Pod Insights True Crime Conversations Inside The World Of A Crime Scene Cleaner About this episode What happens after police leave a crime scene? For six years, Donna Nayler was the person called in to deal with what remained.
Wearing full protective gear, she cleaned some of the country’s most confronting scenes, from murders and domestic violence cases to homes where bodies had gone undiscovered for weeks.
Donna reveals the harsh realities that come with a job few people ever think about and the unseen work done behind closed doors.
LINKS
You can find Donna's book, Bloodstains and Ball Gowns, here https://inhousebookstore.com.au/products/bloodstains-and-ball-gowns-my-life-as-a-crime-scene-cleaner?srsltid=AfmBOoqHpK_Tpi97o-1vFRVb1ZuQI95ZR7pHaTVlGzIxSiPRvz38r4rU.
If you’re experiencing family and domestic violence, Safe Steps provides immediate and confidential assistance. Find out more here https://safesteps.org.au/contact/.
If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636.
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CREDITS
Guest: Donna Nayler
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533976/Host: Gemma Bath https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemmabath/?originalSubdomain=au
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman https://www.linkedin.com/in/tahli-blackman-205a891b7/?originalSubdomain=au
Group Executive Producer: Ilaria Brophy
Video Editor: Julian Rosario
Audio Engineer: Tegan Sadler
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Transcript 0:04 Speaker 00 A warning before we begin. In this episode, Donna describes several crime scenes in graphic detail. The conversation includes references to domestic violence, suicide and the death of a child. Please listen with care.
0:26 Speaker 00 Donna Nayler pulls up in front of a house in Ballina, just below the New South Wales Queensland border. The first thing she sees is a bloody handprint on the front door. Sheets and doona covers have been plastered on the windows to stop the outside world looking in. "If you feel unsafe at any time, I want you to call the police," the officer who lets her in says. She enters, and as soon as her eyes focus on the hallway, she feels a gasp of horror rising in her throat. It looks like five litres of red paint has been thrown down it. Smears made by hands can be seen all along the walls. It's blood, endless amounts of blood.
1:11 Speaker 00 She soon discovers it in every room of the house. In the bedroom, a wooden bed frame lies in pieces on the floor. In the skirting board next to it, a gaping hole. This is a murder scene, one of the worst Donna has ever seen, and she's been hired to clean it.
1:36 Speaker 00 I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. That Ballina job haunts Donna. She can still see the smiling photos of the couple on the fridge, but after witnessing what he did to her in that house, she felt her pain in every room. She thinks of that young woman often. Donna Nayler was a hairdresser on the Gold Coast of Australia for nearly a decade before deciding to turn her life on its head at the age of 25 to become a crime scene cleaner instead. It's a job that required her to walk alongside death, witness unimaginable grief,
2:20 Speaker 00 and see scenes reminiscent of horror films. Some jobs took hours, some took weeks. On occasion, she'd need a month. Donna's job was to make things disappear as if they had never happened. But what she saw while doing that, it's hard to comprehend. Donna spent six years as a crime scene cleaner before making the decision to walk away. She's written a book about her experience. It's called Blood Stains and Ball Gowns. Donna joins us now to take us inside her world. Donna, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Your first career was as a
3:02 Speaker 00 hairdresser. How do you go from hair to crime scene cleaning?
3:08 Speaker 01 It was something that I saw on a TV show when I was younger. It was about a man that was cleaning crime scenes. I'd never heard of it before. I didn't know anyone that had heard of it. And it just sparked something inside me. He had the personality that I do, and he spoke about how much money he made. So I, there were two things that, you know, I like helping people as well, and I didn't realise to the effect of how much I really liked helping people. So I started researching and my career took off.
3:38 Speaker 00 How do you become a crime scene cleaner in Australia? Because you were talking about how it's quite a tight-lipped society.
3:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is. I mean, it's not so much now. A lot more people are doing it. When I started, it was like a secret society. There was only a few of us that were doing it in the whole country. I studied via America. I got people to help me that were doing trainer and assessor to help me learn about health and safety in drug labs, or working at heights, and all of those things to make sure that I was protected and that I could do the best job that I could. Because there was no way to learn unless you were on the job. But I wanted to make sure that I was a little bit ahead of myself.
4:18 Speaker 00 So there's no crime scene in course?
4:20 Speaker 01 No, there's not, no.
4:22 Speaker 00 When you told your loved ones, your parents, your friends, that this is what you wanted to do, what was their reaction?
4:28 Speaker 01 They were all for it. My parents are so supportive. My sister's a firefighter, so it's not like myself going into death services was something that would shock them. I think it was, they kind of had a feeling that I would do something a little bit different.
4:41 Speaker 00 So when you say death services, is that a kind of area that you were interested in?
4:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, always. Growing up, I was interested in being a mortician. I've always, I like the spiritual world. You know, there's just a side of that that intrigues me.
4:56 Speaker 00 Yeah. Tell me about that first toe dip into the world because you called a company and they basically arranged for you to have an interview and see a scene all at once.
5:07 Speaker 01 Yeah. It was nerve wracking, but it was also really exciting. I felt part of the team as soon as I got there. I was seeing people that, I was seeing things that other people weren't privy to at that point. It just created a fire in my belly that I, I wanted this more than anything. You've either got it or you don't. And in that moment, I realised I, I had it and I wanted it.
5:31 Speaker 00 What was the scene that you turned up to?
5:33 Speaker 01 I went to a drug lab in surface paradise. Everybody on that floor had been upgraded.
5:40 Speaker 00 So it was a hotel?
5:41 Speaker 01 It was a hotel, yeah.
5:43 Speaker 00 Wow. And there was a drug lab inside a
5:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, it happens quite a lot.
5:46 Speaker 00 Really?
5:46 Speaker 01 Yeah. So the cleaner passed out and that's when they knew that something was wrong. The gentleman had left their bond, so they'd left a $200 cash bond. They called them to come back and get their bond. So the, the guys came back for their bond and there was five cop cars waiting for them.
6:02 Speaker 00 Wow.
6:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:04 Speaker 00 What does a clean up of, of that kind of magnitude take? Because drugs, I imagine they're like in the walls.
6:11 Speaker 01 It's everywhere. So it is in the insulation, in a roof, it goes into wood, it goes into anything that is absorbent. So basically everything has to be disposed of correctly, but also cleansed to remove the, the toxins that are in the walls.
6:28 Speaker 00 So I'm imagining you have a pretty Hectic outfit that you wear to do something like that.
6:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:34 Speaker 00 What does it look like?
6:35 Speaker 01 Um, I'm covered from head to toe. I have a gas mask on. No inch of my skin is is seen. I've got double gloves on that are taped to my wrists. The white suit on, boots, boot covers, the mask, I've got it all.
6:49 Speaker 00 Because is your safety, is it at risk in this job?
6:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, for that, you've got the the gases. For decomposed bodies, you've got the bloodborne pathogens. I got an, I got it in my eye once.
7:04 Speaker 00 Really?
7:05 Speaker 01 Yes, and my eye is still sensitive. My eye was so red, it was unbelievable. I went to the chemist, went to the doctor, went to the chemist and they said, we've never seen a, you know, something in the eye like this. And I said, I was playing with dead bodies. The look on their face. So yeah, you have to be very careful. That was only one incident that I had the whole time.
7:23 Speaker 00 But it's still bothering you?
7:24 Speaker 01 It's still bothering me. Yeah, I must have just mustard wiped.
7:28 Speaker 00 So we've talked about what you wear, but what do you, what do you bring to a job like this?
7:33 Speaker 01 I have a full truckload. Everything and anything that you can think of, even from a jackhammer through to a tiny toothbrush. It's so wide. I mean, it's demolition as well as cleaning. So you need to make sure that you've got everything that that's there.
7:48 Speaker 00 So it's not as easy as like a spray bottle and a clean, and a cleaning cloth?
7:52 Speaker 01 No, it's, it's hard work, very hard work.
7:55 Speaker 00 Once you have the job.
7:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:58 Speaker 00 What does your like day to day look like? Is it an everyday job? Is it just in, I know you were based in Queensland, or are you being flown across the country?
8:07 Speaker 01 I was flown and I drove around most of the country. So you're on call 24/7.
8:12 Speaker 00 Yep.
8:12 Speaker 01 That's the hardest part. So I could be sitting here chatting with you now, my phone could ring and then I would have to go. So sometimes I'd be at one job, I hadn't even finished it, and another one would come in. Some jobs can take a day, some can take weeks. Everything's so different. So, but I was very busy.
8:32 Speaker 00 You mentioned money. Can we talk money? How lucrative is it?
8:36 Speaker 01 It's changed now. The market is flooded. I mean, it's when I started, there wasn't many of us doing it. So we did get paid very handsomely. It is more well known now. There's an episode on The Simpsons. It's got a crime scene cleaner, CSI. I have a crime scene cleaner come in at the end. You've got the movie, The Cleaner, Sunshine Cleaning. So a lot of people, just like I did, see it and say, I could do this. And so a lot of people do try. So they're on about a quarter of what I was on.
9:04 Speaker 00 Wow.
9:04 Speaker 01 Back then, now.
9:05 Speaker 00 And who, who is paying you? Who are the clients?
9:09 Speaker 01 Well, this was the thing that really shocked me and was quite sad. It's, it would, it would be people like yourself. So if you own a home and something happens in your home, it's, it's the homeowner that, that pays for it. I did do some work with the police. I've done some work with the government as well. Everything is so different, but it's generally the, the families. And that's the hardest to go there, which is why I liked it. You would want me to turn up. Having that hairdresser background, I had the empathy that it wasn't. I wanted to help them to make them, you know, make some part of it disappear. It wasn't just money, but to, to have to say, oh, and by the way, it's gonna cost XYZ is, it's a hard thing to do. They're already going through so much.
9:54 Speaker 00 I can imagine not everyone can afford your service. So what would people do if they couldn't afford a service?
10:00 Speaker 01 So I did have that, I've had that a couple of times. So sometimes they don't have to have us there. It does cause a lot of danger if body fluids are left in, you know, in the house still, it can make people sick. It's not okay. So I would generally clean up what the worst part of it was. And then I would guide them to, when the hazardous was gone, I would, you know, help them restore.
10:23 Speaker 00 But it sounds like, you know, mothers, nephews, aunties are all cleaning up.
10:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:29 Speaker 00 The worst thing they've ever seen because they wouldn't be able to afford someone like you.
10:33 Speaker 01 No, there is though, sometimes depending on the scene, there is victims assist. So sometimes the government will, will help in certain situations. Um, so that bill can go towards myself, the funeral.
10:46 Speaker 00 Tell me about your first official job. It was another drug lab.
10:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
10:51 Speaker 00 What happened? What was, what was the situation?
10:53 Speaker 01 Um, that was, that was a little bit scary. There were some naughty people that were involved in that. Uh, it was a gentleman who was cooking drugs in his house, in his garage. And, uh, he decided to not pay his mortgage. So they came to change the locks and when they did, they saw what they saw. So, um, we got flown up to, you know, take it back over. Um, but he was still out and he was sending people around threatening us. By the end he was okay. Um, there was a hundred and fifty needles that were on the floor that I found. There was a baby that was crawling around. So, I mean, at the end he realised for the safety, it was better for us to, to be there. I mean, he was caught anyway. It wasn't us that caught him. We never worked, I didn't work for the police.
11:37 Speaker 01 You know, I did jobs if they needed us, but I wasn't a part of that. So once he understood that it was safety, but it was pretty daunting and pretty scary to start with.
11:46 Speaker 00 Especially as your first job.
11:48 Speaker 01 Yes.
11:48 Speaker 00 Like as a crime scene cleaner, you're not expecting to come into contact with the criminals.
11:53 Speaker 01 No, but we come into contact with so many people. Um, I mean, sometimes it's comical, you know, the, the people that will turn up and the situations that we get ourselves into. It kind of was a little bit of a light. You'd have neighbours sneaking in the back to try and steal things from, you know, the house. And people are wild, wild.
12:12 Speaker 00 Your first solo job happened to be a murder.
12:15 Speaker 01 It was, yeah.
12:16 Speaker 00 What, what happened?
12:18 Speaker 01 Uh, it was a family that were playing cards, drinking, and it got violent. Um, and unfortunately somebody lost their life. Um, turning up that day, I didn't know what I was walking into. I'd never seen. Or expected what I saw. The scary part for me was they'd put a sheet up. So walking in the room and having to pull the sheet back and seeing what I saw. Um, the stab wounds down the walls and uh, the family that they also couldn't afford to have me there. So the auntie was helping me clean up as well, which was, it was heartbreaking, heartbreaking to see.
12:52 Speaker 00 Because it was her nephew?
12:54 Speaker 01 It was her nephew, yeah.
12:56 Speaker 00 Did you imagine going into this job that you would be dealing with grieving families as much as you did?
13:04 Speaker 01 I think yes and no. It would be naive of me to think that I wouldn't be. Uh, I just didn't realise on how, how much I would deal with them. I mean, in some cases I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't see them at all, depending on the severity of, of the, the crime, especially in domestic violence. Um, sometimes I didn't meet them at all.
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14:08 Speaker 00 I want to move on to another domestic violence murder scene that you attended in Ballina. It's one of the worst scenes you were called to, you write in your book. I was interested to read in the detail. About how you were packing up belongings in the house for him and her.
14:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:29 Speaker 00 So it's not just cleaning, it's
14:31 Speaker 01 No.
14:33 Speaker 00 It's kind of rearranging this house as well.
14:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's depending on with that one, uh, it was so sad. I could see the violence growing as, as I was in the house cleaning. Um, her blood was, was over pretty much everything. So having to, to pack up her stuff and dispose of it as well as his. Uh, it, it's hard. You, you can picture the whole scene that's there. Um, yeah, really, that was a really difficult one, very difficult.
15:02 Speaker 00 Can you describe from the moment you arrived at that house?
15:06 Speaker 01 So from the moment that I, we got to the front door, there was a bloody handprint on the front door. Uh, opened the front door, there was two holes, I can see them now, uh, that were made by her head. Uh, she was the same height as me and then turned down the hallway and there was just blood everywhere. Uh, there was blood up on the ceiling as well, just on the, the force of the, the blunt force trauma that was happening to her. Um, it carried all the way down the house in every single room that she was trying to get away from. She ended up, her bed was broken, but she actually ended up with her head through the wall, down on the, uh, the skirting board and that's where she lay.
15:45 Speaker 00 It's hard to comprehend that level of violence?
15:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. So they had been drinking the night, that night, having a good time. Something must have, must have snapped or erupted. Um, he put her head through the wall, um, and he took a, a, like a, a blunt weapon. And he just started beating her with it. But the violence was growing as it went through the house. She was so close to the front door when it started. And I wish she had just made her way around him somehow and got out the front door. She ended up in the back of the house, so the violence grew. Um, and she was found deceased in her bedroom.
16:25 Speaker 00 So walking from room to room, you could tell what had happened?
16:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, the violence was growing as, as it went through. Yeah.
16:32 Speaker 00 How did that? Case that job affect you.
16:36 Speaker 01 I think about it all the time. Um, it's something that I'll never get over. Um, I look at, I, as we all do, I feel very strongly about domestic violence. Um, you know, if they hit you once, they're gonna hit you again. Don't ever let it, if it happens once, just leave, please leave. You don't want me coming through your front door.
16:55 Speaker 00 No. I noticed in a lot of the domestic violence scenes that you went to, the bedroom featured heavily. Can you talk to that?
17:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's like being in a horror movie. Uh, I mean, it's easy for me to say because I haven't been in that situation. I mean, with her, she was so close to the front door. In most cases, everyone is, the women and the men as well, I went to some that, that was men also, uh, are close to the front door. If you can somehow, somehow get to that front door. Our bedroom is our sanctum. We all, you know, we all feel comfort there. So most people generally end up trying to take cover in their bedroom and they don't make it out. So, I mean, my advice, if, I mean, for as small as it can be and for not being in that situation, head for that front door. Get out, get out.
17:46 Speaker 00 In that job as well, I would love you to tell listeners about kind of the juxtaposition of being in such a violent kind of environment and then kind of looking at the fridge and seeing photos.
18:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're smiling down at you. What, was that weird? What was that like? Yeah, it was. I mean, I would find letters as well. A lot of letters that were written to themselves, to other people, um, you know, saying sorry for certainly the way that they were. Um, but seeing the family photos that were there. I mean, I went to one once where they'd actually turned all of the photos around. So I never saw who they were, um, which was quite unusual, but they, they did that for whatever reason. Um, but it just shows, you know, there's a fine line between love and hate and things can turn so quickly. You've got a happy family that's, that's on a fridge that's no longer.
18:38 Speaker 00 And did you find that certain families wanted different things done with the house? Did some want to reenter, some didn't?
18:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, so, uh, I went to, to one in particular, uh, that it was a suicide and, uh, the, the wife had committed suicide. The children found her. That was one of the hardest things I had to.
19:01 Speaker 01 Deal with for myself that I saw what they saw.
19:04 Speaker 00 Hmm.
19:05 Speaker 01 Um. And I hope they forget it because they were only really young. He wanted nothing, nothing of hers, nothing in the house. He wanted the house gone. There are some cases, depending on culture, that, you know, people can't move back into them. But then I've been at somewhere, the families stay in the home.
19:19 Speaker 00 Hmm.
19:19 Speaker 01 So everybody deals with grief differently. Um. Whatever brings people peace is okay.
19:25 Speaker 00 Another DV case you talk about in your book involved a man who murdered his wife and then dropped his baby at the local church. And once again, the level of violence.
19:36 Speaker 01 Yes. I can't use a particular washing powder because of that story.
19:41 Speaker 00 Why?
19:42 Speaker 01 Um. So he stayed in the house for nine hours after he killed her, cleaning up, getting rid of everything. But there was something that he couldn't get rid of. Um. He had actually gutted her. Um. So her stomach contents were on the floor and he had used washing powder to put over the top of it because it has got a very pungent smell. So there was a pile of washing powder that was in the middle of the floor. Um. As I started shoveling into it, I had a feeling what I was gonna come and come and see. Um. And I can't, I can't smell that anymore.
20:12 Speaker 00 I think what shocked me reading these details is when you see headlines on the news about man murders partner and stabs her to death or something along those lines. It sounds clinical, but hearing your descriptions of what that looks like in a house and what
20:30 Speaker 00 the blood and the violence actually, when it plays out, can be.
20:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:35 Speaker 00 It's really shocking.
20:36 Speaker 01 It's really shocking and we don't hear about a lot of them.
20:39 Speaker 00 Hmm.
20:39 Speaker 01 Most of them don't get, uh, get airtime and they really should, especially suicides. They get zero airtime. Um. And it's a big, you know, it's something that I wish, I wish we were told more about because we need to be educated on it to, to be able to help people.
20:56 Speaker 00 Well, according to kind of recent statistics, there are nine suicides a day in Australia.
21:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:02 Speaker 00 Did you attend many?
21:03 Speaker 01 I attended a lot. Christmas time is probably the worst. Um. I, I did, you know, I think every kind that you could think of, I did. And they were very hard. Um. When you spoke about belongings, throwing out belongings, the hardest thing I've ever had to throw out was a wedding dress that was covered in brain matter.
21:24 Speaker 00 Oh.
21:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:26 Speaker 00 It feels like a strange question to ask, but what is the hardest kind of job?
21:31 Speaker 00 Is it just all of the above?
21:33 Speaker 01 Every, I find it, I've always found that one hard to answer.
21:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
21:37 Speaker 01 Um, you know, what's the most gruesome or what's the hardest? Because to me, a life is a life, no matter the age or um, the circumstance. The ones that I struggle with the most are the, the deaths where they have been deceased for weeks, months, and nobody knows that they're there. And that the loneliness in this world is, you know, it's, it's heartbreaking.
22:00 Speaker 00 Well, let's talk about one of those examples.
22:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:03 Speaker 00 You were called to Brisbane after a 20 year old man, a young man, died from natural causes in a rented property. And he'd been there for days before someone found him. And you're saying that scenario of, you know, natural causes, but then left there.
22:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:20 Speaker 00 Is something that you dealt with quite a lot?
22:22 Speaker 01 A lot of the time. That one was, that was mind blowing. He had roommates. I could like, sorry, sorry guys. I could smell him from the front of the house.
22:31 Speaker 00 But that was still living in the house?
22:33 Speaker 01 They were still in the house. She, the girl was inviting a Tinder date over. I could hear her on the phone while the crime scene cleaners are in the house. Yeah.
22:42 Speaker 00 Did it surprise you how some humans are willing to live this job?
22:48 Speaker 01 Yes, yes. Make sure you clean your house in case a crime scene cleaner comes in. Change your undies in case you get hit by a bus. Clean your house in case a crime scene cleaner comes through. Um, I can spot hoarding houses a mile away.
23:02 Speaker 00 Why?
23:03 Speaker 01 But there's certain aspects to them that once you can see it from the, I can see it from the outside. I just know what's going on on the inside. It's very common. And it's not like the show Hoarders, that's got nothing on what I've got.
23:17 Speaker 00 Can you describe the, the cleanup when a body has been there for a number of days?
23:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:22 Speaker 00 Cause I can imagine that takes. A lot of different products.
23:26 Speaker 01 Yes.
23:27 Speaker 00 A body decomposing, what does that, what does that involve for you?
23:31 Speaker 01 Uh, it would probably be my least favourite. It would, you know, there was mush, there was hair, there was maggots. The smell is like, is unbelievable. Um, I'd wipe Vicks under my nose so that I, you know, had a little bit of freshness that was there. But if, if somebody's sitting on a lounge, it will go through the lounge. Um, so you've got to cut that out because you have to dispose of things the right way as well.
23:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:55 Speaker 01 You can't just throw it in the bin. Um, and then it starts seeping, so. And it will seep up the walls as well.
24:03 Speaker 00 So depending on how long someone is left.
24:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:06 Speaker 00 Is the kind of size of mess you're dealing with.
24:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, it happens pretty quickly.
24:09 Speaker 00 Really?
24:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:10 Speaker 00 It's quite depressing to think about, really, that that's how.
24:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:13 Speaker 00 That's what could happen to our bodies.
24:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is. And especially if you don't, you know, you don't have someone that notices that you're not around. Um, yeah, I, I, that's probably the one thing that I struggle with. The amount of loneliness that's around. If I, you know, especially elderly, I always smile at them now. I'm a better person, I'm nicer to people and I smile at everyone because you just don't know how people are.
24:37 Speaker 00 We've talked about hoarding and I think the details of what that hoarding can look like, the grossness.
24:43 Speaker 01 It's gross.
24:45 Speaker 00 I want to kind of quote you back to yourself, just so listeners can understand what we're dealing with. One line you said that really got to me. We were uncovering nothing short of a rat tomb. Deep under the cupboards were rats' nests, full of dead rats, buried in homes that had been turned into their graves.
25:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:03 Speaker 00 You talk about fly feces covering walls, ground covered in maggots. In one instance, you saw a pot on a stove with liquid inside it, full of newborn maggots. I mean, with all of that in mind. What is the, some of the grossest things? Have I touched on them? Am I even close?
25:21 Speaker 01 Um, probably the grossest in those hoarding houses is when they can no longer get to the bathroom. And so then they decide to go to the bathroom in items or in buckets. For one instance, uh, there was, uh, he had filled the room, um, or filled the whole house. And I didn't realise there was a bucket sitting on top of this pile of rubbish. And I reached for it and it fell and it was, it was his toilet. And it soaked all through this already disgusting rubbish because it compacts. And then it starts, the methane gas that starts coming through and it starts turning to mush underneath. So I had just made sloppy, poopy mess from the top all the way down the bottom. I made my life very hard that day.
26:05 Speaker 00 So you were dealing with this kind of scenario, these hoarding houses where people were living, basically in their own fields. You dealt with this a lot.
26:12 Speaker 01 It was a lot. Yeah. It was one of the most common ones.
26:15 Speaker 00 Wow.
26:16 Speaker 01 Yeah. But there's different types of hoarders. So there's the ones that will just completely trash an entire house. Except for the gentleman I spoke about before, his wife had passed earlier and he left her room immaculate. But he trashed the rest of the house. Uh, but then there are others where they'll be, the house will be bare, but they would have stashed the cupboards. So the cupboards, the shower will be full of items, but the rest of the house is bare.
26:39 Speaker 00 How long do these cleanups take?
26:41 Speaker 01 Sometimes a month.
26:43 Speaker 00 Really?
26:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:44 Speaker 00 For one house?
26:45 Speaker 01 For one house. Yeah. I think what, the most I ever did once was nineteen skip, like the large skip-ins. Nineteen of them, I filled. Yeah.
26:56 Speaker 00 Did this job make you, I can imagine it would make me cleaner in my own house.
27:01 Speaker 01 I mean, look, my parents will probably, and my sister would disagree. Sometimes I can be a little of a hurricane. Um, but I do, I'm a very aware of the finer details in things. So, uh, fly poop, for instance. A lot of people don't know what it looks like. I can spot it all the time. So I always make sure that that's gone or cobwebs or those little things. But I always have clothes everywhere.
27:22 Speaker 00 There is a difference between kind of like clutter and
27:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:27 Speaker 00 dirtiness.
27:28 Speaker 01 Yes. Yeah, there is.
27:29 Speaker 00 Are there any other jobs that you think back on that really stay with you?
27:34 Speaker 01 Oh, I think, I mean, look, all of them, all of them really do. Uh, sadly I did go to a baby murder. And that one's, that one has stuck with me. The people that were turning up at the front door that day. Um, I probably had a hundred cars that drove by that wanted to, wanted to see.
27:52 Speaker 00 Wanted to see?
27:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I never understand it. I don't know what, there was a dead end street and they were driving around because they wanted to see something. I mean, nobody wants to see what I saw that day.
28:03 Speaker 00 Yeah.
28:04 Speaker 01 That one stuck with me. They all stick with me. I'll remember every single, every single person.
28:10 Speaker 00 After the break, I asked Donna, what kept her returning to this work despite the traumatic scenes she witnessed? What made you keep going back? What was rewarding or was it the money? Like what, what made you want to keep doing it?
28:23 Speaker 01 It's a hard thing to say. I enjoyed my job. You know, I got a lot of, um, I, I don't know the correct word for it, but I felt so good after doing it and restoring things back to normal.
28:35 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
28:36 Speaker 01 Um, I liked, I liked helping the people, you know, as I said before, I'd want me to turn up, you know, if anything was happening to my family, I'd want it to be me. So, you know, I, the job satisfaction that I got out of it, I was making a difference. I was definitely making a difference. I think so.
28:51 Speaker 00 You were a hairdresser turned cleaner. I'm interested to know, like, some of your colleagues, how they ended up in, in the job. Do, did people kind of find their way there in interesting ways?
29:03 Speaker 01 I mean, as I said, when I started, there was only a couple of us that were doing it. Um, and it was just something that they had started off, you know, doing a cleaning business, which a lot do, and then kind of branched into it and then would just pull, you know, friends that were into it. Um, I could always take someone to a job with me. So I would take, you know, if I needed to, take a friend with me along.
29:22 Speaker 00 Oh, really?
29:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, sometimes, yeah. They had to have a strong stomach.
29:28 Speaker 00 While working this job, you made a habit to start calling your family every day. When did that start and why did that start?
29:37 Speaker 01 I realised that you just don't know the last time that you'll be able to call them and how important it is to keep that connection going. Um, I still call them morning and night. I've created a little monster in my dad. If I don't call, he thinks there's something wrong. Um, but I do, I always have, no matter where I am, what I'm doing. Um, before I came to see you here today, I called him.
29:58 Speaker 00 Did you? Just to tell him you were all right?
30:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, telling where I was, what I was doing, always, yeah.
30:03 Speaker 00 What has doing that job taught you about humanity and humans and what makes us us?
30:12 Speaker 01 It's it's shown some good and some some bad. You know, there's some really good people in this world and it showed me that there's some really bad people in this world. Uh, if you take accountability for yourself, you know, you can make a difference. Um, being more aware of your surroundings and people that are around you, just being kind, you know, not everyone is kind. I realize that a lot of people are going through things that we don't realize. You know, we think we're having a bad day, our bad day is nothing. I mean, I'm speaking for myself, not everyone else, but my bad day is nothing to what some people go through. Um, so I'm more aware of that. First of all, problems don't bother me.
30:50 Speaker 00 I know we talked about jobs that stay with you, but are there any people, any families?
30:54 Speaker 01 I don't think so. I think they all hold a little place in my heart, every single one of them, for all different reasons. Um, I think I owe it to them to not forget them. So I think probably that's why. Um, I look at them all the same, you know, I that's the way that I had to look at each person exactly the same way. So I think that's why they all hold a little space in my heart.
31:16 Speaker 00 Did you ever have to clean someone's house that you knew?
31:20 Speaker 01 I know I haven't luckily, but I do tell my friends, if certain friends are going and, you know, renting a house um, or staying in an apartment, I did actually have a friend the other day that's uh, saying how excited he is to live in this new apartment that he's living in and he showed this view and I've seen that view before.
31:39 Speaker 00 Oh.
31:39 Speaker 01 Uh, it's not the same room, so I and I would never tell him, he probably will listen to this and he has no idea it's him. But um, I I did a horrific suicide there.
31:49 Speaker 00 Because a lot of these homes are kind of like gutted, repainted and sold, often for cheap.
31:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:55 Speaker 00 Because of what's happened in them. Would you buy one of those homes? Could you live in a house knowing this has happened, something bad has happened?
32:03 Speaker 01 It depend, it depends on what, what it was that had happened and how spiritually I felt in that house.
32:09 Speaker 00 Okay.
32:10 Speaker 01 How I felt in that house. I could feel a lot of emotion, whether you believe in it or not, or how you see it. Uh, it was an emotion, it was emotional to go through that. Sometimes I'd walk in feeling a certain way and I'd leave feeling another. Um, I don't know if I could, you know, I probably couldn't, only because I'm there for the whole amount of time. From the start to the finish, I saw absolutely everything. Ignorance is bliss. So if you don't really know what happened, you could peacefully live there where I would turn the corner and I would still see what I saw.
32:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. Because I know we talked about you living in some of the, or going to some of these houses where, you know, people had died and been left there for days, weeks, but you were also often at houses within hours of, or at night.
32:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:55 Speaker 00 Since a murder. So really fresh.
32:57 Speaker 01 Really fresh.
32:58 Speaker 00 Emotion and, and kind of blood and, and everything. And I can imagine that would be quite.
33:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was. I would always ask to wait until the coroner had gone. You know, I didn't need to see more than what I was already seeing.
33:10 Speaker 00 Did you ever find evidence, ever help police while they were doing these cases?
33:15 Speaker 01 Yeah. So most of the time the scenes were finished. So the police were done and I would just be there to clean. But if I did ever find anything that, um, was of use, I would always pass it over. But most of the time I would find money or valuables. And then I would pass that over to the family, depending on what that was like. Um, a lot of people asked me to go looking for certain things in the house, especially in the haunting houses. So it was like treasure hunting.
33:40 Speaker 00 Yeah. I, another thing that kind of surprised me while reading your book was, yes, you were coming into contact with kind of grieving family members, but also kind of family members there to contest a will or to that kind of thing.
33:54 Speaker 01 Yes, it happened a lot. Um. And it's sad, you know, somebody's just died and they're already, you know, waiting to be there. Uh. There was two sisters at one, one point that I knew because of the nosy neighbor had been cut out of the will. And she was one that I found sneaking in through the back door. I found her stealing two dollars. Like, give it back.
34:13 Speaker 00 While you were there cleaning?
34:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, while I was there cleaning. She then asked for this, uh, this rope that was in the garage. And I said that she could have it, but only because I knew there was a rat's nest in it.
34:22 Speaker 00 So you were like, not just a cleaner, you're a bodyguard, you're a therapist, you're, yeah, all of these different things.
34:29 Speaker 01 All of those things. Some cases I did have to have a, a couple, well, two. I had a bodyguard twice on two different jobs.
34:36 Speaker 00 Can you talk about either of those?
34:37 Speaker 01 Yeah. So one of them was on a, uh, I got flown to Melbourne. It was going to be a movie set. And they, this place that they were having it was full of needles. Um. I probably found about three hundred needles in there, but they needed to stop the users coming back. Um. So that was really interesting and I had a bodyguard with me the whole time for that. Um. The other one was, uh, at, uh, another murder scene. I had someone that was, that needed to be there. Uh. The families hadn't met yet, so they needed to make sure that I was going to be okay as well. So. Cause sometimes they don't, people don't know that you're there. So, you know, tensions run high. Uh. And I needed to make sure that I was going to be okay.
35:18 Speaker 00 When you think back to twenty five year old Donna, who was excited to start this job and had seen it on TV. Was it what you expected?
35:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was.
35:29 Speaker 00 Was it?
35:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was. And I watch that show now and I'm like, damn, I could do that better.
35:35 Speaker 00 Do you kind of, uh, you're out of it now?
35:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:38 Speaker 00 So when you see horrific murders or anything on TV, is that what you think about? Do you think about what's left behind the house?
35:45 Speaker 01 I think about the families.
35:46 Speaker 00 Okay.
35:47 Speaker 01 Um. It's the ones that are left behind that suffer the most, uh, uh, of any scene that we're in. Um. So I, I always think about that. Um. I don't have to pick my phone up anymore when I'm watching the news and waiting for things to happen.
36:00 Speaker 00 So you would watch the news and then you would get a call?
36:02 Speaker 01 I would wait and see, yeah. If, so media get onto things pretty quickly. Um. So, I mean, the dream world, I was actually gonna offer my services for that, the dream world, when I was gonna drive up there that day.
36:13 Speaker 00 Oh, wow.
36:14 Speaker 01 To help them with that. Um, but there were so many that I watched and I think my phone's gonna ring in a minute.
36:19 Speaker 00 And the dream world one, for people that don't know.
36:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:21 Speaker 00 Can you just tell us about what that was?
36:22 Speaker 01 Um, the dream world was an accident that happened on one of the rides that were there. Uh, people were killed, uh, but the scene would have, was horrific.
36:31 Speaker 00 Hmm.
36:31 Speaker 01 The families watched them as well. So I, I saw that and I, I thought I, I need to go help them. The amount of, uh, helicopters and everything that was going on, I thought maybe I should just, just wait a little bit and see if I do get the call up for it. Um, but I, I wanted to help. I didn't want to be paid. I just wanted to help.
36:49 Speaker 00 Wow.
36:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:50 Speaker 00 You really have to have a strong stomach though, for this job.
36:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, you do. Yes, you do. And I, I don't know why, but it, it doesn't af- that doesn't affect me.
36:59 Speaker 00 Really?
37:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, it doesn't af- I mean, I've seen skulls hanging out of the roof with hair still attached and brains still behind a headboard. Um, you know, bodies, the outline of a body moving with the maggots still in it, but it doesn't, it doesn't, I can still eat my lunch afterwards.
37:13 Speaker 00 Really?
37:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:15 Speaker 00 Even hearing about that makes my stomach.
37:17 Speaker 01 But I'm scared of the dark. I'm actually, I'm scared, and I don't like horror movies, but otherwise, I mean, you know.
37:24 Speaker 00 Why do you think that is?
37:25 Speaker 01 I don't know. I definitely, but it was before that. So I would start work really early. I'd go like five AM. The sun had just come up, but as soon as it started getting dark, being scared of the dark and being in a house that a murder's happened and there's blood all over the walls, I'm out. See ya, I'll see you in the morning.
37:39 Speaker 00 Oh, especially cause you did, cause you live in Queensland, you do a lot of jobs in Queensland and the heat, I can imagine that just adds another element.
37:46 Speaker 01 Yes, yeah. And it just makes things go a lot, a lot faster, so.
37:51 Speaker 00 As in like decomposition, right?
37:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, the heat, definitely.
37:56 Speaker 00 Does death always smell the same?
37:58 Speaker 01 It smells a little bit different depending on the person. Um, the smell of a dead body is a smell I'll never forget. Um, it stands, it really does stand out. But each body, each body part also smells slightly different as well. Yeah. So brain has a certain smell, blood has a certain smell, your stomach content has a certain smell. It's all slightly different.
38:22 Speaker 00 I guess you, like, I've never been in a position to ask someone who has smelt it.
38:26 Speaker 01 No, you don't wanna be.
38:27 Speaker 00 No, but you wouldn't think, I wouldn't think that body parts could smell different.
38:31 Speaker 01 No, yeah, it's, to see a body part on the outside of a body where it shouldn't be is, I mean, brain is sticky. It's, it's bizarre to actually me being me being like, I'm just gonna clean this brain off this wall.
38:46 Speaker 00 How do you clean this stuff? Like, are you using bleach?
38:50 Speaker 01 No, I mean, bleach is like the old school kind of way that, you know, killers do. Um, I'm not gonna tell you.
38:56 Speaker 00 Okay.
38:57 Speaker 01 Only because I don't want the wrong people to know.
39:00 Speaker 00 Right, okay.
39:02 Speaker 01 What I would use.
39:03 Speaker 00 That's smart.
39:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, I can make anything disappear, but only I need to know that.
39:08 Speaker 00 Cause I can imagine if you're going into murder scenes, you probably did see people trying to clean up.
39:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, a lot of them did.
39:15 Speaker 00 And not very successfully.
39:17 Speaker 01 Mm-mm.
39:17 Speaker 00 You did this job for six years?
39:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:21 Speaker 00 What made you tap out?
39:22 Speaker 01 I wanted my life back. Uh, you know, I was getting older and, you know, I wanted to settle down a little bit more. Not so, uh, settle down, not in the way that most people would think. I was on call 24/7. I missed friends' weddings, you know, there were certain things in life that I, I wanted to enjoy, my own life. Um, I do miss it.
39:42 Speaker 00 Do you?
39:43 Speaker 01 I do really miss it, um, but I needed to, to start creating a new life for myself.
39:48 Speaker 00 What have you been doing since you left?
39:49 Speaker 01 I'm a hairdresser again.
39:51 Speaker 00 You went back?
39:51 Speaker 01 Yes, I'll always be a hair, I love making people feel fabulous.
39:55 Speaker 00 Is it different going back to hairdressing, having had this kind of interlude, this whole different life in between?
40:01 Speaker 01 It is, and I don't usually tell that many people. I mean, I try, when I was doing it, I would tell people I was an Arnet's biscuit designer. That was my, that was my job because people are obsessed by it. I mean, down the pub, I've got so many stories. I mean, I could gross you all out if I, if I really wanted to, but I'm trying to keep it pretty PG.
40:20 Speaker 00 What are people asking you about? What is the most?
40:23 Speaker 01 I mean, it's always what's the worst thing?
40:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
40:24 Speaker 01 You know, what's the worst thing that you've ever seen? I mean, telling somebody that I, you know, a decomposed body of an old lady being consumed by a ghana is probably not what people want.
40:33 Speaker 00 Oh, my goodness.
40:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:36 Speaker 00 You have really seen the worst of humanity.
40:38 Speaker 01 I've seen it all. I've seen, seen it all. Yeah.
40:42 Speaker 00 Has it affected you?
40:44 Speaker 01 It's made me a better person.
40:45 Speaker 00 Right, but not kind of psychologically affected you or anything?
40:49 Speaker 01 No. And I mean, I know a lot of people will be like, it'll, it'll come back to you later in life. I, I have a different mindset. I, I feel like I always have. Um, I look at life a little bit differently. So I try to take the positive out of things.
41:02 Speaker 00 Yeah. Sounds like it's made you more empathetic.
41:05 Speaker 01 I'm much more empathetic, but it's, I'm much more empathetic, but I'm also a bit more of a hard ass as well. I, uh, when I went back into hairdressing, I went and did a leadership course to try and change, rewire my brain. Because, you know, staff were coming up and, you know, I'm sick today or my dog's ill or I had no empathy for that side of life.
41:25 Speaker 00 Right.
41:25 Speaker 01 And I needed to soften. I needed to soften again.
41:28 Speaker 00 When you've seen what you've seen?
41:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, I didn't care about, you know, I sick hard not.
41:33 Speaker 00 What do you want people to understand about this world? You say that it is kind of a more popular occupation now. But for anyone listening that is intrigued.
41:44 Speaker 01 Yes.
41:45 Speaker 00 What's your advice to them?
41:47 Speaker 01 Eat your breakfast or read my book. If it doesn't make you feel sick, then you could start looking into it. I mean, anyone's welcome to reach out to me to ask questions. I mean, maybe I do glamorize it a little bit. I mean, it is hard work. Um, it's not for the faint-hearted. It's something that will stay with you forever. But if you like helping people, like getting your hands dirty, for lack of a better word, um, then go for it. But it's not, it's not for everyone.
42:15 Speaker 00 And it sounds like it's quite a solo profession. You're often working alone.
42:18 Speaker 01 Yes. Yeah.
42:20 Speaker 00 Thank you to Donna for joining us on this episode. We've linked her book, Bloodstains and Ball Gowns, in our show notes. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.
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