‘Just A Witness.’ Inside A Sexual Assault Trial In Australia

In October 2019, 23-year-old Sarah Rosenberg went on a date at Sydney’s noodle markets with a man she had recently met on a dating app. But when they returned to his place and Sarah explained that she was feeling unwell and didn’t want to be intimate, the night turned into a horrific nightmare. What followed was a grueling journey through a legal system that often felt like it was putting Sarah on trial rather than the man accused. From having her private medical and therapy records subpoenaed to enduring four and a half days of brutal cross-examination without her own lawyer, Sarah experienced firsthand how deeply the justice system can disempower survivors of sexual violence. In this episode of True Crime Conversations, Sarah Rosenberg joins Gemma Bath to share her story, expose the hidden realities of reporting sexual assault in Australia, and discuss how her experience led her to found With You We Can, a registered charity and legal education platform designed to support victims navigating the process. Together, they examine the urgent need for structural reform, the push for independent legal representation for victim-survivors, protecting confidential counselling records, and how to restore agency to those seeking justice. LINKS If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Contact Full Stop Australia https://fullstop.org.au/ on 1800 385 578, 7 days, 24 hours. GET IN TOUCH Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @truecrimeconversations https://www.instagram.com/truecrimeconversations/?hl=en Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960 Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes. CREDITS Guests: Sarah Rosenberg https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533976/Host: Gemma Bath https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemmabath/?originalSubdomain=au Senior Producer & Producer: Tahli Blackman & Ella Maitland Video Editor: Julian Rosario Audio Designer: Tegan Salder Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Gemma Bath?

  It's October 2019 and Sarah's just been on a date with her new love interest Joshua. They ate and laughed their way around Sydney's noodle markets. And now they're back at his place. Their relationship has already become sexually intimate. But tonight Sarah isn't feeling well. "I don't want to have sex tonight," she tells him. "It has nothing to do with you," she assures. "Good to know you're disgusted by me," he replies. And before she can even comprehend his retort, Sarah remembers being flipped on her back. She describes him proceeding to violently rape her. She remembers saying no multiple times. Screaming, kicking, but it just made it worse.

• 0:45Gemma Bath?

  So she went limp, waited for it to be over. "I'm having a shower," he announces afterwards. Sarah's head is spinning. She's numb, in shock, terrified. As he exits the room and turns on the water, Sarah runs.

• 1:10Gemma Bath?

  I'm Gemma Buff and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. Picture this. You've accused someone of rape, of strangling you, suffocating you, of leaving you with nightmares and PTSD. You've plucked up the courage to go to the police and report it. He can surround himself with the best lawyers money can buy. He can have those lawyers dig into the deepest, darkest and most private parts of your life, like your conversations with your therapist, and have them read out in a court of law. He can spend the years leading up to the trial strategising and preparing.

• 1:56Gemma Bath?

  He doesn't have to even take the stand and answer questions, as is his right. You, the alleged victim, have no one. Because the prosecution doesn't work for you, they work for the state. You are simply evidence in your own case. You spend those years isolated and desperate for any basic information about what's happening. You meet the prosecutor assigned one day before trial, for an hour. You walk into court and are expected to answer every and all questions put to you in days-long interrogation processes. This was Sarah's reality, and she is not the exception. She is the rule.

• 2:40Gemma Bath?

  This is how we currently treat victims of sexual assault in Australia. And after navigating the system in New South Wales herself, Sarah Rosenberg has spent the last four years advocating to change it. She knows that's an uphill battle. So in the meantime, she's created resources to help victims navigate the system as it stands. It's called "With You, We Can." Just a note, Joshua is not his name. It's a pseudonym used to allow Sarah to talk more openly about her case because he was found not guilty by a jury. Sarah joins us now to talk about it all.

• 3:22Gemma Bath?

  Sarah, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Take me back to 23-year-old you. It was 2019. What were you doing in life? Where were you at?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  2019, I had just come home from university in Canberra. I wrapped up in 2018 and I moved home and I was excited. I started an internship at the Smith family, like the children's education charity. I ended up getting my, uh, getting my own job funded there and went on to work there for a while. But I remember around the time this all happening, there's literally a photo of me heading into my first day of work with like the lanyard around my neck on the bus, sending it to this guy, which is what we're here to talk about. But I was very excited to be back in Sydney after being away.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  I was also nervous because I have a chronic autoimmune disease that really affects my day-to-day and certainly back then affected it a lot more. So I was nervous about starting work.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  But it was a, it was a new and exciting time for me, like it was new chapter vibes.

• 4:33Gemma Bath?

  You met Joshua on a dating app, as we all do nowadays. Tell me about the start. What was he like? What drew you to him?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  So we met on Bumble and it just went so quickly. And it went so quickly and things like love bombing weren't phrases back then. Like I feel like things have changed a lot. I was just like head over heels for this guy. He, on paper, he sounded amazing, like he was head boy to school. He just liked all of the things that you would obviously seek in someone who seems passionate and active and driven and stable and has their life together.

• 5:22Gemma Bath?

  Yep.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  And it is funny because when I'm answering these questions to you, I'm trying to put myself back to how I felt and what I saw at the time.

• 5:35Gemma Bath?

  Well, so much has happened since. It's tricky.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  It is tricky, but, but it is, like, as we get into this, like, it is worth noting that,

• 5:46Speaker 01

  while I'm saying these things, while I'm saying that like I was head over heels and I was being swept off my feet and I was really into him and I was really excited to have someone so interested in me. It felt like my first kind of adult relationship, like back home after uni. Everyone has their jobs and lives in separate houses and you actually have to like make time to see each other. So it felt really adult, which was exciting. But as I'm speaking, I think it's important to note that even back then, while intellectually I was so excited and I was drawn to him and I felt like he seemed stable.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Physically and somatically, I absolutely did not feel that way. Very early on, very early on, I was fearful of him. I, there was a night I even locked myself in my parents' room when he was staying over, out of nowhere, like I was just...

• 6:46Gemma Bath?

  What sparked it?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I know. It's weird. It's weird. It's like because I was having such cognitive dissonance. It's something I talk about a lot, like cognitive dissonance is crazy. And we need cognitive dissonance to go about our daily lives and like function because the world is heinous and if we deal with that every day, none of us are going to get up and get out of bed. I was in a state of, I guess, I'm kind of, I never thought that I would be a victim of domestic violence or a victim of anything really. But I look back and I'm like, I was so the perfect person to prey on. I was really vulnerable. I'm really close to my family because I've been really sick as well. So I'm extra close to them at a time that in your life is formative because you're meant to be like becoming an adult and individualising.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  And I was like at home on my deathbed. My parents were abroad at the time. I had had, I'd sort of like cut ties with a lot of people from university and I was back, you know, in my hometown, but you know, totally different group of people. Things have changed after four years of uni. And I just quite honestly remember thinking that I just wanted to stay still. I didn't care who came next. I didn't care what it was. I just didn't want any more kind of drama, anything that could impact my health. I'm someone that sort of like, I'm an empath. Like I'm someone that takes on other people's stuff and really gets invested in a lot of things

• 8:15Speaker 01

  when it's, you know, that old kind of pick your battles saying. I just remember like, I want to stay still. And all this guy did was stay still long enough for me to like sync up with him. And actually, all of the things that I'm going, oh, I'm being swept off my feet and we're so into each other, were not real. He was mimicking like my behaviours, mimicking my interests, like all those like classic narcissistic traits that are associated with love bombing, for real, not love bombing as a catchphrase, but love bombing as a tactic of control. And so there were two weeks of just this pure bliss. And he told me he loved me within those two weeks.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  And he proposed to me and he moved houses to be around the corner from me. And all of these things, right, which, and you now, you go, oh my God, crazy. And it's funny because at the time, intellectually, I was like, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. Somatically, I immediately, like, I did not say I love him back. I was like, that's insane. And I intentionally didn't tell the people around me. None of my friends had met him.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Every time we would go out, he would, he had a strange sort of, I don't know if it was a relationship with alcohol or if it was just because his walls were coming down because he was inebriated. Every time he would drink, he would drink like too much for what the occasion warranted. And he would become hyper, hyper fixated and jealous on me with whoever like was around, like him and his friend, you belong to together. He would throw tantrums, he would lie on the ground in the middle of the road.

• 9:55Gemma Bath?

  You just met this guy.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  And I just met this guy. And so while I say that intellectually, I was going, oh my God, amazing. Somatically, I like knew the whole time. I just was, I think I was intentionally suppressing my understanding that this guy was not a...

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Whether he was good or bad, different story, but him being stable and safe, that was totally a lie I was telling myself. I was fearful of him from the start.

• 10:20Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  His eyes in particular, like you'll later, like my, my statement, um, talks a lot about his eyes, his red eyes whenever he was drinking. Like I was scared of this guy and I was just not telling anyone about it because I was going, oh my God, I'm in an adult relationship. This could be it for me. Wouldn't that be nice to not have to ever like go on a dating app again? Or like, I don't know. It was a, it was a vulnerable time in my life where I think I just wanted to stay still. And I don't know if anyone can relate to that. It was just sort of like, I guess it was a feeling of settling, really.

• 10:53Gemma Bath?

  Let's go to the night.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:56Gemma Bath?

  You went on a date.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 10:57Gemma Bath?

  Sydney noodle markets.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Noodle markets. How good.

• 11:01Gemma Bath?

  How did the start of the night go? Were you in sync? Were you having a good time?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  So I'd just come back from a trip with, um, my family, all the girls in the family, um, from Byron Bay. And during that trip, I got really sick. And by really sick, that just looks like a flare up of my autoimmune disease. It wasn't like I had a flu or anything. I was just physically not thriving, probably because the flight had taken me out. So coming home, I was not in a good way. And he had never seen me that unwell before. So I was nervous. Um, I was excited to be spending time together again. Um, but I could tell that something was off and me doing that thing that a

• 11:46Speaker 01

  lot of women do, I think, um, kind of bent over backwards to explain away what was going on or to, like I literally gave him a speech about, I felt like I got on my soapbox and was like, I know you haven't seen me this sick before. Just want you to let you know that like, it's okay. It's nothing to do with you. I almost felt like he was taking it personally, but I mean, for, for tax purposes, the night, the night was fine. Like we had noodles, like it was nice. He had a couple of glasses of wine. I think I had one. Um, he had a couple more. I can't really stomach wine at the best of times, but also especially not when I'm feeling sick. But it, it started out as a, as a very normal evening.

• 12:33Gemma Bath?

  You went back to his house and once again, you told him you felt sick.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:37Gemma Bath?

  You had already been sexually intimate before.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:41Gemma Bath?

  But you said, I'm not feeling it tonight.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  It wasn't like a, I'm not feeling it because he was trying to initiate intimacy. It was like, he was being weird and I felt the need to get on my soapbox. And I turned to him and I said,

• 12:58Speaker 01

  my skin hurts right now. Like I don't want to be touched. That has nothing to do with you. Um, my nerves are tingling. This is because I'm inflamed. I feel like you are mad at me. Like what's going on? And this is when it happened. He,

• 13:23Speaker 01

  he, he turned to me and he said, good to know that you're disgusted by me. And then he turned the light off and then it happened. So it wasn't like we were like in a process of, hey, should we, should we sleep together? Should we not? It was like not even in the kind of the realm of the conversation at all. It wasn't like something we did every night, certainly. Um, it, it wasn't assumed. It wasn't a coercive, oh, come on, please. It was like not even.

• 13:57Gemma Bath?

  No discussion really.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Not even, we weren't even talking about it. So I was just kind of shocked by what he had said and felt so upset by that after I've been so vulnerable and I'm trying to make him feel better, which is crazy in, in the first place, that I'm trying to make you feel better, that I feel sick and you seem to be taking it personally. Like, I don't even know what that means or what that says about a person. But it, it was so sudden. It happened straight away and it escalated very quickly.

• 14:29Gemma Bath?

  As much as you feel comfortable sharing, what do you remember about what happened next?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  I remember his neck and his face pushed into, pushed into me. And I remember the things he was saying, because once again, they were really strange things. He was saying, I knew you never loved me. I knew you were always thinking about other men in this like low, insidious voice that I did not recognise. And I started like pulling his hair and pushing his, his body. And I was really

• 15:12Speaker 01

  pinned down. And this is like the, the, he, he was inside of me at this point, like the, the, the rape had started. But I, in that moment was, I think about how later on, and you talk about trauma responses and people are like, it's okay that you did this or did that. And it's like, I fought my little legs off.

• 15:35Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  I was pulling his hair. It wasn't working. I was screaming in his ear. It wasn't working. I started kicking my legs. It wasn't working. And then he strangled me and he strangled me with both hands and sitting up on his knees with the, with the full force of his body. I still, I was fighting. I was, I was scratching. I was pulling, got no bloody nails. I picked them off. I was pulling and then

• 16:06Speaker 01

  he let go and I gasped for air. And then very quickly I was suffocated with a pillow that he had grabbed from next to my head. And he sort of smoothed his hands across my face and pressed down. So I was really stuck under there.

• 16:22Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  During that time, it's believed that I lost consciousness. Um, I remember focusing on the lights and the patterns that I was seeing, because there was a lot of pressure being placed on my eyes and I couldn't breathe. And when the pillow did eventually get removed, I made a very intentional decision to go limp. So that's where the freezing kicked in for me because I had tried fighting and it had made it worse. I'd just been strangled and suffocated. So I went limp. Um, it kept going.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  There's like a second round of rape because he, he flipped me over. Um, he grabbed my hair and, and pulled me up by my hair until I was on all fours. He, when he like was done, he let go and I just collapsed onto the bed. Like no part of me was holding myself up by that stage. Like I was just limp and I was numb. And I curled into a ball and I got my legs ready in case he came back. But all that happened was he grabbed, um, my towel from the back of the door and threw it at me and said, I'm going to take a shower and maybe assuming that I would join. And it felt like I was

• 17:47Speaker 01

  lying there forever. I remember touching my face and noticing that I'd been crying. I, I didn't know. Um, and then something clicked and I grabbed everything of mine in the room and bolted. He must have heard me. I mean, like it's an old terrace house. He must have heard the padding on the stairs. And he chased me and got to the door at the same time as me. I put my hand on the door handle. He put his hand on the door to stop it.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  And then came the immediate, like, I know now that this was bullshit, this, this immediate justification. I'm a monster. I belong in jail. People that even think of doing that belong in jail. I don't know what's happened to me. Something's wrong with me. I've had a brain snap, all of this stuff. And I remember it so well. I looked up and I looked at him and I realised that was the first time we had made eye contact since he had said he was disgusted by me and then very violently assaulted me. Like I hadn't looked at him the entire time. He, I couldn't get his eyes to look at me. I looked him in the eyes and I just opened the door and he let me and I went to my car, which was parked across the road.

• 19:04Gemma Bath?

  That is so heavy. Thank you for telling us that. I've heard you, well, I, I read in your article with Nina Fennell, who we've had on this podcast. She's an advocate of, um,

• 19:18Speaker 01

  A lot of things.

• 19:18Gemma Bath?

  sexual violence, being one of the things. And she has told your story and a quote in there from you I saw was that you feel like you want to tell the details of exactly what happened. Why? Why do you like to tell people?

• 19:36Speaker 01

  There are a lot of reasons behind it. And a, and a lot of them are, you know, it's the same reason that I staunchly identify as a victim and not a survivor, because the story of resilience is a lot more marketable. And, um, with the details of my story, I think we so often hear,

• 19:57Speaker 01

  which is incredibly important, we so often hear about sexual coercion and how it goes so unnoticed, um, in intimate partner relationships.

• 20:08Gemma Bath?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  But this wasn't that. There are people who do intend to rape and who do use it as a tool of control and who,

• 20:19Speaker 01

  who don't do this just because they haven't learnt better. And I think people often hear rape and they automatically tune out because it's a woman's issue. But a story of violence is believable. And I just think it's a way to keep people engaged. I mean, people love the gory details, clickbait as much as anything. But I don't want to water anything down to make other people uncomfortable.

• 20:51Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  And I also know that physical aggression is taken more seriously than sexual violence. And so it's as much a way to keep people reading than, than anything.

• 21:05Gemma Bath?

  It's a lot for you to carry though, having to think that while telling your story.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a lot for, all of the whole world's a lot to carry, like for anyone, so.

• 21:17Gemma Bath?

  Up next, Sarah reveals the first message she received from Joshua after leaving his house that night. You know the drill. You pick the couch, pay the deposit, then wait 12 weeks praying it matches the living room. Let's skip that. Mamma Mia is giving one lucky subscriber a $5,000 voucher for B2C furniture to spend on pieces that are in stock and ready to ship right now. High-end style, zero weight. To enter, head to mamma mia dot com dot au forward slash subscribe. You'll unlock all our subscriber-only podcasts, articles, and our fitness app, Move. Already subscribed? You're already in the running. Offer ends October 31st. T's and C's apply.

• 22:01Gemma Bath?

  Once you'd left, he started texting you, didn't he?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:05Gemma Bath?

  What were in those messages?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  He was checking that I was okay. He kept apologising. He wanted to know that I'd gotten home safe. He didn't know that I had not gotten home safe. I had not moved and was sitting in the car.

• 22:18Gemma Bath?

  He was still out there?

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I remember looking like in my, there were all these moments of like seeing myself, like looking in the car mirror and like you just, oh God, this can't be happening. I, my first instinct was, okay, I've got to go to the hospital, get a rape kit. And then immediately, rape kit? What? That didn't happen. That kind of happened to me. And then it was like, okay, obviously I'll just go home. And then I was like, no, my parents, I don't want to worry my parents. They'll be so worried. Like, they're so happy for me. And, oh, like, I just immediately started belittling my experience and justifying his behaviour. And I lay back in the car, I put the seat back and I put on like rain noises from that

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Calm app. Shout out Calm, like the free rain noises. And I don't know how long, I mean, I do because it's in my statement, but for me, I don't know how much time passed. Like, it felt like once again, an eternity. And then the phone started going. And I didn't know what else to do. This is someone I thought loved me. I did not feel like what had happened could have possibly happened. I thought I must have been interpreting it wrong, like I'd got it all wrong. So I responded to his messages and he, he came out and he sat in the car with me.

• 23:37Gemma Bath?

  Did he?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yep. And we just sat there listening to rain noises for a long time, just in silence. It very quickly became a situation where I was worried he would hurt himself because he was so ashamed of what he'd done. And I fell victim, and my whole family did, we fell victim to this narrative really quickly. And we set about trying to get him help. I don't know what kind of help. I know now that, you know, people who have mental illness are more likely to be victims than perpetrators. So certainly that wasn't it. And it's, it's a, it's a really common loophole that perpetrators actually abuse to try and get out of court

• 24:19Speaker 01

  hearings and things. But, um, he'd said he, he was worried he'd gone into some kind of psychosis. And he started like talking about things that, I don't know, sounded reasonable at the time. Like he'd done drugs in the past and done, done some intense drugs that I hadn't known about. And that was the old me. But, um, you know, maybe something to do with that. Like, he, he just, it sounded reasonable. And I mean, I'm not a big believer in the carceral system. My mum used to be a lawyer, and certainly wasn't a big believer either. We knew enough to know that it would be bad, even for someone who was well. And I'm not a well person physically. And we knew it wouldn't bring out, bring about any

• 25:02Speaker 01

  good outcomes for him either. And so we sort of set about this process of like, basically hosting interventions. Like, it sounds so silly now. It's like, it sounds like a stupid movie. We were like hosting interventions with his parents. There was like a joint psychiatric consultation.

• 25:19Gemma Bath?

  Really?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Like, we were like, in hindsight, we were bargaining with him. He was bargaining. I'll, please, like, I'll do anything for you not to report. And so I wanted him to stop working with children. I wanted him to get intervention, whatever that looked like. And I wanted him to tell his friends and family the truth because I wanted him to be held accountable to his actions. But I, I wanted them to, they had all said really nasty things and blocked me on social media. And, you know, he would have said like my crazy ex-girlfriend or something, even though we hadn't broken up. And it, it was awful. It

• 26:02Speaker 01

  added to the trauma tenfold. So I wanted him to do these things. And it became very clear that he wasn't doing any of them and we were being manipulated. And that's when I made the decision to go to the police. I felt like I had no choice. I tried to do everything I could to not report, actually, which is kind of funny because I've come a very long way since then.

• 26:26Gemma Bath?

  What did reporting look like for you? How did that process go?

• 26:32Speaker 01

  God, every time I zoom into one part of the process, it's like, in and of itself, this could be enough to destabilise someone.

• 26:43Gemma Bath?

  Step one.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Step one, God. I, it took three police, it took three police stations and five officers to finalise a statement. It would take 24 hours over three months. Covid was closing in and New South Wales Police didn't have Zoom. It felt like an uphill battle from the start. And it wasn't just because I was retelling my story over and over. It was because every part of the process takes away your agency, just like it was taken during the assault, right at a time that I was trying to reclaim it by doing something about it.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  It's like the kinds of heads ups that you think were common decency just went out the window. And I, I mean, like, a lot of the officers were victims of the system as well. They're working out of rooms that look like jail cells with no windows. They're overburdened. I remember feeling a lot of like compassion for them. And at the same time, I had to be escorted to go to the bathroom at the station and I felt like a criminal. And

• 27:49Gemma Bath?

  Didn't you have one detective ask you to spell vagina?

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, I did.

• 27:54Gemma Bath?

  Like, there's no excuses there.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  It's like, just don't put someone, don't make a victim of sexual violence a guinea pig for a detective. She was new. Like, bless her cotton socks. Like, it makes me feel really bad. It was bad.

• 28:09Gemma Bath?

  And why were you bounced to three? Because you went to one, you told your story, and they said, oh, no, sorry, you're gonna have to go here.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:18Gemma Bath?

  And they didn't share your statement?

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Like, the people who are meant to have the answers don't even have the answers. And at the same time, duty officers are the least experienced in a station. Like, the person who answers the phone is the least likely to know how to help you. And that is so stupid. Like, it's not their fault, but it's so stupid.

• 28:36Gemma Bath?

  But it's also, sexual assault is something that is being reported every day.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  I know. At such extreme levels, you'd think they could sort of get their, get together a little better. Like, it's so hard because, and there are certainly, like, I, I'm lucky to have not experienced like discrimination and racism. And, you know, I carry a lot of privilege. And there are officers that certainly have, have been drawn to the job, I think, because of the power they can then wield. I didn't really feel like, for me, what, I, I felt like it was the result of a lack of legal literacy from the very people who were meant to be

• 29:19Gemma Bath?

  Across that.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Across it. And so, yeah, I, I definitely feel like it wasn't, it wasn't intentional. That kind of doesn't matter. When the harm is that bad, like, a process doesn't have to be cruel to do harm. All it has to do is not centre the experiences of victim survivors and the experiences of women generally. Like, the law does not reflect the reality of women's lives at all.

• 29:46Gemma Bath?

  So you found that reporting process cruel?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  It wasn't intentional. It didn't have to be cruel to do harm. It was cruel, though. It was laughable. It was humiliating and it was drawn out. And it was, you know, everything you hear that it is. And it was hopeful and it was kind. And there were officers who I adored merely for being competent and changed my world just by sending me a text before calling me from the unknown number that I had become so scared of. Like, there is no one thing, there is no one person.

• 30:23Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  And even at the time I was going through it, I felt that way. I felt really sorry for the officers. I felt really angry with the officers, but I felt sorry for them too. And that is not the experience of, of a lot of people who, you know, harm is done intentionally. But I just felt like this couldn't be, there was an overwhelming feeling of, this can't be working for you either. This can't, like, this isn't good for me, obviously. But how is this efficient for you? Like, you guys are doing a disservice to your own job by freezing when it comes to victims. Like, I think they've been taught to handle us with

• 31:02Speaker 01

  care. So really basic common decency goes out the window. And obviously, that's not okay. But I sort of think about all of the things that led to that point for an individual officer. Like, maybe they're not supported in the workplace to have compassion. They are overburdened. They, they know, a lot of them know that the system is hopeless. That's not their job to make a decision about what a jury is or isn't going to think about you. That's called downstream decision-making. And that is not up to them. But a lot of them probably think they're doing something useful by saving you. But the whole point is that this is about restoring agency. So it doesn't matter that it's not intentional. It matters

• 31:47Speaker 01

  that you're doing harm. Like, this is about giving, this should be about giving victim survivors information and choice, even in the tiniest, tiniest details of the process. And like, yeah, maybe that feels stupid for them, so they ignore it in their training. Or maybe they just don't realise how significant it is to offer a victim this room or that room. But at this point, with like, the crime, like, being committed at this extent, knowing that we rely on victims to courageously speak up so that the state can do their job that they want to do and prosecute offenders, we, we can't keep going the way we're going.

• 32:25Gemma Bath?

  You're asking too much of them.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 32:36Gemma Bath?

  So Joshua was arrested and charged with six counts, including rape, intentional suffocation and intentional choking. What was that?

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Oh, that sounds crazy, doesn't it? Wow.

• 32:47Gemma Bath?

  Yeah. Do you, was it long after you'd reported? What was that process? Were you kept in kind of, did you know that he was going to be charged? Were you kept in kind of communication?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  So after I signed my statement, the last session of which in and of itself was four hours. And the first time I was told I could have a support person with me, shout out to my friend Nick. Um, after that, the investigation began. It was three months, which is quite a quick turnaround for things like this. I collected a lot of evidence myself, like I really supported the process. And I've been asked whether I think the detectives would have been that rigorous. Um, some of them certainly, but some of them not. But either way, I shouldn't have been asked to do that. Um, but it was three months until he was charged.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  And the detective in charge by that time, who I was really close to, she ended up coming to my 25th birthday, which was spent waiting, um, waiting for court. She made a decision to charge him and then call me because she knew how anxiety inducing it would have been.

• 33:56Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  And so I was at family dinner and I got a call. Well, I got a text saying, I'm going to call you. Cause she, we had like a routine by then. And I answered the call and I started just walking away from the table. And she told me they had him in, in custody and had charged him. And I like literally collapsed to the ground. I just like melted. I never expected to get that far.

• 34:18Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  The whole time through the reporting process and the, the process of making a statement, I just kept saying to my parents, let's just keep going. Let's just see what evidence they collect or let's just see if it goes any further. Because no one wanted me to report. And I at the start didn't want to report. Somewhere along the way, I was like, you know, I, I deserve a chance at justice. And I think this is the way to help potential future victims of him. You know, I've got to do something. I'm so well supported. I'll give it a go. But I, I never thought it would get as far as it did. And so hearing that was like wild to me. I remember the room just spinning and I asked really silly questions immediately.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  I said, is he, have you given him a drink?

• 35:05Gemma Bath?

  Like Sarah.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really weird. She was like, what? The detective was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, I don't know, like he liked Gatorade. She was like, what? I was like, is there like a chair in there, like a table? Is it like a cell? Like, like how long has he been there? Did he say anything? He had rocked up with a lawyer, so he, he knew. Um, and I found out in trial, actually, that he'd had a lawyer in the immediate aftermath, which was horrific to find out because me and my family were trying to help him.

• 35:31Gemma Bath?

  Oh, right.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  During that stage. Um, but he rocked up with a lawyer and, you know, didn't say anything. And the detective, when, when they, they have to read out, you know, the charge sheet. And they also, because it was intimate partner violence, they automatically have to put in place an ADVO in New South Wales. That's what it's called. And it has to be read out to him. And it says really sternly, like you, like violence is not a normal part of a relationship. And like, you are now in the minority of like this and that. And it's just really funny because it's, I'm not funny at all, but you've got to laugh. Otherwise you'll cry. But it, it's just brutal. And they read it to him and she, the detective in charge got a colleague, a guy who had been sort of quite interested in the case to come in as well.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Who sort of off the record was like, mate, I mean, obviously you haven't said anything to us yet. But her statement is 26 pages. Like I really, I've really got to hope you never do this to anyone else. And so, I mean, that was comforting to hear. Um, and we drove home from dinner past the police station to pick up my copy of the ADVO.

• 36:37Gemma Bath?

  Oh, wow.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:39Gemma Bath?

  And then you waited three years to go to trial?

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, two years. And then that whole process just there had been about a year. Um, once a decision to prosecute is made, you are just in a queue.

• 36:52Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, right.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  And my queue was two years long. And that, that's really short. The people right now, because of COVID, like the backlog,

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I'm one of the lucky ones, which is a crazy thing to say.

• 37:07Gemma Bath?

  Can you articulate though, what that wait is like? Because you still have to live in the knowledge of knowing that you then have to go to court and relive it all again.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Those two years are the most difficult thing I have ever experienced. It's, it's hard to put words to, oh, I've got like shivers just like now, just thinking about it. You are completely suspended in limbo. Your life is on hold. You are a shell of yourself. You are entirely dissociated. And you are actively trying to keep the assault front of mind that whole time so that you can give clear testimony. It is crazy. I put off really what would be life-changing therapies. Because there's, you just sneeze and the whole thing gets derailed. Meanwhile, he can literally do anything. But we just didn't want to do anything to derail the case.

• 38:00Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  My whole family were witnesses. I couldn't speak to anyone.

• 38:04Gemma Bath?

  About it?

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it, it was the worst time in my life. I will never get those years back.

• 38:11Gemma Bath?

  Can you explain that a bit more? Cause I don't think people realise. So like, obviously you're really close to your mum and dad.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:16Gemma Bath?

  You've got siblings and you can't talk to your mum about what happened to you.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  It's like, you kind of don't have words for it. It was, we were such goody-two-shoes. My mum is like looking about going, what were we doing? She's like, mum and dad didn't even read each other's statements. All the things that.

• 38:32Gemma Bath?

  You were following the book.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  We were so good. I was perfect. I was the perfect victim. Like it was, oh my God, it was so bad. It was so bad. I don't think I slept for two years. I mean, the one thing I did have was that I was starting with You We Can. So that.

• 38:50Gemma Bath?

  So you started it during those two years?

• 38:51Speaker 01

  By the time of the trial, with You We Can was a, a, a public first of its kind resource. And I had in that time, like educated myself about the system. I was so in the know about what, I knew how many jury members would be in panel. Like all these stupid things that no one tells you because they're kind of meaningless.

• 39:11Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  But they mean everything to a victim. I was across it. Like I was like ready. But I was in complete isolation. I had like turned nocturnal. My health was obviously at an all time low. Um,

• 39:27Speaker 01

  everyone was a danger to me. I was so scared of anyone who knew anyone who knew someone who might know him.

• 39:33Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  And I was also contagious because reporting is social suicide. So I had people actively distance themselves from me, just as much as I distanced myself from everyone else because, I don't know, they wanted to go to his house party or whatever it is. You know, like it's, there's so much internalised misogyny and justifying away and cognitive dissonance. And people don't want to believe that perpetrators are people that we know and love. And like, I didn't want to believe that either. And I wanted to get him help, but I couldn't understand why his friends didn't also want to get him help.

• 40:08Gemma Bath?

  Tell us what With You We Can is so that people understand.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  With You We Can is a nationally accessible, free to use online legal education platform and advocacy organisation. So we're a registered charity that works at a national level that aims to demystify the police and legal processes for victims of sexual violence and its alternatives, very much while working to improve those processes. Um, that kind of information is quite literally the bare minimum. I couldn't believe that something like With You We Can didn't exist. And I think that's why I had such immense support from the stakeholders that are involved, like cross-sector contribution, um, academics, advocates, experts, frontline services, police as well.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  But the police who input into the resource can't be named because it's a conflict of interest to look like you're helping victims of sexual violence. And if that doesn't demonstrate why we need With You We Can, I don't know what does. The advocacy side of it is that, is, it is important to me. But, so I was going through the system when the consent laws in New South Wales changed.

• 41:20Gemma Bath?

  Yep.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  And I was over the moon and I was so excited and I just felt like I owed my life to Saxon Mullins. And then at the same time, I was devastated because they didn't apply to me because the law can't be applied retrospectively.

• 41:31Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  So there are people right now, like yes, we're working on law reform and things are changing slowly, painfully, but they're changing.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  But that's irrelevant to someone right now who was going through a system blindly, who is doing it to the shrill sound of people claiming they've lied, who has no idea about the legal decisions being made about them, without them, who is waiting for an unknown number to call just for a tidbit of information about a case that supposedly revolves around them. Like, there are people right now who need help. So that resource in and of itself, I feel, will always need to exist no matter what law reform advocacy I turn to.

• 42:13Gemma Bath?

  But it sounds like you were creating this resource, knowing that what you'd experienced wasn't okay and you weren't even at trial yet. Could you have foreseen how traumatizing the trial could have been? Given that you'd done all the research, could you have foreseen what was gonna happen?

• 42:29Speaker 01

  I entered the system with eyes wide open. It was worse than I possibly could have imagined. It was the stuff of nightmares. It is the stuff of my nightmares. But it's like you go out into the real world and it is so incredibly destabilising to have your eyes open and to experience things that you go, "Oh, that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen to me." Like, "Oh, someone's made a misogynistic comment. That doesn't happen to me." Like, you grow up and you're just like, "Oh, my God." It doesn't matter how educated I am and how much I know that, you know, women have fought to get here and all of the history of things as they are. It doesn't matter. Those things still happen.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  And it is so destabilising when it does. I mean, no one knew what to do when I was assaulted. I was just like, "There is no way that I get assaulted. That's not what happens to me." Victims of domestic violence are women with children who are in, like, long-term relationships. Like, I just, it doesn't abuse, it doesn't discriminate when it finds you. And I did not know that.

• 43:41Gemma Bath?

  Before we get to the trial, I want you to tell me about the phone call you got from your doctor that you hadn't seen, that you hadn't seen for many, many years.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  I got a phone call from a doctor I hadn't seen in years, asking me what she should do because my medical records had been subpoenaed,

• 44:00Speaker 01

  as if I knew what the fuck to do. And there's also like a level there of, we're told to trust people in white coats. So it was really confusing to have an authority figure ask me what to do.

• 44:10Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  I have a chronic autoimmune disease and I knew that would be used against me. It was very relevant to the assault itself, as we've spoken about.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  And I didn't know in what way. I didn't know what that would look like, but I knew it would come up somehow, that the defence would want to make an argument about me being unwell. For me, I felt that, you know,

• 44:35Speaker 01

  any evidence of my illness just shows how vulnerable and weak physically I was. So I didn't understand, I couldn't foresee the ways it would be twisted to discredit me and the ways that happens all the time. That is completely the norm for complainants. But I received this phone call after two years of begging the prosecution to get on top of my illness. Like, again, whatever that looked like. It turns out there's a scheme in New South Wales that sits with legal aid called the Sexual Assault Communications Privilege Scheme, where complainants get an independent lawyer to represent them and challenge access attempts to their medical and counselling histories. It was too late. They'd all been accessed outside of due process.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  And even though it's outside of due process, the defence can just claim that, "Oh, we didn't know. It's a very niche part of the law", even though it's the most common thing that is done by defence barristers. I love that after all these years, the best we still have is that she's crazy because she went to therapy.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  So I was really, I was distraught because of how frustrating it was. So then when I did get flicked to that legal aid scheme too late, it was like I was a nuisance. And the lawyer had to learn my name so quickly. And it got to the stage, it got to the stage where we had to choose between allowing my privacy to be invaded, keeping in mind it kind of already had been because they'd accessed the documents. But at least they could say, "Let's not question her on the documents." At least they could challenge that aspect of it. It got to the point where we had to choose between invading my privacy, like sanctioning that, or delaying the trial.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  And my mum had to intervene. I had to like give her legal authority or whatever it is. And she spoke to the lawyer and just said, "Stand down." Like, "Do not appeal again. Do not object to their objection because you will not have a witness if this trial is delayed anymore." Obviously referring to my mental health by then.

• 46:45Gemma Bath?

  Let's set up what that room looks like, the trial room. Because I don't think people are aware. He can have any defence team he wants. He can hire as many people as he needs. He has those years to strategise and prepare. Who do you have in that room?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Literal years, literal years. He's flanked by the highest-paid QC in the country. Like, he had two lawyers as well, plus their junior. There's like usually like, there's usually like barristers and then they're, you know, like in the movies, the people behind doing the groundwork. And the same with the Crown. There's a junior solicitor on the prosecuting team. He is flanked by the best lawyers money can buy. He is prepared. He has been taught when to look at the jury, when to look bashful, when to look remorseful. He's been taught to bow so low that he woo's the judge.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  I walked into that courtroom alone. I met the prosecutor one working day before trial. They got handed the brief of evidence one working day before trial. There is no way that they could be across a case enough to prosecute it in that little time.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  You're allowed a support person. My godmother came and she could sit at the back of the courtroom in silence and watch on in horror. Like, there is nothing she can do because she can't speak. It is, you know, I was pushed through those courtroom doors and they slam shut behind you and you are literally like you're a sitting duck. It is...

• 48:24Gemma Bath?

  Because the prosecutor isn't actually your lawyer, right?

• 48:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:26Gemma Bath?

  They work for the state.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  They represent the state.

• 48:28Gemma Bath?

  So there's no representation for you.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 48:32Gemma Bath?

  So no one to intervene, no one to say, "You can't say that."

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. It is, the power imbalance is pretty staggering. Most victims unfortunately are also learning for the first time at trial that they are unrepresented. Like, I think we think that, you know, the support of prosecuting team, like, that's your team of lawyers. No, they have nothing to do with you. They learnt your name yesterday and you're not in their interest, is how it's framed. We talk a lot about interests and interested parties. And you are just a witness to a case that firstly would not exist without you, but also quite literally happened like to you so physically. Like, the way you are, the physical embodiment of that crime,

• 49:21Speaker 01

  to be treated as just a prop rather than a valued participant is crazily objectifying and kind of mirrors the

• 49:32Speaker 01

  the objectifying kind of misogynistic way that a sexual assault unfolds as well. So, I mean, start to finish through and through every which angle you look at it, the system is not designed to support the person it's meant to protect.

• 49:48Gemma Bath?

  You were cross-examined for days. What was that like? What did they ask you about?

• 49:54Speaker 01

  I think Nina's done a like analysis. I think I was asked like 2,000 questions or something. I had four and a half days of cross-examination with only about an hour or so of evidence in chief. Like, how can you examine me for that long after I've given that little evidence? And there was no break in between the two as well, which was like horrific.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  So going through trial, I, I mean, I'd been told to not try and win the trial with every response. Like, don't try and, you know, just answer questions clearly. Don't bring up something else. Don't try and fit in bits and bobs. And as if you even have time to think rationally about that when you're being like annihilated in front of a room full of people.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  But I still,

• 50:45Speaker 01

  like, it was awful, but I still, you know, was comforted by the fact that the prosecution had said that they were going to go forward with or without me, which is very, very rare. All of that time spent trying to get him help had led to a huge amount of supporting evidence. I never really felt like the evidence sat with me. I mean, obviously it does and technically you are the evidence in chief. But there were just, there was a long list of witnesses and I

• 51:16Speaker 01

  could take comfort in that at least. But I mean, it was awful. My parents were just sitting outside. There was no room for them. His whole family had a private room. My parents were just floating in the lobby,

• 51:29Speaker 01

  desperate for any update. I would come out, you know, to go and throw up in the bathroom or something. And they can't ask anything. They can't ask anything. I can't even like look at them. I can't because you're accused of colluding.

• 51:43Gemma Bath?

  Well, I've seen your mum describe it as watching her daughter getting raped. Like, that's what it felt like.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  She says, it's funny that you say that because I haven't heard that in a while and I was thinking about it last night. She said that it was like watching me be raped with her hands tied behind her back.

• 52:00Gemma Bath?

  It's a pretty visceral description.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is disempowering, like, isn't a strong enough word.

• 52:09Gemma Bath?

  He was found not guilty.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 52:12Gemma Bath?

  Were you there for the verdict?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 52:14Gemma Bath?

  Were you expecting that verdict?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Yes, the verdict was very structurally unsurprising after the trial unfolded in the way that it unfolded. That's another episode. Uh, but I was in a meeting with the DPP, the, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, while the verdict was being given. And even though the verdict was obvious, it's funny, I never actually got told it by anyone, which is so inappropriate. Yeah, my friend Nick, like my friend Nick confirmed it with me like weeks later.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Like, that's so, that's crazy. That's crazy. I've had friends who, who've been to trial, who, they wouldn't even wait for them to get to court in time for the verdict. Like, it's just got nothing to do with you. You're just a witness.

• 53:04Gemma Bath?

  Well, I've seen stats, well, recent stats, Bureau of Statistics stats, only seven percent

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:10Gemma Bath?

  of reports ending in a conviction.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:14Gemma Bath?

  That's minuscule.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  If you think though, like, if we talk about like the structural design of a system, if, if a prosecutor has handed the brief of evidence yesterday and they learnt your name and the rapist's name yesterday, and they're expected to lead a case versus him being prepared for two years, being like, coached, having a right to silence, like all, all of the things that they are afforded as defendants. It is no wonder that cases are falling over. Um, victims have no rights, but the few procedural protections that we are afforded, which relates to our, uh, private records, like counselling notes.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Even those few protections are routinely circumvented without consequence. And so what you're doing is you're putting the victim on trial, like we're prosecuting the victim. He has a right to silence. She's up there talking about why she is making up the assault because her parents got divorced when she was a kid and that's led her to feel like revengeful against men, like information that has nothing to do with anything and is also not meant to be i- i- in, in the courtroom in front of a jury. And then no one's objecting. It's like we're reinforcing rape myths in front of a jury. And then like wondering why we have a culture of impunity when they're going out into the world with those myths like reinforced.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Like you're in a fancy courtroom, there's a guy in a wig and he's saying that she's a skank, so she asked for it. And no one says otherwise.

• 54:51Gemma Bath?

  What I found refreshing with your advocacy work is you're very clear in the things that you think need to change. And they're big things that you think will make a big difference. One, we've got With You We Can, which is like filling that literacy gap. Two, you think having an independent lawyer for a victim is a game changer. Are we anywhere close to having that?

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're, we're pretty close. We've like got it up and running in, in, in a couple of states.

• 55:17Gemma Bath?

  How cool's that?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  It is pretty cool. It, it was, it already exists like in limited forms in New South Wales and Queensland. But we've got three pilots up, plus every other jurisdiction that didn't have a pilot now has one, but so far they're only providing independent legal advice, which is great. But they still, if we can change legislation, they've got the infrastructure to go further and see it through and provide the representation piece. Um, those pilots are also being used to test some of the other Australian Law Reform Commission recommendations, like justice navigators, or some of them are looking a bit more into restorative justice. We don't have very clear pathways for that in Australia when we know that a lot of victim survivors would prefer that, but don't even know what it looks like.

• 56:02Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Um, so I'm trying to plug some holes at the moment by changing legislation so that those pilots can all consistently provide the same thing to help stop with the confusion, um, for victims who have no idea what's going on, who are navigating a system completely blindly. But also, uh, to help with postcode justice really, like it's not fair that some people have X and others don't. Um, so yeah, things are, are changing and it's, it is slow and it is painful, but I really feel that independent legal representation is

• 56:44Speaker 01

  the closest to like a panacea reform that we'll get in my lifetime. I mean, until we decide to blow up the system and start again. Yeah, yeah. It, it, it really is the big bowling ball that can pick up so many different siloed failures. Like, I mean, our legislation is only as strong as its enforcement mechanisms and like so much of the problems we see, I mean, a lot of them are just structurally, a lot of this problems with the system are structural, they've been designed that way, but a lot of them are about a lack of enforcement. Like there's legislation that is in place, that is not being enforced, that if it were enforced, it would help. And independent legal representation is like the through line for me, in my view.

• 57:26Gemma Bath?

  You've been working on advocacy, working on trying to change the system for, what, four years?

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:32Gemma Bath?

  Did you think you would see such progress four years down the track? There is so much more that needs to be done. But you have managed to help move some major pieces. Did you think you'd see this happen?

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Not even remotely. When I joined the Expert Advisory Group Informing the Australian Law Reform Commission's Inquiry, which in and of itself is like a once in a generation chance for this to be put on the map. So long as things are implemented and don't, you know, it doesn't just join the shelf gathering dust of all the other royal commissions and inquiries and plans. Um, day one, I saw, um, independent legal representation, like on a bullet point, on a list, and expanding it out to the things that it, it has been recommended to be expanded to.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  I, I just wanted to get them a foot in the courtroom because once they're there, like watch the floodgates open. People will see the benefits, like we're saving money, we're not destabilising anything, we're not infringing on the rights of the accused. We are actually contributing to the integrity and efficiency Hmm. of the system. I, I did not think that would happen. I just wanted, I was like, just a foot, a foot in the, in the courtroom and to have that so blatantly and clearly written in a document as, you know, profound as the Australian Law Reform Commission Inquiry's report. I, yeah, I burst into tears when I saw it, honestly, which is really lame, but I was tired.

• 59:10Gemma Bath?

  Sarah, I'm, I am so sorry for what happened to you, but I am so thankful for what you're doing now. Like, thank goodness we have people like you helping to like change the system.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you for saying that. I think I've got to get better at taking compliments. Um, so I'm trying to do that thing where I look at you and I say, thank you. And I, instead of going, oh, no, no, no. But I mean, I really feel like, um, lived experience is the way forward in combination with cross-sector collaboration because, I mean, no one can do this on their own. This is a whole of community

• 59:48Gemma Bath?

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  problem. It requires all of us. It requires immense collaboration. We probably should mobilise the private sector, like the, the failures aren't just failing victims. It's actually the least of it. This is about society and like a civic duty that we all have. So I felt like, um, there's something Saxon Mullins said years ago about, um, you know, her hands were already dirty, might as well keep going. And I also feel that, you know, if not me, someone else has got to dedicate their life or ruin their life doing this advocacy as well. So for now, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep, keep going, fighting the fight. Um, I know that we're getting a little bit closer every day.

• 1:00:31Gemma Bath?

  To reiterate, Joshua was found not guilty by a jury trial. This is Sarah's truth and Sarah's story. And a big thank you to her for joining us on this episode today. You can find out more about With You We Can at the link in our show notes. You can also find a petition to keep counselling confidential, started by journalist and advocate Nina Fennell. Since our interview with Sarah, the New South Wales Government has announced a landmark inquiry to determine better ways to protect the counselling records of victim survivors. A report will be issued in June next year. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

• 1:01:10Gemma Bath?

  It really helps others find the show. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.