Sean tries raw milk

Sean Rameswaram, co-host of Today, Explained, recently went on a dairy adventure. Noam talks to Sean about what he learned, and about why raw milk is gaining popularity, even though there are significant health risks. Guest: Sean Rameswaram, co-host of Today, Explained For show transcripts, go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/unxtranscripts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ For more, go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/unexplainable⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And please email us! ⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠ We read every email. Support Unexplainable (and get ad-free episodes) by becoming a Vox Member today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/members⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:49Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies. 18 plus.

• 1:16Noam Hassenfeld?

  Sean, hello.

• 1:17Speaker 03

  Yo, Noam.

• 1:18Noam Hassenfeld?

  Hello.

• 1:19Speaker 03

  Yoam.

• 1:20Noam Hassenfeld?

  It's been a while.

• 1:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, we used to work together on Today Explained.

• 1:24Noam Hassenfeld?

  It was a great time, so much that I still listen to every episode of Today Explained.

• 1:29Speaker 03

  Much love, much love.

• 1:30Noam Hassenfeld?

  And I heard this episode that you guys did recently that I loved about raw milk.

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I drank some raw milk.

• 1:41Noam Hassenfeld?

  And you went to a farm, I hear?

• 1:43Speaker 03

  I went to a farm to do it, yeah.

• 1:45Noam Hassenfeld?

  How did it go?

• 1:46Speaker 03

  I'm still alive. Look at me.

• 1:48Noam Hassenfeld?

  Yeah, okay. What is going on with raw milk right now? Why is everyone talking about raw milk?

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Well, no, um, you know, it's been happening for a while. People probably know that someone who drinks raw milk, whatever it might be. But we thought, let's take a look at this because once RFK enters the White House and becomes Secretary of Health and Human Services, all of a sudden, you've got him doing like a shot of raw milk at the White House.

• 2:13Noam Hassenfeld?

  Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  They're not pushing it so hard. They're really getting on like the whole milk train. But there are dozens of pieces of legislation throughout the country currently making their way through state legislatures that seek to make it easier to sell and/or drink raw milk.

• 2:29Noam Hassenfeld?

  What do you think surprised you the most from hanging out with the farmers and tasting the milk?

• 2:34Speaker 03

  I think what's most interesting about this is if you talk to some people about raw milk, they want to condemn you for even considering the idea that you would drink non-pasteurized milk, which is essentially what we're talking about.

• 2:50Noam Hassenfeld?

  Right.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  But what's funny about it in this particular moment we're in is that you can go to like a trendy grocery store in LA and just buy some raw milk, you know? It's like to some people, it's tantamount to being anti-vax. And yet, in California, you can go to the grocery store and buy some raw milk. So this is one of those issues, like many issues in this country, that is incredibly divisive. And yet also that some parts of this country have just kind of moved right past and have accepted it to their lives.

• 3:21Noam Hassenfeld?

  You know, it's interesting that you bring up the anti-vax conversation. Because I do feel like conversations around raw milk tend to mirror some of the conversations I've had about vaccines where like people are just like, oh, why should I go get this vaccine? There's no measles around. Or, I mean, I mean, there kind of is measles more now. But I do think that people often forget how many people used to die from things like the measles and polio and all sorts of preventable diseases, like vaccines have saved at least 100 million lives. And something I learned from your episode is that before pasteurization,

• 4:03Noam Hassenfeld?

  you know, milk could lead to these tuberculosis outbreaks and typhoid outbreaks.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:09Noam Hassenfeld?

  Tens of thousands of people, mostly children, used to die from drinking milk.

• 4:16Noam Hassenfeld?

  Do you think people just don't remember what things used to be like? Or they don't want to think about what things used to be like? And they're just taking for granted all of these incredible scientific achievements we've had to get us to the place where we are now?

• 4:29Speaker 03

  It's very clear that we've firmly entered the I'll do my own research era, the anti-establishment, anti-convention, anti-big pharma, whatever it might be. And for a multitude of reasons that I don't want to dunk on necessarily. Some of it's silly, but some of it's not. I mean, I think that's what Maha has really suggested that, well, he kind of has a point about food dies. Sure, maybe, yeah, why not? You know, does he have a point about vaccines? Less so, it seems.

• 4:59Noam Hassenfeld?

  Less of a point.

• 4:59Speaker 03

  But, but people want to figure out their own path. And with raw milk especially, what you see is a lot of people drink it and they don't die, so they trust it, you know? And I think we have a problem with anecdotal experience in this country with distrust of big ag, big pharma, big everything. And that's sometimes leading people to make some unfortunate choices.

• 5:25Noam Hassenfeld?

  And I mean, a distrust also of scientific institutions that are saying what is safe and what isn't safe. And a reliance on your friend telling you what's safe.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  Yes. Does that mean you should never, ever, ever drink raw milk if you're at some beautiful farm in the south of France and a farmer says, here's a milkshake we just made fresh for you because you're from America and you like that kind of thing? Like, no, it's probably fine. It's probably fine.

• 5:49Noam Hassenfeld?

  That feels to me like he's trying to poison you somehow.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  Oh, maybe so. Right, right, right. Anyway, that doesn't mean we should just, you know, make it easier for the entire country to drink raw milk or just remove all the guardrails.

• 6:05Noam Hassenfeld?

  Well, it's a very interesting discussion. Your episode is great. I love the way that you talk to people on all parts of this issue. So we're going to play it for our listeners. Do you want to tee it up? Anything they need to know before you hit play?

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Today Explained from Vox, wherever you listen.

• 6:22Noam Hassenfeld?

  Hit play.

• 6:27Speaker 03

  Today explained from Vox. Sean Ramisferim here at the historic Old Town Farmer's Market in Alexandria, Virginia. On a quest to find something that is not totally legal here across these United States, raw milk. Mom, have you ever seen raw milk here at this market?

• 6:42Speaker 04

  No.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Have you ever seen it anywhere?

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Yes, in California and in Sri Lanka.

• 6:47Speaker 03

  You drank raw milk in Sri Lanka?

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Yes, from the day I was born till I left Sri Lanka.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  So you're not impressed with my search for raw milk?

• 6:54Speaker 04

  No. Not at all.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  Okay, Mom's not impressed, but I'm still looking for raw milk because more and more people are drinking it and something like 18 states are currently trying to make it easier to drink right now. Let me see if I can find some. Sir, do you know where I can find raw milk? I don't. I don't. Not here. Nobody is that stupid here. Okay, so my farmer's market thing was a bit of a bust, but we're not giving up. We're moving on to Google and we're gonna find that raw milk on the show today. Okay, Mom, we weren't able to find any raw milk at the farmer's market in Alexandria,

• 7:41Speaker 03

  Virginia, but I think we might be able to find some out here in Glen Arm, Maryland, about 20 miles northwest of Baltimore. Are you ready?

• 7:53Speaker 04

  Yes, I'm excited.

• 7:55Speaker 03

  All right, that's the spirit.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Let me kick this off more formally. So we are standing here in a field in Glen Arm, Maryland. And your name, sir?

• 8:09Speaker 05

  My name is Matt Prigle.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  And we're here with?

• 8:11Speaker 05

  Bobby Prigle.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Are you guys related?

• 8:13Speaker 05

  Yes, I'm his youngest son.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  Very nice, okay. And we are at the Prigle Creamery.

• 8:20Speaker 05

  Yep, Prigle Creamery, also Prigle Farm. My great-great-grandfather got the property we're on now in 1895.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  Amazing. And has it always been dairy, or?

• 8:32Speaker 05

  Back then, historically, farms did a little bit of everything. And then over the time and generations, it's consolidated to now it's a dairy farm. The dairy is our bread and butter. And then we also are registered to sell raw milk in the state of Maryland as a pet food. So we do offer raw milk for cats and dogs.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Interesting, but not for humans?

• 8:51Speaker 05

  It's illegal to sell milk in Maryland for human consumption.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Okay. So how big is your raw milk for pet purposes in terms of your business?

• 9:02Speaker 05

  So the, the milk for cats and dogs, week to week, is roughly the same or more in sales at the Creamery than the past rise milk.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Wow. So a lot of people want this milk for their cats and dogs?

• 9:17Speaker 05

  Sounds like it, yeah.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  Is there like a bit of a wigging situation here?

• 9:21Speaker 05

  Nope. No winking, no, nothing.

• 9:24Speaker 03

  They're not buying it for their cats and dogs and they're drinking it themselves?

• 9:26Speaker 05

  Pet food, what they do with it when they leave the store, you know, I can't control that. It's up to them.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  But it's possible.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, I didn't think it's possible. People were eating Thai pods not that long ago.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Have you seen an uptick in interest in raw milk here at the Creamery?

• 9:42Speaker 05

  Uh, I would say it's been steady for the past couple of years.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. There's some cows trying to do, oh, wow. Wow. That wasn't just an attempt at fornication, but also a bowel movement.

• 9:58Speaker 05

  They, they have a couple of party tricks. If you stick around long enough, you'll see some stuff.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  Sorry, I got, I got distracted. We were at, uh, oh, there's been an uptick in interest.

• 10:08Speaker 05

  I think the interest has been kind of the same. Um, as far as like what goes on with, with our store. But as far as, you know, like the nation in general, I think there's been a big movement and big change in interest. You know, our, our government currently, there's a lot of hype and push about it. Social media, there's a lot of information coming out about it. That we did last year.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  Uh, not right now.

• 10:30Speaker 05

  I think we've grown exponentially.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  Whoa, we've got some father-son disagreement here. Sounds like you're maybe looking at those numbers a little more closely. And what are you seeing?

• 10:39Speaker 05

  I think people are more interested that they're reading more about it, hearing more about it and have interest.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  You mentioned some, some political trends that have perhaps, you know, facilitated more interest in raw milk. Are you talking about the federal government?

• 10:54Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 10:55Speaker 03

  That Maha business and all that?

• 10:56Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, people should just have get to choose, right? I mean, you go to the grocery store, you get to pick all you want. Um, if you want to have raw milk, you should be able to go get that.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Do you drink raw milk?

• 11:06Speaker 05

  Every day.

• 11:07Speaker 03

  Really? Wow. And you, sir?

• 11:09Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 11:10Speaker 05

  If our kids drank raw milk, I wouldn't drink anything else.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  You wouldn't drink anything else?

• 11:14Speaker 05

  I have an option of drinking raw milk or pasteurized milk in the same refrigerator. I pull raw milk every day.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  Are you guys like glass of milk guys? Are you talking about like with your cereal or what?

• 11:23Speaker 05

  I had a glass of milk with my steak last night. I had it in my coffee this morning.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  With your dinner?

• 11:28Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 03

  Now, I'm not going to be offended by your answers to this question, but I want you to guess what kind of milk I drink.

• 11:34Speaker 05

  Oat milk.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  Which isn't milk, by the way.

• 11:41Speaker 05

  It's oat oil.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  Oat oil, oat juice. I'm laughing because you guessed correctly in one guess.

• 11:47Speaker 05

  Well, there's nothing wrong. I don't care. Like if you want, by all means, drink as much as you want, but it's not milk because milk by definition has to come from a mammal's mammary glands and it doesn't. It's, it's pressed and secreted oils and water that gets diluted and flavored down so you can actually drink it.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  I will say, unlike the other soy boys who come to visit you guys, I, uh, I kind of have some lactose issues. So my, my drinking of oat milk, you know, it's a nice, um, alternative for those of us who, who get some, some stomach issues when we drink milk. Of course, the reason most of us don't drink raw milk in this country is because many, many decades ago, we discovered that through pasteurization, we could avoid a whole host of, of diseases that were killing kids, including salmonella, listeria, tuberculosis, it turns out, E. coli. There's a lot of questions now about bird flu in the raw milk. Your thoughts?

• 12:44Speaker 05

  So historically, the biggest problem, like you said, many, many decades ago, it was 100 years ago. And people had this idea that nothing's changed in the past 100 years with the agricultural practices around. So historically, so what happened was grains and distilling became really big in the 1920s, right? So all the distilleries were in the city and they were bringing in weed in and barley and oats and everything and doing all the distilling process. And they had all these leftover grains and didn't know what to do with them. And they said, well, let's feed it to cows. All the dairy farms are out in the country. Why are we shipping everything in? Why don't we just bring the dairy into the city next to the distillery? And we'll just go from one building to the next and give it to them.

• 13:27Speaker 05

  Well, the problem was, one, no nutritional value left in the grains that the cows were eating. The cows were kept indoors, which is ripe for sanitation issues. Also in that era, there was no closed systems. There was poor refrigeration as well. And over time, now, our milk, we like to see it around 36 degrees.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 13:48Speaker 05

  And then we have a closed milking system, right? So the milk never actually touches the air until it's getting bottled or you open the cap for the first time.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  Do you guys ever have people show up here who are curious about raw milk for their pets or maybe for another purpose? Who, who talk about those anxieties around, you know, Listeria, salmonella, anything like that? And then have questions for you guys?

• 14:12Speaker 05

  So Listeria is a groundwater issue. And we get tested very, well, the health department comes out once a year and tests our groundwater. So that gets tested on a periodic basis. And then the biggest concern that people have with raw milk is E. coli. And the problem with the feal eye is you have thousands of cows in one spot. It's very easy for it to transmit. So when it goes to slaughter, one bad cow can get everywhere just by hands moving. We're a single herd. These are all of our cows. No one touches it but us. And it goes from here.

• 14:48Speaker 03

  To the processor and then onto our shelves. You would tell someone who showed up here with some anxieties over raw milk not to worry about it.

• 14:56Speaker 06

  I would never tell them that.

• 14:59Speaker 06

  If I lived in Pennsylvania, I could give you a whole lot of different answers.

• 15:01Speaker 03

  Aha.

• 15:02Speaker 06

  But if they're worried or concerned, I would tell them not to drink it.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  There's always a chance.

• 15:07Speaker 06

  I wouldn't buy raw milk for me to consume where my family if I wasn't able to visit the farm and see how the practices are. And if you can't visit the farm, I wouldn't drink their milk.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  Okay, and obviously that's not how most Americans consume their food.

• 15:22Speaker 05

  Correct. I think if you're buying raw milk, it should come from your state and it should come from your farmer. I think you should find your farmer.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  And you should keep it there.

• 15:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't think milk from California should come in to the East Coast. The amount of time it takes in transportation, there's too many variables where things can go wrong. It needs to be a hyperlocal product.

• 15:40Speaker 03

  Now, if I were to ask about trying some raw milk, how does that work in the state of Maryland?

• 15:46Speaker 05

  Uh, would I have to recommend you don't because it's not pasteurized and maybe, maybe contains some harmful bacteria?

• 15:54Speaker 03

  Now, I can't buy some to try right now to say I lived a little bit while I was out here, but I could buy some for my mom's dog.

• 16:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, milk for catching dogs, yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  So maybe I could buy some of that. Now, if I were to drink some of that, that's my business.

• 16:07Speaker 05

  I recommend you don't though.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Got it, but you do.

• 16:11Speaker 05

  I drink raw milk every day.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  And when was the last time it made you sick?

• 16:15Speaker 05

  I have never been sick that I'm aware of from consuming it. I rarely ever get sick to begin with.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  Well, I'm gonna buy some. And what I do with it

• 16:27Speaker 06

  Is your business.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  Is my business. And on this Memorial Day, there's something beautiful about that.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  Well, thank you and happy Memorial Day to you guys.

• 16:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, you as well.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  It looks like you're working through it.

• 16:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, cows always gotta be milked.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 16:41Speaker 05

  Work never ends.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  That's right. They don't know it's Memorial Day.

• 16:43Speaker 05

  They don't care.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  I'm shaking the raw milk and then I'm trying the raw milk. Here we go, opening the raw milk.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  Oh, wow, yeah. Smelling the raw milk?

• 17:02Speaker 03

  What does it smell like? It doesn't smell like anything. Let me shake it one more time, just to be extra sure, you know?

• 17:09Speaker 03

  Okay. Here we go. Wish me luck.

• 17:16Speaker 03

  Tastes like milk. How you doing? Do you want to try it? One sip. One sip? All right, mom's trying the raw milk. Here we go. What do you think? If nobody told you, you wouldn't know. If nobody told you, you wouldn't know? Yeah. I think that's true. Unless I get salmonella later. You won't. Mom says I won't.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  It's two days later now and I didn't, but my tummy did feel a little funny that Memorial Day night, if I'm being completely honest. But as I said, I got some lactose issues, so it's still oat oil for me. When we're back on Today Explained, we're going to hear about the movement raw milk's having, not just in Glendale, Maryland, but across the country.

• 18:18Speaker 03

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  All right, one of life's great mysteries. You're listening to music in the living room, but you got to grab something from the kitchen. You don't want to take the speaker with you, but you also don't want to miss that beat drop. And this is where I introduce you to the magic of Sonos. Sonos sent me a couple of speakers to try out, so I've got to move to here in the living room. And then I walk down the hall.

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  I can open the fridge, grab a seltzer.

• 19:07Noam Hassenfeld?

  And yeah, I didn't miss a second. And I can make each speaker louder or softer in the Sonos app, or if I'm using AirPlay, so I can make it louder in the kitchen without blasting whoever is still in the living room. It's all just easy and it sounds amazing. These speakers are crisp, they've got great bass, and I'm especially impressed with the new Sonos Play. It packs this truly awesome sound in a much smaller size. So I don't know, if I want to head outside for a minute. It's super easy and yeah, pretty nice out. Visit sonos.com and build your system.

• 19:50Noam Hassenfeld?

  Sonos, love the sound, feel the system.

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• 21:23Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  We got circulate this home radio.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  All right.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  What do we circulate?

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Looking for a man who has recently drunk milk.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  My name is Anna Merlin, and I'm a senior reporter at Mother Jones covering disinformation, extremism, and technology.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  I guess if you've hung around on either side of the ideological spectrum for the past decade or two, you've probably heard someone talking about raw milk. For me, I've heard lefty crunchy people talking about raw milk personally. But raw milk is having a moment right now in these United States. We are not united on raw milk. What is going on with raw milk?

• 22:32Speaker 00

  There is definitely an increasing interest in raw milk, especially the idea of increased raw milk legalization and selling raw milk across state lines, which I think even under the second Trump administration and RFK is not super likely. The FDA has enforced their ban on the interstate sale of raw milk since the 1980s. But there is a bill out there in committee right now. And there's also tons of bills at the state level to continue making raw milk even more accessible in various states. There are 40-plus bills across 18 states that have to do with raw dairy, raw cheese.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Oklahoma just passed one. Congratulations, Oklahoma. We are one step closer to food freedom. Raw milk is now legal. To advertise and sell up to 1,500 gallons. So this is super awesome for Oklahomans. Raw milk is legal to some degree in 43 states, but it varies really widely. So in some places like California where I live, you can go to the store and buy raw milk. In other places, you can access it through what's called a herd share, which is a legal agreement where consumers have access to a milking animal or a herd, and they can buy or get the milk directly from the farmer.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  In other places, raw milk is only legal as pet food. But, you know, obviously, there's nothing stopping people, if they really insist on it, from buying and drinking milk labeled as pet food.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  I bought and drank some pet food raw milk yesterday, Anna.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Yes, I imagine you did, because you're in DC.

• 24:18Speaker 03

  That's right. I had to go to Maryland to do it, though, yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, so DC is one of the places where raw milk is illegal. Rhode Island, I believe it is totally illegal, except I think you can get raw goat milk with a prescription from a doctor. It's also illegal in Hawaii. But yeah, most places in the US, you're going to be able to get raw milk in some form.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  Remind us why we decided to pasteurize our milk? Or what the benefits were?

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Right, so one of the first kind of big pushes for pasteurization of milk came in the 1930s after the discovery that raw milk could transmit tuberculosis, which was killing a lot of babies.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  Pasteurized milk, a safe food, trusted by millions of people and important in every diet. Let's go back to middle school for a quick refresher on pasteurization. It's a centuries-old process that heats up milk to kill off bacteria like Salmonella, Listeria, or E. coli, then cools it back down.

• 25:16Speaker 00

  By heating raw milk to at least 161 Fahrenheit for 15 seconds and letting it cool, we can reduce the amount of viruses and bacteria in dairy. And so there was a pretty direct relationship between more and more places requiring pasteurization and infant mortality rates going down. And so after that, it was pretty clear to most people and most public health bodies that this was a good idea.

• 25:37Speaker 03

  Okay, so there are some clear risks here before pasteurization came around. And then they were saying, basically, "Pasteurize your milk, warm it up a little bit, and we will keep more kids alive."

• 25:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  And then, since that, you know, medical breakthrough, basically, we've been trying to dial it back. Why are we trying to dial it back? And who's doing the dialing?

• 25:59Speaker 00

  So, pretty much since pasteurization became a widespread thing, there has been opposition to it.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  And the raw milk movement has always argued that raw milk is better for you, that it's more natural. It's actually healing and very beneficial for your body. Raw milk will not spoil like conventional milk does. For instance, when I talked to Mark McAfee, who's the founder and CEO of Raw Farm, the biggest raw milk producer in the country, he told me that raw milk makes asthma go away, which is not true. According to public health experts, virologists, asthma experts, you will see arguments that raw milk is good for allergies, it has beneficial enzymes or bacteria. And this is pretty much the argument that's been made since the raw milk movement sort of organized and took force,

• 26:49Speaker 00

  is this idea that raw milk inherently has nutrients and good qualities that are stripped from pasteurized milk.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  And these groups that are advocating for more raw milk, do they necessarily hew to like a certain political party?

• 27:02Speaker 00

  I think that historically, raw milk, like anti-vaccine ideas, kind of cut equally across the right and the left. You know, I grew up in a pretty blue part of New Mexico and would certainly see raw milk being sold and discussed, though not the way that it is now. But definitely, you know, a lot of the places that you're seeing raw milk legislation, especially picking up are red states because of ideas around government regulation and health freedom.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  And like, of course, red state, blue state, you know, crunchy or libertarian, distrustful of government, wherever it might be, you might find some affinity in our current Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.,

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  who last year famously did a shot of raw milk at the White House.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  He sure did.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  Want to do a shot of raw milk to toast this with me? All right, Secretary Kennedy, cheers.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  He did a little shooter of raw milk to celebrate the publication of the Maha Report, which was meant to be his big kind of capstone piece of writing presenting solutions for chronic disease and was full of AI slop and fake citations, in which you will notice they don't talk about very much anymore.

• 28:16Speaker 03

  Did that quash his attempt to normalize raw milk at the federal level?

• 28:21Speaker 00

  So this is what's super interesting.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Before Kennedy was in office as HHS Secretary, he was famously really bullish on raw milk. Since I was here last year, I only drank raw milk. He had this famous tweet in 2024 where he talked about all the things that the FDA was going to stop suppressing under his leadership. You know, he said, "The FDA's war on public health is about to end." And he listed all these things, including raw milk. But since then, much to the frustration of big players in the raw milk industry, there actually hasn't been any federal action to make raw milk more illegal or to make it legal across state lines. Kennedy actually hasn't done anything on that. And Mark McAfee told me that he can't get Kennedy to like return his calls.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Huh.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  One thing that has happened instead, though, is that the Trump administration has suddenly been trumpeting their emphasis on whole milk. Right? You might have seen this a few months ago. They were saying, you know, "We're bringing whole milk back to the schools." So today, I'm delighted to sign the Whole Milk for Healthy Kids Act into law. Whole milk is no longer illegal in America, which it never, never was.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  It's like the war on Christmas.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And he's also ended the war on saturated fat. So yeah, a lot of their language around whole milk really echoes kind of the language around. Raw milk that you see among raw milk advocates, but it's not. They actually have not talked about raw milk at all. So you can speculate, you know, why this might have happened, if this is a liability issue, if there are still people at the CDC and the FDA who are like, it would be a really bad idea for the federal government to promote this. But yeah, I would say that for raw milk and raw dairy advocates, the fact that the Trump administration has not been on their side is clearly a big disappointment.

• 30:15Speaker 03

  Well, anecdotal, Anna, but the creamery I visited yesterday, Pregel, out in Glenarm, Maryland, they said raw milk was a big boon to their business. I mean, even though they only sell it for cats and dogs, it certainly seems like people are drinking it. Are public health officials, other than the Secretary of Health and Human Services, worried about that trend, if there is one?

• 30:40Speaker 00

  So earlier this year, an infant died in New Mexico from listeria that public health officials there think was probably linked to the infant's mom drinking it during pregnancy. And there have been, you know, a bunch of foodborne illness outbreaks. So yeah, I think this is a concern for people because raw milk can carry E. coli, Salmonella, Campylobacter, things that can make you really, really sick. So there are concerns here, right? One, obviously, is the increasing availability of raw milk in various places. Another concern is that it is being marketed by health influencers and other people with big social media followings as like a miracle cure in a very simplistic way.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  And it is especially being marketed to parents as a cure-all for children, which is concerning because raw milk and dairy are especially risky for infants, immune-compromised people, and elderly people. You know, an illness like E. coli that could be, you know, serious, but you would make it through potentially as an adult, is incredibly serious for a child and can lead to this thing called hemolytic uremic syndrome, which has sickened and killed children. The raw milk industry tends To talk about this idea that raw milk is safe if you trust your farmer. But when you talk to like a virologist, they will tell you that no matter how well you know your farmer, how much you think you trust the dairy, if you're not pasteurizing

• 32:08Speaker 00

  your milk, you're going to be at more risk of common foodborne pathogens. So, you know, you can find the farm to be delightful in every way, and it will not prevent you from illness. You know, ideally, we would not be continuing to litigate like really well-established pieces of science, and we could move on to other stuff. But instead, we are, you know, talking about raw milk again and whether it's a good idea.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  So I take it despite it being available at, say, the grocery store around the corner from you, you, Anna Merlin, are not going out to buy any?

• 32:45Speaker 00

  You know, I grew up partly on a ranch, and I have actually seen cows before, and I know how they're shaped, and I know where the udder is compared to, for instance, the cow's asshole. So no, I am personally not going to drink raw milk. If your listeners want to look at the FDA or the CDC, there's a page on the FDA right now at the moment called "Raw Milk Misconceptions and the Danger of Raw Milk Consumption." And you can read a lot about the counterarguments to these common claims that people make about raw milk. For instance, that it contains, you know, beneficial bacteria or enzymes or something. Like, there's very, very good evidence about raw milk's actual dangers and risks.

• 33:33Speaker 03

  Anna Merlin, motherjones.com. Shoutouts to my mother for making the time. Shoutouts to Avi Shai Artse for making today's show with help from Amina Al-Sadi, David Tadashor, Bridgette Donegan, and Gabriel Dunatov. It's Today Explained.

• 34:10Speaker 06

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