20VC: Why I Do Not Regret Taking 'Peter Thiel Money', What Is The Difference Between Leadership & Management & What Conversations Are For The Founding Team Only with Tim Junio, Founder & CEO @ Qadium

Tim Junio is the Co-Founder and CEO @ Qadium, the startup that creates and organizes knowledge about the world's devices. They are backed by some of the best in the business including the likes of Founders Fund (Peter Thiel), NEA (Scott Sandell) and our good friends at Susa Ventures. Prior to Qadium, Tim started his career at the Central Intelligence Agency, and also worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, the RAND Corporation, and DARPA. Tim remains a research affiliate at Stanford, where he lectures and advises students on cybersecurity research topics. In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How Tim made his way from the world of the CIA to founding venture backed, Qadium? 2.) How does Tim view his role as CEO? Why does he view leadership and management as 2 different things? 3.) How does Tim view transparency as a leader? What are the conversations that must only be for the founding team? How are those decisions managed and discussed? 4.) Considering Peter Thiel's recent press coverage how does Tim feel about taking 'Thiel Money'? Why does he think Thiel is one of the most interesting and brilliant minds? What are the challenges for Silicon Valley in eschewing the world of politics for the next 4 years? 5.) What does Tim see as the worst of Silicon Valley? What are the benefits to many 'shallow apps' not getting funded? How does this affect startup economics and hiring programmes? Items Mentioned In Today’s Show: Tim’s Fave Book: Snowcrash Tim’s Fave Blog or Newsletter: Bruce Schneier As always you can follow Harry and The Twenty Minute VC on Twitter here! Likewise, you can follow Harry on Snapchat here for mojito madness and all things 20VC. Intercom is the first to bring messaging products for marketing and customer support together on one integrated platform. With Intercom, businesses can chat directly with prospective customers on their website, engage current users with targeted messages based on their behavior, and provide personal support at scale with an integrated help desk and knowledge base. This is perfect for Businesses that want to help people visiting their website become customers. Marketing and growth teams that want to onboard and retain users by sending the right messages at the right time and Support teams that want to move beyond email to provide personalized, scalable support so simply head over to Intercom.com/20MVC Cooley are the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 50+ years working with VCs. They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund’s lifetime. So to learn more about the #1 most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public. Head over to cooley.com and also at cooleygo.com.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Hello and welcome back to a very special episode of the 20 Minute VC with your host Harry Stebbings, found making mojitos and chilling on Snapchat at H Stebbings with two Bs, and writing some more academic thoughts on Mojito VC.com. I'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback on that. But to the show today, and I'm thrilled to welcome an all-star founder for this Founder's Friday. So joining me in the hot seat today, I'm thrilled to welcome Tim Junior. Tim is the co-founder and CEO at Qadium, the startup that creates and organizes knowledge about the world's devices. They're backed by some of the best in the business, including the Lights of Founders Fund with Peter Thiel, NEA with Scott Sandell, and our good friends at Suits Ventures. Prior to Qadium, Tim started his career at the CIA and also worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defence, the RAND Corporation, and DARPA.

• 0:42Harry Stebbings?

  Tim remains a research affiliate at Stanford, where he lectures and advises students on cybersecurity research topics. And I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Chad and Leo at Suits Ventures for the intro to Tim's day, without which the episode would not have been possible. However, before we dive into the show today, you must check out Intercom. Intercom is the first to bring messaging products for marketing and customer support together on one integrated platform. With Intercom, businesses can chat directly with prospective customers on their website. They can engage current users with targeted messages based on their behaviour and provide personal support at scale with an integrated helpdesk and knowledge base. All products are powered by live customer data, helping businesses avoid the stiff spammy status quo and have real conversations to build real connections throughout the entire customer lifecycle.

• 1:27Harry Stebbings?

  This is perfect for businesses that want to help people visiting their website become customers and marketing and growth teams that want to onboard and retain users by sending the right messages at the right time. So simply head over to intercom.com/20MVC. And speaking of serving your clients better there with Intercom, I've always been a big history man, and so I wanted to talk about Cooley, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world with 50-plus years working with VCs. They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad of issues that arise through a fund's lifecycle. So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public,

• 2:12Harry Stebbings?

  simply head over to Cooley.com and also check them out on Cooleygo.com. However, enough from me, so I'm now delighted to hand over to Tim Junior, founder and CEO at Cadium.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 2:30Harry Stebbings?

  Tim, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show today. A huge thanks to Chad Byers Sosa for the intro. But Tim, thank you so much for joining me today.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  My pleasure.

• 2:38Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I'd love to get started today, Tim, with a little about you because you spent most of your life on the East Coast, first working at CIA and then doing a PhD at UPenn. So talk to me a bit about the founding story and how you came to Found Cadian.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Well, thank you again for having me on the show. Really appreciate it. I have heard wonderful things from both founders and VCs who have been on. So I really appreciate the opportunity to try to get some of our message out. My personal history from having started on the East Coast was largely framed around two careers I thought I was going to have before I ended up in this one. So ending up in Silicon Valley in a tech company was largely a historical accident where when I started my career, as you pointed out, I was working at CIA. I was thinking ahead to spending decades in the intelligence community. And that ultimately changed for a few different reasons. Largely, the job wasn't as satisfying as I thought after a few years. Whereas initially, the kind of learning period and getting involved in all kinds of new

• 3:34Speaker 02

  things that the government has a monopoly on was pretty fantastic. But when I started to think about what it would be like to exist in a large bureaucracy for decades and the kind of repeat iteration games that people play who are interacting over the course of 20 years, it's a highly politicized, very charged environment and wasn't something that I thought was going to be satisfying when I was hitting kind of what I would consider peak points of my career in my 40s, 50s, etc. So I decided to explore other options and I resigned and started my PhD. And I later did a postdoc at Stanford. And in the course of my PhD program, and then when I was going to start my postdoc, I was intending to be a professor and focus on cybersecurity, which was just emerging

• 4:19Speaker 02

  as an issue area. So now you hear about it in the media all the time. But going back to around 2011, 2012, when I was making decisions about next steps for my career, it was still a pretty risky field to go into. And ultimately, I made my decision because... I had options between doing a fellowship at Stanford, at Harvard, at a think tank in DC. And I felt like I understood the government and academia pretty well. But I didn't have a good grasp of technology related to security in the private sector. Since I had never lived in California, my social network was largely dominated by people on the East Coast and the fields that they would go into. And so I ended up going to Stanford for that postdoc.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  And it completely changed the trajectory of my life. To some extent, because of the social environment, I immediately made a lot of friends who work in tech, who work in VC. And it really opened the possibility in my mind to a different kind of career that, in my view, was a lot more meritocratic than things in academia and government. Where it seemed like if you are very smart and hardworking, it's almost impossible to fuck up in working in tech in Silicon Valley. You will have a good outcome if you are a smart and hardworking person. And I valued that very deeply, in addition to having some specific ideas of things that I was interested in testing out. So, sorry, I realize this is a relatively long answer to your question.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  The last chunk of it is, while I was in grad school and doing my postdoc at Stanford, I was also doing consulting work, helping build cyber capabilities for the Defense Department via DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. And so the co-founders of Qadium met while we were all in grad school. And we had some ideas on technology that we wanted to prototype. And so we didn't start Qadium with a specific product idea. We had some prototype ideas and we applied for grants from the Defense Department to begin working on them. And so we didn't take VC money from the beginning. We took military money from the beginning to test out some ideas. And when one of those started being particularly successful, we all doubled down.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  And essentially, I never applied to academic jobs, never applied to be a professor anywhere, because I was sufficiently happy with the progress of the tech that we were building here at Qadium.

• 6:37Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And I think you must be the first people to say military money pre VC. Well, military money at all, probably, on the show, actually. That's a very good point. But I do want to, obviously, co-founder of And a lot of co-founders have never actually been managers before. So I'm really intrigued as to hear from your experiences of what are some of the hardest things that you've had to learn to be as a manager in the transition to being the brilliant founder that you are today of Qadium? And how did you learn them?

• 7:01Speaker 02

  So I'm sure you hear all the time from people who come on the show and who you talk to that it's very, very difficult to understand the job of being the co-founder CEO of a startup. And I mean, this is trite at this point, right? It's in Ben Horowitz's book, all over the place. It is repeatedly hammered into you before you try to do a startup, how hard it is. It is as hard as everybody says, and you cannot actually understand it until you're in the job. It is impossible to empathize, in my opinion, until you're doing it. You can try, but really to have weight on your shoulders of giving absolutely brilliant people this very, very high-risk choice and convincing them to follow your path is one of the most stressful things that you can do.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  So basically, the people who work at Qadium, who are about 40, are extremely technically skilled, mostly out of MIT, Stanford, Caltech, that kind of background, along with multiple PhDs, people who worked at government agencies as well. And convincing them to give up on everything else they could possibly be doing in the world, including extremely lucrative income from big internet companies, to come here and roll the dice was very, very, very challenging. And we have done it, but it puts kind of load on top of you where, oh my God, this company has to be successful, or I just threw all of this human ability into the garbage for years. Of course, that's an exaggeration because we're still learning and developing and getting a lot out of it. But basically, I don't want people to feel like it was a nice chance and a missed opportunity.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  So I guess what I'm characterizing is not actually the management component quite yet to your question, but it's the leadership component. Where one of the first things I figured out in this job is there is this difference between leadership and management. And again, this is almost cliche, but leadership and management really are two different things. And I think the first item that you learn as a co-founder is the leadership component. It's the how do you recruit the best people in the world to follow you? How do you execute on an idea? When things don't seem like they're going well and persevere and push through. But then you have to transition into the management component, which is when you start getting beyond a handful of people. I think some of the magic numbers were kind of crossing 10 people, crossing more than 15 engineers.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Things start to break, particularly related to communication patterns. And it starts to become a different kind of anxiety where internally what you want and what people think you're thinking are not immediately apparent because you're not all sitting around the same table anymore and can just go off and have a tangent on whatever topic you feel like. And once you start getting to not even a huge scale, but just crossing, I think 15 engineers is kind of a magic number for me at least. It becomes really hard to get your intent across. And there is this rule of thumb that you need to keep hammering home your key messages and your key goals so often that it's annoying to people because otherwise you're not communicating enough. And I think there's some truth in that.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  And so having the whole team on board in a way where the the vision is kind of understood, I think, is the first sort of management challenge. And then many more fallout. So I'm sure your listeners will know the the list of you have to learn about HR law in California, federal law, have to learn about accounting systems. We do government contracting, so we have a whole other timekeeping system. We had to learn the federal acquisition regulation. It's a 3,000 page document about how you do contracting with the government. So the list of just how to run the company is massive. And the basic way in which I think most people learn it is trial and error. And of course, that's part of how I went through this process.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  But I was also lucky enough to have very, very strong mentors who are both other founders, friends who are in senior executive roles at other companies and investors who came in.

• 10:44Harry Stebbings?

  What do you think was the most prominent advice from a mentor or a friend along the process? So like for me, mine was once my website crashed and a friend of mine, when I was crying on the floor, he told me that nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems. And do you have any that stick out to you like that, which you always hold quite true to you?

• 11:02Speaker 02

  So some of the advice I've gotten that I've been following. Even though it makes me a little uncomfortable, which is why I mention it is I hear often there are some non-negotiable things that are just co-founder decisions. And you shouldn't discuss them as a group. It filters through the company by following your vision, your intent for the business. And that's not something that should be up for group discussion and you just kind of have to impose it on others. And that's something that makes me a little uncomfortable because in our corporate culture here at Qadium, we tend to be extremely deliberative and data-driven. And I don't think by virtue of being the co-founder, I am most likely to be correct about a wide range of topics.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  And I really enjoy the process of drawing on expertise and data to come to better decisions. And so part of what was most useful in at least thinking about the degrees of things that you need to have as global decisions for the company are what are the ones that are not up for debate? That no matter who is coming through the company and how things are changing, you're not going to alter the course because that's the identity of the company. So while the culture changes over time based on people who you bring in and you can kind of nudge it in different directions, depending on what you choose to reward and punish, the kind of ethereal notion of what is it that we're doing and why are we here?

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Is something that I was surprised to hear a lot of different people articulating needed to come just from the top. So I guess that was one bit of advice that has resonated with me because I didn't like it when I first heard it. But over time have come to understand the value of that perspective and why as things sort of change, it's important to have those common roots.

• 12:44Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And can I'm talking about though what makes great co-founders? We spoke there about management side and then kind of segmenting it from leadership. One undeniable element in today's world is the fundraising element. And you've raised nearly thirty million dollars so far in one of the toughest fundraising environments in history. So I'd love to hear your experiences on that, what you think you did well, what you'd improve upon for the next round and the advice that you'd impart as a result.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  What are the best pieces of non-intuitive advice I got during fundraising, which I think I used to our advantage? It was from a friend of mine, Adam Getty, who's the co-founder, CEO of Ioniq Security, based in Atlanta. Great company, by the way. When I did my practice Series A pitch with Adam, he sat back and said, "Your entire problem solution statement is about network security." And I said, "Yeah, absolutely. That's the first product that we're selling. It's all about enterprise network security." And he said, "Yeah, but the core technology for Qadium, the core platform, is sensing everything connected to the public internet, right?" And I said, "Yeah, absolutely." And he said, "What you need to do is communicate that vision. What is the company doing on a multi-decade time horizon?" Because when

• 13:53Speaker 02

  you go and do VC pitches, you're going to have one partner who completely understands what you're doing through all of the nuance of the product that you are launching and why, and who the initial customers are, et cetera. But when you do the partnership pitch, you need to achieve a consensus very quickly in that room of people. And they're not going to get into the nuance of why you're tackling security first. They're not going to get into the nuance of your perspective that we need to start ignoring firewalls as a way to think about perimeter security. All they're going to fixate on is what they associate with the brand. And you want them walking out of that room thinking Qadium is the Google for the Internet of Things. And so you need to completely change this

• 14:33Speaker 02

  and start with a presentation where the vision for the company is the truthful vision, which is actually a lot more ambitious. It is, we're going to continually index everything on the internet and provide analytics associated with that, and then get into the product. Because when the partners walk out of the room, you need them to think, "Oh, my God, this is going to be one of the most successful companies of the decade and not just another incremental cybersecurity play." And so don't over-optimize for, "This is how we're going to launch a product and make revenue." Optimize for, "How is this going to be one of the most impactful brands of our generation?" And I think he was absolutely correct. I changed the tenor of the pitch, and that is the structure that I ended up using. And I really hate the formula of, "It's the Google of, it's the Uber of, et cetera." So I tried

• 15:18Speaker 02

  to avoid using that exact formulation, but basically oriented around, what is the bigger vision for the technology and for the business? And what does this technology make possible?

• 15:29Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think there were any elements where you look back now and really not regret, but think, I could have done that so much better?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  So during this Series A, we had a bit of an uncomfortable conversation with some of our existing investors because we were charting our course when asking for more money. And so one thing that I think we could have done better is communication with the existing investors and having them bought into the vision a little bit sooner, where we have this parallel track for Qadium between government and enterprise. And some of our existing investors felt strongly that we should focus almost exclusively on the government business because it has been going so well and that enterprise would distract us and it would be difficult to have both products simultaneously. It ended up being a much more contentious issue than I thought for us to explain that

• 16:18Speaker 02

  part of what we wanted to do with the Series A fundraise was launching and scaling our enterprise software product. So I'll say I wish I had handled a little bit more strategically some of those investor relationships where I think they were surprised to hear, wow, you're generating extremely impressive revenue and a customer base in the federal sector and you need 100% of your focus there because any moment you're not spending on that, you're probably losing opportunities. We don't care about investment banks. We want you to get the intelligence community first. There is an obvious coherent point of view there, but it was not one that we ultimately decided to follow for lots of different reasons. And I think I screwed that up a little bit in fundraising where I think we could have

• 17:00Speaker 02

  done a much better job of speaking with them in advance and making sure they were giving their perspective and we had enough time to reconcile and have them bought in. So everybody exercised available pro rata for the round, but at the same time, we had some conversations that I would have rather had sooner because the fundraising process is very, very stressful in itself and it was not great to be arguing with people who are some of our biggest backers, literally in the middle of the fundraising process.

• 17:27Harry Stebbings?

  Now, we mentioned your audience investors there and controversial ones, which is a little left of field, so excuse me for this one. And it's one of them is Peter Thiel. And I've spoken to a couple of Peter Thiel's investments. In terms of portfolio founders, and some of them have cited a potential dissatisfaction that the fact they took the money knowing now his political views. I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts on this in light of all the press that came out around, obviously, Trump and then the Gawker, and how that affected your view of taking Thiel investment.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  So Peter is one of the most brilliant and interesting minds I have ever met, and certainly the most so since moving to Silicon Valley. And I personally have no regrets about having taken his investment, and I would do so again in a heartbeat. And I would work with him in the future on other companies if that were ever in the cards. So I don't share the perspective, and I'll explain why. And I've realised that his political controversy has really resonated strongly in the Valley. And I'll say, I think Sam Altman's blog post on this subject got it exactly right about why Peter shouldn't step down from YC. So what Sam wrote is essentially, we can't have a sliding scale where because somebody

• 18:43Speaker 02

  is a little bit too controversial as a candidate, they should not be backed even though they have the nomination of a major party. And Peter hasn't made racist or misogynist remarks, or remarks that could be interpreted as such, and instead the candidate who he is supporting has. And those are very different things. And so the fact that nearly half the country voted for Trump suggests to me it is a very dangerous slippery slope to go down to start saying this particular Republican candidate, a major party nominee, and now the president-elect, is unacceptable and therefore we should not do business with anybody who's supported him. I think that frankly is an immature point of view, and one that misses a huge potential opportunity to continue what has already begun in improved relationships between Silicon

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Valley and Washington DC, where we've already seen multiple initiatives, where we have gotten the Defence Department under Secretary Ash Carter interested in bringing in new tech companies from the Valley to help the Pentagon with innovation, as well as the private sector helping with Obamacare and the Office of Science and Technology Policy, having the digital service. in the White House, a lot of these initiatives are suggesting that on the East Coast, they recognize we have something out here that is special in Silicon Valley and what we have been able to create. And there is a strong interest in kind of doing an update on the federal government across the board. And companies like mine, which focuses presently on cybersecurity, have a lot to offer in that dimension.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  So I think issuing the next four years of Washington, because Trump is a controversial figure, would be a bad choice for tech companies and for founders in particular. I would add to that, since I started with kind of a compliment regarding Peter, he is also just on paper, one of the best tech investors in history, period. And so regardless of what he is doing with his politics, the value that he has added for his companies, both as an operator and an investor, I think is unquestionable. And if you talk to other founders from Peter companies, I think you will largely hear the same narrative.

• 20:46Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And on that incredibly fascinating note, I think I would put, I'd love to dive into a quick fire with you. So I say a short statement and then you give me your immediate thoughts. How does that sound?

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Oh dear.

• 20:58Harry Stebbings?

  Oh dear, indeed. I'm very strict. Sixty seconds per one. This is easy first one. Your favorite book and why?

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Snow Crash by Neil Stephenson. I think the universe he constructed is absolutely amazing. True visionary in what virtual reality could be like, as well as the political dynamics of kind of the highly fragmented United States. Just absolutely incredible. Love the interwoven narratives between technology and politics. Absolutely amazing.

• 21:25Harry Stebbings?

  What challenges you most to this day?

• 21:27Speaker 02

  So almost certainly the kind of edge cases of how I improve as a manager is what worries me the most. I feel like the product and the technology are spectacular at Qadium. And what I'm most worried about is how things break at different scale. So we'll be crossing fifty shortly and then hopefully a hundred by the end of next year or soon thereafter. And what worries me the most is our ability to execute at that kind of scale. And that's a very, very typical problem, but it's one that never goes Away and for which there is no formulaic solution and is always determined on a case by case basis. And so we've tried to assemble the absolute best possible team, including the people management side to deal with that.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  It still makes me nervous more than anything else going on right now.

• 22:14Harry Stebbings?

  You've mentioned some brilliant elements of Silicon Valley. What are some of the worst elements of Silicon Valley, having seen both the East and the West Coast and having that perspective?

• 22:23Speaker 02

  I am absolutely amazed at some of the shit that is funded out here. To be to be frank, it just blows my mind. I think the TV show Silicon Valley captures a lot of this in a way that is so painful that many of my close friends can't even watch it. I really think that there is enormous human talent being wasted here on highly unproductive activities. So when there was all of this doom kind of at the beginning of 2015 regarding the VC market and startups failing, not being able to raise new rounds. I was very excited. I thought that that was absolutely great news. And the reason for that is I thought it would free up unproductive labor from people doing stupid apps that are not going to create value for anyone.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Except in the best case, an aqua hire for the founders by a bigger company. And instead, hopefully would channel the best of their labor into more productive businesses as well as free up capital to invest in more productive companies. So I was excited for the recruitment that we might be able to do if more companies were failing. And hey, it also drives down the cost of office space.

• 23:28Harry Stebbings?

  And then your favorite blog or newsletter, what are the must reads for you when they come in?

• 23:32Speaker 02

  I will admit it is completely unrelated to my job, but I love the Points Guy. So just in pure pleasure reading, love reading the Points Guy. In terms of cybersecurity and my area of expertise, Bruce Schneier has a fantastic blog called Schneier on Security. That is probably the best in class for the right balance between thoughtful, technical and focusing on the social implications of technology. And in terms of large scale data analytics, I'm a big fan of flowing data.

• 24:02Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And then in terms of CEOs, if you could be CEO for the day for any company, which CEO would you be?

• 24:10Speaker 02

  I think I would try to be the CEO of something that seems absolutely abysmal from the outside, like Amtrak or United Airlines, because I don't understand externally why it is so hard to make their products better. And I think it would be fascinating to try and understand from the inside.

• 24:27Harry Stebbings?

  And then pretend I'm a VC and you're pitching me on the vision. Final question here, what's the grand vision for you and KDM?

• 24:35Speaker 02

  So we are intending to be the brand for Internet of Things Analytics. And so what we mean by that is we're sensing everything connected to the public internet on a regular basis. And our first product that we have launched is related to security and helping companies monitor the entirety of the public internet for their assets. But our data lets you do many, many more things, including market research, business intelligence, really understanding the contours of the internet in a way that nobody has before. One of our advisors, Dan Bonet from Stanford, he's a professor of computer science there, remarked that he has never seen anything like our data. And they have entire academic conferences attempting to approximate what we have, you know, running in our commodity cloud services from what KDM has gathered.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  So really, I see the future as being the possibilities opened by what else can we do in terms of large scale internet analytics from our perspective, doing active sensing across the entirety of the public internet and treating the internet as independent data set.

• 25:35Harry Stebbings?

  Tim, it's been such a pleasure. Chad told me it'd be an incredible show and I'm so grateful it's entirely lived up to our expectations.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity again and thank you so much.

• 25:48Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I want to say a huge thank you to Tim for giving up his time today to come on the show. Really was so special to hear his journey with KDM. And again, a huge hand to the team at Sousa for the intro to Tim today. Also, if you loved the show today and would like to see more from me, then you can add me on Snapchat at H Stebbings or you can check out our blog on mojito VC dot com. I'd absolutely love to hear your thoughts and feedback on that. But before we leave you, stay, do not forget to check out Intercom. Intercom is the first to bring messaging products for marketing and customer support together on one integrated platform. With Intercom, businesses can chat. Directly with prospective customers on their website, engage with current users with targeted messages based on their behaviour and provide personal support at scale with an integrated helpdesk and knowledge base. All products are powered by live customer data, helping businesses avoid the stiff spammy

• 26:33Harry Stebbings?

  status quo and have real conversations to build real connections throughout the entire customer lifecycle. This is perfect for businesses that want to help people visiting their website become customers and for marketing and growth teams that want to onboard and retain users by sending the right messages at the right times. So simply head over to intercom.com/20mvc, that's 20mvc. And speaking of serving your clients better there with Intercom, no one can beat Cooley for serving their clients for the longest. Cooley is a global law firm built around startups and venture capital firms. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley's formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 50-plus years working with VCs. They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments and handle the myriad of issues

• 27:18Harry Stebbings?

  that arise through a fund's lifetime. So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to Cooley.com and also check them out at CooleyGo.com. As always, we so appreciate all your support and I look very forward to bringing you next week's episodes.