This Dad Went Looking For Answers. He Found A National Problem

This episode is an update on the case of Elly Warren, the young Australian woman who died in Mozambique. Since Elly’s death, her father Paul has refused to accept silence. With few answers from authorities, he has spent years chasing the truth across borders, and that pursuit has become his book, Hunting Elly’s Killer. https://www.booktopia.com.au/hunting-elly-s-killer-paul-warren/book/9781761636486.html?srsltid=AU7gw4U2smKOa_yNF8JLrg4I8g9BnUVpHqpvizvh0Re3eV2I8XqSbh1j Paul also keeps his website ellywarren.net https://www.ellywarren.net/ updated with everything to do with the case. In this episode, we’re flies on the wall for a conversation between Paul and Charlie Bezzina. They talk about where the case stands now and the frustrations Elly’s family has faced in dealing with police and politicians. Paul explains how he took the case all the way to Parliament, and he shares why staying tenacious is the only way families like his can get answers. Listen to our episode with Paul 'For 10 Years Paul Has Been Hunting His Daughter's Killer' here. https://www.mamamia.com.au/podcasts/true-crime-conversations/elly-warren-mozambique-death/ GET IN TOUCH Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @truecrimeconversations https://www.instagram.com/truecrimeconversations/?hl=en Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960 MAMAMIA OFFERS: Subscribe here https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe/?utm_source=shownotes&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=truecrime&utm_content=black-friday&code=BLACK30 for 30% off your annual Mamamia subscription for Black Friday with code BLACK30. Code applied at the checkout. Offer ends November 30. Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes. CREDITS Host & Executive Producer: Gemma Bath Guests: Paul Warren Produced by Ella Maitland Video Editor: Lisa Chen Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi there, Gemma here, dropping into your ears with a bit of a follow-up to one of the cases we covered earlier this year, the murder of Melbourne woman Ellie Warren in Mozambique. We interviewed her dad, Paul, who has dedicated the last 10 years to trying to find her killer, unhappy with the lack of investigation being done by both the African and Australian police. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, I highly recommend doing that first to get some context, because Paul was kind enough to share with us footage from his book launch, where he had a conversation with one of Australia's most respected former homicide detectives, Charlie Bezzina, who has been helping him with his daughter's case since 2018.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Listening to these two men talk is fascinating. A dedicated, heartbroken dad and a police veteran, both determined to not only solve Ellie's case, but make it easier for Australian families to navigate investigations overseas in the future. They've helped to uncover so much evidence, so many holes, so many missed opportunities, and their knowledge and experience in dealing with the intricacies of Ellie's case is a lesson for all of us, because this could happen to any of us. These two men have come up with a solution, a robust one, that'll actually help Australian families that will inevitably have to keep dealing with this scenario. They just need the authorities to listen.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  I'll let them explain. Please enjoy this intimate conversation between Paul and Charlie.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  I just happened to be reading the paper this particular day and saw a story that Paul had done, and clearly knowing the angst and the frustrations he would have been going through, so through the journalist, I touched base with Paul and the recent history.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  It was near his wife.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. So I basically loaded the gun, and Paul fired it. I said, "Look, when you go overseas..." It was a bit of secret agent stuff, he was covertly recording the chief of police over in Mozambique.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  That's why I didn't want to go back to that.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  That's exactly... But I can understand, and I was hoping the goodness, I said, "I don't know, Smilly, go over with him." Because I'll shit myself. So ultimately, you know, the things that Paul has gone through, he'd bring me up, and his zealousness in relation to it, and his drive, and even through Ellie's mum and the family, again, associated with it. We met quite a number of years ago, at a certain chapter, where we had dinner together in Birdwood.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Birdwood, yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so ultimately, that's the relationships you build, because you know, and I've seen from victims, they're pretty much they're cut loose in relation to the whole support agency. Once the police have done their job and gone with the damage control, and then say, "Well, okay, we've done what we've done, but he did do it well enough. What have you learnt from it?" They're not going to tell us what they've learnt from it, or what they're going to do.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  But we've... I've got a proposal we've put together.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  I sent you, and we've worked on it, and it's actually on the website. It's actually a very good proposal that I think the government should take up, and it actually puts the coroner at the centre of the operation. I think the coroner should take... should move in and take more responsibility when a death happens overseas, and the coroner can actually use the resources of the homicide detectives, because a lot of people don't realise that the coroner's assistant is already employed by the Victorian police, in the UK.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. So ultimately, just for the uninitiated, the state coroner here, if an Australian citizen from this state dies overseas, he has, he or she has the power to hold an inquest into their death, or coronial hearing into their death of cause, and causation, etc., and all the circumstances in relation to it. So one of the proposals that Paul has put together, we've put together... Okay, we'll put together. It happened with Bali, the Bali bombing, and we know the result of that, where the state homicide squad were called upon, along with our resources, that went over to Bali, along with some federal police officers, in relation to assisting them. Now, that would...

• 4:32Speaker 01

  only because that was so high-profile. But any death of a loved one overseas is high-profile. We've had a number of them. I was spoken to quite significantly a number of years ago. We had a lovely young lady, and I forget her name, in Dubrovnik. She was found murdered over a cliff, and I met with the family in relation to that, and they were about to... or I was going to get involved with that, but which way it went, but they then went on a different angle on that. So what we're saying, putting together, is that when we do have a Victorian citizen in particular, who will deal with an Australian citizen, in representation for the family, now the coroner represents the family, the homicide squad investigators here are agents

• 5:16Speaker 01

  of the coroner. We are the ones that put the coronial brief together, along with other police officers, if it's a suicide or any other unnatural death. But in doing that, and it's quite simple, that the federal police, because the federal police have agencies, or agents, as they call themselves, in different locations throughout the world, and they become their liaisons in relation to it. So the very basic things that we're proposing is saying, "Well, why can't the coroner then direct Victorian police to say, 'Can you now send a homicide investigator over as an advisor, not as an investigator, as an advisor, because for medleys of getting involved, you need to be invited by the host country to be involved, to get the investigation

• 6:01Speaker 01

  file'?" And that's the whole difficulty about it. And initially, when Ellie's death was reported, they were protecting their tourism, etc. So it ultimately became, what was it, an overdose, or she was a drunken tourist, put the victim at blame, and that was the whole issue. But when you start, you know, the crime scene was significantly adulterated, and once you start losing the crime scene, and when Paul picked up about the t-shirt being ripped, and then the injuries to the face, and even the speckles of sand on her buttocks in relation to that, and one of my first, from my experience, had said to Paul, "Well, do we know where Ellie's clothes are?" Well, they've gone into the ether in relation to it.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  So there wasn't a process. Had someone of my experience, or someone in people, with the federal, because federal police are not homicide investigators. You know, they're not. So someone like me over there can say, "Right, through the local police, once you've got..."

• 7:02Speaker 02

  But you can't go over and take over the investigation. What I was basically saying is that we can send them over to do a fact-finding mission, so the coroner gets this first-hand information, gets a report from that pilot study, and then what happens then is the coroner's in a better position to be able to make decisions on the case. Now, if the coroner decides that, yes, just say this is happening in a third world country like it has been, and the coroner decides that they haven't got the resources to adequately do a proper investigation, and our resources through DNA testing and everything, because

• 7:44Speaker 02

  we're more advanced here in Australia, because the federal police have got one of the top forensic labs in Melbourne, haven't they? And, you know, to use those facilities for a third world country would be an advantage. So if the coroner got that report, and then he could say that the attorney general here, "Look, I think that it's... there is reason here for us to get further involved with a mutual assistance request." So then the coroner can say to the attorney general, "Let's send the request to the other country and see what happens." Now, if they say no, that's it, that's all we can do. But if they say, "Yeah, look, we... there are areas that you can help us," then that mutual assistance request will come into effect.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Then the AFP get involved, because they're the ones that are legally lead agency, aren't they? So a homicide detective can then, I think, assist, can't they?

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, as an advisory capacity, because, you know, it's the basic stuff to support where we are today. The fact that was written off basically by the Mozambique government, the investigators, they didn't want that, and then it culminated by that stage with lost significant evidence of Ellie, her clothing, forensically. She had two postmortems in Africa, and then her remains were brought back here, and she had a third postmortem. But as we know, from my experience, and certainly from one of our esteemed guests, Byron Collins, who is a pathologist in his highest regard...

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Having a third post-mortem, you've already got, her body's been adulterated with evidence, you've lost all that. And even down to the track, of all the sand down the throat. Paul went over there and we were able to establish through Paul that the sand in Ellie's airways was different from the sand where she was found deceased. So clearly the body had been moved.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  And the surface too was firm.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  And that's when I went over to Mozambique on my trip, I saw that and it was rocky and I thought, well, in two years it could change. But when I told my translator, Tony, when I told him that Ellie's lungs were packed full of sand from what Dr Clepper told me over the phone, because I rang her, army days after autopsy, he said that that's not possible, she couldn't do that at that location.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  And they're trying to write off that she inhaled the sand, or we could conclusively say that's impossible through a medical report in relation to that. And Paul became a forensic examiner, a forensic collector, zero and over, and got samples of sand and brought back to Australia. Because I said, everything we need to do, Paul, needs to be evidence-based, and that's what exactly he's done. And taking the individuals, and certainly not bringing back and coming forward and being critical and something, he's on the phone and saying, Paul, you can't say that. And I think the incrimination of the lawyers that went through his book.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  I reckon there's a handful, there's plenty of evidence that suggests that.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  That's right. Everything he says has got to be evidence-based. And at the end of the day, and Ty said, he said, but when you get the scientific evidence, and being embalmed into, you know.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  In the equation.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  In the equation, and the radiologist, there is them, black and white. She did inhale the sand. It's impossible. And that's what the locals were trying to say in relation to, oh, another drunken tourist. And they actually attacked Ellie's character, which is absolutely a nonsense relation to it. You know, the politics of policing will tell you, every investigation is done at the same level. Once anyone loses, we investigate the death of Carl Williams, or Jason Moran, or Graham

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Kinnear at the same level, because any loss of life, we put that aside. But the more high-profile the case, and the only reason this has become high-profile is because of Paul leaving a high-profile, and he's been a thorn in the side of the federal police, but that's why I say they've gone into damage control. And the hardest thing is to say, Paul, we're sorry, we did muck it up, but you can't go back. But all we go, okay, you've done that, we can't then replace it. But for the future, when another loved one dies overseas, if they come back and say, as a result of Ellie's case, this is what we have changed, because we find the shortcomings, we don't want to be there again. But they haven't even done that.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Well, do you think they should apologise? I think they should.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so. They've let us down, you, the family, and the community of Victoria, because we could be, any one of us in this room could be in the same position. So, you know, it's a matter of, you know, our kids want to travel, but, you know, they might get the federal warnings, the defect warnings, don't go to this country, but don't think for one minute you're going to get the support, significant support from our government. We're more too politically correct to say, well, we don't want to make waves. These major crimes don't go to waste. There is no time limit, there is no statute of limitations on serious and durable offences of murder, armed robbery, rape, et cetera, et cetera. They stay in forever and a day. And that's why we keep it alive in relation to it. So, when it comes to the hundreds of years that's been passed, and we've got difficulty

• 13:26Speaker 01

  thereafter, so it becomes very frustrating in relation to that. But all you can say to the family is, this is what we believed, but we just fell short and blamed the system of being able to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. And as we know, it's got to be 12 out of 12, it has to be unanimous. But it's hard.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  And that brings you sort of back to the time where I was at a situation where I was pretty depressed, and I had come to a standstill in the case, and I remember ringing you and you told me that, Paul, what we do when we feel we've hit a brick wall is, we go back over the evidence and we look at it all again, and hopefully we can find that bit of evidence that's a game changer. I'll never forget you saying that to me, that needle in the haystack, you know.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  And I found it, yeah, yeah, with the ripped part shirt, because looking, when I discovered the clear photo from my first trip, Charlie, I couldn't look at that photo. I was devastated to see my daughter lying down. And it's just heart-wrenching, really, it was just, I just can't explain it, the dirty feet, you know, it's just terrible. And I couldn't look at it at all. And I didn't see the ripped apart top because I didn't know it.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  No, no, no, well, it's, yeah, it's just a terrible photo. It is clear version, there was a blurred version, and that was the only version the coroner got from the A F B, and they never got, never passed a clear photo. And then I, after speaking with you, I decided to go over the evidence, I needed to look at that photo properly. And I did. And that's when I discovered, and I rang you, and then I rang the coroner, et cetera. Because the coroner's court said there was no, no physical damage, you know, that was, that was a police, that was care tailor for Victorian police.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, coroner's assistant.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  And someone to make out that they've made a mistake.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Brand, Brad, because it's a secret of Ellie, hence even from different aspects, expert witnesses. You know, I had one with a particular pathologist who, with his label, who found a cease, and he said, well, Charlie, it's either an accident, or it's an assault, he had symmetrical fractures to the face when she passed. And, but I had, you go where the evidence takes you, as you did, Paul. Yeah, go where the evidence takes you, as this particular case, and the evidence took me that she fell off a fence and then she bled out and then went to the side of a house and died. But I had to go, again, but these experts will put a foot in each can, because they have a particular reputation.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  And I was able to stay strong with my investigation and believe in what I found evidence was, and said, this is an accident, went to a coronal hearing, and the coroner then sided on me and said, yep, I accept the evidence that it was an accident, it was misadventure, it was not a homicide, or foul play because of the symmetrical fractures to the skull, to the face area, and I could account for that, I accounted for everything. And even though she was found on the blind side of the house, I was able to account for that, because when we had the entomologist come in there, we found her house grease, and that accounted for the last thing that I had. So you go where the evidence takes you, and with the finding of the facts, you can't

• 17:08Speaker 01

  knock that out, because you can say, there's the photograph of the sand, there's the radiology report.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so, and you, you gave me a new lease of life, and then I was on another tangent, I was in another area.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  You created the vibe.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's when you put me in contact with the coroner, you know, and that sort of set me off with getting a second opinion on some of the medical evidence. And Dr Collins also submitted another review report for the inquest, which was very positive and contained a lot of really good information, and I very appreciate that.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  So, that's why you've got to be tenacious and dogmatic in getting what you want. If you're not happy with a particular investigation, eventually, when they come to me, I said, don't bother writing to the Chair Commissioner, go to your local Member of Parliament, they represent you, the constituents. I am not happy with this, you're my representation, I want you to be mentioned in the Parliament, and clearly Ellie's been mentioned in Parliament.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Oh, I tried, though. Maybe they wiped their hands of it. The local lady here, what's her name?

• 18:27Speaker 01

  No idea.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  In Labor? The MP here, Jodie, yeah, no, she didn't want to hit him.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Just turned her another way, yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  But that's when you think about the media.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  You told me the next thing to do is to go to your minister, and I went to her, and she went to the Attorney General, and the Attorney General said he couldn't do anything about it. So then she just wiped it, she just said, well, we can't do anything.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  And that's a frustration that's found my head, but that's what I'm saying.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  But then, again, tenacious and dogmatic about it all, and just, that's probably why we get along so well.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Thank you to Paul and Charlie for allowing us to be flies on the wall for this conversation. You can find a link to Paul's book, Hunting Ellie's Killer, and his website in our show notes. Thanks so much for listening, I'll be back later this week with another True Crime Conversation.