What's good sound?

Every hand-crafted instrument from violin maker Michael Doran holds its own unexplainable questions. Guest: Michael Doran of Doran’s Violin’s For show transcripts, go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/unxtranscripts⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠For more, go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/unexplainable⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And please email us! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ We read every email. Support Unexplainable (and get ad-free episodes) by becoming a Vox Member today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/members⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:42Speaker 02

  This is Unexplainable. I'm Meredith Hodnot. We love hearing from listeners. We read every email you send, and we especially love hearing from listeners that have really cool jobs. Could you read the email that you sent in?

• 2:01Speaker 03

  Sure. Yeah, let me just pull it up. Hello, unexplainable. I'm a violin maker, and I really enjoyed your recent episode on A440 and the journey that it's been to get there.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Michael Doran makes violins and cellos in Seattle, and he wrote in to share his perspective on our episode last September called "What's A?" All about the musical note A and the long and windy road to standardize it around the world at 440 Hz. Instrument makers were on the front lines of that international coordination. And even today, Michael wrote in to us to say that he still thinks about different tunings in his work.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  One of the interesting aspects that comes up in my work is that some symphonies, notably San Francisco and Boston, are tuning to a sharper A. Then sometimes the solist will turn, you know, 1 Hz sharper to get a little extra power and projection over the orchestra. I made a cello for the principal of the BSO, and I had to make sure it sounded good at A444 or even 445. He wanted higher tension strings as well, so all that adds up to more stress on the instrument. But it really is amazing just how a tiny bit sharper can give a lot more projection and brilliance. And it's an interesting puzzle for makers. Lastly, I do my best to protect my hearing, but I do have occasional short-term tinnitus where things will go quiet,

• 3:25Speaker 03

  and I'll hear a pure tone in one ear for a few moments. And the one in my right ear is a perfect A440, and the left ear is slightly sharp, maybe more like A442. Cheers, Michael Doran.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for reading that.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  You're welcome. And I did fact-check myself, and I called the principal of the Boston Symphony. And I was like, "Do you guys really tune to 444?" And he was like, "No, we tune to 441." And I was like, "Do you ever tune, like when you're soloing, do you tune to, you know, 1 Hz higher to get an edge?" And he's like, "I don't need an edge."

• 4:06Speaker 03

  So that's wrong. I did think about it when I made the cello. That's true, but it's not true that they actually tuned to 444. I read that Berlin Symphony turns to 442, but that's the sharpest I could find. So 441 is pretty standard.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Got it. But the 444 is like pushing it.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Super pushing it, yeah. Although I did have one of my local violinists come in. I actually had their like best buddies. They often come in together, Andrew and Max. And Andrew is like a 440 purist. He loves the 440 and he thinks you should just play at 440. And then Max is a 443 guy and he calls it a happy A. Like, like you tune just, just a little bit more. And he loves that A443. And it was so fascinating to have both their violins in the shop at the same time. And one's tuned to 440 and one was tuned to 443. And just the like tiny difference in the sound. Max's violin just sounded so much more like direct

• 5:05Speaker 03

  and focused and, and kind of like, like edgy. It almost made me like just a little bit uncomfortable to listen to. And then the 440, you play it and you're just like, oh, it's just kind of size. You can kind of sink into that A440. So it's, it's just very interesting how these teeny changes make, make such a difference.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like it's so subtle. It's almost subliminal.

• 5:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just, it's just interesting because they're such different players too. Andrew is, he has sort of a more delicate touch, a lighter touch with the bow. Not that he can't play forcefully, but that's just not his like default. And I feel like Max just almost, he attacks the violin with his bow. And he can play softly too, but just in general, he likes, he likes sort of a heavier bow hand and, and more movement.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  And then Max just got these super duper fancy, literal gold strings. They just came out and they're like super expensive and they're wrapped in actual gold and whatever. Fun. But gold is heavy and tends to give sort of a warmer sort of a sound. So he's got this like edgy playing style, but then he wants the slightly warmer strings. And you know, maybe in the end, do they get to the same spot? Like we've got, we've got a delicate player playing with edgy strings and a, and a edgy player playing with warm strings. So like, maybe we're getting to the same point in the end.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  When you hear these notes, what are the different ways that you're interpreting the vibes of these different tunings?

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. It's, it's totally like a vibes thing. It almost feels like, like a presence in the notes, something around the edges. Cause it's, it's still an A, right? Like it's, it's close enough that like you would, you would call it an A. But it's just, just a little bit juiced, a little bit, almost like anxious.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Something like that. And the, the 440 feels sort of like a little more spread out, a little more relaxed. It breathes a little more.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  I wonder what, I don't know. I've never, I never hear a 439. So like, I wonder if that's even more relaxed.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  It's interesting too, cause like when you're talking about these numbers, right? The, the 440, the 439, the 444, it's like literally how much energy is going into that note?

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, totally. So 440 is 440 cycles per second. So like literally the, the wave that is traveling through the air is literally oscillating back and forth 440 times a second.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  And so there's a way in which it has a sharper energy, because it's literally sharper, when it's moving through the air, because those little waves are, are smaller as they, as they get to your ear.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  And then, I mean, you know, on top of all this, like there's the pure tone, the A440, right? Violins are so neat because they play all of these notes around the primary note.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  We don't always want everything to be as efficient as possible, because then it sort of turns into, you know, this pure sine wave kind of a thing, right? Like, I don't actually want all of the energy to go into making that pure tone. I need some of it to go into the overtones and the notes around the note. And that's where you think about, like, tone colors? Like, that's how violinists talk about, like, you know, a sweet tone or a piercing tone. And you should be able, with the same instrument, to mold the sound to do both those things, depending on what passage you're playing and what the player wants.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Like, sometimes you need a great, you know, emphasis staccato and maximum fortissimo, right? And then sometimes you need the instrument to just sort of like, speak with like minimal bow pressure and just lightness. And that's part of what makes violins sound so complex and interesting. It's actually quite close to the sound of the human voice. We make all kinds of overtones and things. That's why each singer's voice is distinct and different. And you can, you know, easily tell the difference between my voice and your voice, or Beyoncé's voice, or whomever.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Speaking for yourself, I sound exactly like Beyoncé.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  Well, I wasn't gonna say it, but, you know, it's uncanny. It's amazing. It's the same way with violins. And so, all of those little overtones are changed when you change the primary frequency. So, I think a lot about, you know, when I'm doing adjusting. Like, there's high notes, high upper partials to the note in the like 18,000 hertz, 20,000 hertz, like, just on the edge of what humans can hear.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  And that can also influence this presence. So I feel like when you're tuning higher, maybe it changes some of those partials and things that just kind of influence how you feel about the sound.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Right, right. That makes a lot of sense. I come from a cooking background, so like, the analogy that's coming to mind is like, you can use vanilla extract, or it's just the pure vanillin, which is the chemical that tastes like vanilla, or you could get this tropical orchid pod that came from Madagascar and got fermented and dried in the sun and has all these other overtone chemicals that round out the taste and make it something much beyond that one primary note.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely. That is, that's a great metaphor because, you know, you get this, you get this beautiful sort of combination of all of the different vibrations that are vibrating with the room and the air and the bow and the violinist and everything that gets to your ear. It's incredibly complex.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  I mean, like violins are, are one of the most complex vibrating machines that humans have ever made. I feel like after 400 years, we're like, just now, starting to get an understanding of how these things actually work, how they, how they radiate sound, how they vibrate at different frequencies. I mean, it's, it's astoundingly complex, which is what keeps it interesting for me as a maker, right? There's, there's a mountaintop in the distance, but you can never quite reach it because, you know, every piece of wood is different and every player is different and every interpretation of sound is different. So you have this wonderful range of what is a good sound. And I mean, that's what we're talking about here with A440.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  As a violin maker, do you have any unexplainables, any unanswered questions that remain a mystery in the world of, of instrument making?

• 12:08Speaker 03

  Oh my goodness. I mean, like, like so many, so many.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Nothing but questions.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Like, I mean, that's kind of my job, right? The, the real problem with the experiment of violin making from like a scientific point of view is that There are so many variables. You change one thing and it changes five others.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  It's so hard to get like an actual control on the things that you're trying to test. And you can never have the same piece of wood twice. So every piece of wood, even if it's from the same tree, is a little bit different. And so my job as a maker is to take the materials that I have and what I want to make, the sound that I'm going for, and somehow find the narrow path in between those two things to get to it.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  But like, we're just nailing down some of those basic questions like, what is nice sound? And like, how do you feel about it? And you know, what are we even going for here? And so in my job, it's like, if I do this, what happens?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  I think of it more like in my job, I'm like, I like can push the sound sort of one way, or I can push the sound another way. And with every choice, I'm sort of guessing that it's gonna do a little bit more towards this side of things, a little bit more towards that side of things.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Like, there's this dowel, a post. In Italian, the word for sound post means like soul of the instrument. Because it's so important, this skinny little dowel. Exactly where that post is, to the tenth of a millimeter, is so important for the sound. It's not glued in or anything, it's just fit perfectly.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Tap the sound post back, you know, a tenth of a millimeter. Does that change the sound? Do we like what's going on? You know, does it emphasize the G string more, the A string more? And tap, tap, tap. It's like playing the game Operation. And then, oh, maybe we need a post that's two tenths of a millimeter longer. Let's try that.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  What are some of the choices that you have to make, like right at the outset, as you're envisioning the future sound?

• 14:15Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Sort of generally, I try and think about making something sort of like brighter and more powerful and projecting versus sort of warmer and like more chocolatey and perhaps a little bit more intimate.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  And... That's sort of the broad palette that I think about, right? And how do we, how do we balance the two? How do we get both ideally? Getting both of those things is like, that's like the mountain.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  You know, something that is so sweet and rich and gorgeous, but then you can also, it's very loud and you can hear it at the, at the edge of the hall when you want it to be loud. And you know, that's sort of like the, that's the mountaintop that we're going for, right?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. Is there a Doran violin or a Doran cello sound?

• 15:05Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, probably. I mean, I like to think of my instruments as siblings, not twins, right? Like no two are exactly the same. But I was at a violin making competition.

• 15:20Speaker 03

  They judge the instruments for like three or four days. And during that time, nobody can interact with the judges or see the instruments because it's all done, you know, blinded. So it's a lot of waiting around and being slightly anxious in a hotel room. And at the end of the competition, they open up this enormous ballroom where all the instruments are. And there were about 500 instruments in there. You know, 200 violins and 100 cellos and 100 violas. And so players come in and makers come in and they can, you can look at all the instruments and you can play them if you want. So it's just a cacophonous set. People playing a hundred different pieces in, you know, all the corners of the room.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  But several times I would be talking to somebody and my back would be turned to the cello section and I would hear a cello and I would say, oh, that's my cello. I can tell that's my cello. And I'd look around and somebody would have been playing my cello.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  So can I recognize my instruments? I think maybe. I mean, you know, we'd have to do an actual study to, to check that out. But at least in those instances I did and I was able to pick it out.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Wow. Wow, that's so cool. I was wondering, could you take me on a little tour of your, your studio if you're nearby?

• 16:37Speaker 03

  Oh, sure. Yeah. Oh, that would be, I would love to. Can I warn you that it's a mess?

• 16:44Speaker 02

  No worries, no worries.

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• 20:22Speaker 03

  The elves workshop? That's a front!

• 20:26Speaker 03

  Okay, so, um, let's see. Here is the studio. It's a one-car garage that we turned into my studio. But, uh, you know, there's this smell to the shop. It's kind of a mixture of like wood and varnish and possibility and, you know, the machines and the music and it all just kind of like rolls together. People who come into the shop are often like, "Oh, I love that smell. That's the smell of the workshop." And, um, yeah, I love that. That's one of the things I love about the job.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  And I mean, you're like, starting off with wood that I'd recognize in a fireplace. It looks like a chunk of wood. It doesn't look like a two-by-four at Lowe's.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, totally. That's how the wood comes to me. It often comes in these wedges, and then I take away everything that isn't a violin. A la Michelangelo, right?

• 21:31Speaker 03

  If it's a big spruce tree, could make a couple hundred violin tops, easily. Like, I've thought about this, you know, in my lifetime, I would be very lucky if I made 400 instruments, you know? Uh, maybe less. 500 would be pushing it. I mean, there's no way. And so, like, the output, my output of my whole life, my whole career as being a professional violin maker, could potentially be covered by like, one tree. If you had the entire tree, you could make all the instruments for your career.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  A lifetime's worth of instruments, yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, so. But I don't often get to buy the entire tree.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Let's see. I have over here all of my old vintage power tools. I bought all the power tools in my shop are restored antiques that I like to take apart and fix and tinker with.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  What's your favorite tool of the moment?

• 22:38Speaker 03

  Oh, favorite tool? Oh, man, you're killing me.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  I know, choosing between your children.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  Favorite tool, favorite tool, favorite tool. Um, okay, okay, I got it, yeah, yeah. So, um, hold on, I gotta move some stuff out of the way. So, let's see. Let's put this there. So, we have here, um, my... It's one of my favorite tools, and it's also a very iconic violin maker tool. It's called a finger plane. And so, uh, so a plane holds a blade at a specific angle, and you push it, and it shaves the wood a little bit, right? And so, there's big bench planes that make things flat that you use with two hands.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  And then, as they get smaller and smaller and smaller, you start to call them palm planes or block planes, right?

• 23:36Speaker 03

  And then they get even smaller and they're called thumb planes, right? And then you get even smaller and they're called finger planes.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  And they're like the iconic violin maker tool. So I have large finger planes.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Like this.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  So it almost looks like a little shoe.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  But like you put your finger in there and then you can like push to shave just a little bit off?

• 23:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. And the neat thing about these sort of little shoes, they fit your hand very well. And the soles of these are very, very slightly rounded. So I can carve into an instrument and make that sort of hollow, right? Because the outside is a convex curve and the inside is a concave curve, right? So I can thickness that very precisely. And so these are the, these are the big ones. It's, I guess it's about two inches, two inches long, something like that with a three quarter inch wide blade. And then I have the little, the little teeny, teeny, teeny ones that are about an inch long. And maybe a quarter inch, quarter inch wide. For, this is mostly for violins for, you know, a little you get right there in by the, by the channel or something like that.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  You went from like small child shoe size to like doll shoe size.

• 24:47Speaker 03

  Doll shoe size, exactly. But I have all different sizes. I have about 20 of these. And the neat thing about these is that I made them. So they're a very like personal thing to me. They're like a part of my making that I'm the only one who has this exact set of tools. And the shape that I carve with these tools is kind of endemic to these tools and my hands and how they work. And, you know, I've adjusted the soles a little bit over the years. So it's like this plane is shaped so that it cuts the shape that I want with my hands. It's a very, it's a very like personal, personal part of the, of the work is, is how you get that, how you get that line, letting the tool do the work, right?

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Right, right. But then almost it's like your fingerprints on it because you know exactly what those tools are and they're unique to you.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Someday, you know, probably my son will, will use it and he'll make his own, his own fingerprints on it someday.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  And how much time do you spend in your, in your studio here?

• 25:57Speaker 03

  In the shop? Oh my goodness.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  All of it.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  I mean, like, every moment I can, basically.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  When, when I'm not hanging out with my son or my family, like, you know, this is what I love to do. Like, if tomorrow I got all the money in the world and I didn't have to work anymore, I would still show up to work here every day, absolutely. Because this is what I love to do. It's, I can't imagine doing anything else. That's why, that's why I'm here, to, you know, climb the mountain a little bit.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  What you're hearing right now is a Michael Doran cello, played by Minzho Kim.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  If you want to learn more about A440 and the road it took to get there, please listen to our great episode, "What's A?" by Emily Siner. And when you listen to it, or any other of our episodes, we want to hear from you. Like I said, just always, but especially if you have a cool job out there that has something to do with an unexplainable episode, let us know. We're at [email protected]. This episode was produced by me, Meredith Hadenot. We had editing from Joanna Salatarov, with help from Sally Helm. Mixing and sound design from Erica Wong, and music from Erica and Ilian Menzel.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Melissa Hirsch, Check the Facts, Julia Longoria and Jorge Just are our editorial directors. Christian Nialla and Amy Padula are the sharpest days around. And as always, thank you to Brian Resnick for co-creating the show with Noam Hassenfeld and Bird Pinkerton. If you'd like to support this show and the journalism that Vox does, we would love it if you'd become a member. It's easy to do. Just go to vox.com/members and you'll get access to all of Vox's journalism. If you sign up because you love Unexplainable, let us know. We, again, love to hear from you. Thank you so much. If you love the show,

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