20VC: NEW FORMAT: Harry Stebbings on Why Seed Pricing is as High as Ever, Why Series A is the Best Place to Invest Today, Why Growth Founders Need to Reshape Expectations, Why M&A Windows Remain Shut and When Will IPO Windows Crack Open

Harry Stebbings is the Founder of 20VC, building the next great financial institution at the intersection of media and venture capital. 20VC has reached over 125M downloads in 100+ countries and has featured the likes of Doug Leone, Bill Gurley, Marc Benioff, Daniel Ek and more. On the investing side, Harry has raised over $400M and made investments in the likes of Pachama, Linear, TripleDot, Superhuman, AgentSync, Linktree, Sorare and more. In Today's Episode We Cover: Are LPs Open for Business: How has what LPs look for in new manager investments changed? What type of funds will be able to raise? Which will not be able to raise? What can managers do to significantly increase their chances of raising a new fund? 2. The Seed Investing Landscape: Harder Than Ever Why is seed pricing as high as ever? Why are multi-stage funds more active in seed than ever? How does this impact seed? How will seed change and evolve over the next 6-12 months? 3. Series A + B: The Best Place to be Investing Why is Series A the best risk/reward insertion point when investing today? How has the competition level at Series A and B changed? What do many people not see or know about this stage of the market today? 4. Is Growth Dead: Are Growth Deals Getting Done: What two core elements are needed if you want to raise a growth round today? How have growth round valuations been impacted over the last 12 months? To what extent do founders need to change their expectations on the price of rounds they will be able to get done today? 5. M&A and IPOs: Tough Times Ahead Why will we see continued low levels of activity in M&A markets? What acquisitions are we seeing take place? When will the IPO window crack open? Why were Klaviyo, Instacart and Arm not enough to open the windows?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Hello and welcome back to 20 VC with me, Harry Stebbings. Now today, we're doing a first of its kind show. At 20 VC, we have the most comprehensive data on a generation of venture investors. We have over a thousand track records, over 10,000 references with individual MPS from founders on their investors, where they added value, where they didn't add value, how important and impactful were they as a board member. And today, we analyse the different components of the venture market and use our proprietary 20 VC data to highlight some core observations and lessons. We cover everything from fundraising for funds to the growth and IPO markets. It's a very special and different show, and I really want to hear your thoughts. Let me know on Twitter at Harry Stebbings, and I'd love all feedback. But before we dive into the show today, listen to this.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Mercury has been a breath of fresh air.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  Getting started was maybe one of the most delightful onboarding experiences I've had. Mercury is just so easy to use.

• 0:54Harry Stebbings?

  The aesthetic of it is actually quite relaxing.

• 0:58Speaker 03

  For me, it was less a choice and more finding a kindred spirit.

• 1:02Harry Stebbings?

  Imagine feeling this way about business banking. You could if you join more than 100,000 startups on Mercury, the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank. Start building momentum and leave the friction behind by visiting mercury.com/20vc. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank and Trust, members of the FDIC. And speaking of amazing products like Mercury there, Coda is a dock on steroids. More than 2 million people have made Coda their home to supercharge their work, create a feeling of organisation and foster collaborative workflows. And they just

• 1:43Harry Stebbings?

  introduced Coda 4.0, a set of updates that make them the true all-in-one platform for businesses, including Coda AI, the connected work assistant that knows your company and actually performs tasks instead of just answering questions. And it's free for doc makers, delivering on the promise to be the one single source of truth. By bringing your teams and tools together, Coda is the only link you need. The ultimate Coda handbook for every team, step by step. Guides and templates for overcoming common challenges unique to teams and how to solve them in Coda. If you want a platform that empowers your team to work, organise and collaborate together, get started with Coda today for free. Head over to coda.io/20vc, that's coda.io,

• 2:27Harry Stebbings?

  and get started for free at coda.io/20vc. And speaking of incredible products, travel and expense are never associated with cost savings, but now you can reduce costs up to 30% and actually reward your employees. How? Well, Navan rewards your employees with personal travel credit every time they save their company money when booking business travel under company policy. Does that sound too good to be true? Well, Navan is so confident you'll move to their game-changing all-in-one travel corporate card and expense super app that they'll give you $250 in personal travel credit just for taking a quick demo. Check them out now at navan.com/20vc. You have now arrived at your destination.

• 3:11Harry Stebbings?

  So this show is going to be unlike any other 20VC that we've done before. I recently sent out an investor update to LPs of 20VC funds and in the update I included a market commentary which essentially broke down the different aspects and components of our markets from the LP fund investing side to the seed market, to the series A and B market, to the growth markets, IPOs and beyond. We even touched on some elements of AI and SaaS markets today. Now, what many people do not know is that 20VC has one of the largest data repositories on this generation of managers, over 1,000 track records, over 10,000 references on VCs. And so a lot of the information and data that you hear today is predicated on our proprietary 20VC data

• 3:54Harry Stebbings?

  and then insider conversations with some of the world's leading investors. That is what is behind a large amount of the information that you're about to hear. And I'm really interested to hear your thoughts. So let me know what you think. And we're going to kick off today at the source of capital with LP fund investing. First and most importantly, despite what you read on Twitter, LPs do remain open for business. The best investors in funds realise and know that you have to invest through cycles and you cannot miss being in a great fund. So what is going to separate those that are able to raise and those that aren't? I think it's really three core pillars. The first is trusted relationships. LPs invest in lines, not dots. If you are meeting an LP for the first time during your fundraise, it is very, very difficult to convert them that fund cycle.

• 4:38Harry Stebbings?

  And so you have to really build the relationship over time. Lines, not dots. Fun fact, on that note, I meet two new LPs every single week, regardless of whether I'm fundraising or not. You then want to build an LP acquisition flywheel. Flywheels drive any successful business. You need to build as a fund manager, an LP acquisition flywheel. So I meet two new investors every week, two new LPs every week. And at the end, I say, it was so great to speak. I really enjoyed this. If you were to recommend two others that you think would be great for me to speak to and build a relationship, who would they be? They will recommend two more and each week you get four net new LP referrals for you to speak to, to start building those relationships and initiating that lines, not dots.

• 5:22Harry Stebbings?

  The second I mentioned that I think is really important, DPI. You have to have had cash back. You have to be able to show that you can make money for your investors. And then the third is differentiation, a truly differentiated model, be it on the servicing side, be it on the sourcing side. You have to have two of the three to be successful in this fundraising market. To recap, trusted relationships, DPI, which is cash back, or differentiation in terms of your model for one of the three pillars of venture. The three pillars of venture, sourcing, selecting and servicing. If you can prove tangibly that you have a differentiator that allows you to do those three better, then you are significantly higher likelihood of being able to raise in this market.

• 6:04Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but I want this to be as kind of freestyle as possible. We mentioned that kind of being successful in terms of fundraising in this market. I think the type of manager that succeeds in this market is actually different to the type of manager that succeeded in the prior cycle. In the prior cycle, what succeeded was aspirational capital where the founders picked. The source of capital. Now that is still very much the case, but there is an increasing element of picking, the ability to truly pick the quality companies from the not so high quality companies. So we'll see a shift in emphasis away from the aspirational capital towards the really great pickers. And then I think we'll see a shift in investing from the momentum investors that weren't so strong on portfolio management to the incredibly

• 6:46Harry Stebbings?

  diligent portfolio managers who are incredibly aware that actually we were lied to for many years when we were told lean in, lean in, the best actually strategically lent out of their best positions. And so I think we'll see a movement away from the momentum, portfolio management, liquidity management doesn't matter, to actually the best returning managers being incredibly disciplined around core tenants of portfolio management, especially liquidity management. Another important trend that we see in the fund investing market for LPs today is what I'm calling the end of the barbell. LPs are moving away from the sub hundred million dollar funds with little track record and little data. In a lot of cases, given the size of their check, it's not worth their time for the risk profile

• 7:27Harry Stebbings?

  attached. At the same time, LPs are moving away from the billion dollar plus funds in the knowledge that a three X of one billion dollar fund is not a likely return profile. Given the downsizing of outcomes that we're seeing in public markets over the last six to 12 months, that realization of just how hard it is to do three X plus on a billion dollar fund really hits home, I think, to the LP market. As a result, LPs are clustering towards the 250 to 600 million dollar fund size range where funds have DPI, the team has history, and there's a reliable mechanism to produce outsized returns, but where they're also able to write a 20 to 25 million dollar check and be able to reinvest with them for several fund cycles. That's really where we're seeing the clustering and concentration

• 8:11Harry Stebbings?

  of capital in the middle, actually, of that barbell that we have seen over the prior years. Now, we don't talk about it much, but through doing 20 VC, we have an incredible amount of proprietary 20 VC data on this generation of managers. This includes track records, DPIs, TVPIs. And for those that may be listening who don't know what TVPI and DPI is, TVPI very simply is the Book value of your portfolio, what is your portfolio worth on paper in the current market? It's measured in number of different ways, but what is the book value on paper of your portfolio? And then the DPI is historically, what is your cash back to investors? How much money have you made for your investors cash back? That's TVPI and that's DPI for anyone wondering what those meant.

• 8:56Harry Stebbings?

  As well as this incredible track record data that we have, we also have several thousand references from founders who work with VCs who sit on their boards. They provide us an NPS of what it's like to work with that VC. An NPS is a net promoter score, which essentially rates that venture investor out of 10 for the value add and impact that they've had on their business. And so there's a couple of core observations when I look at this data. The first, NPS and DPI, there is an inverse correlation between the NPS of the manager and the DPI provided. Most often, the higher the NPS, the lower the DPI and vice versa. There are core misalignments between founders and GPs that often aren't spoken about, but most notably around liquidity, timing and availability.

• 9:41Harry Stebbings?

  They often impact the manager's NPS or the investor's NPS, but actually very positively impact their DPI. The second really interesting element that I'm seeing looking at the data is the temporal diversification is real. For those that deployed funds in 12 months in 2021, their average entry price is 41% higher than those that deployed over a three-year period. I've always believed in the power of temporal diversification myself. 20VC always invest across three-year time horizons. I always laugh and say, I don't know how to invest fast and well. Three years, you need to have temporal diversification to have that risk profile equalized in your portfolios. The third one I would say is, as I mentioned earlier, lean in is a bit BS.

• 10:22Harry Stebbings?

  A generation of managers have believed that you double down on your winners, double down on your winners and you don't ever sell. We've been told this for the last decade, ride your winners. The data shows the opposite. The best strategically lean out of their winners in increments over time. Preferatory 20VC data shows managers with the same positions, but 3X different returns due to timing and Size of exiting a position, managers must know their liquidity strategy, that's going to be increasingly important. The fourth one, the chasm between TVPI and DPI will be the biggest in venture history. Venture books remain incredibly highly marked or highly priced. With portfolio companies having a lot of runway, there's no incentive for managers to actively mark down positions.

• 11:04Harry Stebbings?

  We've seen this extensively across over a thousand track records that we have access to. The fifth, I would say, we mentioned there about how portfolios are very highly priced still today or highly marked by their managers. A really interesting element, the best managers mark down their portfolios fastest. There is a direct correlation between the best performing DPI managers and the speed and accuracy with which they mark down their positions. Now, the sixth, I would say, there's just a huge chasm in book values. As I said, we have over a thousand track records. We see immense chasms between the book values of how different managers hold positions. In some cases, we see managers marking a decacorn as zero and others keeping it at a decacorn price.

• 11:46Harry Stebbings?

  This presents actually a really interesting challenge for LPs because they don't know the underlying true value of their portfolios. Now, for some that are compensated on TVPI, they actually want that book value to remain high because they are compensated on it. For others, it's a real challenge because they just don't know the underlying value of their assets that they're invested in. Now, the final one I would say is that the fund deployment slows down due to GP overextension. What do I mean by that? In order to raise the larger funds, a lot of GPs increase GP commits significantly. At the same time, they invested in several other emerging managers and borrowed significantly against very highly priced portfolios with the carry predicated on those high prices. The combination of which means a tightening of personal finances for some and many GPs

• 12:31Harry Stebbings?

  and a slowdown in capital calls due to them being on the hook, so to speak, for millions every time that a call is made. Now, before we move into the seed landscape, I think really if you're an LP investing fund state, you should be looking for three things in the managers that you're looking to back. They should be aspirational capital and what I mean by that is they are capital that founders consistently seek out and choose to. Partner with over other funds. It is not simply enough being able to pick. You do also have to be sought out as aspirational capital. Second, you have to have a proven model and mechanism to do the three core pillars of venture better than other people. Sourcing, selecting and servicing. Do they have a truly differentiated model to do those three things?

• 13:15Harry Stebbings?

  I think a great example of that would be Y Combinator, which clearly and most tangibly has that mechanism to do those three things better than many others in the early stage ecosystem. And then I think the third core element, which is really important to consider is, is the manager that I'm looking at or assessing, are their long-term goals aligned to our long-term goals as a financing partner? What I mean by that is if a fund today is three, three hundred million and the manager wants to scale to two billion over the next three to five years, they might not be aligned to your long-term financing interests. With that in mind, one and done funds is not a position that anyone wants to be in. And so just making sure that you're aligned in terms of the manager's expectations and desires in terms of expansion

• 13:57Harry Stebbings?

  and your desires in terms of continuing partnering positions with them. All right, now we're getting into the really fun stuff. We're going into the direct company investing market and we're going to start with seed investing. I'm going to be incredibly unpopular for this, but we're going with the rambling episode for today. So seed is the hardest place to be investing today. Prices remain unchanged and high. Increased competition as more multi-stage funds move towards seed. Aware that they have to be in market, but they don't want to deploy large checks at series A and B. There's also what I'm calling the rise of principal power. This is multi-stage money deployed by principals within firms because partners are underwater with board positions in struggling companies

• 14:40Harry Stebbings?

  and they're giving more junior members of the team a checkbook. This increases the capital supply to the seed market, but also means less price sensitive supply. And so seed pricing is as high as ever, and I think will continue to be as high as ever in the core markets. I know I've seen some data and reports that suggest this isn't the case. For the best deals in the best markets, pricing continues to remain incredibly high at seed and I believe we will see it. Stay that way over the next six to 12 months. So yes, that means the 5 million pre-seed on a 25 million valuation still very much is the case in AI even more so. And I think it's really important to just point out, this is not a game that a sub 75 million dollar seed fund manager can play.

• 15:23Harry Stebbings?

  You simply cannot get the ownership required or the check size often in those hot rounds to make the business model work for that entry price and that check size if you're a sub 75 million dollar fund. Sadly now, that is a game for the multi-stage funds who are simply spreading optionality, allowing themselves to have visibility on a seed market before doubling down on anything that shows any meaningful signs of traction, where they then want to put in a 20 million dollar Series A and lead that next round. Sadly, that's a reality of venture today where, as I said, 5 million on 25 still exists, but it's a game for multi-stage funds who are playing an optionality game. For founders listening to this, wondering if the check size that the fund is looking to invest

• 16:05Harry Stebbings?

  in their company is meaningful to the fund, a very simple heuristic or question to ask is, what percent of your fund is this check going into my company? If it's under one or two percent, it really does not matter. If it's over one or two percent, three to four percent, then it's going to be a core position and you really matter. Once two percent, it does matter, but as I said, under one percent, honestly, it really does not matter in terms of their fund position and their capital availability. And so that's a really simple question that you can ask to just understand how much of a priority in terms of capital allocation you'll be to them. Okay, so I want to move to the Series A now. I think Series A is actually the best risk to reward insertion point in venture today. Prices are significantly down at the Series A.

• 16:48Harry Stebbings?

  The price inflection between seed and Series A has actually never been smaller, yet the de-risking that has occurred in that chasm has never been greater. An example of this, company X raises 4 million seed on a 20 million dollar post, scales to 3 million ARR over the next 12 months. That Series A today is priced at 40 to 60 million dollars, two to three X price increase for a significant de-risking of. Product market fit. That's a much more attractive insertion point in my mind than paying the four on 20 with very little data. The second element of Series A that I think is important is just competition is heavily reduced. As mentioned, many of the multi-stage funds are reluctant to deploy the 20 to 40 million dollar Series A and B checks

• 17:32Harry Stebbings?

  and are instead moving to seed to remain in market, still writing checks but putting fewer dollars out the door. It leaves a lot of good and great companies with fewer funding options at the Series A and B. We are rocking and rolling here, so we're going to move now to growth. The growth is hard, but it's not impossible. You have to be one of two things in growth today. Founders have to have a solid AI story. How can you leverage existing data to provide the best AI-driven solutions? How does that impact upsell and net revenue retention? How does that impact margin? If you have a really great AI story, you can still pull off a great growth round at a good price or even a great price. And then I think the second element of growth, founders have to reduce expectations on price.

• 18:13Harry Stebbings?

  When at 15 million ARR and above, 10 to 15x revenue deals are still on offer for fast-growing SaaS companies. People are queuing out of the door to do them, but founders still have 2020 to 2022 timeframe expectations in terms of that pricing. Founders are going to need to reduce expectations on price if they don't have a great AI story, but they're at 15 million in ARR with good margins, strong revenue quality. The deals can still get done, but you're definitely going to see compression in terms of the pricing that those growth investors are willing to pay. And that's purely a function of them actually looking at the public markets and seeing the trickle down and going, well, if X company is actually only worth $5 billion in the public markets, coming in at an $800 million Series B price

• 18:57Harry Stebbings?

  with $8 million in revenue doesn't give me the upside for the risk profile that I'm taking on. And that's why we're seeing the compression in pricing really at the growth, which is really becoming a bit of a crunch. So now we're going to move from growth to M and A markets. M and A markets have dried up almost completely, and I think they will continue to remain closed. For small-scale M and A, anything sub a billion dollars, it's too much time for corp dev teams, the people responsible for buying companies. And acquiring companies to engage with. Plus, they're not looking to add headcount. No one is looking to add thirty to fifty to seventy five person companies and headcount to their balance sheet.

• 19:35Harry Stebbings?

  The only small scale acqui hires that we are seeing take place currently is acquisitions where there is incredibly desirable AI talent within the startups. And incumbents are purely acquiring those companies for that AI talent and integrating them into their existing teams. On the flip side, if an acquisition is a billion dollars plus, the increased regulatory environment means that acquirers are not engaging, aware of the likelihood that it simply won't be approved. Next, if we move on from M and A markets, we have the IPO markets. The big question is, what will be the catalyst to the cracking open of IPO markets en masse? Clavio, Arm and Instacart were not enough to crack open the IPO markets.

• 20:15Harry Stebbings?

  They didn't give great confidence that the IPO markets will come back in a strong and confident way. The buy book on their offerings was very distributed, shows the lack of institutional demand for tech IPOs today. Will Stripe, Databricks, SpaceX potentially go out next year? Will that be the breakthrough? I don't think so. I don't expect Stripe or SpaceX to go out next year. And Databricks alone won't be enough to crack open the IPO windows. That said, when IPO windows do open, as Jason Lemkin from SaaS has said on the show before, there is a pipeline of twenty to thirty SaaS companies with two hundred million in ARR, strong net revenue retention and high margins that are ready to go out.

• 20:56Harry Stebbings?

  Jason thinks that window is going to crack open H2 to the second half of twenty twenty four. I'm honestly a bit more pessimistic. I think this will be a twenty twenty five Q one event. But the question is, what will be enough to crack them open? As I said, I think twenty twenty five Q one is when we really will start to see the IPO windows open again. So with IPO windows remaining shut, the question is, where do LPs, employees and funds get liquidity? We have a massive liquidity problem today. Well, it's go time for secondary markets. Today is likely one of the best ever opportunities for activity in the secondary markets. And we're going to break it down according to the three.

• 21:33Harry Stebbings?

  From participants in these markets, starting with funds, number one, many emerging managers are sitting on significant positions which are four to seven years from liquidity, but have tremendous upside. The realisation that in order to raise their next fund, they need DPI, again, that's cash back, which means now for the first time, they are open to liquidity options on some of their best positions. Now, the second is LPs, the people that invest in funds. Many LPs with strong fund positions need liquidity for mandated outflows that their institution must make annually. This is often the case for endowment funds, who have to commit to scholarships or upkeep of communities or facilities.

• 22:14Harry Stebbings?

  As a result, they're forced to look to sell their fund positions. We've seen discounts from our data, either in full or as a strip sale, at as much as seventy to eighty percent off. The final element is employees. Employees are increasingly aware that IPO markets will remain close for the foreseeable future, and any potential M and A is unlikely. Many within the best companies are looking to gain liquidity and sell part of their positions to make that happen. Looking at these three, the fundamental question then remains, what is the spread between the demand side bid and the supply side price? For the last twelve to eighteen months, this chasm between the bid and the ask has been too significant a chasm.

• 22:54Harry Stebbings?

  With increasing awareness on the supply side that liquidity is not coming, the chasm between price and bid is reducing. I expect some of the best secondary positions to be bought in the next twelve months. Now, finally, how can we do a breakdown of the market without discussing the AI landscape today? So these following observations are taken from insider discussions with some of the leading minds in the AI landscape today. Number one, the impact of AI on society will produce one of the biggest opportunities of modern times. However, ninety-nine percent of the money invested into AI startups today will go to zero. These statements are not mutually exclusive.

• 23:31Harry Stebbings?

  Number two, the end of horizontal startup products. In AI, access to proprietary data will be the single most important differentiator. We will see a generation of verticalisation in order to accrue. Data the fastest occur. Number three, where does the value accrue? In the short term, incumbents will accrue the most value, leveraging existing distribution to provide co-pilot products. Over the longer term, startups providing tools for new product paradigms will be best placed to win over the next five to 10 years. Fourth learning, co-pilot is a last ditch attempt from incumbents. It relies on human input and as Sarah Tavell stated well in her writing, the winners in AI will sell the work and not the services,

• 24:14Harry Stebbings?

  resulting in a reduction of human involvement and increased automation. Fifth and finally, the changing business model. We will move away from a traditional per-seat SaaS model to a consumption-based model aligned much more closely to value and output. Now, I hope you've enjoyed this show. I would really love to hear your thoughts. You can let me know on Twitter at Harry Stebbings. It would be great to hear your feedback. So let me know what you think on Twitter and I really hope that you've enjoyed this breakdown today.

• 24:43Harry Stebbings?

  Again, let me know what you think. We will be back to standard programming next week, but I really wanted to try out a new style, a new format, give you something slightly different. So let me know what you think. As I said, on Twitter at Harry Stebbings. But before we leave you today, listen to this.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Mercury has been a breath of fresh air.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Getting started was maybe one of the most delightful onboarding experiences I've had.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Mercury is just so easy to use.

• 25:06Harry Stebbings?

  The aesthetic of it is actually quite relaxing.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  For me, it was less a choice and more finding a conjured spirit.

• 25:14Harry Stebbings?

  Imagine feeling this way about business banking. You could if you join more than 100,000 startups on Mercury, the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank. Start building momentum and leave the friction behind by visiting mercury.com/20vc. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank and Trust, members of the FDIC. And speaking of amazing products like Mercury there, Coda is a dock on steroids. More than 2 million people have made Coda their home to supercharge their work, create a feeling of organization and foster collaborative.

• 25:53Harry Stebbings?

  Workflows and they just introduced Coda 4.0, a set of updates that make them the true all-in-one platform for businesses, including Coda AI, the connected work assistant that knows your company and actually performs tasks instead of just answering questions. And it's free for doc makers, delivering on the promise to be the one single source of truth. By bringing your teams and tools together, Coda is the only link you need. The ultimate Coda handbook for every team, step-by-step guides and templates for overcoming common challenges, unique to teams and how to solve them in Coda. If you want a platform that empowers your team to work, organise and collaborate together, get started with Coda today for free.

• 26:34Harry Stebbings?

  Head over to coda.io/20vc, that's coda.io and get started for free at coda.io/20vc. And speaking of incredible products, travel and expense are never associated with cost savings, but now you can reduce costs up to 30% and actually reward your employees. How? Well, Navan rewards your employees with personal travel credit every time they save their company money when booking business travel under company policy. Does that sound too good to be true? Well, Navan is so confident you'll move to their game-changing all-in-one travel corporate card and expense super app that they'll give you $250 in personal travel credit just for taking a quick demo.

• 27:16Harry Stebbings?

  Check them out now at navan.com/20vc. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode this coming Monday with Mathieu at Photo Room on scaling to 50 million in ARR in the most capital-efficient of ways.