20 Sales: The Biggest Challenges Building Outbound Sales Teams and How To Overcome Them | How The Best Sales Reps Do Customer Discovery | 2 Elements Sales Teams Are Always Responsible For | Sam Taylor, VP Sales and Customer Success @ Loom

Sam Taylor is the VP of Sales and Customer Success @ Loom, an essential tool for hybrid and remote teams allowing you to record quick videos of your screen and cam. At Loom Sam leads Revenue Org including: Direct Sales, Customer Success, Self-Serve Revenue Growth/Assist, Sales Development, Global Customer Support, Revenue Ops + Strategy and Sales Enablement. Prior to Loom, Sam spent over 4 years at Salesforce, following their acquisition of Quip, where he was the first sales leader. Before Salesforce and Quip, Sam spent over 3 years at Dropbox as a mid-market sales leader. In Today's Episode We Discuss: 1.) Entry into the World of Sales: How did Sam land his first big role in sales at Salesforce? How did the sales orgs differ when comparing Salesforce to Dropbox? What are 1-2 of Sam's biggest lessons from his time at Salesforce and Dropbox that shapes how he thinks today? 2.) Sales People Should Be Customer Therapists: What is the right way to approach customer discovery? How can sales reps get potential customers on a call in the first place? What are the right questions to ask? What engenders the most honesty? What are the wrong questions to ask? What are common mistakes? How do the best sales reps then feed that back to customer success and product? 3.) The When and The Who: When should founders consider hiring their first sales hire? Should this hire be a sales leader or a sales rep? What are the nuances? What are the characteristics of the best first sales hires? What are the first sales hires really on the hook for? Why does Sam disagree with the word "playbook" and instead suggest "frameworks"? 4.) How To Hire The Best: The Process What are Sam's lessons on what it takes to hire the very best sales reps? What are the right questions to ask in the interview process? What tangible case studies or tests are done to measure quality? Who is brought into the hiring process and at what stage?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  This is 20 Sales, the monthly sales show where we interview the best sales leaders to reveal their tips, tactics and strategies. When it comes to starting and scaling sales teams today, I'm so thrilled to be joined today by a friend and incredible sales leader, Sam Taylor, VP of Sales and Customer Success at Loom, an essential tool for hybrid and remote teams, allowing you to record quick videos of your screen and camera. At Loom, Sam leads all things revenue org, including direct sales, customer success, self-serve, sales development and more. And prior to Loom, Sam spent over four years at Salesforce, following the acquisition of Quip, where he was the first sales leader, and before Salesforce and Quip, Sam spent over three years at Dropbox as a mid-market sales leader. I'd love your thoughts on these sales shows. You can find me on Twitter at Harry Stebbings.

• 0:45Harry Stebbings?

  But before we dive into the show today, Harmonic.ai can be a total game changer for your company and your sales team specifically, for two core reasons. First, lead gen. Brex, Ramp, Vouch, Carter and many others are using Harmonic's filters to define their ICP and build feeds of companies that are matching their criteria, whether it be newly formed, recently funded, key hires made, et cetera. And then second, qualification. Companies with a PLG motion like Notion, Superhuman, are using Harmonic's integrations to enrich new leads as they come in. This allows them to shorten their forms and quickly dedicate sales resources to qualified leads. As I said, this gives your sales team superpowers they've never had before. You must check them out at Harmonic.ai.

• 1:29Harry Stebbings?

  And now you've heard me talk a lot about product-led sales on my podcast and on LinkedIn, and that's because it's the future of how modern software companies go to market. I first heard about it from a company called Endgame, and they're creating the product-led sales category with a new product you should know about. I was too late to get in on their seed round, admittedly, and now they're doing really well and I'm slightly kicking myself. Endgame helps companies like Figma, Launch Darkly, Calendly and Loom find the right accounts to focus on, based on product signals, identify the users within those accounts that they should target, and take action to drive more revenue faster. They're in beta right now, but if you use the code HARRY, the team has promised to give you an exclusive demo of the product. Check out endgame.ai. Forward slash demo to see what they are building.

• 2:12Harry Stebbings?

  And finally, speaking of core infrastructure for your sales teams, Sales Loft is the leading sales engagement platform, helping sales teams drive more revenue with the modern revenue workspace. It's the one place sales teams can go to prospect, manage active deals and get the insights they need to coach seller performance, forecast with accuracy and find out what steps to take to close more deals. Some of the world's leading companies like IBM, Shopify and Stripe all love and use Sales Loft and so can you. It's the new way to sell. Find out more at salesloft.com. But that is quite enough from me. So now I'm so excited to welcome an old friend in Sam Taylor, VP of Sales and Customer Success at Loom.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 2:59Harry Stebbings?

  Sam, this is such a joy. You know, I always love our chats, but thank you so much for putting up with my dulcet tones once again.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Get out of here with that. It's always great to see you, always great to hear from you.

• 3:10Harry Stebbings?

  You know, fake humility is always good to have. But for those that missed our first show, tell me, how did you make your way into the world of tech? And most importantly, sales, what was that entry point for you?

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Not a direct line from university or school, straight into it. Held a number of random jobs in a number of different industries. So studied environmental science, did environmental consulting. I was on the purchasing side of the house that got me on the phones at a silicon wafer distribution company. Won't even give it an or unpack what that means. But ultimately got my start on both the technology and sales side at Salesforce back in 2010. Was fortunate enough to stumble my way into the Dropbox organization as one of their first five salespeople back in 2011. And it's really snowballed from there. So have been having the opportunity to learn from and work with some amazing teams between the Dropbox crew slash now Mafia. I think a number of folks have been on this show with you. And then also ended up on a couple of small growth teams at Quip,

• 4:05Speaker 02

  which brought me back to Salesforce. And then now been holding things down with the Loom crew for the last roughly 18 months.

• 4:11Harry Stebbings?

  I mean, actually it's perfect timing because we released a show just recently with Genya. And obviously he spent time, I presume with you at Dropbox. And so I'm fascinated here. When we think about sales. Salesforce and Dropbox, two such iconic companies. If we were to isolate like one or two takeaways for you from each, what would you say those are that have really shaped how you think today as a sales leader?

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Dropbox, with it being a decently early pioneer, if we want to call it, on the product-led side of the house. I think the early learning for me, particularly as we were building the direct sales motion in tandem with the product-led side, is security is not enough. You need to find more value than just security when you're thinking about a consolidation plan. I think a learning for me along the way was we were really trying to take the density of user engagement and our de facto was going and selling to IT or CIOs around how do we roll this up and how do we protect the house, so to speak? Which, when you put it in those terms, you're basically positioning your service as a liability, as opposed to a value add. And effective in certain ways, but in the environment where I think that we have to make sure

• 5:12Speaker 02

  that we are continuing to align with the goals of our customers, align with the impact and particularly on the future of work side of things, like what are we doing to enable a more effective and efficient workforce? And so I think really taking that lens, particularly when I went to Quip, which was my next opportunity, and really focusing on the workflow and the day-to-day engagement and impact. And then how do you roll up that positive, that additive experience as a core part of your value prop? That was a key takeaway for me for Dropbox.

• 5:40Harry Stebbings?

  Before we move into Dropbox, I do just want to ask, in terms of like the product-led growth in the enterprise in tandem, when you advise startup founders today, given what you've seen in terms of what it takes to do both of them at the same time successfully, do you advise startups to not do them both at the same time? Or do you think startups can execute both the PLG and the enterprise heavier touch sale at the same time?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  I think it depends on the offering that you have. As an example, if I take Loom, Loom has only had a sales team for two years at this point, so relatively nascent. Loom has had customers and users, which we've been monetizing for more years than that, roughly four years. The product shift and strategy that we were making was moving from you were only in previous, prior to a sales organization being here, able to consume and use Loom as an individual. And then it wasn't until we were moving into there being a multiplayer team and company state, where you're going to be expanding and looking At the use cases, but also the potential buyer personas that you're trying to go after, expanding in a more significant way. And at that point, it makes sense to layer on. So if I'm reversing back what I just said, it's think about who is going to be involved in being able to make a decision of,

• 6:45Speaker 02

  is this applicable to me? And do I want to pay for this service? And if that individual can go and make that on their own, or small teams can do it without inserting a human into the process, that will always be a more efficient path to acquisition. Really, when you're looking at your opportunity to move further and further up market, that's where you start layering in, should we have selling capacity that is incremental and complementary to what you have going on the product side?

• 7:09Harry Stebbings?

  You know me, I never stick to schedule. They're boring as shit. How do you approach the product marketing challenge? Because you at Loom have the product like growth side where end users love it in companies, but actually someone else pays for it. And so there's a problem of agency between buyer and consumer. How do you approach that today as a sales leader?

• 7:27Speaker 02

  It requires that you have an authentic curiosity to learn from your users. And how do you train and teach your sales force to take that discovery, take those learnings, and package them up both from the anecdotes and the stories that you're learning from the individual users that are finding value? And then the more broad ROI that or impact that the business is going to be experiencing if they're making the investment at scale. So I've used this term from my Quip days, and it was definitely parlaying that Dropbox learning to what are we doing at Quip? And I refer to our early sales team as workflow therapists. Lay on the couch, tell me all your problems, like, let's understand, like, there has to be an innate reason of why has someone individually gone and signed up for your product and inserted it into their day?

• 8:11Speaker 02

  And how do you find the trend lines between those? How do you share those stories and make them applicable, but also consumable? Because you are learning the right vernacular that works for that company, that team, that department. Then how do you get your sellers really attuned at the different plays that you would have associated with that, depending on who you're talking to within the organization?

• 8:30Harry Stebbings?

  So if the sellers are that therapist, asking those questions, my challenge is, what questions discover the truth? Because a lot actually don't and. Customers and early users kind of say what you want to hear. They feel pressured. What questions do you like to ask to really determine and discover the truth without leading the witness, so to speak?

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Well, I think there has to be a first principles of why were you compelled to go through and sign up? And just see what they say. Leave it super open and then also I think the next piece is particularly when we are using data effectively as our sales team, which means that we're trying to talk to heavily engaged users. I'd like to ask what's preventing you from sharing or forcing other folks at the company from using this? Or they may flip it on their head and be like, no, I'm singing Loom's praises. It's all over the place. Like we get, we have to go and make sure everyone's using this. And then we go, okay, let's ask why are you needing to do that? Versus the product being able to expand in its own way. And so I think for us, we start to learn the cultural idiosyncrasies that are really important for how do you change behavior?

• 9:30Speaker 02

  That informs then what are we doing in a proactive state as sellers to bring the right cross-functional groups into the fold? The right use cases that we want to be anchoring on for a pilot group? What are the success metrics that we want to set up as a part of this sales process that we're using? And so for us, it's really how do you ask open-ended questions around why someone has taken personal initiative? And then how do you go through that fact-finding mission to figure out how does that play into the existing culture and workflow of the team?

• 9:57Harry Stebbings?

  Now, you mentioned Loom having a sales team for the past two years, but actually having customers and paying customers for a lot longer. I'm always quite perturbed by this one, which is like, before we actually, let's just take a step back. In terms of the sales playbook, what does a sales playbook mean to you? Because people have many different definitions.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  I don't love playbook as a term because it sounds rigid. And from what I just described to you around the types of conversations that are moving the needle for us and are leading to like the true great understanding of our customers. I hear playbook and it's let me follow the steps, let me regurgitate these things, let me ask this line of questioning. And that doesn't actually incorporate the most important part of it, which is listening and then making moves along the way based on that. To flip it around, I refer to it as frameworks. I apply this when I'm hiring a new leader on the team, a new rep on the team is bring the frameworks that have worked effectively for you in the past. Playbooks are not going to be a one-to-one, hey, I can Rip and replace and take over there. So when I think about frameworks for us and what that means for our organization,

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Loom, Dropbox, Quip, I've had both the blessing and the challenge of horizontal tools that can be used by almost anybody at an organization, which is an amazing opportunity from a TAM perspective and a challenging opportunity from a where do we start and why? And I think for us, when I look at frameworks, it's whether it be vertical specific, whether it be persona specific, how do we start to layer in applicable stories? I think storytelling is such a key part to sales. So how do we have relevant stories that are customer facing teams, regardless of their quota carrying, like are they adept at being able to tell the meaningful stories from our user base, our customer base, et cetera? And then also, how do we then look at the different types of plays?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  If you want to put it that way, or frameworks for, are you going to have more of a bottoms up, adoption driven play? Are we going to have a more tops down initiative because we're actually aligned with power? And we're attached to a more strategic undergoing at the company and Loom is going to be a vector or in service of that strategy? And those are the sorts of things that we need to capture in terms of what are the elements of health for those pursuits? And what are the right frameworks to be applying and the right stories to be inserting based on that?

• 12:06Harry Stebbings?

  So me and Jenya had different views here. I believe that founders should be the ones to create the first frameworks, to create the first stories and to really be the creators of them. He said that actually they shouldn't be and that it should be a sales leader actually that is brought in. Should it be the founder who creates the first frameworks or is it okay for it to be brought in by a sales leader?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Well, I'd kind of call bullshit on the founder can't create it. Like if you raised money, you started a company and you have the capital to hire it, you're in sales. So you've already created that sales pitch. The question is, is it actually credible for folks that you are hiring that are not you, Mr. Or Mrs. Founder? Can they deliver that message credibly? So I think the iteration then becomes what are the nuggets? And what are the key value areas that have been uncovered during early customer wins or even losses? And then what are the ways that we want to package up those things for an early customer facing? Person to be able to run with. I think the ability for folks early days. So if you're a founder that's just hiring the first set of folks on your team,

• 13:08Speaker 02

  allowing them access to you pitching in some way, shape or form. That can be you capturing it or you having some sort of log of the conversations that you're doing or actually taking the time to allow them to write shotgun on their onboarding experience. Because there's so much that can be taken away from what is going to probably be perceived as table stakes, things that you've been saying for years that are actually going to be a huge unlock and highly applicable and inserted into the frameworks that that customer facing person is going to be able to reuse. And so don't discount the special sauce that you've practiced.

• 13:40Harry Stebbings?

  What do you recommend there? I'm the founder. I've got us to kind of 30 K MRR. Should I create like word docs with the script that I use, the core value props that I say to the different people within orgs? Should I record my calls on certain sales loft or whatever we're using? How can I document it for you coming in? So you can go, oh, I've got a treasure trove of potentials.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  I don't think it needs to be overly detailed. The lift here, there's like an 80 20 value approach here, absolutely of who are the folks that you've engaged with where there's just been an unlock? They get it. I think in most companies, you find that there's going to be certain customers that just they got it from day one. They're off to the races. They're ripping. Analyze those. Don't take them for granted. Why? What were the dynamics of the role the person was in, phase of company that they're in? What are the key identifiers that might be that map for where someone might want to spend their time proactively or pattern match what health is going to look like? And then how do you unpack ultimately your product experience, your onboarding experience, all the things that you would want? So like, how do you have the highest likelihood that someone is going to end up in that state, which you consider to be really healthy?

• 14:44Speaker 02

  So those usually are bullet points. I think the recording of calls is actually where the most value can be had. And only because it's so rare in my experience that the founders are actually recording that and then making it available to the rest of the employee base because it's really personal. And it feels intrusive at times and it feels like, oh my gosh, like, did I even do it right? Who am I to say that I'm the expert on XYZ thing? But again, it's the, that objection handle, that positioning, that extra question that founder asked along the way, which you've built the muscle memory for by getting your company to the place that it's in, because you have been in sales the entire time. You just may not actually unlock and think that that is something that can be used by someone other than you.

• 15:26Harry Stebbings?

  I'd be so good at this. I've got quite used to recording myself. There we go. I should be a startup founder. I know, it's a terrible idea. No, I, I do have to ask, in terms of like that first hire that we bring in though, and we said, kind of, should the founder be the one to create the framework? Whatever, in terms of that, like, in terms of the person that we bring in, do you think we should bring in younger reps who are more plastic, kind of jack of all trades? Or should we be bringing more seasoned heads of sales to then build a team beneath them?

• 15:54Speaker 02

  In my view, the answer is C, neither potentially. And the reason for that, it depends on what you want. Are you at a place where, let's say that you're a pretty niche product and you have a pretty solid value prop and it's very clear who the buyer persona is? And it's like, we need folks to be triaging an inbound queue and possibly outbounding into this narrow thing that we're building in service of. You make the argument, let's get some junior resources in and let's start seeing if you can scale to the next level, if you're just having more customer conversations. More times than not, in my experience, and I draw on both Loom as well as Quip in this case, there's a blend, early days of, are your first customer interactions support? More customer success oriented because you're helping them figure out the value that's there?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Is it actually sales? Like, do they know what they're getting with your solution? So with these early hires, and I still repeat this, and my team, if they listen at some point, they're gonna go, oh man, there he is saying it again. But I really view that our team is on the hook for two things, error and insights. And the insights are almost as important, if not more important, the earlier you are on your go-to-market journey. Because that helps inform, where do you want to resource and how do you want to go to market more broadly? How do you build conviction in the right ways? So I've personally seen that having folks that are more excited around just customer learning. Feedback, interactions and first principles like inquisitive thinking and then being able to take that in a structured way and translate it to the CEO,

• 17:21Speaker 02

  but also to your product lead. If there's a marketing person that's there, how do you get them on the same page? There's so much more value, in my opinion, on how do you get the cross-functional company bought into the voice of the customer? And that may not be a quota-carrying rep that can deliver that if that's the most important thing to you early on.

• 17:40Harry Stebbings?

  Do you have a conflict running a PLG and enterprise motion in one? Because you could have certain people in the organization saying, hey, we need the product team focused on referrals within app, within whatever, natural kind of growth tactics, much more product-led initiatives. And then you could have the enterprise rep saying, hey, we need R back, we need SSO, we need enterprise requirements. Do you have that conflict, given the dual running of both?

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Conflict sounds like it's like this. The reality is, and I'm probably well-skewed based on the organizations that I've selected into along the way, but the product leads everything. The more compelling thing in my view, if you're going up into the enterprise, having depth of engagement, having there be masses of folks that are gravitating towards your product, regardless of even talking to someone, and that being the statement of users speaking with their actions, that's going to fast-track you through so many more enterprise conversations because of the conviction-armed value to the organization in the early days versus the unlock of R back, or whatever it may be. You have to figure out a path then on, okay, if that is the balancing act and you want to be doing both,

• 18:51Speaker 02

  at what threshold as a product, marketing and sales organization are you all aligned on? That it becomes statistically significant, if we want to put it that way. It's probably not even that regimented. At what threshold does it tip us into this is something that we need to be resourcing and roadmapping in a more proactive way than what we've been doing in terms of core product innovation to date? That is always going to be a trade-off that has to be made if you're in a resource-constrained environment. But ultimately, it's also about like, what is your ability to go and capture a market? And I think for us, as we're really trying to carve out a category here at Loom in terms of the way that people are interacting with video at work, we feel that there's a huge opportunity for us to grab market share

• 19:33Speaker 02

  by going into the enterprise and influencing larger organizations and the way that they're working. Not only because we're trying to force our way in, but we're in a fortunate and privileged position that they're coming to us looking for that. So I think as we look at and as we can stack up, here are the common themes and threads, that voice of the customer that our sales organization and insights that we're delivering back. How does that build conviction and therefore the roadmap that we want to build towards of what unlocks the right type of customer? And how do we have agreement then as an organization on what is the ICP that we're willing to go after? And the reason the ICP thing, in my opinion, is important is you're going to get a lot of inbound interest, particularly from very large enterprises, many of whom are in regulated industries,

• 20:13Speaker 02

  that you are not even remotely close to equipping and servicing in a realistic way. And so I think having very defined filters of what you will or won't entertain as a collective company, as a guiding and north star for you is important, in my opinion.

• 20:28Harry Stebbings?

  I have so many questions. I think my first question is like you mentioned kind of being lucky to have many inbound. And of course, that's a fantastic privilege and great, but you also can't rely on it because at some point in the future, you don't know when, but at some point it tails off and you have to have outbound. How do you think about the dual running of inbound and outbound? And what are some big challenges you find companies face when layering on outbound when they've relied on inbound for a long time?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  It's a completely different motion for your organization. And that may sound very obvious, but let's unpack what that means. You have assumed intent on the inbound side. You have assumed value, especially if you've got users that are engaging, utilizing your product at work already. Versus outbound, like no clue, maybe, maybe they're using us. Maybe there's some indications of where you want to be outbounding. But typically you are moving from team level, end user and department level engagement being the driver of the why you, why now approach. As you're moving into outbound, you as an organization need to be much more opinionated on here's why you should have an initiative that's aligned. To what we're doing. Here's the impact that you should be experiencing and we would be delivering for you. And then how do we make sure that ultimately we're delivering on that as a team?

• 21:40Speaker 02

  And so I think from an outbound motion perspective, we've already started to do this at Loom of like, we're in the early innings of experimenting and building that motion, not because we need it, because we know that someday we're going to need it and it's a muscle that you have to build over time. My experience, that's a 12 to 18 month runway of actually getting the learnings, getting the motion and getting the fruit of that labor, so to speak. And so going back to your original question of should you do both or are they at odds? They're not at odds, but you have to treat them as completely different go to market motions as you're resourcing it from a PMM positioning perspective, from a rep accountability and activity perspective, and then ultimately the way that you are structuring the evaluations that come from it.

• 22:21Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask, what's the biggest challenge of building an outbound team?

• 22:24Speaker 02

  I'd say the early days of like knowing it is a muscle that you're building. I put it as like you decide to work out for the first time and it feels like you're going to the gym and it sucks. You're sore, but you're not seeing any gains and you're not seeing any impact. And you have this moment of like, what the F am I doing? This sucks and I'm not seeing any benefit. Why do it? Maintaining the perspective on how do we push our teams? How do we push the collective company to continue making the investment? And how do you start to set more incremental milestones for what success looks like? And I think if you're focused just on output metrics around what have we closed? These deal cycles are going to be longer. Engagement that you expect earlier on is going to take longer to build. The perspective on what is actually resonating versus not is also something that you have to be taking inventory on.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  And so I think cherishing repeatability and cherishing the pipeline as you bring it in, to put it in sales terms of like, what are the early indications of success? And that doesn't necessarily mean that revenues even hit the books yet, but how do you actually embrace the learning process? And I think that if you can begin to figure out what gets people to say yes to talking to you when they've never heard of your company before and how do you make that repeatable? That is a huge next step to great, then how do we start to figure out the right ways to engage, structure and run these deal cycles? Just because they're going to be very different than the conversion funnel that you have already established on the inbound side.

• 23:43Harry Stebbings?

  We're going to get on to those kind of crucial lessons and insights on what causes conversion. I do want to just touch on the hiring process itself because you're an angel in my hypothetical company. Congratulations. I'm thrilled to have you, Sam.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Thrilled to be here.

• 23:54Harry Stebbings?

  Amazing. I have no idea how to hire a sales rep or sales leader. In terms of structuring the hiring process itself, I know it sounds stupid and kind of naive of me, but literally, how do I do it on an interview by interview basis? Who do I bring in? At what point? What data do I give them? Do I do case studies? I don't know. Help.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And to be clear, are we talking about first hires that you're making?

• 24:18Harry Stebbings?

  First hires that I'm making, thirty to fifty K MRR. It's working, but I need to bring in the first salespeople.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  I think as a founder, I would be taking inventory of what is the reason why you need to hire sales capacity today? Is it, I don't have strong inclination around deal structure and approach, and we're having a bunch of inbound interest, but we're actually not sure the right way and the right cadence to be setting up our sales process. So do we want people that have a lot of structure? I think, and this is going to candidate profile, we'll get into the actual way to tease these things out. On the flip side, it could be, I actually just have a lot of conviction that if we increase the number of conversations that we're having, we already have strong conversion, like we have like a strong ICP we're going after. We need people that can kind of triage and just handle the inbound that's coming to them. That's going to be a different set of skills. So I think looking at the founder's side of what are you actually trying to remove from your plate with these hires?

• 25:09Speaker 02

  And what is the complementary, hopefully, approach of where are you getting energy in customer conversations or not? And how do you make sure that you're hiring the right profile of folks that is going to scale and compound the effect of their being there versus just being potentially carbon copies of what you've already been doing? So when we get into the actual interview phase, like based on those criteria, that's where I start to structure in different ways of what are the early filters that you want to be setting up? And so for some, it may be much more process oriented. In my opinion personally, spiking for product enthusiasm, curiosity and structured learnings. Because the learnings and the insights are going to be so important. And so asking questions and talking about what may have been not related to sales, but tell me about subject matters that you've been.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Interested in tell me about group projects that you've been working on and the way in which you've rallied other folks around it. Tell me about times where you've had to convince people to do something that maybe they didn't think they wanted to do at first. And so we asked very open ended questions there. I think when we're getting into the actual like, what is the way that we want to measure this talent? Big believer that whoever the hiring manager is, whether that is the CEO, whether that's going to be another member. Like, there should be a very much like 50 50 split in terms of time of getting to know one another and feeling out the two way street. That is like, do you seem to be a fit and have the right filters that we are looking for in terms of your experience? But also on the flip side, like, there's a decent amount of selling in the early days of why should this candidate take a risk on you and your opportunity? Like, what are you on and what is your mission and what are your values?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  As you get through that and you find at least your early conviction of like, huh, I think we may have a mutual benefit here. That's where we start moving into a more cross functional group. And I think I'm a big believer early days that what you absolutely don't want is for your customer facing teams, your sales team, whatever it is that you're hiring to be on an island in any way, shape or form. And I think that that's something that can be challenging, particularly with companies that are leading with an early team that is much more product engineering and design focused. This new function being inserted into the company can be something jarring at times, if not handled properly.

• 27:10Harry Stebbings?

  How do we prevent that? Do we bring in the CPO and designers and devs into the hiring processes like a hiring panel? How do we integrate them to make it a more kind of holistic process?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  I personally, when I'm putting together panels, look for who culturally has some of the most deep cross functional relationships and the highest level of credibility across those folks. And how do I make sure that those people are inserted into our hiring panel? The biggest thing that I'm looking for there is not necessarily this person is going to be filtering and looking at sales competencies for this potential candidate. Does this person pass the test on being able to build credibility with folks across the company? And is this person going to be able to build those relationships? And I, I go back to my early days, Armando Man is who hired me at Dropbox back in the day. He's been on an amazing journey since then at a few companies.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Most recently, Hoppin, and he sat us down early days at the lunch table, literally, because we're all in the office. He's like, the absolute best thing that you can do for your career is to sit at lunch every day with anyone other than the sales team. Go and make relationships with the product organization, the engineers, the folks that are here that are building. Because guess what? They're all the ones that are about to go start a company in the next five to 10 years. And you being able to have those relationships, but also the context of what it takes to build in the early days is actually the most important thing that you can learn and build a muscle on. And I think that if you take that ethos of really a filter that I'm looking for for early customer facing teams is can you sit at that virtual or physical lunch table and be the only person potentially that's actually in a customer facing role?

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Are you going to have the EQ, the product enthusiasm and the mission alignment that everyone else does? That's going to create those bonds and have a healthy culture at that point.

• 28:57Harry Stebbings?

  I love that in terms of sitting at the lunch table, going from like super nice and personal and human to another thing that I was intrigued that Genia said, he said, I don't like case studies. I don't like them. Don't find them useful. How do I actually test your ability to have pipeline coverage? To construct pipe, to really be rational about pipe conversions? Do you like case studies and should I use them as a founder in this process?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  I don't like case studies because I think they're overly structured. What I do like is the opportunity for someone to show you how they work or how they think. Depending on the phase or role that you're hiring for, if you've got someone that is going to be working heavily cross-functionally, I would include a working session with that person. And in this situation, you would give them a prompt. You could argue it's a case study, but ideally it's something that's much more of a, here's a problem that we're trying to tackle. We are not going to give you a ton of information, but we want you to guide a discussion between us of like, how do we start to problem solve and work through this together? That would be one.

• 29:56Harry Stebbings?

  What would be a type of problem? Just so I have an idea.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Sure. You could have it be customer objections. We'll use Loom as an example. Someone is consistently telling us, or our customers are consistently telling us they're not comfortable recording, whatever, making something up. And we want to figure out the right way to think about our go to market. But also our product and our marketing initiatives to go and tackle this common objection. Like, how would you think about giving us that feedback? So it gives them an opportunity of like to set the table and deliver the feedback. But then also, how do you structure a discussion around the go forward path? Now, we're getting into something that's would be applicable for someone that's really, really generalist as opposed to sales specific.

• 30:33Harry Stebbings?

  Do you give them time to do the work? Do you say, hey, go away?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:37Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, so it's not in real time.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Not in real time. And I think that that is something where if you're going to give someone the expectation that they are doing something on the fly, you owe it to them to have that be in a subject matter area that they have deep expertise in context. Their existing role, existing company, whatever it may be. Many founders and many companies I see, they want to use the learning opportunity for things that they are navigating as an organization. So it's value add in terms of the conversation regardless of outcome. You can learn something in every conversation. But many times trying to ask somebody to solve your company's problems on the fly in real time is broadly not setting anybody up for success. We do something called Take Homes and it sits in between the initial hiring manager screen and the onsite panel.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  We give folks, if you're in a sales leadership role, for example, that we're hiring for, it will probably be a couple of prompts between how do you think about building culture, building rapport and investing in your team? Let's talk about your leadership philosophies. And of course, we're dog fooding hard and so people are submitting looms for that to us. But then also we get into more tactical sales management principles approach and how they would think about structuring the accountability for their team. And the flip side of it of how do you start to move us from early days squishy in terms of process to how do you help us transition and work towards not necessarily a full machine, but definitely more of a funnel view of the business? By giving those prompts ahead of time and allowing people to do it, but also time boxing. Like we say, you got five minutes tops to deliver this information.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  We don't want this to be dissertation that you're going forth and bringing back to us. We found that that pairing gives us insight into what's this person look like in terms of polish? When they've got time on their side to prepare. But also frankly, with video as a medium, we just start to see a lot around the communication style, skills, et cetera. And the entire panel, assuming that they pass, is able to consume those looms prior to them joining for the live sessions throughout that interview day. And so you're short circuiting some of the relationship building and context building, which I think is beneficial for our panel as well.

• 32:35Harry Stebbings?

  What are the biggest mistakes you see founders make in the hiring process?

• 32:39Speaker 02

  One, not having clarity on what they want early on, like what is the actual goal of this role? And in having conversations early on, I'll see it span everything from, we need someone to help us figure out our entire go-to-market approach, because this is going to be the first, air quotes, go-to-market hire. Or on the flip side, it's we want this person to come in and build an outbound motion, because we got the product thing already taken care of. And by having either too wide of an aperture or too narrow, you can't have it all. So I think that you just need to have really clear conviction around what it is that you're hiring for, why? And then how do you structure both the questions that you are going to be asking individually, the filters with which you're looking at these candidates through? And then ultimately, the focus areas, if you have a cross-functional panel,

• 33:24Speaker 02

  of what are the key things that you want to be dividing and conquering on in each conversation? So it doesn't just end up being a repetition of the conversation before.

• 33:31Harry Stebbings?

  Do you have any advice to me on sales comp? It's a bit of a kind of opaque topic, I find. For a first-time founder, any advice on big mistakes made, often wins that can happen? What would you say?

• 33:41Speaker 02

  I think variable compensation is an excellent lever at the right time. And I don't think the right time is going to be your first couple of hires, because you got no data. And if we're looking statistically at someone having between 50 and 30% of their compensation tied to these outcomes, and you have no idea what's possible or repeatable from an outcome perspective, that feels misaligned. I think a way that you can continue to bring folks in that have upside of some kind is, how do you structure different incentives that aren't just revenue-focused? Earlier on in the process, as you're continuing to build that conviction of what the targets should be. For me at Quip, early days, we had compensation models that were very loose in terms of you were mostly base salary, but you would share an upside

• 34:26Speaker 02

  as you would go and perform at certain levels. But your base was enough that you should be able to live in San Francisco and be a productive member of this company. And then even early days here at Loom, it was a combination of both revenue, but also the input metrics that we would expect folks to do, just because we were trying to build those customer learnings early on. And so I'd say- Don't lean too heavily into standard variable compensation just for the sake of it. I'd say give yourself the time to actually build an informed data opinion on why those targets should be, what they should be and why you would expect someone to ramp at the rate that they're ramping.

• 34:59Harry Stebbings?

  So now we've hired this first person, we've gone through that process, they've accepted our offer. Fantastic. It's the first sales hires and I'm busy founder, I'm fundraising as well. I rock up for first day. How do I do onboarding? What does that look like?

• 35:12Speaker 02

  So in my opinion, there's a sliding scale of how do you narrow eventually towards someone's core role and the core competencies of those roles. Most important thing is you are hiring someone in its most simple form, in my opinion, to be an ambassador and extension of your product and your brand. And for them to do that effectively, they have to understand what is the community that I've just joined? What do we stand for? We're using Loom. Like what does it mean to be a Loom mate? Which is what we refer to ourselves as. And I think that there's a huge part of how do you bring people in to understand the structure of the company, the mission, the values? How do you lead with a bunch of cross-functional conversations so they can get to know Loom mates? In our case, from across all sorts of different functions. A fast follow to that is product evangelism requires product knowledge.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  So how do we go deep on enabling and teaching folks to be power users? And have a deep understanding of not only what are we delivering from a product perspective? But almost more importantly, if we're going back to that workflow therapist analogy earlier on, what's your perspective on the workplace today? What are we seeing in terms of trends? What are we seeing in terms of experiences that we are trying to lead people towards? And I think in our case, in the industry that we're in, there's actually a pretty healthy blending right now of people understand as it relates to Loom of sure, I can, I can click on the icon of the desktop and hit record and get a three, two, one countdown. I'm going. When should I do it? Why should I do it? And how does that actually layer into modern work? How does that actually get us to a place where we're talking more about employee empowerment,

• 36:39Speaker 02

  flexibility, the cultural as well as efficiency benefits that you're going to get by embodying that as an organization? And so for us, we have to equip our sellers with how do we talk about the industry? How do we talk about why Loom fits into the trends that are happening today? And then ultimately, how does our product ultimately get into being in service of those things over time?

• 36:57Harry Stebbings?

  After this indoctrination.

• 37:00Harry Stebbings?

  Do we do a test? Do we say, all right, Sam, you've had two weeks on the Coaching Academy. Sell me this pen.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely. There's something ceremonial about getting through the fire, so to speak, of validating your readiness to talk to customers in front of your peers and in front of a cross-functional group. I also just think there is a huge benefit early and upfront of building a culture of coaching and being open to feedback and cherishing that feedback. We have all of our folks within the first, they usually have their first week, which is going to be much more of the company and cross-functional. As we get into their second, third and fourth weeks, very much going to be more tactical around, what are we doing in terms of the motion with the sales team today? We accelerate that. So usually by the end of the second week that someone's here, they are doing a full demonstration as well as running a mock discovery.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  We solicit feedback from not only the folks that they are aligned to in terms of their onboarding buddies, but also a broader swath of the teams that can get feedback as well.

• 37:57Harry Stebbings?

  When do I need to bring Mueller in the cooler? When do I need to be delivering some value? Because it's great, we've had this first month, but actually sometimes the rubber hits the road. How long do we give people before they start delivering?

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Broadly, I look at this from a segment perspective because you're going to have different deal cycles and different expectations. Our commercial business, for example, like our SMB reps are in the roughly 45-day window for average deal time, which means if you're getting your first customer conversations, there's going to be a bit of an inefficiency early and upfront as you're building that early pipeline, so to speak. You're roughly in a 2X deal cycle timeframe of like, within the first 90 days, you should start to see deal flow. Realistically, within the first 60 days, you should have some later-stage pipeline that's sitting at pricing negotiation or aligning to the right buyer personas internally. I think for the enterprise, you're going to have a lot more extended time that's there, which means that the expectation is going to be much more on the leading indicators.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Like, how much progress are we making in terms of multi-threading into your accounts? What early commitments are we getting in terms of pipeline engagement? Structure and criteria there. What is our path to you starting to put yourself in a place from a coverage ratio perspective that aligns to the ramp schedule that we've given you? Just because those deals statistically are going to be more in The six month to nine month range and you're probably not going to be having significant ARR that's retired until that point.

• 39:16Harry Stebbings?

  What are some early signs that actually we hired a dud sadly and they're not very good? What are some of those early signs?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  You can see it from a cross functional engagement perspective. Those that are coming in that are great hires are asking really high quality questions and they're not just asking them of their team. They're going on a fricking fact finding mission cross functionally and they're building relationships to go and do it. And so I'd say those that have come in early and have had sustained success, just absolutely passionate about learning as much as they can around not only the what, but the why, the why behind the way that we're architecting and building our product or the way that we're positioning and go to marketing. I'd say very, very early on, you can see the enthusiasm as well as the quality of the questions that are being asked. You're seeing that those that are treating their opportunities to be learning in a much more passive

• 40:06Speaker 02

  or just not pursuing them at all, those are major red flags early on.

• 40:09Harry Stebbings?

  Is that cross functional engagement much, much harder in a remote world where if I'm a new sales rep, I'm a little bit younger than you, I'm a little bit intimidated to go and ping some people in product just on email when I haven't met them, but actually saying hi in the lift and then going and hanging out with them at lunch. It's much easier when we're in that office. What can leaders do to create that engagement in a world where it has to be manufactured more?

• 40:33Speaker 02

  We literally give people a list of cross functional folks that should be on their, we refer to as a listening tour. And we also give prompts of, not for each person by function, but just what are the types of themes or types of questions that you should feel emboldened to ask that person? An example of that would be like, hey, if you're talking to someone on the product side, tell me about the way that you're approaching milestones and roadmapping. How do we have inputs into those? What are the ways that you're being influenced by the customer? And how can I think about packaging up my learnings in the most effective way so it can be consumed while by you? Those sorts of things. And we make sure that that spans OG, early engineering talent, folks that are going to be within kind of the broader go to market

• 41:15Speaker 02

  between our PMM team, our operations team, different parts of the sales organization. I think. A center of absolute unbelievable treasure trove of knowledge sits within a support organization. If you have one, just because they're hearing both the blemishes as well as the praises of the product on a daily basis. And typically at a much higher volume than any other customer facing team. So how do we go and point these folks to the right wealth of knowledge?

• 41:40Harry Stebbings?

  I loved OJ Adesana, who I'm not sure if you worked with at your time at Dropbox.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yep.

• 41:45Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah. So he puts all new reps in customer support as one of their first weeks. It's like you are there for the whole week. I love that. One thing that I find, a final one before we do a quick fire, but I find deal reviews fascinating. When you think about deal reviews, how often do you do them? Who sets the agenda? Who comes to the deal review? Can you just walk me through it? Cause I've never done them before, but we're scaling and we need to now.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  So I'd say iterative for us as we've scaled the team, just because we've moved from being, there being four sellers. A year and a half ago, we can all just sit in the proverbial Zoom room and break it down together to broader cross-functional teams. And so we put the cadence is being driven by the segment leaders. So whether it be our commercial sales leader, our enterprise sales leader. I think the person that we want driving the conversation is absolutely the deal team that was involved. The cadence with which we're doing it at this point is bi-weekly. The thing that we are really anchoring on for us is it's both deal review, but also post-mortem. And I think that we have to, celebrate is probably too far of a term, but it's like, we're all going to be making mistakes.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  And we're not going to bat a thousand. You look at average close rates and healthy ones being in the 30 something percent range. You're not closing them all. So how do you reverse engineer why? And what are the potential things that we could have done differently? Or what are the things that ultimately did or did not end up resonating in a way that we want to learn from as a group? I think the amazing part that I've seen with our team at Loom is that who is sitting on that invite? It is not segment specific. And so we invite sellers, CSMs, whoever it may be are free to attend. We also use it as an opportunity to invite members of the product organization as well. Particularly those that are building in service of our move up market, just so they can get more nuance and context and have. Ability to ask questions as well.

• 43:31Harry Stebbings?

  So there's a consistent reason why we're not converting customers. It's because it wasn't urgent for the customer and they pushed it back a quarter. We both know that one.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Always.

• 43:40Harry Stebbings?

  What's your answer as my advisor? Cause this has happened a couple of times now, Sam. What do I do?

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Ultimately, you are having to go through the process when you're doing that postmortem on why wasn't it a priority? And you could argue that that is ultimately what sales is, is how do you take something that is not a priority? And find a path to making it one.

• 44:00Harry Stebbings?

  Can you do that though in real time? Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but when you have a customer who's like, hey, it's not a priority. They're not off lead, like they might convert next quarter. And you don't want to seem too pushy, too transactional and lose that humanistic side of the relationship. So can you even get that data back in the pre-close process?

• 44:18Speaker 02

  You're not going to get it every single time. It's honestly going to depend on the relationship that you've built. I think our most successful reps are coming back in that situation where they're saying this thing pushed. And I had the opportunity and I asked why, and I got a real answer on why. And that could be, there are other things that are in the pipeline that took precedent. And here's the reasons that those took place. You get insights into what are the either decision-making, political, whatever the dynamics are in terms of how things are prioritized at that company. And you get better insight into how do we position and how do we work with that champion to move us to the top? Or higher up on the list that it is prioritized. But that is really where you have to anchor in the relationships that you're building. So you can have the candidate conversations from there.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  I'd say if you're seeing reps on your team that are consistently getting the, we're pushing. And when you ask, well, why and how would we avoid it? And they haven't been able to go back and have those conversations. Again, not saying you're going to be able to have it every single time. But if you are building deep relationships that are rooted in understanding your customer, understanding what is valuable to them and understanding their priorities. You should have a higher hit rate on that, in my opinion.

• 45:23Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah. And that's when you say you're fired.

• 45:27Harry Stebbings?

  Don't Jackie.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  I don't want to work for you, Harry, let me tell you.

• 45:31Harry Stebbings?

  Why didn't you accept my offer? Final one for you, and it's just us on the line. So it's all cool. What's the number one reason why enterprises don't buy Loom this quarter?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Well, I think broadly we're. We're in a macro environment where everyone is just looking at spend across the board. If we take that off the table, I think we at Loom are still in the very early innings of showing up as a enterprise initiative. And when I say that specifically, it's we have so much momentum and goodness that's happening across the organic growth that we're seeing, the early customer base that we have. And this is always going to be that chasm crossing that we're going through. So I'd say for us today, it's how do we actually educate on this category? And then how do we lead folks to understanding the value that they're going to be receiving, particularly in the enterprise? And I think for us, we're still pushing on what is that like for us in the tens of thousand of employee organizations?

• 46:24Speaker 02

  And how do we package up the goodness that we're seeing in smaller companies and bring it to them?

• 46:28Harry Stebbings?

  I know, I'm totally with you. I find also just the category creation play when you move into enterprise and the stodginess of mindsets. Yeah, challenging, but if anyone can do it, Sam, it is you.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Heck, yes.

• 46:40Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah. So are you ready for a quick fire? I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 46:44Harry Stebbings?

  All right, let's do what sales tactics have not changed over the last five years?

• 46:49Speaker 02

  The genuine and authentic curiosity in understanding your customers' needs is the consistent, like how does that play into your discovery? How does that play into your approach? If you're going deep and being extremely focused on adding value to your customer, that is the key.

• 47:03Harry Stebbings?

  What sales tactics have died to death?

• 47:05Speaker 02

  I think with all the automation that's taking place, particularly on the mostly email side, I think there's just an exhaustion around email today, trying to find ways to cut through that noise in different, more compelling ways.

• 47:16Harry Stebbings?

  Whenever I get email, it's like a notification function for like unsubscribe. You know what I mean?

• 47:21Speaker 02

  It's a tough one.

• 47:21Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah. Tell me, what would you say is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring sales and revenue teams?

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Not being intentional into the integration with the rest of the company. How do we make this be an unlock and a superpower and learning engine for the company as opposed to it ending up being kind of an orphaned function?

• 47:38Harry Stebbings?

  Flip it, baby. We've got a new sales leader and they're joining a company. What advice would you give them on coming in?

• 47:44Speaker 02

  It's all about relationship building cross-functionally because if you're delivering feedback or if there's things that you have conviction that you've learned that you want to be doing from a go-to-market perspective, but it's falling on deaf ears or you don't have the credibility to deliver that in the right way, you have to go deep on those relationships. At Loom, my partnership with Anik, who is our VP of Product, and us being on the same page around what are we learning? How are we approaching? How are we thinking about the trade-offs? How do we be in the boat together on going and building a business across our different funnels and go-to-market motions? That unlocks so much efficiency and speed in what we're doing. So as you're taking that approach, then your job is to also learn how to be a translator coming in. And this is probably a longer answer than the quickfire that we're saying,

• 48:26Speaker 02

  but I wholeheartedly believe that a huge part of success early days is being able to take what you're seeing from the customer and find the right ways to articulate it to the different parties within the company.

• 48:36Harry Stebbings?

  Other than cross-functional relationships, what is the one thing you'd like to change most about sales today?

• 48:41Speaker 02

  I think we're still fighting the potential misalignment between what I just said is the most important thing at the top of this rapid fire, which is like your genuine curiosity and customer understanding and value that you're driving for them. And the way in which sales can be perceived, particularly on the coin-op side of things of just here for the paycheck. So how do we do away with the latter? And how do we be there be a celebration of what we're learning and uncovering and the value that we're driving? So it's a perception on sales.

• 49:07Harry Stebbings?

  What one company sales strategy have you been most impressed by recently?

• 49:11Speaker 02

  It's close to home. My wife Kate, who you've chatted with in the past, is over at Notion. And I think that Notion has done an amazing job of unlocking and unleashing the power of their community as a way to compound not only their growing user base, but the ecosystem that they're building in terms of monetization. I think community is a huge part of what they're doing and something I'm taking notes on.

• 49:31Harry Stebbings?

  Let's be honest, you were sleeping on the sofa if you didn't say that.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  Thousand percent.

• 49:36Harry Stebbings?

  Man, thank you so much for joining me. I absolutely love our chats and you're so brilliant to chat to, so huge thank you.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Harry, as always, appreciate it. So great to see you.

• 49:47Harry Stebbings?

  What a treasure trove of knowledge there. Sam really is one of the best. I can't thank him enough for being there for me over the years, for being a great friend. I so love doing this episode today. And before we leave you today, harmonic.ai can be a total game changer for your company and your sales team specifically for two core reasons. First, lead gen. Brex, Ramp, Vouch, Carter and many others are using Harmonic's filters to define their ICP and build feeds of companies that are matching their criteria, whether it be newly formed, recently funded, key hires made, etc. And then second qualification, companies with a PLG motion like Notion, Superhuman are using Harmonic's integrations to enrich new leads as they come in. This allows them to shorten their forms and quickly

• 50:30Harry Stebbings?

  dedicate sales resources to qualified leads. As I said, this gives your sales team superpowers they've never had before. You must check them out at harmonic.ai. And now you've heard me talk a lot about product-led sales on my podcast and on LinkedIn, and that's because it's the future of how modern software companies go to market. I first heard about it from a company called Endgame, and they're creating the product-led sales category with a new product you should know about. I was too late to get in on their seed round, admittedly, and now they're doing really well and I'm slightly kicking myself. Endgame helps companies like Figma, Launch Darkly, Calendly and Loom find the right accounts to focus on based on product signals, identify the users within those accounts that they should target and take action to drive more revenue faster. They're in beta right now, but if you use

• 51:14Harry Stebbings?

  the code HARRY, the team has promised to give you an exclusive demo of the product. Check out endgame.io/demo to see what they are building. And finally, speaking of core infrastructure for your sales teams, Salesloft is the leading sales engagement platform, helping sales teams drive more revenue with the modern revenue workspace. It's the one place sales teams can go to prospect, manage active deals and get the insights they need to coach seller performance, forecast with accuracy and find out what steps to take to close more deals. Some of the world's leading companies like IBM, Shopify and Stripe all love a new Salesloft and so can you. It's the new way to sell. Find out more at salesloft.com. I so appreciate your support as always and I cannot wait to bring you an incredible episode with Carl Samani at MultiCoin on Friday.