20VC: Why More People Should Be Entrepreneurs & How Do You Know When You Are Ready with Matt Clifford @ Entrepreneur First

Matt Clifford is co-founder and CEO of Entrepreneur First, Europe's leading pre-seed investment programme for founders of deep technology startups. Founded in 2011, EF backs the world's top technical talent pre-company. EF's startups have raised over $100m in funding and are breaking ground in artificial intelligence, robotics and infrastructure, among other fields. Outside EF, he is co-founder and non-executive director of Code First Girls and non-executive director of Techfortrade. Before starting EF, Matt worked at McKinsey & Co. as a strategy consultant, and studied at the University of Cambridge and at MIT. In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How did Matt come to found the world's top technical talent pre-company programme? 2.) Should everyone be an entrepreneur? How can a founder determine whether this is the right path for them? Can entrepreneurialism be taught or is it an innate skill within? 3.) What does Matt think of the idea and fear of many founders that they are simply not ready? How do we know when one is ready? What are the signs? 4.) How important is mindset for founders? Matt has previously stated the importance of a growth mindset? What does he mean by this and how does he advise founders to approach this? 5.) What is the most common mistake Matt sees entrepreneurs in EF make? How does he help to combat this? 6.) What does the future of work look like? Where will jobs be at this century? Items Mentioned In Today’s Episode: Matt's Fave Book: Sapiens (Same as Parker Thompson @ AngelList) Matt's Fave Blog: Marginal Revolution Matt's Most Recent Investment: Cloud NC, Third Eye As always you can follow The Twenty Minute VC, Harry and Matt on Twitter here! If you would like to see a more colourful side to Harry with many a mojito session, you can follow him on Instagram here! The Twenty Minute VC is brought to you by Leesa, the Warby Parker or TOMS shoes of the mattress industry. Lees have done away with the terrible mattress showroom buying experience by creating a luxury premium foam mattress that is order completely online and ships for free to your doorstep. The 10 inch mattress comes in all sizes and is engineered with 3 unique foam layers for a universal, adaptive feel, including 2 inches of memory foam and 2 inches of a really cool latex foam called Avena, design to keep you cool. All Leesa mattresses are 100% US or UK made and for every 10 mattresses they sell, they donate one to a shelter. Go to Leesa.com/VC and enter the promo code VC75 to get $75 off!\

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  We are back with another episode of the 20 Minute VC. I'm your host, Harry Stebbings. And for all of those that have not, add me on Snapchat @HStebbings for raucous VC debates, masterclass mojito making and startup valuation analysis. However, on with the show today, and I'm thrilled to welcome Matt Clifford, founder and CEO at Entrepreneur First, Europe's leading pre-seed investment programme for founders of deep tech startups. Founded in 2011, Entrepreneur First pioneered a world-first investment model which backs the world's top technical talent pre-company. And entrepreneur-first startups have raised over $100 million of external funding and are breaking ground in artificial intelligence, robotics and

• 0:42Harry Stebbings?

  infrastructure, among other fields. And before starting at Entrepreneur First, Matt worked at McKinsey as a strategy consultant and studied at the likes of Cambridge and MIT. And I have to say Entrepreneur First really are my top pick for accelerators. I'm so impressed with all they've achieved and cannot wait to see their portfolio companies. However, before we jump into the show today, remember we are starting each sponsor segment with a "Did you know"? So today's "Did you know" is, "Did you know the average person wakes up six times a night"? Well, I can guarantee you, you will not do that if you have a Leesa mattress, as they are expertly crafted with three distinct layers, one of memory foam and one of latex light foam, designed to keep you cool at night. They also completely

• 1:23Harry Stebbings?

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• 2:05Harry Stebbings?

  articles every day. However, back to the show today, and I'm delighted to be joined by the main man, Matt Clifford at Entrepreneur First.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 2:21Harry Stebbings?

  Matt, absolutely fantastic to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining me today. Having had Alice on the show before, it really is great to have you here. Very sincerely, what you've put together on this is pretty remarkable.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Thank you very much for having me.

• 2:33Harry Stebbings?

  So talk to me, Matt. We've got Cambridge, we've got MIT, McKinsey. It would have been very easy for you to continue down this very traditional and very successful path. So what caused the pivotal shift to founding Entrepreneur First? And what was that aha moment for you?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Well, actually, it's funny that you should have missed those credentials or badges, if you like, in that my most popular, I should probably say only popular, blog post is a blog post called, "Don't Be A Badge Collector", written to aspiring founders, but it really does apply, I suppose, to my own and I think to Alice's story as well. In the, I suppose what we're saying and what we believe founding thesis of EF is that the way that European society has evolved is such that the most ambitious people in our society almost see their careers as a succession of more badges to collect. You know, tick off doing well at schools, that you can tick off doing well at universities,

• 3:30Speaker 02

  that you can tick off getting a great first job, that you can tick off getting a promotion, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think from relatively early on in my kind of career, I felt that there had to be something else and that actually badge collecting, you know, satisfying as it was and, you know, kind of as twinkly as it made your CV, it wasn't really doing enough. And so for me, starting Entrepreneur First was really about how do I have impact? How do I kind of scale my impact beyond what would be possible through a conventional career?

• 4:05Harry Stebbings?

  Hmm, absolutely. And I want to start off then with a brief synopsis of Entrepreneur First, or EF as we might refer to it today. For those that maybe don't know, maybe in the US, can you explain maybe one or two minutes on EF and what you do and how you're different?

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So Entrepreneur First is a new way of building technology companies that in many ways throws some of the conventional wisdom of venture capital out of the window. So if you talk to any VC and ask them what they look for, immediately go for the team. Actually, we agree with that. But if you ask them what they mean by a good team, you'll probably very quickly get to some answer about how they met and how they've known each other for years and how they've worked together before. EF basically says, actually, that bias towards teams that met in their dorm at Stanford or, you know, on their first day at Google, comes from the fact that the data set through which we can view the world as venture capitalists is just too small.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  So all the conventional wisdom about how good teams form come from a world where very few people became entrepreneurs. But now we're moving into a world where many more people will be entrepreneurs and many more people should be entrepreneurs. And that actually requires a new view of how to build companies. And that's what we want EF to be. So practically, what that means is that rather than putting up a sign and saying, "Hey, if you've got a great team with a great idea and a great product, come to us and we'll give you some money", instead we say, "If you're a great individual pre-company, then we, I think uniquely, are willing to take a bet on you, both financially and with our time, purely on the basis of your talent and your ambition, not on the basis of your company or your team or your business plan.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  So we'll take you pre-team, pre kind of product, and we'll work with you very intensively for six months to help you build a team with the other people that we select, choose an idea, develop a product, get that to market and raise some seed funding."

• 6:00Harry Stebbings?

  And I'm really, I'm really intrigued there, just unpacking one thing. You said that, you know, there's going to be a big increase in entrepreneurs and stay society. So I'm intrigued as to what's causing this increase in entrepreneurship? And then also whether everyone should be an entrepreneur?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Well, I'll take the second one first, because that's really easy. No, everyone should not be an entrepreneur.

• 6:18Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  And I think sometimes our message gets confused with with that idea, uh, which is something we wanna push back against very hard. So we absolutely do not believe that everyone should be an entrepreneur. What we actually believe is that the most talented and ambitious people in a society ought to be an entrepreneur. One of our kind of founding beliefs is that in any given society at any given time, uh, there becomes a set of almost default career paths. You know, the well-worn paths that people take after university or whatever the relevant, um, you know, kind of coming of age moment is. We think that in Europe, certainly in in the UK, for a very long time, that default path for the most ambitious people has been financial services, professional services.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Our mission is to change that to to founding, but only for people who are unusually ambitious. Uh, and and that kind of brings me to answer the the first part of your question, which is, why is there an increase in entrepreneurship? I suppose I would slightly tweak that and say, why is there an increase in entrepreneurship among the most ambitious people? And I think the simple answer is simply because this is the first time in human history that it's been possible to so radically scale your impact through technology. You know, I I always joke, um, with our founders at the start of the programme. If Napoleon were alive today, he wouldn't bother invading Europe, he could just start to start up.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  And and what I mean by that is that we live in the first era in human history in which it's been possible to reach a billion people with a product that you can make in your bedroom. I mean, this is the ultimate meritocracy in a sense. Now, I think there are reasons why we might say that isn't a meritocracy, but in the sense of the ability to access scale, the ability to achieve scale through technology. That is a, that ought to be catnip to ambitious people. Um, ambitious people ought to look at the ability to scale through technology and say, I need to be part of that.

• 8:07Harry Stebbings?

  And and you you mentioned entrepreneurship there, and and then I I have to ask, can entrepreneurialism be taught? Or is it an innate skill within oneself?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  I mean, I I don't think it's either. I mean, we we've often talked to a entrepreneur first about um your your abilities are a found as a founder, something that you discover by being a founder. Uh I don't think they're either latent within you at birth and you you know, you just uh you are or you're not, nor do I believe that you can sit down in a classroom and be taught it. What I would say is that how strong your entrepreneurial skills are, how kind of strong your uh abilities are as a founder is is a kind of almost, suppose in technical terms, it's procedurally generated. It it happens as a result of the actions you take by being a founder. And you know, so the way I encourage people to think about it is, it may well be that they're they have what it takes to be a superb founder,

• 9:00Speaker 02

  but the only way they can find out is by trying. Um there is no test you can take. Um there is no um you know, personality psychographic, multiple choice quiz that will tell you whether you're a founder. Really, the only way to find out is by trying because you get better by being one.

• 9:16Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm. And you mentioned the skills and abilities there and how they kind of grow within you from founding. So I'm really intrigued then, because a lot of founders say to me, you know, I'd love to start a startup, but I don't think I have the skills. I'm just not ready. So I'm intrigued to what you think ready is and and how we know when one is ready. What are the signs?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so if you go back to this idea of badge collecting, the uh on the side of the badge collectors, the most uh you know, dangerous weapon or the most dangerous obstacle to actually getting started and being a founder is this idea of readiness. I think it's very, very dangerous and very, very negative for people to believe that they need to wait until they're in inverted commas, ready before they start to start up. I don't believe that anyone is ready. Um I think actually what founding a company throws at you is so unpredictable and so challenging and so vast in its variety, that actually being ready is is almost impossible. Which is again, why I say that you discover your abilities. You know, what what it means to be a great entrepreneur

• 10:18Speaker 02

  actually varies from from startup to startup. And so I think waiting for readiness is is the ultimate red herring. Uh. And in fact, if you go back and you look at the stories of the really great founders, you know, the the in in one sense, they were ready by definition in that they succeeded. But also, if you look at who they were and and what their background was and what their skills were, you'd have to say that they weren't qualified in any uh normal sense of the word. It just so happened that because of who they were intrinsically, they were able to become ready through through that process of discovery.

• 10:51Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm. I always think of Travis Kalanick with that. He had no kind of innate knowledge of the taxi industry globally, but his abilities as a founder and as a person allowed him to scale Uber to where it is.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 11:02Harry Stebbings?

  Do you then subscribe to, I think it's Reid Hoffman's thesis, that if you're not embarrassed by the first shipment of your product, then it's too late?

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I think that's probably right. I mean, we we really live and breathe rapid iteration entrepreneur first. That's both true in a fairly conventional sense, you know, so product strategy, like you were saying, you know, don't don't market research everything to death, just you know, just release it and see what happens, you know, the Reid Hoffman point. But at EF, that applies also to how we build teams and and how we build ideas is also a process of iteration and a process of not waiting until you're a hundred percent confident in uh in a given team or an idea. But going after it, you know, strong beliefs, weak clear hell.

• 11:44Harry Stebbings?

  I'm really intrigued there. We we spoke about ideas and this isn't in the schedule, but I'm I'm fascinated by it. Because obviously, as we said with EF, people in entrepreneurs and amazing individuals come without ideas in some cases. How do you guys approach the idea creation phase?

• 11:58Speaker 02

  When we say that we'll take people pre idea, we don't mean that they shouldn't come with ideas or even that they don't come with ideas. What we mean is that the basis of evaluation, the reason that we're selecting people is not not the ideas that they come with. So we're not saying, you know, that sounds that sounds like a terrible idea, that sounds like a good idea. Where the ideas come from at EF is an idea that we uh call edge. And what we mean by edge is what is a given person's uh competitive advantage that comes out of their skills or or knowledge or experience, uh which gives them the potential to be globally competitive in in some way. So edge uh is, you know, kind of key to everything we do, right through from how we

• 12:41Speaker 02

  find and select people for the program, right through to how they develop ideas and ultimately to how they, you know, raise funding at the end. And what we try and do during the process of selection is to make sure that our cohort is full of people who have really clear competitive edges in one or more areas. Often that's technical, they may be, you know, they may have a very, very clear set of abilities in a particular technical field. Sometimes it's about a domain or a problem where they kind of may have some specialist knowledge. Where the ideas themselves come from, how you go from edge to idea, is that effectively you have a hundred extraordinarily small, extraordinarily ambitious, extraordinarily determined people all in a room together at the start of the program.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  And they all talk about what their edges are. And what we've discovered is that by having the right environment and the right people and the right vocabulary so that people can say, well, I have an edge in deep neural networks. So, well, I have an edge in agriculture. It's like, okay, cool. Is there any interesting idea that comes out from the intersection of our edges? And if there is, great, let's pursue that. If there's not, let's just move on. And so that really the ideas come from this iterative process of people thinking hard about what their edge, what their competitive advantage might be and comparing and discussing that with the others in the cohort.

• 13:59Harry Stebbings?

  And talking of kind of edges and competitive advantages, you mentioned there. You have said before, in a brilliant, I think blog post it was, that mindset trumps skill. So how should founders approach mindset? I think you've spoken before about kind of long-termism, growth mindsets. So what's your take on this?

• 14:17Speaker 02

  I think probably one of the mistakes that we made at the start of this process of building Entrepreneur First was we probably overrated raw intellect. So it's very easy to meet people and be blown away by how smart they are and, you know, that can be very impressive. What we found is that actually intellect is very important, smart, you know, being able to solve problems is very important. But compared to the ability to keep going in the face of obstacles, compared to being able to find a way when other people would think there isn't a way, you know, to improve and adapt in the face of difficult feedback, insight's just not that important relative to mindset. So now when we select people.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  We're looking really for a combination of things. Yes, we're looking for intellect. Yes, we're looking for this idea of edge, but we're also increasingly adapting our selection process to make sure that we're also looking more mindset related skills or attributes, really around resilience, as you say, around determination and growth with mindset, leadership, these things.

• 15:20Harry Stebbings?

  I'm intrigued because you you said before also about long termism within mindset. And how do you balance long termism with short term focus and and nailing product shipments and product itself, maybe a new hire? How do you kind of balance the two?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's a it's a really important question. So I think the way we would think about it is that what, you know, we've already talked about kind of people born or made entrepreneurs. I actually, as I said, I think you discover and generate your abilities through what you're doing. And key to that is believing in the mission, you know, the reason why you're doing this this company that you've that you've created. And and the way I would think about the balance then between long term and short term is that I think as a founder, you have to be absolutely resolute, even inflexible on the why, on the on the vision. And that bit has to be extremely long term because you have to believe that it's going to take a long time to have the kind of impact that that we care about and that we hope our founders care about. And so what I would say is that

• 16:20Speaker 02

  that bit has to be the same. That's got to be long term. It's got to be inflexible. What has to be flexible, what has to be iterated, what has to be responsive to data and feedback is the how and the what. So as long as that why stays constant and you know where you're going and you believe wholeheartedly in that, then I think you have to be willing to drop even, you know, quite deeper held ideas about, you know, about the methods that will get you there. And again, that idea that I mentioned already before, you know, strong beliefs, weakly held. You have to go all in, but be willing to respond to the evidence.

• 16:50Harry Stebbings?

  And I want to touch on one final thing on entrepreneurship before we dive into a future of EF aspect. And that's one element that you've talked about, and that's the step change. So what fuel learnings from seeing, I think, two hundred and fifty founders pass through EF with this belief that the step change is close and the step change will have maximum output and maximum effectiveness. What's the take on the step change?

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Well, I think we believe that there is a set of technologies that are being developed now or in the early stages of being adopted now that are going to have a radical, radical impact on how the world works. Our belief is that The existence of these technologies, the earliness of their adoption, provides a set of opportunities for people who understand them and who are very ambitious. So, you know, we like to talk about, you know, the kinds of companies that we build at EF. They're part of the next wave. We want them to be companies that are working with the frontier of what's possible.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  And the reason for that is that, you know, I do think you have to have a sense of mission in building a company. And I actually think that the possibilities that are created and generated by, you know, next stage, step change, deep technologies, whatever you want to call them, that's really exciting.

• 18:10Harry Stebbings?

  And I want to finish then on the future of EF, this before we dive into a quick fire. And you're expanding into Singapore. So I'm intrigued, what's it about one location like Singapore that allows it to be ripe for disruption with EF over maybe another?

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So I've already said that, you know, I think you need a sense of mission to be a founder. And, you know, obviously EF is very much a kind of mission-driven company too. And our mission is, goes back to that very first thing we talked about, which is about what do careers look like in this century? And what does ambition look like in this century? So our kind of deep belief is that entrepreneur first should work wherever there is a pool of talent that is really extraordinary, both in its technical ability and its ambition. Where there is an emerging startup ecosystem, that means that there's the kind of support and capital around it to allow the ambition to flourish.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  And third, where there's a supportive business environment in which, you know, it's possible to build on scale companies. You know, for us, Singapore ticked those boxes. You know, you have extraordinary technical talent, both within Singapore and within the kind of broader region. Two, you have an emerging VC and startup ecosystem that's really just starting to take off, but it's still early enough that it's not played out. And third, it's, you know, a very easy place to do business. So when we thought about Singapore, it ticked the boxes. You know, what was exciting for us is that it did a better job of that than. And some places that may seem more obvious. So like, one thing people often ask is, is would it make sense to open EF in Silicon Valley? And we always say no. And and the reason is, you know, go back to that idea I talked about earlier of default career paths.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  And our mission at Entrepreneur First is to shift the default career path into founding. But I think that's already done in Silicon Valley. I think in Silicon Valley, you have a world where the default career path for ambitious people is very much to found companies. Absolutely. So we don't really need to be there. So our job is to be wherever in the world we can have the most impact by being there where it's not played out. And I'm going to finish on a quick fire round now. So I, okay. Absolutely. So your favourite book and why? My favourite book and why? So in terms of fiction, my favourite book is The Name of the Rose by Mertweke. And the reason I love that book so much is I love how deeply learned it is and opens up a world that I

• 20:36Speaker 02

  knew very little about, while at the same time actually touching on some very basic and deep human questions about uh that we would all recognise, even though we wouldn't recognise necessarily the life of the medieval monk, which is the setting in which it's presented. And what about nonfiction? The the book that comes to mind is the book Sapiens, uh which I read last year. What I loved about that book is it's a great example of how a book can challenge some really foundational assumptions that you have, and in the process help you kind of reframe a lot of big questions uh in totally new ways. It's quite liberating and exciting to find a book like that. And then the sector you're most excited about and why?

• 21:17Speaker 02

  So I'm really excited about the potential for technology to have an impact in sectors that have been largely untouched or much less touched by innovation. So I'm particularly thinking about things like. Politics and government, political organisation, that sort of thing. We've not yet had an EF company work in that space. But I believe that over the next ten years, we will see startups becoming radically innovative in fields like social policy, immigration, and that sort of thing. And I think that's going to be absolutely extraordinary.

• 21:56Harry Stebbings?

  What's the most common mistake you see entrepreneurs make?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  I think the single most important thing, and it's a cliche, but it's a cliche because it's true, is simply not getting enough feedback and not responding to it. There's always, always more feedback you can get from customers, always more feedback. And it really is customers that count, more customer feedback that you can process and iterate. And the speed of doing that is absolutely critical.

• 22:20Harry Stebbings?

  And then your favourite blog or newsletter?

• 22:22Speaker 02

  So I was a very, very early reader of marginalrevolution.com, which is Tyler Cowen and Alex Tabaroff's blog. I was going to say on economics, but one of the things I love about it is it's actually about absolutely everything. The sheer breadth of material that they cover there has been a source of endless intellectual stimulation for, or at least thirteen years now.

• 22:46Harry Stebbings?

  And this next one has never been asked in a quick fire round before, but we're going to A B test it in the theme of iteration. What's the morning routine look like?

• 22:54Speaker 02

  So I'm a fairly early riser. I get up at six AM every day and make my wife a coffee. And then write my diary. I've been keeping a diary non-stop since I started working at McKinsey, which I find really useful. And then I come into the office because I find, I can't believe I'm saying this, and now my team will come in and disturb me. But I find that if I'm in the office from seven and the rest of the team comes in at nine thirty, then I get an awful lot done that I otherwise wouldn't get done.

• 23:22Harry Stebbings?

  No, that's a cracking question, actually. I love that one. And then let's finish on this, I know what you're going to say here, but the... Most exciting EF company and why, or the EF company you'd most like to have joined if you were an entrepreneur and why, just don't say that like my kids.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Well, it genuinely is hard to pick one because one of the real privileges about EF is that we will get to a such a huge range of founders. I haven't really talked about the companies at all yet, but you know, founders have built and we've helped them build, I think seventy five companies now and you know, they're worth now hundreds of millions of dollars and they're doing things in every field from agriculture to manufacturing to philanthropy to healthcare to education. So it is hard to pick. I do have a soft spot for companies that are using machine learning in interesting ways. And just to pick ones simply from the most recent cohorts, they're not trying to pick an all time favourite. You know, we have a company like Third Eye, which is using machine learning to automate

• 24:24Speaker 02

  the use of CCTV and detection of crime. We have a company like CloudNC, which is using machine learning to automate the way that computer numerically controlled manufacturing works, which could have radical impacts there. We've got a company like Avon AI using machine learning to detect dementia early. So very, very broad range of applications for something like machine learning and I'm just so excited about the impact that could have in the years to come.

• 24:52Harry Stebbings?

  Well, Matt, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It really has been absolutely fantastic to hear yours and EF's incredible journey. So thank you for sharing it with us.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 25:04Harry Stebbings?

  And I'd like to give a huge hand to Matt for giving up his time today to be on the show. So super to have him finally on and very exciting times ahead for Entrepreneur First. And if you enjoyed the show and don't want to miss a piece of the action, then you can add me on Snapchat at H Stebbings, that's Stebbings with two Bs. Or if you never want to miss an episode or an update, but are like Jason Lemkin and not cool enough to have Snapchat yet, then you can sign up for the newsletter on the twenty minute vc dot com. But before we go, today's episode was brought to you by Lisa, in my opinion, the world's best mattress company. And what I find so fascinating about Lisa is how they deliver their mattress. Not only is delivery free to anywhere in the UK, US and Canada, but the mattresses are compressed, boxed and then shipped. And although crazy, it's

• 25:48Harry Stebbings?

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• 26:33Harry Stebbings?

  top dog at Dog Vacay.