Pod Insights Unexplainable This episode is haunted and spooky About this episode Now why would you click on something like this? What's wrong with you?! Why are you — and so many other people — into scary stuff? Two scientists are trying to find out. (Originally aired in 2024)
Guests: Mathias Clasen and Marc Andersen, co-directors of the Recreational Fear Lab at Aarhus University
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Transcript 0:01 Speaker 00 Support for the show comes from TikTok. If you listen to this show, you probably enjoy discovering new things. It is built into the DNA of the show that curiosity is its own reward and that there's always a deeper dive to do. And one place to explore some of the topics we've covered here is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
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1:30 Speaker 00 Mattias Clausen spends a lot of his time thinking about terrifying things.
1:35 Speaker 02 I have a fondness for scary books. I really liked that experience of being really messed up by letters on a page. And I remember being really interested in scary stuff as a teenager, but also being puzzled at why.
1:53 Speaker 03 Because I would read a Stephen King novel or watch a slash a movie and then feel compelled to sleep with the lights on for several nights. And found myself asking, what the hell? What's going on here? What's going on when people voluntarily seek out things that frighten them?
2:09 Speaker 00 It's kind of weird if you think about it from an evolutionary standpoint, right? Like, running away from scary stuff makes sense. We're probably more likely to survive if we skedaddle when we're spooked by something. But why do we also then run towards scary things sometimes? Like, why do we pay good money to go to a movie theater and freak out? It is this paradox of horror that fascinated Matthias.
2:39 Speaker 00 He wound up studying horror for a living. He joined the English department at Aarhus University in Denmark, but also looked at other disciplines to try and understand his subject matter better. And that is where Mark Anderson winds up coming in. About a decade ago, Mark was doing his PhD at Aarhus University as well, studying cognitive science and religion.
3:02 Speaker 03 And Matthias was this weird dude who came to our department and presented on, you know, all this weird horror stuff that he was very interested in.
3:11 Speaker 00 Talking about his questions, like,
3:13 Speaker 03 Why is it that humans are attracted to experiences that at their core are negative? Why is it that we like stuff that we don't like?
3:24 Speaker 00 Now, Mark does not really experience this contradiction firsthand.
3:28 Speaker 03 I'm not really that much into horror. I don't like it very much. It's mostly Matthias that likes it. And he's the sort of stone cold person in the room. I'm a much more timid kind of guy.
3:42 Speaker 00 But he was still really intrigued by the weird paradox of horror that Matthias was talking about. And so this scientist, who does not really love horror, and this literature professor, who loves it quite a lot, ended up starting a cross-disciplinary quest to explore horror together.
4:02 Speaker 03 I think that's one key to our success is we have these nicely overlapping domains of expertise. You know, Mark is really good at designing experiments and doing statistical analysis. And I like Stephen King novels.
4:19 Speaker 00 Matias and Mark are now co-directors of an entire lab devoted to studying this thing that they call recreational fear.
4:26 Speaker 02 We see it everywhere. It's little kids enjoying peekaboo. It's teenagers liking scary movies. It's middle-aged people going on dark tourism or getting on roller coasters. But at the same time, it's sort of scientifically understudied or even ignored. So there was something there that mandated serious scientific study. Plus, we were having a hell of a lot of fun doing it.
4:53 Speaker 00 So, this is Unexplainable. I'm Bert Pinkerton, and today on the show, a hell of a lot of fun with a paradox of horror.
5:17 Speaker 00 Mark and Matias and some of their colleagues, they decided to explore some basic aspects of the relationship between fear and fun. They wanted to understand what was going on in people's heads and bodies when they were spooking themselves. And to do that, they went to a haunted house.
5:37 Speaker 02 Dystopia Haunted House is an old abandoned fish factory lying in the midst of the woods. The factory consists of about 50 rooms, and so guests buy a ticket. They walk through the 50 rooms where they're chased by, you know, pig men with chainsaws and killer clowns and zombies and so on.
6:01 Speaker 00 Mark, do you enjoy this house?
6:03 Speaker 03 From the outside, very much. Yes. I have been forced into the haunted house, I think, three times by now, and, I mean, it is getting easier each time.
6:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, I remember once, we were in the haunt with a collaborator, and we kept yelling at each other, you know, "You go first, you're the postdoc." "No, you go first, you're the PI."
6:26 Speaker 02 All in a relatively good spirit. We made it through. It was a fun bonding experience. But it could have gone the other way, you know. One of us could have pushed the other in front of the guy with the chainsaw, which might have ended the collaboration right there and then.
6:41 Speaker 03 I'll just add that that is exactly what Matias did to me, who was the postdoc back then, by the way.
6:49 Speaker 00 This may not seem like a great place to do serious science, but Matthias and Mark thought it actually might be kind of ideal. Because in this setting, they could study people who were really freaked out. After all, in a lab setting, there's only so much you can do to scare the bejesus out of people before you start crossing some ethical lines, right? But if someone shows up at an abandoned fish factory, literally looking to be scared, that is their choice.
7:20 Speaker 02 So it's a ridiculously chaotic context in which to try to do any kind of controlled, systematic, scientific investigation. They're trying to mount a surveillance camera, and then some clown, a literal clown actor, will come and throw fake blood on us.
7:39 Speaker 03 But in a way, this kind of horror house is much more well-calibrated to investigate the kind of phenomena that we are really interested in deep down.
7:49 Speaker 02 The kind of insight we can get into recreational fear, it's just, it's out of this world.
7:54 Speaker 00 Take this one study, for example, that gave Matthias and Mark and their colleagues a really key set of insights into how fear and fun might be connected. In the study, they asked a bunch of participants to fill out a questionnaire before they went through the haunted house, they hooked them up to a heart rate monitor, filmed them during some of the house's biggest jump scares, and then surveyed them again right after they left the house. All of this to kind of get a sense of both how scared they'd been, but also how much they had enjoyed themselves. And they found that the relationship between self-reported fear and self-reported fun in the surveys had this kind of upside-down U-shape.
8:37 Speaker 03 You can think of it as sort of the Goldilocks principle of horror, right? That too little fear is not that enjoyable when you are in a haunted attraction, but a lot of fear is actually not that enjoyable as well. There seems to be sort of a middle way where participants report the highest levels of enjoyment.
8:59 Speaker 00 And this pattern showed up in their other measurements, too. Like, some of the data from the heart rate monitors, again, showed that the people who enjoyed themselves the most tended to be the people whose hearts were behaving a little differently from their usual, but not enormously so.
9:15 Speaker 03 So it is as if humans dislike being very far from their normal physical state, but we seem to like being a little bit out of our comfort zone, or a little bit out of our normal state.
9:33 Speaker 00 Studies like this have fed into a hypothesis that Marc and Matthias have developed about the potential purpose for recreational fear, like, why we might seek it out. And the deeper that they have gone into their research, the more they've started to feel this nagging sense that something is terribly, terribly wrong. Like, now that they've unlocked this awful secret, they will never be able to lock it away ever again.
10:05 Speaker 00 I'm just kidding. Their research has not led to anything deeply horrifying, but it has given them a window into how we might be facing our fears. So more on that after the break.
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11:44 Speaker 00 Support for the show comes from TikTok. Being curious is endlessly rewarding. There are few better feelings, in my opinion, than asking a question and then having that question lead you down a rabbit hole. Might even be the beginning of a new set of interests that was not on your radar beforehand. Maybe you're looking up at the night sky one night and you start to wonder what the most distant thing you can see with a naked eye is. One place to start searching for answers to a question like that is TikTok. First, you might discover a video about the Andromeda Galaxy. And then, next thing you know, you're learning how to find different stars, or how to identify constellations,
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13:39 Speaker 05 In a horror story, there are only victims and monsters. And the trick is not to end up as either.
13:46 Speaker 00 So in their haunted house study, Mark and Matias saw this kind of U-shaped relationship between fear and fun. Basically, too much or too little fear, not that fun. Somewhere in the middle, this kind of like sweet spot of fear, very fun. And they were seeing the same pattern in other research, too.
14:04 Speaker 03 We know from studies on curiosity that humans get curious about things where they expect a moderate surprise. They are not really curious about things where they know that their predictions are going to be way off. They are typically interested in things that lie a little bit outside of their normal knowledge.
14:26 Speaker 00 So that same kind of Goldilocks effect, where something that's just the right amount out of your comfort zone is the most interesting or the most fun. And seeing these similarities between curiosity on the one hand and fear for fun on the other, it led Mark and Matias to their hypothesis, which is, maybe, when people seek out a little fun fear, they're actually trying to learn through play, like trying to teach their bodies how to handle fear.
15:01 Speaker 03 It's about learning how your, you know, your body reacts, for instance, when you become scared. We know from other studies in cognitive science that the brain has a tendency of suppressing input that it can predict. So if you have tried something several times, then oftentimes, that experience feels less intensive. So one of the main hypotheses that we have is that recreational fear exposure allows you to learn about fear and handle it in a sort of more optimal way, you could say.
15:36 Speaker 00 Unfortunately, Matias and Mark's lab got a great opportunity to explore this idea further.
15:43 Speaker 03 During the COVID pandemic, where the whole world closed down and we were all, you know, deadly scared of what this virus was, no one knew at the time.
15:54 Speaker 00 I remember this vaguely.
15:56 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:58 Speaker 03 And so one really surprising thing that happened was that the horror box office exploded. And so people became really, really interested in watching horror movies all of a sudden.
16:11 Speaker 02 A British science journalist who had written about some of my work years ago, in which, you know, I told her that I thought horror might help us prepare for a dangerous world. She tweeted me and asked me if I thought that horror movie fans were doing a better job of keeping their stress levels down during the pandemic.
16:30 Speaker 00 Matias and some of his colleagues wound up running a study to investigate this question, to see if people who watched a lot of scary movies exhibited fewer symptoms of psychological distress in those early scary days of lockdown. Now, because it was the middle of the pandemic, they couldn't go out into the field for this.
16:49 Speaker 02 So we distributed questionnaires, looking at people's symptoms of mental distress, getting a personality profile, and also getting a measure of how often they watch disaster movies, prepper movies, that sort of thing.
17:04 Speaker 00 And when they went through the results, they found that people who watched a lot of scary movies reported, at least, feeling less psychological distress. And people who watched a lot of prepper movies, they said that they felt better prepared.
17:18 Speaker 02 They had lived through similar scenarios in their imagination hundreds of times. So for them, you know, it wasn't just science fiction in an abstract sense. They felt like that they'd sort of been there before.
17:35 Speaker 00 Anecdotally, these results fit in with their own experiences. Because Matias, the horror fan, he was not super phased by the pandemic.
17:43 Speaker 02 I was sort of cool with it, you know.
17:45 Speaker 00 Mark, by contrast.
17:46 Speaker 03 I was not cool with it at all. I remember, I remember, you know, the first days where I would like disinfect Amazon packages. So I'd have them rest three days and I'll shit before I'd dare to touch them.
18:02 Speaker 00 Now, to be clear, their study results were all self-reported stuff, right? And also, as Matthias told me...
18:08 Speaker 02 This is all correlational. We can't say, based on this study, that watching a scary movie makes you better at keeping your stress levels down during a pandemic.
18:18 Speaker 00 So maybe the kind of person who likes scary movies is just less likely to get stressed out in the first place. But they're excited to continue exploring this question. Mark says they want to do a longitudinal study with randomized control groups to see if exposing people to some kind of recreational fear does actually bring their stress level down over time. And they also want to see if this hypothesis could be applied to help kids who've gotten treatment for anxiety disorders.
18:49 Speaker 03 We would like to sort of enroll them, if they would like, in sort of a bravery module or whatever, inviting them to the roller coaster theme park, having them enroll in a climbing course, maybe seeing some scary movies.
19:03 Speaker 00 Not like, seriously freak some anxious kids out, but let them have a little bit of fun with their fear. Matthias and Mark want to know if that would actually help these kids learn how to deal with anxiety better. Like, could you do roller coaster therapy, essentially? Could we fight fear with fear?
19:25 Speaker 00 So basically, right now, Matthias and Mark have a lot of cool, exciting questions about why we seek out fear for fun, and not that many perfect, complete answers. Like, they're still a long way from solving the paradox of horror. One thing they do feel pretty confident about, though, is that these questions are worth exploring. Like, there is something both really fascinating and kind of important at the heart of our obsession with horror.
19:57 Speaker 02 I mean, it seems to be the case that stories and fiction are vital instruments for navigating the world, for humans. You know, we rely on the imagination. The imagination might be our coolest asset. We can use our uniquely evolved imaginations to run through scenarios, to imagine different states of affairs, and to prepare.
20:23 Speaker 00 If you want to read more about the research that Mark and Mathias and their various colleagues have done, please look up the Recreational Fear Lab from Arhuz University in Denmark. They have got papers about Stephen King and The Exorcist and Peekaboo in Daycares. It's like, great Halloween reading all around. In the meantime, this episode was produced by me, Byrd Pinkerton, and edited by Meredith Hadnath, who also runs the show. Noam Hassenfeld is our host and does the music. Christian Ayala did the mixing and the sound design. Anuk Dusso did our fact checking. Manding Nguyen is the fact that ostriches can run as fast as horses. Jorge Just is a gem of a human. And we are
21:07 Speaker 00 always, always, always grateful to Brian Resnick for co-founding this show. Thanks also to John Kleinhill and Coleman Lowes for their help with this episode. If you have questions about this episode, or thoughts, or just like spooky vibes, I don't know, please send them to us. We are at [email protected] . You can also support this show and all of Vox's journalism by joining our membership program today or any other day. It would be very, very appreciated. That's at box.com/members, box.com/members to sign up. You can also support the show by leaving us a nice rating or a review. So
21:48 Speaker 00 many options, maybe do one of them. But no matter what, Unexplainable is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and we will be back on Wednesday.
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