Is This Really the Chrome Killer?

This week, Marques, Andrew, and David discuss some of the big news of the week including One UI betas, a new Dyson vacuum that Andrew is hyped about, and a Pixel 10 leak (shocker). After that, they chat with Josh Miller from The Browser Company about what is going on with the the AI browser wars, what's really going on with Arc, and what does the future of the new Dia browser look like. Then they wrap it all up with trivia and the Crown and Clowns of the month. It's a long one but we learned a lot and we hope you will too. Enjoy! Vox Media survey! Links: Verge - Samsung One UI 8 Beta Dyson vacuum announcement Tom's Guide - Apple to launch dedicated gaming app MacHash - Mobile gaming on iPhones PhoneArena - Pixel 10 leak The Browser Company - Dia browser Climate Town x Waveform Episode K. A. E Sports Talk Music provided by Epidemic Sound Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Social: Waveform Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Waveform Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/?hl=en Hosts: Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from, but when that context is scattered across tools, threads, and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying blind. That's the problem that Jira solves. What's the goal tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all these pieces together from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more, so nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Learn more at jira.com. That's J-I-R-A dot com.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  I mean, you don't bet in Blackjack, but it's still gambling.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  You don't pick at a mountain and say, I'm betting this much.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Yes, you do. That is exactly how you play Blackjack.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  I like you just play until you're like, no, I want to stop. And then we decide you stop.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Every single hand you put more money down.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  And you say, I am putting this much money.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Oh, then never mind.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yo, what is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marquez. I'm Andrew. And I'm David. And, okay, this week, we've got a hilarious Pixel 10 leak. It's happening again. We're back. The cycle repeats itself every year. But we also have a really impressive and funny Dyson product. And also, we've got the CEO of the browser company joining us later in this episode to help us figure out what's going on with Arc and the wide world of browsers, because there's a lot happening. But first, I just want to thank you guys for subscribing. This is a subscriber-only episode. We fixed a bug from last week where non-subscribers could watch, so we appreciate you. Thanks for tuning in. If you're watching, you are subscribed.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Hopefully that bug doesn't happen again. Also, there's a quick survey we want to ask you to fill out if you have some time. The Podcast Network, we're a part of Vox, is looking to figure out some extra information about what's working well in the podcast space, what's not, what you like about waveform, what you don't. So we'll have a link in the description if you have some time you want to check that out and be super helpful to the rest of the podcast on our network. So thank you for that. Yeah. Anyway, um, we should jump right in. Andrew has a tech support question.

• 2:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, I do.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  I kind of want to chime in too, but I'll let you break it down.

• 2:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Cool. Ever since I've updated to one UI seven, I think I mentioned briefly that I have really been enjoying.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Which phone do you have, by the way?

• 2:57Andrew Manganelli?

  S24.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Regular S24?

• 2:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Regular S24.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:01Andrew Manganelli?

  So I've been enjoying one UI seven. I did do the like notifications change so they're all together. Um, I don't love the vertical scrolling app drawer. I was really used to my pages. I know you can do it, but then it takes them out of alphabetical order. Anyways, I've been enjoying it, but I've been having this issue for like the last two weeks. My wireless charger at home overnight, I keep waking up at like 20% battery and I cannot tell exactly what's going on.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  You didn't get fully refreshed when you slept?

• 3:30Andrew Manganelli?

  No, yeah, my eight sleep is just like, maybe you should try falling asleep. No, no.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Only a 20% charge?

• 3:35Andrew Manganelli?

  My phone, I put it on.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:38Andrew Manganelli?

  The same charger I've been using since I've had, since before I've had this phone. It has always worked every single night because I have a MagSafe case and it's a MagSafe charger. So I don't have to worry about it getting knocked off the charger at all.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I put it on and I fall asleep and I wake up and it's not charged. And it doesn't happen every night, but I would say in the last week, five of the nights.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  That's bad.

• 3:59Andrew Manganelli?

  It's really bad.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  That's five sevens.

• 4:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. The, in fact, the last two nights I've gotten it because I've put it on the charger. Sometimes it says it's charging and then like within the next 30 seconds it'll stop charging, which I think is what's happened a couple of times. The last few nights I've put it on and like watched it like a hawk. And then like we'll watch a YouTube video and then I'll tap it and make sure it's still charging and then I'll go to sleep knowing it'll, then it, then I wake up at a hundred percent.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  That's anxiety inducing.

• 4:24Andrew Manganelli?

  It's horrible.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  So if you had just told me this story in isolation, I would have gone, mm, I don't know. I think something just might be wrong with your phone. Something probably just went loose in the back and maybe you need to have it repaired or something like that. But I've also been daily driving a Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra. I also updated to one UI with the latest software update. And I also lately have started having more times that I wake up and my phone hasn't charged. And I also have a bedside wireless charger. It's kind of annoying that there's no wires. So I, I, some phones that I test don't have wireless charging and I'm just, whatever. But I have a wireless charger next to my bed, so I put the phone on the wireless charger. And I usually do a pretty good job of placing it right where I know the wireless charging coil is. And then I wake up and it's charged.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  And probably two out of the last five nights, it hasn't, especially the last two in a row. And that to me is more than a coincidence. That we both have a Samsung phone. We just both updated the software. And you, yours can't be an alignment issue because you have the magnets.

• 5:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  And so I would have thought mine is just a coincidental alignment issue. But now I'm, I'm starting to try to think.

• 5:32Andrew Manganelli?

  It's weird. I've tried, I haven't tried with too many other chargers. I tried with our Ridge Power Bank and it like wasn't working. And then I kind of got it to work a little bit. That may have been a pre-production unit, so I'm not 100% sure.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  The Ridge.

• 5:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Maybe the, the Power Bank was just like being a little weird. I have one of those like Nomad Full Desk ones. And when I put it on that where it's like completely covered, it seems to work every time. So it's, it's enough of an issue where I think like it could be user error somewhere. It just feels so weird that a charger with two magnets, that's literal only purpose is to make sure it's not knocked off. That has worked for me for over a year. I update and then it stops working.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I think what we should do, because two is still not a huge sample size. I think we should pass this on to the audience. Anyone who has been washing dishes, listening to this, if you've also had this happen, if you have a Samsung phone with the latest software update and have started having wireless charging issues, let us know in the comments section.

• 6:31Andrew Manganelli?

  I will say David's searching it right now.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Music AI mode.

• 6:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Ooh.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm sure that'll nail it.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  It's not helpful.

• 6:38Andrew Manganelli?

  The only thing I've found when I've searched online is there were a few people in One UI 7 having issues with fast charging through a wire. It's like they're not getting the full speeds that it should have been. And that was only a couple little farm posts, so I don't know specifics. I'm not totally sure if it's just a weird bug. I've been trying to figure out if it's like, I put my phone on and I like tapped the screen and is for some reason it waking up and then going back to sleep, doing something weird. It's, it doesn't make me feel confident waking up that I'll have battery charged.

• 7:09David Imel?

  Well, there are two people on the Samsung website that say after the one UI seven update, it says it's charging, but it does not actually increase the battery percentage.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had consecutive nights, one where I started with 19% and woke up with 19%. Another where I knew this had happened the previous night, so I specifically lined it up perfectly and made sure it was charging, went to sleep, woke up the next morning, 40%. So either it charged super slowly or it charged up to 40 and then stopped charging.

• 7:40Andrew Manganelli?

  The one time I did look at it, I looked at the battery like charging graph and I saw it go on the night. And for like two bars, it was charging, then stopped and then like at five-ish or six, there was a bar. So I was wondering if it was the like, because I don't have alarms set on my phone, was it, is it trying to optimize for the like, don't charge it until X amount of time till later? But since I don't have an alarm, it didn't want to do it? But I never used alarms on the last update, maybe I, I don't know.

• 8:09David Imel?

  Yeah. Let us know in the comments if you are anywhere near where we are with our Samsung.

• 8:13Speaker 05

  You haven't used alarms?

• 8:15Andrew Manganelli?

  I use it on my watch.

• 8:16Speaker 05

  So we fully converted you to not using your alarms as your to do list?

• 8:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh yeah. I don't use alarms at all for anything anymore.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  We did it. We did it.

• 8:26Andrew Manganelli?

  The podcast is over.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Podcast saves lives.

• 8:29Andrew Manganelli?

  We fixed him.

• 8:30David Imel?

  Well, lucky for you, Samsung is already testing the one UI eight beta in select countries.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  It's for Android 16, right?

• 8:38David Imel?

  Yeah, Android 16, they're emphasizing multimodal capabilities. It's only available in the US, UK, Germany and South Korea. I believe we're in the United States, so you may be able to do this, but you would have to have an S25.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  You sure about that?

• 8:52David Imel?

  I don't know. We might be part of Canada pretty soon. Anyway, um, so maybe look into that, but you can't because it's only for S25s.

• 9:03David Imel?

  Got it.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Why don't you try this?

• 9:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Just kidding.

• 9:06David Imel?

  You thought. Speaking of, uh, things that sometimes charge. You, you put some Dyson event on here and I did not, I did not see the Dyson event. I did have a friend randomly text me and say, hey, you see that new Dyson though? And I was like, what the?

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Okay, no, it's cool.

• 9:25Andrew Manganelli?

  What I'm gonna, did either of you watch it? I posted it in our Instagram chat. No, that's okay. It's just a clip.

• 9:31David Imel?

  It's fine.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm still on the minimal phone. I don't have Instagram.

• 9:34David Imel?

  Good excuse, good excuse.

• 9:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Your phone also freaked out when you picked it up.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Does that, you know?

• 9:40David Imel?

  So are people really that hyped about vacuum cleaners?

• 9:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, first of all.

• 9:43David Imel?

  This one.

• 9:44Andrew Manganelli?

  This is pretty cool. Okay.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  This one doesn't suck.

• 9:48David Imel?

  But doesn't it?

• 9:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I think this is simultaneously really cool and makes zero sense at all at the same time, which seems pretty par for the course for Dyson, even though I love my Dyson stick vacuum.

• 9:58David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm gonna play this and kind of explain what's going on, but then you can see what I'm talking about. So he's showing on stage this 38 millimeter motor that's inside their products. Cause like, we all know Dyson, they're not really bladeless. It's inside the handle instead, right? So like, these are their small handheld hair dryers with a little motor inside of the handle.

• 10:16David Imel?

  Sure.

• 10:17Andrew Manganelli?

  And it's only 38 millimeters. And then they launched this new product with that same motor, which winds up being the wildest stick vacuum you could ever imagine, that he pulls out of this like pipe behind him? And that is the entire vacuum. He like sticks a vacuum head on it and it is, I mean, a pole at best.

• 10:39David Imel?

  Wait, this is why people are excited? This was part of the set.

• 10:43Andrew Manganelli?

  It was like part of the set.

• 10:45David Imel?

  It was there the whole time. No one noticed because of how thin it is.

• 10:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Pretty boring.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  It's like in Willy Wonka where he's like, you thought this was factory? No, it's candy. It's like, you thought this was set? Nope, more vacuum.

• 10:55David Imel?

  So where does the stuff go?

• 10:57Andrew Manganelli?

  That's exact, after you think this is really cool, then the first thing he goes, can it hold any dirt that it vacuums?

• 11:03David Imel?

  Yeah, it's kind of like how most Dyson's are amazing, but they last 20 minutes.

• 11:07Andrew Manganelli?

  I love my Dyson vacuum.

• 11:09David Imel?

  My Dyson lasts a solid forty minutes. Just, just, you know.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Exciting.

• 11:13David Imel?

  Extra. And that's, I don't, I never vacuum for more than forty minutes.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  That's fair enough. That's fair enough. That's probably what it is. It's ended that way.

• 11:19Andrew Manganelli?

  This is like, so you show some other cool things about how like the new head can like show dirt with this whatever light. And that if it does hair, it actually rolls all the hair up, shoots it to the side, and then you re-roll over it. So it doesn't get caught in all of the blades.

• 11:34David Imel?

  It detects hair.

• 11:36Andrew Manganelli?

  It's just like the way the blades are set up in this cone shape. It filters them out to the outside. But anyways, I just thought it was wild that they have a motor that's powerful enough that's that small that can power an entire vacuum.

• 11:48Speaker 05

  Where do they put the AI?

• 11:50David Imel?

  I'm pretty sure it's got hair detector.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  You know what's funny? Dyson, you know, remember that Vision Pro app where you could like vacuum and it would show you where you vacuumed already? And you put like coins or whatever. I scrolled down on Dyson's site and they have literally a mount that you put your phone attached to your vacuum cleaner. So you can see where you vacuumed before with AR.

• 12:10David Imel?

  Okay. This company is wild in the best way.

• 12:13Speaker 05

  I want to talk to them. I agree. That's so genius.

• 12:16David Imel?

  I mean, yeah, James Dyson is like the son of the guy that invented the company, right?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  They're on one. This is the pencil vac.

• 12:24Andrew Manganelli?

  This event was seemed pretty short and it was like really chill. He was just like, this is it. This is what it is.

• 12:31David Imel?

  Okay.

• 12:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Cool. Like, look at it and that's it.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  Available later this year.

• 12:35David Imel?

  Why do they have a keynote event for a vacuum cleaner?

• 12:38Andrew Manganelli?

  It's more than just a vacuum cleaner.

• 12:40Speaker 05

  There's a hair dryer also.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  James Dyson founded Dyson. It's, it's, he's the guy.

• 12:44David Imel?

  Oh, he's still there.

• 12:45Andrew Manganelli?

  To give one. This is him.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Craziest Wikipedia, one of the craziest Wikipedia page introductions. James Dyson is a British inventor, industrial designer, farmer, and businessman.

• 12:57David Imel?

  Yeah. There's a really good, there's a really good how I built this episode about Dyson.

• 13:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, really?

• 13:01David Imel?

  It's super good.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. To give them credit, we don't really talk about any other vacuum company because they're not that interesting.

• 13:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Dyson is making a weird category we don't usually talk about, kind of interesting. I mean, they have tiny motors and they just put. And stuff vacuums makes a lot of sense. They also did hair.

• 13:21David Imel?

  Hair dryers.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  They also did that's that fan, the bladeless fan.

• 13:25David Imel?

  They did the headphones with the mask that gives you COVID.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  So, yeah, they're they're out here innovating. They do keynotes. They had that. That is kind of the pinnacle.

• 13:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Tech keynote like thing you can do is go that product. That's a top secret. It's been in front of you this whole time. Boom, part of the set. That's like.

• 13:46David Imel?

  That is.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Every tech company wants to do something like that.

• 13:48David Imel?

  That's true.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  So shout out to Dyson.

• 13:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Dyson's got this weird thing on our podcast where they left like a sour taste in our mouth when we try. They wanted to do that sponsored thing a long time ago. But also, do every single one of us have a Dyson vacuum?

• 14:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:02Andrew Manganelli?

  And like it?

• 14:03David Imel?

  Yes.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 14:05David Imel?

  And I bought it.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  I have a Bissel with money. Bissel, I've heard of that.

• 14:09David Imel?

  A Bissel.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  I will say, I've owned a few Dyson clones and they're just. No, they're just as good.

• 14:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, they're just as good.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Not only they're just as good, but a lot of them have articulating ball joints that my Dyson does not have, but actually kind of made them a little better.

• 14:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Good.

• 14:27David Imel?

  I have those too, but they're breaking down.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Sounds like like the iPhone in 2007 where like other phones came out and immediately built better features and other things.

• 14:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Then there's just the iPhone and the other phones.

• 14:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  There's this dynamic. It feels like Dyson is Apple in this case.

• 14:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  And then everyone else has built potentially better products in certain ways, but the Dyson's still the Dyson.

• 14:48David Imel?

  Yeah, like they took an existing product and they did it in a new, interesting way. That is like worse in some ways, but the industrial design is so interesting. That's kind of worth it. Also, they're making robots soon.

• 15:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Are they really?

• 15:00David Imel?

  They they announced like a robot initiative. They're putting a ton of money into it.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  They make motors.

• 15:05David Imel?

  Exactly.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  They make motors.

• 15:06David Imel?

  It's kind of like how Tesla's not a car company. Dyson's not a vacuum company. And I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm really joking.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  There's a section of Twitter that was like, yes, David, yes, keep going.

• 15:18David Imel?

  I'm really joking.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:20David Imel?

  Okay, well, speaking of.

• 15:25David Imel?

  Do it. Things that are all being put in one place, kinda like when you vacuum things up and it goes into one little container.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Natural.

• 15:33David Imel?

  Apple is gonna put all the games in one place on your phone. You got games on your phone? Apple does. So currently, Apple has Game Center, which is sort of a little thing where you can have little high scores. And it plugs into Apple Arcade, which is their paid service that allows you to have a bunch of games effectively, well, for free, but it's part of the subscription. Obviously, and that is both great and horrible for some other reasons. But regardless, it's kind of separated, right? Like, you can download the games on the App Store because there's an Apple Arcade section of the App Store. But then, the whole Apple system, the Game Center system, is like a really old system. Game Center launched like on the iPod Touch.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  I had it on my iPod Touch, yeah.

• 16:18David Imel?

  Yeah. So it's old, it like looks old, it's, you know, it's not newer. With the, for the last few years, Apple has been really pushing this whole like, you can run high fidelity Resident Evil games on your iPhone, right? And so, they want to basically highlight Apple Arcade more because they're trying to push services, because their devices are getting less and less popular, like, they're selling less iPhones, etc. So, there is a rumor that at WWDC in a couple of weeks, they're going to launch a new dedicated gaming app. Which not only sort of has everything that Game Center had, but it's sort of like a Xbox style launcher on your phone. Where all of your games will be inside.

• 17:01David Imel?

  It'll have all the like, oh, your friends are online, here's your high scores, here's all this information. And then also, currently, when you're on the App Store, you had just have to go find games on the App Store and then download them. You can download theoretically, this is based on this leak, all of the games on the App Store through this game app. So it's just sort of a consolidated place for you to do gaming on your iPhone. This is, this sort of makes sense because Apple's been really like pushing a lot of gaming features on not only iPhones but also Macs for the last couple of years. I could see this also being pushed to Mac and then they have an opportunity to compete with like Steam in some sort of way, right? Especially if they finally get developers to actually develop for

• 17:45David Imel?

  Mac, which they've been trying to do. They've been really trying to do that for a long time, but with their new like porter, like porting toolkit that allows you to port games to Mac really easily. I think that they're hoping that developers are actually going to start doing that. They only announced that like a year or so ago. So I think at this WWDC, we're going to see how many people have actually started using this toolkit.

• 18:07Speaker 05

  All six of them.

• 18:08David Imel?

  All six of them.

• 18:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I think it makes sense to put it all in one. I also think there's, and being able to see what your friends are playing is, opens up a new opportunity to potentially find new games by being like, oh, David's playing this. I've never heard of that. Let me go, I'm hoping there's a way to be like, let me see that game in now the, not the App Store, but the new game store, whatever you want to call it.

• 18:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Do you guys play games?

• 18:32David Imel?

  Got games on your phone?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Like, take a second, because you usually don't think like, okay, I don't play like COD or like Fortnite on my phone, but do you play like-

• 18:39David Imel?

  But you can now, by the way, because Fortnite's back on the App Store.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Fortnite is back on the App Store.

• 18:42David Imel?

  As of a few days ago.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  But do you even play like random mindless Candy Crush type, any other type of game at all?

• 18:48David Imel?

  I literally, my entire life have never had games on my phone, at all. In the last few months, there are two games that I now play on my phone, which are Pokemon Trading Card Game Pocket, which Andrew abandoned me on.

• 19:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, because I'm tired of vacuum cleaner Pokemon.

• 19:04David Imel?

  Yeah, same. But you know, it's a slot machine.

• 19:07Andrew Manganelli?

  If only it was a Dyson Pokemon.

• 19:08David Imel?

  Yeah, Dyson Mon. Dyson Mon. And then I also play Bellatro, which is not gambling, just letting you know. It's not gambling.

• 19:16Andrew Manganelli?

  No, Bellatro, I kind of want to try it.

• 19:19David Imel?

  It's really, really good.

• 19:20Speaker 05

  It won Game of the Year last year.

• 19:21David Imel?

  Yeah, it did.

• 19:22Speaker 05

  It's gambling.

• 19:23David Imel?

  It's not gambling. You don't use real money at all. That doesn't mean it's not gambling.

• 19:27Andrew Manganelli?

  There's something bad about saying you don't use real money. Well, you don't even bet money. Yeah, yeah, you don't use money at all. I would just say like that.

• 19:34David Imel?

  You don't use money at all? You don't even bet.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  I mean, you don't, you don't bet in blackjack, but.

• 19:39David Imel?

  Yeah, you do.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  You don't pick it amount and say I'm betting this much.

• 19:42David Imel?

  Yes, you do.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  You keep.

• 19:43Andrew Manganelli?

  That is how you.

• 19:44David Imel?

  That is exactly how you play blackjack.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  I like to just play until, until you're like, no, I want to stop. And then when you decide you stop.

• 19:49David Imel?

  Every single hand you, you.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Every hand you put down.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  And you say, I am putting this much money.

• 19:54David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Oh, then never mind. But I do have another.

• 19:57David Imel?

  Casino game.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  I do want to say, uh, I read last month in Mac Hash, a stat that really surprised me.

• 20:05David Imel?

  About Bellatro?

• 20:05Speaker 02

  No, about gaming and iPhones. Uh, because, uh, according to Mac Hash, and they did not cite where they got this.

• 20:15Andrew Manganelli?

  That's kind of.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Disclaimer in this article, they do not say the study that this came from, uh, but according to Mac Hash, 86% of iPhone users do use their iPhones to play games.

• 20:28David Imel?

  I would not be surprised.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  I believe.

• 20:30David Imel?

  That's how Apple makes almost all of their revenue.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  But what's interesting is that's 10% higher than Android users.

• 20:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:40David Imel?

  Because Android has a lot of like.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  There is some fraction of Android phones that is not even designed to ever play games. Like they're just a budget phone that, that gets you from point A to point B, and that's fine. And there is also a specific section of Android phones that's just designed to play games, which is why it kind of seems a little weird, but there are gaming phones out there and you're like, oh, if I'm a gamer, it's Android. But game, Android is this whole wide world.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Where iPhones and like regular people, you might be shocked how many people play Farm Bill today.

• 21:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Like it's, it's just everywhere.

• 21:11David Imel?

  Well, Google just removed like millions of apps from the Play Store. And I think the difference is that Apple always had this sheen of like, we have this process where we test a lot of apps. Like it's a big deal when an app gets pushed to the App Store and it ends up having malware in it. Because Apple is supposed to have this like really like really hardcore process where they approve or don't approve apps. Google has more been like sort of this Wild West kind of thing where you can just like publish apps pretty easily.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. From experience, when we had panels go to both the Play Store and the App Store, the experience with the Play Store. Was like, submit. All right, you're in. Instant approval. And the App Store was like, here are these extremely specific things we'd like you to tweak. Wow.

• 21:52David Imel?

  So I think that when you buy a game on the App Store, like, the idea is that the games are supposed to be higher quality. They're supposed to be less, like, spammy. You get all those Instagram ads where it's just like some mindless game where you, and yeah, it's a whole thing.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 22:07David Imel?

  So I think that people assume the games on the iPhone are going to be higher quality. And that's probably why they're more willing to spend money on them.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:15David Imel?

  Also, I think the demographic in general of people who use iPhones primarily is like, they spend more money in general.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Here's a fringe definition of gaming on your phone. Because when I open this app, the gaming mode fires up.

• 22:28Andrew Manganelli?

  You're gonna say the same thing I've been wanting to bring up, and I think it's so funny.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Does Wordle count as gaming on your phone?

• 22:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Wordle?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 22:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. Wordle with the little game optimization booster tab coming up.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  You're gaming right now, bro. I'm like, kinda, yeah.

• 22:43David Imel?

  Firing up the additional GPU cores.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  That's exactly what's happening.

• 22:46Andrew Manganelli?

  The fan's just like, whee!

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Green, yellow, green, yellow, green. It's like, yeah, it's optimized, yeah.

• 22:52Andrew Manganelli?

  I was looking at my phone to be like, what is that service thing called? But it's so funny when it's like, I want to play Wordle for five minutes, you want to optimize this?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  I think that counts towards the 80-something percent.

• 23:01David Imel?

  Oh, for sure. The New York Times app alone probably accounts for like a...

• 23:05Speaker 01

  That's a lot of games right there.

• 23:06David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Crosswords, is your aunt do crossword? She's a gamer. She's a gamer.

• 23:10David Imel?

  Hardcore gamer. All right, last thing that we got.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm gonna need a better, hold on.

• 23:15David Imel?

  A segue?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Speaking of things that are more or less popular than you thought they were.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Pixel 10.

• 23:24David Imel?

  More or less?

• 23:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Things that exist.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Things that are...

• 23:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Speaking of things.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Things that are outside of your originally perceived level of popularity.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Pixel phone.

• 23:37David Imel?

  Is. Alright.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Okay. That, okay.

• 23:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, come on, proceed.

• 23:42David Imel?

  I'll give it to you, let's proceed.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Look, pixels, in, in our world, pixel is, is very well known and everyone knows about the pixel. But outside of our world.

• 23:50David Imel?

  Now I get your transition.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Outside of our world, the pixel is like a 5 percenter type phone. Like, not a lot of people use a pixel. However, there is one thing you can count on with the pixel every year, which is that months before it comes out, it will leak in its entirety, every single thing about it, from the specs to the design, to the new features, to what it looks, everything will be.

• 24:09Andrew Manganelli?

  I have the 10 right here.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, honestly, would not be shocked at all.

• 24:13David Imel?

  Reason you're talking about the pixel, calling your plumber.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  It leaked. Nice. So Pixel 10, uh, there was this tweet that kind of went viral. I think the original might have been deleted, but it's been blasted everywhere now. Which is, somebody was going out for a walk and was walking by what looked like a little commercial shoot, and they looked closely and it was just a Pixel 10 commercial being shot. And the reason they knew that is because they zoomed all the way in and looked at it, and it was clearly a new pixel.

• 24:41Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, I would argue it's not very clearly a new pixel because it looks very similar. The way they knew it was that is you, he got pictures of the whole storyboard that said, "Google Pixel 10", in the storyboard.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  I guess, yeah, if you didn't know it was a new pixel, you would.

• 24:58David Imel?

  It looks just like a 9.

• 24:59Andrew Manganelli?

  It looks like the 9. That could have just been a, a commercial shoot for Pixel 9. He sees this cool Pro Blend, it's a big slider, like an off-set camera shoot. Let's take some pictures. He said he was just interested in the camera. Then he zooms in and gets a picture of the storyboard, which is straight up storyboarding, that ends with, "Ask more of your phone, Google Pixel 10", and like a floating pixel.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  That is so funny.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  These, uh, these Samsung-Google marketing partnerships are getting really weird.

• 25:25David Imel?

  Yeah, because didn't he?

• 25:26Speaker 02

  They have to have done this with those Galaxy Super.

• 25:29Andrew Manganelli?

  No, I actually think he's a photographer, so I think he straight up has, he was on a beach, and in his Twitter profile, he has other photos at the beach. I think he just has a really good camera.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  I do want to say, though, I do feel like I was heard, because very last episode, I was like, "We need more interesting phone leaks." None of that, we need phones being left in the wild. Walk on the beach, stumble on a production, like that's, thank you, Google for listening.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  I will say, from the images, I do see a probe lens in there. I'm very curious what they're shooting with the probe lens.

• 25:59David Imel?

  Yeah, they always do that Apple-like shot of it being swept away from the screen.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you go real close to the screen. It's probably gonna be one of those classics. You can look at the whole storyboard and literally see the commercials if you want to.

• 26:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. The interesting things from the storyboard are, one of them shows the like, add me feature going on, where it's like a mother and daughter, and it says like, take a picture, and then we see them walk away and their outline stays, and the dad like runs in. So we know they're gonna talk about that. The other thing I was wondering is, there's a part that says, having a lilac 15. I was wondering if lilac might be a color.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Probably like a light purple type thing?

• 26:34David Imel?

  15 inch though, what does that mean?

• 26:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that was confusing.

• 26:37David Imel?

  Maybe that means 15 seconds.

• 26:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, maybe.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  A lot of commercials are 15 or 30.

• 26:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, that's the name of the commercial, maybe?

• 26:44David Imel?

  Having a lilac, 15 second spot.

• 26:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, that would make more sense.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  I would, you know, it would be amazing.

• 26:49David Imel?

  Who needs Gemini when you got me?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  If somebody, some really talented YouTuber, who is good at cinematography and has the right equipment, could create this commercial before Google.

• 27:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, shit. Holy shit.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  And put it out.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  We have the storyboard.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Cause we have a storyboard, we have the shots, we know what gear they're using, we know they're shooting it outside.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  And we just use the Pixel 9.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Get branded on the phone.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  I'd like to put that challenge out there.

• 27:18David Imel?

  Cause I was gonna say, it would be very funny, I kinda wanna put this, like, all these photos into Google Flow and see if it'll just make the commercial.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Did you just have that idea right now?

• 27:31Andrew Manganelli?

  That's such a good idea, Mark.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Damn, we're watching Genius in motion, bro.

• 27:35David Imel?

  This is a genius studio video.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Cause imagine having that and then publishing it right before Google, and then Google publishes theirs, and you're like, well.

• 27:41Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a studio video. We've got plenty of time to do this.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  I think there are some quality creators out there who could pull this off. I'm just, I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not gonna do it, so I'm, I'm leaving the idea out there.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  We're not gonna do it?

• 27:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, you're not gonna do it, we might do it. I'm already throwing this to Eric by the time we get out of here.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Alright, we might try it. We might try it.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  We made, we made the pixel commercial.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  I kinda like to say, okay, maybe we will do this.

• 28:04David Imel?

  I thought you were being facetious.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  No, I think someone actually should do it, and maybe it should be us.

• 28:08David Imel?

  I think that's the case.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Now we're talking.

• 28:11David Imel?

  I think that's a true fact.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, we may, we, because this would go, yeah, I like this.

• 28:15David Imel?

  This would go very viral.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm keeping this side, you can do it too, but maybe we'll do it also.

• 28:21David Imel?

  Can I play the Pixel 10?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  You can be the, the add me dad.

• 28:26David Imel?

  The add me daddy?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Um, so, uh, what colors does it come in?

• 28:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, lilac made me think of colors, and there was also a leak of what colors are gonna be coming out, which is obsidian, iris, blue, limoncello.

• 28:38David Imel?

  Lemoncello.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  So black.

• 28:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Which I do remember, what was, was it like the Pixel?

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Yellow?

• 28:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Seven had that like yellow color?

• 28:44David Imel?

  Wait, what is limoncello, yellow?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Limoncello is yellow.

• 28:46David Imel?

  Okay. Wow, yellow, so goldish?

• 28:49Speaker 01

  It's the same color.

• 28:50David Imel?

  I think it's like quite yellow.

• 28:51Andrew Manganelli?

  It's like pretty yellow.

• 28:52David Imel?

  Yeah. Which is weird.

• 28:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, cool, well, I was gonna say the only reason this leak was interesting, because of the storyboard, and I think you proved that, that was the interesting part.

• 29:02David Imel?

  Waveform is our brainstorming session.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  I was making YouTube videos for probably a decade before I knew what a storyboard was. I didn't, I never went to film school, never learned what a storyboard was, but once you understand how direct this commercial storyboard is, probably one to one with what the commercial is, you can literally just make the commercial.

• 29:20Andrew Manganelli?

  The storyboard for this podcast episodes is crazy.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  The script is in.

• 29:25David Imel?

  Yeah. Scene one, we're sitting here. Scene five, we're still sitting here. Interior, podcast studio, the boys are talking.

• 29:36Andrew Manganelli?

  The temperature just rises one degree in every story.

• 29:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Andrew Manganelli?

  The tweet did get deleted, if you want to see it, there's a like Reddit thread and a nine to five Google article, if you just type in Pixel 10 leak, you'll find it.

• 29:49David Imel?

  Speaking of, like, real quick, just speaking of leaks, that did get deleted, unfortunately, someone unboxed the Nintendo Switch 2, just to get that SEO in there. Um, and it was only like a seven second clip, but it got taken down like immediately.

• 30:02Andrew Manganelli?

  That person probably got taken down, right?

• 30:05David Imel?

  Got copyright strikes.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I saw the, I saw an article that tried to embed the YouTube video, like, okay, obviously it's gonna be deleted, and it played, and it was like, this is a copyright strike, and I was like, yeah, did Nintendo, like?

• 30:14David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Snap?

• 30:16David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Mario just showed up with a pipe. With a hammer.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  It's a me. Yeah, that's gonna be tough, tough for whoever's trying to re-upload that. Maybe they probably already did re-upload it somewhere.

• 30:28David Imel?

  I was looking for a re-upload like all night last night and I couldn't find it.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  There's probably a team of like a hundred people working on striking those.

• 30:34David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Shout out to them.

• 30:35David Imel?

  That's true. Um, speaking of Switch 2 really quickly, we're not gonna be able to really cover it immediately, which kind of sucks because it comes out on Thursday.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Never say never. We're gonna try. We'll see. Stay subscribed to the general network of channels.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  If something really important happens like during the launch, we could, we'll, we'll come in, we'll record a little quickie banger on Thursday or something like that.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. If only for the intro because they already know.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Better be really good.

• 31:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Lemoncello.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Well, we do have a lot more to talk about after the break, including an interview, and we want to figure out what is happening in the world of browsers right now. So we will do that. But before that, trivia.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  All right. Welcome back to Waveform Trivia. Guys, I think I cracked the code. I feel like the guy in the Da Vinci Code right now because it's been cracked. I think.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Isn't it Tom Hanks?

• 31:27Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 31:27David Imel?

  Yes, Tom Hanks.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  I figured out a way to talk about basketball on this podcast without an angry mob showing up.

• 31:34David Imel?

  Yo, the Knicks guy loves this.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  No, no, we're not talking about that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't ruin this for me. Don't bring it up.

• 31:40David Imel?

  David, you're Knicks lore. You gotta keep that out of here somewhere else.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  In Korea, some Korean basketball teams have such strong sponsorship affiliations with tech companies that the tech company's name is actually in the team name in between the city and the mascot.

• 31:59David Imel?

  Okay. And the mascot.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  So which of the following KBL teams is not real? Andrew, what do you Google?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Oh no, sorry. This is a baseball thing that I wanted to bring up.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Okay, but be very careful.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  I'm not. I promise you.

• 32:15David Imel?

  Make sure he's not looking up.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  All right.

• 32:16David Imel?

  He looked up the Samsung.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  A, the Seoul Samsung.

• 32:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, we're not answering right now, are we?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we heard.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  You know, what if I wanted a little fanfare? God forbid, Ellis has a little fun on this podcast.

• 32:32David Imel?

  It's not in the storyboard. You're not allowed to go off script.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Anyway, A, the Seoul Samsung thunders. B, the Changwon LG Sakers. Saker is a kind of falcon. C, the Olsan Hyundai Mobus Phoebus.

• 32:49David Imel?

  Hate this.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Gotta explain that one a little bit. Olsan, city in Korea. Hyundai Mobus is a division of Hyundai. And Phoebus is, is an epithet for the Greek god Apollo.

• 33:00David Imel?

  Wow.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Or D, they're all real.

• 33:05David Imel?

  You know how we have theoretically, we have separation between church and state in America? I feel like in Korea, they really need separation between sport and brand.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't like.

• 33:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Those brands are massive.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  They're big brands.

• 33:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I mean, the, the brands are just so huge.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  I just want to say, there is an irony to the fact that we are recording this podcast less than 10 miles away from the stadium that homes the New York Red Bulls.

• 33:31David Imel?

  Well, but that's not, right?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  No, that is.

• 33:36Andrew Manganelli?

  That is the name of the team.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  And it is that Red Bull.

• 33:38David Imel?

  Indiana, according to Gemini, is very close in size to South Korea.

• 33:43Andrew Manganelli?

  So imagine if you had a brand.

• 33:45David Imel?

  But I don't know if that's true.

• 33:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Like Indiana had a basketball team, let's say the Pacers.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  We're done here.

• 33:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, I just want to say, since we're talking about scoreboards.

• 33:54David Imel?

  Aren't they winning?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:56Andrew Manganelli?

  R I P, R I P, the poop MLB scoreboard. Did you see?

• 34:01Speaker 02

  R I P the poop. Wow. Wow. Real Pennsylvania.

• 34:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Whenever the Phillies and the Pirates would play, the scoreboard would be the P for Phillies, zero for the score, then zero for the score and P for Pirates. And for like 10 years, the scoreboard would always just say poop at the start of every game. And it's, they changed it this year and they did like a eulogy, like in the broadcast for it.

• 34:25David Imel?

  That's so funny.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  It was Philly sports and Pittsburgh sports have some rivalries going on. And so celebrating this rivalry with the poop scoreboard is like a beloved Pennsylvania tradition.

• 34:36David Imel?

  I didn't know their logo was just a P.

• 34:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Why, you, why don't you just use two letters?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Like PH.

• 34:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, no, those are their logos.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Their team logo.

• 34:44Andrew Manganelli?

  That's their team logo. It's not even just the like, letter of their name.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Really funny. All right. We will, we will think about these, these potential brand team collabs. Answers will be at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

• 35:10Speaker 00

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• 35:40Speaker 06

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• 36:48Speaker 01

  All right, welcome back. So this next segment is a bit of a different one. It's an extra person, but we're all still chatting. I don't know if you guys have picked up on this, but I feel like on social media and the past couple of weeks online, I've seen a lot more chatter about browsers. New browser here, up and coming browser there, AI alongside your browser here. And it's just got me thinking a lot about what the future of browsers actually is. It's not a question we think about very often, but now it's something we're thinking about. And so who better to have that conversation with than Josh, CEO of The Browser Company? They've made a browser called Arc that a lot of us at the studio have fallen in love with and started using. And then they also rapidly pivoted very recently and started working on a new browser

• 37:31Speaker 01

  that's powered by AI called Dia. We have thoughts on it. He, of course, is going to have things to say about it. So we figured we'd have that whole conversation here on Waveform. It's also just a segment of the conversation that you're about to hear. We're going to have the longer and tighter full published thing on Monday. So if you want to stay tuned for that, get subscribed. But here are some of the best parts of that conversation with Josh from The Browser Company about browsers, what's going on with them. Hey, Josh, thanks for joining us.

• 37:59Speaker 07

  Thanks for having me.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Not super long trip, but easy to get here.

• 38:02Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  And we love having you. First of all, let's introduce you because you're the CEO of The Browser Company. And The Browser Company is a pretty self-explanatory name, but break down what you do, what the company does, and then we can chat about all this stuff.

• 38:15Speaker 07

  Thank you so much for having me. When we started The Browser Company, people warned me that nobody cares about web browsers. So didn't think this is why I would be here, but it's awesome to have made it on Waveform, making web browsers. So thank you for having me. We make two browsers. We make a browser called Arc, which is awesome to see on both of your screens.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  You probably noticed it.

• 38:33Speaker 07

  I appreciate it. And then a new AI browser called Dia, which I'm excited to talk about today.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Is that a reference to Dia Beacon, by the way?

• 38:41Speaker 07

  Naming's hard. So for one of the people. Dia Beacon had a connection to it, but yeah.

• 38:47David Imel?

  Dia Beacon is a art museum in Beacon, New York.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I remember saying a while ago, Arc is a good name, too.

• 38:56Speaker 07

  I do remember that. I definitely remember that.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  It's a good name.

• 38:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, and also Dia is kind of like a new day, a new dawn.

• 39:03Speaker 07

  If there's one thing that is hard at startups, naming anything and creating a logo for anything is a religious debate.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Totally fair.

• 39:09Speaker 07

  We got here.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  So, I mean, as we've talked about on this podcast, there's been like a lot of chatter in the browser world. You know, obviously, we're a more niche group of people really into tech, but it just feels like there's movement with browsers and with people trying new things and new concepts and new ideas of what the internet is and what search is. And it's all very interesting. And so I figured it would be cool to have you talk a little bit about, number one, how we got to Arc, and then, number two, how you moved from Arc to Dia being the second big focus and big project.

• 39:40Speaker 07

  Sure. Yeah, so our original observation that led to the browser company was that it was 2019, 2020, and I was actually working at a VC firm for two years. And I was noticing that all of the kind of hot new startups that were coming in, they were all web apps for the first time. You know, for the 10 years before that, everything I'd been working on were mobile apps. And now these companies are coming in and showing these wild new reinventions.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Documents.

• 40:04Speaker 07

  Exactly. And then what struck me was every time they came in, they were in this rectangle that was Chrome, and that thing hadn't changed at all in decades. But the thing that really got me excited about browsers was that observation. And then my wife got a job with a 76-year-old artist in Flagstaff, Arizona, the least tech-centric workplace you can imagine. And I saw her in her new job. She never left Chrome. Even in the art world, you know, she got sent PDFs from galleries and they were URLs that she opened in Chrome. She spent hours and hours every day in Chrome. And myself and my co-founder and the early employees were all consumer backgrounds. People that worked at Snapchat and Instagram were really interested in how software can touch people at scale, you know, all the people in our life.

• 40:46Speaker 07

  And we thought, wait a minute, browsers are one of the most consumer pieces of software imaginable. We don't think about it like that. Like the way you feel about Instagram or your iPhone, no one cares about Chrome or Safari in that way. And so that to us felt like, oh my God, this is this dry utility that hasn't changed in two decades that you use for hours every single day. And everyone's like, yeah, I don't really have an opinion about it. Like where else in tech do you have that? So that was really the simple idea was, okay, if our browsers are now really these effectively operating systems with our apps and files, and you don't care about it, but you're spending hours every day, what might it look like to build a piece of software that people cared so much about and made them feel good? Which kind of gets back to where I started is people warned they don't care.

• 41:30Speaker 07

  And I think part of the reason we're here today is now people care so much about Arc that I'm coming on the Wake One Podcast.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 07

  So be careful what you wish for, I guess.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we end up in a place where like we all are super heavy tech users and a lot of us here, I think all of us actually still use Arc, like really love the browser and the product and the features and a lot of the UI. People can scroll back to previous episodes where we've talked about it. And so it's, it's developed a community where yes, people do care about this web browser.

• 41:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  And now there's this new project you're working on, which is Dia, which is super early. We've all started playing with it and it's, it's very different. It's an, you've already said it's an AI based web browser. Explain what Dia is and then we can figure out like how it exists in the world of browsers.

• 42:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, actually, and before getting into Dia, I'm curious, I went back and re-watched the first time David brought up Arc on this podcast.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 42:19David Imel?

  Which by the way is embarrassing because I had no idea how to explain it.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Well.

• 42:23David Imel?

  I was like, it removes my tabs when I don't use them.

• 42:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Arc got introduced to this whole company because David has a tab hoarding problem and it had a feature to do that. And that was the feature that sold David off.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  And that was only one of the features.

• 42:37Andrew Manganelli?

  But then it slowly grew to multiple people in the office and it's become like a favorite.

• 42:41Speaker 07

  But I remember being so excited to hear that David brought it up on this podcast. And I remember watching the video and like David, I knew he knew about it and you really did stumble.

• 42:51David Imel?

  I just was like, well, it does this and the tabs are on the side. It's kind of, it's weird and it's interesting like hearing you talk about the way that people want to have like an emotional connection with their browser because again, even something as simple as having the tabs on the side of the browser, that's something that is very native to ARC that I think a lot of people are, and we'll get into this later, I think, but like are frustrated about with like DX, it's back to the Chrome experience. But yeah, it's just, there have been many things about ARC that have just like got their hooks into us here at the studio.

• 43:23Speaker 07

  And so the reason I bring it up though, is because on that podcast, you were, I would say, open-minded, but very skeptical. And I'm curious for you, what shifted because it relates to the Dia story that we'll get to in a second, I'm sure.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  I think it's one of those things where I didn't care too much about the browser either. I was using Chrome and then I was switching to Safari on the laptop because of the battery life was better and I was just kind of agnostic and was willing to try something. So I tried something. And I think it was a couple of features that I did like, especially for whatever reason, the side tabs, it's a widescreen machine, like it just made too much sense and I just got hooked. So ARC like quickly became my home and then the syncing across devices, I just like started using ARC a lot.

• 44:03Speaker 07

  Yep. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So to answer your question about Dia, and then I'm sure we can come back to that.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 07

  So there, my personal life and professional life, I keep very separate. You know, my personal life, it's people I went to college with, high school with, they're not in tech, they work in manufacturing or art. And I feel like in the past six months, nine months, all of them have started talking to these AI chat tools for everything in their life. You know, my friend who works in manufacturing, they were talking about, I was hanging out with him a couple of weekends ago and he was saying, there's not a professional project or personal chore that he does not turn to AI in some way to get help with. And the last time, there have been two times in my life that has happened where I woke up one day and all of my personal friends changed the way they interface with their computers. When I was in middle school and everyone got an AIM and MySpace and LiveJournal and Facebook.

• 44:51Speaker 07

  And then in college, starting with a BlackBerry and then the iPhone, when we started doing things like Instagram and then stories on Snapchat. This is that third time in my life. And I feel like because we're so in the tech world, talking about AI, and I actually think I did a poor job of leading us about a year ago because I felt uncomfortable about this. In our industry, AI is like a political topic. It's like politics where you have these two extreme parties and voices that dominate the conversation because they have the time to care about it. You have these AGI maximalists that are like, get ready for UBI. And then you have people that that actually as a reaction to this, and I was part of that at the beginning, are like, it's slop, it's garbage, it's dystopian, it's gonna write our emails to our loved ones, like how dumb it is. And I think when you get out of the building, which we've tried to do for the past year

• 45:36Speaker 07

  and a half, and talk to people that are not in tech, it's somewhere in the middle, but I would actually say slightly closer to the AGI side of it is rewiring how people interface with their computers. There was this University of Nebraska student I interviewed, and she was talking about, I turned to it, for meal planning and for help with outfits and friend advice in school. And so the foundational kind of observation of DIA was that, what is a browser? It is technically a user agent. Your browser is designed to represent you to webpages and web servers and bring stuff back on your behalf. And so it seems so clear outside of the tech world and ARC and all that stuff aside, that people wanted to interface with the internet, not just with webpages anymore, but with AI models and probably in the future, agents like deep research.

• 46:21Speaker 07

  And shouldn't your interface to the internet be able to both handle webpages and chat and models and agents? And so that was the observation that made us so excited to work on DIA. We can obviously talk about ARC as well and the challenges we had there, but that really was the the inciting observation that led us to say, wait a minute, if we're really building a browser, a user agent for the next five, 10 years, which we have to think about, the world is so clearly going there, whether or not the AGI versus AI slop debate gets talked about the most.

• 46:50David Imel?

  I think the big question that opens up, though, is that like, the browser company, a lot of people felt very passionate about the browser company because you guys put so much effort into making the Thursday updates like an event. And the the onboarding, how it was so colorful, and there's just like a feeling that everyone really got close to and associated with. And so I think the feeling that a lot of the community is like, well, if you're gonna do this, fine, but why not just integrate that into ARC? Like, what's the point of like, starting a whole new browser instead? Of just putting those AI features into Arc itself.

• 47:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, and I want to touch on the Thursday updates and the feelings because it's really important. You all were actually influential here. What people miss was the first year of Arc. The first year of Arc did not have a lot of the stuff that people love. And the way that we got to that place was by testing it early with people who are like, no, I don't like it. Here's what I don't like about it. And this is missing the soul. Like, where is that feeling? Where are the craft details? Where is the browser company's spirit? And then us integrating it? You better believe that's in the version of D O when we launched. We just like testing early and often. Now, the question of why not integrate into Arc? Boy, did we try. Like, a year of my life trying to figure out how we could take where we thought the world was going and put it in Arc. There are two problems. I wish there were three because of rule of three, but there were two.

• 48:06Speaker 07

  The first is there's this novelty tax that you get when you try new product. Not you guys, but the average person has a job and they have stuff going on in their life. And someone's like, hey, you should try this new thing, Arc. They have like 30 seconds that they're willing to give to it. And as David talked about stumbling over his original pitch, they're like, okay. So the tabs are over here and there are these things called spaces. And then there are pin tabs, but the pin tabs are different. The bookmarks and these ways you got to try split screen. And it's just like, the people just couldn't handle how much there was to learn that was new. And so we just felt if the world is going to as profoundly shift as we think it is because of these AI models, how are we going to teach you how to interface with AI models and agents, whatever the heck comes,

• 48:50Speaker 07

  while also teaching you about all of those novel concepts?

• 48:52David Imel?

  It's a lot.

• 48:53Speaker 07

  It just seemed, I mean, before AI, that was our biggest problem. That's why we came to the office to try to get you on board, you know? Two years ago is like, you had someone you worked with saying it was amazing. And you work in tech, trying new products. You're like, no, I'm good.

• 49:07David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 07

  So that was problem number one. Problem number two is it touches me and our team that people love Arc so much. It also had performance issues. I think it had way too many features. We built it in a very prototype experimental way. And what we learned over time is the importance of speed and the importance of reliability. And just your browser feeling snappy. And there were architectural decisions we made in Arc and then layered and layered and layered over time. But even if we thought we could solve the novelty problems, it would have been really challenging to hit our bar for speed and performance and other things that were important to us.

• 49:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 07

  I don't quite know how to verbalize this, and if you all think about this with your video creations, but it also felt like ARC was not finished, not perfect, but it had the right components. It was what it was meant to be. It didn't feel like it was missing things. And if you go back to our YouTube comments, maybe a year ago or so, every time we would push a new feature, people would say, I don't want a new feature. I want like Android support. And I don't want a new feature. I want this to be faster. And so I feel like we also don't talk enough in the software world about like, when a product is not done, but in the state it is meant to be, and it is what it is. And you can do with it what you want. And to me, again, people that used ARC, I'm sure you didn't have that many complaints

• 50:23Speaker 07

  with the tab model or the craft details. It sort of felt like the product was what it was meant to be. And there was something to just like come to terms with, you know?

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think that was one of my questions was essentially, is ARC a finished product? Because it is so different, and it is so built, and it has these new fundamentals, and now it kind of does this new thing. And obviously, there's optimizations and speed improvements and little things here and there. But essentially, as an idea, is it done?

• 50:49Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  I feel like it kind of is. At least that was my take, which is why, you know, I think people who use ARC are kind of just asking for the little things now, instead of just like massive new ideas. But yeah, go ahead.

• 51:01Speaker 07

  And the analogy that we use internally is, or one of them is, you know, Frank Ocean's Channel Orange, there was a mixtape that put him on the scene before that. And that only appealed to a certain type of audience. It was a great mixtape, but it was done. It was a finished work of art. It was a complete thought. And Channel Orange was a how do we make something? I'm not sure this, that we thought about it, but like, you know what I mean? It's finished.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very, it's funny, because in the, in the video world where we make a video, we, we kind of, we can edit the video forever. Like, I can edit one video for a year, and it could never be done. But at a certain point, I have to get to 97% and go on to the next one. And so the video gets published, and it's done, and I can never finish it. In the software world, people have this expectation of updates forever. Like, you buy a new phone, and you're like, I want to get Software updates for as long as possible. If I download and install a browser, I want new features and new updates for forever. So the expectation is different. But yeah, I feel like it's it's maybe a little bit more of a statement of the idea being so different that it can finish and be sort of published and and that's different in a software world.

• 52:10Speaker 07

  And honestly, I think it's I'm surprised we don't talk about software more as a cultural product like a video or a piece of art in that way. And that I looked at my iPhone screen, for example, and many of the apps that I still love and I've used for decades, Instapaper, iWriter, even Apple Notes, they're pretty much the same product. And I'm happy with it. Like, one of the things that I will reflect on in a decade is, you know, we started putting out these videos very early on when other tech companies didn't do that, really not with a plan, just to sort of be ourselves and be open and invite the community in and just, I don't know, as an experiment. And a consequence, I think, of our kind of experimental prototype-driven culture where every week there is new stuff. And our experiment of being like, let's just be open about what we're doing, meant that we set this expectation that like, every week,

• 52:55Speaker 07

  there's going to be some new hotness, new features, and that that we thrived on that for so long. Think about Safari. Is Safari a finished product? How long is it? It updates once a year. Yeah, no one complains about that. How, you know, if you whoever you over there use Chrome, how often are you like, man, this new Chrome feature is dope. So I'm that's I don't know what to do with that. Again, it's a byproduct of the way we I have run this company. But I think there's also this interesting bar where no one's complaining that Safari hasn't gotten like wild new features in a long time. So that's fair. I have done a horrible job in many ways. I think communicating about what the heck is going on at the browser company. So I will own that. But Arc's not going anywhere. Arc is not going anywhere. Arc is not going anywhere. We're just focused on

• 53:36Speaker 07

  Dia in terms of where most of our energy is. And then yeah, let's do chromium upgrades. Let's do security patches. Let's do bug fixes. Let's do the same things that these other browsers do.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Okay. How much of your company would you say that you have devoted to making sure that Arc is stable?

• 53:51Speaker 07

  There are probably three engineers at any given time working on one of those topics.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:56Speaker 07

  Yeah. But we're but just to be really clear, I don't want to over. We are not building new features as of now for Arc. So but that is very different than like, this product is being sunsetted or going anywhere, anything like that.

• 54:08Andrew Manganelli?

  When you see your two company or two browsers together. Do you expect people to move from Arc to Dia? Or do you kind of expect the Arc world to stay in Arc? And Dia is a new subset of people coming to it?

• 54:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think we're in a little bit uncharted territory for a software company of our stage. And that, you know, we called it the browser company for a reason. We could have changed the name to Arc many times. And so we've always been excited about having a portfolio of products and of browsers. Having said that, I do think a lot of the things people love about Arc will come to Dia in some form. And so the honest answer is like, I don't know. Because one of the things that's been perplexing about Arc is we tried to get to the root of what was powerful about Arc for people. And it turned out there were like seven different archetypes that used like rant. There was the archetype that used the browser in Zero Chrome like David is here and kind of flew around with keyboard shortcuts. And you had like the space organizer with pinned tabs and folders renamed everything. And so in terms of are people going to go from Arc to Dia?

• 55:07Speaker 07

  We're not going to force anyone to do anything. I really like, I'm, I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm inspired by that. You got the like the MacBook Pro or, and then the MacBook Air and the iPad. And it's different things for different people. But I suspect when we bring things over like a vertical sidebar, when we take a novel take on tab management. I think a lot of people, not to mention the browser company kind of design flair and craft. I suspect a lot of Arc people will prefer Dia. But I get excited about having, having both for the foreseeable future.

• 55:37David Imel?

  So what's your plan to move those Chrome users over then? Right? Because if, if the whole, if the whole idea is it's too complicated for most people. It's equally complicated to just get someone to move on to something else at all. Like, there's a lot of friction there. You're a small company. There's not a lot of brand recognition for my mom. You know, what's like, how, how are you planning on like finding those people who were never going to see the browser company at all? Because the whole point, right, is that you, is that Arc is sort of a limited user base because it's the power users.

• 56:07Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 56:07David Imel?

  If Dia is supposed to be, let's take all of Chrome's market share. How do you access those people at all?

• 56:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, that is the big question. That has always been the question for this company from day one. So I don't want to purport to have like the definite answer. But the theory of Dia is, so if you go back to the idea of a browser as a user agent. And it's a user agent for webpages. And now it's going to be user agent for models and chat. I think one of the things we concluded with. Arc is that Chrome actually and Safari do great jobs with webpages. Obviously, there are things around tab management and alongsides, but like I think for most people, they're fine with the way their user agent, their browser opens tabs. When you talk to those people, I referenced the, you know, the college friend and my wife about what, what is frustrating about these AI chat tools? We really hear two things.

• 56:53Speaker 07

  The first is it's a pain in the butt to get that context out of whatever app or file you're working in, into the chat tool, so it has the awareness of what you're working on to do the damn thing. The second thing that frustrates them is it doesn't know anything about them. Even with memory, it knows the chats that you've had, but it doesn't really know what is your taste? What is your writing style? What are the things that you love? What are the things that you don't like? The browser, the traditional browser and traditional webpages solve both of those issues. Because as we started with, what are your tabs in 2025? Their apps and their files. So you don't have to copy and paste and futz around to get stuff out into chat. Let's just bring these AI models right to where you are in the apps and files that you use every day.

• 57:35Speaker 07

  And then the second bet is that, you know, you know how when you use Instagram reels or TikTok? For better or worse, it feels like every swipe, every action like teaches the algorithm to better understand you. Yeah. The way that it should feel in the future is that in an AI browser like DIA, every tab that you open, it feels like this model, it's not Sam Altman's GPT-4O, it's like GPT David. And it's getting better and better and trained for you, every action that you take. So that when you ask a question about something else, it does not only has the context of that tab, that you don't have to copy and paste into a tool. It also remembers the last seven shopping sessions that you did, or the last 17 things that you wrote. Like the way that I've, I can't quite, this is the first external marketing thing I've done.

• 58:17Speaker 07

  So I don't actually have my language down yet, but there's something I've been thinking about that with Arc, the sort of hero image was the cluttered tab bar. Whenever we showed like seven windows with 50 tabs open, people are like, I hate that. I want whatever this is that fixes that. And that's so interesting because in the old world, that was a problem. That was clutter, that was chaos. In the world of AI models, that is like person, that's like oil. It is. It is the context that is missing to make these models actually understand you. And so the bet that you have to believe, which I know maybe not all of you do, is that truly AI is going to change how we interface with our computers and the things that you turn to it for.

• 58:54Speaker 07

  If you don't believe that, we're screwed. If you believe that future is going to be a reality, then I think the convenience of having it right there in your tools and files, combined with the compounding personalization that you get from that awareness.

• 59:07David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 59:07Speaker 07

  Is something that at least from talking to people outside the building, that's what that's what is on their mind right now. They're not complaining about, you know, man, when I go to Google and I click this link, this sucks. Give me a browser. That's not what's going on in the world anymore.

• 59:20David Imel?

  Yeah. Do you have like a timeline of when Dia will feel like this product that you are sort of pitching? Because I think right now, I think a lot of the backlash from ARC being, I don't know about Sunset, but maintained and Dia coming out is that

• 59:38David Imel?

  like part of the reason that people love ARC is because you built in the open.

• 59:41Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 59:41David Imel?

  Right? And now you're building Dia in the open. I think a lot of those ARC users love the browser company. So they were frustrated that ARC was being sunset and

• 59:50Speaker 07

  Not being sunset.

• 59:51David Imel?

  Not being sunset.

• 59:51Speaker 07

  Not being sunset.

• 59:52David Imel?

  Being maintained.

• 59:53Speaker 07

  Journalism.

• 59:53David Imel?

  Yep. Sorry. Being maintained. Is that the version of Dia that people have access to right now is very bare bones and doesn't necessarily meet the the more grand or ideas that you have for how you're going to interact with this AI browser? So do you have like a timeline of when people are going to be able to play with something that has those capabilities?

• 1:00:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, it obviously depends on what bits you're talking about, but I'll I'll try to answer.

• 1:00:17David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Speaker 07

  By the way, yeah, at some other point over beers, I'd love to talk about the pros and cons of building in public and being transparent in public on YouTube. But yeah, actually, when my second son was born, I like left the hospital in Paris, actually, to go get food for my wife. And someone's like, hey, ARC, I love it. I was like, whoa, this is like a new, this is not what I thought was gonna.

• 1:00:38David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Speaker 07

  But in any event, to answer your question super directly, I'd say if you're someone that tried ARC or has never tried ARC and you try Dia to get to the bar where you're like, oh, this feels better than Chrome, six weeks, you are on an old But I feel good about that. In terms of the both, I'd say grander of what I'm talking about, which again was always there with ARC. So we're going to be the Internet Computer Operating System for their web. The grander and the I'd say ARC members feeling like it has enough of the basic, you know, the things that they live the vertical sidebar. I'd say somewhere between Labor Day and Thanksgiving. But again, on the, hey, you just browse like you normally do in this like model self-personalizes to that's going to be a many, many year thing. But what we did with

• 1:01:21Speaker 07

  ARC was just like, let's be honest about where we're going and build it in public and around people like, you know, the other day, one of the things we're going to release soon in, in the kind of when we give it to ARC members very soon, is there were these college students that were hacking our personalization features to make these mini apps, like almost like AI apps. So they created the syntax where they would be like, when I do backslash gadgets, I want you to do these 17 things. And so then they'd go, they'd hit a new tab and do backslash gadgets, and then whatever they wanted to do. And they kind of like made their own little apps. And we're like, well, and multiple did for different use cases. And this goes back to the like native to

• 1:02:01Speaker 07

  the technology, native to the phone. Like, well, that's pretty wild. And so what we've been sprinting to do, you know, that we weren't going to do five weeks ago, like, man, we got to formalize this and see if we make it even easier, what other people do. And so that's all to say, part of the reason that, you know, the grander, it won't be there, you know, right away is the stuff's hard and it takes time. But part of the reason is the reason ARC is so beloved is because we were like, we have no idea what we're doing. Let's put some stuff out there, see what people do, react to it. And so we also want to have time to say, maybe the big idea here is actually AI native apps aren't going to be these agents. They're going to be these like, user created and shared little mini apps that

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  It's an idea.

• 1:02:38Speaker 07

  It's an idea. It's a definite idea.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  So that's it for now with Josh from the browser company. Really interesting to chat with him. Thanks again, Josh, for the time. And again, if you want to listen to the full, what did we chat for like an hour, an hour long conversation with Josh, stay tuned because we're going to publish that whole thing on Monday. We go in depth on some other things and talk more about Dia and the future of what Google could do to them or not do to them and why. It's fascinating. It's got us thinking about a lot of new things. Either way, back to your pod. Well, we got a little bit more after the break, but of course, before we get into that, one more trivia question.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Trivia, dude. This question comes to us from listener Rayhan. He says, "What was the first iPhone to have a gyroscope? And what was the demo that Apple used to introduce the tech?"

• 1:03:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Two points.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Two points on the board.

• 1:03:31Andrew Manganelli?

  I remember the demo.

• 1:03:32David Imel?

  The beer.

• 1:03:37David Imel?

  Do you remember the beer, huh?

• 1:03:38Andrew Manganelli?

  I just got a like reel about that the other day. That's like, what a tough day. And then his like roommate comes in and also cracks one.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Sick. Okay. Answers at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

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• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  All right, welcome back. We're going to wrap this up with our favorite end of the month monthly segment, Crown and Clown, where we will find something to agree on as the crown of the month, the best thing to happen this month, and find something to agree on that is the clown of the month, the worst thing to happen this month in the tech world. I have not brought anything to the table, so I'm open to being swayed. Let's hear what you guys have.

• 1:06:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I can go first. I don't think either of mine will be voted for.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:39Andrew Manganelli?

  But well, one, because you guys were all hyped up about a crown that's going to happen in a minute, but whatever. So my clown is there's an International Energy Agency report that found data centers made up 1.5% of global energy use in 2024.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Eight.

• 1:06:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Around the same amount of energy that the entire country of Saudi Arabia uses that we're using just for data centers, which feels poopy. I so Google's greenhouse gas emissions increased 48% since 2019. And considering they have a goal of net emissions at zero by 2030, that feels like a much tougher goal to hit now. In fact, last year, they mentioned, as we further integrate AI into our products, reducing emissions may be challenging due to the increased energy demands from the greater intensity of AI compute. Don't like that.

• 1:07:29David Imel?

  Yeah, I kind of want to look back at all the companies who promised less emissions or less carbon footprint versus the ones that are doing more AI processing.

• 1:07:40Andrew Manganelli?

  So all of them?

• 1:07:41David Imel?

  And if they, well, a lot of them are offsetting it, like OpenAI is doing a lot of the stuff that like Apple would be doing if they made their own model. So I'm curious about that. But anyway, this is your clown.

• 1:07:51Andrew Manganelli?

  This is my clown. It's just like, these data centers are gonna make like the crypto mining inefficiencies look like child's play.

• 1:07:59David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Andrew Manganelli?

  And all of that. So Gemini Gemini can tell us a gorilla is smaller than a human. Sounds useful.

• 1:08:06Speaker 05

  If you're interested in learning more, we had a whole episode with Climate Town talking about all of these zero emission stuff.

• 1:08:11David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah. True, you should like that. All right.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  Also, it's not just electricity too. It's like gargantuan amounts of

• 1:08:18David Imel?

  Water.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  fresh water, because you can't use salt water.

• 1:08:21David Imel?

  Cooling.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:08:23David Imel?

  Heck, yes.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a good one, Andrew. Yeah, I mean, this is gonna make it sound like I hate all of AI, but like, I really hate this part of AI specifically.

• 1:08:32David Imel?

  My crown is Apple having the judge lay down that sick injunction and basically like

• 1:08:41Andrew Manganelli?

  That fat beat?

• 1:08:42David Imel?

  Yeah. Tim Cook chose poorly. It was fire. So third party developers being able to now point people outside of the App Store to sign up for things and download things. And Apple not being able to have such a tight hold on the App Store monopoly. Their ruling, not mine, is I think very good for the ecosystem at large. And I think it's a really big move that we will see the repercussions of down the line. So I think that is a crown for me this month.

• 1:09:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree. I think that's a great crown.

• 1:09:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Andrew Manganelli?

  What is, you guys have?

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, my, my crown, this is big, guys.

• 1:09:21David Imel?

  Preach.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  In fact, this might be the biggest piece of tech news of the, of the decade.

• 1:09:28David Imel?

  Crown of the decade.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Crown of the century. iPhone, forget about it.

• 1:09:32David Imel?

  Hmm. Yeah, I mean.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  Android, who cares? Guys, Final Cut Pro has adjustment layers now.

• 1:09:40David Imel?

  True.

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  This is

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  I'm in for that one.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  This is unreal. I mean,

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Unreal Engine.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  It says a lot about how excited we are that this program has a 15 year olds feature, you know, and we're like, thank you, God.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  You know what's funny? I've had, Final Cut's so weird. I, I love and hate Final Cut.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Final Cut has some things that are, have just been missing or poor about it for so long. And if you ask anyone in industry, they have lots of things that they hate about it. Adjustment layer is missing this whole time. We had to find like plugins and hacks around it if we wanted to do the same sort of thing.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  That's annoying. But at the same time, there are reasons, I mean, I still use it. There are reasons why it's kind of amazing. I was just doing a clip in a video that's not up yet, but I have like my hands waving around in front of a graphic I have on screen. I did a magnetic mask and I just selected my hand and it was like, okay, I got your fingers. And I tracked, it tracked my hands perfectly for the entire clip. And literally as I was sitting watching it track, I was like, oh my God, this is the greatest masking tool I've ever made, like humanity has ever seen.

• 1:10:42David Imel?

  And it's like accelerated by, you know, metal and the apple silicon.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  It's so good. So I actively live with massive upsides and massive downsides of Final Cut Pro all the time.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like, great program, probably 50% of it is like completely broken.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  They do it their way.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  50%, that's, and also I just want to say, what was so hilarious is that the, they added like four new features in this update. And the other three are like so unbelievably stupid and useless. Like they added like the new Quantec Logic reverbs into Final Cut because you know, video editors are like, man, I just really want really nice algorithmic reverb. They added Image Playground integration.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  You know what pro users have been begging for? The best generative AI service on the planet. Over my face, video users are going to see the heinous image I made of myself with Image Playground. I don't even remember what the third one was.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Oh, the fourth one or whatever.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  So Adjustment Layers, Image Playground, Magnetic Mask Enhancements.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  What's better about? It's faster. Oh, God.

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  It's enhanced.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  It's so good. Like, that's the thing. It's like, adjustment clips, finally. Magnetic masks. Oh my God, greatest thing ever. Image playground. But like, what are you doing? Like, there was a team of people working on this? This is insane. Also, I will just throw it out there. While we're talking about Final Cut Pro, every time I've color graded for the past month, Final Cut, and I save this for the end of my edits now, Final Cut just crashes every thirty to sixty seconds. So I'll just be editing, crash, reopen, edit for thirty more seconds, crash, reopen.

• 1:12:19David Imel?

  Thirty seconds?

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Thirty seconds. I'll get three, four, five clips in, crashes, reopen.

• 1:12:24David Imel?

  How do you finish your edit?

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  I have patience. I save my color grading for the end of the process now because I know it's going to drive me insane.

• 1:12:31Andrew Manganelli?

  When I'm sitting at my desk, I'll just be like, doing whatever work, and I'll just hear, and he's usually standing, and he always puts two hands on, head down, and I'll look over, and I'll be like, you're color grading, aren't you?

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  My monitors are empty. You're like, what happened? Oh, you know what happened.

• 1:12:46David Imel?

  Premier Pro who?

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  I just thought you were stretching. I didn't realize, like-

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Every time I'm sighing and my monitors are empty, it's because Final Cut just bailed.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 1:12:54David Imel?

  Okay, does anyone else have a crown?

• 1:12:56Andrew Manganelli?

  I have a crown that's not gonna be any of it, but did you guys see some of the thing? Netflix, Tadum? Is that how you pronounce it?

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  You gotta do it correctly. Come on.

• 1:13:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Tadum.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 1:13:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Terrible name. It's not, it's not even out yet, but they showed what they're announcing, and I think this is a really hype lineup of One Piece Live Action Season Two, Stranger Things Season Five, Squid Game Season Three, Happy Gilmore Two, and a new Knives Out movie.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Happy Gilmore.

• 1:13:20Andrew Manganelli?

  New Knives Out movie?

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Starting five.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Happy Gilmore.

• 1:13:23David Imel?

  Wait, what is it called?

• 1:13:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Uh...

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Knives Out Two. Too Happy To Gilmore.

• 1:13:30David Imel?

  They already have Knives Out Two. It's called Glass Onion.

• 1:13:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. No, I just saw it in the, like, thing.

• 1:13:36David Imel?

  That's funny. Sorry.

• 1:13:38Andrew Manganelli?

  I can figure it out.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  Wow, no love for Too Happy To Gilmore. I really thought I [BLEEP] hooked on that one.

• 1:13:44David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Squid Game Season Three. So there was a Season Two that I missed, huh?

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  I was a serious.

• 1:13:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 1:13:49David Imel?

  Wait, there was already a Season Two?

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:51David Imel?

  Was it good?

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:13:52Andrew Manganelli?

  I didn't watch all of it.

• 1:13:53David Imel?

  I didn't watch the first one.

• 1:13:56Andrew Manganelli?

  The first one's very good.

• 1:13:57David Imel?

  Do I have to watch the first one to understand the second?

• 1:13:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Probably.

• 1:14:00David Imel?

  Alright.

• 1:14:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Ah, I don't know. Hold on. What's the Knives Out movie called? It is called-

• 1:14:04David Imel?

  Come on, baby.

• 1:14:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Wake Up Dead Man and Knives Out Mystery.

• 1:14:08David Imel?

  I'm so excited. They can literally just repeat this format forever and I will keep watching them.

• 1:14:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree.

• 1:14:15David Imel?

  It's so funny and good.

• 1:14:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Have you not watched any of them?

• 1:14:17Speaker 05

  No, I've seen them both and I'm the only one that thinks they're very mid. Everyone is obsessed with-

• 1:14:22David Imel?

  Knives Out one was amazing.

• 1:14:23Andrew Manganelli?

  I really liked it.

• 1:14:24Speaker 05

  Glass Onion was the only murder mystery of the past like five years.

• 1:14:28Andrew Manganelli?

  That doesn't mean it can't be amazing.

• 1:14:29David Imel?

  Yeah. Yeah. Glass Onion was still good, but less good than Knives Out.

• 1:14:33Andrew Manganelli?

  I think the first one was just like this whole new thing and like worlds that we're introduced into and it was-

• 1:14:38David Imel?

  And it was more of a twist.

• 1:14:39Andrew Manganelli?

  You haven't seen it, I'm guessing, right?

• 1:14:40David Imel?

  No, no, no. Glass Onion was more predictable.

• 1:14:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 1:14:43David Imel?

  Okay, so, that's your crown?

• 1:14:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, but I can't imagine how we're beating, uh-

• 1:14:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm gonna save mine for next month.

• 1:14:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Because I feel like you guys are so hyped about it.

• 1:14:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay. Any other clowns or clowns you want to nominate before choosing?

• 1:14:57David Imel?

  I mean, I got, well, yeah, I mean, we got an Omega Clown.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 1:15:02David Imel?

  Alright.

• 1:15:05David Imel?

  Twenty-three and me. You may remember, uh, in, in March, uh, we talked about how Twenty-three and me was going bankrupt and they were gonna have to sell all of their genetic data.

• 1:15:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Right.

• 1:15:17David Imel?

  And we made jokes about how it was definitely gonna be sold to a pharmaceutical company.

• 1:15:21Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll play the clip right now?

• 1:15:22David Imel?

  No. Adam, play the clip.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  The April Clown could be catastrophic, but-

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Here we are, in March, nothing's happened yet.

• 1:15:30Speaker 05

  It's like, you know, it's, Mark has like, you know what? It hasn't happened yet. Next one, April Clown. Um, United Health now owns Twenty-three and me.

• 1:15:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Mark has basically pushed this clown further down the line just so he could nominate the Charger EV with the sound.

• 1:15:48David Imel?

  That's true.

• 1:15:50Andrew Manganelli?

  And here we are.

• 1:15:51David Imel?

  Anyway, and so, um, that has now happened, uh, has been sold to, what was their name again?

• 1:15:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Regeneron.

• 1:15:58David Imel?

  Regeneron.

• 1:15:59Andrew Manganelli?

  For 256 million.

• 1:15:59David Imel?

  Which is similar to Pegasus, um, in name only. But- Yeah, so now my genetic data is owned by a pharmaceutical company.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  I feel like that has to be the clown.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  You did 23andMe.

• 1:16:13David Imel?

  I did it when I was optimistic about technology.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  I did ancestry, ancestry.com, so I'm not screwed yet.

• 1:16:19David Imel?

  Yes, it'll happen, don't worry.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  But it will, yeah.

• 1:16:21David Imel?

  Capitalism is not if, it's when.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  It's inevitable.

• 1:16:24David Imel?

  Mm-hmm. Capitalism comes for us all.

• 1:16:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Wow. I feel like Marcus has to vote for that, just because he pushed his vote down the line already.

• 1:16:31David Imel?

  I just think it's really funny, because we predicted it.

• 1:16:34Andrew Manganelli?

  We were one month off, but.

• 1:16:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Andrew Manganelli?

  We're counting.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  That's okay.

• 1:16:37Andrew Manganelli?

  I think your exact words were, oh, we played the clip already.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Andrew Manganelli?

  April will be catastrophic.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:16:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Could be catastrophic.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  I think we can, are we aligning on that as the clown?

• 1:16:45David Imel?

  At least for the clown.

• 1:16:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Alice has one funny one.

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  I have one more clown, but I don't think it really shapes up to a company just stabbing. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, um, so. It's also hilarious. Famous, uh, you know, so of all the companies that are sort of being like, we're not a, this company, we're actually an AI company.

• 1:17:02David Imel?

  We're a cool company.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  We just happen to do this. Uh, Klarna has been jumping on that bandwagon. Klarna is like, we're not a bank, we're not a finance company. I don't even know what fintech is. We're an AI company and we just happen to give people money.

• 1:17:15David Imel?

  And what were the AI?

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  Uh, in, well, they've recently cut their workforce by a couple thousand.

• 1:17:22David Imel?

  Fired people, that's how they're announced.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  And then the, the big clown story for them is on their most recent earnings call, instead of the CEO appearing, it was an AI avatar.

• 1:17:34David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  The CEO.

• 1:17:37David Imel?

  I saw that.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  And, uh.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  They thought that was a good idea?

• 1:17:42David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  They're an AI company, so, you know.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  To do the same thing.

• 1:17:45Andrew Manganelli?

  This is a company that you can finance your Taco Bell order, like, I don't think good ideas are flowing.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  But they're still profitable somehow, which is ludicrous. Anyway, um, Klarna, uh, you're a joke.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  Sorry, but like.

• 1:18:01David Imel?

  It's just, it's just helping younger people go into debt earlier in their life.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  It's just like, I, you know, look, I'm sure you guys are really great.

• 1:18:10David Imel?

  No.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  But it's hard to take a company that, uh, helps people finance burritos and then does corny stuff like this. It's hard to take you seriously. Good luck with the IPO.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  I can't imagine.

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  Anyway, uh, yeah, I've got a feeling, I think we have to give it to 23andMe, just, just committing it.

• 1:18:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Atrocity, frankly, an atrocity. Um, so your genetic data is now owned by Regeneron.

• 1:18:36David Imel?

  We're gonna regenerate me as a new man.

• 1:18:37Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm gonna make a suggestion to Crown and Clown.

• 1:18:40David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:18:40Andrew Manganelli?

  We should do clowns first because ending on the clown sucks way more. Like to end the episode, I'm like, oh, yes, so that's an interesting trivia.

• 1:18:49David Imel?

  So we're saying the best thing is the adjustment layer thing?

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  I think we can say the crown is final cut pro.

• 1:18:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Adding a 15 year old.

• 1:18:56David Imel?

  There's been an adjustment layer plugin for like years.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  There's also been like really good roto masking plugins for years, but Apple's is simply better.

• 1:19:04David Imel?

  How is an adjustment layer better?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Well, being built in, it potentially leaves room for it to be improved with metal and like have more optimization, et cetera. The same way I was using masking plugins, I use one called M Roto AI.

• 1:19:18David Imel?

  I remember that one.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  From Motion V FX and it was fine. It did a pretty decent job, but it being built in leaves a way higher ceiling. So it's technically the same feature, but it just works better on, on the built in side. So I just think it's gonna get better over time.

• 1:19:31David Imel?

  Better than, better than that fire injunction by the judge? Cook chose poorly?

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  I think that's, that's a bar and it's gonna live forever.

• 1:19:41David Imel?

  All right.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  But adjustment layers, oh man. The ceiling is so high for adjustment layers.

• 1:19:47David Imel?

  As long as it can stop crashing on you, then I'd agree with you.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Final cut is not the crown, but this one feature is.

• 1:19:53David Imel?

  What if the adjustment layer update is what's making it crash on you?

• 1:19:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh no, it's been crashing for years.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  It's been crashing for a while.

• 1:19:58David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  I would be willing to change my crown if, and only Adam Sandler, if you're listening. You want, you want to call them up, the movie Too Happy To Gilmore?

• 1:20:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  I'd be game.

• 1:20:11David Imel?

  That would be, that'd be worth it.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  But other than that, yeah, I think it's gotta be final cut and.

• 1:20:17Andrew Manganelli?

  23andMe.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  The, the great genetic mishap of 2025.

• 1:20:21Andrew Manganelli?

  That sounds so bad.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  What better way to kick us into trivia questions?

• 1:20:27David Imel?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and also, by the time you watch this next week, the Switch 2 will have just come out.

• 1:20:36Andrew Manganelli?

  By the time you watch the Switch 2?

• 1:20:37David Imel?

  Sorry, by the time you watch the next episode.

• 1:20:39Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, if you watch this episode next week, the Nintendo Switch 2 will have been out.

• 1:20:44David Imel?

  Also true. Ignore me. I just keep thinking about Nintendo Switch.

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  Welcome back to the Ellis Knows Ball Tech Podcast. Let's see, today's question is about Korean basketball teams with tech companies in their name. I've got three in front of me. Are they real or are they fake? More specifically, which one is fake?

• 1:21:06David Imel?

  Yep.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  With D being all of the above. This is the most backwards way.

• 1:21:09David Imel?

  Which one is real?

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  That one.

• 1:21:12David Imel?

  Yeah. Which one is real?

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  Which one? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was, which, which one is fake? No, it's which one is fake? I have it in front of me. I'm right. I wrote the question.

• 1:21:19David Imel?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  I said, which one is not real?

• 1:21:21David Imel?

  Got it.

• 1:21:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Oh. One of these is fake.

• 1:21:24David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25David Imel?

  Which one is not real?

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  Which one is not real?

• 1:21:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Which one is fake?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Andrew Manganelli?

  And D is all of them are real.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  Yes. D is, is, is, this is a truth bomb.

• 1:21:33David Imel?

  It's fake that all of them are real? Is that what it would be?

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  Hit it, Adam.

• 1:21:38David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  The Seoul Samsung Thunders. B, the Changwon LG Sakers. C, the Olsan Hyundai Mobus Phibus. Uh, that's it. Hyundai, Olsan Hyundai Mobus Phibus. Or D, they are all real KBL teams.

• 1:22:07David Imel?

  Took a stab. I knew you guys were gonna say D. And so I'll either lose a point or gain a point here.

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  Marquez, would you like to go first?

• 1:22:14David Imel?

  I think the Seoul Samsung Thunders is made up.

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  No, that is a real Korean basketball team.

• 1:22:20David Imel?

  Is it C?

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  But D.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  And you are all?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Wrong.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Correct. Those are all real Korean basketball teams.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  The worst. That, that is bad.

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  Gain my lead.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Those are bad names.

• 1:22:32Speaker 02

  Thank you, K A E Sports Talk at youtube.com for teaching me how to pronounce all of these Korean basketball team and city names.

• 1:22:42Speaker 05

  Quick update underscore. Marquez with 25. Andrew with 14. David in the lead with 29. All right. This question comes to us again from listener Rayhan. So what was the first iPhone to have a gyroscope? And what was the demo that introduced the tech? One point each.

• 1:23:07Speaker 05

  Ooh, Marquez does not know. He's stalling. Andrew staring up at the sky, praying for an answer. Demo, demo, demo. David's trying to understand how to say the word demo. Demolition.

• 1:23:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Look at this stupid demo they did back then.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  God, I don't remember the demo.

• 1:23:29Speaker 05

  And flip them and read. What do we got?

• 1:23:33Andrew Manganelli?

  If it's really the beer, I'm gonna be suicidal.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  I said iPhone 3GS.

• 1:23:39Speaker 05

  No. And what was the demo?

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  I did the beer app.

• 1:23:42Speaker 05

  The beer app?

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:44Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:23:45Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm sure. Oh, sorry.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  I said the iPhone 3GS.

• 1:23:48Speaker 05

  iPhone 3GS as well?

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Was it 3G? And I thought it was also like pouring a liquid, maybe like water or something. I don't remember.

• 1:23:56Speaker 05

  Was it the gun one?

• 1:23:58Andrew Manganelli?

  No. There's no way. It was Tim Cook onstage.

• 1:24:04Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm sure iPhone 4.

• 1:24:05Speaker 05

  4. Correct.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:24:07Speaker 05

  Whoa. And what was the? Watch out, everyone. I'm coming.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  He didn't write it down.

• 1:24:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know what the, I was like, all I can think of is like some sort of like maps or something like that.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  I'm surprised.

• 1:24:16Andrew Manganelli?

  But it's too early for maps.

• 1:24:18Speaker 05

  The demo was Jenga.

• 1:24:21David Imel?

  Didn't the iPod?

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  I want to see what this looks like.

• 1:24:24David Imel?

  Didn't the iPod Touch have a gyroscope, the first one?

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:27Andrew Manganelli?

  iPhone 4.

• 1:24:28David Imel?

  I thought the iPod Touch came out alongside the 3GS.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  It was either right after or right before.

• 1:24:34David Imel?

  It must have been before the 4, or around the 4.

• 1:24:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Maybe, but the question was, what was the first iPhone to have?

• 1:24:39David Imel?

  Actually, it was probably around the 4.

• 1:24:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, you guys said the 3GS, which does have an accelerometer, but not a multi-axis gyroscope.

• 1:24:47David Imel?

  You can see where we might have gotten that wrong, because accelerometers and gyroscopes are very easy to...

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got it wrong.

• 1:24:53David Imel?

  Similar.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:24:54David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Alright, well, congrats Andrew on the point.

• 1:24:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm coming.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  He's the comeback train, all aboard. But yeah, thank you guys for watching and for listening, and of course for subscribing as we know you are. And of course, we'll catch you guys with our next regular scheduled programming, very soon.

• 1:25:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Wash those dishes. Peace.

• 1:25:13David Imel?

  I think they've finished them by now, right?

• 1:25:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, I gotta put them all back in the sink.

• 1:25:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, our podcast is produced by Adam Malina and Ellis Ruffin. We're partnered with Vox Media Podcast Network and our soundtrack music was created by Vain Still.

• 1:25:25David Imel?

  Bingo! Let's go!

• 1:25:41David Imel?

  Wait, they added adjustment layers in Final Cut?

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:43David Imel?

  Officially?

• 1:25:45Speaker 00

  Kate holds the key to every brand asset your business has ever made. She's the only person who knows the difference between teal turquoise and the correct company blue. But she's going on vacation. Luckily, before the company falls into design disarray, you realize you can put Kate into Canva. Save every color font and logo to a brand kit everyone can access. And Kate can vacation happily in the knowledge that no one will ever use Comic Sans. What will you Canva today?

• 1:26:16Speaker 06

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. Your work lives in scattered places, and it's not only your team searching for context, your AI agents need it too. Jira taps Atlassian's teamwork graph to bring that context together. Across Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more, and makes it easy to share with the agents you already use, like Claude, Purser, and GitHub Copilot. Assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time hunting for context, less time asking, "Wait, what did we decide?" And more time actually shipping with Jira. Learn more at jira.com. That's J-I-R-A dot com.