Kristi Locked Up Paedophiles For 10 Years. This Is What She Learnt.

In 2008, Kristi McVee was a new mum flicking through the newspaper when a WA Police recruitment ad caught her eye. Less than two years later, she was sworn in as a police officer. Kristi went on to build a career catching child abuse predators, interviewing child victims and putting their abusers behind bars. But one question kept coming back to her: how do you protect these kids before the harm happens? After a decade in the force, she left to focus on prevention education. Now she has dedicated herself to giving parents and caregivers the conversations, tips and advice she believes will help keep children safe. Visit Kristi's website here. https://www.kristimcvee.com/ GET IN TOUCH Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @truecrimeconversations https://www.instagram.com/truecrimeconversations/?hl=en Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960 MAMAMIA OFFERS: Get access to Very Peri, Mamamia's exclusive perimenopause series, for just $59. 25 world-leading experts, over 20 on-demand sessions, available now. We’ve sorted through the noise so you don't have to. Go toveryperi.com.au http://veryperi.com.au/ today. You hot? Same. Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes. CREDITS Host & Executive Producer: Gemma Bath Guests: Kristi McVee Produced by Ella Maitland Video Editor: Lisa Chen Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Gemma Bath?

  It's a Monday night in 2008 and Christie McVie has just put her nine-month-old daughter down for the night. She wanders into the kitchen to clean up after a night of solids mostly ending up on the floor, but finds herself distracted by the newspaper sitting on the edge of the dining room table. As she thumbs aimlessly through it, an ad catches her eye. It's a recruitment drive for the Western Australian Police Force. "I could do that," Christie murmurs to herself. When she brings it up with her family and friends, they laugh, which only makes her more determined. Sure enough, three weeks before her daughter's second birthday, she's sworn in as a WA police officer.

• 0:45Gemma Bath?

  It's the start of a career built around catching child abuse predators. But as Christie dedicates her work to talking to child victims and locking up their abusers, she finds herself pondering the same question over and over again. How do I protect these kids before the harm? How do I stop these kids becoming victims in the first place? I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. It's a question that eventually saw Christie leave the police force after a decade of

• 1:26Gemma Bath?

  service and turn her attention towards prevention education instead. Because in her role as a detective, she was helping kids who'd already been hurt. In the career that's followed, she became determined to stop more of them getting to the point of needing police intervention in the first place. Christie has dedicated her next chapter to creating the conversation, the tips and the advice she thinks all parents and caregivers should be armed with. She's confident they'll help keep our kids safe. Christie joins us now. Christie, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations.

• 2:09Gemma Bath?

  So becoming a police officer, was that the plan from early on or what did you want to be?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  No, I had no... Well, I grew up in rural Western Australia, like country, country, in the middle of nowhere basically, and I had no plans. I used to think that I wanted to be in the air force. I wanted to be a fighter pilot because I watched Top Gun or... You know, I had lots of pets, so I wanted to be a vet, you know, all of those sorts of things. No plans to be a police officer, never.

• 2:36Gemma Bath?

  So when did that come up?

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Well, it's really wild. So I become a parent, I have my daughter, I've been with my husband for, you know, 12 years. We were high school sweethearts, we got together at 15 and then, you know, get married at 19, 20 and then our daughter comes along when I'm 26, 27. So, you know, been together a while and I see an ad in the paper, the local newspaper.

• 3:02Gemma Bath?

  Like the classifieds?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Well, pretty much. It was like this whole page or maybe two-page ad about, you know, we want females and we want female police officers, you know, there's working, work-life balance, there's all of this stuff. And I'm like, oh yeah, I could do that. I don't know, having kids makes you think that you can do anything, I think. And I was like, I've just, you know, had this child, I can do this. I don't know what was going through my head, but she was nine months old at the time and I told my family, I told my friends and they all laughed at me thinking I was joking. And I think that was kind of gave me the push because I was like, just watch me. So, I mean, I'm five foot one, so it's pretty funny really when you think about it that

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I was pretty short, not really the typical police officer look, but yeah, I got in.

• 3:52Gemma Bath?

  Well, you became an officer when your daughter was two?

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:56Gemma Bath?

  Tell me about that first job. Was policing what you expected?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Well, I was, I was, yeah, lucky enough to go back into rural Western Australia. So I did my academy training in Perth, six months in the city, and then I moved to Caratha, which is in the Pilbara. And my first week on the job literally was different to what I thought. Like, it's, I think every, every person, every recruit thinks or has an idea of what it should be or what you think it's going to be, but nothing prepares you for that first week of like actually being out on the road and dealing with, you know, people in those moments, in those high-pressured moments and how you might react to that. Nothing can prepare you, even the six months in the training in the academy.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  And so my first week, I was dealing with domestic violence situations the first night and then I was dealing with assaults and evidently like I had a child sexual abuse case that first week as well. So, you know, when you work in rural, you know, rural spaces, you're dealing with everything, traffic accidents, traffic, you know, you're giving out tickets, you're doing RBTs and talking to people who have lost kids, you do everything in rural situations. So that was the first week.

• 5:16Gemma Bath?

  Did you know, once you'd been in there for a while, that you wanted to move into detective work?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yep, pretty much within the first week.

• 5:23Gemma Bath?

  Really? Why?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  I had this case, so being a probationary constable, I was predominantly under a senior constable who was like my mentor. And this one day, they were short-staffed, so I was left in the office and I had to answer the front reception desk and anyone who came in. And this, within minutes of my shift starting at seven o'clock in the morning, someone came in and they'd been assaulted. And I took her statement, I took her to hospital, I then went and collected evidence from where she was assaulted because she'd been assaulted on the side of the road by a family member and the person had used the mirror in the car and hit her over the head with it.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  And when she got out of the car to run away from them, you know, they'd left the evidence on the side of the road. So I took the forensics officer out there all on my own on this, like first week of being in the... Yeah, first week. And I did all of the case file up and then charged the offender and everything like that with the help of my mentor, but I'd done all of that preliminary investigation work myself. And then I was like, because the detectives were going to take the job off me and I was like, no, I want to keep this, thank you. And, you know, I was a little bit like, why should you get all the work? I've done all the work. And so, yeah, I knew straight away. I was like, I want to be a detective, I want to do the big stuff. So, yeah.

• 6:47Gemma Bath?

  What about that focus that you came to have on child abuse? When did that passion come up?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Well, I got it asked, the reason why child abuse became so, such an important part of my career is because within the first week, as I mentioned, I had a child abuse case where I had, was the first responder to a child who'd been sexually abused on a sleepover. And she'd gone to her best friend's house and had been sexually abused there by another party, another male who'd been at the house. And, you know, I think that was a bit of an eye-opener as a mum of a two, three-year-old at the time. And then, you know, as I progressed, I'd been in the police for about nine months and the detective senior sergeant at my station said, would anyone like to become a specialist child interviewer?

• 7:37Speaker 01

  And I put my hand up, but he said no originally because I was only a probationary constable, hadn't been in the job long enough. And in the end, no one else put their hand up, so he sent me along to this training. And the training was for three, four weeks and I had to leave my daughter at home with my husband and, you know, support at home. And I went and did this training and I realised how prevalent it was and how, and I was, I'm so grateful now for having that training then when my daughter was so young. But I, I think we all know that it's an issue, but we don't know how bad it's an issue, how bad it is. We don't realise how prevalent it is. And so I go all the way to this training, I come back and then my whole career shifted

• 8:18Speaker 01

  because as being one of the only trained interviewers at the time, I was sent all over the Pilbara to interview children. So I was working alongside the detectives, you know, being flown to places to be able to interview children who were, you know, 300 or 400 kilometres away. Or there was an operation where child abuse detectives came up from Perth to go and interview children in the community because of a paedophile ring. So I was part of that team who was interviewing children day in, day out for a week. And so I realised that, how important it was very early on, not just because I had a young daughter, but because it was so important, the work that we were doing was so important.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  It's like literally protecting kids from abuse. So I think that was pretty much what got me across to the point where I was like, I want to focus on this.

• 9:10Gemma Bath?

  What were the biggest challenges you found interviewing children? Because you would have been talking to kids of all different ages. What were the challenges there?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  The challenge for, for anyone who works in that space is that obviously I had a young daughter, so I would, I would have cases with children the same age as my daughter. By that stage, my, my daughter was in her, she was a three-year-old, going on to four, you know, so I was now reassessing everything that I knew or had, didn't know really. I was reassessing who was safe and unsafe in her life and, you know, there's some cases that were really close to home, like made me feel like, well, who do we trust with our kids? Thankfully, I also learnt a lot about how to protect kids and, you know, all of these things. But also the parts that were really hard were that there was children who were being abused and they didn't feel safe to disclose.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  So therefore you can't help them in that moment because, you know, as a police officer, really the only way to investigate child sexual abuse is if there's evidence of child sexual abuse and it relies heavily on the victim's disclosure. And if there's no victim disclosure by a child, then there's no, literally it's like...

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Insufficient evidence and next. And so, you know, you can tell sometimes that a child's being sexually abused and that they're not willing to say anything because, you know, there's certain terminology that they use that they shouldn't know about, or they've disclosed to someone else that they felt safe to disclose to, but they didn't feel safe to disclose to me. And so it's really hard because it really does hinge so much on a child's disclosure, yet we don't actually uh put very much weight in children's words and disclosures anyway.

• 10:59Gemma Bath?

  Were there any personality traits that you kept seeing coming up again and again with these kids?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no.

• 11:06Gemma Bath?

  All types.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  All types of kids, all types of families, all types of situations, all types of communities. You know, I've worked in uh all rural Aus- Western Australia, but it, you know, also in Perth, in um other areas. And it's really not one type of family, one type of child, one type of anything. I mean, there is some thing, you know, it really depends on the offender too. So if the offender is a family member that, and they have very easy access to the children, then it can be really um, it it's not like they've gone and they groom the adults, they get access to children. But if it's someone who's outside of the family, someone who's like a co- coach or a teacher or um, you know, a public figure in the community,

• 11:52Speaker 01

  then there's different methodology that they use. But it's all very similar. They're grooming adults before they groom children to get access to children. So I don't think um, we don't, like, people like to think, oh, not my family, not my community, not my place. But I can tell you now, I've seen every type, and I believe it would be in every family, especially because the Australian Child Mouth Treatment Study says that one in four adult Australians has been sexually abused. And so the research shows that one in three girls and one in five boys will be sexually abused before eighteen. And with that research, that means one in four children. Um, and that's the reason why it's not just one type of child, one type of perpetrator, one type of anything.

• 12:34Gemma Bath?

  Those numbers are really gross, aren't they?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  They are really gross. One in four children, yeah. And so we've got an issue. And I, it's, when I first uh was dealing with this, no one talked about it. But we're seeing it coming out in the media, we see it in um our, we're having conversations, like, when I first started talking about this outside of the police, you know, I had two people show up to a, an event. Now I have hundreds. So it, to me, it's, it, I feel like we're winning because we're now raising awareness. This is not something that people wanted to talk about. They were uncomfortable with it. I have seventy year old grandmothers and, you know, people coming up to me and saying, I've never told anyone that I was sexually abused. And so the fact that they're now disclosing is amazing. But sadly, most people, the average length

• 13:21Speaker 01

  of time between abuse and disclosure is about twenty four years.

• 13:24Gemma Bath?

  Why is that?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  I say this all the time. Children need to feel safe to disclose. And if they don't, first of all, if they don't understand what's happening to them, which happens a lot with young children, very young children, if they don't know that what's happening is abuse, because a lot of, a lot of little people um are groomed to believe that it's a game, it's how I love you, if, especially if it's someone close to them. And, or it's, you know, if you don't do this, I won't do this. So there's a lot of, you know, mind games and grooming going on, and the person abusing children is orchestrating it. You know, they're, they're cultivating the experience so that it gets, gives them easier access. So the reason why a lot of people, and I have this in my own um DMs and things like that, when

• 14:11Speaker 01

  I talk about this stuff, I have people go, I didn't even realise I was being abused.

• 14:16Gemma Bath?

  Because I've seen you say that abuse doesn't always hurt.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 14:21Gemma Bath?

  Which got to me, because that's what you think when you hear the word abuse.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 14:25Gemma Bath?

  But sometimes it might feel good, and that's really confusing.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And I did have, you know, some of the saddest cases were of, you know, boys and men who'd been abused because they had been tricked into, you know, being abused by someone, and usually a male, but I have had some cases with female perpetrators. And, you know, the male was like confused, especially when they got, went into the teenage or their teenage years, puberty, because they might have been abused as a young boy um by, say, for instance, a, an uncle or a family member. And then they get to pu- puberty and realise they like girls. And so it really does a number on their brain. Or, you know, they, they did enjoy what happened to them. And same with girls. Um, but, you know, like

• 15:11Speaker 01

  the, the fact is, it do- it doesn't always hurt. And, you know, because it doesn't always hurt, and because sometimes the offender who's abusing them makes it pleasurable, and it's fun, and it's how I love you, or how we, this is what we do, then it can be quite confusing when they get older.

• 15:30Gemma Bath?

  Let's talk a bit more about offenders. Is there a certain profile or a few profiles of who it could be?

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so research shows, and I saw this um quite common in the offenders that I dealt with. So there's technically, or research shows there's about three offenders. There's the persistent offender, so that is, they're most likely, or um most, they're the most common um offender in that they are, are attracted to children. So they don't really can't, the reason why it's called persistent is because they don't have, usually have uh relationships with other adults. They, they're very much fo- focused on children. And so they, and I don't, look, I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, like, they, they have the best um explanation of this. But what I saw is, is they don't usually

• 16:22Speaker 01

  have relationships with adults. They do, they put themselves in positions where they can be around children. Uh, and so we're looking at people, one of the offenders that's popping into my brain right now is he became a carnival rider um operator. So he was around children twenty four seven because he was a carnival ride operator. Or they're, they're coaches, or they're officials in sports, or teachers, or whatever.

• 16:47Gemma Bath?

  Care teachers.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  And potentially, yeah, e- early childhood educators. And so um, you know, they're, they are interested in children, want to be around children, and will abuse children. And, you know, the research shows that they're most likely going to offend against boys. And so, which is really interesting.

• 17:04Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, that is interesting.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  And that, to me, is, you know, because when we think about uh offenders, we think white van, flashing kids, giving out lollies, kind of thing, right?

• 17:16Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, stranger danger.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Stranger danger, which we were all forced, like, it was, you know, the belief that our parents had, so that's what they taught us. Don't take, I remember my mum, I was five or something, walking down the, our street. She's like, don't take lollies from strangers. But, you know, it was more likely to happen from one of my uncles or a, a friend that they invited into the home. You know, over ninety percent of um offenders is someone the child already knows. So, you know, it's not going to be a stranger. There's still that risk, yes, but most likely going to be someone our child knows. So that's the first one, the persistent offender. And then the second offender is opportunistic. They're, they can have a relationship with a, an, an adult, they can have their own children

• 17:58Speaker 01

  and families, but they then um, you know, have abused children. And that is the most common offender, actually. So, you know, they are more likely to be in positions of power and authority. They have uh, you know, family networks, they've got friends, you know. So I think a lot of us in our um, our conditioning or beliefs, we believe that sex offenders don't have anyone. They're, they're loners. They sit in their little creepy bedrooms, you know, probably looking at um wacky things on the internet. But, you know, really, the, a lot of offenders are normal people who have families, who people trust that are, you know, I have this saying, it's not everyone, but it can be

• 18:40Speaker 01

  anyone. And, you know, opportunistic offenders are that. You know, they um, if they don't have their own children, they're very close with children somewhere in their lives. And if they do have their own children, they're possibly abusing their own children. And so opportun- opportunistic offenders are the ones I saw the most. And then there's the situational offender, not attracted to children, but if the situation enables them, they'll abuse them. Situational offenders are more likely to be more violent.

• 19:06Gemma Bath?

  Oh.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  And there is some, so the thing is, is that there's no one type.

• 19:11Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  And there's no one um offender that is going to come into your home and abuse. It could be, literally, you could have, no three of them, and they could all be different types. So the situational offender is much more, uh, I, much more about control. So they fe- they feel out of control in their lives, they feel out of control in their marriage, their marriage might have broken up, they're, they might have lost their job, and then all of a sudden they're offending. So it's not like you can actually guess who they are. But what I have found is that if there's domestic violence within the, the relationship or the family, or the person is, believes that they own their family or own the person, or they have a right to do that, then they, then that can be one

• 19:53Speaker 01

  of the um abuse types that they then do if they're already offending in another way.

• 19:59Gemma Bath?

  I think that the thing that depresses me about those descriptions is, in my head, I'm always trying to work out why. Like, what makes an adult want to do something like that to a child?

• 20:13Speaker 01

  I know.

• 20:14Gemma Bath?

  But hearing your descriptions, like, I, I just feel like it's, it's probably a lot of reasons, and it's really hard to kind of.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:22Gemma Bath?

  Pinpoint one.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 20:25Gemma Bath?

  Coming up, Christie tells us about the court system and the reality of cross-examination in child abuse cases.

• 20:34Gemma Bath?

  You know the drill. You pick the couch, pay the deposit, then wait twelve weeks, praying it matches the living room. Let's skip that. Mamma Mia is giving one lucky subscriber a five thousand dollar voucher for B two C furniture to spend on pieces that are in stock and ready to ship right now. High-end style, zero weight. To enter, head to mamma mia dot com dot A U forward slash subscribe. You'll unlock all our subscriber only podcasts, articles and our fitness app, Move. Already subscribed? You're already in the running. Offer ends October 31st. T's and C's apply. We've talked about how prevalent child sexual abuse is. And then on the other end, when kids go through the court system,

• 21:19Gemma Bath?

  there's some of the lowest conviction rates, aren't they?

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's horrendous.

• 21:23Gemma Bath?

  How low?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  My good friend Andrew Carpenter will tell you that it's less than 1%, under 0.01%. It's like, it's, you know, three out of every hundred cases or less than, you know, so, or three out of every thousand, I think, so.

• 21:39Gemma Bath?

  But how disheartening was that for you as a child abuse detective, trying to lock people up?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  It's why I'm no longer in the job, because at the end of my career, I realised that I wasn't actually protecting kids. And it's not because I wasn't trying. And the people who work in that space try so hard to do their job. And, you know, but there's so many restrictions to what they can do. You know, obviously, we've got the law and the legislation that we have, and we have the, you know, the burden of proof that we have, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this has happened. And if there's any doubt in the jury's mind or in the judge's mind, then there's not going to be a conviction. And there's so many ways that children can be manipulated and the evidence can seem like they're not telling the truth

• 22:23Speaker 01

  because we don't believe children. In fact, there's research or Australian Bureau of Statistics said that only one in three adults believes a child when they tell them they've been sexually abused.

• 22:36Gemma Bath?

  But how common is it for a child to fabricate something like that?

• 22:39Speaker 01

  It's less than 5%. And if they are fabricating it, it's because they have been coached to do that. And but unfortunately, our society believes that children are coached all the time. They believe that children say that all the time. And in my experience, and we know this through research, but it's less than 5%. And if they do recant, they're, if, because kids will, you know, kids are looking for safety. I mean, that is, you know, before anything else, children, and this is the hardest thing about what I did and the cases I saw, and also now since leaving, you know, people disclose to me all the time. They're telling me about their stories all the time. One of the biggest things that children look for is safety. And if there's no safety in their home,

• 23:23Speaker 01

  then they are not going to disclose. And even if they're sat across the table from a police officer. Because when they go home, they're not going to be safe. And we take that for granted. And if we're not safe adults for our kids, or if we're not being the safe parent, or, or one of the other things I say all the time is, is kids won't trust us with the big stuff if we don't, if they can't trust us with the little stuff. So if we're the parent that overreacts to spilt milk, or we're the parent that's always telling them off or nagging at them, then when something bigs happens, they might not feel safe to come to us and tell us. And then how do we protect them? I mean, most parents don't give birth to a child and think, oh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna get angry when you get, you know, like, you won't put your shoes on and I'm gonna start yelling at you.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  And I mean, don't get me wrong, like, there's so much pressure on parents. I'm, I'm the parent, I know what it's like. I have, I'm not perfect by any stretch, and my daughter will attest to that, you know. But when it comes down to it, you know, in the moments that it really mattered, I would say to her, you know, nothing you can ever do or say will ever make me stop loving you. I might not like your behaviour, but I will always love you. And anything that you ever want to tell me, I will always be here for you. And I said that thousands of times over the course of her 18 years. And, you know, and there was times that she has had to come to me when, when she saw porn for the first time. And, you know, it was an accidental thing. And she was completely disgusted. She was 10 at the time.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  And, you know, she came straight to me and told me. And so the thing is, is that we want our kids. And I know that parents are sitting there going, but how do you talk about all of this stuff? And how do you, but no, we don't want our kids to learn this stuff from someone else. And we don't want them to go somewhere else. And most kids will go to their peers first. And that's not a great place to learn about things or keep safe, because peers don't give good advice. You know, other kids don't give good advice usually. And there's so many other factors. But yeah, it's really important that we keeps our kids close and we talk to them about everything.

• 25:23Gemma Bath?

  But I can imagine even if you've got a safe parent,

• 25:28Gemma Bath?

  going through those court processes is the opposite of safe for a child. You put on cross-examination, there's scary people in the court, like, it's almost, like, how are little kids supposed to get through that system?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it can take years, like some of the cases.

• 25:43Gemma Bath?

  And they don't have the memory banks to.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  That's why they won't interview children under three. So one of the biggest issues I have, and I understand it from an evidentiary standpoint and from a legislation standpoint, but we don't interview children under three because they don't have the memory. You know, a child under three can forget about it within a couple of years. And if it takes 18 months, two years, they might not be able to be cross-examined by the defence. Because they might not even remember it in two years' time.

• 26:13Gemma Bath?

  But if an under three-year-old is abused, I can imagine that would still affect them in life.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. The body remembers. And in fact, you know, it's a, it's a hard one because there's a lot of parents out there, like, we know that our child's been abused. They've forgotten about it. What do we do about it? Do we tell them later in life? Because their body is gonna remember.

• 26:36Gemma Bath?

  What do you say?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  It's really a personal decision. It's, I, I don't know what the, the answer is to that. Because, you know, some kids, some adults, you know, like, this is the crazy thing about child sexual abuse and trauma, is that some people will suppress that for their whole lives until they have their own kids. And then all of a sudden, bam, it comes back. Because the brain is so good at protecting itself. And so it'll protect the memories, it'll hide them away from you. And a lot of people reach out to me and they're like, I've just remembered that I was sexually abused as a child. And, you know, my, I didn't remember until now. And I'm like, have you got kids? Yes. What age are they? And it's usually around the same time your child gets to the age you were abused.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  And or as soon as you have children, because you realise how innocent you were and how unfair it is that someone did that to you.

• 27:30Gemma Bath?

  I've heard you say that you think child sexual abuse or sexual abuse is as, is as bad as murder in terms of what it can do to a person.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  I do. I do believe that because it is a lifelong thing that have to continue to try and heal from. Some people never heal from it. You know, it can be, it can be a lifetime sentence for a victim. And I've seen that.

• 27:55Gemma Bath?

  I want to talk about a few of the cases you were involved in. It's interesting, we were just talking about under threes, because you worked with a four-year-old who'd accused her dad of abuse. What did the court processes or the police processes she was involved in look like for her?

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was an interesting one. And I look at it, I look back on it and I go, like, we were so lucky that he eventually got convicted. But, you know, when mum first came forward and reported it to police, which she did everything right. A lot of parents have had their four-year-old disclose abuse and they've like literally shut it down and basically not protected their children. And I've seen that a lot. But this mum did the right thing. I actually happened to not be in the, in that case office at the time. But two years later, when I was there, she rang back and said she remembers some more. And so at the time she reported it, police interviewed her.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  She was only four years old. She disclosed abuse and the investigators at the time wrote it off in sufficient evidence.

• 29:02Gemma Bath?

  Really?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so this is, this is the part that really breaks my heart, because there's a lot of parents out there who do the right thing, report it to police, hope the police will do something about it. And then obviously, there's certain investigative restrictions and things that happen. You can't, you know, prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. So then obviously it's written off. And that person then walks on with their life and gets on with their life. And in this case, that father just, you know, he was no longer welcome in the home. He just got on with his life. But two years later, mum rings up, I happen to answer the phone and she says she remembers more. I said, let me get your case file out of archive. I got the case file out, I watched the video and I was like, why didn't we charge him? Because there was enough.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  And so I then re-interviewed the children and interviewed extra people involved in the case and then interviewed him. He denied it, of course, tried to blame someone else in the family. You know, tried to put the, you know, put us off, which he did in the first case as well. But in the end, I charged him with her abuse. The DPP went, it went all the way to trial and he got found guilty. The sad thing is, is that, you know, no one believed her in the, like, no one did something about it in the first case. But there was, and even the DPP prosecutor said to me, oh, there was enough the first time. Why didn't they do something about it? I'm like, I'm questioning this as well.

• 30:25Gemma Bath?

  Is it because it's so hard?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Oh, it's also because it really does take, like, people who understand, like grooming. And, you know, this person was really good at, you know, deflecting and putting off the scent. Like, he was really good at lying. And so even through the interview that I did with him, he convinced the person who was sitting with me that, you know, it was someone else in the family and I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't do that to my child. But, you know, some of the, the things he was doing is, you know, every time they had another child after the little girl. And, you know, mum was going off to doctor's appointments and, you know, shopping and was always constantly offering to look after the little girl on his own.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  And, you know, she would get back from the shops and he would have been in the shower with her. And, you know, like, they were gone for half an hour. There was no reason to have a shower in the middle of the day. And the little girl was displaying sexualised behaviour, talking about things that she shouldn't be able to know. And, and again, like, this is very common. Mums and dads or, you know, when some, when a little person's being abused, they have things, they know things that they shouldn't know. And they talk about things that they shouldn't talk about. And so that's always a really big red flag that something's going on. And, but mum didn't know enough. And he was being the perfect partner. So it was kind of, until she said directly to mum,

• 31:49Speaker 01

  you know, dad's done this to me. And she was four at the time. He never saw her for, after that. So, you know, when she came back two years later and was able to disclose more, because she was remembering more of what he'd done to her. And so, yeah, he was, he initially got six years for that.

• 32:06Gemma Bath?

  Wow. I say wow because like. That feels like a lot in terms of, it doesn't, but in terms of what perpetrators normally would get in our system, unfortunately.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I I don't know if most people know this, but if someone pleads guilty within the first, you know, before trial, they get a twenty five percent, um, you know, discount in their pen- penalty or like their their sentencing. And then, you know, so unfortunately, and then there's cumulative charges. So if there was multiple children, you know, whatever, but this person um also happened to have a criminal record prior to that, so and had done something similar prior to that, which no one had told this mother. So she didn't even know she was with someone who had that history. Yeah, it's crazy.

• 32:56Gemma Bath?

  It is.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  And like families hide all of this from people. And I know, I realise the why, you know, there's a lot of shame and a lot of things. But I think he really convinced his family that he was this, you know, he wasn't who he was. And this is the thing that really gets to me is that we have people who were charged with these offences or or, you know, accused of these offences. And all of the family around them go, oh, but they wouldn't. But that's because you see that side of them. You're not a child. Good, good people can do bad things, bad people can do good things. And so bad people who do harm children can also be the good guy that you see every Saturday helping you out. And they can be the person that makes you feel feel like you're special.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Bad people do good things every day to make themselves, that's why they get away with it, because they always make everyone believe that they're the good guy.

• 33:48Gemma Bath?

  What about the case you did with two sisters aged nine and seven? That was one of the last cases you did, wasn't it?

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Exact, that was the last interview I did.

• 33:57Gemma Bath?

  Why?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Because I still have nightmares about it because of what those little girls had gone through. And I interviewed the the oldest sister first and she was being abused by her mum and her stepdad. Or both the girls were, and they were finally safe, they were all right with their dad and his new partner. And they had disclosed that they'd been abused in in at the at the mum's house. And I just, yeah, the words that they said to me, the things that they knew and the horrible things I'd been through. When a female perpetrator abuses kids, it's usually, um, it's horrific because female perpetrators are much more sadistic.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  And they tend, there's, there's lots of emotional, psychological abusing involved. And, um, you know, there's a lot less nurture involved. So it can be, um, yeah, what what she did to those little girls was horrendous. And like, sometimes when I lay in bed at night, I can't stop hearing what they say, what they said to me. So, you know, that's, I knew that when I did that interview, that that was the last interview, because I couldn't do it anymore.

• 35:10Gemma Bath?

  Wow.

• 35:12Gemma Bath?

  And female perpetrators are fairly rare, aren't they?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  About ten to twelve percent.

• 35:17Gemma Bath?

  Okay, that's a lot higher than I was expecting.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Mm hmm, yeah, ten to twelve percent. Uh, like I said, they're a lot more sadistic, a lot more, they they hide behind nurture. I had, I um had a victim reach out to me, he was abused by multiple female offenders in his childhood. Uh, they tend to, there's a lot of uh emotional, psychological abuse, but there's also a lot of mental health issues usually with the offender. Um, they get away with it because, you know, we don't expect female offenders.

• 35:46Gemma Bath?

  No.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and female offenders can, it can you sometimes start with a partner or with the the, you know, one of the cases I had in the child abuse squad was a a dad who was abusing his daughter. But he, um, the mother used to just go, I don't want it tonight, and tell him to go to the daughter. But yeah, that these sorts of things do happen. And unfortunately, you know, and the other, I had a young, a guy speak to me about his abuse. Like I was saying, three or four offenders in his neighbourhood, these women would uh babysit him. And so then they were, you know, he was being groomed and abused from about six years old. And so he was, you know, sent to these houses because mum needed to break or mum needed to go to work or whatever.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  And these women would abuse him, they used him like a toy. And so it can be really sadistic, really hard for the per uh for the victims. And a lot of the times, he tried to tell a male football coach and then at at about ten, eleven years old. And the male football coach was like, and I, again, this was back in the seventies, eighties, was like, oh, look at you go, mate. Like, didn't even think, you know, like.

• 36:55Gemma Bath?

  Oh, treated it like it was a good thing.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's the other thing about, um, you know, when it, when it's a female perpetrator against a male victim, society treats it like it's a, they're heroes. And it's, it's just, it does not matter whether you're a male or female, or it it's not okay.

• 37:14Gemma Bath?

  I know that last case was the one that was your final out. But doing this day in, day out, how did it psychologically affect you?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, um, so I did that final interview and I ended up having to take some time off. And I went to my doctor, my G P, and my G P said to me, Christie, you've got P T S D. And I, it hadn't occurred to me, like, I know that sounds stupid, but like, I was having panic attacks before work and I was stressed. I was fully anxious all the time and I was not being the best partner and wife and mother. And I didn't even occur to me. And then I go to my G P, she says, you've got P T S D. I break down, I go home and tell my husband, I I ring my best friend and I, and then I speak to my, at the time, eleven and a half year old or nearly twelve year old, and I say to her, mum's not doing so well mentally at the moment.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  And her words to me were, I don't want you to do this job anymore, you're not the mum I remember. And so, yeah, massive. So I literally, the next time I was at work, I I resigned. And I ended up leaving ten years and one day after I started. So I wa, I pushed out my retirement for about two months, which they were like, would you leave already? And I'm like, no, I'm staying until.

• 38:32Gemma Bath?

  Until I did it.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah, and you know, like, I, I felt like I failed. I felt like a failure because I felt like I was letting all of those kids and all of those people down, all of those parents, all of those people down because I left. And I literally remember saying, you know, I felt like I was such a failure for leaving. And that is what, that's what my anxiety, my P T S D told me, like, it was, it was horrendous. That first six months after I left, my mental health was so poor, there was times I didn't want to be here. The only thing that's kept me was my daughter and my husband. And so, you know, the, the thing is, is that I do this now because I don't want parents to go through those.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  You know, I don't want parents to not know what I know. I want parents to be able to pick it up or at least, you know, if something does happen, they're there, ready to help their kids because a lot of kids that I saw had no one.

• 39:34Gemma Bath?

  Well, it's pretty telling that it could affect a child abuse detective this much. You know, like, that shows how horrific the stuff that you were dealing with is.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:45Gemma Bath?

  I hope you don't look at what you did for ten years as a failure anymore.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  I try not to.

• 39:49Gemma Bath?

  Because think of all the hundreds of kids that you helped.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  I hope so, I do, you look, I I, it's not just the kids, it's the adults, it's the parents. There were so many parents and adults that, you know, they felt like they'd failed their child. And, you know, my biggest thing to any parent who goes through this or any family that didn't see the warning signs is that, you know, these people are so sneaky, so manipulative, their grooming tactics are so that they can orchestrate uh opportunity to be alone with children, you know, parents don't see it in their own partners. And, you know, families don't see it in their own children. And the thing is, is that it can happen to anyone.

• 40:26Gemma Bath?

  Up next, Christie explains how she transitioned from policing to parent education.

• 40:36Gemma Bath?

  How did this next chapter of educating parents, how did that evolve for you?

• 40:42Speaker 01

  So before I left in that case with that little girl, it was like literally my last police case that I was, I went through court with. And I remember, I've got a photo that I posted and it was me literally in about to go in and give the evidence. And I was packing my dax, like I was so scared because it, I've, like, when you go into court, and I know a lot of detectives, police feel this way, but when, when it's a child's life on, it felt like everything was on my shoulders. And I remember just thinking, if I, I hope I haven't failed this family, like, I hope I haven't failed this kid. So I was talking to the mum after that case and when we'd won. And she was like, oh, Christie, I just wish I had have known what to watch out for. I just wish I had have had you to remind me, like, this is what we needed to keep an eye on.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Because I'd heard time and time again, the same types of things over and over and over again by kids, by families, by parents, about what what they did to groom them. And I was like, how does, how does everyone not know this? And so what happened after that is, is I I said to my best friend, I think I might write this down. And she's like, yes. My greatest, she's my greatest um supporter of everything I do. And so I started writing down the story, which is what I, you've read a bit of. And so I started writing it down and then I realised that there was a book. And and here we are, six years later, I just started talking about it on social media. And, you know, it's grown to the point that I travel Australia talking about it.

• 42:09Gemma Bath?

  Do you find that there are kind of two schools of parents particularly though? I can imagine there'd be people, well, like me, that are like, tell me all the things, give me all the knowledge.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yes, a hundred percent.

• 42:18Gemma Bath?

  And then others that are like, do not talk to me about this thing.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want to be scared, yeah. Yeah, there's definitely that, that, because, so a lot of parents are like, okay, give me all the things. I want to know everything because I want to be prepared, I want to be ready. And then there's the ones who are living in denial that it doesn't happen, it won't happen. And I think it's just different personalities, basically. But the one thing I know is that not talking about it doesn't protect anyone.

• 42:46Gemma Bath?

  No, well, let's give some advice.

• 42:50Gemma Bath?

  Let's start with what predators would look for in a victim, because there are a few clear indicators.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, the odd person likes to argue with me over this, but you know, in, in general, they're looking for um families that are really, uh, so families that are naive or, or vulnerable. So for instance, a vulnerable family might be someone who's going through a marriage separation, or they're, um, you know, they've got a lack of time with their kids because they were both, parents are both working. Everyone has to work now, or they just don't um have that awareness around grooming. There's research, in two thousand nineteen, there was research from uh somewhere in Queensland, that they went into a prison and spoke to child sex offenders and said, what was the reason you didn't abuse a child? And eighty-four percent of the time, or eighty, the, the stats are eighty-four percent was

• 43:38Speaker 01

  uh reluctance from the child or non-compliance of the child. So the child put up a resistance, or the child said, that's my privates, or we don't keep secrets, or whatever, or basically walked away from the person's grooming tactics. The fourteen, or sixteen percent, should I say, was that the parent of a protective parent. So between the child and the parent, there is so much you can do to keep your kids safe, and, and they do look for kids that are naive. Um, you know, they don't have a protective parent, or at least one protective parent in their lives. They look for people who, or children who are maybe a little bit shy, um, maybe, I, I saw a lot of kids that were abused, maybe they didn't have anyone to talk to.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Or maybe this person who came into their lives was like really, really good at making them feel really special. And so children laugh, like, children just wanna be loved.

• 44:30Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter where it comes from. And if you're really good at, you know, making kids feel special, which for me is a little bit of a red flag, but you know, I'm, I I think there's a way to do it safely with proper boundaries and respect, and then there's a way that's like literally lacking boundaries and respect. So you know, there's um, yeah, so children are looking for love, but this person's, they're willing, um, they, they're always the first person to offer babysitting, they're always the first person to offer uh nights out with, hey, go and have a special night out. They, they're really good at what they do.

• 45:05Gemma Bath?

  And is that, is that what you would describe grooming of the parents?

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:09Gemma Bath?

  That like, I'm really helpful?

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Yes, correct. And like, they, they, they're grooming the parents, so they might even just have a relationship with the parents for a while before the ki- because this is another wild concept, not all offenders uh will offend against every child. So some offenders, they might not be old enough yet. So for instance, they might see a six-year-old as not attractive or not, you know, that they won't harm, and then they get to ten and now they will offend against them. I've seen that happen too.

• 45:37Gemma Bath?

  Gross.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  So you might have someone in your life for quite a few years that hasn't seemed creepy or icky or whatever, but they're close to the family and they're friendly, and then all of a sudden your child gets to the age that they think, oh yeah, this is the age I'm into. And then they'll offend against them. And that is like completely icky feeling, but at the same time, I've seen it happen. So it, it's really wild that, you know, you can't really tell because the person themselves is probably in denial until it happens.

• 46:07Gemma Bath?

  So what does grooming of a child look like? Because I think that's the part that is the most insidious, because we can teach kids anatomy.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:15Gemma Bath?

  Like, that's a fairly tangible thing, but how do you teach them grooming tactics?

• 46:20Speaker 01

  So it comes down to how it feels. So grooming feels good. So I'm getting attention, I'm getting treats, I'm getting, we're keeping secrets. Um, so it feels good at first, it feels like I'm special. And then what happens is it starts getting a bit icky in my tummy, or makes me feel uncomfortable or feel unsafe. So we need, how we teach grooming to children is, we don't even talk about grooming, we talk about early warning signs in our body that something doesn't feel good anymore. We talk about, and how I taught it to my daughter from as young as three is, what does it feel like when you feel happy and safe? And she would say things like, it feels warm, I've got, my heart feels bigger, I feel good, uh, I wanna, you know, I feel special.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Yep, that's great. Okay, what, what does it feel like when you feel unsafe in your body? I get butterflies in my tummy, I can't speak, I feel sick, I want, you know, I wanna go to the toilet. These are all unsafe feelings, they're gut feelings, right?

• 47:15Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  But we call them uh um early warning signs to kids, because when they feel early warning signs, whether it be for something safe or even, because sometimes, you know, coming on a podcast, talking about stuff, there's, there was a few like little nerves there and it made me have like butterflies in my tummy. That's my early warning sign saying, I'm gonna be doing something that I'm, uh, you know, something new.

• 47:35Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  And so we do get those feelings.

• 47:37Gemma Bath?

  And they can be good.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  And it can be good. So we call those, um, you know, risking on purpose, or fun to be scared. So, so they're safe at one end, unsafe at the other end, and then there's risking on purpose and fun to be scared. Because sometimes a child going down a slide could be fun to be scared, or it could be risking on purpose, doing something fun that makes me feel scared at the same time. And kids sometimes like that feeling. Other people, hey, there's no way I'm jumping out of a plane. I know some people love that rush, but you know, that would be risking on purpose or fun to be scared as well. So you know, it depends. And so we teach our kids, okay, what does it feel like to feel unsafe in those, that moment? And so for a long time, my daughter would be like, I've got, I feel sick. I'd be like, okay. She was only three, four, five, six, okay, what is your stomach, like, what is your tummy telling you?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  You know, we would use very simple language, is it something that's making you feel scared or unsafe? Or is it something that you're doing that's, you're about to, you know, is it a fun to be scared moment? And she would be able to say, oh, it's because I have to talk it out loud in class. Okay. Well, sometimes we do things that makes us feel scared, but it's not really scary, it's just something we're doing, we're risking on purpose. And so we can teach kids that, because what an adult will do, or what a perpetrator will do, is that they will start testing boundaries.

• 48:53Gemma Bath?

  Hmm.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  And so what they do first is to test a, a child, is if you, they do something like ask for, ask a child to keep a secret about something small, like this is just our little secret, I've given you a treat, you know, like, this is why I get so grumpy about, you know, anyone who asks a child to keep a secret. Adults are adults, you are, should be accountable and responsible for. If you give your child a treat, or if you give another child a treat as a grandparents like to do, and say, don't, don't tell mum and dad, well, guess what, you're an adult, be responsible for your se- be, be responsible for your actions and your behaviour, and if your kids are not happy with you for giving the treats to the grandkids, well, that's on you.

• 49:31Gemma Bath?

  Own it.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Own it, and move on. Like, the ki- grandkids don't deserve to have to hold that secret for you. And so but with regards to secrets, like, they'll test them with a secret and see if the child says anything. And then if the child tells mum, that's not a person that I'm gonna keep continuing to groom. Or I might test them with a touch that, and do they move away from that touch?

• 49:53Gemma Bath?

  I was just thinking of like examples that former child abuse victims have told me. So things like perhaps that person always makes them sit on their lap.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:03Gemma Bath?

  And that would make them feel

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yucky.

• 50:05Gemma Bath?

  yucky in the tummy. Or perhaps they make them keep the door open while they're going to the toilet.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:10Gemma Bath?

  And they stand there and watch. Are they the kinds of examples where a child could say that makes me feel a bit icky?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, they could say, I don't like it when um Auntie Christie comes, like, I'm just using myself as an example. I don't like it when Auntie Christie comes in whilst I'm having a bath.

• 50:26Gemma Bath?

  And these are all boundary pushing, this is before we even get to abuse.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah. And so one of the things that I saw a lot of perpetrators do is walk in on children while they're changing, or when they're in bathing situations or toileting situations, forcing children to um, you know, take them along with them. One situation where like a child, they're at a party for a three-year-old, and the three-year-old needed, like, was forced to go to the toilet where they were abused. You know, they didn't even want to go to the toilet, but before the parents could even look around, the, the child was off with this person in the toilet and already. And abuse takes thirty seconds, like, we think that it can be long and, and you know, but the touching of a private part or the, you know, the further offences, or the harder, like, the more in- intense offences can take seconds. So it's like, it doesn't mean that, you know,

• 51:16Speaker 01

  it's not that we have to watch every second of everything, but we need to, our kids need to know that when something doesn't feel right, and someone doesn't make them feel right, it's okay to come and tell me, I'll always believe you.

• 51:26Gemma Bath?

  How early should we be having these conversations?

• 51:29Speaker 01

  I don't think there's any age limit to this. Like, I feel like for a newborn, we can be talking, uh, you know, and this is the thing, bodily autonomy is something that we didn't have.

• 51:39Gemma Bath?

  No.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I didn't grow up with bodily autonomy, I didn't grow up with being asked for consent, I didn't get told. You know, I was, I grew up with you're seen and not heard, you don't talk, talk back to parents or adults, you know, you always do what your teacher tells you. And I get that some parents are worried about giving children too much choice and autonomy, but the thing is, is that it is the one thing that will, like, predators are looking out for. If a child will go along with what's said and done, and will always do what they're told, that's like literally their, their easiest target. So when I, my daughter was young, I didn't know any of this, but one of the things that I have I recommend for newborn parents and parents of young children is always describe what's happening.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  I'm just putting cream on, I'm just gonna change your nappy, I'm just wiping.

• 52:25Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  You know, like, describe what's happening to them, because it's their body and they just need, and then what that does is, is it sets a precedent that my safe adults will always tell me what's happening to my body and why it's happening.

• 52:37Gemma Bath?

  And also that those particular touches are familiar and have words.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yep, and they're normal, like, they're not something that's happening without someone explaining, you know, and don't get me wrong, like, pro- abusers and offenders can explain what they're doing as well, but they will gamify it and cha- and make it look like it's care. Whereas though, when your child gets older, like, I was starting to teach this to my daughter at three, when I knew about it. But I've seen two-year-olds be able to, like, those are my private parts, you can't touch my private parts. And, or, no, and like, I, I tell this story, um, when I present to um organisations and parents about my daughter was four, and I'd been teaching her uh like body safety, and I'd been talking about early warning signs, I've been talking about your private parts, you're private, no one's allowed to touch them, et cetera.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  And she came home from daycare and she was like, mommy, a little boy wanted to look at my privates today. And of course, what do, like, I, I think a lot of parents are like, oh my gosh, what do I say? And I just said, okay, tell me more about what happened. And so she said, and she goes, oh, I, he said, tried to push into the toilet and said, um, show me your private parts. And she said, no, they're my private parts. And then she said, smell my feet. Because she was like, I, and I said, oh, wow. And I said, what happened next? And she's like, oh, he went, ooh, gross, and ran away. And I said, why did you ask him to smell your feet? And she goes, I don't know, I just wanted him to stop annoying me, like.

• 54:04Gemma Bath?

  It's pretty clever.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, very clever. And the thing is, is that uh, mum just messaged me the other day, beautiful parent who unfortunately her child had been abused as a young child. And she's been teaching body safety to her since. And she said to me, you wouldn't believe it, I walked into her kidney room the other day and I heard her say, stop touching my bum, that's my private parts. And then she walked straight over and told the teacher exactly what we want kids to do. We want them to identify that it's not, you know, they don't even have to verbalise it to the other child. They can just walk away and go and tell someone. And that is what we want kids to know. We want them to know their rights, their body safety rights. These are my private parts, this is my body, the mouth is a private part, by the way.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  You know, when we talk about the mouth being a private part, it's like, we only use it for food. No one's allowed to put things into your mouth and you, you know, et cetera, so.

• 54:55Gemma Bath?

  Cause I can imagine for an adult that's a perpetrator, that's a really sneaky way.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 55:00Gemma Bath?

  To get around it.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, very sneaky. And that's why it's really important that we include it in the, the, you know, our education with our kids and awareness with our kids, you know. We only put um, food and medicines in our, um, you know, in our mouths, nothing else, no private parts, no other, other body parts in our, in our mouths.

• 55:20Gemma Bath?

  So what are the signs that our child has been abused or might have been abused that we should be looking out for?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so for most little people and for older kids, it's, it's that awareness of something that's probably not age appropriate. So they might talk about sexualised behaviour or they might simulate sexualised behaviour. So, you know, most children will at some point in their toddler years find their genitals and it's quite interesting and everything's funny, like but, you know, poo and butts and stuff like that. And that's very normal, normal, normal sexualised behaviours. But it's when they're harmful sexualised behaviours, so they might stimulate sexual um, type involvement. They might include another child, so they'll, they'll touch other children or get children to touch them. They'll talk about games that involve their private parts. And so a, a lot of children that are under five will do that.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  And parents will be like, oh, where did that come from? Sadly, a lot of people go, oh, it's just kids being kids. But the thing is, is we don't know that until we actually think, like, ask the child or, or, you know, sit with it a bit longer and, and pay attention. Is there someone else in the family who, or in that child's life who's, you know, getting them one on one? Sometimes children, because, you know, like this person's treating them in a special way sometimes. And it's, and you know, it's special time for them. Like I said, not all abuse hurts, so it could be like the child is really upset when they leave that person or they're really upset even going near that person. So it's not one way or the other. Uh, it's different behaviour, like they, they suddenly act differently. Some children will start bedwetting all of a sudden if they have been toilet trained.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  They might start bed, bedwetting, uh, soiling their pants. Um, there's a, there's a range of ways that kids can display when they've been abused. And, you know, if we don't give them the words, like, these are my private parts, no one's allowed to touch, take a photo, video of my private, we had to add that in, like, in the last couple of years. Like, we talk about the fact that no one should take photos of our privates or we don't take photos of other people's privates.

• 57:19Gemma Bath?

  Once again, it's.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  We've got such a huge um, issue with child exploitation in Australia that, you know, we need to include that language. And, you know, like, people say, oh, but you can't talk to a two-year-old like that. Well, why can't we? Because it's not language, we're not saying abuse.

• 57:34Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  I never spoke about abuse with my daughter until she was older. And I never, you know, I used to say to her, it, you know, it's okay to say no to tickles, hugs, uh, cuddles, sitting on someone's lap, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. And, and then, you know, she would say, stop it, I don't like it, with her hand in a stop sign, right? And then by about eight years old, she said, stop it, I don't give consent. And so she was really, like, who's gonna keep going if a kid goes, stop it, I don't consent to you touching me?

• 58:02Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Like, not.

• 58:03Gemma Bath?

  And she knows the word consent.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  I know.

• 58:06Gemma Bath?

  They're gonna back away.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Well, hopefully, I mean, look, a few years ago, um, she was in year eleven and she said to me, mum, I'm the only one in my friendship group that hasn't been sexually abused. There were six girls in her group. And so she was really, like, shocked by that. And I was like, how did this all come about? And she goes, oh, because I found out what you did. And they were all just like disclosing. And I said, oh, how do you feel? Like, that's a lot. And this is the thing, when our kids get older, pre-pubescent, pubescent age, they stop turning to us and they start turning to their friends for advice and help. And, and a lot of the disclosures I got initially were come through friends. The thing is, is that you wanna be the person your child can come to when they don't feel safe,

• 58:50Speaker 01

  when someone's acting inappropriately, uh, you know, when they do something that makes them feel scared or, you know, whatever it be.

• 58:58Gemma Bath?

  When your daughter told you that, that the rest of her friendship group had been sexually abused, how did that make you feel? Cause I can imagine, working in this world, that was something that was in the back of your head as a bit of a paranoia.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 59:09Gemma Bath?

  That might happen to her.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Big time, yeah. I, I'm not, I'm no way think that my daughter could be immune to it. I mean, anything can happen to anyone. And that's one of the things, one of the facts that I had to come to groups with is that just because I'm a protective parent and just because I try really hard, doesn't mean it can't happen. Uh, so when she told me, I was like, whoa. Like, this is, first of all, like, okay, I, we did good because it hasn't happened yet. And it has, and you haven't been through that situation. But um, at the second thought, I was like, that's so sad. Cause so many kids probably didn't have the same education, awareness, all the same, you know, conversations with their parents.

• 59:49Gemma Bath?

  Do you believe in family safety words? I've seen that going around a lot.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, if necessary. I, my daughter and I uh, would practise, like, for instance, if she came up to me and asked for a sleepover and she, cause sometimes, like, you've got to know your child, right? Like, most parents know their child the best, but sometimes, you know, they might hang around kids that maybe they don't wanna be, like, they're stuck in that friendship group with or whatever. She would always go, I need to ask my mum if she wanted it, if she didn't wanna go for a sleepover. And that was code word for me going, or, or, you know, uh, or if she didn't wanna play date or if she didn't want this kid to come over, she'd go, I have to ask my mum. And that was code word for, can you find an excuse not to do this? And then if she did want it, she would ask directly. So those were the kind of things that um, we worked out.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  But code, code words, emojis, like most kids have phones these days and, and check in. I think it's really important that you work out what your family needs and you do it. Like, when my daughter first went to the beach for the first time on her own with her friends and, you know, she was about thirteen and all the kids were going and she was like, mum, I really wanna go. And of course, I grew up, or I was a detective, I was like, but I had to at some point let her have some of that freedom. And this is the thing, there's, you can't stop everything, but you can prepare them for as much as possible. And so I was like, okay, yep, I'm gonna drop you off and I'm gonna pick you up. And you're going, but what will you do if someone makes you feel uncomfortable on the beach? What will you do if anyone's acting inappropriately and you don't wanna be there anymore?

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  And so we just came up with code words and, and emojis and like, you know. And she was, I think, cause she was confident that, you know, like, she knows what her body, like her rights and she knows that she doesn't have to put up with things. So, you know, some of the conversations I had didn't even involve child sexual abuse. It was like, what do you do if a friend makes you feel uncomfortable or does something that doesn't make you feel right? What if you do, and we talked about coercive control, like, in a friendship setting. Cause some kids force kids into doing things, like, from a very, like, eight-year-olds, nine-year-olds, ten-year-olds. They're like, you need to do this, otherwise I won't do this with you.

• 1:01:56Gemma Bath?

  Yep.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  And so I used to say, oh, guess what, that's not a really good friendship, um, that's not being a very good friend, is it? You know, that, when someone makes you do something you don't wanna do and they, you know, tell you they won't do this, that's actually not good friend, being a good friend. And so we were talking about coercive control before and she never had the actual idea of what that was.

• 1:02:15Gemma Bath?

  What it was.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, until she got into the later years and I was like, well, that's actually coercive control.

• 1:02:21Gemma Bath?

  But it sounds like you let her go on sleepovers, so you're not anti-sleepover.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  I'm not anti-sleepover, I'm anti-sleepovers without safety. You know, who's gonna be there? Are there, is there drinking going on? Is, who's gonna be monitoring the children? Do they have devices after dark? Like, do they have to hand in their devices? You know, like, the thing is, is that sleepover, you know, there are some really safe people. It was when I came out of the police, cause when you're in the police, you deal with five percent of the population ninety-five percent of the time. So you get jaded, you get, you know, you don't have very good thoughts about people and you think everyone is in the same boat. But really, there's a lot of good people out there and a lot of good families, good friends. And it wasn't until I came out of the police and I got out of that environment, I was like, huh, actually, there's some good people out here.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  And so I was an anti-sleepovers, I just wanna know who's gonna be there? Is there any older siblings or younger siblings, like, who's watching the kids? Is there gonna be supervision? Or if it wasn't safe or I didn't think it was safe, I'd be like, oh, hey, not this weekend, but next weekend, come to my house.

• 1:03:25Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Because I, I ensured it, yeah.

• 1:03:28Gemma Bath?

  What about social media? Kids' faces? No, no.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:03:32Gemma Bath?

  No, not at all?

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Well, not today, no. Uh, with A I the way it is and, you know, like, I had a predator, like an offender who was a registered sex offender, who had pictures of, random pictures of kids on his phone and devices. Cause he just mined them off social media and, you know, got them off dancing, uh, you know, groups and gymnastic clubs and stuff like that. Like, he literally had pictures of clothed children on his device. And I said, what are you doing with all this? And he goes, it's not legal to be a creep. And he's a hundred percent right because police can't do anything about, you know, non-abusive videos and images on them. If, if it's not child exploitation, what are they gonna charge him with?

• 1:04:13Gemma Bath?

  Cause they're just normal photos.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  They're just normal photos. And now we've got A I who can turn it into whatever you want. So, you know, one, it takes one image. And if someone wants to turn that image into, and before I left the police, we had, and this is, I stopped sharing images of my daughter a long time ago, but, you know, back in the day when Facebook came out, um, you know, we didn't think about these things. And most of us signed on for social media, not realising just how little uh, control we have over it. You know, when we sign to say, hey, like, I wanna join social media, we're giving away all rights to everything that we post on there. And that includes our images of our children. So I have this rule and it's called the dinner table rule. And if someone doesn't, wouldn't, if I wouldn't sit down to dinner with them, with my family and have a meal with them,

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  then they don't deserve a photo of my child.

• 1:05:02Gemma Bath?

  Because I was gonna say, what about if it's a private account? But you wouldn't invite every single person in your private account to dinner?

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  No, not well, and we used to collect Facebook friends and people on Instagram. Like it was lollies, right? We used to like, how many more people can I get? I went through a massive cull on mine and like I've literally got just people I would sit down with now. So don't Facebook refer and request me.

• 1:05:27Gemma Bath?

  Because you'll get denied.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  No, it's just, it's just really important that, you know, we understand that, you know, being free, social media is like, we are the, we are the commodity of social media. So therefore we need, if you want to have some control over what happens with your data, you need to be intentional with it. And the other thing is, is that until a certain age, we can't ask for consent from our children to post. And I teach consent and I talk about consent and I talk about bodily autonomy. So how can I say, yes, post your photos of your kids? When, you know, we can't even ask them. And, you know, when my daughter got to an age where I could ask her to even take a photo, I'd be like, is it okay if we have a photo together? And she'd be like, yes or no? And then I had to respect her, what she, sometimes she went through the phase where nah, everything was no.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  And so I just had to respect that, that was up to her. And then, you know, is it okay if I post this to my friends? And she'd be like, yes or no? So that's, you know, that's me respecting her bodily autonomy and her choice.

• 1:06:28Gemma Bath?

  This work you're doing, how does it compare to policing the police world in terms of?

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Gemma Bath?

  How it's making you feel?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, I was in Port Stephens on the weekend and I spoke to over a hundred people and I got some amazing feedback from families who were considering things differently. And what I do now is I'm prepared, like I'm making people aware enough to make changes that will make a difference. Whereas in policing, I felt like I just came in and cleaned up after the fact. There was no prevention in policing and it's not their fault that that's the way it is. But that is exactly how it is. They can't prevent things because they're out there trying to help people after something's happened. And so especially with child sexual abuse. And so with regards to what I do now, I can share what I know and I can hopefully make people aware enough

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  to make changes, be more mindful, be more intentional, have those conversations that matter, those body safety conversations, have conversations with their kids, have more connection with their children so that they're the ones teaching their kids, not, you know, peer porn predators.

• 1:07:37Gemma Bath?

  Oh, that's a delightful triple P, isn't it? What do you want parents, grandparents, adults? What's the one thing you want them to take away from this conversation?

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  One of the things that I want adults and parents to take away from this conversation is that it's in every family, every walk of life. Don't think that just because you don't know about it, that it hasn't happened to your family or someone in your family. Because the thing is, is that a lot of people haven't even told anyone that they've been abused because they haven't felt safe to. And it, it's so hard to come forward, you know, adult survivors. We, we constantly say to people, why didn't you tell anyone? It's impossible to tell someone some of the worst things that have ever happened to you. And I sat across the table from some heroic victims over the years, you know, adults and children. And it was horrendous for them to share that story, you know?

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  We can't expect people to come forward if we're not willing to listen and we're not ready to hear it. And so most people haven't come forward because we haven't given them space to.

• 1:08:41Gemma Bath?

  Well, hopefully if we keep having conversations like this, more people will feel safe.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  I hope so. I really want everyone's children to go through life without abuse if possible. But if they do, unfortunately, you know, are a victim, that we can get it quicker and we can get, help those children get healing and protection sooner. And that's, you know, we can't guarantee that we can make children abuse proof, but we can do our best to help them when, if, if and when something happens as well.

• 1:09:11Gemma Bath?

  Thank you for your knowledge.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Thank you for joining us. Thank you.

• 1:09:16Gemma Bath?

  Thank you to Christie for joining us on this episode. You'll find a link to Christie's website and all her resources in our show notes. If this conversation brought up any issues for you, contact Bravehearts, an organisation dedicated to the prevention and treatment of child sexual abuse on 1-800-272-831. If you want to report child abuse, the Child Protection Hotline is a 24/7 service and is available on 13/21/11. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.