The Science of Ethical Persuasion: Hear YES More Often with Patrick Van der

Description: What if getting more yeses had nothing to do with lying, pressure, or manipulation, and everything to do with science? In this episode of Vision Pros Live, Patrick Van der Burght, #4 ranked Cialdini Certified Trainer worldwide, founding member of the Cialdini Institute, and author of How to Hear YES More Often, breaks down the behavioral science behind ethical persuasion. From Dr. Kahneman's System 1 vs. System 2 thinking to Dr. Cialdini's 7 universal principles of influence, this conversation will change how you communicate, in sales, leadership, marketing, and even at home. Connect with Patrick Van der Burght: 🌐 Website: https://ethicalpersuasion.com.au 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-van-der-burght/ 📖 Book: How to Hear YES More Often, available on Amazon 📖 Recommended read: Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Dr. Robert Cialdini Vision Pros Live Resources: 🔥 Automate leads with AI 24/7: https://ai.firstclassbusiness.io/ 🎙️ Be a guest on VPL: https://visionproslive.com/ Timestamps: 0:00 - Patrick's vision: spreading the science of ethical persuasion 1:45 - Why most business people miss out by ignoring behavioral science 3:00 - The difference between ethical persuasion and lying or cheating 4:10 - System 1 vs. System 2: how 95% of decisions are actually made 6:00 - Dr. Cialdini's 7 principles of persuasion explained 7:17 - Social proof: why 98% of shoppers rely on online reviews 8:00 - Authority: how name-dropping a Nobel Prize winner changes minds 8:58 - Scarcity: the cookie jar experiment that proves less is more valuable 10:57 - Ethical persuasion as self-defense against manipulation 12:01 - Patrick's vision: building application skills, not just knowledge 12:48 - The forgetting curve: why you lose 90% of new info in 7 days 14:00 - Closing thoughts and how to connect with Patrick #EthicalPersuasion #VisionProsLive #PatrickVanDerBurght #Cialdini #Influence #BehavioralScience #SalesTraining #Persuasion #Leadership

• 0:00Speaker 00

  All right. Welcome into Vision Pros Live with Jackson Callum. I'm your show host. We'll be doing interviews for visionary entrepreneurs and guest leaders who are building fantastic visions out there.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Patrick Vanderburgh, tell me about your vision.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  I'm trained in behavioral science. I'm a business partner, Dr. Robert Cialdini. And therefore, I can see around, I see the world through the lens of ethical persuasion. And so I can see when people are not using the science that's available to them. And a lot of people in business don't use the science, and I find that painful to watch. It's a little bit like, you know, an architect trying to erect a skyscraper without actually knowing the science, right? The results wouldn't be very well, but in business, we're at it every single day. And I see that around me everywhere. And so I'm excited to introduce people to this concept.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  I mean, they can pick up a book or do more formal training, but either way, people ought to know that there is a science to how decisions are actually made. And so whenever we're trying to communicate and we have, you know, an agenda, there's, you know, a goal we're trying to reach and we need the cooperation of other people. And it could be sales related, but it doesn't have to be. It could be customer service, HR, PR, marketing. Could be talking to your teenage children, could be talking to your partner, your neighbors, your council. Whenever we're trying to do that, there's a science to increasing or getting the yeses that were really yours to have. But because you didn't know the science, you're not going to get there or you're going to miss out on so much. You're going to waste so much time and resources.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  And so through platforms like this, this is a great way for me to reach out to people, introduce this. And I remember when I was introduced to this and I was going through the materials and I was, are you kidding? Is this how it works? Is there's no need to lie or cheat? And so, yeah, my vision is to, you know, spread this more, make people more aware and a little community project I have actually is that I think it's great when you figure this stuff out halfway through your life, you go, oh, this is brilliant. And then you go, how much time and resources have I wasted not knowing this 20 years earlier? And with that sort of line of thought, I think this is a skill people should learn before they try and

• 2:37Speaker 01

  enter the workforce. So, you know, to introduce this to young adults as well, I think can be life changing.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Huge. Ethical persuasion, just the the essence of that sounds so important. I've got to ask you though, about something that you said, you said that, well, wait, you don't have to lie or cheat. Were you lying and cheating before you used this? Spread, share some, what do you mean by that?

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Well, I was, when I was introduced to this, you know, I guess you just sort of happens the right time, you know, the the material appears. I was a sales rep and I was working really hard to, you know, build relationship with my clients and I didn't want to lie or cheat. But it did feel like some of my colleagues were doing that to get orders signed. And so I wanted to be better. And so, you know, I needed more education, needed to learn more on how to do that, but I didn't want to lie or cheat. And so there's lots of people that, you know, act from a place of trying to do the right thing by people. There's also many

• 3:46Speaker 01

  people that our little white lie won't hurt, you know, that sort of stuff. And there is venturing into the unethical side of things. There's lots of people that are just doing great job delivering a great product or service, really care about their clients. But because they communicate in a way that, I mean, we don't have too much time to to go into this. But if we typically what happens, let me elaborate a little bit. Typically, what happens when we are using conscious thought, Professor Daniel Kahneman would say that is system two, that is our logical rational part of the brain. And when we're thinking, how am I going to convince other people? Then we tend to come up with the arguments, the reasoning that would require system two,

• 4:31Speaker 01

  the logical rational part of the brain in our audience to respond or to analyze those facts. And because of our reduction in attention span, our audience doesn't have the time for it anymore. So we actually create more uncertainty and that push back from the situation from you and your wonderful genuinely good for them, good value proposal. They decide not to decide. And so regardless of you doing a great job and being really genuine and trying to do things the right way, you can fail to communicate the facts that the audience actually wants and

• 5:10Speaker 01

  needs to hear from you in order to make an easier yes decision if it's within them. Does that make sense?

• 5:18Speaker 00

  It does. In fact, what you're talking about, I think we're in a very good

• 5:24Speaker 00

  live example of this. You mentioned, we don't have a lot of time. But the good news is neither does our audience. So let's practice what we preach, right? If we want to move in towards the ethical persuasion and that essence of influence, let's use this time to break down that science for the audience. You're I'm all ears. I'm all for it.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Okay, cool. So I've condensed way explained that there's different parts of the brain in terms of making decisions. What Professor Daniel Kahneman demonstrated was that 90% and this was in 2002, when he won a Nobel Prize for economics. He demonstrated that 90% of our decisions are actually made by system one, which is intuitive, automatic, unconscious part of the brain, as in outside of our conscious control. And what and that percentage is now set to ninety five percent and still increasing because our attention span is getting shorter. And so if we keep communicating facts that

• 6:29Speaker 01

  appeal to logic and reason, as in it's good for the environment, it gets you there faster, it saves you money, right? They're all logical rational reasons why my proposal is make good sense for you, but it's not information that allows the intuitive part, which is in charge of most of the decisions, to make those decisions. And so Dr. Cialdini's seven principles of persuasion, which we say is are universal because they work in all countries, all languages and all cultures. They qualify as that system one type of information, which are, you could say shortcuts, right? If a lot of other people are doing something, then that must be the right thing

• 7:13Speaker 01

  to do. That's the rule of social proof. It's one of the principles. And so we're familiar with that. We all know what testimonials and online reviews are, right? Ninety eight percent of online shoppers say that detailed online reviews are an important factor when deciding what and where to buy. And so most people in business are now collecting reviews, and they know how powerful that is. But there's so much more to the principle of social proof. And there's six other principles that also have dynamics like that. So if we can find the right pieces of information to bring to the surface, that helps our audience to more quickly decide,

• 7:56Speaker 01

  hey, this is probably a good decision for me, if it aligns with their values. And I can even dissect a little bit, just one minute ago, two minutes ago, I told you about Professor Daniel Kahneman, winning a Nobel Prize in economics and saying that this is how that works. By me raising that to the surface, I'm actually activating the principle of authority. Because that's another principle, we follow the advice of others who have genuinely more knowledge and wisdom on a topic. So by us saying, hey, there's this Nobel Prize winner that says, system one runs the show, that's the one that you need to move. Our subconscious goes like, wow, right? If a professor, Nobel Prize winner says that this is the way it works,

• 8:41Speaker 01

  this is what we should be doing, then we better pay attention, right? There's different principles like that.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  What's principle number seven? I see reciprocity, liking, unity, social proof, authority, consistency. I see those on the screen. Well, well done, because that trains us fast. What's number seven?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Uh, scarcity. We value things more that are less available. Uh, and all this stuff is, is of course backed by research. Um, there's one particular study which I think is entertaining and, and funny. Uh, there was a study done where they asked people to sample a cookie. And that was all the same cookie, but some people were presented with a jar that had ten of those cookies in it. And they were asked to sample one cookie. Other people were asked to take the exact same cookie from a jar that only had two of those cookies in it. Right? So they were only allowed one, but one came out of ten and one came out of two. The cookie sample that came from the jar, the jar that just had two in it.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  People experienced everything other than the flavor, the tasting of it to be better than the other group. As in, they were made with better quality, better ingredients, they were able to fetch a higher price. Right? Everything got inflated, everything got seen as more valuable, except the flavor. Because scarcity does not change our experience of it.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Interesting. Um, and it is, it is really neat that you did, you dive into the logic, even though the study kind of like almost inspires you to say, you know what? Let's just let go of the logic. Um, but there's a, you know, that, that would be the, um, unholistic version of, of moving forward in life. So I love the vision. I love the fact that you're willing and able to help people on the ethical persuasions. This is such a powerful and dynamic tool that can be used for good and for bad. Um, right? It can be used for both. Um, and so it's, it's so important that we, we keep that ethical piece front and center. I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  And there is a self-defense concept here as well, right? If we, if we are completely unaware of how this works, then we fall victim to people using this in unethical ways even more so.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Yep, exactly.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Especially with scarcity, our body reacts to scarcity news. The fact that I explained to you that, hey, when you hear that something is limited in supplies, limited in quantity, or has unique features that you can't get anywhere else, it actually changes things in your body. And the fact that you know how this works might not actually be enough for you to put the brakes on and analyze the situation more deeply. Some of it is so automatic. But we can learn more about it and start recognizing the signs that we should pay attention to, like, hey, hang on a second. Is my reaction in this situation warranted? Right? So there's also a self-defense angle to this.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And as visionaries, one of our big responsibilities is to create clarity around our visions. And so knowing how to do so, knowing the persuasion mechanisms and the influence mechanisms are really, really important to this. Patrick, what's your vision for those that you serve?

• 12:01Speaker 01

  My vision is to develop application skill in this. For a long time, we've been told that knowledge is power. And well, to be truthful, we all have a phone. We can all access search engines and AI now. And we can get an unlimited amount of wisdom on our screens immediately. But knowledge doesn't really, you know, cause any changes. It is the ability to use those skills that is powerful. And so what, I mean, my vision is for people to learn this, but actually enable, you know, to confidently identify the opportunities and use it.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  What people need to be aware of is that there's a thing called the forgetting curve. It used to be that when you got new information and there was no follow-up, it would take nine, sorry, it would take 30 days to lose 90% of the information. Now it's said that that's seven days. So when we, you know, I mean, I love giving a keynote, but. People are going to lose 90% of the information they hear within a week unless there's follow up. So, you know, to learn this, there's also more optimal ways and, and reading a book is great and you should absolutely have Dr. Cialdini's book Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion. But going through it, you'll lose so much as well. So my vision

• 13:28Speaker 01

  is to, of course, help people obtain these application skills in a more permanent way. So it's sort of part of their skill set.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  That's awesome. Well, Vision Pros, those of you out there that are looking to more clearly communicate about your vision and improve your persuasion skills and do so in ethical fashion. Well, we now have Patrick Van Der Berck on our radar. You can always reach out to him on social media and of course you can reach out to us as well to help with the process. If you feel ready to share your own vision, then in the top right corner, you'll see a button that says be our guest. You don't have to be certified in order to be the guest. You don't have to have all this, this training in order to show up. You could be brand new at getting your vision out there and we'd love to get to know you and see you on this. And of course, Robert Cialdini, Daniel Kahneman, we'd love to have you guys

• 14:18Speaker 00

  as well. And Patrick, it's been an honor and a pleasure. We'd, I'd love to have you back and dive a little bit deeper. These are, these are matters that are important for entrepreneurs to grasp. I'm a big believer that the, the most important layer of the infrastructure of any great organization is that visionary layer. And if we don't clearly communicate the visions, and a visionary doesn't know how to do that, or the organization doesn't know how to do that, then the culture is going to be lackadaisical, the leadership's going to struggle to know what to do, the marketing team is going to struggle, the sales, the support, the whole nine yards. So what you're doing is-

• 14:52Speaker 01

  And our audience loses as well, right? I mean, if even, if you're low in the hierarchy and you've got a brilliant idea and you don't know how to communicate it up the line for them to pay attention, the company also misses out. So yeah, it's an important skill.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  I love what you're up to, man. So hopefully we can get you back here and dive a little bit deeper. And thanks so much for planting the seeds with us today. Vision Pros, we'll see you guys in the next episode. Take care, everybody. Thank you for being here today. I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. I'm looking forward to seeing your reaction- As these episodes continue to move forward, this is going to get more and more fun. We'll have more and more engagement as well. We'll invite people to participate in the show. And thank you for giving us your time and attention. Have an excellent time building out your vision and becoming a vision pro yourself.