20VC: Why You Don't Have To Have Operational Experience To Be A Good VC, Why There Is No Optimal Stage To Invest & Why VCs Should Focus on Reputation Ahead of Cash On Cash Returns with Lyon Wong, General Partner @ Spectrum 28

Lyon Wong is the Founding General Partner @ Spectrum 28, a $170m Silicon Valley fund that invests in companies who leverage data and computation to create and transform large industries. Prior to Spectrum 28, Lyon was Partner @ Lightspeed Venture Partners, the $3bn VC fund with investments in the likes of Snapchat, Nest and Giphy, just to name a few. Before Lightspeed Lyon spent time with leading Silicon Valley seed fund, SV Angel, where he worked with the likes of Ron Conway and David Lee. In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How did Lyon come to be GP of Spectrum 28 with their recent $170m fund? 2.) Why does Lyon believe that you do not have to have operational experience to be a good investor? What are the core components to beeing a good investor and value add investor? 3.) Why does Lyon believe that there is no optimal stage to invest? How does he evaluate the efficiency curve and positioning on it? How does this affect his thesis? 4.) Why does Lyon believe that funds must focus on reputation instead of cash on cash? What is the most effective and scalable way to build a reputation in today's venture ecosystem? 5.) How does Lyon evaluate team building at Spectrum 28? What did he look for in potential partners? How does he look to implement generational transition into the fund? Items Mentioned In Today’s Episode: Lyon’s Fave Blog: Medium, Quora Lyon’s Fave Book: Meditations by Marcus Aurelius Lyon’s Most Recent Investment: PatientBank As always you can follow The Twenty Minute VC, Harry and Lyon on Twitter here! Likewise, you can follow Harry on Snapchat here for mojito madness and all things 20VC. Angelloop is the leading post funding management platform for private market investors and their portfolio companies. They help investors manage and track their portfolio companies on the cloud while providing them with access to their investments performance data. Angelloop helps founders of startups track their performance, manage their cap table and keep their investors in the loop. Investors get free access while their portfolio companies pay only $49/Month. Use or share the promo-code 20MinVC to get your portfolio companies online with a two month trial. This episode was supported by Wunder Capital, the leading online investment platform that allows individuals to invest in large scale solar projects across the U. S. Wunder’s solar investment funds allow you to earn up to 11% annually, while diversifying your portfolio, curbing pollution and combating global climate change. Do well by doing good and sign up for a free account here and join the thousands of people that are already achieving their investment targets.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Hello and welcome back to the 20 Minute VC with your host Harry Stebbings at H Stebbings on Snapchat. For all those that have taken so long to add me, it'd be great to see you there. But to the show's date, and I have to say, I'm really very excited for this one. My love for first-time fund managers is very known, and today's guest really is one of the creme de la creme. So joining me in the hot seat today, I'm thrilled to welcome Lyon Wong. Now Lyon is the founding general partner at Spectrum 28, $170 million Silicon Valley fund that invests in companies who leverage data and computation to create and transform large industries. And prior to Spectrum 28, Lyon was partner at Lightspeed Venture Partners, the $3 billion VC fund with investments in the likes of Snapchat, Nest and Giphy, previous guest on the show, just to name a few.

• 0:42Harry Stebbings?

  And before Lightspeed, Leon spent time with leading Silicon Valley seed fund SV Angel, where he worked with the likes of Ron Conway and David Lee. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Eric Torreberg and Leon's partner Aloc for the introduction to Leon today, without which the show would not have been possible. However, before we meet Leon, as all investors will tell you, one of the keys to doing well in this game is communication. And that's where Angel Loop come in. They are the experts in facilitating communication and data sharing between companies and investors. On the platform, founders track their performance metrics and send out updates to their investors on the state of their business. Investors in turn can then react in real time to help their founders with introductions, follow-on funding and much more. And Angel Loop is free for all investors and only costs $59 per month for companies.

• 1:26Harry Stebbings?

  Right now, they're offering a free two-month trial with the promo code 20minutevc and you can check it out at angeloop.com or in the show notes. And the 20 Minute VC is also supported by Wunder Capital, the award-winning online investment platform that allows individuals to invest in solar energy projects across the US, earning up to 8.5% annually while diversifying your portfolio, curbing pollution and combating global climate change. All you have to do is create an account for free at wundercapital.com/20minetc. That's wundercapital.com/20minetc. Do well by doing good with Wunder Capital. However, enough from me and I'm now delighted to hand over one of the most exciting new first-time fund managers, Leon Wong, founding GP at Spectrum 28.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 2:17Harry Stebbings?

  Leon, fantastic to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining me.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Harry, thanks. It's great to be on the show.

• 2:23Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I'd love to start, say, by hearing a little about you and how you made your way into the venture ecosystem to start with.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think like a lot of people in the valley, I come from an engineering background. I went to the University of Waterloo, started in a fairly technical part of the space at Microsoft, from Microsoft Research, designing search engines and search and storage. So my foray into venture was really around building a company in that space, but applied to healthcare. Because health, health and education were two things that one of the influencers in my life, Bill Gates, was really focused on. So I think in thinking about that, health resonated with me personally, just experienced a lot of health issues. And being on the intersection of East and West, the, the, just what is traditional medicine practice relative to Western medicine? That's always been a topic on my mind. How do you merge the two? So that's, uh, that's the company I started.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  So after that company was acquired, moved into venture, and I think venture really started to try and figure out where in venture exactly should I play?

• 3:23Harry Stebbings?

  And I'm intrigued with that kind of operational experience. Do you feel it's something that I always debate internally for myself? Do you feel that all VCs need operational experience? Or what do you think is the best kind of and quickest onboarding process for institutional investors?

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I actually think contrary to a common belief that you, you must be a great operator to be a great investor. I actually believe the opposite, which is that not all great operators are naturally going to be good investors. And in fact, your investment career should be developed and honed by investing through, through that experience. And it's a fairly unique and specialized skill, but obviously the more you understand about different parts of the business, the better you're going to be at sifting out the BS from reality. I think the best investors stem from actually being investors. So the earlier in venture that you start investing, the better you're going to be over the long term. So I, I don't think doing a career, a lifetime career in

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Another field and then switching over as a late stage career change is the common way to go. There are exception cases, but I think the the best way institutions should think about it and for yourself is the sooner you get investment exposure, the better you're gonna know whether you're you're good or not, and you'll know what skills to develop. It's like being an entrepreneur. Working in a big corporation for twenty years and then becoming an entrepreneur, you're still gonna be learning the same things as if you were in school and you graduated and you were twenty four and you're doing the starting a company. There's common skills you're gonna need to learn, even though you're just starting out.

• 4:53Harry Stebbings?

  And which way do you think the VC world is going? Often I hear that, you know, operating experience is becoming more and more important. Do you do you feel that in ten years' time, actually, we will have a proliferation of career VCs? Or do you think it'll mostly be operational?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  The key is having an operational network is critical. But having operational experience, so I have operational experience, but that's now at least six, seven years in the past because I've been doing venture for six, seven years. So I think for every single instance where you have someone who was the great operator, they were. And I think as venture will get more competitive, and I think this is why we started a fund. There's a new shift to delivery. The more real time your operational relevance is, the more powerful it's gonna be. So it's about not having to draw on your own experience from a decade past, but who in your network is going to be able to provide experience right now that is currently operating? I think that's more powerful. So I think having an operational network is key,

• 5:50Speaker 02

  but not necessarily you have to be the one to have experienced all aspects of operating and you to be imparting the wisdom yourself. I don't think that's the that in ten years from now, I don't think that that will be as competitive as having a real time network of operators.

• 6:04Harry Stebbings?

  And I'm so pleased you said about the fund there because I wanna congratulate you on the incredible fundraise with Spectrum twenty eight. Fantastic news and thoroughly well deserved. But I'd love to hear about the raise itself and how it was for you raising in this venture environment.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so definitely there's been a shift. I mean, we went from things were exceptionally good towards the beginning of twenty fifteen to things are incredibly rocky in terms of. The start of 2016. I think a lot of that has changed the LP mindset to be much more conservative and much more focused on not just deploying capital and if you can see deals to deploy capital, but really are you able to return that capital? Do these, do your investments have exit potential? And will they survive the longer period in the market? And I think so that has really cooled down in terms of the LP market overall. They look a lot more on the substance behind how are you going

• 7:02Speaker 02

  to invest into some of the best deals, not just are you able to invest in the quantity of deals? So I think it's, there's been a big shift.

• 7:09Harry Stebbings?

  Did the shift alter your target raise?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  So our target raise was closer to 125 and I think we continually increased it because of thinking for the long term, there were LPs that we wanted to include in this fund to start building a relationship in order to raise a larger fund later. But really for us, for two, for two GP fund, we were starting with 125 as the right amount. And I think between 125, 150 for a two GP fund is reasonably what we feel we could deploy with quality. So ended up bringing it to 170 because we also brought on some team members we felt were exceptional and we could, we could be confident deploying that extra amount.

• 7:47Harry Stebbings?

  In terms of the kind of VC environment itself, and we spoke about kind of the intersection of LPs and GPs, where do you see kind of the clusters in VC environments and where do you think there are crunches? Obviously with the 175, it suggests that you think there's a crunch at that range. But what's your kind of take on the market overview at this time?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  So starting at the late stage, interestingly, I've had venture experience from seed to early stage to late stage. So I think of the, of the many people, I've actually moved across these these horizontal stages and experienced, experienced a slice of each of them. So I think I can bring all that together and see that there is an efficiency curve. So there's no definitive optimal stage because if you're on that efficiency curve and you're investing in the late stage, it's as good as investing in the early stage, even if your multiple isn't as high. So not in Hundred X, but you're really faster to market and your your IRR can be just as good. So I think anywhere in the efficiency curve, you're going to see superior returns.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Now, where on that curve is there less capital? I think the later stage, starting with the later stage, with companies being private longer. And obviously, there was the exception with Nutanix with such a great IPO. But in general, with companies remaining private longer, public investors have moved towards investing in these private rounds at valuations that are traditionally meant for companies that were IPO, IPO targets already. In that case, you have a lot more capital competing in the late stage. So just in terms of amount of capital, it's high because exits are held longer. Then on the seed stage, because I think you have this trend of operators that are also

• 9:30Speaker 02

  investing out of their individual checkbooks and these range from zero to, zero to five million, for example, you have a lot of investment activity in the pre-seed. You have a lot of capital dollars available for deployment in the pre-seed and seed stages. And in fact, you'll notice this in the, in the incubators, there's a massive increase in number of companies, but it's the demand, the demand is totally met by the supply of capital. Where you see capital gaps are in phases after that, where you have the larger seeds, seeds that require larger amounts of capital because they're tackling something harder. So in the healthcare space or you're building a core technology. And I think after the series A, when you're looking at, do you have a company that has

• 10:14Speaker 02

  hit, hit the top one to two companies in that industry? Or you have a company that has the potential, but still needs to develop and grow the team? I think that team building growth phase post-series A are, these two areas lack the volume of capital that you have on the other extremes between the latency. So in terms of pure capital availability, post-A and post-seed are where there's less capital. So those two represent opportunities for you to add capital in.

• 10:39Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. Does, I'm, I'm intrigued as a kind of GP now at Spectrum 28 and, you know, although not kind of immediately at the front of mind, you know, at the end of the day for LPs, it's Cash on cash. And so I'm intrigued, does the extended kind of longevity to private to public companies and to access, does that concern you?

• 10:58Speaker 02

  I think it concerns me because it concerns the LPs. Now, how we address that is that's why part of the strategy for Spectrum twenty eight is that we are a hybrid. We're not of the traditional funds that were formed decades ago, horizontal stage investors. So we don't say we only invest in seed, we only invest in A. We are investing across stage, but that would mean you invest in everything, which is also not the case. So you have on the other extreme, you have funds that do invest across stage, but only invest in a certain vertical. We're a hybrid of the two. We invest across stage, but we don't limit ourselves to a single vertical. We invest in, we open up and activate a new vertical per quarter. So over time, we invest in multiple verticals, multiple industries.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  So that way we have the flexibility in case, what if it wasn't the right time to invest in fintech for this whole vintage? And you were mandated to deploy capital, that that doesn't make sense. Or you would have to then not invest at all for a period of two years, which also is not seizing the opportunity. So in our hybrid model allows us to invest in multiple industries across stage and still have focus, but without being constrained on both ends. So that's the experiment we're running. And that's why LP supported us because we're, we have a different playbook.

• 12:11Harry Stebbings?

  Is it not difficult then to implement the same level of focus and build the same kind of pattern recognition if you are specialized in fintech or real estate? And you see thousands of companies, you can kind of measure the data and compare against each other. Is it not difficult with such a broad thesis?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  So for each vertical, when we focus on it, we do get to that equal level of depth. The thing is maintaining that requires a lot of effort. I mean, take a play from the startup world, it's not scalable. It's not infinitely scalable, the way we're running the fund to keep expanding the areas with this type of uh, structure because we invest a lot of effort to ramping it up. However, for first fund, we have to, we're providing way more value and going much deeper than we otherwise would because we're trying to build the reputation of delivering on that. Value and that's that's what I think. So you say LPs care about cash on cash return. But what does the what do the founders care about?

• 13:07Speaker 02

  They don't care about your cash on cash return and how successful you were in making money as a fund. They care about how impactful were you to them as a company, growing them and adding actual concrete value? And that reputation is what's going to take, reputation is what we're focused on building in a vet ahead of the cash on cash return. So the LPs that invest in us have to believe that if we develop that reputation and we're the best at delivering, the cash on cash return will catch up, if not in this fund, in the next one. So it has to have to play a longer term game to do that because we are going to spend a lot of our. So we reinvest a lot of our fund resources into developing those verticals. That's why we have some special strategies for that.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  So that's the key, I think, is we invest a lot into those verticals to get to the same level of depth. But what's surprising is that once you've established that depth, monitoring it and maintaining the relationships are a lot easier and a lot less expensive than it was to create in the first place. So we're able to then shift the resources to another area.

• 14:09Harry Stebbings?

  You said about VC value add there and it's always an interesting one for me with kind of the evolving ecosystem. So I'm really intrigued to hear your thoughts on kind of VC value add now. Whether you think actually the old I'll introduce you to people and I'll give you my wise advice is outdated. And how you think we'll see kind of innovations on the VC value add model?

• 14:28Speaker 02

  So I don't think introductions and advice is outdated. I do think there's a small, select group of people that do that extremely well, that have exceptional advice. And there's a small group of people that will be able to introduce you to new connections that are fairly coveted. And I do think those are valuable. So I don't think that that's outdated. It's just that it's to a very small group, a much smaller group than you might imagine. Those are invaluable to have. So that's a definite component of the venture team I would assemble if I'm an entrepreneur and have at the table. However, I think on the other side of it is when you're trying to meet these milestones, you're growing the business and you need, there are some, there are key metrics in the business that you need to develop and that's what we've.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Focus on, which is of those key metrics, which are the ones that we're uniquely going to be able to move the needle on? And how can we really add value that's in a measurable way? Because the advice in those ones, we can, we can refer to our network to provide some of that. So I think that's where we differentiate and we hold ourselves accountable to, because that's what's needed to really be competitive.

• 15:32Harry Stebbings?

  In terms of being competitive there and, and kind of establishing a mind share with entrepreneurs and other VCs. There's a new fund being Spectrum twenty eight. How do you look to establish that mind share with the entrepreneurs and the VCs?

• 15:44Speaker 02

  I think the only way you establish a reputation is actually by doing what you're saying. And in fact, that's why we announced our press launch of the fund one year after we started investing. Because we didn't believe that raising a fund saying, hey, world, we got a lot of money, we're about to do X, Y, Z. Is this is not our style? We wanted to be that we got the money, we invested, we actually deployed the capital and helped these companies. And a year later, we said, hey, guys, this is what we've done. So that the companies we referenced in our press, in our launch, you could call up and talk to those founders and then ask them, pin them down and say, stack rank these guys against other people you've worked with, what exactly have they done? And press them. And that I think is the way you build a reputation by actually delivering.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  And it's, it's really by talking to the founders and seeing what we've actually done. It's a slower process, but I think that's how you build something more sustainable.

• 16:35Harry Stebbings?

  In terms of kind of building the team, you said about kind of what founders should look for and how kind of, what do you call it, introductions and advice should be a core component of that. In terms of your team building internally with Spectrum twenty eight, how, how did you look to build the best team you could? And what did you see as the core components to building the best venture fund?

• 16:55Speaker 02

  That's a great question, because I think there's a, there's a propensity, there's a thought, there's a thought in venture that venture should be done by individuals. It's an individual sport and you work at it alone. So you could be successful, you just be alone and do that because it's about your own star quality. And so really the question we posed ourselves as a team, having been on some teams, myself, I've had the fortunate opportunity of working with some teams. That really have exceptional teamwork. The question is, could you build a team that is actually team oriented versus stars? So the two, the two ends of the spectrum are stars versus team players. Can you incentivize and create a structure where you have that teamwork? Because that's how you create an institution.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Otherwise, if you have stars, once the stars leave, you don't have something that remains as an organization. And our goal, even though first time fund, our goal when Kent and I started was to make something. He, he comes from Goldman, so the background is to create something long lasting like that. How could you create something as an institution? Or like Benchmark, where you have the leaders of the organization still being able to perform at their peak, but they left at their peak of their career and, and passed it on to the successors. So, so I think those things we thought about in mind even for our first fund. And that's tried to how, that's biased how we select the team. And then ALO, for example, is from Benchmark. That's selected because of that cultural aspect was really important to us and how he approaches that

• 18:20Speaker 02

  and what he brings to gel on the team. And I think that's the core way we want to operate. So for an instance, when we all focus on it, in a typical venture firm, team members focus each on their own area. You, you hunt what you kill, or whatever the terminology is. So you don't step on each other's turf and you, you, everyone pees on their own hydrant kind of thing. But in, in our, in our world, we all look at the same area. So we all decide we're all going to tackle this. So who gets credit? Who gets credit for the work? And in the model where if it's not that we all get credit and we all can see that contribution adding up to more, one plus one equals three, that's not going to work if we're all fighting for the credit.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  And I think that, that is what we train our LPs on and pass through, which is that we're adding to that. We're all coming from a different angle. One's looking at it from an infrastructure angle, one's looking at it from consumer marketplace angle, and one's looking at it from kind of a business industry angle. But we all need to converge on that. And regardless of who takes that board seat or who ends up being interfaced with the company, we all need to get credit for that. And that's something traditionally very difficult for venture firms to do, because all credit just falls to. The one person. So we've taken that and institutionalizing with the team of how credit and recognition is dispersed. Has been something we've had to explicitly architect in.

• 19:39Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. No, I had Andy Ratcliffe from Benchmark on the show and he said that kind of inherent integration of the team and kind of lack of VC persona, uh, it was inherent to their success at Benchmark. So I completely agree with you there. In in terms of uh, next, I'd love to dive into a quickfire round with you. So I say a short statement and then you give me your immediate thoughts. About sixty seconds per one. How does that sound?

• 20:02Speaker 02

  All right, sounds good.

• 20:03Harry Stebbings?

  So let's start with self-driving cars. How long until mass proliferation? A really hard question to start.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  I think seven years.

• 20:11Harry Stebbings?

  Seven years, not six, seven, okay. Uh, why seven?

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Well, first I like odd numbers. No, kidding aside, I I think that it it is not, it's not a two, three year away problem. But I don't think it's a decade a long problem. But by mass, I think it could be mass proliferation, I'll add a caveat, like mass proliferation for warehouses. Like, I think if you're a sub picking area, I think you have mass proliferation there, but world global domination of every nook and crannies, then then yes, push that out further because you don't even have that with the mobile phones.

• 20:42Harry Stebbings?

  Your favorite book and why?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  I like Meditations by Marcus Aurelius because that book is about anti-hype, how not to be hyped. I mean, he's the ruler of the Roman Kingdom at the height of it. So uh, he has all the power in the world and try not to get caught up in that and just seeing things for how they are more more grounded down to earth, I think has been very valuable in a time of fun launch where everything is hyped up beyond expectation and just staying grounded. At the end of the day, what we're trying to do versus what we're getting picked up in in the in the public is very different. So I think that that's been a good reminder book for me recently.

• 21:15Harry Stebbings?

  AI, positive or negative on the future of jobs? Will we all be unemployed?

• 21:19Speaker 02

  So jobs is about humans. Humans are always going to find something to do. By definition, you'll never be unemployed because humans are going to figure that out. So do I believe humans will figure shit out? Yes. Will the job look like exactly as today? Will humans have to change and evolve? Quite possibly. So can you rest on your laurels and expect the world to stay the same? Like, I don't think. So I'm glad I would be glad for any change that AI propelled us into. But I'm confident in our ability to change and evolve in the same rate or beyond to stay ahead of it.

• 21:50Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. You know, I'm a big fan of, I think it was Maynard Keynes, humans wants and needs are infinite. And I think we just adjust to them with time.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  The more things that can push us to change, the better because I I feel like we are, we're kind of resting on our like laurels now. We're not pushing ourselves as much. We're kind of complacent in our generation. And maybe that's just the frustration I feel overall, but I really feel we could push ourselves as a whole as a society. If we had more challenges together as a as a planet, we would galvanize and do stuff together. So I think I think we should bring it on. We should try and push ourselves to evolve faster.

• 22:26Harry Stebbings?

  And then your favorite blog or newsletter?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  I actually like Medium and Quora in a more organic way that's less structured. So actually, I like it being less curated. So I find that many blogs and those ones curate and tends to be a single voice. Any voice has a lens and a tint to it. So I like to mine kind of the community and follow through a thread of thinking and see how it evolves with different voices commenting on it or driving it, which is what Medium and Quora do. So I tend to like to consume thoughts that way.

• 22:56Harry Stebbings?

  And then let's finish today on your most recent investment and why you said yes.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  So our most recent investment is one that solves or attempts to solve the problem of medical records. How do you get access to those bloody things without the pain of fax? I don't even have a fax machine anymore. Faxing your information and buying a fax machine from a garage sale, faxing it back and forth, get my medical records. I mean, I just had a kid recently, so I got to get all these vaccination records. It's just a tremendous pain. So our latest investment is in a patient bank, a company to solve that. The question is, so many companies, there's, when you open that closet, there's so many dead bodies. There's so many companies that have tried and failed that. So it's it's really, I mean, why we did this investment is we felt this team, you know where the dead bodies are, but you got, this problem needs to be solved.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  We just believe they can figure out a way through it, but it's a, it's just one of those problems where you you wish that should be gone by now.

• 23:47Harry Stebbings?

  Nightmare medical records. But Lyon, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Seriously, amazing to hear about the establishment of Spectrum twenty eight. I wish you all the best for the future and I can't thank you enough for sharing the journey with us.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Thank you, Harry. Look forward to catching up soon.

• 24:03Harry Stebbings?

  What a fantastic show that was with Lyon and so great to hear the origin stories for him with Spectrum and what an exciting part lies ahead for Lyon and the team. Again, a huge thanks to Eric Torrenberg and Leon's partner Alok for the introduction. So grateful for that. And if you love the show today and do not want to leave the world of the 20 Minute VC, then you can add me on Snapchat @HStubbings or sign up for the newsletter on the20minutavec.com. That way you never have to miss an episode or an update from us. However, before we leave you today, if you're a founder or an investor, Angel Loop is a must. It's the leading post-funding management platform for private market investors and their portfolio companies. They help investors manage and track their portfolio companies on the cloud while providing them with access to their investments' performance data.

• 24:44Harry Stebbings?

  Angel Loop helps founders of startups track their performance, manage their cap table and keep their investors in the loop. Investors get free access to the platform while their portfolio companies pay only $59 per month and you can use or share the promo code 20MINUTVC to get your portfolio companies online with a two-month trial. Also, do not forget to check out Wunder Capital, the award-winning online investment platform that allows individuals to invest in solar energy projects across the US, earning up to 8.5% annually while diversifying their portfolio, curbing pollution and combating global climate change. All you have to do is create an account for free at wundercapital.com/20minutavecallinletters. That's wundercapital.com/20minutavecallinletters. Do well by doing good with Wunder Capital.

• 25:29Harry Stebbings?

  As always, I so appreciate all the support. You can always email me [email protected] and I'm so excited to bring you Friday's episode.