20 VC 008: Startup 101 with Mark Peter Davis

Mark Peter Davis is a serial founder and investor. He is the founder of Interplay Ventures with investments in the likes of Venwise and Warby Parker, just to name a few. Mark is also author of 'The Fundraising Rules', which clearly outlines the funding process of startups. If that wasn't enough Mark is Adjunct Professor of Entrepreneurship at the Singularity University. Business Insider has listed Mark as one of the most influential Digital NYers and is included in a list of the 30 most interesting members of the Columbia University Startup Community by CVC30. Items Mentioned in Todays Show: The Fundraising Rules FounderShield Nomad Financial In this episode you will learn: How Mark got into the VC industry? How startup founders can increase their network and gain influential mentors? When looking at startups what makes Mark want to get involved? What are the biggest mistakes made by startup founders? What are the key characteristics for a founder to have, in order to be successful? How does an individual or startup get a meeting with a VC? What Mark would advise graduates wanting to get into the Venture Capital Industry. We end todays show with The Ultimate Quick Fire Round. Here Marks explains his views on startup valuations and how much equity the traditional VC looks for when investing. Thank you so much for listening, if you are loving the show please do subscribe on iTunes and I would be so grateful if you would leave a review. If you do, you will be entered into the competition to win a meeting with one of the VCs and all the books mentioned in the first 10 episodes.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Hello and welcome to episode eight of the 20 Minute VC. You're listening to Harry Stebbings and on today's show, I'm so excited to introduce you to Mark Peter Davis. Mark is currently the founder of Interplay Ventures, who have investments in the likes of Coinbase and Course Hero. Mark is also the author of The Fundraising Rules, designed to guide the founders through the process of funding. But before we jump into the interview, would you like the chance to win all the books mentioned in the first 10 episodes of the 20 Minute VC? As well as your chance to pitch to one of the VCs interviewed? If so, all you have to do is head on over to iTunes and leave a review.

• 0:41Harry Stebbings?

  Then email [email protected] with the name that you left the review under in iTunes. Ladies and gents, it's time for me to shut up. Let's welcome Mark.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 1:00Harry Stebbings?

  Mark, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's a great pleasure to have you on. And first, a little bit about your background. What was the real reason for you entering into the venture capital world?

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Well, I've been a lifelong entrepreneur. It was never something I really chose as a career. It's always been a hobby and a passion. It started as early as elementary school where I was selling candy or baseball cards, candy in junior high, and computers in high school to graduating seniors. I tried to start five companies in college, the list goes on and on. And eventually, through the course of my career, I fell into the venture game in an attempt to become a better entrepreneur, learn a different side of the business, start to pattern match across companies, see what works, what doesn't, and learn a lot of the pitfalls so I could avoid them myself. And then through that process, I just enjoyed it and have continued on with it.

• 1:51Harry Stebbings?

  And what did you learn? You said you started five companies. What did you learn from, I mean, how did they go firstly? How did they go?

• 1:58Speaker 02

  You know, when I first started out, this is back in college, quite a long time ago, mixed ideas. Some ideas were good, some were bad, but consistently terrible execution. And I think one of my biggest takeaways from that era was that there's a tremendous amount of knowledge required to be a successful entrepreneur. It is truly a mentorship sport. And if you don't have the right advisors around you, the right people will support you. You can you can you can fail for things that are very avoidable. Uh, the way I think about it is people like to say starting a company is like a marathon. Uh, but it's a little different in my perspective is it's not a marathon. It's five thousand steps.

• 2:38Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  And each step represents one simple, small, usually easy decision. The key is being able to make a pretty high have a pretty high hit rate of making a good set of decisions against those small decisions. And if you do that consistently pretty well, if you're eighty or ninety or better percent of the time making the right choices, you will stay on the true course and build a great company. But it's it's it's an accumulation of very small trivial decisions that can take you off course, which if you have the right people around you, you can avoid.

• 3:09Harry Stebbings?

  And and how did you get the right people around you? I'm assuming you did because you're very successful and done very well. So how did you um get the right network of connections around you to help mentor you?

• 3:22Speaker 02

  I think it's tenacity, people who are truly passionate about entrepreneurship, um, who love the process of creating, uh, tend to gravitate towards each other. Uh, and the the entrepreneurial game, while it can be a role emotional roller coaster for a lot of folks, is a very inspiring one. And so if it's something that's that runs in your blood and uh and you really enjoy it, once you find yourself in uh one of these communities and talking to folks, uh, there's a lot of people who want to help. I think uniquely, uh, the startup community, unlike most of the other uh business worlds I have experienced, people benefit are actually motivated and incentivized to help each other.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Uh, in the startup world, we're not fighting over zero sum games like how, you know, three companies chasing one client. We're creating new products, new businesses. So the competitive nature, while it's there, is less robust than more established industries where players are going head to head. It's much more dynamic of building something new, expanding the markets, expanding the opportunities. And so the the culture and the nature of it is a lot more supportive and helpful.

• 4:28Harry Stebbings?

  And for potential startup founders, how would you recommend that they could increase their network or or gain a mentor that they've been wanting to gain? Would you recommend reaching out to them um out of the blue? Or would you recommend kind of building? Can access from your internet work.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  There's a couple of answers to this. First is, I think getting out there and going to networking events. If your, if your community is a robust startup ecosystem, you get out, you go to events, you'll meet people. I think obviously attracting interesting investors can help you. Not all, but a lot of investors have a lot of operational experience, and the folks who have started and managed companies can provide tremendous insight. I think the way to hack all of it, if you don't have either of those available to you, is to surround yourself by tier A service providers. There are a tremendous number of service providers in the market, and I'll talk to you about something I've actually done to this and to enable this. But a lot of them actually,

• 5:28Speaker 02

  you know, they don't really understand startups. You might, you might need insurance, and you can get insurance from the guy who sells insurance, but he's never been around a startup. He usually works at law firms or different types of businesses, and he doesn't have the wisdom or knowledge to really be a useful advisor. But there are, there's traditionally been a dearth of folks out there who go into the services space with the goal of not just providing a great service and, you know, delivering the underlying ask, but also becoming advisors. There hasn't been much of that. So one of the things we've done at Interplay is we've actually started about eight companies that are designed to support entrepreneurs, not just through providing the core service, but also providing, you know, the business advice, the connective

• 6:12Speaker 02

  tissue, the knowledge, the introductions, to help people actually run their companies. So to give you a little sense of the types of companies, we have a company called Founder Shield, which is a very prolific insurance brokerage focused on startups. They, they serve a whole lot of companies at this point, and the guys who run it are really from the startup community. They're tech entrepreneurs. They're making introductions. They're doing all sorts of things that are outside the scope of just getting the insurance right, which in and alone, it's, which in and of itself is a differentiator. We've got a company called Nomad Financial. Nomad is a similar thing focused on everything from bookkeeping to CFO service and beyond. And it's run by the former head of finance of Vimeo. So clients come in, they ask, they get their bookkeeping,

• 6:57Speaker 02

  but they've got a group, a team they can churn to who is living and breathing the startup community can make introductions, provide advice, you know, warn people about pitfalls. DevSpark, software development run by a venture, former venture back CTO turned CEO, sold his company. Same type of thing on the development and product side, everything under the sun on the product. Truman James, same thing around real estate. Venwise, educational platform. It gives you a little sense.

• 7:23Harry Stebbings?

  When these companies pitched to you, so when Nomad pitched to you, what was it that made you go, I wanna, I wanna be involved, I've gotta have this? Was there something the founders did or was there an aspect of the company that was so attractive to you?

• 7:38Speaker 02

  I think the, the usual answer to this is the pretty generic stuff. It's, you know, market sized team, everyone talks about that stuff. In fact, there's a, a business school case study that a lot of the MBA VCs have done, where you read about three different companies and you're asked to pick the one to bet on. Now, one of them has a huge market, one's got an incredible team and one is a stellar technology. And it turns out, all three are real companies that were massively successful and were public, are publicly traded. And so you really can't pick a loser. The game though is to figure out what type of investor you are, right? And some people really bet on markets, some people bet on teams, some people bet on technology or more broadly barriers. I look for it all.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  I, I try not to sacrifice. I think the thing, which makes me a little bit more picky than average. I think the thing that sets apart my thesis and which is not, you know, entirely unique, there's probably nothing unique out there in the investment world, is we really focus on two things. Companies that have the right fundamentals which fit into the prior buckets. Market traction for us is also important, it's not important to everybody. The last thing is, most people who are looking for a team are looking for a very competent team. That's what I used to do at some of the prior venture firms I'd worked at. I am very much focused on people I wanna hang out with. Right, taking it to a new level, a personal relationship.

• 9:04Harry Stebbings?

  Well, don't they say the seven-year itch is is kind of similar to the VC world, you know, the seven-year itch of marriage after seven years?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 9:12Harry Stebbings?

  Um, and it's similar to and applicable to the VC industry. You've got to be able to spend a considerable amount of your of your lifetime with these entrepreneurs.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Sure, but I think there's a different level between um picking someone who's competent, that you can trust, uh and who you can do business with. And trying to find folks that you actually want to spend your free time with beyond that. And I find that the personal relationships overlaid on the business. Enable more transparency, more honesty. You end up spending more time together because you enjoy it. So everyone helps each other in a more productive way. Um, and it's just a hell of a lot more fun.

• 9:46Harry Stebbings?

  So would you recommend to to startup founders out there to try and build personal relationships? Because I think quite a lot worry that they don't want to overstep the the professional mark. Do you know what I mean?

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with that. I think it it's a dangerous zone. It's a higher beta scenario. It's either going to make you worse off or far better off.

• 10:03Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Uh, if you've got high emotional IQ, integrity, uh and pretty good social skills, you're almost always going to be better off.

• 10:11Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, absolutely. And if the must haves for a startup are quite generic, are there are there any real turn offs? That that just complete red flags make you go, no, I don't want anything to do with this.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there there's there's, so I wrote a book called The Fundraising Rules. I have an entire section called Things Not To Do.

• 10:32Harry Stebbings?

  And all of this can be in the show notes, by the way, just so.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, great. So I'll I'll add one, I'll add one thing that's an easy one that you'd be surprised how often it happens. Is founders fighting during the meeting? You know, uh, it's kind of a fun one to talk about because it seems a little bit shocking, but you know, you get into one, you ask, you know, the right question, there's some strategic question. And they start having a debate in a, you know, uh, it it may be an unproductive way. It's healthy debate's great, but you get a little sense of the founder dynamic. Uh, and obviously, if you've got a team that doesn't gel perfectly together, that's just gonna, that's just a time box.

• 11:06Harry Stebbings?

  Clear red flag.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  Yes, very much so.

• 11:09Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, and and then, so would you say the key characteristics that a founder must have is is? What would you say they are? I mean, it's not likability, obviously, but what would you say?

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think everyone talks about the visionary founder. Uh, I think that's important. You can have a lot of people with kind of lighter visions, um, that are good operators that, you know, are can be quite successful.

• 11:34Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think that's been slightly glamorized by the Steve Jobs image?

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Sure, and I I think there are times where it it transcends and becomes reality, and I I'm not against it. I just don't think, I think there's lots of types of founders out there that can be quite successful. I think you obviously want someone as motivated, hardworking and honest. I think the thing that's overlooked most often in business is basic organizational skills. I know that sounds like a trivial thing to offer. Can someone respond to their emails in a timely fashion, right?

• 12:02Harry Stebbings?

  I'm sorry.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Those basic things that just require, that are required for all operations for managing people. Increasingly in my career, I'm finding that to be a pretty high bar that filters out a lot of folks. Uh, and it's shocking because it's it's some of the easiest stuff to get right, but it's separating a lot of the best operators from the worst.

• 12:21Harry Stebbings?

  What would you say is an acceptable email response time?

• 12:25Speaker 02

  No, I would say, you know, if if it's more than a day or two, sometimes probably, you know, you should send an email and say it's gonna be a little bit, you know. It it depends on the situation. I think if someone's submitting a business plan into a black hole, you know, sometimes those get done in batches.

• 12:38Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  But general communication day to day, people missing emails, uh, you know, for the founders out there that have more, you know, who don't know how to get to zero inbox, I'd encourage you to try to work on that skill. Uh, I think that is massively productive.

• 12:53Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  But it's if you can't follow up with emails for your team, your customers, your investors, how are you going to optimize your success?

• 13:01Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  It's really trivial, very powerful.

• 13:04Harry Stebbings?

  And and they're moving off in a slightly different direction.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:07Harry Stebbings?

  If a graduate came to you and said, Mark, I really wanna become a VC, I've got immense passion, drive, and all the other characteristics needed, how can I get into the industry? What would you advise them?

• 13:22Speaker 02

  So I think there's a couple of things I'd say to this. First is there's a handful of types of VCs out there. And I would pick one of those VC types and build your skill set accordingly so you kind of fit the mold.

• 13:34Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  There's investor types who have done investing as a background coming into the role. There's operators who have worked in startups or other companies and kind of built that skill set. There's domain experts, so they might be the, you know, in the IT world, the PhD in computer science. Or someone who's been a CTO, which kind of crosses both operations as well. Or there's a generalist who's done a little bit of operations, a little bit of investing, all of those things. So I would start by saying, asking myself who I realistically could be and be successful at being. And start building a career roadmap to take me along the path. The second thing I would say is this is very much a game of being in the right place at the right time.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  And the way to make that not completely random is to be a lot of places a lot of the time. So getting coffee, just meet and greets, informational sessions with lots and lots of folks. And then standing in front of them by adding value, sending them deals, showing them that you can do the job and have thoughtfulness about it, even if you're junior in your career.

• 14:34Harry Stebbings?

  And is that, is that literally cold calling them or cold emailing them if you?

• 14:37Speaker 02

  No, I think you can tweet at people, you meet people at events. I think it is okay to email them, but it's hard to get the meeting if you're just sending a cold email. But if you send, if you send in, hey, I came across this deal, I thought you'd want to look at it, you know. And the person says, you know, it's not for me, and you write back, great, you know, would you mind having a picture of Brian a little bit on, on the career? You're not going to get a hundred percent conversion on that, but they might forward you to one of their colleagues. That's a great way to fly.

• 15:04Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think Twitter is a good medium to contact VCs through?

• 15:07Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 15:08Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think Twitter is a good medium to contact VCs?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  I do think it is. For IT VCs, I think it's a very good medium. It demonstrates cultural integration into the community.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Because we're obviously, I use Twitter quite a bit.

• 15:21Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Um, and I think one of the keys to it is the idea that there's, the VCs don't always have um extensive recruiting departments like a big company. You know, a big VC is usually a ten person firm. So when they decide they're gonna need another person, they're gonna usually, especially at the smaller firms, just look for someone that they already knew, do their five interviews and pick somebody.

• 15:43Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  So the goal is to be standing outside the door when it opens. So you need to have already taken the initiative to get in front of folks.

• 15:51Harry Stebbings?

  And you mentioned the different types of investors. Do you think they favor their own type? So, you know, a CTO will favor applicants who have also been CTOs? Or do you think they're quite general in their admissions policies?

• 16:06Speaker 02

  I suppose it uh depends on the firm, but I think there's a little bit of strategy for a firm to build out its team, uh to get diversity, to help it be a bit better at investing, but also to help it tell a better story to investors who invest in their fund, their limited partners. So I think a firm of investors, just pure investors, might be quite keen to get an operator or domain expert.

• 16:26Harry Stebbings?

  And I, do you mind if we move on now to a quick fire round?

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 16:31Harry Stebbings?

  Where I say a short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:37Harry Stebbings?

  Startup valuations.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Nuanced. Uh, and the reason I say that is because I think there's some misconceptions about how valuations are contrived.

• 16:52Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Uh, it's something I frequently talk about when I'm, when I'm giving presentations at accelerators or otherwise. Uh, would you mind if I elaborate for a minute here?

• 17:01Harry Stebbings?

  No, no, no, please do, we've got time.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, so most people think about their valuation in terms of the general VC equation of pre-money valuation plus the investment equals the post-money valuation.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  And so the gist on that is if your company is worth five million dollars for everything that's happened to date, the team, the brand, everything you've done, and you raise five million dollars, it will be worth ten million dollars afterward. And so when you look at that equation, we're all trained in grade school that to work on the inputs on the left and deal with the output on the right. And it makes it quite confusing because a VC might say to you, what valuation are you thinking? And in that conversation, you'll look at this and say, well, I don't really know how to calculate my pre-money valuation. You can triangulate from market norms, you know, most companies don't have cash flows, so all the traditional valuation methodologies go out the door. But there's no real way to figure out how to answer that question. So people fumble with it.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  They show a lack of sophistication. It's not a crisis, but you know, it's an opportunity to impress folks and position yourself to negotiate well. The trick is VCs don't look at it the same way. Focus on the other two, on the other side of it. We ask ourselves, how much of the company are we going to be able to buy for the investment that they need? And the investment they need is twelve, is eighteen to twenty-four months of runway. So you do the financial model, you say, we need a million dollars to take this eighteen months out. Okay. And you know, you look at the market norms for how much equity you can buy for that, and we use that to divide and back into a valuation and figure out what the pre-money would be.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  So the right way to answer that question is actually a little different. You wouldn't say, you know, right valuation's five. I think the right way to say it is, hey, look, we need a million dollars to go eighteen to twenty-four months. We know there's kind of norms around how much ownership the capital buys at this stage of the game. And, you know, we're looking for a normal deal, and therefore that implies a certain pre-money valuation.

• 19:03Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I've got two questions just shooting off from that.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 19:06Harry Stebbings?

  Should a founder be bold then in their valuation to VCs, or should they be quite conservative?

• 19:13Speaker 02

  I think the best approach in this, in the VC dynamic is to keep people at the table.

• 19:19Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Uh, and then let, if there are a lot of people get interested, if the market's favorable for your company, then you let them drive the price up. So I think starting with aggressive asks can get people turned off pretty quickly and you can reduce the, you can change the dynamic uh and, and take bidders away. Whereas if you get a whole bunch of people bidding at an average valuation, you may end up with a very high one at the end of the process.

• 19:42Harry Stebbings?

  And then secondly, we talked about equity for VCs. What is the traditional or not traditional, but what, what is the desired amount of equity generally for a VC? Are they looking at a twenty percent or a five percent? What would be your ideal?

• 19:57Speaker 02

  I think in the kind of well-developed venture markets, the fat part of the bell curve is sitting around at twenty percent buy at every round.

• 20:05Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  And you know, for very hot deals, you're looking at something as low as five percent. And for less attractive deals as high as thirty.

• 20:13Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  That's the gist.

• 20:15Harry Stebbings?

  And would you say that competition between VCs now for very hot startups is, is rife?

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's very high.

• 20:23Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Uh, the best startups are, you know, in most cases are turning away investors.

• 20:28Harry Stebbings?

  And how do they choose which investors, do you think?

• 20:31Speaker 02

  It depends on the firm. I mean, a lot of entrepreneurs in their first go around will, will choose just on brand cachet. Um, there's usually the firms that have big brands usually also have a lot of value to add. So there's some correlation there, but it's not always the case. Uh, I think, uh, the, the smartest entrepreneurs are picking first and foremost based on their relationship with the firm and the partner. If they find that they've got a VC investor who understands that they're not, that they're not the CEO or the founder's boss, but that they're their minority partner and they're there to support them, uh, they're a pretty compelling and attractive partner to pick. But there's more than that. You might want to pick a, an investor who has worked in your industry.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Or if you've got a sales operation that's quite complicated, who has built a sales operation either as an operator or in another company that they're involved with. So there are other strategic reasons to look for folks. I think ideally every entrepreneur should find one investor. Or one advisor who's a terrific person they trust. There's a good relationship, they can go to them with tough questions. And they know that the person's gonna, you know, deal well with them when things are hard and and when things are good, you know, not be a fair weather fan and come down and be angry at bad news, but try to resolve things and be a partner in the business.

• 21:48Harry Stebbings?

  And finally, last question, do you think there are any cases where where startups shouldn't raise VC funds?

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So, as I mentioned a minute ago, I wrote a book called The Fundraising Rules, which is a handbook for entrepreneurs to help them navigate the fundraising process. It's literally built in a chronological order of step by step, preparing for the meeting, what to do in the meeting, what to do after the meeting and so on. The beginning of the book centers around whether or not you should raise capital from venture guys or angels or otherwise. And I think it's one of the biggest mistakes people make in terms of destroying their return as an entrepreneur. Is if you ask an entrepreneur, you know, what's gonna drive your value? They'll say, well, we gotta get the right team together, product, market, all the generic stuff. Very few people talk about how they capitalize the company. Not how much money they raise, but who they take it from.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  In my view, the goal is to achieve alignment. You wanna find investors that are interested in the economic opportunities. So, looking at the cross-section of your market size and your barriers to understand kind of what the opportunity really is there for them.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  And how much capital you require. But there are a lot of companies out there, founders who could build very small, successful businesses, but take venture capital because thinking it's the only option and basically destroy their return. Let me give you an example. Entrepreneur goes out, builds and raises venture capital, thinks they're gonna build a twenty, thirty, forty million dollar top line, and the business plateaus at five million dollars. Because they, you know, that was the potential of the business and they maybe had unrealistic expectations going into it. Well, if you're a VC investor, a five million dollar revenue line and you own a very small piece of it is typically a failure. And you're going to explore new business strategies, you're going to bring in more capital to try to stimulate growth, all things which are diluting the entrepreneur and potentially

• 23:39Speaker 02

  putting the business at risk. Whereas if that entrepreneur financed it with a partner who was quite happy with a $5 million top line that might pay out profits and it was a smaller business, they could be quite successful.

• 23:50Harry Stebbings?

  So bootstrap.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  On the opposite side, you want to make sure you take VC. If you've got a big opportunity and you need a lot of capital, land grab, you have to take the capital and go for it. The key is to get alignment.

• 24:01Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. Well, well, thank you so much, Mark, for coming on the show today. It's been an absolute honour chatting with you. And and I look forward to having you on the show again in the future, hopefully.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 24:14Harry Stebbings?

  Now, for all the resources mentioned in this stage show, head on over to www dot the twenty minute VC dot com, where you'll be able to find them all under the homepage. And I would really like to hear your opinion on the intro that we have at the moment. So there will be a poll on the www dot twenty minute VC dot com blog, where you'll be able to vote whether you like it or not. I really appreciate your feedback and I can't wait to see you all in the next episode.