Pod Insights True Crime Conversations Part 1: We Spoke To A Victim And Her Perpetrator. This Is Alena's Story. About this episode Listen to Part 2 with *Kai here. https://www.mamamia.com.au/podcasts/true-crime-conversations/kai-the-man-behind-the-crime-part-2
In 2000, Alena Turley was held at knifepoint by a man she had previously been in a relationship with. The terrifying incident left her with PTSD and lasting trauma. Alena was able to disarm him that night, but what might have happened if she hadn’t?
In these two special episodes of True Crime Conversations, we’re exploring something rarely heard in true crime storytelling. With Alena’s blessing, we sit down with her to talk about the relationship, the warning signs, and the traumatic night that changed her life.
We’ve also invited the person responsible for the crime, who we’ll refer to by the pseudonym *Kai, to answer the questions we rarely get the chance to ask the person on the other side of the crime.
This isn’t about justification or excuses. It’s about accountability, examining what happened, and trying to better understand the complex realities behind an act of violence.
LINKS
Alena Turley is a Somatic Therapist. Find out more about her work here https://www.alenaturley.com/.
If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636.
Contact Full Stop Australia https://fullstop.org.au/ on 1800 385 578, 7 days, 24 hours.
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Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960
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CREDITS
Guest: Alena Turley https://www.instagram.com/alenaturley/
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533976/Host: Gemma Bath https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemmabath/?originalSubdomain=au
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman https://www.linkedin.com/in/tahli-blackman-205a891b7/?originalSubdomain=au
Group Executive Producer: Ilaria Brophy
Video Editor: Julian Rosario
Audio Designer: Tegan Salder
Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.
Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript 11,286 words · 2 speakers
0:01 Speaker 00 It's a December night in 2000 and Elena is peering through the peephole of her front door in Sydney. He's here again. Ever since she broke up with Kai, he's been turning up at her home, begging to be let in, to chat, to be given a second chance.
0:20 Speaker 00 She can tell he's been drinking, but there's something else: his eyes. They look different. She opens the door a crack and he barges the rest of the way in. For the next few hours, Kai essentially holds her hostage in her own living room. Then, he goes into the kitchen and things take a sinister turn.
0:43 Speaker 00 He returns with a knife.
0:46 Speaker 00 I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. Kai is not his real name. We have protected his identity because in this episode, we have been given a rare opportunity. Not only are you going to hear Elena's story, her version of events from that terrifying night 26 years ago and the devastating impact that followed, but you're also going to hear from Kai. He has agreed to be interviewed, to tell his side of the story, to apologize publicly for what he describes as the worst mistake of his life.
1:27 Speaker 00 Elena and Kai have moved on with their lives, but for the first time in nearly three decades, they're revisiting the domestic violence attack that changed everything. Our podcast is the first time they've revisited the incident that gave her PTSD and him a criminal record. You're going to hear from Kai in part two, so look out for that in our feed. But first, Elena is a wife, a mother of three, an educator, and a somatic therapist. This is her story.
2:07 Speaker 00 Elena, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Why have you decided to share your story today?
2:14 Speaker 01 Oh, great question, Gemma. Thank you for having me. It has been a while since this happened. I've shared it in pieces and bits and bobs before. But it's, it seems timely to talk about how you heal from really big, difficult things that, you know, this took me out for a long time. And now I kind of feel like I'm on the other side of it. And I think that's really, really important to share.
2:42 Speaker 00 Let's go back to the mid to late 90s, early 2000s. Who were you as a person? What were you doing with your life?
2:52 Speaker 01 Well, I was floundering in many ways. I had, you know, been a sort of a student, been to university, started a career in public relations and it had fallen down and I had ended up working in the film industry, which was extremely exciting, but pretty, you know, sporadic work in Sydney. And have been on and off jobs and, you know, struggling to pay rent and and I set into this kind of really exciting phase of my life where I'd met this man in a cafe and I thought he was just amazing. And he said, come away with me, you know, I've got a van. So I gave notice on my apartment and the night before he said, ah, actually, maybe I'm just going to go on my own.
3:32 Speaker 00 Why does that feel like every twenties experience?
3:35 Speaker 01 He was really good looking, okay. Anyway, I, I kind of moved to my mum's house, went to New York for a month on like borrowed money and, and visited my dad who was living there, which was pretty amazing. So I was having a really amazing time, but also didn't really know what was going on or where I was going to land. And the night before I went to New York, I met a guy. And when I got back, we kind of connected and I ended up moving in with him for a while. And it was a pretty interesting time. I was trying to establish myself in my work in film, but also trying to make money in other ways. You know, working in administration or temp contracts of, you know, various things. And so it was sort of precarious,
4:16 Speaker 01 but I was very grateful to have somewhere to live. I moved to Bondi and moved in with a really cool couple of people. One of them was a DJ. And so my life was good and also weird.
4:26 Speaker 00 I, I, once again, I think that's every 20 year old, 20 something year olds life. All my life, back in my twenties. So the guy you met was Kai.
4:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:35 Speaker 00 What attracted you to him? What was he like when you first met him?
4:38 Speaker 01 Very unusual person.
4:39 Speaker 00 Really?
4:40 Speaker 01 Yep, an ex pro athlete and culturally different to me, Pacific Islander. And, you know, a really inspiring human, actually. And someone who seemed to me like a protector, someone who wanted to kind of take care of me and give me safe harbour, which at that point in time was really compelling.
4:59 Speaker 00 So you met him, went away and basically moved straight in with him?
5:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, I didn't have a house, I didn't have anywhere to live. And he was like, we've got a spare room, you know, but it was, it was our shared room. Like, it was just straight in.
5:11 Speaker 00 So it really would have fast-tracked your relationship? Do you remember those early days of the relationship? What was it like?
5:19 Speaker 01 I mean, it was fun. We were kind of making house, but also he worked nights. And he was a doorman. And so it was kind of lonely as well. It was a real mix. I was fairly, I mean, unstable in my life, right? So he'd given me a place to stay. I don't even think I was paying much rent. He was going out to work every night. And there was an expectation that I stayed home and waited for him. You know, there was a little bit of a power dynamic. I think some of that was cultural. I think there was an element of wanting to take care of me and protect me and keep me safe. But it was a definite imbalance. I felt a little kind of on the kept side.
5:57 Speaker 00 Or like in debt to him, almost? And that's not a, kind of a healthy way to kind of live.
6:06 Speaker 01 And when I think about that, that makes sense, doesn't it?
6:09 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:09 Speaker 01 With what comes later. So for example, I would be at home and he'd be going to work. And he'd sort of imply that I shouldn't go out or I should stay home. And at the time, that didn't raise any alarms. I, I was kind of like, oh, isn't that sweet that he wants me to wait for him? I was really naive about that. In hindsight, bit of a red flag.
6:30 Speaker 00 It's almost got a little bit of the coercive control tendencies to it.
6:34 Speaker 01 Which I grew up in a family with, so very familiar to me. Almost, oh, my definition of love, you know, that's what families are like. I didn't even recognise that until much, much later in my life. The nature of coercive control is quite insidious and sneaky, you know. And, and, you know, weirdly, the people even in it don't realise it's happening.
7:00 Speaker 00 Had Kai shared much with you about his life story? Did you know much about him?
7:04 Speaker 01 A little, so in pieces. And I wasn't really aware of the, the breadth and depth of his situation at that time. And he had his own really deep traumas and, and adverse circumstances going on in his family, some loss and, you know, it was quite tragic what happened in his family, but I didn't really know anything about that at the time.
7:29 Speaker 00 How did things start going downhill in your relationship?
7:33 Speaker 01 So I started to cotton on that, you know, he was out most nights. So we were sort of ships in the night. I also started to cotton on that I wasn't getting the full story, you know, that, that he was going through things that he wasn't being completely transparent with me about. And it got to the point where I realised that living with him wasn't really the best idea. So a friend of mine had a spare room in Bondi and I moved there. And it was a really good decision to do that and to move in with my friend who was a very dear friend, who was also going through a breakup, you know. So I started the process of kind of leaving the relationship and saying, this is a really intense relationship. I think you've got some things going on. I think I've got some things going on, so I'm going to move out.
8:17 Speaker 01 Um, let's just keep it really, you know, there was no big drama there. But he didn't really accept the end of the relationship.
8:26 Speaker 00 How did he react?
8:27 Speaker 01 Well, I don't really remember any big fireworks, but I do remember him coming over a lot to my new place, too much. And me saying, you just can't keep coming over here all the time. And he would say, I just want to sleep on your floor and I just, you know, I was his safe spot as well at that time, I think, or one of.
8:46 Speaker 00 When he was coming over, was it ever, were you ever scared of him? Was he ever aggressive?
8:51 Speaker 01 No, I mean, he was physically a very large human. So there was always, um, I guess, awareness of that. And I had always felt quite safe around him. But when he began to unravel a little bit, less so, a little bit less so. Not so much that I didn't feel safe, but more I was concerned. And I could see something was going on and I didn't really exactly know what. And he would, you know, go to the pub and then call me at midnight and say, I need to come and see you. And I'd be like, I don't want you to come over, you know? So we then sort of started in this thing where I was being kind, because he'd been kind to me and taken me in. And, you know, kind of attempted to, to help me out. And so I felt a little bit of an obligation there, which was an interesting kind of situation, right?
9:36 Speaker 01 So then my flatmate would go, why is he coming over all the time? I'd go, well, he's having a hard time and, you know.
9:41 Speaker 00 But it wasn't like you were trying to, oh, like, maybe I'll give him another chance. I'll take, you'd made the decision.
9:46 Speaker 01 Oh, no, the relationship was over.
9:47 Speaker 00 But you were just kind of trying to be.
9:50 Speaker 01 My kindness was my weakness, let's say.
9:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
9:53 Speaker 01 And I was probably a much more of a people-pleasy person then as well. Probably really scared to disappoint people, young woman, highly conditioned, not to say no.
10:02 Speaker 00 Because you were late twenties?
10:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was twenty eight.
10:04 Speaker 00 Yeah. So it's interesting to hear that lead up because the night that we're about to talk about, it was very different to all of these other times.
10:15 Speaker 01 Oh, very, yes.
10:16 Speaker 00 So you heard a knock. Did you know? How did it all start?
10:21 Speaker 01 Uh, so I got a phone call.
10:22 Speaker 00 Right.
10:23 Speaker 01 And he had been at the beach with his friends and family and drinking, I think. And he was ringing me incessantly, saying, I need to come over, I need to come over. And I was saying no. I was at this point where I was like, I've got to say no. So I kept saying no, and then he showed up on my doorstep.
10:43 Speaker 01 And I heard the knock on the door, kinda knew it must be him, cause I didn't have a lot of friends in the area yet, right? I was fairly new to the area. Um, went to the door, my spidey senses were like, do not open the door.
10:55 Speaker 00 Already?
10:56 Speaker 01 Yep, I just had a feeling. And then, I don't know why, something overrode it. And I kinda looked through the little peep hole, saw it was him, and he looked really distressed, you know? So I felt for him and opened the door.
11:11 Speaker 00 And you hadn't at that stage had any reason to fear this man?
11:14 Speaker 01 No, not really, no. I mean, he was a doorman, like I knew he had a side to him. No, not at all, not at all.
11:22 Speaker 00 So you opened the door, you let him in, what did he do? What was his first move?
11:25 Speaker 01 He kinda pushed past me. So the moment I opened the door, I saw his face. And I looked in his eyes and I saw someone else. I was like, this is not the guy I know. Instantly knew something was going on that was different to other times that I'd seen him. So he was in a darker place. I think now I would say that was a psychotic episode.
11:46 Speaker 01 But at the time, I just looked at him and thought, oh my gosh, like who is this guy? This is not the guy I know. He pushed past me, walked straight in. I started saying, you've got to leave, you can't come in here, I told you. And followed him down the hallway into the living room. And then it gets a bit fuzzy at this point, to be honest. There's a few things I remember. I remember he wouldn't let me leave, so I would try to leave and he would block me. And this guy you could not push past, he was not that kinda guy. Um, so, and I didn't wanna get into an altercation as well, so I wasn't being very physically pushy with him, right? I didn't wanna encourage that sort of physicality. So I was talking, I was trying to talk my way out of it. I was like, I'm just gonna make a phone call, don't worry, I'm just gonna make a phone call. Um, and I was gonna call the police, and he knew.
12:31 Speaker 01 And so he, um, this is when it got a little bit more hairy. I reached for the phone and he pushed me and I fell backwards over the couch. Luckily, kind of knew how to fall because I've got some training and, and I fell backwards and kinda flipped. And that was actually my only injury, it was the, the wrist that got sort of pulled on the coffee table upside down, doing a backward arch, like trying to save myself.
12:54 Speaker 00 Cause you knew martial arts at this point?
12:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, I wasn't training actively, but I had done for five years, you know, in an earlier time, a few years prior, yeah.
13:02 Speaker 00 Was he talking to you at this point? Was he, what did he want?
13:05 Speaker 01 I don't know. I was trying to ascertain that.
13:08 Speaker 00 Right.
13:09 Speaker 01 And I don't really remember a lot of what he said because I was calculating, you know, how am I going to save myself? I could not tell you how long we were in that room. I don't know. And I was trying to raise my voice sometimes to let people around know, like to let tenants in other flats and things know that I was in trouble. Like you have to leave and things like that. Like, why are you keeping me here? I was saying things loudly to kind of alert people in other apartments. I think he was, maybe there was some yelling. Yeah, I don't really remember.
13:36 Speaker 00 So at this point.
13:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:38 Speaker 00 Was there fear?
13:39 Speaker 01 Yeah. Oh, yeah. At that point, I was like, I don't really know how I'm going to get out of this. And I also didn't understand, like, where does this go? Like, what happens next? This is a bit scary. So there was a lot of uncertainty. There was a lot of also just shock at the situation because he'd not been like this before. And he clearly wasn't himself. So I was, I was scared and confused.
14:03 Speaker 01 And calculating.
14:04 Speaker 00 Yes.
14:05 Speaker 01 And trying to work out how to get out of it.
14:06 Speaker 00 You say that you flipped your way out after being pushed. It did escalate from there. And he somehow made his way to the kitchen.
14:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:16 Speaker 00 What happened then?
14:17 Speaker 01 So I still don't really understand why I didn't just run when he went to the kitchen. I think I was probably a bit frozen at that point. There was probably a part of me that started to get to the point of like, okay, I don't know what to do now. And I think I got a little bit frozen at that point. I don't really remember exactly what happened there. I know he got a knife in the kitchen.
14:37 Speaker 01 It was big, was like one of those global massive, the biggest one. And he just stood between me in the hallway, in the door, and held it out in front of him. And I don't remember what he was saying, or I don't really remember much else, except, oh, fuck, like, this is a whole different level now. And I'm really in danger. You know, before that, he was an angry man and I was a little bit stuck. But at that moment, something different had come into the picture, something far more terrifying. And you could see he had terror in his face as well. Like, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing or what I'm going to do. You know, there was a real confusion on his face as well.
15:19 Speaker 00 After the break, Elena tells us how she disarmed Kai to get out of the dangerous situation.
15:27 Speaker 00 You know the drill. You pick the couch, pay the deposit, then wait 12 weeks praying it matches the living room. Let's skip that. Mamma Mia is giving one lucky subscriber a $5,000 voucher for B2C furniture to spend on pieces that are in stock and ready to ship right now. High-end style, zero weight. To enter, head to mamma mia dot com dot au forward slash subscribe. You'll unlock all our subscriber-only podcasts, articles, and our fitness app, Move. Already subscribed? You're already in the running. Offer ends October 31st. Ts and Cs apply.
16:03 Speaker 00 So he's standing there, holding a knife.
16:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:06 Speaker 00 Kind of staring at you.
16:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:09 Speaker 00 How did you get your way out of that?
16:11 Speaker 01 So fortunately, because I had lived in King's Cross as a young lady, walking home on my own, I was aware that the world is not the safest place for young women walking the streets of the city. And I had done some martial arts and I'd really loved it and I'd done it for five years. And in the martial arts that I trained, you do learn knife defence, you learn to disarm people with knives, you learn a little bit of technique. So I knew that I had something that I could do. I was a little bit scared of doing that because then it's quite unpredictable. Like you lunge at somebody, if they want to, they can engage in something. But the martial arts that I had learned, it's a defensive martial arts.
16:54 Speaker 01 It's not really about escalation or fighting, it's about defence. So that was fortunate, very fortunate, potentially life-saving.
17:02 Speaker 00 But it means you have to get into his space.
17:04 Speaker 01 Well, I was in his space. He was pretty close.
17:06 Speaker 00 Okay.
17:07 Speaker 01 Already. So again, I'm still a little bit, I don't really understand how I managed to do this, but I reached towards his wrist, which is kind of one way that you can get a knife out of somebody's hand. But this man, his wrist is like three times the size of mine. So I kind of knew that wouldn't be effective, but it was like, I have to do something. So what was interesting about it on reflection was that it turned the tables.
17:35 Speaker 00 So it shocked him?
17:37 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
17:37 Speaker 00 Right, because he wasn't expecting
17:39 Speaker 01 Hundred percent.
17:39 Speaker 00 You to come at him.
17:40 Speaker 01 No, not at all. Nobody comes at him. He's huge, you know.
17:44 Speaker 00 So you grabbed his wrist and
17:45 Speaker 01 Well, I didn't grab it. You you sort of do a like an X and sort of it's a technique. And it's just a way of moving it away without hurting yourself with the knife. So it wasn't a grab. It was kind of like a block.
17:58 Speaker 00 Okay.
17:58 Speaker 01 An intentional block in a way.
18:00 Speaker 00 Do you think it saved your life?
18:01 Speaker 01 Hundred percent. Yeah, I do, because I don't think he was him. And I think he was just escalating.
18:08 Speaker 00 Hmm.
18:08 Speaker 01 So I don't know. I mean, I don't know. You can never know, right? How do you know? But maybe.
18:13 Speaker 00 Once you'd done that block and he was obviously taken
18:17 Speaker 01 He was shocked.
18:18 Speaker 00 He was shocked. Is that when you ran?
18:19 Speaker 01 I ran.
18:20 Speaker 00 Right.
18:21 Speaker 01 I ran out the front door.
18:23 Speaker 00 And your yelling had alerted neighbours?
18:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I ran down. I was on the top floor. I ran down about three or four floors, down a flight of stairs, pretty, pretty quickly.
18:31 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
18:33 Speaker 01 As I was getting down to the lobby, the the door of an apartment opened and a woman said, come in here.
18:40 Speaker 00 So she could hear you from all the way?
18:41 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
18:42 Speaker 00 Wow.
18:42 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, also, I was, I'm, I may have been pushed around a bit more than I remember.
18:47 Speaker 00 Hmm.
18:47 Speaker 01 So they would have been banging, like when I got pushed, they would have been banging around. So, yeah, it was really interesting. She invited me into her apartment. She had a baby in her arms.
18:58 Speaker 00 Hmm.
18:59 Speaker 01 It was a nurse, a courageous nurse, I would say, in that moment.
19:05 Speaker 01 Um, she said, go into the bedroom. And then her husband started flipping out and getting angry at her for taking me in. Because he was terrified.
19:13 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, they don't know who this man is, where he is.
19:15 Speaker 01 And wanted to protect his family. I understand that. So she and he were having an argument and she was like, be quiet, you know? I'm hiding in the bedroom going, I can't believe I'm in a house and they're having an argument now. Ultimately, I mean, I'm laughing about it. It's it wasn't funny, obviously, but it was kind of absurd. You know, there was a lot of absurd moments, actually. When you look back, it's like, I can't believe this is my story.
19:37 Speaker 00 Hmm.
19:38 Speaker 01 There's a lot of disbelief still. And so the police eventually came. And then I do remember, and this is the bit that like, if you were making a TV drama series and you show the end before the beginning,
19:50 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
19:50 Speaker 01 This is the bit you would show. It's me crouching by the wheel of a police car on the street. It's a Tuesday night, it's a dark moon, there's seven police cars and they're putting on their gear.
20:05 Speaker 00 Their tactical gear.
20:05 Speaker 01 Cause he was armed, so they have to put on all the, so there's like seven police cars.
20:12 Speaker 00 Wow.
20:13 Speaker 01 And a lot of movement and they said, just sit there, you know, so I'm crouching. I'm like, this is so ridiculous. I mean, I've just, I'm shaking and, you know, in a mess. And they said, just stay there, you know, to, to just put me somewhere, I guess, to hide me. So I was literally crouching on the street and sort of watching people like walk around trying to work out what was going on. And then he was in the window, there's a sunroom and he was in the window upstairs with the knife.
20:39 Speaker 00 You could see?
20:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, they were trying to negotiate with him.
20:43 Speaker 01 It was pretty bizarre.
20:44 Speaker 00 How did they end up bringing him into custody?
20:48 Speaker 01 Well, I don't really know that story.
20:49 Speaker 00 Yeah.
20:50 Speaker 01 That's a question for him, I guess, if he remembers, you know, it would be really interesting to read that in a way.
20:55 Speaker 00 But if they had placed you at the car and all left you there, does that mean you?
21:00 Speaker 01 I guess they didn't all leave me. There's usually someone coordinating, I guess.
21:03 Speaker 00 Yeah.
21:04 Speaker 01 They then took me to the police station for statements and my beautiful flatmate came with me and we were there till two in the morning and yeah.
21:12 Speaker 00 Do you remember that time in the police station and giving statements?
21:16 Speaker 01 I, I remember this kind of in, it's like Polaroids.
21:19 Speaker 00 Yeah.
21:19 Speaker 01 You know, it's like, I don't remember it in a, in a fluid sequence.
21:24 Speaker 00 Mm hmm. Memory does strange things, doesn't it? Especially when there's trauma involved.
21:28 Speaker 01 A hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. These are my memories. This is my experience. And, you know, I, I still get some of those postcards flashing up, you know, because I still do, I do martial arts again now. I had a 20 year break with children and sorting myself out. And now I'm a second degree black belt. So when you train, you know, you do, you train with knives. And if I'm on the floor of the, you know, on the mats and I'm training, I'm highly sensitive to the instructor's, you know, sense of safety, how he holds that space or she holds that space. Sometimes you get, you know, occasionally someone who's not aware of my situation or my history.
22:09 Speaker 01 Um, and they can be a little insensitive, you know, and, and I often just have to sit down and kind of. You know, breathe through it, or sometimes just stop training. You know, I have to take care of myself. I have a different sensitivity to that kind of training now.
22:22 Speaker 00 Which is completely fair.
22:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it's also really good that I have that training and I can still do it. You know, that's taken some doing. I have had moments where, and this is a really interesting other conversation, is that movement, martial arts, intense movement, and confronting some of those fears in a way, or bringing those fears with you. I wouldn't say I confront them. I would say I bring them with me onto the mats. And there are times where I fall apart, you know, and the people I train with, fortunately, for the most part, are amazing. And they will say, just keep moving, and I'll spar crying, you know.
22:54 Speaker 00 Really?
22:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:55 Speaker 00 Do you think that retraining after 20 years has, it's brought all of that back for you?
23:01 Speaker 01 Maybe.
23:01 Speaker 00 Brought what back? The emotion. If you're crying while sparring.
23:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know if it brings it back because it's always there, right?
23:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:08 Speaker 01 But maybe it allows me to move through it differently.
23:10 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
23:11 Speaker 01 It gives me the opportunity to move through it, which is something I really believe in. We don't go around, we don't suppress. I mean, we do, but ideally, we find a way to express and move through those deep emotions, those past hurts, those wounds that we carry.
23:28 Speaker 00 When you think back to, once you'd had a chance to catch your breath and you'd done all the police stuff and you were alone again.
23:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:37 Speaker 00 Do you remember how it felt?
23:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:41 Speaker 00 When you tried to, when you were like, what just happened?
23:43 Speaker 01 So the year following was, you know, a year of PTSD. Because when you get attacked in your home particularly, something, you know, there's no comparison between adverse events, right? Every single one is different.
23:57 Speaker 01 But when it's at home, your safe place isn't safe anymore, so you never feel safe. So the PTSD is pretty intense. It's very.
24:07 Speaker 01 Physical, but of course I didn't know I was in PTSD. No one told me that for 11 months.
24:13 Speaker 00 Wow.
24:14 Speaker 01 So my life was an utter bin fire for that year and, and no one knew what to do. God love them, the people around me. I mean, I didn't have a lot of people around me, but, but the people that loved me didn't know what to do. So I isolated and I drank and I tried really hard to stay in employment, which didn't really work. I moved multiple times. I'd get kicked out of where I was living. You know, it was just, it was a nightmare. I was hallucinating.
24:40 Speaker 00 Wow.
24:40 Speaker 01 I mean, it was a really intense experience. I could spend an hour telling you what it's like to have PTSD for me, what that was like. It was very bizarre.
24:47 Speaker 00 So it was, it was very physical, but mental, but psychological. It's like everything in your body was screaming.
24:53 Speaker 01 But not because you're numb, right? So, so the brain protects you from re-traumatizing yourself. So you go into this kind of weird la la land.
25:04 Speaker 00 Hmm.
25:05 Speaker 01 And I literally was hallucinating. I remember driving, well, I was on a bus going past a building site. And you know, when you see those spiky pieces of metal before concrete goes in and they have yellow. I saw a field of daffodils and I was like, I remember this so distinctly because I was shocked that I'd never noticed this beautiful field of flowers on my bus route before.
25:30 Speaker 00 Wow.
25:31 Speaker 01 Like, that's how I know that, you know, you're, it's so beautiful, really, what your brain does to protect you. Just takes you to another place.
25:39 Speaker 00 In that 11 months, had you sought help?
25:42 Speaker 01 I mean, I was in complete denial.
25:44 Speaker 00 Hmm.
25:45 Speaker 01 Okay, um, there was no help to seek, honestly. I mean, it's year 2000.
25:51 Speaker 00 Hmm.
25:52 Speaker 01 I'm a young woman. The police were my only people I could talk to about it. Like, who else do you talk to about it? They're not interested. And, you know, I wasn't going to go to the police station and say, can I have a chat? Um, there was no counselor or female violence person or any of those things. It was none of that. And, um, but I remember a few things. I remember my flatmate, who was just beautiful. One night just said, I can see you're really hurting. I'm just going to lie next to you and just lay next to me on my bed the whole night. And just like held my hand. That was the only person that actually was. And then soon was like, you know, because I was a mess. And so he sort of said, I think you might have to find somewhere else to live. He was going through his own stuff. You know, so I couldn't pay the rent. You know what I mean? It was just awful. It was an awful year.
26:35 Speaker 01 I was clinging to jobs and losing them and yeah.
26:38 Speaker 00 And at the same time, he was going through the court system because he was charged.
26:43 Speaker 01 So there was um an AVO in place, which which was broken, actually. Um at one point, he followed me home one morning. Um and I skillfully led him to a hotel lobby so that I wasn't on my own. And uh and then went to the PlayStation and reported it. And that was really scary.
27:00 Speaker 00 Because that would have been the first time you'd seen him?
27:02 Speaker 01 Probably. Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. Yeah, he was just like, it was five in the morning. I was coming home from a friend's place I'd stayed at. And he was sitting outside a cafe that we used to go to a lot, just sitting there on a milk crate.
27:16 Speaker 01 I probably got drunk. And I was, and it was like two blocks from my house. And so I thought, oh, oh. You know, it's no one around.
27:26 Speaker 01 I just casually walked to a hotel lobby and walked around secretly, like quietly going, help me, help me, please call the police. You know.
27:35 Speaker 01 That was pretty full on.
27:36 Speaker 00 Do you remember, did you, did you go to any of the court proceedings?
27:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, I did. I think they wanted me to. And I don't remember a lot about it. I remember waiting in a room to be called.
27:47 Speaker 01 I remember um going in there and being pretty kind.
27:52 Speaker 00 Really?
27:53 Speaker 01 Yeah. I did understand on some level that what he'd done was not intentional, weirdly.
28:00 Speaker 00 Even though he threatened your life?
28:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, weirdly. Like, I don't know. I'm I'm a deeply compassionate person. I've experienced some things in my life and. So I think I had some compassion for him. I also was very clear that he needed to go to court and he needed to face the consequences. I didn't want to protect him from that and I didn't want to protect him from the natural consequences of what he'd done. So I think I was just quite matter of fact, you know.
28:31 Speaker 01 I was honest without, yeah.
28:35 Speaker 00 He was convicted for what he did to you.
28:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:37 Speaker 00 Got a criminal record.
28:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:39 Speaker 00 Were you able to move on a bit after the, cause what was court like for you? What was dealing with all the police and all of those systems? What was that like?
28:50 Speaker 01 I don't remember much. I don't remember much. I think there was a woman next to me and I think it was fairly brief. They just pulled me in, got me to say something and I left. Like there wasn't, they didn't put me through the whole thing, which is, which is great.
29:04 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:04 Speaker 01 Right? Um, and that's why I actually didn't even know he was convicted.
29:08 Speaker 00 Didn't you?
29:09 Speaker 01 Until recently, yeah, we spoke recently when I said, I'm doing this podcast about you. Let's have a conversation and, and we spoke about what happened after this event.
29:19 Speaker 00 So you didn't even know what had happened?
29:22 Speaker 01 Nope, not really. Oh, well, I hadn't remembered.
29:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:24 Speaker 01 Let's put it like that.
29:26 Speaker 00 Well, you had your own stuff going on.
29:27 Speaker 01 It wasn't my key focus, what was going on for him, that's for sure.
29:30 Speaker 00 No.
29:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was a complete mess. It wasn't, it wasn't until I think 11 or 12 months later, I went to a G P. And I still remember her ma, her name, actually. Um, it was on Oxford Street. I remember it very clearly. And she listened to my story and she said, you've got PTSD. Do you know what that is? So I'm pretty sure from what you've told me, even now I get chills because no one had named it.
29:54 Speaker 00 Hmm.
29:56 Speaker 01 This is the bit where I cry.
29:58 Speaker 00 Was it a turning point for you?
30:01 Speaker 01 Well, I had been like, I had become like anorexic. People would stare at me when I walked down the road. Like I honestly, I felt like I wasn't really worth anything. I felt like my, not really I wasn't worth anything, but there was no point eating. That's how it felt.
30:23 Speaker 01 Like, what was the point? I just felt so lost, so deeply lost. And pretty unsupported. I'm sure there was people that were trying to support me, but it wasn't getting to me. And it was a really hard time. And I felt very alone and vulnerable. And being a sort of single young woman experiencing trauma without the right support. You know, in a community of people that know you as well, like, it's kind of visible. And seeing, you know, people would see me, his family was in that area. I remember one of his brothers saying something really nasty to me when I walked past him on the street. I felt very exposed and kind of blamed, actually. Because he was like someone who was generally a great guy.
31:05 Speaker 01 So there was this kind of inference that I was somehow at fault, right?
31:12 Speaker 01 How gross is that?
31:13 Speaker 00 It is gross.
31:14 Speaker 01 And so I, being so weak and vulnerable and at my worst moment, I think took some of that on. And that was awful. And so I felt very, very,
31:26 Speaker 01 I don't know, guilty or, or like, like I was a terrible person or had somehow brought upon myself or made a mistake or, you know, not clearly thinking those thoughts, but that was at the heart of it. And that had come from things earlier in my life as well, let's be honest. I had my own stuff that that was activating.
31:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
31:44 Speaker 01 You know, from earlier in my life, early life traumas, family traumas, like other things. And this is what happens. Something happens and all the other traumas light up. So I was in that place, very dark place. And so when this woman said to me, I think you've got PTSD, I was like, oh my gosh, like, there's a name. And somehow that ability to be witnessed and seen in the pain that I was experiencing was absolutely transformative. And she put me on sickness benefits. You know, she gave me some time to just recover, you know, and a little bit of care.
32:25 Speaker 00 I can imagine that's only the start.
32:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:31 Speaker 00 What did that healing journey look like?
32:34 Speaker 01 How long have you got there? I continued to make some poor decisions and end up in difficult situations. Not as bad as that. But I had another relationship, which, again, beautiful, amazing man, but we brought our traumas to the table and it was difficult. And so I had a child at thirty one and at four months, he was four months old, we split up and I was a single mother for about seven years. But in that first two years, I was recovering from so many things. And it culminated in a period of homelessness and, you know, I had a caseworker and then ultimately, eventually,
33:16 Speaker 01 that was my kind of ultimate turning point, to be honest, where I went, what is my, like, what has my life become? And he's my beautiful little boy, you know, and he's like eighteen months old and I'm homeless and I'm still in really precarious situations and it's nobody's fault. It's nobody's doing. This is my life. I have to do something. And that was the point where things really, really changed for me and I got some different support and went on this like quest, personal development quest. And that was kind of that seven years, five to seven years, well, I guess it was five years, was my, was my quest. And that was a lot of things.
34:00 Speaker 00 When people hear about really violent things happening like this, I think it's hard when you're, when you've never experienced this, to really understand the long tail it can have.
34:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, oh my gosh, yes.
34:14 Speaker 00 Like, we're talking to you twenty six years after the fact.
34:17 Speaker 01 I'm still feeling it, I'm like, my belly's.
34:20 Speaker 00 And to hear how it kind of affected the next decade and then the decade after that, like, this one traumatic event.
34:31 Speaker 00 The power it has to kind of shatter so many different aspects of your life.
34:36 Speaker 01 It does. And I always see it like it connects the dots. It's sort of to me, I feel like it's like Festoon lights, you know, those string lights? And I feel like this is one of the bigger ones, right? But there's all these other little ones and they connect. There was a series of events that led up to me being too kind to say no to a man that I knew had the potential to hurt me at the door. I can take full responsibility for that. I'm not blaming myself in any way. But I can see how that occurred. I can see, I can connect the dots. And that's, that's where the work for me was to be done.
35:14 Speaker 00 Up next, Elena tells me how she feels about Kai today and about the power of forgiveness.
35:22 Speaker 00 When I first started talking to you.
35:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:26 Speaker 00 I was really surprised to hear the way you spoke about him.
35:32 Speaker 01 Hmm.
35:33 Speaker 00 You weren't, usually when someone does something that violent, it's very like, I, you know, we hate that person. We're not talking about that person. And immediately I saw that you didn't feel like that and that you had had some sporadic contact with this man.
35:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:51 Speaker 00 Can you explain that a bit? Because this man held.
35:54 Speaker 01 Love to explain that.
35:55 Speaker 00 This man held a knife to you.
35:56 Speaker 01 I know.
35:57 Speaker 00 How did you get to that point where you?
35:59 Speaker 01 Can I, can we talk about forgiveness?
36:01 Speaker 00 Yeah.
36:02 Speaker 01 So this is a tricky topic, okay? It's a tricky topic because when something like this happens, that's not when you do the forgiving, okay? And forgiveness is not something you can fake. Like this forgiveness is a process and for me, it's a process that I do actively do for myself. And I do that because when something happens that is traumatic, that wounds you, that leaves a big hurt behind. You know, the, the thing that we talk about now often is trauma's not the thing that happened. It's the wound that it leaves. And the wound that it leaves, in my opinion and my understanding is that.
36:47 Speaker 01 We hold this experience that we had. A part of us stays there and we hold it inside us. And when we do that, we stay connected with it. You know, if you say, point to my chair, I can point to the chair. If you say, point to Gemma, I can point to Gemma. If you say, point to this experience, it doesn't live here. It's not real here. It's only real in here, in my head and heart. And so it only lives as long as I give it that attention and stay connected with it. Now, you don't get to choose, to some degree, how connected you are with an event. Certainly not in the first years after it, or maybe ever.
37:28 Speaker 01 Okay, but for me, I was aware the amount of energy that I was spending on keeping this thing going inside me, on staying connected with that, on keeping a part of me there. So the work that I've done over the years, and it's a lot of years, you know, and very decisive and active, intentional work, and certainly not on my own, with a lot of help.
37:56 Speaker 01 I have come to understand that when we forgive, and actually, the next step of transformation is gratitude. Like, this is a weird one. I'm extremely grateful for these experiences and that's very strange to say out loud, but it's not, if you bear with me. That when I can forgive the situation and the person and myself, I reclaim that energy. That energy comes back to me. I get to use it in the present. It gets to be my vitality. It gets to be my courage, because it takes so much courage to do this process, to forgive something so awful. That's courage and courage is hard. So I want to use that energy for the courage.
38:40 Speaker 01 I want to use that energy for my life now, for my kids now, for this, to be able to tell the story, to be able to work with other people with their past hurts and wounds. So that's my choice. The gratitude step is that now I understand how those things made me who I am. That woman that let him in the door is this woman.
39:06 Speaker 01 And without that woman, I wouldn't be me now.
39:09 Speaker 00 Hmm.
39:10 Speaker 01 So I'm incredibly grateful that this occurred, as weird as that is. And that doesn't come quickly and that doesn't come immediately, maybe ever, and that's okay.
39:20 Speaker 00 Is there a difference between forgiving the experience and forgiving the man, though?
39:25 Speaker 01 I don't know, maybe.
39:27 Speaker 00 Because how do you feel towards him now?
39:29 Speaker 01 Oh, this is a strange question, right? I feel affection towards him and that's because I know him. And he and I have been in in a community, you know, for years and years and years. And we were before we met, that's how we met. And his best friend I've known since I was eighteen. We were in this really cool subculture of like hip hop and music and clubbing and parties in the in the late eighties and early nineties. It was a really special time, it was a really tight knit community. Um, and so I still see that man, my friend, and and occasionally, very occasionally, I still see Kai, not very often. Um, but it was funny, not that long ago, I was at a gig and I was meeting my friend and Kai was there first.
40:10 Speaker 01 And and so we hung out a little bit and it was interesting, but he's said sorry to me. He's said sorry to my whole family.
40:17 Speaker 00 I see.
40:17 Speaker 01 He's told my family if they ever need anything, he's there. He's told me if I ever need anything, he's there. He knows what he did and he is happy to make amends for it. And he's had his own reckoning in his own way, which I can't speak to, obviously, but. But we spoke before this because I I called him to say I was doing this and to let him know about it. And we spoke for the first time about what happened afterwards, you know, and that was an incredible experience as well.
40:44 Speaker 00 And with your blessing, we're going to speak to him.
40:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:46 Speaker 00 But what was it like for you to hear his side?
40:49 Speaker 01 It was fascinating, actually. I didn't know what had ensued for him, you know. I knew, I guess, a little more than originally, the reasons that he had become psychotic that evening. I understood later what had led up to that for him.
41:07 Speaker 01 I don't excuse his behaviour in any way. I don't condone anything that he did, but I forgive it because I need to, because it serves me.
41:21 Speaker 01 Because it allows me freedom. The energy that it gives me to not have to stay there and hold that is worth it. And it's, like I say, it takes a lot of courage. And it has led to me being a much more understanding. Like the breadth and depth of my experience is so much greater for it. And so that's a true gift and I use that in my work now every day.
41:44 Speaker 00 Not all women survive their attackers. Not all women are in relationships that it would be healthy to go back and talk to that person.
41:56 Speaker 01 One hundred percent.
41:57 Speaker 00 And I do think we need to acknowledge that while telling your story. This is a very nuanced and individual situation. But there are so many women out there who are terrified of their attackers.
42:12 Speaker 01 Of course.
42:13 Speaker 00 And they should never engage with them again.
42:16 Speaker 01 There is.
42:17 Speaker 00 And I don't want anyone to listen to this and think, oh.
42:20 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh.
42:21 Speaker 00 I should reach back out.
42:22 Speaker 01 I just want to state really, really clearly that the way that you navigate what happens for you is absolutely yours. No one can tell you what's right. No one can tell you how to do it. It's so personal. You know, I mentioned that I went on a quest. That was my quest. Nobody's will be the same. No two are similar. And this is not me saying this is how you do it. There is no this is how you do it. There's no roadmap. The quest is not mapped. That's part of it, right? And absolutely every single day I will say to anyone who comes in and says, oh, what should I do? Are you safe? That is the question.
43:05 Speaker 00 Number one question.
43:06 Speaker 01 Always. Because if you're not safe, you can't do shit.
43:13 Speaker 01 There's no, there's nothing. Safety is the only prerequisite to anything else. So, safety in your body, in your circumstances, physically, emotionally, is, is underpins the whole story.
43:25 Speaker 00 You now help other people.
43:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:28 Speaker 00 Don't you? You're, tell us what a somatic therapist is firstly.
43:32 Speaker 01 So I answer this question differently every time I do it because every session is different.
43:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
43:36 Speaker 01 I do something called root cause therapy, which is a very specific modality. But I also am a somatic therapist, which essentially means that I do therapy where we go through the body first. So, so I am teaching people, helping people to understand the signals their body is sending them. And I'm helping them to interpret those signals and learn the language of the body. And become more whole as a result, because parts of us, like I said, fragment off. When we have traumas, parts of us stay there. And trauma is a word that is a bit controversial. Let's just say wounds or past hurts, unprocessed emotions, whatever you want to call it. But there's a big link, we know now, there's a lot of research into the way that there's a big link between very real mental, emotional, physiological symptoms.
44:22 Speaker 01 And the way that we have experienced emotion, or experienced our past, or experience our emotions day to day. So, you know, suppression of emotion or the inability to deal with things in our past can become symptoms, very real symptoms.
44:39 Speaker 00 Do you think our current systems are set up to support?
44:46 Speaker 00 People that are experiencing these hurts, these big violent hurts.
44:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:53 Speaker 00 At the hands of other people?
44:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, I've got to say, I'm not an expert on the systems. I'm an unconventional, I'm an alternative, alternative health practitioner. So I can't speak as an expert. I can tell you what I hear.
45:06 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
45:06 Speaker 01 From my clients every day and friends and family.
45:11 Speaker 01 That there's, there appears to be a gap. And I don't think this is anybody's fault. I don't think a doctor, a nurse, a policewoman, a policeman. I don't think any of these people are at fault here. I want to be really clear about this. I think that the frameworks that some of them are given are limited.
45:30 Speaker 00 Hmm.
45:31 Speaker 01 Even psychologists, psychiatrists, they do a great job of what they do. But I think some of their frameworks have, have a gap. And that's the gap I'm noticing day in, day out. And it's something to do with the interaction between our unconscious mind, which I believe is our body. Our body holds an innate wisdom. I mean, I say, I believe, there's a lot of research into this. It's not just me that believes this. There's, you know, psychotherapy is built on this. There's a whole lot of stuff that's built on this idea. Traditional Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, forms of medicine that are thousands of years older than ours. Acknowledge this. So when we start to bring in that kind of understanding that the bodies are unconscious
46:15 Speaker 01 and that it holds things for us. And we start to interact with that. And we allow nurture and safe spaces and we allow the power of a witness. A caring compassionate witness. It is transformative. And that sometimes, just in the busyness of, you know, a crisis situation, like emergency workers and doctors and specialists and, you know, they're busy. They're doing their little piece of the pie and I get that. But it sometimes gets lost and missed. And I speak to people every day who experience that.
46:48 Speaker 00 And you're kind of seeing these people after those services haven't helped them.
46:53 Speaker 01 Sometimes, yeah, sometimes. It's a huge variety of people I see, men, women. Sometimes in crisis, sometimes dealing with a crisis that happened many years ago. Because it's starting to come up, it's starting to be activated for them by their life at the current time or, or they just get symptoms, they don't know what's going on and they need help to work it out, like, why is this happening to me? You know?
47:14 Speaker 00 Given what happened to you and then the work you do.
47:18 Speaker 01 Hmm.
47:19 Speaker 00 Watching our world right now, the fact that a woman is dying at the hands of a, usually a man, once a week. What's that like for you to see that playing out?
47:30 Speaker 01 I feel helpless.
47:32 Speaker 00 Hmm.
47:32 Speaker 01 I feel motivated.
47:36 Speaker 01 I do sometimes volunteer and I do what I can. I feel at times overwhelmed by that fact.
47:47 Speaker 01 And the way that I've chosen to approach it is that, I don't know, my skill set is not suited to prevention. I have some really amazing friends working in that space. The only way that I can help with prevention is to empower women or to help them know themselves or to help them trust themselves. You know how I said I had a spidey sense?
48:06 Speaker 00 That gut feeling.
48:06 Speaker 01 My body told me, I'm a somatic therapist, my body told me, do not open that door. But at that point, I wasn't trained in listening to it. Our body gives us so much information that we don't listen to. So my approach now is to give people that. I'm really motivated to work in the space of that gap with people in that system as well. I would absolutely love to find a way to advocate for the people in there doing this work, whether first responders, whether it's the martial arts instructors, you know, because a lot of people end up doing martial arts after violent incidents, to learn to be just a bit more trauma informed and to understand how to show that care even amidst all the hustle and bustle and how to understand, I guess, you know,
48:51 Speaker 01 what people in those situations need and in a way that goes beyond just the practical.
48:58 Speaker 00 It's hard because I want to talk about martial arts and
49:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:00 Speaker 00 I was thinking, I don't, women shouldn't have to learn martial arts, but
49:05 Speaker 01 Well, it's an interesting.
49:07 Speaker 00 Because it's not on us to stop violent men. They need to be working on themselves.
49:12 Speaker 01 Martial arts isn't only that.
49:14 Speaker 00 I was gonna say, tell me about why we all need to be doing martial arts.
49:18 Speaker 01 Look, there's a huge, huge place when you're dealing with any kind of deeply difficult emotional situation, movement is medicine. Like, we know, you ask anyone who has done, even high performance athletes or weightlifters or dancers, anyone who's done really intense physical activity, they will tell you it's more than just that. I mean, it's a whole, it's a whole self-activity. So, you know, I mentioned that having past hurts and traumas can fragment us, it can keep part of us in the past or when you bring it all back together and become fully present in something, that's transformational.
50:04 Speaker 01 And I often say that you won't be able to call yourself back from your wounded past unless you are able to build safety in the present. So building safety, yes, self defence is safety. I do not feel afraid rightly or wrongly if I walk down the street at night. I don't feel afraid. I always get a shock when my friend says, oh, well, you walked me to my car. I'm like, oh, really? Because I don't think that way.
50:28 Speaker 00 Don't you?
50:29 Speaker 01 I just don't.
50:30 Speaker 00 Because I would argue that most women still do.
50:32 Speaker 01 That's right. Most women do. A man recently who I I sort of sometimes work with said, do you want me to walk you to your car? And I sort of burst out laughing. He was trying to be nice, you know? I was like, I don't think you, I don't think I need you to, I can protect you if you want. You know what I mean? Like, I feel confident in my ability to protect myself.
50:48 Speaker 00 Right.
50:48 Speaker 01 Maybe that's brazen, but but I'm trained, you know?
50:52 Speaker 00 And martial arts, from what I understand, is it doesn't matter the size of the person. It's about the skill, right?
50:58 Speaker 01 I'm not big.
50:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
50:59 Speaker 01 And I train with very big men for the most part, very big, strong men. Um, no, it's it's technique. I mean, it's it's a little harder if you don't get the technique right, that's for sure. But when you're training martial arts, you're in a place of um complete immersion. You have to be. You've got someone, you know, it's high stakes.
51:17 Speaker 00 Hmm.
51:17 Speaker 01 So so when I'm training, ideally, when I walk on the mats, everything stays outside. I'm in an interaction. It's a collaborative, it's a group. Again, groups, I think groups and other people have a huge place in healing from difficulty. I think that, you know, doing things on your own isolation is your worst enemy if you're going through something.
51:38 Speaker 00 Hmm.
51:39 Speaker 01 So there's that, there's the community element. You build trust with men. That's amazing for someone with my history.
51:46 Speaker 00 Yep.
51:46 Speaker 01 Um, and physically, it makes me strong. Emotionally, it makes me strong. It's not easy, but there's a resilience element. Um, and there's a consistency. I'm not great with consistency, but I kind of have to show up if I want to grade to second degree black belt. I I have to keep going. It makes me show up. So it gives me a lot. Yeah, it gives me a lot. It's not really about the self defence and the fighting in the end.
52:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:12 Speaker 01 It's about meeting yourself. It's about becoming whole in more moments. That's how it feels.
52:18 Speaker 00 I think I need to start martial arts.
52:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think everybody does. I'm really interested in the intersection between martial arts and healing from trauma. And this is something that might come into that advocacy. I'm, I'm sort of, something's hatching.
52:32 Speaker 00 Ticking away.
52:33 Speaker 01 It's hatching, yeah. Watch his face.
52:35 Speaker 00 You mentioned your son, you went on to have two more children.
52:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, have three kids.
52:39 Speaker 00 How has everything you've experienced, particularly going through something like that? I know you've got girls, so how has, how's it influenced your parenting and, and the way you've brought them up into the world?
52:51 Speaker 01 I guess, you know, I have concerns for them at times, but they're not me as well. They've had a very, very stable upbringing for the most part. And certainly the second two have, the first one a little bit less so, but we've done a lot of work to support him. And he's been well supported throughout his life. And my current husband, who said he might not listen to this podcast, by the way, uh, is an amazing man and, and has become, you know, a safe space for me and a protector for me in a way and for my kids. And so we are lucky, very fortunate to have that experience, extremely fortunate. And I think my kids are aware of that. I'm pretty honest with them.
53:36 Speaker 01 My young boy, he's nine, he said, I told him a little bit about this, just in case someone heard it, you know? And I told him, you know, there was a man who was going through a really hard time. And then he got a knife and, and mommy got away and she was fine.
53:50 Speaker 01 And then he said yesterday, are you doing that thing with the man who had the hard time tomorrow?
53:56 Speaker 01 So, you know, I do my best to kind of give them what they need to understand the world, but also.
54:00 Speaker 00 In kid language.
54:01 Speaker 01 Not dump them in it, yeah.
54:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
54:02 Speaker 01 Um, but I'm pretty honest with them about it. And, you know, I worry sometimes for the world that is, obviously, like all of us.
54:10 Speaker 00 Hmm.
54:11 Speaker 01 But I choose the love and not the fear. To me, that's the, that's the choice from an internal, internal level.
54:18 Speaker 00 You have so many hats and the other hat that we haven't brought in yet is that you're an educator.
54:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:23 Speaker 00 You've worked with a lot of teenage boys. And I'm interested in your perspective on the next generations.
54:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:31 Speaker 00 Given we are seeing these statistics around, we're seeing a lot of this manosphere around.
54:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:37 Speaker 00 Give us some hope. What are the, what's the next generation?
54:40 Speaker 01 Well, that's a good segue, love, not fear.
54:42 Speaker 00 Hmm.
54:43 Speaker 01 You know, um, young men, young boys.
54:47 Speaker 01 They are exposed to a lot and they are also, I think, sometimes quite isolated. I've noticed, what I've noticed is that, you know, a lot of people, as a result of what we hear and as a result of the society we live in, there's not a lot of intergenerational places. There's not a lot of places, but we get to know people at different ages. So I've, you know, just casually heard comments from like midlife women of, I hate teenagers or, you know, it's the parents' fault, that sort of stuff.
55:19 Speaker 00 Yeah.
55:20 Speaker 01 Um, and I understand why, like, I don't blame them for thinking that, but, but my approach to this is we need to stay close, no matter what, we need to stay close. We need to stay close with our families, with our extended families, with our young men and women. They are growing up in a really crazy world that I think we barely understand, that we didn't grow up in, right? And we don't have to understand all of it to know that connection between us and them is absolutely key. That said, it is not safe for these men and boys to be exposed to what they're exposed to. It is not safe for a lot of young women. The statistics are abominable.
56:04 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
56:05 Speaker 01 And I'm not going to be a Pollyanna and gloss over that. It's abominable. And I hope that we're going to be intervening more and more in this. I think there are interventions coming more and more. Um, social media has a part to play, but I don't blame social media. People use social media. I think we need to take some responsibility for our disconnection with our young people and I think we need to step in. But in the moment, I mean, I've had hairy moments with groups of young men, as a lot of people surely have, and it's challenging to be around a group of young boys in a pack.
56:40 Speaker 00 Hmm.
56:40 Speaker 01 And they do.
56:43 Speaker 01 Gee each other up. It's in their brains and nervous systems to do that at that age, right? So we've got to be careful how we handle that and it cannot be allowed and it must be addressed and it must be called out. And I'm big on ethical bystanding, big on ethical bystanding. That we need to, you know, one person getting surrounded by a group, do not walk past that.
57:05 Speaker 00 No.
57:06 Speaker 01 Stand with them.
57:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
57:07 Speaker 01 Talk to them, look at them, just witness it. The power of witnessing is very underestimated, I think.
57:13 Speaker 00 If someone has been listening to this podcast, what are you hoping that they take away from it? If they were to take one thing?
57:25 Speaker 01 That's a hard question. I mean, it's so personal, right?
57:30 Speaker 01 I hope they feel less alone. I guess my intention in telling this story, you know, stories are really important. Humans have a collective journey through challenge. That's what it is to be human. Life doesn't stop, bad things happen, okay?
57:45 Speaker 01 But when the bad things happen, when the horrible, unimaginably bad things happen, it's really important that we know that it changes, that we move through and that there are infinite ways to do that. And that if you can and when you can, find the right support, get to the point where you can accept what's happened to you and find the right support and reach out and not be isolated and understand who you are through that, how your identity's changed, what it's done for you. That is where the magic is. The magic and the transformation doesn't come from anything else but within you. It's in there already.
58:29 Speaker 01 That's what I kind of want people to know.
58:32 Speaker 00 We've asked you to kind of... Go back and relive and in, in creating this podcast and asking you to come on. What's that been like for you? It has been 26 years and we've asked you to kind of go back into your memories.
58:46 Speaker 01 I'm not gonna lie, it's uncomfortable.
58:47 Speaker 00 Is it? Yeah.
58:49 Speaker 01 I felt really good about doing this and I do still feel really good about doing this, actually. I feel privileged to be able to, to have the ability to speak about it, to have the ability to tell the story from the other side. I think that's kind of remarkable. Wasn't ever able to speak publicly or openly for a really, really long time about anything. So it's a, it's a skill and a, and a privilege, but also I guess I feel supported. I just feel like you guys have been amazing as well. That it kind of gives me a good feeling that these stories can be heard and can be told in a way that is gentle and safe.
59:32 Speaker 01 And I, I'm really grateful that I feel supported enough to tell it, even by the man that did it. So that's remarkable to me and I don't discount that in any way. So a lot of things go into it. It's been pretty hairy to tell it, but I also think that it's sufficiently important to experience that. I brought my courage, I brought my resilience.
59:53 Speaker 00 Listeners are also going to hear Kai's side of the story.
59:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:56 Speaker 00 You have allowed us to do that.
59:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:59 Speaker 00 I felt a bit of trepidation asking you that, but I felt because of the conversation we'd had and how you'd spoken about him. I felt comfortable asking you and you, your response to me was, that's a great idea. And I thought, what a unique kind of situation. What do you hope people get from hearing his side? Because often in these scenarios, we don't hear the man. We don't hear the apology, we don't hear the, the, the kind of journey from their side.
1:00:29 Speaker 01 I hope they get whatever they need. I mean, I don't know what that is and I don't know what he'll say. I have an idea what he'll say.
1:00:37 Speaker 00 What are you hoping he says?
1:00:40 Speaker 01 Actually, I'm not invested in what he says, funnily enough. Uh, I hope he can tell his truth.
1:00:45 Speaker 00 Hmm.
1:00:46 Speaker 01 I think the world needs more truth. I think we need to be more able to tell our stories. Stories are something that humans carry and have a lot of power. And they help us connect with each other and understand what we have in common. And I don't think there's enough of that in the world. So stories for me are connective and I believe in that. I really believe in that.
1:01:08 Speaker 00 Thank you to Elena for joining us on this episode. You can find links to her work in our show notes. This is part one of this episode. Part two is my interview with Kai, the perpetrator in this case. You can find a link to that in our show notes. I'll see you over there.
Previous What's Next For The Aussie Charged With Murdering A Teen In Thailand? Next Part 2: We Spoke To A Victim And Her Perpetrator. This Is Kai's Story. Page updated October 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated