Uncapped #30 | Alex Pall from The Chainsmokers

Alex Pall is half of the Grammy Award-winning duo The Chainsmokers. Beyond music, Alex is entrepreneur and co-founder of Mantis VC, a venture firm that invests opportunistically in early stage tech-enabled startups. Some of their investments include Alchemy, Chainguard, Kalshi, Roblox, and Rogo. We had a wide ranging conversation that broke down the creative stories behind a few of their top hits including “Closer,” “Something Just Like This,” and “Don’t Let Me Down.” We also explored the creative process at the highest level and how Alex’s experience in music influences the way he approaches venture investing. --- Timestamps: (0:00) Intro (1:04) Stories behind the songs (4:58) Coldplay collaboration (9:57) Creating Closer (13:25) Dependencies vs creative fuel (18:09) Letting songs be promiscuous (19:45) How “Don’t Let Me Down” happened (22:57) Art vs playing the favorites (26:18) Balancing music and business (29:49) Albums telling stories (35:42) Tension behind growth as an artist (39:28) Inspiration drives creativity (41:20) AIs impact on music (44:34) Outlier talent (47:22) Building a venture firm (54:46) Experiencing elite circles (1:01:17) Importance of momentum --- More on Alex: https://www.mantisvc.com/ https://x.com/AlexPallNY More on Jack: https://www.altcap.com/ https://x.com/jaltma --- https://linktr.ee/uncappedpod Email: [email protected]

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Let me start with like a story Jim Buffett told us and we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in like the business side of his empire, which was like Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life and he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are like for my fans. So if you're like 80 years old, but you don't want to, you want to, you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home, you want to go to the Margaritaville Experience Retirement Home. Like I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side,

• 0:39Speaker 00

  the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently, things that made us successful in, in music.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Alex, I am incredibly excited to be here with you today. I've been looking forward to this and know you're really busy and I, you're juggling two whole businesses, which I'm excited to talk to you about. So thank you for making time for this.

• 0:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is stoked. I'm a big, big fan. I was saying earlier, I've listened to literally every episode except for the last one yet.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Means a lot. I, um, I want to start with music and I love music. I'm obviously like mega amateur about it, but I've been a huge fan of your music for a long time. And I always think it's really interesting to learn about the creation of songs. I like love watching some of my like favorite artists talk on YouTube about like how songs came together.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  And so I want to just like go through a couple of like my favorite songs.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Hear about like.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  By the way, I, we just did like a photo shoot yesterday and with this amazing creative director, Aiden, and he's shot like so many of like the creative campaigns around like all of these artists that, you know, I'm a huge fan of and, you know, fashion stuff. And it's so funny talking to him because he gives you this like, they give you like this unfiltered perspective where you're like, wow, that photo turned out really good. And you're like, there was a zebra on set, you know what I mean? And the zebra almost killed Travis Scott. And then you're like, whoa, like you should start a show that just talks about this.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  It's so foreign to people. I mean, like, cause you know, you hear a song that's like, just like a premium song and you're just like, how the hell does this happen? Like, what really goes into it? And for most people, you just don't even understand what the process is.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  And I don't think there's like a single song in existence that doesn't have like an insane story. Even if it starts out in one day and it's done in one day, there's like eight months that, you know, preceded that are like.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Which actually makes you wonder, like, on that point, before we go into songs, like, can you create a great song formulaically? Or does it like, does it need a story?

• 2:24Speaker 00

  I don't know if it needs like a story all the time. Sometimes like, like lately, Joe and I have just making, been making songs. We're just like, I love this. This just feels good. I don't like, I'm not thinking about, you know, the narrative of the song so much or the context. It's just like, I love these lyrics. I love what, how they feel to me, but it's not like rooted in some like personal story necessarily. But I do think like the creative process is not ever formulaic, you know, like the songs never start in the same place or the same way. I think there's like creative things you can keep in mind, like how you go into a session and the best ways that you feel like you can get to some level creativity. But like, I know we talked about this before, uh, at some, some point, but like, you know, doing the Chris Martin song, like I remember him coming in. And he was literally like.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Telling us about this.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, something just like this. And he was telling us about, you know, his creative process. And he was literally just kind of like, they're just sent down.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Like from above. And we were like, I remember sitting there being like, what is this dude talking about? Like, we're like, we just, no, it doesn't. We like, we spend time in the studio and we like get the songs done. And then now like, you know, whatever, five years later.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  We're like, he was totally right.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I love Chris Martin. I mean, I think, I think, I think Chris Martin, I think he's like a real artist.

• 3:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Coldplay is obviously like this, on some level, it's like this mass produced, like for everybody thing, but he's a real artist.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  No, I think they're one of the greatest, you know, bands ever. Uh, you know, obviously getting to know him and the band and understanding like how they operate and work. I mean, it's like nothing short of, you know, like pure, you know, magic and the respect they have and, you know, i- i- i- the music obviously kind of speaks for itself. But like, there's so many things that go into consideration when Chris and the band like move forward with the song.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  I went to a Coldplay concert recently, like a couple of months ago. And I hadn't been to one since I was like 17, you know, like in high school in St. Louis. And I like, it was awesome then. And it was like fricking awesome now.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  And I was just like, you know, the whole place is. Vibing.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Dude, it's insane.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Your, your song comes on, you know, something just like this gets played there.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Stadium's going nuts. I don't know if you've been to a Coldplay concert where you've seen this happen?

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  And you're just like, this is cool.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  It's so cool. Uh, and I'm always like, Chris, why can't we go on stage? Yeah, we love to be up there.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Why can't you get up there?

• 4:35Speaker 00

  But, uh, I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's always, we, I think he's offered in the past and it's like, we had our own show somewhere else and stuff. And I think now he's just like, we're just gonna do it without you guys.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  He's like, we're good at it.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're good, which is totally fine. And like, I love when, you know, they're on tour. I get videos like every day from somebody, you know, being like, here's your song being played. And it's just like, that's the coolest, you know, thing. It's like, hey, I'm sleeping and someone else is doing the work. It's a great, that's why collaborations are awesome.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  So how'd that song happen?

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Um, okay. So there's like a few things, parts to it. So, you know, we've been fans of Coldplay forever. I think most electronic artists would say that like a Coldplay collaboration is like top three. Art, you know, artists they would want to work with for so many reasons, because their music kind of lends itself to this like electronic energy. Uh, his vocals are obviously just incredible and the band's just iconic. And so, you know, they were always on our like, hey, you know, they, everyone want to get in the studio? We're so down. And they were like, not down, you know, down, I think for most of the time. And then our, our manager had reached out and I think they were like, yeah, we'll float it to Chris or something. But then I think before a show one day, they were like, listening to Closer backstage and Chris, I don't know, or the band was like, this is good.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  You know, this is interesting. Like I would get, I'm down to get in the studio. I don't think they realized we were already asked. And so like last, you know, literally get a call from their manager, Dave, I'm not sure if he still works for them. And it was just like, Chris is gonna be in, you know, LA. Uh, next Tuesday or something like wants to get in the studio. The guy's down and we were like, I will drop. Just you will find it in Antarctica. That's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio. Uh, I think it's called the Woodshed in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio. Way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in, you know, got there at like 3pm or something like that. And I think we sat there for like two hours alone with his like audio engineer, but we were, and we're just kind of like waiting. We're like, I don't even want to touch anything. What do we do? Should we start working our own stuff? Should we like get ahead of this song?

• 6:23Speaker 00

  And then he just walks in and it's like, you know, there's only a few people on the planet that I feel like would like have that gravity when they walk in and he just like comes in. Like a tornado of energy and and just was like, hey, guys, you know, what are you working on? Never break up. This is how, you know, and you're just like, hold, Mike.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is insane. And funny enough, like, we sat there probably for like four hours, you know, trying different things out, kind of like false starts. I think that's like a big part of the

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Like the three of you, basically?

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's three of us and then his sound engineer, who's like, I think, been with him, Bill, who's been with him forever. Shout to Bill.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Probably amazing.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's a great guy. And he just like, I think, again, it's like, sometimes being in the studio is like having a presence without like interrupting anything. And Bill is great at that. And, uh, and, you know, we're just like throwing chords out and lyrics out and different little ideas and nothing's really sticking. You know, it's like, we kind of like get started on a melody and it's like, ah, you know, like, let's move on. And then eventually he's like, I gotta go put my kids to sleep, you know, and we're like, that's it. You know what I mean? And you're like, we're done here. Like, he's not gonna come back. And that sucks. You know, that was our shot at a Coldplay song. And so he leaves, leaves for like three hours. And but he's told us he would come back. And we're just kind of like, is he gonna come back?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  He's hanging out there.

• 7:34Speaker 00

  And we were going through like stuff, like we gotta find something or do something that like when he comes back. And we found these like chords that became something just like this. And we were like, this feels interesting in the context of like what a Coldplay Shane Smoker song might sound like. And he finally comes back.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Hopefully, this segment right now will play that, just like

• 7:52Speaker 00

  It's just the piano, like the, and

• 7:54Speaker 01

  It's so good.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  It's, I mean, it's, it was like not complex by any stretch. And Chris comes back and he's like, you kind of feel like he's also like, we gotta get something, you know what I mean? And we play him these chords and he's like, that's good. I like that. He just was like, give me a mic. Literally like grabs a mic and dances around what like would be the size of this backyard.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Really? He's dancing, you guys are just together, he's dancing?

• 8:15Speaker 00

  I'm, we're sitting there like, almost like the energy's like, don't move. You know what I mean? Like, like, it's like, if we move, we're gonna disturb what's happening right now. And he literally like lays down like what is probably like 80% of the core of the song.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  And the lyrics come to him just naturally?

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Literally, he's just like, you know, stumbling, like, you know, over each lyric. And then just like progressively, it's just pouring out of him and probably in like an hour. And he and and we're just like, holy shit.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  We have a Coldplay song and we were all like so jacked up.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Could you have given him that beat before you had met him? Or did you need that session with him to get that sort of like, you know, that progression?

• 8:56Speaker 00

  I think we needed that session. I know there's plenty of collaborations that happen, you know, over email and digitally. And I don't think that's like, you can't not have success that way. But I think like, you know, he wanted to get to know who we were. We wanted to get to know who he was. I mean, for us, just getting in the studio with him and being a part of that was like one of my life's greatest moments. And I think like, it was important to like, understand what he wanted to like sing about, like what thematically like stuff was speaking to him, you know? Like, and so, you know, we could have sent him 40 beats, but like, would he actually listen to them? Would he like have the had the intention and focused as he went through them? And I think like the energy in the room had like built up over the course of this day where there was like pressure,

• 9:40Speaker 00

  but like also this like expectation where we were just like, we're gonna get, you know, it's like kind of like willing it.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Into existence. So, you know, I think we always try to get in the rooms with people, but like you also can get in the rooms with people and recognize quickly that it's like, this is not meant to be. So it's scary in that way.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. You mentioned Closer during that, which is another really great collaboration. How'd that one happen?

• 10:01Speaker 00

  That one's a really crazy one. Um, so we were in tour in Illinois on our friend zone tour, which was like one of our first bus tours ever.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is when like 20.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  This is probably like 2015 or something like that. And on this tour, there's this great artist who's still around, Louis the Child. And after every show, we had set up like a really shitty, uh, production room in the back of our tour bus. So we'd be like kind of drunk and tipsy or whatever. And we'd like go, you know, what, after the show, everyone would like pile into the bus and kind of like blast music and dance. And in the back, people were always like, we'd be like writing songs, producing things. And we hadn't really like, Louis the Child was on like three or four shows with us and we were big fans of theirs. And we were like, let's, you know, let's get in the back and then like work on something. And Drew had a, you know, like essentially like this song had been like. Floating around in his head for like two or three years. He had these chords that his hands, you know, as he would say, like always just landed on the piano.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  And I think any piano player says that like you kind of like, there's just like certain chords or hands is like gravitate to where you sit down. And they were the closer chords and he kind of had this like loose idea of lyrically of a song. But like didn't really have functionally have like any idea of how to like build it out into like the full track that you know it is today. And so, you know, in this back of this bus, I'm like, you know, at like 2am, Lewis Child and all of us are just kind of like jamming and they came up with like a lot of like some of the electronic line because it was much more like, I don't want to say acoustic, but like ballady at this point in time. And and they were really good at kind of this like, I don't know, like bouncy electro style. And and and like a bunch of the song, like I would say like half the song kind of came out in the back of that bus.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  And we were all like, this is cool. Like, I really like this, but like tipsy, late. You're just kind of like, cool, I don't know. And then the next day, I think we were in Utah or something. We're like, let's play that thing from last night. And there's like a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus. And they're just like, what the fuck is that song? You know what I mean? And we're like, oh, you like to like play it again.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  And we like played it like 25 times.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  In the same format, you didn't change it at all from the tipsy night?

• 12:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, really didn't change it from the from the night before. And we were just like, oh.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  It's actually good?

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Huh. You know, like, like, we liked this, but I didn't like, it didn't scream things to me. And the other thing that it's worth mentioning is shout to Sean Frank. He's another great DG producer that has helped us some countless songs. We didn't, Drew wasn't, had never sung anything up to that point in time.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  And we didn't have any singers on tour with us. So he was just like, I'll just sing it as like a scratch demo. And hopefully, you know, we'll find someone else to replace me. And so when we were playing it for people, it was like Drew singing and they were like, damn, you don't like, sound pretty good, you know, like in the, at least in the tonally in the world of this song. And it was just wild because Sean, like to Drew and I, you know. Shout out to Sean. He was just like, I can make you sound good. Like, I know you're not a singer, but like, I have like enough experience in like Pro Tools and Auto-Tune and all these things where I can make you sound amazing. And he did. And like, I remember sitting there, like, for like, you know, a few shows in the back of us where Drew just cut every line over and over and over and over and over again. And it like, till it started to really like glow. And it was just a wild experience. I remember we sent it to our manager and a few people and

• 13:08Speaker 00

  they were like, it was weird because you send stuff to people and you don't know what their reaction is going to be. And our manager was like, cool. You know what I mean? Like, and we were like, what? Like, this song's amazing. The song like, the story just goes on forever because like, then it was about, there's so many feature issues and things like that.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  I'm curious what the, and this is kind of a funny question, but like, what the impact of like, drinking or drugs can have on creativity. I feel like, um, in like, tech circles, a lot of the world, though, there's lately been this real push towards no drinking, no drugs, like a very sanitized physiology.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Which I'm all for.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  I love going to bed early.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  I love feeling good. I just also, of course, know that a lot of creative people, I think both actually in tech, in music, in other fields. Like, I do think that like, alcohol and drugs play some role for a lot of people.

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. I mean, I think it's like, you know, can obviously loosen your inhibitions and kind of like, lead you on a path of coming up with ideas or doing things that you would, like, him singing.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Might have like, been a result of like, having a few beers that night where he was like, fuck it, I'll do it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care if anyone's around me thinking that like, my voice sucks. I'm just gonna do it. I think it was like a double edged sword. I mean, I totally agree with you. I think like, I mean, you know, Drew's like, the epitome of health now. I think like, we've both been very conscious over our career of like, maybe we need to turn this down a little bit. We never, I'm like, I've actually never, my fun fact is I've never done coke ever in my life. It surprises a lot of people. Were in Vegas a lot. We played, you know, sometimes like, you know, four or five weeks of shows in a row. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of like, music culture historically.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  And, and I think that, you know, there's a obvious reason why, you know, you're dancing, you're having fun, you're partying, those, you know, the associations of that.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  And a part of art even, like, I think a lot of like writers.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Totally. I mean, it's kind of this like tortured self thing that like, you know, it's like cool to smoke a cigarette. Look cool, you know, like people smoking cigarettes look cooler for some reason. I don't know why, but it's like definitely going to give you cancer. And there's something dangerous and badass about that, like the self reverence. But, you know, I mean, we notice with ourselves is that like in the studio, the same way that it can like enable you to have a little bit, take a little bit more risk or step outside your comfort zone. It also becomes like a dependency where you think like, oh shit, I can't write unless I'm anything great, unless I'm tipsy or drunk or having a drink or something like that. And that's like definitely a slippery slope. And I think that goes for like anyone across anything. You could make that case for like, you know, marathon runners.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  You know, it's like, unless I run 20 miles today, I'm going to be in a terrible mood, you know? And I think, you know, finding that balance is really, really important and something that we've definitely thought about. I mean, you know, the idea of writing music during the day used to be like, hell no, you know what I mean? And like, we write at night. That's when it's a vibe and it's cool and you can kind of like cut loose. And now we're just like, no, I like the focus of the daytime and, and coming here and, and having like the intention of just being like, we're making music no matter what.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  It's like writing music like caffeinated. Like I always think that like, you know, like after my second cup of coffee, I have like a few hours where I'm just like, my brain is at its absolute peak.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  It's productive peak. It's not creative peak, but it's productive peak. But I do wonder if you get to a place even in creative endeavors, where you probably could translate that caffeinated morning buzz into.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Into music.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  No, totally. I mean, I think, you know, you have to come in with energy and inspire, but I think like anything, it's like, so much of the importance is how you start. Like I can tell like almost right away when we're going to have like a productive day versus a day where you're just like, we're just like hitting walls and just nothing feels inspiring, you know? And I think it's really tough as you get older. Like when we started making music, like really no one like cared about us. Like no one bothered us, checked in. No one was like, hey, I need your eyes on this for 15 minutes or, you know, this thing's happening over here that needs your attention. And so like, it was very much just like we were in the zone and no one really could take us out of it and no one wanted to take us out of it. And, and now, you know. Gritten be so much more protective about that stuff. I don't know if you saw like our photo on our studio door.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  But it's like a literally a set of rules that are like before you come in here.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Oh wow, no.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  You know, think about this, like is what you're about to say really important? Like, are they in the middle of something? La da da. And, and you know, because we found that like it's so easy for someone to come in and just be like, hey, by the way, that, you know, deal or that show, something happened. And you're just like, oh, god dang it. And then you're like, now I'm not.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  It's um, Paul Graham's like great essay that, you know, talks about the maker's schedule and the manager's schedule. And like, when someone's making things, you need to not distract them. It's like too expensive.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  The flow state is very real. I mean, like roses happened in one session, like most, a lot of closer happen, even though it's like an idea that had been floating around, happened in one session. Don't let me down similarly. So like, there is something consistent about that. And you really like want to stay in that, that place. Most songs still, you'll come back and spend seven months refining and tinkering. But generally speaking, it's not like, hey, I got 10% of this song out today. And then 20% tomorrow. And then, you know, there's just something, you know, Drew has this great expression where it's like, there's something changes when a song becomes like promiscuous. You know, and, and it's like his into the too mu- too many people before it's done, or too many opinions have weighed in on what people think.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  It like smooths out the good edge.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And it's just like something, the magic is just kind of like eroded away. And, uh, and I think he's totally true. And I think like, I'm always like, let's not show anybody this thing. Or like outside of really like.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Especially when you know it's good. You know, I think about this a lot. This happens in, this actually happens for me in investing. It happens in other areas of life too, where you're uncertain, you're uncertain, you know, and you're asking for a lot of opinions. And then every once in a while, there's a thing that you're positive is good.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  And you don't need to ask anybody's opinion and you just do that thing.

• 18:52Speaker 00

  I totally agree.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Like, I know this is right.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  You have to like trust your gut. And then like, I'm a huge intuition guy, guy. And that's why I love, I'm happy to have Drew as a partner because we kind of like.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Iron sharpens iron is kind of like how we think about it. But at the same time, like, it's so easy to get talked out of something awesome. You know what I mean? And, and like, you know, people don't always have the. Same context, everyone coming with their own, you know, like experiences that are shaping the way they're thinking about something. So you might be like, hey, I love this, you know, idea nuclear, it's great. And they'll be like, this guy's like, never gonna work. And it's like, well, is that because you lost $20 million in like, the last era of nuclear? Or are you actually looking at this with like, a fresh eye that's not like tainted by any past experience? And I don't think anyone could say that are not in some way, shape or form, you know, the, you know, outcome of all their experiences, some of all their experiences.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Just because I love these song stories. If we could do one more, Don't Let Me Down is another one of my favorites. Can you tell me how that came together?

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's funny because I like, wasn't in the room when this song was written. It was a heartbreaking thing. I think I had like a doctor's appointment or something stupid that day. And so Drew and I, we were in New York, we lived next door to each other on 23rd Street. And we did this session with Scott Harris and Emily Warren, both amazing writers. Emily's been like, is like one of our closest friends now. I remember they came in and wrote, you know, they were inspired by kind of like the XX, the band, I think they're headlining Coachella or close to it this year. Incredible band. And they just have these incredible guitar riffs. And they wanted, and at the same time, Drew had just been challenged by his girlfriend to make a trap song, or his girlfriend at the time. Now, she was just like really into like

• 20:31Speaker 00

  Yellow Claw and trap artists. And he was like, I can make this, you know, and like, and so he was like, but I want to combine like our indie approach. I love the XX, I love, you know, you know, I do like trap, I just haven't made any of it. And, you know, I remember like getting there after everyone left. And he was like, so we wrote this today. And I was like, good God. You know what I mean? I was like, what the hell? Like, it wasn't fully flushed out, but it was like, pretty, pretty damn good. I don't think he had the drop yet, but it was like coming together. And, and I was like, what's it about? And he was like, well, Emily wrote it about being lost at Coachella on drugs. And so, and like, you're supposed to meet up with friends, but like, you can't find them. And you're like, don't let me down. And I was like, this is a,

• 21:16Speaker 00

  you know, really, this is a really good song. And then we like, had a flight later that night. And when we landed, Drew was like, I think I got the drop. And I was like, Like, it was like kind of a weird song for me because I was like, I really didn't have much of a hand in it at all.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  We're gonna stitch that drop in here because I just played it in my head.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And, and then like, you know, and then I'm like, but I get to, you know, reap all of these amazing rewards for it. And obviously we didn't have Dea on the song at the time. We didn't have the finale. So a bunch of things like I, you know, did get to participate in, but like truly, I mean, that was a Drew Emily Scott special.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  You know, the last thing I'll say that was really funny about this song is that I remember we were like, this is the song. It's gonna be the next single 100%. Everyone that heard it was like, this is insane. And then Drew's computer completely crashed. And I wouldn't say Drew's the epitome of organization. And so we were like, what do you mean? Like you've got a backup or like something? And he's like, I don't have anything.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  It's gone.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  So he had to rebuild the entire song from memory, from scratch, which is kind of truly insane.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Oh, that's frustrating.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  But he'll tell you that it was actually a really important exercise. And I think this kind of leans into a lot of things that Rick Rubin does really well. Which is like, he didn't include anything that wasn't completely necessary the time, next time around. Like he was like, I remember the guitar. I remember the bass. I remember the piano. I remember the drop synth I used. And, and the horns in the end. And it was like, instead of having like, in the first version, kind of had all these different layers, trying to compensate for things and create more depth and texture and different things. Instead, he was just like, I gotta get this done. These are the main parts that I remember.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  And the recreation came out better?

• 22:43Speaker 00

  Better, I'd say. Cause it was just like all the bullshit that was, was like kind of removed from it. But I was also like, we have to, now we have a very thorough backup system. But, uh, but it was, you know, that was a scary one because it was like, what if we'd lost that song forever?

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Actually, this is making me wonder, if you had to go back and recreate, like, you know, similar versions of your existing songs right now.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  And be like, make it sound mostly the same, but like, you know, see if you can improve it.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Do you think you could? Like, could you go make Paris a little better if you just like spent a week on it?

• 23:13Speaker 00

  I think like, we've said in the past that like, Don't Let Me Down and, uh, maybe Sick Boy. Are like the only two songs we've ever like finished that we were like, those are done.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  You're like, I don't know how to make this better.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Like, that is it. Every other song, there's like something we would turn down.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  And you're like, I could change that to make it better?

• 23:29Speaker 00

  Turning something down, turning something up. You know what I mean? Like just little, you know? Like tonally things you might sing a little differently. Nothing significant, you know what I mean? But like, just like.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Do you do that? So when you play songs like live, do you improve them years after you've released them? And then the live version that you play is like, you stick with an improvement?

• 23:48Speaker 00

  I think like for us, like, yes, I think part of it is like DJ culture of just like, we want to surprise people. We want people to hear the song that they love and know, but like surprise them with a bigger drop or something that, you know, just leans into like the experience we're trying to create the show a little more without like ruining the actual, you know, nothing's worse than being like, oh, it's my favorite song. What the hell is this? You know, like first thing he's playing.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Years ago, I went to a show of yours in Las Vegas daytime.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  And I was just like, this is like the most unbelievable energy ever.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's fun there.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  It's a crazy energy.

• 24:21Speaker 00

  It's fun there.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  It's gotta be so fun. I can't even imagine what it feels like for you. I mean, I know anything, we all get used to anything. Yeah. I'm sure after you've done it enough.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Every experience is a new endeavor because everyone in Vegas is like trying to have the best time of their life, which makes that experience really fun for us, but like.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Cause you're just like, I'm trying to help this huge group of people just have like the best day of all time.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  That's what you gotta remember. I mean, like, it's been of like, I've been playing there for like seven years now. And you go in and you kind of be like, uh, I mean, now we play like four or 500 shows there.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  And you're like, yeah, this is like routine on some level.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Like they like.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you're like, that's our job, you know, like, I'm not gonna, sure, I'll throw in some tracks that I want to educate people on or I think are cool that maybe aren't popular yet. But like, a lot of the experience is just like, hey, like, we know what you're here for. I, I've been in your shoes. I just wanna like, party with my best friends and have a great day.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Singing and dancing the songs that I love, maybe. And our job is to like, present them in clever, fun, unique ways that make it interesting. Cause it's like, you know, Vegas, I, I don't wanna say like the people there are the lowest common denominator, cause that's not true. But like, the, the habits of what, as a sum of their parts, like, they all like Mr. Brightside. You know what I mean? Like, like really like that song. And so, you know, you're like, but then you'll play like, you know, a song that's number one on Billboard right now. And people are like, I don't know this song.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's like, damn, this song does not trickle down. And so it's amazing to watch how long it takes for a song to like permeate through culture, to like reach that broad consumer base. And it's our job to kind of test those waters and challenge people, but like feed them things they know. Like we have this closer edit where we start with fast car and then goes like, and then uh, the Luke Bryan version and then goes into uh closer and like people will love it, you know? Cause it's like country fans now, people that love fast car, people that love closer and it like, and like just when you think you know the song, you're like, oh, it's closer. And then you're like, wait, it's fast car? And then it goes back in the closer and it's like, those are the fun things that you can do that like make, you know, a, a, a pretty straightforward experience more interesting.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  You have this really rare trait, which is that you are both an artist and a real business person. Even listening to the way you've talked about like songs and music, you know, part of it is like, you gotta go internal, make your own thing, not listen to anybody, like screw what other people think.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Which is to me like the epitome of an artist. And then you're also like, give people what they want and we're here to like deliver like an experience for people and, you know, listen to them and get their feedback, which is like the epitome of like a business person and you're both.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're, it's a, we're tormented inside.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Even the fact you spend half your time in, you know, as, as an investor, half your time as an artist. You know, that mix up I think is uncommon.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  It's awesome. I mean, I think like for us, you know, when Drew and I met, I guess it's like almost 14 years ago now. Like from the very first hang, uh, you know, it was pretty clear to us that we both had really big ambitions, but we were very aligned in how we wanted to achieve them. Like it wasn't like there was going to be some shortcut to success. We were like, we're both willing to put in the work and the hours, whatever it takes to kind of get where we want to go. But I think like the unique part, I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. I mean, first we were like, do you like Calvin Harris? You know, and it was like, yeah, Calvin Harris was like, cool. What else, what else do we have in common? But then quickly it was like our love for dance music, our background tastes amusing, things we listen to. You know, entrepreneurial endeavors that we had throughout our, our youths that we didn't know each other. And then like, we kind of like, we're like, all right, let's do this.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  But also like when we are successful in, in building the chain smokers, like let's only use that as like the stepping stone to like, building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts. We had no idea what those things were, but we were like from the get go. We were both like, it's not just gonna stop here.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  And I think for us, you know, you know, Drew used to sell Timberlands that he bought locally in China.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  You guys are always entrepreneurs.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Always doing stuff and trying to, you know, find ways to be creative and clever in business. And I think, you know, music is such a like. Certain part of your brain and personality.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  That like, I do think part of us was like yearning also for something that was like a little bit more tangible and analytical and I don't want to say music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  You know, for us, we had started a tequila company. We had a TV and production company and venture was kind of the last

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Bashing.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Most recent thing bashing for us. And honestly, I didn't know what it was. You know, like I really did not know anything about venture. Like I remember a business manager was like, I got pinged by some company that wants you to, you know, potentially invest and take some equity. And I was like, what does that be? Like, what does all that mean? You know, like, I mean, I understand what equity means, but like, what is, you know, venture capital, like passive income. And he was just like, listen, you know, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years. Like, this is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in investing in products or platforms or things that, you know, you think are cool, let's try it, you know? And like, most of the time you're gonna fail, but like, maybe you get lucky and it will work out. And, you know, we began that

• 29:11Speaker 00

  journey and very quickly, it was like a part of our brain lighting up that like, I felt like had been not dormant, but like underserved.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  And it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these like super ambitious goals and plans for the future. And then, you know, it kind of just like avalanche of things came from that.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I'm sure it all like plays together and, you know, I'm sure there's a bunch of ways where, you know, business makes your music better or music can make your business better.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  I'm sure there are also ways where you probably feel like tensions on certain days, just because there's only so many hours in the day.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  An example I've thought about, um, that I'm actually really curious to hear how you think about. Last year I got into like hi-fi audio. It was just like, I've always loved music. I played music a lot as a kid growing up and I love listening to music and I started listening to albums. I find the experience of listening to a whole album like super different than just listening to a song.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  And I feel like the difference is I'm listening to like an artist rather than like, you know, a song.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  And so it's just like, who's this person? And then I get into like, you know, their albums over time and like how they, you know, grow and evolve and you see what they pour into it. You know, I chatted about this a bit before, like one of my favorites is Bon Iver.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  And like, you know, he's just had like, There's, I can't say enough good things. I'm gonna, you know, mess it up. But like, there was like the early days with like For Emma forever ago, where it's just like, it's all so raw and young and he's talking about a breakup and he's, you know, I think his band fell apart. He's like in the woods with like a sad sounding guitar, but it's amazing. And then he gets into like his core stuff a few years later, like with his like self-named album.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  And it's totally different and there's band around him now. Then it got really experimental, like he had like, um, I am I, before that there was 22 a million. And those songs, I'm just like, what fucking instrument is that?

• 30:56Speaker 00

  No, I mean, those were mind blowing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  And Jonathan is like the goat of goat. You know, I think we talk about this with, uh, you know, like any artist out there, like if Bon Iver's not in their like top five, I would be like thoroughly surprised by that.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  He's just so real.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  You know, he's like, I don't know cars, but it's like people that are like, you know, there's cars and then there's car lovers' favorite cars. That are universally like, that's the car, you know? He's like that for musicians and I think, you know, to your point about albums, which is something, you know, we talk a lot about today because there's just so many, it's changed so dramatically, the format by which we listen to music.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  Fighting for people's attention. But I do think that like you would be hard pressed to find an artist in the history of music that like would stand the test of time, that hasn't delivered a, like a, uh, an incredible album. I think it's like an absolutely essential part if you will ever be mentioned among the greats.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  And those albums, they're just like, um, so much has to go into an album.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Totally. And I think like, I know, uh, Billie Eilish talks about it a lot. She's just like, I try not to pick singles on my albums, like the context is so important. Like, she's like, I generally like, um, kind of put off by when an artist is like, this song is my single. And she, you know, like, and I think like Jack Enfield's kind of said it best actually, where he's like, singles are like, uh, without an album are like hallways that lead to nowhere. You know, um, and singles can be a path to a story, which is fine, but you need.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a story.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  You need the story, you need the album. And I know that's like harder than ever in today's culture of social media and fighting for attention.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  It must take so much focus. I must, it's not something that you could do in a day. It's not something you could even probably do in a week or a month.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  No, you have to like, it's so tough.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  For a year, I bet.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Literally, I mean, I think we've, you know, made some great albums in the past and every album was like dramatically different in terms of our approach. Probably the thing that like felt closest to what like the artist that I really am and respected it was because you kind of do have to like unplug from the world. You're like, I'm going off into this mental space and physically and I'll be back when I have something that I'm excited about, you know? And I don't even know what that is yet. I need to figure out what that story is, what that visual line is, what, you know, what I care about right now. What does it feel and sound like? You know, I'm a huge Tim and Paul fan and he does a really great job of this. But, you know, for us, like during COVID, we rented a house, it was actually right before COVID in Hawaii.

• 33:15Speaker 00

  Shout to Brian Chesky, we were friends of his, we had like met him through some events and stuff. And he was like, if you ever want to, you know, one of the houses to rent an album, like let me know. And we were like, we'll take one in Hawaii. And we went there for like four weeks and just did mushrooms and surfed and wrote music literally every minute of the day. And it was like, this is what, you know, we weren't taking meetings, we weren't getting interrupted by people. Yeah, we were like locked in on this sound. Granted, it still took like two years to really finish that album. But like we came back, we were like, this is the, you know what I mean? Like we had, we were, you know, like the road had been paved and we just needed to continue down.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Did the mushrooms help?

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Yes and no. I mean, I think it can lead you, it's like similar where we're talking about alcohol. It's like, there's like the perfect balance. Like it got out of our own way. It's like this ego killer thing. It like, I want to say flattened, like, but you know, when we were all, it like, it's weird. If you do mushrooms with like a group of people, for some reason, like you all hit at the same time. And it's, I don't know if anyone's listening can agree with that, but like you could sit around friends, you all take mushrooms, you're all different sizes, you're all different, you know, biologies. But like categorically, like I guarantee you, you will all be like, at the same time, you're like, whoa, you know? And I think that like got us and everyone that was there on this similar page where we were really connected and in tune with the things we wanted to say and write.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  And the feeling we got from everything, but at the same time, you can like over index and then you can get weird, you know, start writing about really weird stuff. And I think again, it's everything in moderation is important, but at that time it was like, that was the feeling we want, you know, have. We didn't want to come in there with. Angst and aggression from previous experiences, you know, like our Sick Boy album like was filled with like, kind of like resentment towards like the press and media and and how people perceived us. It was like this weird disassociating feeling, but it was weird because that was like an album that came together song by song in a different way. And then like literally like eight songs in the album, we were like happy again. You know what I mean? And so like this album takes like this dramatically different tone.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:15Speaker 00

  And you're just like.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  But I think that's what makes it authentic when it's like that.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. But we're just like, what a weird.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  You know, like.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  It is weird when you're listening and you're like, oh, something happened.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, well, you know, and so, I mean, it's definitely like a reflection of us and the timeline of our lives and the things we were experiencing. But, you know, it wasn't like a moment like.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  How do you balance like wanting to give people what they love? And obviously, like, I'm sure a huge part of what drives you is like getting to make millions of people happy.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Through music.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  How do you balance that and you know, the type of music they love?

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  With, I'm sure you also have your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  And like, I'm sure there's some tension there.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  It's such an important question to ask because I think that there's so many, it's like first you like, find a sound that's unique to you and people rally around it and are excited about it, you know, you make this song and it becomes, you know, not what you're synonymous for, but like, you know, Tame Impala has a sound, you know, Drake has a sound. Everyone has something that is identifiable where you're like, that's like, you know, the vibe. And then you start people being like, oh, it's, it's just that again, or like, let's see you make something else and try something else. Naturally, like the bad comments like that for some reason cut through and we can make anything like we generally are like good producers and writers.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  We know how to make all kinds of music.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  And then so then you find yourself in the studio being like, I'm not gonna show you. And in some cases it works, like Drew's ex-girlfriend that was like, you can't make trap songs. You know what I mean? But he found a way to fit in the context of our world, which I think makes sense. And so I think it's so important to like, stay true to who you are. It doesn't mean don't experiment, doesn't mean broaden your horizons and seek, you know, and explore different opportunities. But I think it's really important to like, stay.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  It just has to be authentic, I think.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  And like if you've changed. The person, I feel like the music should change almost.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And it doesn't mean it's like, I use this one synth, so I use this one synth in every, every song. It's just like, hey, like, what's wrong with like, like, you know, people coming to us for this thing? Like Kygo, this is why he does so goddamn well. It's because people come to him for this sound and experience, and it's fucking awesome. And I think, you know, he really delivers that experience. I think the other, you know, side of the equation is kind of just this idea of like, I'm a big Oasis fan and I love like the Liam and Noel Gallagher clips that you're getting from like the past. And he has this like epic clip that everyone should go see where he's just like, he's like, your fans are idiots. He's like, they don't know what they want. He's like, that's what I'm supposed to deliver to them. Like, I tell my fans what they want. They don't tell me, you know, what they want. You know, obviously he does it in his Oasis way, which is like awesome and funny and reverent.

• 37:41Speaker 00

  But like, I also totally agree with him. And I think, you know, you have to balance that. You know, we had a song we just put out called Smooth that I love. And all of our fans, like while we were promoting other songs, we're like, Smooth, release Smooth, we want Smooth. And like, we made Smooth. We're very excited about Smooth. It is very authentically us. I don't think it's like a departure. But like, I think we were also like, thinking like, oh, this is gonna be our biggest song because our fans are all asking for it. But like, I don't, it's not working out that way.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 00

  And so whereas like we had released a song last summer called Addicted that none of our fans were stoked about, but ended up being, you know, one of our biggest songs in the last few years and like appealed to a much broader audience.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Can you, so you're saying it's not that predictable what's gonna hit?

• 38:19Speaker 00

  I think it's just like, you just gotta do what you trust your gut, kind of what we were saying earlier. Like, you know, I don't think releasing Smooth was a mistake. I love that song, you know? But, and I don't think releasing Addicted, which none of our fans wanted, was a mistake. But I do think it's harder to play Addicted in our shows because it doesn't fit in naturally with like, the energy we've, we've created, where Smooth is just 100% Chainsmokers. So I think you kind of have to like think about those things long term. And I think like Selfie is a great example of this. Like, we made that song as a joke, put it on the internet just for fun. Took us like 30 minutes to do it. And then we have to live with the song for the rest of our lives, you know, now. Like, people expect us to perform it, to talk about it, you know, it's part of our history. You know, we didn't think about that so much when we just put it online and the internet, which is forever.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  And so it's, you know, those things have consequences, but I think as the artist, it's your job to like. Like absorb these things, understand why people are feeling a certain way like I I think like what we should have taken away from the smooth thing is that people like love when Drew's singing. They love the, you know, intimate storytelling of of of our music and they like, you know, the hands up progressive house production. And it's but it's doesn't mean necessarily mean that like we should be like smooth is the next song because they want it, you know?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Does good art require external inspiration? Like, can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you? Whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life, somebody that you saw and learned from and, you know, were, you know, really moved by what they did.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Can a great thing really just bubble up out of you or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside?

• 39:50Speaker 00

  I'm gonna go with inspiration like and I'm not saying that like going back to what we were saying about Chris Martin and like music being sent down and you kind of have to. But I think it's when it's sent down, you have to be in a place mentally and creatively to like receive that, you know, message and inspiration. And usually those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had around you in your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. You know, a lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions. It's literally like, forget music, what's going on? You know, like, what is, how is your home right now? Are you having your relationship? Are there any things that surprise you like of your family? What's it like being thirty five or forty in my case? Through those conversations, you're kind of led to places or thinking about things that, you know, impacted you. And I think like acting is a great example of this.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Like you're literally like being hired to play the role of someone not you, you know? And so like you are channeling all of these things you've seen and experienced to like try to kind of capture the essence of this character in this film. And I can remember, I think it was like a PBS episode where someone was like, great acting, like to be a great actor, like go do everything else except act. Like go to as many art shows as possible, see as many as much theater as possible, listen to as much music as possible, read as many books as possible. And like then you will have this like incredible library of of context where you can pull from and hopefully create, you know, your own thing. And I think, you know, that's like kind of like the conversation about like large language models being like copyrightable output. Or not, you know, I don't think they really should be, to be honest with you.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Have you played around with AI music at all yet?

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  What do you think?

• 41:23Speaker 00

  It's incredible and scary.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  You think it'll matter?

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Like it will matter.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Do you think it will like, uh, do you think we'll be listening to a lot of AI generated music?

• 41:32Speaker 00

  I think we already are. You don't even know it. I think like.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Like in the middle of your song, there will be clips that AI help or there'll be parts that AI.

• 41:38Speaker 00

  Maybe eventually. I mean, I think for us, it's just like shocking, you know, kind of again, like what I like about AI tools right now for us is it's just like keeps us in the zone, which is all we want to do. It's like, instead of getting caught up being like, fuck, we need to make drums now, which is the next part of this creative process for us. And it's going to take me like an hour and a half. It's like, never mind, I can prompt this thing to pump out. This might not be the final drums we're going to use, but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity. I think, you know, we've gotten demos sent to us where it's like 15 songs that Drew's singing on and you're like, no, no, no. Actually, Drew sounds pretty good on that. And I think that's a really cool application of it. You know, I think that if you were in a nightclub and I was playing an AI generated song, but it was good. Let's just say it was like a good song.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  I don't think anyone, no, you know what I mean? Like genuinely, like I think like if you can kind of do the like control placebo effect of like AI music versus.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  It's pretty good.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like, would people really be able to like determine which was, which one isn't us? Do I think it's important? Like, kind of like the similar, you know, conversation about albums? Like, I do think context matters. Like, I think like, you know, albums provide context, the same way that like a personality provides context.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  That's how I feel. I mean, it's harder. I think a big part of what makes me enjoy music is knowing something about the artist and why the song, you know, the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. Like, I also love just listening to something on the radio.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Or like, you know, you're out doing stuff like that's awesome too.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  But like the best version of enjoyment of music, I do think the context helps.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And I think like, it's interesting because we're kind of like fighting against that with TikTok in many ways. Like, I think the way people are discovering music, which, you know, TikTok is a great tool for and platform for, is like, they just hear something that sounds catchy. And they're like, I'm going to make a video of this. Only recently did like Spotify create it. Integration where you can like click on the song that takes you to Spotify. So you can even see what this person looks like, you know what I mean, or anything. And I think like that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for like younger listeners now where they're not taking that issue. They're just like, oh, this is a cool song. I'm not, you know, not even everything that goes viral on TikTok translates to streaming on the platform either. But I think, you know, those were some of my, you know, that's why like music videos were so cool back in the day because it was like, there they are, you know?

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Now everyone's so available, everything's out there. You know, we're all like, do we care? Do you even care? I just like the song, whatever, you know what I mean? But like, I think like the artists that have longevity force people to like, ask those questions and kind of like seek them out a little further because like, you know, seeing what Justin Vernon's like as a human being like adds so much depth to his music. Bruno Mars, same thing. You're like, this guy's great dancer, you know, you wouldn't know that if you didn't see him out. He also has more, he has more number one songs, like his average of number one songs is like 700% or something like, like 70% of the time he has a number one song, which is like, he's only released like 75 songs or something, 80 songs, which is like unbelievable statistics.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  One of the things that's so cool and you know, I don't, you know, I'm in San Francisco and tech and so I don't get to think about this as much, but like outlier talent is, it's really a cool thing. That there are some people that are just that good at singing, that good at music, that good at, you know, entertainment, like it's, it's cool.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really cool. And also it's like really weird when you see someone working on, having that talent, working on the wrong thing. Or like, it's like so talented that they can't even like channel it correctly. Like I had terrible ADHD growing up and I was like a super average student until like 10th grade. And then I figured out like making lists organized my brain. And like, it was just a function of like, I can do everything. I just like wouldn't spend enough time, you know, like, and I loved the experience of crossing things off more than I like, like hated having to focus. And it just made me like a war machine of like getting shit done. And I think like, that's when you find someone that's like doing the thing they're supposed to do at the right time. It's like one of the greatest.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  I think 30 years ago, 30 years ago, we like misunderstood ADHD as this like ailment. And it like turned out it's this superpower that just like needs like psychops.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. I read a really interesting article the other day about like autism and how like a lot of like our favorite apps today, but used by most society were created by people that like have some level of autism or

• 45:50Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Aspirgers or something.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  And that like there are by function like tools that like kind of like uh like aid someone that's like natural experience in public is like uncomfortable.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  So like Facebook or Instagram or all these things like are ways to kind of like like create community, but in like settings that are like more consumable and comfortable. And I was like, that's really interesting thought that like we've like, you know, all the most powerful platforms were created by people that like wanted to create a platform that was like leaned more.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  People think of ADHD as like inability to focus and that's not what it is. It's disordered focus.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  So it's just also it comes with mega focus.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  When I am correctly.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, like, again, it's just like figuring out how to use those superpowers. That's like one of the biggest, I think, struggles that anyone has in life. Everyone has something they're inherently good at or have, you know, overcome some experience. I know like, I think it was like Mike Moritz is like famous for asking for like, like what kind of trauma did you go through that's going to give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder or, you know, drive that like will just help you succeed against everyone else. I think everyone has those things. It's just like, it's really hard to, it is hard to uncover what those things are and even harder to figure out like where to direct that energy, even if you do. I think like every day, it's what motivates me because I'm like, I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff. So it's kind of like, let's keep going, you know?

• 47:10Speaker 01

  I was thinking it's where like self-awareness matters so much and it's what lets you take advantage of your special attributes.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of people want to be something that they're not, or they want to do something that's not natural for them. And so maybe this is like a good segue into like your investing work.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Where like you've also now built a venture firm and you're working really hard, very successfully at that.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  And it's a really different job than your, than your music. And you and I were chatting before about like playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got, you know, an unfair advantage and focusing your time there. So maybe just to like start on the investing side, like how do you think about where you want to be playing and where you should like focus Mantis?

• 47:49Speaker 00

  It's kind of an interesting. Approach in terms of that, like, we are not consumer investors. Like, I in fact leaned into like spaces that like we probably like have the least amount of business being invested in. And I've listened to like that every, a lot of your episodes and like every time I've finished listening to one, I'm like, what am I even do? You know what I mean? Like if this, this guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the way we've set up our firm, but like, wow, you know, like.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  You mean that you've set up in order to like be able to participate with everybody?

• 48:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, like we, we want to be collaborative. Like I want to learn from everyone around me. I want people to think of us as an ally versus foe. I also think that's like, was a big part of our success in music was collaboration. So I think it's like a natural extension into venture and like, over time, we'll absorb these best practices and hopefully become the great investors that, you know, I listen to on the show every week. But I think for us, you know, we wanted to lean in the spaces like A, out of curiosity, like I was much more interested in investing in cybersecurity than I was in more consumer stuff. Similar with AI, similar with health tech and deep and frontier technologies. I just thought like, you know, if you're gonna, if it's already such a gamble, at least in gamble things that you care about, I think are really interesting.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  I also thought that I was like, hey, this is like, like there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies, like very few investing in.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Software.

• 49:03Speaker 00

  Software.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  That is an advantage and disadvantage in itself. Like, there's probably a reason why they're not doing that because it's really technical, really challenging. And, and also like what business do you have? Like a lot of success that we hopefully will have is just, uh, you know, an outcome of the value we're able to add. So like the second that we invest in a company and a founder's like, they just didn't know shit, they didn't do shit. Like that was just a real waste of cap space for me. Like we're dead in the water. So we definitely like took a risk doing this. But I think, you know, Drew and I are hustlers and we're just like, we're gonna figure it out. Like we know, I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  And also like, modern day times are changing so fast. Like the things like, you know, when the B to B creators now, or B to B, uh, you know, enterprise software founders are like fucking creators. On X now, like they're making videos like they're like Logan Paul does. And that's awesome. And so I knew that there was gonna be things that we could offer that would be helpful. And we wanted to make sure that it was like. Commensurate with like what we were asking for, you know, it's like, don't ask for 15% if you don't feel like you're going to add 15% value to the company. And then, you know, the last piece was also just like the formation and I say this a lot, but like, you know, I want to, you know, we have made so many great relationships over the course of our career. With all sorts of incredible people that are all like leaders of these different areas. And to us, it was like, well, why not go raise capital from them?

• 50:25Speaker 00

  You know, turn them into allies of the fund where we're using them for advice. We're like potentially leveraging the success of their platforms to drive value back in the end. Into the companies we're investing in there. Like we'll use them as our initial wedge. So that when someone's like, why are you investing? Why should I let you invest in this company? It's like, because I know you want to talk to this guy and this guy is one of our good friends and I can make that, you know, happen for you. But once we're in the door, we'll like provide, you know, all sorts of value. And I always say, and I think it really summed up by this kind of analogy. It's just like, we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team. You know, like I'm not trying to be a starter right now. Like I have much, I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring. Than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And, you know, I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  What you mean by that is you just want to be in great companies, even if it's not like you led the round or something?

• 51:12Speaker 00

  Yes, that, but I think like implications of like being alongside a founder that is building a great company. You get to see what greatness looks like, you know, you get to understand what are they doing that's like, I can take and hopefully replicate across other investments. And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like if you hang out with shitty people.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  You're going to be a shitty person probably, you know what I mean? You know, like if you got to play on the, you know, uh, what was it like 2002 Lakers, 2001 Lakers, like with Kobe Bryant. Like you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me as like a new investor, it's like, that's a huge benefit too. Like obviously the goal is to be a part of great companies. So we generate big returns, but I think for us, it's also just an opportunity about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like. So that we can improve.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way? Or are you just trying to learn from them in the background? In other words, like, are you in any ways directly using, you know, one sort of? Network or one sort of special access point in the other? Or are you like, actually, that's like polluting the sanctity of each? And I'm going to learn from both, but they're two different businesses.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, let me start with like a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in like the business side of his empire, which was like Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life. And he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are like for my fans. So if you're like eight years old, but you don't want to, you want to, you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home. You want to go to the Margaritaville Experience Retirement Home. Like, I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  You know, in those spaces were things that were inherently, things that made us successful in music. But I think in music, similar to venture, like music is a losing game. Like most of the songs we put out do not go, unless you're Bruno Mars, do not go on to be successful. You know, or at least like the success that, you know, you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that. But you do learn something very important from every song. You are building, you know, character and history and, and, and, you know, reps in the gym and pattern recognition. And I think investing is a lot like that. Like everyone I spoke to, which was like hundreds of people was like, most of your investments are going to go to zero. And I was like, one comfortable with that, you know what I mean? But like, you have to like learn from that. You can't let it be, uh, you know, uh, like it can't set you back in terms of like your next deal.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  You have to like immediately get back to the, you know, out there and, you know, stop looking at the scoreboard. Just keep your eyes on the field.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  And I think that's, you know, something that's really important. And I also think just like in general, like every time we put out a song, we have to like provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to like reinvent ourselves and tell people like why we should pay attention to us to right now. And it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise B V space or a consumer side or have that same opportunity and hail the climb. And I think, you know, we can provide like a vantage point that is like. Very useful and helpful, I think, to founders. That's not like contrarian to what like the tier one Sequoia or, you know, whoever is offering. We just think that like we're the, you want the Avengers on your cap table. You want someone that has like a unique perspective, a point of view that's looking at things differently, but wants the same outcome.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  And I think like music and our experiences in that and building our business there and our brand are like super relevant to like how we think about company building.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  I'd be curious to hear your reflections on like how you experience like sort of, you know, elite circles in music and entertainment and in tech and investing. You have real time with both.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  I'd just be curious, like, how similar is it? Are there like some like fundamental differences?

• 55:02Speaker 00

  I feel we're like, I don't know why, like, I mean, we have like plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are, you know, successful. But like, it does feel like, like either there's like secret groups that I don't know about where everyone's hanging out. Like sometimes you see a wedding and you're like, damn, like, so they all hang out? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You're like, what a cool, I wish I was part of that group. I mean, Drew and I are just like, we've always just kind of like, we love being social, but we're also just like so locked in on like.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  You've got a lot to do.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, we're just like, like, we're, you know, we've never counted, no one lifted us up. You know what I mean? And we kind of have always felt like it's like it's on our shoulders to like, figure this out and make the music. And like if we're out gallivanting around or whatever.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Networking with celebrities.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, it's just like, I don't know, it doesn't feel natural to us.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Doesn't make music.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it doesn't make music, um, you know, and I think there's like value in it. Like going to Fashion Week is cool, like if you love fashion, Drew loves fashion, like it's, you know, an amazing experience. Like, I don't care about it that much, you know? So I think we all seek out like things and interests that align with who our personalities are. But like, I honestly, like, I feel like we align with like the founder tech people world a lot more acutely because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like put hours in the gym and like the harder we throw, like work through, like our, you know, solves out these problems, the more we resolve, we're, you know, get out what we put in. And, you know, I feel like we have kind of an imposter syndrome with like the Hollywood side of things. Like, I don't feel uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think like

• 56:27Speaker 00

  anyone should treat me, you know, differently for the things we've done in the past. And it's like, I'm more just like, what have I done, you know, today?

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Than I am like what it done in the past.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing because it's like, no matter how famous somebody is, like, they're still a regular person. They wake up, they like wash their face in the mirror. They're like, and then they're like, look at me like, oh yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot, you know, there must be some experience like that for everybody.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I mean, I think like, you know, I'm like the most average. I mean, it's kind of a joke about us. We're like, any two white guys can kind of be the chain smokers and there's been plenty of beings.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  But then you go around the world and people are like, oh, I know who you are and.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  Totally. And I'm so like grateful for that. Like, I don't think I'm like an ordinary, you know, person, but I, I think like to that end, like you can't, I don't know, I just don't think that's like how you get, like, I don't think like elitism and things like that are like how you, if we think we're like the greatest humans in the world, like, is our music going to begin to feel like that? You know what I mean? And, and reflect that and like the relationships we have with people. And I think for us, it's our brand has always been built on like acknowledging everyone in the room. Like some of our superpowers are like, if you walk into a crowded space, we're going to make you feel like you're the biggest VIP here, even if I've never met you before. And I think like, that's how I wanted to be treated. I don't know. Maybe it's like high school trauma or something, you know, of things, but like that to me is, is more important than anything. And like, you know,

• 57:44Speaker 00

  when we were coming up, our music, like, we didn't want to be like wearing big diamond chain, I could afford diamond chains and super fancy cars, but it was like, I don't, that's not what we're about. Like, I wanted to like buy drinks for everyone at the bar.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  And I think it can take you away from the art. I think in business, it can take you away from the good stuff there too. Like, I do just feel like when people get lost in like materiality and ego and status, it is one of the ways people can like lose themselves.

• 58:11Speaker 00

  Well, you see it on the founder side too, like, you know, especially nowadays with like some of the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowing to take out and the press surrounding them. And I've certainly been involved in some of those companies and they're not bad people. It's like insecurities or things catching up to you.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:24Speaker 00

  At like inopportune times where you're like driving. Cars, you probably shouldn't be driving, yeah, like renting apartments or houses or going out too often because now like finally, people are inviting you places and want to talk about you. And it's like, don't lose sight of thing. You see it happen in LA with young artists all the time. It's like, they write a big song, they move to LA. There are like girls that want to take you out. You're going to clubs, playing your music. And then suddenly you've been in the studio for one or two days. And now there's a huge pressure on you. And you're not honestly really sure what you should be doing. And I think for us, we were just like, like, we're still living the dream, even though, you know, we're not going out every night. And but we're like, this is what we wanted to do the whole time. Why are we not doing this, you know, right now?

• 59:05Speaker 00

  And I think, you know, balance is really important. I think like, you know, that doesn't mean to say that you should like this nine nine six shit is the path to success. But like, I don't blame anyone for having those things. Like, we're all kind of the circumstances of like products of our environment. But it is a shame when you see it. And but I also always understand when people are going through that.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, um, somebody recently said to me that I think stopping it up, just like money and power, fame, like that whole sort of sphere of things. It doesn't necessarily corrupt, but it will definitely make more potent, whatever natural inclinations you have. And obviously, everybody has like light and dark inclinations.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  So I was someone was like saying, like, I always ask someone like, what is more important to them? Like money, power, or like, fame? And there's like a right, you know what I mean? Like, the right answer is just like, money?

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Because like fame is like you're chasing something like egotistical, whereas like, I don't know. And I don't know if that's like a fair question.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  No, I think I think understanding what drives people, and you know, there's probably some other things in there. Some people just are like out of that whole game entirely. But I do think, you know, of those three different people are very driven by different ones.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  Totally. I mean, you see it like, I mean, there's no more relevant place to see this than going to somewhere like Central Bay in the summer, where it's like you have billionaires that like, you know, can't get into a restaurant. Just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean they're like, but then Elton John pulls up, who's also probably billionaire. You know, but it's Elton fucking John, you know, he's getting that table. And so like, we're all chasing access and relevancy. And I think, you know, in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time, like everyone. Is struggling with something. Everyone doesn't feel relevant enough. Everyone is like, you know, like even Coldplay, I remember I was like, dude, they sell out 10 Wembleys instantly.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  You know, that's like 600,000, 700,000 tickets. And, and he's just like, but he wants kids, you know, the next generation.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Uncorrupted though, to me.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  I think everyone's corrupted on some level. I think he's definitely probably on the lower end spectrum of that. Like he is really principled person and, and, you know, and it's just an amazing guy. But I think we're all still, no matter what you tell yourself, there's like, I don't care. We tell the world one thing, but inside there's something else really driving you or, or keeping you up at night. And I know I feel it myself.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Well, you're in an interesting spot because you've, you've done a lot. You're still young. You've got two very good businesses going and you probably have like a busy decade ahead where it's like, you could, you could, you could go a lot of ways. Do you take it as it comes? Or are you like, you've got a particular mission in a place you want to get everything?

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  It's important. Like Drew and I probably don't do this enough where it's like you have a conversation about like, what do we want to do this year? You know what I mean? Like, what do we hope to gain? Like, what is the next? Like, do we, are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years? And you're like, and it's not like surprising the answers we have, but it's like surprising that we haven't had the conversations. You know, you also have to balance your like objectives with the reality of everything. Like music is not a young man's game. Like we both want to have families. Like we definitely can't be, well, you could tour as much as we want right now with kids, but like, what kind of impact does that have on the kids? On your relationships with your wife? Like, these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was in the David Sandler podcast and he was like, I'm only, I only think 24 hours at a time. You know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like, I think it's, that's, that's a, you know, important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But like, you know, you have to like build, like I don't, didn't expect Mantis to be a tier one fund off the bat. You know, I mean, I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there and understand that like, you know, we were taking 50K allocations in Fund One into great companies. Cause like, we understood that's where we sat.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  And it was more important to be in that logo.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  Than it was to like be outside. And I think in music, you know, similarly like. Where are we investing our time in singles and albums? You know, is it on the show that's the most important thing? Is it, you know, actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. Like, if you want to see us, you can come see us Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but there's a trade off.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  It's a thing, yeah.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  You know, it's a trade off. And so, you know, I think it's just being aware of those things, having those conversations.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Um, are so critical. I'm lucky to have a partner where you can have like, even though we're not the same person, we have, we're very more aligned than more, most people are.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  It's incredibly lucky.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you get to like, you know, he'll say things that I'm like, oh, that's, I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, but that is super relevant. But it scares the shit out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died, I think he was like 54, you know? So I'm like only, and he felt so old, like mature to me.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Mine was 67.

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's just a weird context when you like put in that perspective of like, oh my God, I'm already not far off in this guy. Am I like better shape? Am I better look of second, you know, better looking, more successful? Am I a bigger asshole? Like, will I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some, some level? But, uh, but I think you, you know, you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  And, and just like have fun. I, that's something I think like Drew and I have been saying a lot lately, which is like, to me, like momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean like momentum in like our songs are streaming more or making more money this year. Or they, like momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes. And it's like, I want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like. You know, I want to, when we're discussing deals, it's like, a lot of it's not fun in the traditional sense, but it's like, damn, we're like in here for this great deal. Like, I can't believe we're, you know, like having these conversations with these people. And, and I think that to me is like what drives me, you know? It's just like every day you're kind of like, you know, a couple of steps forward is like very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Um, and try not to get wrapped up in the like hysteria of like, damn, this song failed, you know?

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Keeping it something where you're happy to win, not just like sad to lose, I feel like is so important.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. I mean, I told you about a deal I'm like freaking stressing out about right now. And, and I'm like, already in my head, I'm like, this is probably going to say no. You know, like, or zero. And I'm like, and what is that, what would that? Make me feel like and what does that mean for the future and like, do I want to help this person anymore after this? Like, you know, what kind of, and I'm just like, no, of course I'm gonna fucking help this person. And of course I'm gonna be bummed out and of course I'm gonna try again the next time. And, you know, but like, also, you know, this guy's answering my texts every time I answer him. He's not, you know, there's, he could just be like, no, you know? Like, and so, you know, you kind of, I'm an optimist in that sense where it's like, you know, it could be a lot, a lot worse.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  It's an awesome mindset.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Alex is great. I'm gonna let you get back to you today. Thanks a ton for doing this with me.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:05:35Speaker 00

  Hell yeah.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  They're watching us?

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  This guy's just fucking zipping around. He's just trying to watch that.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  We'll post in a couple weeks.

• 1:05:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Dude, I had no idea you had fans like this.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy. Sorry.