understand words, I understand context. Like when you're fixing the sink and say, We've got a leak! You're talking about a pipe. But when you're a new parent and you say, We've got a leak! You mean that you're going to have to change into a clean shirt.

• 0:36David Imel?

  Oh, it's everywhere.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Deepgram understands words and context across STT, TTS, and voice agents. That means better conversations at production scale. Learn more at deepgram.com/contextiseverything.

• 0:50Speaker 03

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• 1:34David Imel?

  Instagram, not having a chronological feed be the default and having an explore page to find new people and new things from people you don't know is most of the point of Instagram. And to say that it's not about entertainment and it's only about connecting with your friends, that was Instagram like 15 years ago, maybe?

• 1:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes, I agree.

• 1:50David Imel?

  But it's clearly not that anymore.

• 1:56David Imel?

  Yo, what is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts, I'm Marquez. I'm Andrew. I'm David. And over at the producer desk, I see Ellis and...

• 2:05Speaker 05

  Oh, wait, what's that? Do you hear that, guys?

• 2:08David Imel?

  What's going on? Whoa.

• 2:10Speaker 05

  He's back! He's better than ever!

• 2:13David Imel?

  Whoa.

• 2:14Speaker 05

  Here he is, back from Japan and Thailand!

• 2:18David Imel?

  We've waited so long for this.

• 2:19Speaker 05

  Adam Molina!

• 2:21David Imel?

  You went to Thailand?

• 2:22Speaker 06

  Thank you, thank you. Yes, I was in Thailand, yeah.

• 2:24David Imel?

  I only knew about Japan, that's crazy.

• 2:26Speaker 06

  I know. I'm back!

• 2:27David Imel?

  Welcome back.

• 2:28Speaker 06

  Thank you. It's good to be back. Missed you, guys.

• 2:30David Imel?

  Just in time for Tech-ember. Boy, do we have a lot going on.

• 2:32Speaker 06

  I feel like there was a lot that happened that I was...

• 2:35David Imel?

  Brother, brother. You missed Tech H2.

• 2:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:40David Imel?

  Basically.

• 2:41Speaker 06

  You said it was like the craziest one since like 2018 or something? And I was like, wow, what a month for me to be gone.

• 2:45David Imel?

  It was, but it was like 90% because of Apple, so... Yeah, a lot of spread out events.

• 2:49Speaker 06

  That makes sense.

• 2:50David Imel?

  Anyway, we are at the tail end of that. And so we do have stuff to talk about, like, uh, Google not allowing schools to use Google, Reddit requiring people to log in, all sorts of other...

• 3:02Speaker 06

  Something about Instagram.

• 3:03David Imel?

  Yeah, Instagram, Longform, I heard they're trying to thing. I kind of forgot what this podcast was about when there's no Apple Stories. Yeah. Oh, don't worry, we have an Apple Story. Hold on, a second, let me just, let me just turn this...

• 3:13Speaker 05

  Oh!

• 3:14David Imel?

  Yeah. Wait, did you just touch your screen? Yeah, I just, uh, I just turned the brightness of the backlight of the Apple logo on. Why would you touch your MacBook screen? That's weird. Because, uh, touchscreen MacBook Pro. What? It's a thing. That's crazy. So, yeah, we got a whole lot going on. Um, but first, slash second, since Adam's back now, but also Mariah is here.

• 3:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, we're gonna ask Adam to leave just briefly, even though we just got here.

• 3:36David Imel?

  Welcome back, get the [__] out of here.

• 3:37Speaker 05

  Mariah's back, everybody!

• 3:39David Imel?

  But also Mariah is back.

• 3:43David Imel?

  You have a specific, "Did they even test this?"

• 3:45Speaker 06

  Did they even test this? Okay, I'm here just to rant, sorry, Adam. I need your chair. Um, does anyone else have anything more important than what I have to say?

• 3:55Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 3:55Speaker 06

  Okay, great.

• 3:56David Imel?

  Absolutely not.

• 3:57Speaker 06

  Rocket Money. What are you doing?

• 4:01Andrew Manganelli?

  At them.

• 4:02Speaker 06

  Rocket Money, I am ready to leave. It's, it's almost over if you don't fix this for me. Um, specifically, I have complaints about adding manual transactions. Why do you have features locked to mobile? Why aren't they on desktop too? That would be really great. Um, I want to make manual transactions not only on my phone. That would be amazing. And, um, subgroup tags for expenses. Say you have a restaurant budget category, eating out category. Why can I only make a subgroup for coffee on my phone? Why can't I make another subgroup on my computer?

• 4:39Andrew Manganelli?

  It's so funny because the stuff, it sounds like you want to do is like kind of power user-esque stuff, but to lock it on mobile feels crazy.

• 4:47Speaker 06

  Why are we locking things to mobile?

• 4:48David Imel?

  Did they, now, did they lock it to mobile? Or did they just build it first for mobile and maybe they'll add it to the desktop?

• 4:56Speaker 06

  They're never gonna add it.

• 4:57David Imel?

  Weird.

• 4:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Is Rocket Mobile desktop an app or in browser?

• 5:01Speaker 06

  It's, I use it in browser. I don't know if there's an application, and if there is, cut this.

• 5:07Andrew Manganelli?

  No, I mean, I think that's fair. Instagram definitely does this right now where like in browser makes it impossible to do anything and they want you to use the app. But I think that's crazy. Um, maybe Rocket Money has that, but I agree with you. Like, the things you're asking to do are very simple. Where like in browser posting stories is probably a pain in the neck.

• 5:27David Imel?

  Rocket Money's Mac app is an iPhone app.

• 5:30Andrew Manganelli?

  It is an iPhone app.

• 5:31David Imel?

  But, okay.

• 5:32Andrew Manganelli?

  That's terrible.

• 5:33David Imel?

  Interesting.

• 5:33Speaker 06

  Well, if they don't fix it, somebody please post better budgeting apps. I'm ready to leave.

• 5:37David Imel?

  I can recommend one right now. I use, I use one called Copilot.

• 5:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait.

• 5:42Speaker 06

  All right, Adam, it's your turn to come back.

• 5:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Microsoft Copilot?

• 5:45David Imel?

  No, it's a totally separate app.

• 5:46Andrew Manganelli?

  This is, this is a question on Reddit the other day. What's that?

• 5:50Speaker 06

  Copilot is iPhone only.

• 5:53David Imel?

  Oh, right.

• 5:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:54David Imel?

  You need it to be Android and Mac.

• 5:56Speaker 06

  Me and Mariah are pixel ads. Oh, no, you're Samsung now, so, yeah.

• 5:58David Imel?

  Why don't you just use your bank?

• 5:59Andrew Manganelli?

  A Samsung Sue.

• 6:01David Imel?

  To like, know how much money you have. The app like aggregates several sources. So you could have your bank account and your credit card and your like... Doesn't your bank do that too? If you have stocks or something, like you could have all of the stuff in one place.

• 6:16Speaker 06

  And if all of your cards and stuff are from the same bank, then your banking app will do it. But like, I can't put in like a Bank of America credit card on my Chase app, you know?

• 6:24David Imel?

  Yeah, or the Apple credit card, whatever. Like you have several places you try to put them all in one place.

• 6:28Speaker 06

  Devs, fix this.

• 6:30David Imel?

  Wait.

• 6:31Speaker 06

  I'm leaving forever.

• 6:32David Imel?

  I also have a, "Did they even test this?" Is that okay that I bring this up today?

• 6:36Andrew Manganelli?

  You can bring it up today. Thank you, Mariah.

• 6:37David Imel?

  Thank you, Mariah. Thank you, Mariah. This went...

• 6:40Andrew Manganelli?

  You're stuck with me now.

• 6:42David Imel?

  This went live this morning, which is why I wanted to bring this up. So, last week I complained that Fitbod, which is my workout app, had not updated for the iPhone Duo. I think it did, right? It did this morning. Yeah. I feel that they wrote down what they think it should do and just told like Claude to make it do that.

• 7:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Dude, that's all the apps.

• 7:03David Imel?

  But they don't have an iPhone Duo to like test it on? Ah. Because when you open it, uh, it added like sidebar support, but...

• 7:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Can you screen record?

• 7:13David Imel?

  Sort of sidebar support, yeah, I'll screen record for you. Sort of sidebar support, it's got the replace function, which is generally like in a submenu, but it's under the controls. Oh. And then, like, you should be able to swipe to the right because there's a delete button that you see like an eighth of, but you can't and it doesn't do anything. Also, they broke the calendar. So it's like, all the settings are hidden under all of the other settings now. And the app is just worse in every way. I can't expand the calendar like I used to expand it. I used to be able to expand it. Even when you open it up, it's like identical, but the calendar is like omega broken now. It's, yeah, so updating to Duo made it worse. It made it a lot worse and I'm wondering if it's like,

• 7:55David Imel?

  because I know that there's that weird thing where you can be updated for iOS 27, but you can also be updated for iOS 27.2. That looks like a rushed attempt to update to 27.2 in Duo when they probably have more work to do. I can't even open the calendar view now.

• 8:10Andrew Manganelli?

  That's so bad.

• 8:10David Imel?

  Like, half of the app is actually broken now. It's possible they didn't test it. Or they just, like, the emulator on the Mac is not allowing... It's very possible they use the emulator on the Mac, but they don't have a Duo to actually test it on.

• 8:22Andrew Manganelli?

  This Duo sidebar thing seems like it's, like, Apple developers are getting a taste of what it's like to have to do a bunch of different things for Android, where like this sidebar seems like it's causing a lot of issues.

• 8:34David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 8:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Because most of the times when I see an, when an app, it either looks bad with a black sidebar or if you don't nail it, it looks somehow even worse because so many things are overlapping and essentially impossible to press.

• 8:47David Imel?

  I mean, this is Instagram's problem too. Instagram optimized for Duo for the inner display, but the outer display is broken as hell. Yeah, I remember that. There's everything floating over everything else. When you do it, when you go to post an Instagram story on Instagram on the Duo, the, uh, the back button, that's like the liquid glass back button, is on top of the done button. Right. So you have to like... Overlapping elements, that's how you know, yeah. It's so, it's, yeah, anyway. This is, this is why I said it would take a couple of months. Like, obviously, people are going to, I think I talked about it in the last week or maybe the week before, where like there's this mad dash to be like the ones that first support the Duo, so you can be featured in the App Store section, which is, you know, for Duo and you get all the press of being optimized for the Duo.

• 9:29David Imel?

  Uh, but there is also probably some more time to be spent like figuring out how you want to really take advantage of the extra space that the Duo gives you. Yeah. Obviously, putting the buttons on the side is a part of that, but maybe you want to like do a two-column layout instead of stretching something. Maybe you want to do more unique things with the open layout. Yeah. They're gonna figure that out over time. Yeah. So Duo will get better, but it's getting slightly worse before it gets better. I just... It'll get better. I hope that this was an intentional thing that Fitbod did so that they can be like, oh, it's really broken, we'll fix it. And it wasn't just sort of an automatic thing that happened because they optimized for iOS 27, but not for 27.2. Yeah. Fitbod people, if you can hear me, I will test this for you. Like, send me a beta version, please send me a test flight, I will...

• 10:12David Imel?

  Send you screenshots. I will send you everything you need. I just, I can't even use it now. It's like very bad. So.

• 10:19Andrew Manganelli?

  It's weird because it's like the most basic things also. It's not like you're in a specific menu or anything. You're just in the homepage.

• 10:27David Imel?

  Well, this is the other weird thing is that with the duo, because they have the sidebar thing now, a lot of apps updated to have this sort of floating card style thing, which Instagram also now has with DMs, like DMs just float above other content. Seems weird. It just seems very strange and it doesn't need to be there because it's not actually floating above anything else.

• 10:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 10:48David Imel?

  I don't know. It's really broken. So they definitely did not test this, or if they did, it was just in the emulator.

• 10:54Andrew Manganelli?

  I can't even imagine how it would get out of the emulator and look like that. It's, it's just straight up, the sidebar buttons are overlapping.

• 11:00David Imel?

  Yeah. I can't even click on anything. It's just, yeah, it's really broken.

• 11:04Andrew Manganelli?

  That's pretty terrible.

• 11:06David Imel?

  You're gonna make me go back to the 18 Pro Max. I swear to God. So write an article about it.

• 11:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Adam, do you want to give us a TLDR of where you've been? Cause there were some rumors flying around.

• 11:15David Imel?

  What were the rumors? Oh God.

• 11:16Andrew Manganelli?

  My favorite, my favorite one was you were on paternity leave because you just disappeared for six weeks.

• 11:22Speaker 06

  Not on paternity leave. No, yeah, no, that wasn't it. Uh, I just got married. So I am a taken man. Sorry, David.

• 11:32David Imel?

  We get it. You've got a girlfriend.

• 11:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Not anymore.

• 11:37Speaker 06

  Not anymore. Now it's a wife. Uh, so I went on my honeymoon and I went to Thailand. I visited Chiang Mai, Bangkok, Koh Samui, which I'm sure I'm mispronouncing. I visited Japan, Osaka, Kyoto, Tokyo. Amazing. Trip of a lifetime. It was amazing, but I am glad to be back. It was a long month. I unplugged completely from all tech news. So on the flight back, which was like 20 hours or something, I just like binged this podcast.

• 12:04David Imel?

  You binged Techtober?

• 12:05Speaker 06

  I binged Techtober and I'm sitting.

• 12:08David Imel?

  Injected into my veins.

• 12:09Speaker 06

  Dude, it was nuts. I was sitting there like, oh my God, so much happened.

• 12:13David Imel?

  You got an entire year of Apple news.

• 12:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:17Andrew Manganelli?

  The touchscreen MacBook Pro, the folding iPhone. The home, the Tesla, like the flying fricking. You guys forgot about that. I was like, what is happening?

• 12:28David Imel?

  I forgot how insane Techtober was this year.

• 12:30Speaker 06

  It was nuts.

• 12:31David Imel?

  You got literally an entire year of tech news in like four hours of wave.

• 12:35Speaker 06

  It was amazing.

• 12:35David Imel?

  That's great.

• 12:36Speaker 05

  One of the only messages you put in Slack the entire time you were gone was in the thread where we were all like watching the Tesla event from home and someone was like, that thing just flew. And you just went, what?

• 12:49David Imel?

  Damn, that must, that's gotta be, that must've been the most surprising.

• 12:52Speaker 06

  It was up there. Yeah. I think this is social media kind of spoiled it for me because I like saw the GIFs and everything like that, but I was like, waiting for the, the actual what the hell happened from the pod. So I had no context going into it outside of like the GIFs.

• 13:04David Imel?

  Wow.

• 13:05Speaker 06

  And yeah, it was, it was insane.

• 13:06David Imel?

  That is sick. What's it like to be married?

• 13:09Speaker 06

  Um, so far, nothing changed, but.

• 13:12Andrew Manganelli?

  You went to Japan for six weeks. I don't think, it doesn't stay like that. I can prophesy.

• 13:16Speaker 06

  I've been married for real in my real life for like four days. So.

• 13:20David Imel?

  Like it just went through.

• 13:22Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, he's saying he like was married and, and lived a different life on his honeymoon for six weeks.

• 13:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was basically married on vacation, which is different from married with like rent and, you know.

• 13:32David Imel?

  Yeah, that's good to know for my future. Yeah.

• 13:34Andrew Manganelli?

  It is. All right, well.

• 13:36David Imel?

  You're welcome.

• 13:37Andrew Manganelli?

  I want to open, first news of this week. I want to open with a banger because a couple of weeks ago, David said, the duo is awesome because it's a gadget and we don't really get gadgets anymore. Well, we got a gadget, boys. Feast your eyes if you want to click this link on this.

• 13:53David Imel?

  But it says, don't click.

• 13:54Andrew Manganelli?

  You can click it now. This is the Butterball.

• 13:58David Imel?

  What?

• 13:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Thanksgiving gadget. Butterball, the turkey company. Um, it is like a little, maybe it's slightly larger than Tamagotchi size, um, blue turkey. Like, like tur- not turkey, like the animal, turkey, like what you're about to cook, which is obviously still the animal, but, and it has a screen. It's called the Butterball Buddy and it is dropping on November 9th. And essentially what it is, is a small gadget where after Thanksgiving dinner, you pass it around like hot potato and it can give you chores to do for cleaning up after Thanksgiving. So it's like how to pick who does the dishes. You can pass it around and whoever it lands on gets a little, uh, screen that says,

• 14:41Andrew Manganelli?

  you have to do the dishes or one that says, um, you have to help host prep the food.

• 14:47David Imel?

  Wait, so.

• 14:47Andrew Manganelli?

  It dishes out Thanksgiving chores or responsibilities.

• 14:51David Imel?

  It's a gadget that makes you do work?

• 14:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 05

  No, I hate this dude.

• 14:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought you were gonna love this. It's Butterball.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  This requires you to talk to your family, bro.

• 15:00Andrew Manganelli?

  No, it doesn't.

• 15:00Speaker 05

  I can just have Gemini generate me a podcast about who has to do what chores after. We could all just sit in silence while we eat our box stuffing.

• 15:08Andrew Manganelli?

  This is easy because then you don't have to ask Ellis to help me with the dishes. You can just be like, sorry, dog. Butterball buddies.

• 15:14David Imel?

  By the way, you guys, uh, you guys doing anything on Thanksgiving that I might be able to come to?

• 15:21Andrew Manganelli?

  So we want to do podcast Thanksgiving?

• 15:22David Imel?

  This week, this, this Thanksgiving. Yeah, I mean. Uh, I'm teaching a frisbee clinic on the weekend after. If you want to come teach some kids to throw. I can't throw, bro.

• 15:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Also, it's the weekend after. Wait, like the weekend directly.

• 15:35David Imel?

  Oh, the day of Thanksgiving? Yeah, I just don't really know what it's like to have a family. So I'm kind of.

• 15:39Speaker 05

  I'm gonna be in Long Island. You're more than welcome to drive out with me if you want.

• 15:43David Imel?

  I mean, I live on Long Island, so it's fine. All right.

• 15:45Andrew Manganelli?

  What?

• 15:46Speaker 05

  What?

• 15:46David Imel?

  Yeah. Brooklyn is on Long Island.

• 15:48Speaker 05

  Technically, yes.

• 15:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, really?

• 15:50David Imel?

  The corner.

• 15:51Andrew Manganelli?

  You live under Long Island because you live in a.

• 15:53David Imel?

  No, it's technically part of Long Island.

• 15:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Never mind. I meant like, cause you're below the.

• 15:56David Imel?

  Oh, yeah. Cause I live.

• 15:57Andrew Manganelli?

  I used your joke and you didn't even.

• 15:58David Imel?

  Thanks. Anyway, we can continue.

• 16:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Guys.

• 16:01David Imel?

  I'm sorry. We're so off topic.

• 16:03Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know what I'm doing yet, but if you want to come.

• 16:06David Imel?

  That's nice of you. I appreciate it.

• 16:08Andrew Manganelli?

  No problem.

• 16:09David Imel?

  That sounded like a polite decline.

• 16:12David Imel?

  Nicely played.

• 16:13Andrew Manganelli?

  I had to offer. I knew it was coming, but we had to offer.

• 16:15Speaker 05

  No, Andrew, in all seriousness, this, uh.

• 16:18Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought it was fun.

• 16:18Speaker 05

  This is a cute little thing. I'm just being facetious.

• 16:21David Imel?

  So is, this isn't like a gag thing that doesn't actually exist?

• 16:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Uh, I think it, I think it's one of those marketing ploys that exists extremely limited and is much more for the, the clicks online and.

• 16:35David Imel?

  Yeah. Cause it says it's out of stock, which I can't imagine people have been buying this. How much stock was that?

• 16:40Andrew Manganelli?

  I wonder if they did it last year and I missed it, but it says, make sure to stop by November 9th for the next drop. So maybe they just release it around Thanksgiving. That's my guess, but this is very clearly something that like, probably a thousand exist and it sells out immediately. Yeah.

• 16:55David Imel?

  Yeah. Okay. Well, this could be a, an app. Would you rather have this or the iPhone Duo?

• 17:00Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, honestly, this.

• 17:03David Imel?

  Standalone device. I mean, it's, I guess this is supposed to be fun.

• 17:08Speaker 06

  Yeah. The little blue turkey that tells me to do work is real fun.

• 17:12David Imel?

  It's supposed to be, yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 06

  This is very colorful.

• 17:16Speaker 05

  People don't do their chores on Thanksgiving. That is like a real thing.

• 17:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Also, you could probably get Claude to hack into this and make sure it lands on the specific person you want to do the dishes. And then we're riding free on Thanksgiving.

• 17:26David Imel?

  I wonder if I could play Doom on this.

• 17:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Probably.

• 17:29Speaker 06

  If you're hosting Thanksgiving, you should have the power to just point at people and yell chores.

• 17:33David Imel?

  That's actually how it works with my family.

• 17:36Andrew Manganelli?

  I do think it's fair on Thanksgiving. If you're the one hosting and you got all the food on the table and everyone had a good job, you are done for the night. You don't leave the table. Everyone else clears everything, throws it in the dishwasher or whatever. Dessert comes out. You haven't moved. You eat and then you fall asleep at that chair.

• 17:51Speaker 06

  Are you hosting this year? Is this you telling your family how to treat you this year?

• 17:54Andrew Manganelli?

  This is my typical Thanksgiving thing is tell everyone I want to host and then don't actually make any real plans and then just absolutely suffer towards the end of it. So we'll see.

• 18:03David Imel?

  I'll probably be at the bar across the street.

• 18:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Do they serve turkey?

• 18:08David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 18:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Probably.

• 18:08David Imel?

  Probably got like turkey beer or something.

• 18:14Andrew Manganelli?

  All right.

• 18:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Speaking of.

• 18:18Speaker 06

  Beer.

• 18:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Instagram long form videos. We've got Instagram long form videos next. Did you guys see this?

• 18:24Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 18:25David Imel?

  I saw the headlines of it. I actually wish I was able to follow this more because I know that Adam Masary is like, posted about it and like explained it in his video. I haven't seen that yet, but I did see the headline that is, oh yeah, you can post like long form widescreen videos on Instagram now. And I think I even went to my explore page recently and there was one sitting at the top. So it's, it's happening. Yeah. See like at the top, there's a widescreen video.

• 18:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, wait, if you click it, whose is that?

• 18:52David Imel?

  Uh, it's.

• 18:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Or just.

• 18:54David Imel?

  Lexus? It's a collab post.

• 18:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 18:57David Imel?

  But yeah, it's, it's two different people.

• 19:00Speaker 05

  Am I crazy for thinking this is gonna?

• 19:01Speaker 06

  Work.

• 19:03David Imel?

  Hmm.

• 19:03Andrew Manganelli?

  It's gonna work.

• 19:04David Imel?

  Well, the history of Instagram, Instagram trying, trying long form videos is actually kind of long. If you remember, do you remember IGTV?

• 19:12Speaker 06

  Oh, God, I'll do I.

• 19:14David Imel?

  So they tried IGTV, which was a separate app at first.

• 19:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 19:18David Imel?

  And then they eventually folded it in and it was reels, but they want, they always wanted a place for people to put videos because Instagram was always just photos. Eventually we got a whole bunch of short form vertical and that seems to be working, but they want to compete with YouTube.

• 19:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 19:31David Imel?

  And offer widescreen long form, which as we all know on YouTube, like we are here, is a great way to like do longer videos and build community and all that other fun stuff. But Instagram has still like a, a void of that. People don't really post that type of stuff on Instagram. So they're trying to support it better. That being said, uh, YouTube has a bunch of other stuff like a monetization program that make a big difference as far as wanting to post on YouTube.

• 19:57Andrew Manganelli?

  You're cruising through my notes. That's okay. Sorry, sorry. I didn't mean it like that.

• 20:02David Imel?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 20:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm just saying, I'm just, you're coming to the same conclusion.

• 20:04David Imel?

  Without reading the articles yet or seeing what Adam has said yet, this is what's going through my head, which is like, okay, you plan on supporting long form. Do you plan on changing anything other than just injecting the video format into explore?

• 20:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, let's, let's go through all, I watched the video and I can explain it to you a little bit.

• 20:21Speaker 06

  I have the devil's advocate on why.

• 20:23Andrew Manganelli?

  On this. Sure. Continue. We'll get there. Um, they're launching long form horizontal videos and a couple of things that have changed there. We have a new tab in Instagram now.

• 20:34David Imel?

  Performatively scrolling the entire time on my, uh, keep going.

• 20:38Andrew Manganelli?

  On your touchscreen. We get it. We get it. Um, the video was like six minutes of him and the VP of products kind of talking. First of all, about how much Adam Mazari said he's never wanted this and that how she convinced him that they do want it.

• 20:53David Imel?

  Great.

• 20:54Andrew Manganelli?

  It was a pretty boring video, but, um, a big reason they kept saying, which I was very confused about. They kept saying the main reason for making these long form videos is because Instagram is not about entertainment, but with connecting with friends. And over the last decade, like we've all seen Instagram changing. This is in my eyes as a place that's not actively about caring about or keeping in touch with your friends at all. And this feels like the exact opposite of that. I mean, they said, yeah, they said connecting with friends, both of them, like four or five times in a six minute.

• 21:28David Imel?

  If it was about connect. That's why I'm on B real. I don't know if I want to inject now or just wait for the end, but like Instagram not having a chronological feed be the default. And having an explore page to find new people and new things from people you don't know is most of the point of Instagram. And to say that it's not about entertainment and it's only about connecting with your friends, that was Instagram like 15 years ago.

• 21:49Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree.

• 21:50David Imel?

  Uh, but it's clearly not that anymore.

• 21:52Speaker 06

  Not that anymore.

• 21:52Andrew Manganelli?

  That was their main thing that they kept regurgitating to make it sound like this is like good for you. But then they also made one other, um, point in there about how a lot of reels have turned into clipping out of long form videos and being posted on Instagram. And when they said that, that's when I was like, cool. Now we know why we're doing this because they understand that they're missing a, they're not getting a piece of the pie. Like stop, they don't want things clipping and moving into Instagram without them hosting the full suite of whatever. I think that's the pretty obvious thing here.

• 22:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Did you, sorry.

• 22:26David Imel?

  Well, there's that. And there's the fact that they recently made the Instagram TV apps.

• 22:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Last year, which I had no idea.

• 22:32David Imel?

  It was very, well, but then recently they had launched like new versions of it, I believe.

• 22:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Was it? Apparently it launched last year.

• 22:39David Imel?

  Okay.

• 22:40Andrew Manganelli?

  But yes, and that, then they start talking about how these things, they want it to be on TV. Uh, because of their Instagram TV app and that previously was mostly just watching reels, which we all know, watching vertical content on TV is horrible.

• 22:55David Imel?

  Yes. You have that, uh, what was that Samsung TV that rotated back in the day at CES? There's an Apple TV app that launched, uh, this month. So, but I, I feel like all of this was just made for trying to compete with YouTube, you know? All of these, all of these platforms are just trying to be each other, you know, like YouTube is trying to be Netflix. So they like have the shows and stuff in the YouTube feed now. Netflix wants to be YouTube by like putting pod, video podcasts on Netflix. Now, and now Instagram is just like, we see the growth of content viewing on TV because YouTube's TV view, viewership has just gone like this. And so they're just like, well, if we have all of this video content that people are watching all the time, why don't we get in on that?

• 23:41Andrew Manganelli?

  No, I, they're so clearly like Instagram realizes so much of their stuff is the same content as on other platforms. Like, you know, they stole stories from Snapchat. They're stealing all this short form stuff from TikTok. Now they're doing long form for YouTube. They want everything to be in the same place. They know that the stuff on Instagram is essentially not always made just for Instagram. It's really easy for all of us to post vertical content on Instagram because we can post it on four other websites and have this so much less effort put into it. But now they're missing the long form thing, which sucks on a phone, but they have the TV app. They, they want it to be one of the features they mentioned is like, you could be scrolling a reel. And if it's just a clip of something, it can now link to the long form video, which you can watch on your TV app.

• 24:23Speaker 06

  Which is what YouTube does. And it gets us like 0.01% of views because those are two different audiences.

• 24:29David Imel?

  That's a human problem, not a YouTube problem. But yeah, they do offer the link between the short form and the long form. Just people don't click it.

• 24:34Andrew Manganelli?

  And I do think they understand that people are sharing long form videos with friends also. Instagram knows one of the best ways that they keep people on the site is, you know, because they have lots of very easy way to share content that's on the site and not leaving it. This is one step further to not leave their site. Even if you're leaving it for your TV, now your TV is an app. That's the same. Also now Meta is getting access to your TV, which we all learned last week, has plenty of ways to track you, I'm sure. But, um, yeah, I just hated the whole, like, this is to make better connections with your friends and stay in touch with that. Thought that was weird, but then what you mentioned before, in terms of payment, like Instagram does not pay their influencers.

• 25:17Andrew Manganelli?

  It does seem like there's going to be some sort of bonus program coming out where they're offering some select people a bonus payout between 50,000 to like 500,000, depending on who you are. But this seems to be the way they always get people to start posting is like, here's this random bonus thing for three months or whatever.

• 25:33David Imel?

  And we're just gonna sunset it.

• 25:35Andrew Manganelli?

  And then just completely give up. It's like you did the thing to start, but keep going and we're just not going to pay you anymore.

• 25:40David Imel?

  They had that with, uh, threads when it first launched.

• 25:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Did they? They had it with reels for a while as well.

• 25:45David Imel?

  They're paying people like $500 a month to like post enough threads per month. And then they did for like three months and then they just gave up on it.

• 25:50Andrew Manganelli?

  And then they just stopped paying.

• 25:52David Imel?

  The way I see it, there's like two ways that you can incentivize creators to post on your platform. One is through like paying them, like there is a potential for income. And then the other is like social growth. So like people post on TikTok and they don't really make that much money, but they have the potential for tremendous social growth.

• 26:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:08David Imel?

  And that's also true about YouTube shorts. There's channels getting a million subs in a year just from posting shorts. So if you, if your Instagram and you're like, okay, we've got this new thing. We want to be competitive. We want to offer long form videos. If they're not going to do the revenue share thing, if they're not going to have the monetary part, the other thing they could do is just turn it up in the algorithm and make it. Uh, frankly, changes the reputation of Instagram, but it's like, oh, this is the place where long form videos go viral all the time. Then that'll make people want to post long form videos.

• 26:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:38David Imel?

  But that's another like big shift for them. Like Instagram was just photos for forever. And they had to change their reputation really substantially to get to the point now where it's like photos and mostly reels at this point that you see. So they'd have to turn that knob again and like make people see them a lot and they're doing well and you want to be a part of that. That's the other way they could do it.

• 26:57Speaker 06

  You all kind of said my points as to why I think this is going to work because they took stories from Snapchat and I don't go to Snapchat anymore for stories. I go to Instagram for stories.

• 27:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Snapchat screwed up a lot of it.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, but I'm just saying, then they took reels from TikTok and I was just telling, oh, my wife. I was just telling her yesterday about how.

• 27:17Andrew Manganelli?

  We get it, Adam.

• 27:18Speaker 06

  I know, right? I don't really go to TikTok to like go down rabbit holes or something like when I'm bored and I have 10 minutes, I go to Instagram. I just open up Instagram and there's reels. Reels is winning. And then in the way that they don't pay any creators for long form video, they don't do that for reels either. And reels is still everywhere. And that is like the, the memes that I get sent like in my friend group are all on reels. I don't get sent TikToks anymore.

• 27:43Andrew Manganelli?

  It's because of the sharing, the sharing.

• 27:44Speaker 06

  The sharing is really good. As far as advertising, which they have a whole apparatus that they can plug in, play to this new long form video thing. I think also it'll work because you know what's a lot easier to monetize than short form vertical videos is widescreen regular videos that are on your TVs and on your laptops and all the things. Like it's easier to put ads in a 10 minute video that people will sit through and you could just run the YouTube playbook.

• 28:10Andrew Manganelli?

  And directly.

• 28:11Speaker 06

  And directly compensate creators. So I think this might work, but I, who knows?

• 28:17Andrew Manganelli?

  The thing is though, is if you're a long form creator and you're looking to post on this, I can't see how you would have any trust in Instagram paying you. Like they haven't announced that they're paying people. They have four years been like, oh yeah, we're trying, we're trying, but we just can't figure out how to do this. It's like, y'all are big enough and could have figured this out by now.

• 28:36Speaker 06

  I don't think Instagram creators are vying for Instagram to pay them. I think they.

• 28:42Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, I mean, I.

• 28:43Speaker 06

  Everyone is vying for someone to pay that. Gonna say no to more money, but like they're making their money from brand deals. They're making their money from other things. Like people have figured out how to monetize Instagram without Instagram. So if Instagram also throws money on top of the table, why not?

• 28:56Andrew Manganelli?

  The reason getting paid from AdSense though, is it's more consistent, like brand deals come and go. You could have a month where you have a bunch of them. You could have a month where you can't get any of them. Like having that security there is a little nicer. I like, I don't know. I also, here's my kind of tinfoil hat thing. Did YouTube know this was coming? Is that a part of the reason why we're changing YouTube views? Because we know Instagram is going to do totally inflated views for this.

• 29:25David Imel?

  I think that was just because every other like platform used those kind of views. My take is that you really need to change user expectations of what an app is for. I, I don't, I don't see this working very well for them. I don't think that podcasts on Netflix are working very well. All right. So I'm, I'm messing with it now. I have the app right now. It kind of looks like YouTube and Instagram hybrid basically. But like, when you watch a long form video on YouTube, that's what it looks like, right? You have related videos down here and then you can pull up the comments if you want. You can turn it sideways, watch it full screen, big controls, scrub through. It's built correctly, like to watch long form videos, but like you said, it's a, it's a matter of.

• 30:04David Imel?

  Discovery and it is, it is more well-integrated now, so I can just share this and DM it with someone like I could assure it or a reel or whatever. But do I want to? Is that what people are expecting? Are there going to be mid-rolls? Are they going to build all the same features that YouTube has? Yeah. That's interesting.

• 30:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Eventually, for sure.

• 30:20David Imel?

  Yeah, sorry.

• 30:21Andrew Manganelli?

  I was just saying, I don't think they've announced it yet, but we all know it's gonna get an ad at some point.

• 30:25David Imel?

  Yeah, my big take is like, people go to specific platforms for specific types of content, especially if they're on their TV. They're not just gonna be like, opening the Instagram app on their TV, like they know, their expectation is that they do that on their phone. Yeah. And the reason that Spotify was able to get really big into podcasts is because podcasts were still in their explosive growth phase when Spotify added podcasts. Now, most normal people that I ask if they listen to podcasts, they, and if they say, I do now, I say, what, where do you listen? And they say Spotify. Which is crazy to me, because I have never listened to podcasts on Spotify, but it is most people's like default podcast player.

• 31:01David Imel?

  But that's because podcasts were just getting into the mainstream, but I feel like right now, there are sort of cemented content platforms that people go to these platforms for. And you have to change user behavior significantly in order to actually make them start, you know?

• 31:17Speaker 05

  I don't think this requires any like significant user behavior, because I think, I think this is all about people using two screens at the same time. Like always having a phone or a tablet out while they're on their TV. And I think Instagram slash Meta sees a world where they know people are scrolling on Instagram while they're watching TV. And if they can keep an Instagram client on both devices, they'll never have a user leave and they can serve twice as many ads.

• 31:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 05

  And so like, like you're watching something on TV Instagram, you find something interesting on reels Instagram. You hit the play on TV button and the long form just goes to TV. And then you're just in this endless feedback loop of nightmares.

• 31:58David Imel?

  I'd be really curious what sort of long-form content people actually show up to watch on Instagram. Cause when I think of what I want to sit back and watch on a TV, it's like shows, it is the really long-form types of, I believe we've made 30, 40 minute videos, like those types of things. Those videos I could see, but like the stuff that I typically see uploaded to Instagram, it's not that. So I'm curious what's gonna show up. It depends on how they put it in the app. Like my comment was mostly about Instagram on the TV in general. Yeah. But I could see, you know, if you're just scrolling through Instagram and you click a video and it just happens to be 10 minutes. Yeah. That doesn't really require user behavior change. That's also a bit of friction. People usually leave. You mean?

• 32:41David Imel?

  When you, when you click on Instagram reel and you get 30 seconds in and you're like, wait, let's go, this isn't actually interesting, you just move on, usually. Yeah. At this point. So that's another thing for like behavior. And you don't think people do that as much on YouTube? I think when you're on YouTube and you're expecting to watch a longer video, if you're in shorts, like it's the shorts, fast scrolling stuff. But if you're watching long videos on YouTube, you're ready for the next long video on YouTube. True.

• 33:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I, I think in the, like, kind of the social media landscape right now, you use Instagram a lot different than a lot of other social media video makers use. Where like, you still use your Instagram as mostly a way to just like, post some personal things or something. You're having fun. You use it as something completely different than YouTube, where I think so many people who have larger channels, it is continuing the view game. Like, how many clips can I make this video into to go to Instagram to try and bring people here? So they're using it as a

• 33:34Speaker 05

  Why you talking [BLEEP] bro?

• 33:36Andrew Manganelli?

  That was specifically, so I think, I like how you're using Instagram.

• 33:40David Imel?

  Marquez is actually trying to connect with friends.

• 33:42Andrew Manganelli?

  But yeah, like you still use, it's a thing that happens a lot of times when like we get people asking to do ads on Instagram. Like, we say no to it, even more for Instagram and Twitter than we do for other things.

• 33:53David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Because you're like, I mostly like to use this, we'll do one every month, maybe, but you usually use it more as a

• 34:01David Imel?

  Yeah, philosophically, I've, so it is funny that things are going in opposite directions. I've always philosophically treated each different social media site as a completely different siloed place. A different audience, a different user expectation and behavior, and different content. Right. And I think the best way to be on Instagram is to speak the language of Instagram and be on Instagram a lot. And know that people are watching things quickly and like seeing some photos or carousels or whatever. And then to go to YouTube, you don't post the same stuff on YouTube, you are speaking the language of YouTube and you do the YouTube stuff on YouTube. Yeah. But what we're also saying is, it seems like a lot of these apps are like, what's the carsonization thing?

• 34:41David Imel?

  Where they're all sort of becoming the same thing, where like, you could do stories everywhere, you can do long-form everywhere. You can do the same content on TikTok, Instagram reels, YouTube shorts, and like all the same stuff could be everywhere. Yeah. Which is probably the way some people play the game when they're just trying to maximize clicks. Yeah. But I think that's actually less efficient. I think you want to speak the language of each place that you are.

• 35:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I make a, can I make a really bad analogy to that?

• 35:05David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Really quick?

• 35:06David Imel?

  Please.

• 35:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Apps used to feel like we would pick our restaurant, like, I want to have steak tonight, I want to go get a burger.

• 35:13David Imel?

  You gonna talk about the wonder thing?

• 35:15Andrew Manganelli?

  No, now everyone just wants to be Golden Corral, where it's everything in one spot, except all of it sucks.

• 35:21David Imel?

  I think it's like a McDonald's.

• 35:23Andrew Manganelli?

  I love Golden Corral, by the way.

• 35:26David Imel?

  I like, I also like Golden Corral. The reason I say McDonald's is because it's like, it's fast food, it's the thing that's successful, so it's the thing that gets numbers. So you just, you might as well do it, because it's the thing that everyone's consuming.

• 35:36Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess I use buffet with a lot of things, because it used to be, I want a long-form video YouTube. I want to look at pictures that my friends are posting Instagram. I want to just see people with really funny, quick takes Twitter. Now Twitter has short form, yeah, now every single place has a way to post text, a way to post a short form video, a way to post a long form video.

• 35:57David Imel?

  Doesn't TikTok let you post long form? You might as well see a podcast on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Spotify, like everywhere.

• 36:03Andrew Manganelli?

  YouTube did this weird thing recently that I've noticed where they've now ingested long-form videos into their short-form stuff. Where like, if they just run out of shorts to give you, they give you a in-vertical feed, horizontal video.

• 36:18David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:19Andrew Manganelli?

  And all it is, is actually just a snippet from a long-form video that AI or something pulled out and is like, do you want to watch this whole thing and go there?

• 36:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 36:27Andrew Manganelli?

  They're like, going, is that even full circle? Can a circle be inside out? That feels like

• 36:33David Imel?

  Like a figure eight or something?

• 36:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I have no idea. So everything is just trying to be the same thing.

• 36:38David Imel?

  I mean, this is just proof that we're like in the late stage of, of technology-oriented capitalism. Because the only way to have infinite growth is to keep adding more verticals. Yeah. You can't just stay to one lane. Fun fact, you can just stop growing and be totally fine.

• 36:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Hmm.

• 36:54David Imel?

  Your shareholders will hate it. I get it. I know you're a public company, but I'm like, and I'm, I'm maybe YouTube's biggest fan. But like YouTube has been so rock-solid stable that frankly, I ignore a lot of the extra stuff they add. Like, oh, we're gonna do short form. Oh, we're gonna do whatever they're gonna do next, stories or AI stuff. I'm like mostly ignoring that, because I think the core of what makes YouTube YouTube is so strong, that you don't have to do all the rest of the stuff. Mostly agree, but I just think that investors don't.

• 37:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 37:23David Imel?

  They just want to see more time on app. Stop investing in mega companies then, and invest in small ones, to make them bigger, the ones that need your money.

• 37:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I also think YouTube at least is like, the basis of what we love YouTube about is still seems to be the main feature. Whether searching for those things has changed a lot, but they're adding things on that are what I think of as smaller. Where like Instagram has just, has changed from what it started as. Snapchat has changed from what it started as. Twitter has changed from what they started. They've lost their like soul, where YouTube still feels like long-form is the soul of it. And they're adding all the fun things on the side.

• 38:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Once that starts harming long-form, then I'll be mad. Which viewflation and some of this garbage they've been adding lately might be doing that.

• 38:09David Imel?

  Meta just like evolves its products to fit the moment. Like Facebook, I logged into Facebook recently, I didn't know that people can just follow you on Facebook like a Twitter account. Oh, really?

• 38:20Speaker 05

  Been there for a while.

• 38:21David Imel?

  Yeah, and I haven't been on there for a while. Yeah. But when I was a wee lad, you had to manually friend each other. Yes. And no one could just look at your stuff. And now people can just follow anything that, I mean, I don't, I haven't posted on there since 2013. But like, I made a, I made a Facebook Marketplace listing the other day, and like, people can publicly see that, just that, that follow me. Oh. That's, I don't like that.

• 38:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Facebook Marketplace might be the best social media app out there, but

• 38:47David Imel?

  Well, that's why they won't make it an internet app. It's not an app. It's not a separate app, because it's the only way that they have monthly active users on Facebook.

• 38:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Have you ever watched reels on Facebook, the app?

• 38:58David Imel?

  Uh, yeah, yeah. It's also slightly confusing, because it's like mixed in, because there's Facebook videos separately. But there's also reels which get posted to Facebook.

• 39:07Andrew Manganelli?

  But like the reels tab, so like you start scrolling like it's, it is ones on Facebook, but like reels, shorts feed.

• 39:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 39:15Andrew Manganelli?

  There is a pop-up banner ad on every single one that takes up a third of the screen. And I've had mid-roll ads in short-form content. I use it for 10 minutes. The amount of ads are insufferable. It's crazy.

• 39:32David Imel?

  But yeah, I mean, all Meta's products are just, they, they just morph into whatever is popular at the moment. Like they added stories when Snapchat was popular, they added video when YouTube was popular. They now have, you know, now Instagram is trying to be you, like other things. Yeah, it's just, it just morphs into whatever the moment requires.

• 39:52Andrew Manganelli?

  I feel like Meta hasn't had an original thought in

• 39:54David Imel?

  No, dude.

• 39:55Andrew Manganelli?

  A decade.

• 39:56David Imel?

  No.

• 39:56Andrew Manganelli?

  It's kind of pathetic. But just to go back a little bit, if you're a creator and you get offered 50 to $500,000 to post a long form on Meta. Take your bag and then just afterwards, stop posting. Yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't trust until you start seeing people actually making money on Instagram for posting your long-form stuff.

• 40:14David Imel?

  It is surprising to me that these platforms are not just offering the same thing that YouTube offers. Like, why aren't they not doing an AdSense style? 55, 45 split? Yeah, just a permanent thing.

• 40:24Speaker 05

  I think this could be an opportunity, be

• 40:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Because like, I love YouTube.

• 40:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Andrew Manganelli?

  We're, we're on it, but like, we need more Youtubes. There's only one YouTube.

• 40:31David Imel?

  That's true. There need, there does need to be competition because, you know, the forty-five, fifty-five split is like, great. And it's like the best for the industry, but if Meta offered like sixty, forty.

• 40:41Andrew Manganelli?

  And it's crazy that we have to turn to

• 40:43David Imel?

  Wasn't that the

• 40:43Andrew Manganelli?

  good guy Meta, but like,

• 40:44David Imel?

  Wasn't that the, um, the argument for Twitter a couple of months ago where they were like, oh yeah, we're gonna offer like a better, like a sixty, forty. I don't know what it was. And then all of us here were like, well, would you rather have fifty-five percent of your YouTube views? Or sixty percent of like no views on Twitter?

• 41:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, we all knew Twitter was lying, so.

• 41:02David Imel?

  So like, you don't expect videos on Twitter. People don't watch a ton of videos on Twitter that are monetizable. So doesn't really shift it, even though you do sixty, forty, it doesn't actually push the, the bar. Yeah. I mean, I think something we've thought about a lot is like, we don't want to put our content on, you know, people ask us to put our, put waveform on Apple podcasts and stuff. And we think a lot about, well, YouTube is our home. They asked me to put MKBHD videos on Twitter or X all the time. Right. And I'm like, okay, I, I have an audience on X. What they're thinking is it makes sense because we'll, we'll get some audience for it there and we'll be paid for it. But what I'm thinking is YouTube is still the best place for all of it. So I'll just talk to you guys and point at the YouTube video and then you'll go watch it on YouTube.

• 41:47Andrew Manganelli?

  And they'll suppress that link?

• 41:49David Imel?

  The question becomes like, how much audience are you actually losing by posting in a new place? You know what I mean? Because we, you know, we often post the waveform, we post links to waveform on Twitter and that's like point zero, zero, zero, zero, one percent of our traffic. Yeah. So ultimately like, maybe we're not even losing that much traffic. And I have seen a number of creators like Cleo Abram is posting her full videos on Twitter now. The argument would be that there are some new, unique, like net positive number of people you can reach by posting the whole thing somewhere else. And that overrides the amount of people you're losing on YouTube. Yeah. So the people who would be on like, let's say Twitter, for example, like, let's say there's a thousand people who follow you on Twitter and you post it on Twitter.

• 42:29David Imel?

  Ten of those people click the link and go watch it on YouTube. But if you just post the whole thing on Twitter, maybe forty people watch it. And the ten that were gonna go watch on YouTube, don't. Right. But now you have forty people on Twitter. Yeah. So you could consider that a net, let's just more people total. And especially if you were being paid the same amount on both platforms. Yeah. Right now, it's like, you're not. So maybe those ten people are worth more than the forty people that you would get on Twitter. Yeah. But yeah.

• 42:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I rant about something really fast?

• 42:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 42:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Based on this Twitter.

• 42:57David Imel?

  That's what a podcast is, my guy.

• 42:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. Well, Twitter people lately, especially last week, love to clip out the clip of Marquez saying he switched from iPhone Duo to iPhone X Pro.

• 43:07David Imel?

  There's clippers.

• 43:08Andrew Manganelli?

  The people that are clipping that with zero sourcing at all, that I know are people who watch waveform, like,

• 43:14David Imel?

  Yeah, I know they're watching it right now. I want to say to those people who watch this, they're, they're watching this podcast and they're like, which section of the podcast am I gonna slice out? And put on Twitter with zero attribution with some spicy reductive headline? That kind of removes the context of what of the rest of we are talking about. That's just kind of a, a behavior. That's kind of like a leech behavior that's on every social media. Like there is streamers, for example, people watch streamers. When there's a viral moment inside of a streamer, inside of a live stream on Twitch or something, they chop it out and they put it on YouTube. And they have a whole channel where they monetize their own action, which is chopping it out. That's like a behavior. Don't do that. I'm not, I'm not shocked that that happens everywhere. It's just like the thing that you do when you see something that's gonna get clicks.

• 43:59David Imel?

  You just make your own clicks out of it. Um, but it would, it would be nice if they were to attribute or to link the full source of where they got that. They almost never do. Yeah. They very, very rarely ever do. It would be nice if there was like a universal content ID that would just always trace to where the origin of the Cross-platform? Yeah. That'd be nice. Cause they're, they're clipping from Twitch and putting it on YouTube. They're clipping from YouTube and putting it on Twitter. Yeah. It'd be nice if it was like the whole. It would be nice if you had like a protocol. Oh gosh. That it doesn't matter.

• 44:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Now we know Adam's back.

• 44:35David Imel?

  You could just, it would just work on every platform at the same time. Let him cook. And then it would trace back to the origin because all of these platforms can communicate with each other.

• 44:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Where's that XKCD when you need it? I'm just saying, the Dixerto, is that, that's how you pronounce that?

• 44:49David Imel?

  That's one of them.

• 44:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Right? They're the worst and I expect it from them because everyone who works there is a pathetic fool. Like they don't. They just post a, they just post a picture with a really terrible headline. And then their source is a link to their article, which just talks about our content.

• 45:05David Imel?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. They're just spinning you in their clicks farm until they eventually, all right, I guess I have to give you back to YouTube.

• 45:11Andrew Manganelli?

  That's the lamest job in the world. The other people I'm talking about are people on Twitter who clipped it out, no source, that I know are just in the tech space and listen to waveform. And that's where I'm a little more upset about this. And also, writing source WVFRM in just text with no link doesn't count.

• 45:28David Imel?

  It's the easiest, least useful way to do it.

• 45:31Andrew Manganelli?

  It's really sleazy.

• 45:32David Imel?

  Yeah. A link would be nice. A tag would be even better than no link.

• 45:36Andrew Manganelli?

  A tag would be great. I know links they don't do because it's gonna get suppressed, but it's like, are you only posting all of our content? Because you want more engagement on Twitter? I mean, I know the answer is yes, but like, at least tag us.

• 45:48David Imel?

  Yeah. A link would be great. And that's why I downloaded the new Ocarina of Time remake. Um, I actually

• 45:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Thank you for getting us out of this.

• 45:58David Imel?

  I didn't, but it is getting really good reviews and I might. So we'll see.

• 46:01Speaker 05

  But you know what else has links in it?

• 46:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Google search.

• 46:04David Imel?

  Chain fences.

• 46:04Speaker 05

  Not Google search, because, no, because my school disabled AI and also I have a child.

• 46:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Thank you.

• 46:11David Imel?

  That one picture I took through a fence with links.

• 46:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 46:15David Imel?

  Chain of fence.

• 46:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 05

  A golf course has links, right?

• 46:18Andrew Manganelli?

  No, that was a great

• 46:19David Imel?

  A golf course is a link.

• 46:21Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 46:21David Imel?

  What do you mean?

• 46:22Speaker 05

  It's one link.

• 46:22David Imel?

  What is that?

• 46:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh yeah. What is a link?

• 46:24Speaker 05

  No, a link is like a big cat.

• 46:26David Imel?

  Uh, it's a style of golf course. That's a link.

• 46:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 46:28David Imel?

  Links golf is a style of golf course.

• 46:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Interesting.

• 46:31David Imel?

  What is that? What kind of style?

• 46:32Speaker 05

  Also, while we're talking about links,

• 46:33David Imel?

  Separated.

• 46:34Speaker 05

  Shout out Philadelphia Eagles. Their, their stadium's called The Link.

• 46:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, haven't they not won a game this season?

• 46:40Speaker 05

  Uh, I think they won one.

• 46:43David Imel?

  Also shout out to the Navigator and the MKX and the

• 46:48Speaker 05

  They got links on them.

• 46:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 46:50David Imel?

  No, those are, those are, uh, Lincolns. Thank you. Oh my God. I'm glad you got it. Lincoln Tunnel. And that

• 46:57Andrew Manganelli?

  So Greatest segue ever. Yeah.

• 47:00David Imel?

  Talk to me about this Google headline. Okay.

• 47:01Andrew Manganelli?

  So in August, Google turned on AI features as a default option inside of its classroom app for K to twelve schools. Which finally allowed, well, I guess not finally, but default allowed students to access Gemini. Schools are notoriously in the last few years, like having a really hard time trying to figure out what the hell to do with AI and their students because of a thousand different things. A lot of it has to do with cheating and not actually learning anything. So obviously this made a bunch of school districts pretty upset. Because now all this AI stuff is just defaulted on. We've talked a million times about how Chromebooks are like the number one computer in schools.

• 47:38Andrew Manganelli?

  And most K through eight, K through twelve schools are using Chromebooks in multiple classrooms at a time. Um, so they got pretty mad. Asked Google to turn off AI features in Google Classroom. And Google just announced that they are going to give people next year the ability to turn off artificial intelligence tools inside their student software. Unless the school admins choose to make the tools available. So it sounds like they got a response. Except that, Google then also stated that schools that choose to restrict AI access entirely in the software will lose Google's search on those computers.

• 48:12David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Which feels

• 48:14David Imel?

  How do you lose Google?

• 48:15Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what I am also wondering. That's a question I have.

• 48:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Because Google search is a website.

• 48:20David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 48:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Versus, but I believe it has to do with, um, because all these students are logged in with Google accounts, Google school accounts on the Chromebooks inside and through the admin process of controlling all of those Google school accounts. I guess somehow they can, uh,

• 48:38David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 48:39Andrew Manganelli?

  diminish where the search result.

• 48:41David Imel?

  From the New York Times article, there's a quote from Chris Phillips, the Vice President for Education at Google. And he says, "Search and AI are deeply integrated. If a school has banned AI, they will not have access to search and they'll see a message from their school that indicates it's not available." And part of me feels like this is like a little bit of a malicious compliance thing where Sounds like textbook malicious compliance. Because New York, New York just, just passed a law that bans AI in schools from a certain age group. And so I feel like Google is coming in and being like, well, all right, then don't use Google. But the question then becomes, are schools just gonna like use DuckDuckGo?

• 49:22David Imel?

  Maybe they can't use, maybe like, can you even use a Chromebook if you can't use Google search? That's the other question.

• 49:27Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, you can use Chrome, so you could go to Chrome and then go to DuckDuckGo or Yahoo or

• 49:31David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Bing. Sorry, kids. Uh, welcome to Bing. But it is a little weird because they said, turn off AI entirely.

• 49:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:39Andrew Manganelli?

  What levels of this is turning off AI? I mean, Google seems pretty specific on that, like, Google search relies on AI. We've, it's Elsa's favorite feature of Google search. Um, there's lots that has to do there, but it sounds like if they're turning off AI as an entirety and all of these other different, uh, I've never used Google Classroom. I'm not a teacher.

• 50:01David Imel?

  Yeah, me neither.

• 50:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I would love to know more from them about like the struggles they're finding with this. But if you just turn off some of the features, can you still have Google Search? It also seems like Google is specifically trying to give educators two options for search, which is one that has AI overviews and AI chat and another one that they have a feature called guided learning, which is supposed to be able to use AI to search things, except that it specifically is not going to just end result an answer. It's going to be a step by step process on how to get to that answer.

• 50:33David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 50:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Which in theory sounds great, but there's also a consumer version of guided learning out already and lots of people have tried it and can, I think they've, one person even found ways to make it essentially write an entire essay for somebody. So like, clearly that's not working that good and cheating is still plenty on the table. So we'll see how the Google student version of Gemini with guided learning is specifically, but.

• 50:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 50:56Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree with David. This feels like a, cool. If you don't want my AI, you don't get any of me.

• 51:02David Imel?

  Yeah. Which is annoying because the whole like guided learning thing is great in concepts, but that's, that's making schools give a lot of power over to Google over how students learn, right? Like they have this pilot program. They're like, oh, we're going to help you learn through these tools on whatever. But then that's basically making the schools be like, yeah, Google is the one that's deciding how we teach kids. And so the fact that they're cutting it off at the head and just not letting you use anything Google related is, is definitely malicious compliance.

• 51:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 51:33David Imel?

  So.

• 51:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm really interested on, I mean, in terms of teachers, we all grew up with the, don't use Wikipedia, don't use this. Like it doesn't matter to the teachers if they can use search or not. It's because they're not the ones who have to be affected by it. So I wouldn't be surprised if they're like, okay, cool. Just don't use Google Search. Have fun on Bing or DuckDuckGo or.

• 51:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Whatever. What was that resource program we all were supposed to use that was impossible? Instead of Wikipedia?

• 52:00David Imel?

  Resource program?

• 52:01Andrew Manganelli?

  I remember we were supposed to learn some very specific.

• 52:04Speaker 05

  Oh, oh, oh, Grokapi.

• 52:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, yeah, that's it.

• 52:07David Imel?

  You know what I did? I went to Wikipedia and then I just went to the cited links. And then I used. That was our default behavior. Like, oh, you can't use Wikipedia as a source. All right, fine. Use Wikipedia as a source. That was my malicious compliance.

• 52:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. So funny because they're like, no, you have to properly source things. It's like, so what the website you're telling me not to use does?

• 52:27David Imel?

  Sources?

• 52:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 52:28David Imel?

  I guess it's almost like Wikipedia is an aggregate that is probably your next best thing, even though it's not a primary source, but they were trying to teach us. Now I'm like going into teacher defense mode. They're like trying to teach us to like drill down to the source of who actually said it. Wikipedia is sourcing someone else. I think we were doing it right when we sourced Wikipedia sources. Yeah. That's where you're getting information.

• 52:52Andrew Manganelli?

  It did work well. The reason they didn't want it is because like Wikipedia can be edited, which is like the big boogeyman of Wikipedia. Just like, oh, your kid's candy is gonna have pot in it. Yeah. Or like a razor blade. It's like the big scary monster that rarely ever happens kind of thing.

• 53:07David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:08Andrew Manganelli?

  But yeah, this just seems kind of wild and I'm super wondering if it's going to backfire on Google at all.

• 53:14David Imel?

  I, we, Ellis and I were talking about this in the car today on the ride in and I have a feeling that Google's going to issue a statement about this within like the next day or two and basically say, that's not what we meant.

• 53:25Andrew Manganelli?

  I wouldn't be surprised.

• 53:26David Imel?

  Gonna say, of course they can still use Google Search. We meant this, even though they did give a direct quote that says that they can't do it to the New York Times.

• 53:34Andrew Manganelli?

  And it'll definitely happen on a Thursday, tomorrow.

• 53:37David Imel?

  Yeah, well, you can just edit it into the edit, I guess.

• 53:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. Do we think Bing and Yahoo and DuckDuckGo are like?

• 53:43David Imel?

  Not Bing.

• 53:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Not Bing.

• 53:44David Imel?

  Maybe DuckDuckGo. Bing Books?

• 53:46Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know. I think DuckDuckGo is an us thing. I don't think there's a lot of teachers out there who are like, oh, use DuckDuckGo instead. I think they're going to be like, what's a default?

• 53:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, there is no other default, but.

• 53:55David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:56Andrew Manganelli?

  What's the next best thing?

• 53:58David Imel?

  Next best Bing?

• 54:00Andrew Manganelli?

  You just gave them their quote, their motto for.

• 54:04David Imel?

  Remember when we had that one week where we thought Bing could be the next Google?

• 54:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Nope.

• 54:08David Imel?

  Well, we didn't think that, but Microsoft. The week that Microsoft thought that. Yeah. The week that Bing was like, I think, I think, I think I did it. I think I have it. And yeah, and Satya D. Nadella said they're going to make a Google dance. Yeah.

• 54:21Andrew Manganelli?

  In his defense, I think he kind of did.

• 54:23David Imel?

  That quote went hard and they actually fully just made the AI search results like fully a thing. Well, it's funny because at the time, OpenAI kind of was Microsoft and now they're very separate. But this brings up another story that I just want to slide in here. OpenAI released statistics this morning that say that their search volume through ChatGPT is 20% of Google's total search volume.

• 54:47Speaker 05

  I just want to make sure I understand because I was still a little confused from our conversation this morning. Like, do you mean 20% of all, just like general queries are on ChatGPT or 20% of Google's traffic is coming from a ChatGPT agent?

• 55:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, I didn't read it. The way David just said it, I just thought it meant like, if you took the total number of Google searches.

• 55:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:08Andrew Manganelli?

  And then the total number of ChatGPT searches, it's around 20% of what a Google.

• 55:13David Imel?

  Total queries. Total queries. Total queries. Like somebody types something in the box and hits enter. It's a fifth of the times people type into the box in Google and hit enter.

• 55:20Speaker 05

  That's why less than I would have thought.

• 55:22David Imel?

  A fifth?

• 55:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:23David Imel?

  Of Google's?

• 55:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:25David Imel?

  Google, I mean, that is a lot. Google is the largest, it's still the biggest thing.

• 55:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Do you know what counts as a query in Google? Typing Google in the bar without dot com and then it Googles Google. That's, that's how easy it is to query Google.

• 55:37David Imel?

  Also quarter over quarter, Google's search volume has still been going up. It's, it hasn't been going down. Yeah, Google's huge. So that means overall queries in general are just accelerating like crazy. But here's a direct quote. Uh, this is from nine to five Google. Speaking at an OpenAI press event chat yesterday, ChatGPT Consumer Product Lead Adam Fry confirmed that search volume in ChatGPT is roughly one fifth or 20% of the volume of queries of Google. Which is, it's crazy. I mean, like it's Google. That's the closest thing we've ever had. Yeah. You know, to a competitor.

• 56:09Andrew Manganelli?

  This is like when we're talking about like, pixel market share is at 8%. That's so sick. It's really getting up there. It's just like.

• 56:16David Imel?

  Well, yeah.

• 56:17Andrew Manganelli?

  At a certain point when one thing is the dominant feature.

• 56:19David Imel?

  Right.

• 56:19Andrew Manganelli?

  You're pretty, you're cheering other things.

• 56:21David Imel?

  It's like a big deal.

• 56:22Andrew Manganelli?

  For scam Altman.

• 56:23David Imel?

  I mean, and here's another, like now is OpenAI not advocating for this to happen, but this is, this is OpenAI's opportunity to be like, oh, schools, Google doesn't want to help you learn. Google is not allowed, gonna allow you to do this. We'll give you free ChatGPT accounts for education.

• 56:39Andrew Manganelli?

  David, what are you doing?

• 56:40David Imel?

  Instead.

• 56:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Don't give them any ideas.

• 56:41David Imel?

  I'm just saying this is what they probably will do. Um, and it's an open opportunity.

• 56:46Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't think Sam would help out schools because there are too many school computers sitting there with RAM in it. That's not being used at full capacity and it's pathetic that anybody gets RAM except for data servers.

• 56:57David Imel?

  Well, Sam Altman addresses RAM comments. People should put as much RAM as they want in their computers.

• 57:02Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what I would do if I was getting enormous levels of backlash about something stupid I said.

• 57:06David Imel?

  Yeah, that's okay.

• 57:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 57:09David Imel?

  Do you know that famous drill tweet? Do you know drill, the drill account on Twitter?

• 57:14Speaker 05

  Of course we know drill.

• 57:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I have no idea what you're talking about.

• 57:16David Imel?

  It's a meme account. Yeah. Well, there's this famous tweet where it's like, this is your lawyer. I am encouraging you to keep posting this [BLEEP]. And, uh, people have just like put Sam in front of it. So every time Sam Altman says something stupid like that, people just post that photo. It's like, Sam, this is your lawyer. I'm encouraging you to keep posting this [BLEEP]. Anyway, we got to move on to trivia. This is the most chaotic episode because Apple is not guiding us.

• 57:41Andrew Manganelli?

  I think the rest of the episodes of the year are going to be kind of like this. We, we're probably pretty close to the end of product launches.

• 57:46David Imel?

  We're like slowing down. Thank God.

• 57:50Speaker 05

  Guys, I opened Chrome for the first time in quite a while.

• 57:53David Imel?

  Uh oh.

• 57:54Speaker 05

  I went to Google.com and I want you to tell me how many buttons there are on the Google homepage that take me to Gemini.

• 58:03David Imel?

  Is it closest that going over?

• 58:05Speaker 05

  I'll do Delta.

• 58:06David Imel?

  So like one button click and you're in Gemini?

• 58:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 58:10David Imel?

  Some form of Gemini.

• 58:12Speaker 05

  Yes, some form of Gemini.

• 58:13Andrew Manganelli?

  The fact that I have to click at all means they're not doing a very good job of getting me into Gemini. They could do better.

• 58:19David Imel?

  Okay. That is a good, yeah, it's a good question. We'll think about that. Answers will be at the end, like usual with trivia. We'll be right back.

• 58:34David Imel?

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• 59:17David Imel?

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• 59:39David Imel?

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• 1:00:39David Imel?

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• 1:01:21David Imel?

  Go to base44.com/wave for 30% off the builder plan for your first year. That's base44.com/wave for 30% off your first year. Thanks to Base44 for sponsoring this episode. All right, welcome back. We might as well talk a little bit about some of the new stuff that came out in the past week and a half, which is this MacBook Pro with Touch Pro-led XDR, et cetera, et cetera. And iPad Mini also came out. Which should we do first?

• 1:01:50David Imel?

  I vote iPad Mini. Yeah, I vote iPad Mini. Because we're going to talk about the MacBook for longer. You've been teasing it this whole episode, so people can wait a little longer. All right, iPad Mini. Here we go. iPad Mini, I did a video about it. It is incredibly Apple. This is what I said last week. It is a price-laddered to all hell. The whole thing is 60 Hz, which is already part of this massive price ladder, because the iPad Air is also 60 Hz. And if you give the iPad Mini 120 Hz, then people will upgrade in the wrong direction on the price ladder to get higher refresh rate. So iPad Air will get 120 Hz before iPad Mini. It's just part of how the ladder works. Yeah. But there's also this A20 Pro chip in there, and it's this beautiful, super-thin, awesome new piece of hardware.

• 1:02:31David Imel?

  And it's just impossibly thin, awesome thing to hold and watch videos on and read on. Then they do this thing where it's 128 gigs of base storage, and it's $700. And that's kind of a bummer. And they also bin you down half the neural engine and one CPU core. So if you want the whole thing, you gotta get the half-terabyte one, which is like $900. Then you get the extra $100 for the nano-texturing. You're just, it's expensive. It's a really nice portable tablet, and it's really expensive.

• 1:02:59Andrew Manganelli?

  I feel like it's not a great launch when you say, "Hey, what do you think of the iPad Mini?" And you go in a five-minute rant about price-laddering and haven't mentioned really anything about the actual.

• 1:03:08David Imel?

  I'll be honest, it's a really nice. This is what I said in the first half of the video. It's a really nice upgrade. Like, it's a great tablet. I would love it so much more if it was 120 Hz. But it's a nice OLED. It's what people want to read on on the go.

• 1:03:21Andrew Manganelli?

  I feel like it needed to be 120 Hz, or it needed to be $500 like it used to be. Both of those things, a $200 price increase, and not getting like the most obvious upgrade to it possible.

• 1:03:34David Imel?

  They did all the other great things. They redesigned it. That is awesome. They gave it, the A20 Pro, the most powerful mobile chip they have underneath the M-chips. That's awesome. Yeah. They gave it an OLED. That's awesome. Why kneecap it and give it 60 Hz? And there's like, obviously, we talked about the reasons with the ladder. And there is an Apple quote for, I think somebody directly asked why it's still 60 Hz. And they go, "No, no, no, it's not about the refresh rate. It's about the pixel response time of an OLED." And then they go into, obviously, there being less blur and a faster pixel response time. And that's all true. But I use the tablet, and to my eye, it is so obviously 60 Hz that it would have just been totally fine if they just sent it at 120. It would have been better.

• 1:04:18David Imel?

  Everyone knows it would have been better. So it's very Apple wave.

• 1:04:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Didn't they have a response like that for a while for the base iPhone not getting it? And then they gave it to the base iPhone?

• 1:04:26David Imel?

  Hmm, did they? I don't know if they had such a direct.

• 1:04:28Andrew Manganelli?

  It's not about that. It's about the like, touch response and that, what was, the frequency of the response to it was like so high that it's so good. You don't need a higher refresh rate.

• 1:04:38David Imel?

  I guess it was just so clear with this one, because it's a brand-new display that's an OLED. And it's like, well, this not only could have, but should have been 120 Hz. So they kind of had to answer. And so this was like their way of answering. Yeah. Do you guys remember when SpongeBob got smooth?

• 1:04:55David Imel?

  Yeah. That's what this iPad Mini reminds me of. It is pretty clean. It's pretty smooth. Yeah, no speaker grills anywhere. The speakers are actually great. Really? There's no speaker grills. They face you from inside the tablet, and there's these little slots on the side. And if you cover them, they still face you and boom through the display. So they are always like stereo and front-facing, which is better than from before. They were like facing out the sides through the grills. So that gives you the IP67 water resistance, which is nice. It's the only iPad ever with water resistance officially, anyway. Oh, really? Yeah. So that's interesting. But yeah, it is also no-speaker grills. And I said in the video, I wouldn't be surprised if they did this in an upcoming iPhone. I can't like be sure of like when they'll do this,

• 1:05:41David Imel?

  but no-speaker grills, front-facing through the display speakers sounds like a nice thing to keep going with.

• 1:05:47Andrew Manganelli?

  It's funny, I feel like the argument last week that was really good was, "Why do they need to do no-speaker grills when we're IP-rating phones already?"

• 1:05:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:57Andrew Manganelli?

  So why go that route with a phone, I guess?

• 1:05:59David Imel?

  I think it might have been a little bit of misdirection on Apple's part. I think the upgrade to the speakers is that they are now front-facing and stereo. Like, obviously, they were stereo before, but they are now front-facing no matter what for the user. And they'll play through these little slots or from behind the displays. That also conveniently means they can get rid of the speaker holes. And I think that they would have been able to do IP67 anyway without that, but they get to conveniently point to it also being IP67.

• 1:06:27Speaker 05

  Wait, do we have one here right now?

• 1:06:28David Imel?

  I do. Not in this room, but I can go get one if you want.

• 1:06:31Speaker 05

  Can I go? I want to hear this thing.

• 1:06:33David Imel?

  I would like to see it. Uh, yeah. I don't think I've wiped it yet. So I think it's on my desk right now.

• 1:06:38Speaker 05

  All right, I'll be right back.

• 1:06:39David Imel?

  Bring it in. I want to, yeah, we should do like a first impressions touching. Yeah. You should play some high-volume music so you can feel it vibrating in your hands, because that is a little side effect of the, the no-speaker grills thing. Interesting. But anyway, yeah, expensive mini iPad, nice new features. Missing one, very important one to me, anyway. Frustrating because of Apple ladder. That's the summary of iPad Mini. Okay. Then there's the MacBook Pro. Okay. By the time you see this, the embargo's up and we'll be able to say more about it. I have to start a lot of my testing today and benchmarking. But essentially, all this is, is it's the same M5 Pro or M5 Max MacBook Pros we already had, 14-inch or 16-inch,

• 1:07:22David Imel?

  but with an OLED touchscreen and a slight thermal redesign, so that it is thinner and lighter. I care more about the thinner and lighter part, because the displays on the mini LED MacBook Pros are already really good. Yeah. Obviously, OLED is going to have its advantages with less blooming, higher contrast, even slightly higher brightness. Also, it glows on the back. I've already mentioned this, but the Apple logo is brighter based on your screen brightness.

• 1:07:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Can you go all the way down really fast?

• 1:07:54David Imel?

  Yeah, so this is, when you turn it all the way off, it does an impressive job of looking just like the old reflective.

• 1:08:01Andrew Manganelli?

  When it's all the way off, but do one brightness.

• 1:08:03David Imel?

  One brightness level up, it looks the worst.

• 1:08:05Andrew Manganelli?

  That looks almost like the like glow-in-the-dark plastic when it's

• 1:08:09David Imel?

  Looks like the cheap.

• 1:08:09Andrew Manganelli?

  light outside, like it's that like kind of yellowy-green color. That looks terrible.

• 1:08:13David Imel?

  That's its worst angle.

• 1:08:15Andrew Manganelli?

  That's so impressive.

• 1:08:15David Imel?

  You can also just turn it off.

• 1:08:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:17David Imel?

  I wonder how they did it. In the old MacBook Pros, they had backlights, so they could just cut a hole in the back and like use the backlight to light this logo. OLEDs don't have backlights, so they had to spend some extra effort adding a light on the back facing out the back of the laptop. And I respect that. Yeah. I respect that. Look, the touchscreen experience is fine. I honestly rarely touch the display. I didn't think I would. The hinge is like 10% stiffer. Like, it is, it's still going to wobble a little bit, but MacBook Pro hinges in general are pretty solid. So like, yeah.

• 1:08:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Am I allowed to touch the screen?

• 1:08:53David Imel?

  Yeah, you can scroll around and fingerprint it up. I would never let anyone else typically touch my touchscreen.

• 1:08:58Andrew Manganelli?

  It is really weird that I can do it on the Mac finally.

• 1:09:01David Imel?

  Yeah, see that wobble? That's a lot of wobble.

• 1:09:04Andrew Manganelli?

  It's, yeah. It's not wobble like they all do. They didn't fix anything with that.

• 1:09:08David Imel?

  They didn't erase the wobble, but it's a touchscreen now. There are certain elements of macOS like up here that require two taps, because it's a small touch target. But like swiping down from here is fine. It's, it's a, yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 05

  Sorry, I'm stealing your laptop. I don't want to try this.

• 1:09:25David Imel?

  Here's the way I'm framing this laptop. It's just an option. It's like the MacBook Pro we've already known and the touchscreen and slightly thinner redesign is an option that you can pay more for. And it's basically $400 more per spec. So if you spec out the same exact laptop from not touchscreen or with the touchscreen, you'll pay 400 bucks more for this design with touchscreen. What about, can you get the OLED without the touchscreen? No. Okay. You can turn the touchscreen off in the settings, but if you pay for the OLED, you get it touch because that's how it comes from the factory. And you get the slightly thinner and lighter thing. I mean, the OLED is much more important to me than the touchscreen, so I would pay the $400. I think a lot of people are really into the OLED. Yeah. I want to do some extensive thermal testing to figure out if this new thinner one is actually better thermally than the old one.

• 1:10:10David Imel?

  It'd be cool if it is better because then it's lighter. It would be cool. Thinner. Yeah, it would be cool. It would be lighter, thinner and better thermally. And that would be amazing for editing on the go. Yeah. And that might cause me to want to upgrade. Yeah. But as of right now, I am perfectly, perfectly happy with mine. And a lot of other people who have Apple Silicon Macs from the past couple of years are also perfectly happy with theirs. The displays on the MacBook Pros were already really, really good. Yeah. I mean, yes, it's better with the blooming. Yes, it's better with the contrast. Yes, OLED is better. But like, these displays are already amazing. Yeah. So.

• 1:10:44Speaker 05

  I'm a little annoyed that they didn't fix the hinge issue. I feel like in the back of my head, this whole time that we've been having the rumors for like a touchscreen Mac, I'm like, okay, but you know, it's Apple. They'll probably do something to make it like less, I don't know.

• 1:10:57David Imel?

  Wobbly?

• 1:10:57Speaker 05

  Wobbly. I. It's not.

• 1:11:00David Imel?

  I have to assume.

• 1:11:00Speaker 05

  Super wobbly.

• 1:11:01Andrew Manganelli?

  It might not be a fixable issue. I think the only way to potentially do it is to have like the old Surface where the bottom half of the screen kicks out and you have something that's physically acting against you.

• 1:11:12Speaker 05

  I almost would have preferred that. Like the wobble is what makes me not want to use it at all.

• 1:11:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Would never do that. It would look, it looks too bad.

• 1:11:18Speaker 05

  Well, if you're picturing the Surface one, if it's like an Apple stand.

• 1:11:21David Imel?

  Maybe it can make it better.

• 1:11:22Speaker 05

  Maybe they can charge you a thousand dollars for it.

• 1:11:24David Imel?

  Exactly. I think what's interesting about it is a lot of people have had a lot of really interesting ideas of what they wish they had done to accommodate the touchscreen more. Obviously, Apple pencil support would have been interesting. A lot of people also wanted the hinge to like open more, maybe be able to flip around, do a two in one thing. Like all this other stuff so that would be easier to draw on. Yeah. They didn't do any of that. Yeah. I think it's because this was an afterthought, like the touch thing just happens to come with the hardware and they're like, eh, [BLEEP], we'll turn it on. And we'll like add a couple of like slight enhancements to the menu bar and things so you can actually touch the small touch targets. But it's really just an option. And if they wanted to make it like, like really lean into the touch part, that would be a different direction philosophically.

• 1:12:08David Imel?

  Cause they have iPad already for people who want to do lots of touch things. So I'm not surprised that they didn't do any of that stuff. They're just kind of like, we, we checked a box. You can touch the screen. But if you want a touch first experience, that's still an iPad. Yeah.

• 1:12:22Andrew Manganelli?

  There are a few things in there when I was just trying it that it, I, I agree what you mean very quickly and like how it feels like an afterthought because it does feel like it's just letting you do the couple of things like move a window, double tap the window to kind of make it bigger. But when I was in the document, I tried to like click on a, a piece of text and then I was a little off, so I just scroll over to it. It doesn't scroll. You just keep clicking. It's, it doesn't have that like zoom in like on an iPhone and then scroll between the letters and stuff like that. That's not, maybe that's because it's Google Docs, maybe in like a Mac's thing.

• 1:12:55David Imel?

  Things with text. I jump in Safari and I like try to, let's, let's try to type. I'm like scroll around in here. Yeah, there isn't any sort of special text highlighting. There is no, um, yeah, there's no on-screen keyboard either, obviously. Yeah. It's just a, it's not made for touch.

• 1:13:12Speaker 05

  Are there gestures?

• 1:13:13David Imel?

  Yeah. So any trackpad gesture you could do, check this out.

• 1:13:16Speaker 05

  Okay, that's cool.

• 1:13:18David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:13:18Andrew Manganelli?

  It didn't work.

• 1:13:19David Imel?

  Didn't work. Sorry. Let me add some spaces. It's way more dramatic when it works. All right. Is that not sick?

• 1:13:25Speaker 05

  All right. Yeah, that's kind of cool. You're just like swiping between different desktops.

• 1:13:28Andrew Manganelli?

  You're just like a cat knocking things off.

• 1:13:30David Imel?

  I'm just all at things across. I mean, I can do. You can do it on the trackpad already. Yeah. But then you can do it up here. Yeah.

• 1:13:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it different than?

• 1:13:40David Imel?

  I turned off natural scrolling, so it's. This just highlights to me that it's an option. Yeah. The other nice thing that they did add was they rounded the bottom of the screen and they got rid of this like metal bar that was on the previous MacBooks. Yeah, slight thermal redesign. So it definitely looks a lot sleeker. Cause the top of the screen is already rounded, but now they rounded the bottom. So now it's kind of more uniform. Yeah. And the bezels are like a tiny bit, tiny bit.

• 1:14:05Speaker 05

  Am I the only one that thinks turn, like making it touchscreen is kind of a big deal? Like for them to treat it like an option like this seems weird to me.

• 1:14:12David Imel?

  It is weird.

• 1:14:12Speaker 05

  Like it's rubbing me the wrong way.

• 1:14:13David Imel?

  It's for sure weird. I think in the purest way where people really want Apple to have like an opinion about how computers should work, it feels like a big deal because this was not supposed to happen. Right. But in this new world of Turnus is Apple just kind of trying things and adding to the menu of what Apple offers. Yeah. I think they're less opinionated about like these very specific things and they're just kind of like, yeah, we'll offer a touchscreen. Yeah. And it's not as big of a deal anymore.

• 1:14:40Speaker 05

  Okay, random follow-up. Does Turnus get credit for this? Or is this a Tim Cook thing?

• 1:14:43David Imel?

  I think he gets partial credit. I think there were a lot of things because Turnus was head of hardware before. And obviously Tim Cook still, still steered the ship, but from what I hear and from lots of reporting, he's not in the design studio like chefing up products. Like he's just kind of green lighting things and steering the ship. And I think Turnus should get at least partial credit for a lot of the new stuff happening. And he gets to be on stage now as the CEO unveiling some of the stuff that's been in the works for a while. Even though Tim Cook was CEO.

• 1:15:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Also known he's going to be CEO for a while.

• 1:15:12David Imel?

  I think.

• 1:15:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Way before we learned.

• 1:15:14David Imel?

  If you read a lot of the Mark Gurman reporting, it's like, this was perfectly orchestrated like as a, as, as a very intentional signal. Like we will transfer from Turnus or from Tim Cook to Turnus right at iPhone Duo at the beginning of a wave of new products. That like symbolizes all this new Apple stuff. Interesting. So if you really want to read into that, it's like, yeah, this, Turnus gets credit for this intention. Yeah. Symbolically, that makes a lot of sense whether or not Apple like planned that. I don't know. Yeah. So. So, yeah, I think shareholders want to see like a smooth transfer, you know, like this is a big stock, big deal for them, whatever. They want to see things go smoothly. So that you see the new guy doing stuff, you feel good about it. Do you think that this, that the changes in this new MacBook are going to push people towards buying them and upgrading their M1s?

• 1:16:00David Imel?

  I actually think that was in Apple's head. They were like, wow, M1 and M2 were so damn good. Yeah. That we really need to actively give people a reason to upgrade and it can't just be more performance because those are so performant. Yeah. So I think that is one of the things that they're dangling is like, okay, yeah, OLED, that might be a reason. Touchscreen, that might be a reason. They're just giving people things. Was there a report also that I think the entire lineup is eventually going to be OLED touchscreens or touchscreens in some capacity? I think they're starting at the top and like bringing it through the whole lineup eventually. That might.

• 1:16:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I think that would make the most sense because we didn't see a new name. The fact that this is still MacBook Pro.

• 1:16:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Andrew Manganelli?

  With Pro Letter or whatever.

• 1:16:42David Imel?

  It's not like MacBook Ultra or something.

• 1:16:43Andrew Manganelli?

  I think all of them would eventually do it.

• 1:16:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Andrew Manganelli?

  That would make sense.

• 1:16:46David Imel?

  So I, I think it's designed to be that. Me personally, I, it's, the old ones are still so good.

• 1:16:53Andrew Manganelli?

  When you say whole lineup though, do you mean all laptops or only MacBook Pro?

• 1:16:56David Imel?

  All MacBook Pros.

• 1:16:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay. Cause it's Pro LED. It can't go in a, it can't go in there. It's a Pro. It's a Pro feature.

• 1:17:01David Imel?

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, this, this is an incredible tandem OLED. I wouldn't be surprised if they just enable touchscreens in the rest of them, even if they're not OLED. So like mini LED ones get touchscreens, regular LCD ones get touchscreens. They just move it through the lineup. Yeah. But I'm not upgrading for the touchscreen. Yeah. I am barely considering upgrading for the thinner and lighter and OLED, all combined. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what, you have an M4 Max right now? So I have a, this is, my situation is I am, it's a luxury to have this position, but I am incredibly torn between a 14 inch or 16 inch. That's my only dilemma. I know I want to use a MacBook Pro. I know I want to edit on a MacBook Pro, so it'll be a high-end machine. I just can't decide between 14 and 16.

• 1:17:46Speaker 05

  This was your same issue last time.

• 1:17:47David Imel?

  This was my dilemma last time. And if you remember last time, my dilemma with the 16 is like, okay, I go edit. I need the bigger screen. It's wonderful. But God, it's such a pain to carry around this big, heavy 16 inch laptop all the time. Now the new 16 inch is specifically almost a pound lighter. Yeah. And so that's renewed this exact same dilemma where I love the 14. There is no problem with the 14, but when I go edit on the 14, I wish I had the 16. Yeah. So maybe I'm going to become a 16 person again. I just did this a couple of months ago. I mean, you, how long did you use the 14 for? It's, it's an M4 Max, so like a year and a half. I would say you should do the 16 just to like see what's on the other side of the pond.

• 1:18:26David Imel?

  So this is what I did. I, for the past like four months or so, I've been using the 16 inch M5 Max review unit laptop. Oh. And from that, I learned that it's great to have one machine everywhere still. I, it's great to, I use it on my desktop to edit with it. And then I would take it on the go and I edited that. The Apple videos on the go. It was amazing. Yeah. It's just five, it's a heavy laptop. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, this, this weird niche position that I'm in is deciding between the two. And because they made it lighter, I'm like, maybe I can do the 16 again. We'll see.

• 1:18:58Speaker 05

  I don't know if, I feel like they've probably fixed this, but for the first like two, maybe three generations of Apple Silicon, a lot of people were finding in benchmarks that the 14 inch Max series and the 16 inch Pro series had comparable video performance because the Max chips in the smaller chassis would get thermal throttle in.

• 1:19:18David Imel?

  Yeah. Yes. So there is some legitimacy to that, which is why.

• 1:19:22Speaker 05

  It's still a thing though.

• 1:19:23David Imel?

  Well, okay, yeah. I mean, smaller body thermal performance, obviously intuitively will be some limiting factor. But I do think that the, the headroom difference was like at the end of like longer sessions. So in most bursty performance and stuff you're doing, you won't notice, but if you're someone going for the Max, you are probably thinking about doing renders or some bigger projects. Yeah. And I don't think that the difference now thermally between the 14 inch and 16 inch is enough of a reason to get the 16. But it is enough of a reason that you'll choose between the Pro and the Max chip. So if you need the Max, get the Max. Both the 14 and 16 will be great. This is all pending my thermal testing. I have the 16 inch Max and I will be testing it, but yeah, I think as of right now,

• 1:20:09David Imel?

  it's just about the thinner and lighter and OLED. Yeah. Do you think that the light is going to actually sway anybody? On the back? The back light. If you read the comments section on YouTube, it's the only thing. I, I know, but I wonder, I really wonder if those are like legitimate thoughts or if they're just being, if they're just memeing.

• 1:20:25Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't think sway, but I think the people who are trying, are going to be really happy that they have a way to indicate that they have the newest Apple thing. But those people were going to buy the newest Apple thing anyways.

• 1:20:39David Imel?

  People really, I don't know. I've always heard like people are very obsessed with being able to show off that they have the new thing. I've never, ever thought about that.

• 1:20:47Speaker 05

  I think Apple is obsessed with people. People being obsessed with it. I don't think people are obsessed with it.

• 1:20:52David Imel?

  I think, well.

• 1:20:53Andrew Manganelli?

  People want to show off they have the new expensive thing all the time.

• 1:20:56David Imel?

  Yeah, there's some level of memeing every time. When the orange iPhone came out, everyone was like, oh, the orange one, that's the new one. And then when the iPhone 18s, 18 Pros came out, everyone went, oh, the orange one, that's the old one. For Apple, it is free marketing for them.

• 1:21:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, but that's like everyone in our circles, but think about everyone in your life. They just get the new thing when they need the new thing.

• 1:21:17David Imel?

  Yeah, no, but I do, I do think that there is specifically an element of Apple playing with color to make sure that there is a new color so that you know you have the new one. Yeah. And I don't know how much that actually affects sales.

• 1:21:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Like midnight black.

• 1:21:32David Imel?

  Yeah, I paid attention to it for a long time because there's been years where they'll have, and I wish they'd bring back red, but like the orange shows up and that, that whole thing happens. I'm like, I noticed that. I saw oranges everywhere. When you see burgundy, like I, would you normally buy a burgundy phone? No. I would. But if you have, if you want people to know you have the new one. No, I don't, I don't care about that at all, but I love the color. I don't know.

• 1:21:54Speaker 05

  I think it's easy to.

• 1:21:55David Imel?

  Ox blood. Wine red.

• 1:21:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I think flaunting, I mean, it's showing off that you have the new thing that's expensive. It's status symbol. That's not just in tech, that's in everything. And Apple in the US is the easiest way to do.

• 1:22:08David Imel?

  I can cognitively agree that people do that. I just can't understand it from myself. It's in the back of people's heads. I don't think they would ever admit.

• 1:22:16Speaker 05

  I think it's in the front of some people's heads. And I think some people will admit it also.

• 1:22:20David Imel?

  On Twitter, it is in the front of people's heads for sure. That's why it's a meme. But yeah, it is a new MacBook Pro. What do you think of, you're holding that iPad over there?

• 1:22:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. So first I, you, I, I just assumed it would be in mono. So like when you said that this is in stereo, I was like, what? So I'm about to do a stereo test because I really want to hear it.

• 1:22:38David Imel?

  Yeah, should be left, right.

• 1:22:41Speaker 06

  You should be hearing this out of only the left side.

• 1:22:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Speaker 06

  You should be hearing this.

• 1:22:47Speaker 05

  How?

• 1:22:49David Imel?

  Well, so there's two speakers behind the display on the left and two on the right. Yeah. And they're significantly far enough apart that if you only play out of one, it feels like it's there.

• 1:22:57Andrew Manganelli?

  LG did this with a T, was LG or Sony did this with a TV a while ago where it was like quote surround sound.

• 1:23:04David Imel?

  Just through the display.

• 1:23:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Through display vibration or whatever only, like, yeah.

• 1:23:08Speaker 05

  Should we, should we test some music, some royalty free music?

• 1:23:11David Imel?

  Let's play some royalty free. And if you turn it up.

• 1:23:15David Imel?

  You feel it vibrating in your hands?

• 1:23:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:23:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:19Speaker 05

  It sounds like an iPad. It doesn't sound that different.

• 1:23:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I see the frequency charts of this?

• 1:23:22David Imel?

  Marquez, I want to know, have you listened to a lot of music or video?

• 1:23:29David Imel?

  Sorry, well, I'll redo that.

• 1:23:37Andrew Manganelli?

  This sounds like it would be in an Apple commercial. This is like, it's a bunch of zoom ins of people walking down the street with their new iPad.

• 1:23:45Speaker 05

  You guys, you guys want to try?

• 1:23:47David Imel?

  I would like to touch it, but I just want to like touch it. Yeah. What were you asking? You were going to say something. I was going to say about the MacBook, but I can get to that right after this, I guess. Yeah. Oh, what? It, it definitely is noticeably thinner.

• 1:23:57Andrew Manganelli?

  It's smooth SpongeBob.

• 1:23:59Speaker 05

  Dude, it, I can't unsee. It looks like smooth SpongeBob. It's crazy.

• 1:24:04David Imel?

  Oh, the, oh, the nano texture looks nice, but you need the 256 gig. It does get. So there's that. So it's like, what is like. So that's a amount of $900. $900 bucks? Yeah, $900 iPad mini. That nano texture looks amazing.

• 1:24:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, wait, how much is this?

• 1:24:17Speaker 05

  This was, you can only get the 256 gig with the nano texture.

• 1:24:21David Imel?

  You can only get the nano texture.

• 1:24:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Hey, hey, you can get the 512 gig with nano texture also.

• 1:24:24Speaker 05

  But does it, so that means it starts at 128?

• 1:24:27David Imel?

  It starts at 128 and you cannot get nano texture on 128. I don't know why, other than the latter. Like there's no way the display and the storage are connected in any way. So you must pay the $100 to get 256 to unlock the ability to pay another $100 for nano texture.

• 1:24:45Speaker 05

  Just like how search and AI are deeply integrated, memory and glare are also somehow deeply integrated.

• 1:24:52David Imel?

  Can't believe I forgot. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty cool, but also really expensive. Would you pay $900 for a 60 hertz iPad mini? No, well, I, I don't, I still don't really even understand.

• 1:25:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I must be confused because I feel like I see speaker slits.

• 1:25:06David Imel?

  The slots, yeah. So there's like cabinet type openings on the corners.

• 1:25:10Speaker 05

  Speaker slots?

• 1:25:11Andrew Manganelli?

  There's one on both sides.

• 1:25:12David Imel?

  All the way at the very edge next to the metal.

• 1:25:14Andrew Manganelli?

  It just looks like a phone thing on both sides. There's a slit on both sides.

• 1:25:18David Imel?

  But I tested it in the video and I covered it with both my thumbs and you still hear almost like 95% of the audio.

• 1:25:23Speaker 05

  Those might be microphones and not speakers.

• 1:25:26Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, I just expected it to have like literally nothing except for a charging port.

• 1:25:31David Imel?

  Yeah, visually, very much, yeah. Uh, Marquez, I have a question about the MacBook, just going back to the MacBook. Okay. I know we're flying around back and forth. Uh, someone mentioned that they felt that the bass got worse. Because the, the bass improvement made the bass too much and that it made the overall audio quality of the new MacBook's worse. Interesting. So I'm really curious about your opinion on this because that's just one person that said that to me. I have not done back to back. So let me pull up, what I'm going to do right now is pull up an MKB HD video that I know what it sounds like. Because it's quoted as having 50% stronger bass, right? Right. So there are two things they, they talked about with the speakers, which is one, stronger bass and two, uh, better audio in clamshell mode specifically.

• 1:26:16David Imel?

  So if you were to plug it into a monitor and use it closed, but still use the speakers, uh, it should sound better. That's strange, but okay. First generation devices are always the most fun to review. That's booming. And for the past like month, everyone I talked to has been asking me, what do you think of the iPhone Duo? Like, should I get a foldable iPhone? Is that for me? Who is it even really for? You've been testing it for the past week, right?

• 1:26:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Riveting experience.

• 1:27:07David Imel?

  Waiting for that bass to drop.

• 1:27:10David Imel?

  So most new pieces of tech are. I mean, I can hear it in your voice. Your voice sounds basier. I don't know how to edit this. I'll figure it out later. I was gonna say, I think we leave it all in. I think we leave it all in. Uh, audio listeners, we just did a live audio test. Uh, no A B testing, but we just listened to a video that we know how it should sound. What do you think, Ellis? It sounded pretty good.

• 1:27:28Speaker 05

  Pretty cool, man.

• 1:27:29David Imel?

  I don't know if it sounded that much basier than I was expecting it to.

• 1:27:32Speaker 05

  I would A B it against my M1, but the speakers are blown out. So it's gonna.

• 1:27:37David Imel?

  We'll A B test later with my, my mini LED MacBook Pro, but uh, sounds pretty great. Okay. Yeah, okay. I mean, MacBook Pro speakers have sounded good for a long time. So this might be another case of like the mini LED ones also had great speakers and this is slightly better. Yeah. Kind of like the screen. Okay, cool. There's also Dynamic Island. I don't know if you mentioned that. Yeah, right. The small pill Dynamic Island. I do really like that.

• 1:27:56Andrew Manganelli?

  I think that's great.

• 1:27:57David Imel?

  I think that's another, see, this is another purely visual thing. Nothing changed. The sensors are the same. The webcam and the ambient light sensor are up here. No face ID. They just made it look different. So you know it's the new one. It's a lot of different little looks. Thinner, lighter, Dynamic Island, light on the back. Yeah. Curved on the bottom. Yeah. Well played. You mentioned that they changed the, the like, uh, you mentioned that they changed the pads on the bottom to be more inset. Yeah, they're sort of in, inlaid a little bit in the metal. Yeah, whereas this one's not. Yeah. So that's a strange change, but. But they still stick out the bottom and uh, they feel a little less tacky for some reason, but they just sort of prop you off the desk. So cooling works better. Interesting. Okay, cool.

• 1:28:43Speaker 05

  What else props you off the desk and cools you a little bit better?

• 1:28:45David Imel?

  What does? The gobbler from Wawa.

• 1:28:48Speaker 05

  Which we have multiple of on the way, but uh, first it's trivia.

• 1:28:53David Imel?

  Very exciting.

• 1:28:53Speaker 05

  Trivia at an hour and a half ish into this episode after edits some.

• 1:28:58David Imel?

  Don't worry, we'll speed run the last section.

• 1:28:59Speaker 05

  All right. Question number two. We spoke about IGTV earlier, which launched in 2018. Did you know that on desktop, you were allowed to upload a 60 minute video? But how long were you allowed to upload videos on mobile?

• 1:29:14David Imel?

  Are you sure it didn't launch in 2017?

• 1:29:15Speaker 05

  2018.

• 1:29:16David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:29:17Speaker 05

  July 2018 is when it was announced.

• 1:29:18David Imel?

  On mobile, how long of a video were you allowed to upload?

• 1:29:21Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:29:22Andrew Manganelli?

  On IGTV.

• 1:29:22Speaker 05

  On IGTV specifically.

• 1:29:24David Imel?

  Hmm, okay. I guess it's not 60 or what? How long was desktop?

• 1:29:30Speaker 05

  Desktop was 60 minutes.

• 1:29:32David Imel?

  Damn. Wow. I never did that. But they had a different upload time on mobile?

• 1:29:36Speaker 05

  They did and different like requirements and everything, but yeah.

• 1:29:39David Imel?

  That's so dumb. Okay. I don't know.

• 1:29:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Delta. Can we please do Delta?

• 1:29:47Speaker 05

  Ellis, I've been at the game for so long, you tell me. Let's, let's, let's do all Delta today.

• 1:29:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 1:29:52Speaker 05

  Oops, all Delta.

• 1:29:53David Imel?

  Oops, all Delta. Closest Delta Airlines. All right. Well, we'll think about that. Answers at the end. We'll be right back.

• 1:30:07David Imel?

  Support for the show comes from Firefox. Have you ever searched for a product once and then it follows you around online for days? Just know that's the perfect way to spoil a gift for someone you shared a device with. In any case, that's not what going online used to be like. Before, it felt efficient and full of discovery. Today, being tracked or shown AI you didn't ask for can make even the simplest tasks frustrating. While the internet you loved is still here with Firefox. Firefox has kept improving with built-in protection and more control while giving you the speed to get things done. Firefox doesn't know what sites you visit and comes with a free built-in VPN that protects your browsing on public wifi. Firefox has support for AI, but only when you want it. When you feel like you need a break from AI, Firefox gives you the option to turn its AI features on or off. It's also super easy to switch from your current browser.

• 1:30:50David Imel?

  You can just port over any bookmarks, passwords, or history. Come back to Firefox, visit firefox.com to try it yourself.

• 1:30:58David Imel?

  Support for the show comes from Verizon. Verizon knows that the holiday decisions and holiday deals can be complicated. Should I spend the holidays with friends or family? Who do I need to get gifts for? What should I get them? How hard should I go on decorations? There are so many questions to consider. If you want a holiday decision that's not complicated, then switch to Simplicity Plan from Verizon. One plan, one price, just $30 a line per month for you or the whole family. If the holidays are complicated, switching to Verizon and shopping their best deals is simple. For new customers, $30 a line includes auto pay and switch discount. Unlimited data is restricted to on-device smartphone usage, domestic data roaming, and 2GB speeds. Additional taxes, fees, and terms apply.

• 1:31:38Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest-growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as 2 and 1/2 minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

• 1:32:22David Imel?

  All right, welcome back. I promised we would be around the last section because we were absolutely cooking. We've talked a lot, but I do have a fun little random mini story time. We were making the iPad mini review for last week or this week. What year is it?

• 1:32:37David Imel?

  And for the little sponsored bit at the end with D-Brand, we were talking about their new iPad accessories. They have a bunch of cases now and they also have a giant screen protector for the iPad. It's called the Prism. They've kept the same like cool tech where you can slap it on easily.

• 1:32:52David Imel?

  We had this whole thing where I was going to show all the accessories on the mini, but I also have an iPad Pro. And so they were like, yeah, if it doesn't work on the mini, you can also show it on the iPad Pro. So they sent me accessories to the iPad Pro. So this is actually what happens sometimes is we have unreleased devices and D-Brand has accessories that they've built for the unreleased devices, but they're not exactly perfectly sure if it's 100% yet because they don't have the thing. And we have the thing. So they sent us the case and the Prism for the iPad mini and they're like, this should work. But just in case it doesn't, we'll also send you some stuff for your iPad Pro so you can still show it on video. And I was like, that's great. So they sent all that stuff. And so then I go to make the video. I've got all my footage. I'm shooting the bit with the case and the Prism.

• 1:33:35David Imel?

  And I go, ah, of course I want to install the Prism on this iPad mini, but I can't find it. I'm like, where is the Prism for the iPad mini? I go back to the D-Brand package that we got. I see the case for the iPad Pro. I see the Prism for the iPad Pro. I see the case for the iPad mini. I don't see the Prism for the iPad mini. I'm triggered already. I already know.

• 1:33:57Andrew Manganelli?

  This is like 3 o'clock, like the last B-roll stuff you needed for the embargo the next morning.

• 1:34:02David Imel?

  Yeah, I'm like, I just need this one shot. I don't remember where I put it. I started looking around for it. Maybe I put it in top-down because I did the unboxing. I did the case footage and it's not in top-down. Maybe it's, maybe I moved it. I don't know. Maybe I put it somewhere else while I was shooting B-roll. I start walking around, retracing my steps all over the studio for all the places that I've shot B-roll today, which is like 15 places all around the studio. And you don't mention anything to anyone at this point. So it's just you wandering around the studio. At first, at first it is. And then I'm like, has anybody seen the box? Because I just described the box just in case somebody finds it. So now everybody's like on alert a little bit, starting to walk around for it. It's kind of the end of the day and we're like, Marquez needs this shot. How about we all just start looking for it? Everybody starts looking for it and we can't find it anywhere.

• 1:34:44David Imel?

  And I'm like, I haven't really, I did go shoot outside a couple of shots and I did go shoot in the car, but I don't think I brought the box out there. Like, why would I have it with me? I shot on the roof, but I didn't bring it up there.

• 1:34:55Andrew Manganelli?

  And we also were starting to clean the studio up. Like, we were starting to get rid of stuff in the studio. So we, 2 points in that they had big trash bags that we were wandering around the studio, throwing stuff out, lots of garbage, lots of stuff we were finding.

• 1:35:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:09Andrew Manganelli?

  And then that comes into play now. We're like, did it get thrown out?

• 1:35:13David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:13Andrew Manganelli?

  We should check the trash. It turns into like a site-wide manhunt for this Prism protector.

• 1:35:19David Imel?

  I don't know where it ended up, but it's not where we think it is. So let's just start digging through everything.

• 1:35:22Andrew Manganelli?

  There are people in every room and every cabinet. We're looking outside, Marquez is looking at his bag. I think I went through the trash in the trash room outside of ours three times to the point where Adam and I had trash bags laid out on the ground.

• 1:35:36David Imel?

  Dumped out the trash.

• 1:35:37Andrew Manganelli?

  With more trash bags to transfer things over, trying to find this thing. Nowhere, we couldn't find it anywhere.

• 1:35:44David Imel?

  Couldn't find it. I had emptied my trash. I went back through the trash that I emptied out, couldn't find it in there. I was like, damn, I guess, I guess I just have to use the iPad Pro's Prism or something like that. So I go back in my inbox and I just double-checked just to make sure. Because they actually came in two different packages, two different tracking numbers. So I go back, I see that both were delivered. We have both of them. Okay, it's, it got delivered. There's no way it's not here yet. And I thought I had it earlier today. And then I scroll up and there's Slack messages from D-Brand where they're like, yeah, so we're sending the 13-inch Prism, the 13-inch case and the iPad mini case, but no Prism. You can just use the iPad Pro.

• 1:36:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Like, just show it on the iPad Pro because we don't have the Prism for it.

• 1:36:28David Imel?

  Yeah. So just totally. So this whole time, I had like false memories of like, I thought I took it out the box. Like, I put it next to the pile. Like, I could, I remembered moving it to the side for later. And yeah, none of those memories are real. That's the kind of month it's been.

• 1:36:42Andrew Manganelli?

  The way you told us is it's been an hour at this point of everybody in the whole studio looking. And you go, you sit down and he goes, oh, guys. We're like, what? And he's like, there's the, he's like, there's the iPad Pro case, there's the iPad Pro Prism, and there's the iPad mini case. And then you turn around and go, and that's where I stopped reading. And they're all like, can you read the rest? He's like, there's no iPad mini Prism. And all of us just collectively exhale like, oh my God, we've been searching for this for so long.

• 1:37:11David Imel?

  So there still is, they still made an iPad mini Prism, but they haven't sent it to me. They just had me do all the videos with the Pro. So, long story short, I made everybody look around and dig through the trash for 45 minutes for something that I thought existed and wasn't actually in the studio. That's my bad. I'll own that one. I was like, starting to, I was like, who threw it out? Like, somebody, somebody misplaced, did I misplace it? I was mad at myself. I'll own that one.

• 1:37:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I think everybody at one point had a blame of someone else was like, Mariah was walking around with the trash bag before. Did she grab it? It's like, Marquez probably left this at home because he got it on Friday. We're like, who emptied the trash bag on Friday?

• 1:37:44David Imel?

  Just staring at my desk like, do I have it? I haven't even been here, but like.

• 1:37:48Speaker 05

  When I was gone on Monday, you all literally like Lord of the Flies here. Like, it took one day to turn on each other.

• 1:37:55David Imel?

  It was crazy. It was crazy. But anyway, long story short, it was all, it was all a dream. That's what we're here for.

• 1:38:02Andrew Manganelli?

  That story's probably way more fun if you were part of it and not that interesting if you weren't, but a little deep dive.

• 1:38:06David Imel?

  We're 40 into the pod now. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, anyway, I think it's time I get some trivia points. You got some last week. Yeah, but I'm, I need, I want more.

• 1:38:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, Adam, you should probably check because the chance of Mariah and I screwing up trivia points over the last few edits is essentially 100%.

• 1:38:25David Imel?

  I'm not going to say the points this time. I'm just going to fix it in the edit, so check the video. I'm probably missing a few. You could just add a few on there for mine.

• 1:38:33Speaker 05

  Guys, I still have the same blank Google.com page loaded in the Google Chrome browser. And I need you to tell me how many buttons are present that will take me to Gemini.

• 1:38:47David Imel?

  Closest without going over.

• 1:38:48Speaker 05

  No, Delta, remember Oops All Delta?

• 1:38:50David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:53David Imel?

  I didn't, I mean, I didn't.

• 1:38:54Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean.

• 1:38:54David Imel?

  I didn't actually see it.

• 1:38:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I think we all know there's probably like.

• 1:38:57David Imel?

  I already finished writing too.

• 1:38:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Only so many that can fit on a page.

• 1:39:01David Imel?

  I mean.

• 1:39:03Andrew Manganelli?

  There's a number I want to say and the number I think it is.

• 1:39:05David Imel?

  That's exactly where I'm at.

• 1:39:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Yep, I think.

• 1:39:07David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:08Andrew Manganelli?

  There's the number we all want to say higher than the number we put down.

• 1:39:12David Imel?

  By one.

• 1:39:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, by one? Mine's by two.

• 1:39:14Speaker 05

  All right.

• 1:39:15David Imel?

  I tried it.

• 1:39:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Whoa.

• 1:39:16David Imel?

  Oh, God.

• 1:39:17Speaker 05

  All right, everybody, who would like to read their number first?

• 1:39:21David Imel?

  David would.

• 1:39:23Speaker 05

  David?

• 1:39:24Andrew Manganelli?

  That means, I know what it means if you said, who wants to read first?

• 1:39:27Speaker 05

  Who wants to read? Well, I'm going to reveal after everyone reads.

• 1:39:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, that means we're all equally the same amount of way, right?

• 1:39:32Speaker 05

  Why do you think that?

• 1:39:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Because normally when somebody's wrong, you say, hey, Mr. Wrong Guy, can you read first?

• 1:39:37Speaker 05

  I do tend to do that.

• 1:39:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 1:39:38David Imel?

  Oh, you're right.

• 1:39:40Speaker 05

  Someone read first.

• 1:39:41David Imel?

  Seven.

• 1:39:42Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:39:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Three.

• 1:39:43Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:39:44David Imel?

  Three. It's five.

• 1:39:46Andrew Manganelli?

  It's five, isn't it?

• 1:39:47David Imel?

  There's no way it's five.

• 1:39:47Speaker 05

  No, it's six. David won.

• 1:39:50David Imel?

  Six?

• 1:39:51Speaker 05

  David gets the point.

• 1:39:52David Imel?

  Let's go. Damn.

• 1:39:53Speaker 05

  Congratulations, David.

• 1:39:55David Imel?

  Tough look for me. All right, question number two. On mobile, how long were you allowed to upload videos with IGTV back in the day?

• 1:40:08David Imel?

  Phrase weird, but you get it.

• 1:40:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm very intrigued if people go.

• 1:40:13David Imel?

  I'm guessing.

• 1:40:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Low or high.

• 1:40:15David Imel?

  Based on. We're doing Delta, so. Yeah.

• 1:40:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm so wrong. The more I think about this, I'm very wrong.

• 1:40:22David Imel?

  So on desktop, you could upload for 60 minutes. 60 minutes. On mobile, you could upload how long of a video. Exactly. Okay.

• 1:40:30Speaker 05

  What do you got?

• 1:40:32David Imel?

  What did you write?

• 1:40:35Speaker 05

  Andrew, do you want to go first?

• 1:40:39David Imel?

  We're back.

• 1:40:39Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know.

• 1:40:40David Imel?

  You're so bad.

• 1:40:41Andrew Manganelli?

  I wrote four hours, but then I was like, who could fit a four hour video on your phone? That makes no sense.

• 1:40:47David Imel?

  David and I have to tie and get both the points, right?

• 1:40:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:40:50David Imel?

  We wrote 10 minutes. Are we correct?

• 1:40:51Speaker 05

  You are not correct, but you got the points.

• 1:40:54Andrew Manganelli?

  It was 20.

• 1:40:54David Imel?

  What was the answer?

• 1:40:54Speaker 05

  It was 15 minutes.

• 1:40:55David Imel?

  Yeah, I figured it must be less than desktop because they didn't want to accidentally use all people's people's data and have them get mad at them. That was my guess. I was basing it based on how TikTok recently added the ability to do both 10 and 60 minutes. But that was recent. Remember, this was 2018. I thought TikTok was responding to Instagram. Well, TikTok is responding to Instagram like 60 years ago.

• 1:41:17Andrew Manganelli?

  This is IGTV though, so you're way earlier. Did YouTube used to have a four hour limit on videos?

• 1:41:23David Imel?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Why do I have?

• 1:41:24David Imel?

  They had a file size limit.

• 1:41:25Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm an idiot.

• 1:41:26David Imel?

  I don't think so because there's all those 10 hour videos on YouTube. Yeah, I think it was a file size limit that recently got boosted to way higher. Oh. Also thumbnails got a file size bump as well. Oh, yeah. There were like two megabytes forever. Yeah. And now they're like real like images.

• 1:41:39Speaker 05

  Tim was so excited. He's like, give me your highest quality files.

• 1:41:42David Imel?

  Yeah, Tim, I mean, Tim puts his heart and soul into thumbnails and then it would be like, now compress it to like the tiniest two megabyte file you can imagine. And there's crazy banding on TVs and it looks horrible, but now we can upload real 15 megabyte thumbnails. It's a good time. Thank God. Yeah, and they'll upload in zero seconds flat on our new internet. God, I'm so excited for that. Gigabit. Anyway, thank you so much for watching the pod, for listening. Leave a comment below encouraging me to get more studio, uh, sorry, more trivia points next time. If you made it this far, just for me, just to, just to make sure I get more points. That'd be great. All right. Catch you guys next week. See you soon. Peace.

• 1:42:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Waveform is produced by Admeline and Ellis River. We're part of Vox Media Podcast Network. And our track for music was created by Vansil.

• 1:42:26David Imel?

  Let's go.

• 1:42:36David Imel?

  Yeah, I gotta close the memes. Instagram long form. This is like a grab bag episode. It's a fun one. Yeah. And also I'm going to touch my screen all fucking day.

• 1:42:46Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country. Built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes. Earn up to 10% back on hotels and in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/vox.

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  Life can be messy and complicated, especially during the holidays. One thing that isn't, switching to the simplicity plan from Verizon. It's one plan, one price, just $30 a line per month for you or the whole family. Make the simple choice this season. Switch to Verizon and shop their best holiday deals today.