20 VC 027: Greg Rogers on Techstars, Mentors and The Potential for Fintech

Greg Rogers is Managing Director at Techstars, the world’s leading accelerator programme for early stage technology start-ups and is responsible for the Barclays Accelerator. Prior to joining Techstars, he spent eleven years in New York City as an entrepreneur and senior manager. Most recently, he was founder and CEO of Pictela, a super rich media technology company that was acquired by AOL in 2010. An active angel, Greg was an early investor in Schedulicity and has recently co-founded SmartUp, a new ed-tech company with Frank Meehan (Siri), Brent Hoberman (Lastminute.com), and Barry Smith (Skyscanner). Items Mentioned in Today’s Show: The Fundraising Rules by Mark Peter-Davis Brent Hoberman, Frank Meehan, Jon Bradford LastMinute.com Aire DoPay Squirrel In today’s episode you will learn: 1.) How Greg got into the TechStars world? 2.) What attracted Greg to the the Fintech space and how has he seen Fintech develop over the last 5 years? 3.) What areas within the Fintech space Greg finds most interesting and why? 4.) What does Greg see the future of Fintech looking like? Does he see any trends arising in the space in 2015? 5.) What does Techstars offer startups and what do they take in return? 6.) What does Greg think are the characteristics of effective mentors? Are mentors necessary for startups in their early growth? 7.) What is Greg’s new venture, SmartUp. Who is involved and what are his plans for the future of SmartUp? We finish today’s episode with a quick fire round where we hear Greg’s plans for the next five years, what tip Greg would give Fintech entrepreneurs and the 3 companies from TechStars or Barclays Accelerator that Greg is most excited about and why?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Hello and welcome to episode 27 of the 20 Minute VC with your host Harry Stebbings. Now, I am hugely excited to welcome our guest today, Greg Rogers. Greg is currently Managing Director at Techstars, the world's leading accelerator programme for early-stage technology startups, and is responsible for the Barclays Accelerator. Prior to joining Techstars, he spent 11 years in New York City as an entrepreneur and senior manager. However, most recently, he was the founder and CEO of Picteller, a super-rich media technology company that was acquired by AOL in 2010. Since then, Greg has served as AOL's Senior Vice President of Premium Advertising until 2013.

• 0:43Harry Stebbings?

  In today's episode, we will delve into all things accelerator programmes, fintech, and talk about Greg's new venture, SmartUp. But first, it's time to announce our Book of the Week, and this week's book is The Fundraising Rules by Mark Peter Davis. Now, Mark was a guest on the show previously. If you haven't listened to it, check it out, it's episode 8. And since the interview, his book has generated huge amount of response from our audience and has provided incredibly actionable and useful tips for founders looking to enter the fundraising game. But without further ado, it's time to dive into our interview with Greg.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 1:29Harry Stebbings?

  Greg, welcome to the 20 Minute VC. I'm so excited to have you on the show.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Thanks, Harry. Thanks for having me. Always happy to help and contribute.

• 1:39Harry Stebbings?

  Now, can you tell us a little about yourself and how you got into the Techstars world?

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Sure. Well, I started off as an entrepreneur, so spent 11 years in New York City.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  And I really caught the entrepreneurial bug very early on.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  My first entree into it was in the world of advertising technology.

• 2:04Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  I was one of the early, uh, early employees in a company called Takeda, which did what's most called behavioral targeting. And that's just a really fancy word for, um, for when an ad follows you around the, the web. I'm sure you've seen this before. You know, it's a way of segmenting people and targeting people with advertising based upon their interests and behaviors. And that company, um, grew like gangbusters. It was, uh, it was just a phenomenal experience to be part of something that went logarithmic in its growth. And, uh.

• 2:43Harry Stebbings?

  And how long were you with them for?

• 2:46Speaker 02

  I was there, it was, it, it happened so fast. Um, I was there for two years during the time of the, of the rapid growth.

• 2:54Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  And, um, around two thousand and seven, the CEO decided that he wanted to sell the company. He got a very good offer, um, from A Wiltime Warner for around two hundred and seventy-five million.

• 3:07Harry Stebbings?

  Wow.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Now, the irony there is actually when he called me into his office and he, and he goes, um, Greg, we've, you know, we've decided to sell the company. He had a big smile on his face. That was the worst, that was one of the worst news of my career. And, and people oftentimes look at me and they shake their head and they're like, well, how could, how could an exit or liquidity event be bad news? And it wasn't, except for the fact that, um, Takeda was doing so well. It, it, we had hit this perfect alignment of product market fit, culture, an amazing technology group, an amazing sales group.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  And it, to see all these stars align in one organization, it's rare. You know, one doesn't.

• 3:56Harry Stebbings?

  You sold too early then.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Well, you know, um, I mean, that's how I felt at the time, right? And that was, that was why I was, I was upset at the meeting. Because, yeah, I, I was, I looked at him, I said, I can't believe it. I thought we were going to take this public. And he's like, and he say, you know, Greg, um, there's a very different, there's a big difference between, you know, a sale that's close to three hundred billion and taking something public.

• 4:23Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Um, and it it was actually quite prescient on his part because, of course, it was just before the the crash of two thousand and seven, when, you know, the real estate market plummeted.

• 4:37Harry Stebbings?

  Of course.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  And, um, I mean, if he hadn't decided to sell then, we would probably still be clanking away trying to take the company public. And so, but at the same time, you know, it's funny, I shouldn't, I shouldn't poo poo it very much because it also launched my my entrepreneurial career. So soon after that sale, um, I spent a little time at AOL, but then I decided that I wanted to create my own destiny. And I launched a company with, um, a a dear friend of mine, um, and the company is called Pictella. And Pictella was a next generation rich media ad server. And so this was the idea here was, well, you know, now that we know how to target people effectively using services like Dakota, um, can we now build a platform

• 5:23Speaker 02

  that can serve really incredible ads and ads that do a lot, that contain a tremendous amount of high definition video and information such that people don't need to click on them, right? Um, nobody clicks on ads. And so we started that, we grew that and coincidentally, um, also, uh, into an entirely different management team, also sold that to AOL.

• 5:47Harry Stebbings?

  And how did you do the all the backend to that? Did you do the development yourself?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did. We raised, we raised venture capital. Um, we hired an engineering team. Um, well, actually, let me take a, let me step back. Actually, at the very, very beginning, we, because we didn't have a big team, um, we used a a small development shop to help us get to market quicker.

• 6:08Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  But eventually what winds up happening is you eventually want to bring things in house. You want to be able to control development, um, a little bit better. And at that point, we started hiring up a full, um, engineering team.

• 6:22Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And then that, so then, um, Pictella sold to AOL?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  That's right. So that was also, um, believe it or not, about two years. So that was also a quick sell. Um, that was one of those things where I wasn't, we weren't in the market to sell. It's just that, um, AOL had new leadership. So Tim Armstrong had come over from Google. Uh, he, he had been head of sales for Google and, um, he was brought into AOL to turn around. Um, you know, one of the, one of the, you know, what was once one of the great internet companies of our time. And he had a vision of wanting to create new types of ad units, ones that could command a premium price. But he didn't have the technology to be able to serve really rich ads.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Um, and so, you know, his team was out searching for the right technology. They came upon us through a mutual friend. And it was one of those things where they made an offer that was very hard to refuse.

• 7:25Harry Stebbings?

  Did you get that same sinking feeling when you sold Pictella that you did when you were told about Dakota?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Well, no, it's a little bit different because Pictella was, um, you know, by the time we sold, we were still very early, right? It took us a year to build the platform. Um, and then we were just starting to get into the market and begin selling it when AOL came and approached us. And so that we, that not all the stars were in alignment yet, right? Um, we, you know, we, we didn't have tens of million dollars in revenue yet. Um, we didn't have a big company. It wasn't quite at the same stage of where Dakota was when it sold. And so it was a little bit easier to say, you know, you look at the cap table when somebody comes to you and you say, okay, well, we're gonna have to do another raise. And if we do another raise, we're gonna dilute by this much roughly.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  And if we do dilute by this much roughly, how much do we then have to sell the company later on to make the same amount of money?

• 8:23Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  And, you know, you go through that little back of the envelope calculation and sometimes you sit there and you look at each other, you go, you know what? Um, I think, I think we'll take this offer. And we, we did. And I wound up staying with AOL for a couple of years. I ran premium advertising for them. Um, using our technology as the underpinning to, to serving, um, really premium ads for the company.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  And during that time, I wound up meeting a British woman who became my wife. And after spending eleven years in New York, we both decided that it was time to to move away. And we were deciding between either Boston, where I'm from, or London, where she's from. And I just thought London would be more interesting.

• 9:15Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And so you moved to London?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  We packed our bags and moved to London. Yeah.

• 9:20Harry Stebbings?

  And then how did Techstars come about?

• 9:24Speaker 02

  So I, it must have been maybe like a week I landed and within about a week I was introduced to John Bradford.

• 9:32Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Who runs Techstars London, which is our general program here. And John and I sat for a coffee. For those of you who are listening, you probably all know John. He's incredibly well-connected in this ecosystem. And John looks at me and he says, you know, Greg, you look like a man with some time on his hands.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  And I said, well, yeah, I guess so. I just got here. So, you know, I figured I would look around and see what's going on. And, you know, he said, well, you know, we're looking to start this fintech program with Barclays as a partner. Would you be potentially interested in that? And I looked at him and I said, but John, you know, I'm an ad tech guy. This doesn't make any sense. And he said, well, you know, you'll pick it up. But first and foremost, Techstars looks for entrepreneurs for their MDs. He said, you know, you can find industry experts all you want.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  But what's actually really hard to find are are people who have, you know, gone through the VC races, been rejected multiple times, have built up the engineering team, have negotiated the sale of their own company. And he just said, that brings so much more credibility to when you're trying to advise entrepreneurs than any industry expert. And he said, industry expertise, and he said, also, what's great is you're going to have all these mentors. And all these mentors will have been twenty years in in financial services. And they're going to bring a lot of that industry expertise.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  And he said, so why didn't you think about it?

• 11:20Speaker 02

  And I walked away from that meeting thinking about it. And I did a lot of reading at that point. I started looking into what was going on in the fintech space. Of course, the first wave of what I would consider to be the famous London fintech startups had already begun. There's the TransferWise's were already out there, the funding circles. And I started to read up on them and I started to look at what was going on in the entire space on a global basis. And I realized that, you know, if you look at any industry, whether it's advertising

• 11:56Speaker 02

  or education or robotics or health, we've already begun to see a tremendous transformation of those industries. But when you look at financial services and the sheer size of it, in fact, it has seen very little innovation, at least that was the case two years ago.

• 12:18Harry Stebbings?

  And how do you think the fintech space has developed over the last two years then?

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Oh, it's, I mean, it is, to watch what has happened the last two years is, it's magical. You know, we're now seeing, at least here in London, we're seeing entrepreneurs from all over the world move here to start their fintech companies. And the transformation that's happened is things are no longer focused on peer-to-peer. Things are no longer just focused on remittance or on payments. We're seeing every aspect of financial services disrupted.

• 13:00Harry Stebbings?

  Would you go as far as saying London is the Silicon Valley of fintech?

• 13:04Speaker 02

  No, no, because I would say, I would say London is certainly becoming a center of fintech. I don't like to use the word Silicon Valley. That's a very unique, that's a very unique ecosystem and geography and community. But I would certainly say that London is, you know, it's funny, I hear this all the time, people are like, well, you know, is New York or London the fintech hubs of the world? I mean... At all, you can argue that any way you want, but I think London is certainly becoming or ta- it's certainly taking a leadership role in in fintech disruption.

• 13:50Harry Stebbings?

  And are there any areas of the fintech space, so that you personally find most interesting and why?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Sure, um, well, let me just take one step back because one of the things, I think what's what's interesting um, about, you know, why did I, why did I decide to do this, right? So you know, the opportunity, the opportunity for fintech today is the same opportunity I saw in ad tech fifteen years ago. It's just a blue ocean.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  And, you know, which segues into, you know, what gets me excited. Um, you know, why do I get out of bed in the morning and and do this every day? And, you know, one of the categories that is just, I think, phenomenal is the the notion of financial inclusion. Right? This is the aspect of financial services um in which there's a segment of people, whether here in the UK or in fact, most of the world, in which um there's a group of people that don't have bank accounts. They they are excluded from what we would consider to be traditional financial services.

• 14:57Harry Stebbings?

  Sure.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  And for companies that are trying to break that, right? They're trying to reinvent financial services to be able to work for segments of the population that banks have ignored for a long time. Um, that is extraordinarily exciting because it's one of those rare moments in at least my career, where as an investor, you can both, you can do two things. You can, you can both change the world and make the world a better place, but also make a lot of money in the process. Because if you think that, you know, something like eighty percent of the world doesn't have a bank account,

• 15:39Speaker 02

  doesn't have access to financial services, you're talking about one of the largest opportunities out there that has just been ignored for the longest time. And to be able to give somebody a bank account, to be able to give them loans, to be able to offer them financial services, it's amazing.

• 15:57Harry Stebbings?

  And why do you think it has been ignored?

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Well, because, um, you know, traditional banking is expensive, right? Um, banks that have branches, physical infrastructure, um, it's just very expensive to bank people. And in countries like, you know, Egypt, where the average salary is four thousand pounds, it's just not profitable to bank each person on a case by case basis. And so in order to, in order to bank them, you need to rethink financial services. And you've got to create something that's really light, very inexpensive to run. And it's just very hard for traditional global banks to be able to do that.

• 16:45Harry Stebbings?

  Of course, and, and then Techstars itself and, and your partnership with Barclays, what, what, what's the premise behind that? What do you, does Techstars and Barclays offer and what do you take in return?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  So thi- this program runs just like any other Techstars program. It's, it's a three month mentorship driven program. We choose ten companies to work with. Um, it's, we are specifically focused on fintech. Um, what is, what is fintech? I mean fintech is anything that touches financial services, um, including, you know, cybersecurity. And, you know, what it is, is so, so think of it as two components. One is there's the Techstars component. So we're very mentorship driven, meaning, um, in this program, we have about eighty mentors that come from different parts, aspects of the ecosystem.

• 17:40Harry Stebbings?

  And are they, are they all past founders?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  A lot of them are, right? So I have very specifically gone out and tried to get, um, entrepreneurs who have a lot of experience, not just in founding companies, but, you know, if possible, in fund, in founding financial service companies.

• 17:59Harry Stebbings?

  And do they get equity or do they get, is it a charitable donation of time?

• 18:03Speaker 02

  It's a charitable donation of time. I know this sounds, it's one of the things that boggled my mind the most when I, when I first joined Techstars, which is I just couldn't understand why people would do this. Why would they, why would they give so freely of their time? And but but but think of it this way, it's a self-selecting thing. Meaning the the best mentors are the ones that typically they're they're very successful, right? They have had very successful careers and they're used. This is a way for them to give back and it's a way for them to help the next generation. So it's not surprising that most of the really great mentors are are people with families, right? And so they just have this this notion of giving back to the next generation.

• 18:49Harry Stebbings?

  That really nicely brings me to to the next question about the characteristics of effective mentors. And for potential listeners thinking about taking on mentors, what do you think is important for founders to look for in mentors?

• 19:05Speaker 02

  I mean, the best mentors are the ones that are intellectually curious. So you can get a sense pretty quickly by talking to somebody whether or not they love to work on puzzles. So are these the people who can sit down with you and just very quickly and and they they they they? You can see that as you bring your strategic problems with them, to them their eyes light up. They love this idea of sitting in front of a whiteboard and beginning to draw out um this puzzle. And most entrepreneurial challenges are puzzles, typically they're strategic problems. And these are people, these are mentors who just love that challenge.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  And they derive a lot of intrinsic value from working with working with entrepreneurs on those challenges. And then and then second, I would say, and perhaps even more more important or just as important, is people who are intellectually honest. So um mentors who are not going to just smile at you and tell you what you want to hear. But they're people who will be honest with you on what the challenges are. And will show you all of the ugly parts of of your business in order to help you um make them more beautiful.

• 20:22Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, do you think mentors are necessary for startups in their early growth?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think mentors are are most necessary in the early growth of companies. You know, you think about the two things that entrepreneurs have the least of, which is time and money. If talking to a mentor can get you onto the right strategic path faster, if it can help you avoid some of the most common mistakes that entrepreneurs make. And the thing is that entrepreneurs make a lot of the same thematic mistakes over and over again. By simply being a good mentor, you can help that entrepreneur move faster and save time.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  And, you know, the younger the company is, the more susceptible it is to getting derailed. And so I would say it's the mentorship is absolutely critical in those early formation time.

• 21:18Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I really want to talk to you about SmartUp, your new venture. We obviously had Frank Meehan on the show, episode thirteen. Can you tell us who else is involved and what the concept and plans for the future are?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so SmartUp is being built in conjunction with Founders Forum, which is led by Brent Hoberman.

• 21:42Harry Stebbings?

  Of LastMinute.com.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Of LastMinute.com. And so Frank and Brent and Johnny Goodwin from Founders Forum, they're all kind of pulling this together. And Founders Forum is a, it's a membership of entrepreneurs. And so some of the most famous entrepreneurs in the world are part of this this this community called Founders Forum.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  The the concept of SmartUp is really tapping into this nascent and growing, rapidly growing community of would be entrepreneurs. So people who are thinking about being the next, you know, the next founders. And

• 22:29Speaker 02

  What they're trying to do is they're, we're building a platform that takes this notion of mentoring. Right? It's, it's giving advice, it is giving wisdom, it is giving interviews, much like I'm doing right now. And it, and it's packaging it all together into this simulation platform where people can, they can, they can pretend they're starting up a certain type of company, right? And they can go through the marketing plan, go through the digital media strategy, they can go through the raise, and they can simulate all this aspect of founding a company

• 23:08Speaker 02

  in preparation for becoming an entrepreneur. Right? So if you think about Techstars as being, you know, at the stage where an entrepreneur has a, you know, MVP, they've got a product, they're entering the market, they've got a team. SmartUp is for, you know, people who are getting ready to be that entrepreneur. They're not, they haven't made the step yet, but they wanna begin to build on their knowledge and build on their education to get ready for it. And given the fact that now, you know, being an entrepreneur is the coolest thing since sliced bread and everybody wants to do it, um, I think the timing of the product into the market is perfect.

• 23:50Harry Stebbings?

  And, and what are your plans for the future personally with it? Are you gonna take a much more active role in it and take a step back from Barclays? Or how, how do you see your role playing out?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  I, I'm, I'm a, I'm a founding investor.

• 24:04Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Right? So Frank came to me, he's, you know, told me what he was wanting to do way at the beginning and, you know, when he had just a couple of pages of PowerPoint. And I got really excited, but, you know, ultimately, um, I have taken on this role with Techstars because I also love to, I love to invest. And it's something that I wanna begin to and continue to scale up in my own way. You know, so five years from now, I'll still be, you know, I'll still be angel investing. It's one of the most gratifying things I think anybody can do.

• 24:39Harry Stebbings?

  And, and if it's okay with you, we're gonna move on into a quickfire round, where I say a word or short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:49Harry Stebbings?

  Where do you see yourself in five years' time then?

• 24:53Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll be working with entrepreneurs. So whether it's through Techstars or some other mechanism, I'll be investing and continuing to stay close to people who are building great companies.

• 25:08Harry Stebbings?

  And what tip would you give fintech entrepreneurs?

• 25:14Speaker 02

  I would say, don't be afraid to collaborate. There are a lot of fintech entrepreneurs who are, you know, they're staying away from the traditional banks because they feel like they're trying to disrupt them. But my one recommendation would be, you know, big banks are fantastic potential partners. They're great potential distributors and they are, they're in a time period right now where they're looking for innovation and they're looking to partner with young startups. And so don't be afraid, just because you're doing something disruptive, doesn't mean you can't partner with one of the large financial incumbents.

• 25:52Harry Stebbings?

  And, and do you think disruption then is wholly good or wholly bad? I mean, I know Peter Thiel has his views on disruption actually being a bad thing. What do you think about disruption?

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Well, it depends on what it's trying to accomplish.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  You know, I think in, in, in things like financial inclusion, where the disruption is more of this creation of new services that are lightweight and able to bank billions of people who never had it before, it's an incredible value generator.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  In cases where disruption might lead to many people getting laid off and not being, not, and being laid off just purely for technology's sake, I think during the period of, of transition of people, as people are learning new skills, it becomes very hard, it's hard on society. But ultimately disruption is, you know, in its best form creates a lot of value, not just for investors, but for society at large.

• 27:01Harry Stebbings?

  And then finally, can you name three companies from either, well, from the Barclays Accelerator or Techstars that you're most excited about and why?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Um, well, I never play favorites, right? Um, and so it's very hard for me, very hard for me to answer this question. Um, but I will certainly, what I'll do is I'll frame it as I'll give you three companies that are here in, based here in London. Okay. Um, and that are oftentimes in the news. Perfect. So there is, uh, there's a company, um, that came out of my last cohort called AIR, A-I-R-E. And they're creating an alternative scoring methodology for people, um, who don't typically have credit scores. And so the catch 22 of getting a credit score is you oftentimes need to have a credit history. And if you don't have a credit history, you can't get a credit score. So what do you do?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  And so AIR is trying to tackle that problem again around this notion of financial inclusion. Um, so that new people can enter into the credit system. Okay. Uh, the second company would be Squirrel. And what Squirrel does is they tie into a, an employer's payroll in order to provide the employees with better financial management tools. And the idea here is if you can, you know, if you can tap into people's pay, um, you are, you are getting them to think about their finances at the moment in which they typically acquire money. Absolutely.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  And that, and that is the most critical moment. And the hope here is that through their platform, they can dramatically reduce the need for, um, short-term loans and, and payday loans. And then the third company, um, also based here in London is called DuPay. And, uh, DuPay has an operation in Egypt. I'd kind of alluded to it before. Um, and what they do is they, uh, have pay, what's called payroll cards and a smartphone app. And people in Egypt, um, most people who have a job don't have a bank account. And so what they do is they typically get paid by the company in cash.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  And so if everyone in Egypt is getting paid in cash, it becomes um not just costly for society and for the employer, but it's also dangerous for them.

• 29:29Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  And so what.

• 29:30Harry Stebbings?

  And robberies.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  That's right. And and so what Do Pay does is you get paid with a um a prepaid debit card and you have a smartphone app that controls that prepaid debit card. And it allows you to do remittances, it allows you to top up your phone, it allows you to um to do all these different types of financial services. And of course, they can still go to an ATM and pull out cash if they want. But it's just a way, it's it's it's think of it almost as a new form of bank. Because it's it's not like they're going to a traditional bank and and having their pay deposited there. Instead, they're getting it deposited into this lightweight financial model.

• 30:08Harry Stebbings?

  Like a pay as you go bank.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  A little bit, yeah. And it's the pay as you go is your payroll.

• 30:14Harry Stebbings?

  Incredible. Well, Greg, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've hugely enjoyed chatting with you.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Harry, it's been my sincere pleasure.

• 30:22Harry Stebbings?

  Now, for all the items and resources mentioned in today's show with Greg, please do head on over to the blog at www dot the twenty minute V C dot com. And we would love to hear what you think of the show. So please do leave your reviews on iTunes and we can't wait to see you in the next episode.