The Overnight Daycare ‘House Of Horror’

For years, parents trusted David Tuck to care for their children at Bluemoor Family Day Care in Batemans Bay on the NSW South Coast. Decades later, the full extent of his abuse is still emerging, with Tuck now believed to have more than 55 victims across multiple states. He died in 2001 before police could bring him to justice. In this episode, survivors Laura-Jane and Hailey share their story, while also examining the failures of local authorities and the failures of the Australian Government and our justice system to keep kids safe from predators. Sign the #Keep Kids Safe petition here https://www.change.org/p/keep-kids-safe-overhaul-australia-s-early-childcare-industry. LINKS If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Contact Full Stop Australia https://fullstop.org.au/ on 1800 385 578, 7 days, 24 hours. GET IN TOUCH Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @truecrimeconversations https://www.instagram.com/truecrimeconversations/?hl=en Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960 Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes. CREDITS Guests: Laura-Jane Phoenix and Hailey https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533976/Host: Gemma Bath https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemmabath/?originalSubdomain=au Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman https://www.linkedin.com/in/tahli-blackman-205a891b7/?originalSubdomain=au Group Executive Producer: Ilaria Brophy Video Editor: Julian Rosario Audio Designer: Tegan Salder Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Five-year-old Hayley and seven-year-old Laura Jane are happily playing with toys at Blue Moor Family Daycare in Batemans Bay, on the NSW South Wales south coast. It's a centre that offers overnight services to parents and takes kids up to 14 years old. It's pretty remote, run from the family property of the only carer there, David Tuck. He's a jovial man in his 30s, charismatic and approachable, and Hayley and LJ's parents feel comfortable leaving their kids in his home. But within hours, Tuck will start grooming them. They realise he has some pretty unusual rules, like an open door policy for the toilets

• 0:48Speaker 00

  and no underwear while sleeping. The girls also quickly realise that every night, someone sleeps in the big bed with him. Soon, it's their turn, and at first, they think it's special to be chosen, lucky. It takes just one night for them to realise the truth. I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. A warning: this episode does involve discussion about child sexual abuse and suicide. Please take care while listening.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  For years, parents trusted David Tuck to look after their children at his family daycare service in Batemans Bay. It's only now, decades later, that the extent of his horrific abuse is being revealed, earning him the title of one of Australia's worst paedophiles.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  He was aged between 32 and 37 when he ran the centre between 1994 and 1999, and it's believed he had more than 55 victims. He also had access to children across his career, running school holiday camps, in youth detention, as a gymnastics instructor, as a school bus driver for intellectually disabled children, and as a carer for intellectually disabled children. He lived and worked across not just NSW South Wales, but Victoria, Queensland, the ACT, and South Australia. The true extent of his victims is unknown, partly because he died in 2001,

• 2:35Speaker 00

  just as police were starting to catch up to him. This isn't just a story about Tuck and his crimes. It's also about the failure of local authorities to take allegations seriously. Our guests today are currently in court with Eurobadala Local Council, trying to hold them to account for allowing him to operate in the first place and for so long. One of the other big glaring failures is the fact David Tuck's name was suppressed and shrouded in silence for years. That was changed in 2025, thanks to legal blocks overcome by journalist and victims advocate Nina Fennell and news.com.au.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  Laura Jane and Hayley were just two of Tuck's victims. This is their story.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  LJ, Hayley, thank you for joining me on True Crime Conversations. You told your story publicly for the first time just last year. Can you tell us about why and how you made that decision and what it's been like since sharing your story?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  We made the decision to come forward in the media because we had not been able to say our abuser's name for over 20 years. Helly and I had many discussions about the fact that he'd never been named publicly in the media and we decided that it was time. We wanted to reclaim our story and part of that was naming him, not just for us but for all of his survivors, so that they'd never have to, they'd never have to type his name into a Google search and nothing came up.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  To even be able to say his name, you had to go to court, didn't you?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  We didn't. There was some historical suppression orders which were lost, I guess, in decades of no one speaking out, but the journalist that we worked with, Nina Fennell, was able to navigate that and realise that, you know, they were no longer in place.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  What has it meant to be able to say the name David Tuck publicly? Has it made the difference that you were hoping, being able to say his name?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Definitely. I think since we did our first article around 12 months ago, we've connected with numerous other victim survivors and this is not just from the childcare and the experience that we had, but previous victim survivors of his as well. And I think that's huge. For LJ and I, growing up, I mean, I know myself definitely tried to at least read about or understand my own story and understand if there were others involved and it was not possible. So I think the closure that's hopefully given to others who maybe don't want to speak out themselves, but at least can understand that they're not alone and there are others

• 5:48Speaker 02

  that are supporting them and understand what happened with the childcare, what happened, you know, with him committing suicide. These are all things that unless you remained in the small town or with a connection in that small town, that information just was not available to the wider community or to the remainder of his, you know, victims.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  Why? Why was none of that online?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  As far as we can tell, um, and I guess from speaking to Chris Graham, who was the editor of the local newspaper at the time, is that essentially the, the council played a significant role in ensuring that his name wasn't mentioned in the paper and he wasn't publicly identified. As to why, I can't tell you exactly, but I can tell you that it caused a lot of harm. Um, and it meant that many victim survivors potentially up until last year didn't even know that he was dead.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  There's not even photos, is there? There's not like a recognizable photo of him.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  That photo, um, that you see in the newspaper is a photo that I happened to stumble across in my, not even my mother, my grandmother's photo albums. And it's just one random photo with him in the background. And we've, not only us, but our current affair and Nina Fennell searched high and low, and we have still not been able to locate a photo of him.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  To explain to listeners, it's a photo of, of, of LJ in, in the foreground. And then in the background, there's a boat and he's in it. And it's, it's not even his face. It's kind of the back of Hidden and almost a side profile, but you, you can't see anything.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  He's literally in the background as far as you can go. Like he's just a tiny little like blur on a boat, really.

• 7:34Speaker 00

  And that's the only photo you can find.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. And let's put it this way. We are aware of close family friends. We are aware of family members that we personally, as well as others assisting us have reached out to directly that will not share photos of him. Um, the police department will not release any mug shots of him. Now, he was charged with crimes, so yeah, there must be mug shots that exist. Uh, there is a large group of people still protecting his identity for some reason, uh, to this day.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  The mind boggles as to why we are protecting this person.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  And I think it's just, there's no understanding, maybe from the families as to why we need this picture now. But eh, you know, I guess to make it clear, not every one of his victim survivors will have known his name. Or his full name. Now, putting that image out there, and we know that he abused children as young as two years old. Now that, putting his face out there and connecting it with his name, once again gives every one of his victims that opportunity to go, oh my goodness, that is the man, that is the man that harmed me. And they can then, from their understanding, you know, he is dead, we have named him and identified him.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  It's just, I think for us, that really big, missing piece of the puzzle is showing everyone what this guy looks like.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  We had a victim survivor reach out and she told me that every year, around the same time, she would do a search. She didn't have like a name, she just had a few like key identifiers. Um, and every year she would try and find out details. And then because the first article came out, she was able to do her annual search and have a name.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  And a lot of this, um, was, for me, that's what it was like when I was eighteen, I went back to Babens Bay to try and find uninformation, to meet with other victim survivors. Um, it was from there that I was able to get like newspaper clippings and start to understand the extent, one of the abuse. Um, and the amount of victims, but two, just how um, hidden this had all been and like the by not, him not being named and there being no photos and no discussions, this sort of just disappeared. He just disappeared from the face of the earth and, you know, I've had victim survivors that have come forward that are as old as my parents. So he's been doing this a really long time.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Um, and that's why, you know, ultimately his name being in the media is so important because even if those people don't come forward, they might have a tiny sense of closure and know that there is indeed people out there fighting for justice for all of David Tuck's victim survivors.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Let's go back to the start and tell your story. When did you both start going to this daycare? And how much care were you in? Were you there multiple days a week, multiple nights a week? What did the care kind of look like?

• 10:39Speaker 01

  I was seven, so I was there quite a lot. My mum was a shift worker. So I spent a lot of time there after school, before school, on the weekends and in the evenings.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  And do you remember what it looked like? What the property looked like, what the house looked like?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. Um, I remember it like I was there yesterday. And also when I've made trips back to Batemans Bay, I've driven out to the property just to make sure it was real. Um, but yeah, I could remember exactly what it was like to walk up to the front stairs where the rooms were, where the bathroom was. Um, the backyard looked like. And I think the thing that stuck with me and Hayley and I have had this conversation is just how small it was last year. I, Hayley, was able to find some photos on realestate.com of the property and it was just so small. And it's crazy to me that any type of regulatory body walked into that place and said, this is a suitable place for 12, 12 or more children.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  12 or more kids, that's how many were there at a time?

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Well, this is, I guess, um, part of the information we're going to have to find out is, it wasn't meant to have that many children there at any one time. But, uh, any person who was attending the centre, whether a parent or somebody that was doing checks, or, you know, the children themselves knew that on quite a number of occasions, uh, he was frequently over the allowable numbers of children he was meant to have in his care. Um, you know, even the property itself, the house was tiny, you know, one single bathroom, two very small rooms, not enough beds for the children that were staying overnight.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  But also a very large dam that was completely unfenced on the property that, uh, at least one child that I know of fell into. Thankfully was pulled out, you know, without any harm, but.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  And to LJ's point, it, the property itself was not something that should ever have been approved to allow children in a care facility to be attending. It wasn't a safe property, let alone the man running it being a safe person.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Do you remember, on the surface, when you first went, was it fun? Was there activities? What was the pull?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  For me, um, I had gone to a couple of different primary schools in Bateman Space. So there were kids I went to school with. And, you know, like, there were familiar faces. There were so many kids, the yard was big, there were toys, there was TV. We could watch whatever movies we wanted. I remember we would watch, like, Titanic and, ah, there was another movie, I can't remember, Grease. You know, and I didn't have a VCR at home. So being able to sit and watch those things and have access to things that I might not have had was, was a big pull, you know? And it's not like back then, you know, centre daycare was really unaffordable and family daycare was a, was a preferred option, particularly in small towns.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  So when you walked in and you seen all of these other kids, people that you know, children that you recognised, there was no reason to think, even for a moment, that it was unsafe.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  And it was a necessity, I guess, you know, for most, all families there was low-income families, um, with multiple children typically. And they were working. So, you know, similar to LJ, would be shift working or, you know, hospitality workers that needed that extended hours care that was being offered, uh, rather than your standard after-school care. Um, you know, and your sort of daytime childcare. That was, that was the necessity for most families that were attending the centre.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  Which even nowadays is hard to find, to find kind of affordable childcare for evenings and weekends and, and those kinds of hours. You know, it is hard to find in Australia.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Basically non-existent. I mean, my partner and I were looking at, you know, getting a babysitter for a night out, you know, to go to the movies or a show or dinner and it's $300, you know.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  $300?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  You know, you're getting a private nanny or you're getting a private person who's charging you 30, $40 an hour. So if it's not affordable now, it absolutely was not affordable then. So anywhere that offered after-hours care that you could use a childcare rebate for, you know, of course, people are going to use that service. He was also well regarded in the community. He was registered with the council. When you look at some of the flyers and things like that, you know, it was promoted as this really safe, family-friendly, inclusive space for children.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Did the grooming start pretty quickly?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  For me, it was instant, instantaneously from the first time I ever walked in that place.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  After the break, LJ and Hailey share what the overnight childcare centre was like and how they felt when they first arrived there as children.

• 15:53Speaker 00

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• 16:30Speaker 00

  What did it look like? What was the first time you walked into that place like?

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Um, there was lots of affection, lots of toys, lots of you're so special, I'm so glad you're here. Um, you know, identifying, I guess, uh, vulnerabilities and then being able to like weaponize that vulnerability against you. Um, particularly if, say, there was any like issues at home or, you know, if there was uh, like poverty or anything like that, he was really able to fill those gaps and create that trust. And because there were so many kids, you know, when you seen like another kid sitting on his lap, it wasn't like, it was just a normalized behavior. And you know, what I reflect on now is that he didn't just groom the kids, he groomed the parents.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Um, because it was like, oh, come in for that cup of tea or like, you know, it became very friendly. Um, it was like a community within itself.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  Can you tell me about the odd rules that he had and he enforced on the kids?

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, he had um, some rules, which I mean, we've actually found in writing uh, since our investigation started. Some being for parents that they had to knock before entering, had to allow time. Um, now, if you compare that to a modern facility for childcare, I mean, you wanna walk in and collect your child, you walk in and collect your child. Um, eh, but in terms of rules, there was for the children and these were of course, kept from the parents, but you weren't meant to wear underwear to bed. Um, there essentially was a child each night that would sleep in his bed.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Um, and, you know, I mean, yeah, they're probably the most significant ones.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Normally too, like, for me, you know, I'd be getting dropped to school and he'd be like, oh, you look really sick, you have to stay home. And that was a common occurrence as well for children, like there'd just always be one sick kid that had to stay home, particularly if they're off school age.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  We have access to some correspondence between organizations, government organizations.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  That was raising that as an issue between the organisations and he was given warnings essentially that that wasn't appropriate behaviour. Um, nothing further was addressed or done by council when they were made aware that the government funded child carer was having children sleep in his bed. I mean, you would think that's an immediate reason to shut down the centre.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  And that in the end was not even the reason that he was shut down for. In the end, he was shut down for fraud and that meant he was then allowed to move to a different state and continue essentially, you know, exposing himself to children. I at that point was harmed again, um, because our parents were never notified that, hey, these allegations that have been raised, um, you know, he called my parents and said, well, you know, listen, I've stopped doing the childcare. It was something to do with fraud and then we went to go and have a visit, which it's like, had he, had my family been notified, obviously at that point you cut ties, but no families were given that opportunity.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Because, you know, in my opinion, it was swept under the rug.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Hmm. How soon after you both started going, did the abuse start?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Mine was in like the second or third time that I attended.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Hayley, do you remember? Cause you were so young.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I was only five years old when I started at the centre and it was the first time that I was chosen to sleep in the bed essentially, um, which was again, you know, fairly immediate to starting at the centre.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  And then the abuse in terms of frequency, once he had started, was it every time you guys went?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  For me, yes.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  It was very often, um, as LJ said, it's, you know, it's almost like he picked a child he got to pick, you know, um. So it was definitely very frequent, particularly when most children were attending the centre three to four times a week. It would be at least once a week.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  Do either of you or both of you remember how it made you feel?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  I don't think I knew what was happening, but I knew it was wrong.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  I think I also realised it was happening to other children. So then I was confused about whether or not it was normal. Obviously there are, you know, physical responses such as like pain, uncomfortability, all of those things. But for me, I just don't think I knew what was happening, other than I didn't want it to happen. And, you know, he was good at the manipulation, I guess, on ensuring that you didn't tell. And he himself normalised the behaviour. Maybe like, I love you so much. This is what love is. You're my favourite. All of that kind of typical sex offender behaviour.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Were, were there threats involved? How did he kind of keep this up without?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I'm part of a bigger sibling group. So he was like, you know, if you tell anyone, like, your mum is gonna get in trouble and then you will like get taken away from her and you won't see your siblings again.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for me, it was more uh, you're gonna get in trouble. You know, this is because you do, you feel like it's your fault or like, you, you know, it's something wrong. You don't know how to um, express it or you don't really understand what's going on. But if you, when you're told this is your fault, you're bad, you're gonna get in trouble if you tell anyone. Um, you know, at five years old, that obviously puts a lot of pressure on a child and causes a lot of confusion. Um, so ultimately, yeah, you just stay quiet because you don't know, we don't have the ability to sort of weigh up the risks or understand that.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  If it's in the language, like, what do you say? I wouldn't have known what to say anyway.

• 22:36Speaker 00

  And even, and in the nineties, I mean, I'm a nineties baby too. We weren't really taught consent as a, as a kid and and our bodies being ours or any of that kind of language that we use now.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  I think the best real thought was like that life, that, you know, that giraffe. I think I learnt some stuff from there.

• 22:53Speaker 00

  Healthy Harold.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, Healthy Harold. I think that was the best I got, really.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Not, one, understanding what's going on and two, not understanding where there's safe people. You can tell that's something that is really improved over time. I mean, it's, you know, we can still do better. But definitely as a child, like you said, in the nineties, you were told to do what adults said.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  You did. And if an adult said, you can't tell anyone this, um, and you're gonna be in big trouble. Uh, particularly when you come from a home that maybe isn't as loving and supportive, then you absolutely don't wanna get in trouble. So you don't tell anyone.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  Did either of you try and tell anyone? Try and talk to your parents?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  I, I do remember sort of one occasion where, you know, I was so close to disclosing. It was on the tip of my tongue and unfortunately at the time, you know, the person I was trying to disclose to was really busy. And, you know, sort of by the time I got their attention, they were a bit snappy of like, you know, what is it? I'm in the middle of something. And then, you know, I just withdrew and couldn't get it out of my mouth. But that was a very distinct memory that I have because it was at the point where I needed it to stop.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  My situation is pretty similar. I remember sitting at the kitchen table and I had gotten in trouble for something maybe at school. And I remember my mom being like, you know, what is wrong with you? Kind of thing. And I was so close to saying something, but I remember just like hearing his voice in my head, you know, basically being like, you'll lose everything and it'll be your fault. So I just didn't say anything.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  Because were there signs that,

• 24:41Speaker 00

  you know, in hindsight, your parents, if they'd been looking, might have noticed socially, kind of mentally, behaviorally that you, you guys were doing that that kind of showed what was happening?

• 24:54Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I look back now and think, you know, I was a very withdrawn child. I was very emotionally um underdeveloped, I would say. So even sort of in your later primary years would um sulk, let's say, or you know, we called it sulking. Um I could never appropriately as express uh express emotions. It would be, you know, something's happened I didn't like and I would just completely withdraw. Um things like bedwetting um was very consistent, you know, uh well beyond the years that um it was age appropriate. And, you know, sexualized behaviour,

• 25:35Speaker 02

  um I think, you know, these are all really, really big indicators that again with education and understanding what they look like, a hundred percent, um they were there. But of course, you know, it we were not in situations where um our parents were familiar with those signs.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  I spent a lot of time struggling at school, getting into fights at school, not being able to maintain friendships. Um I also left school in year nine as a result of the abuse that I experienced. But, you know, I think even up until he committed suicide, I think there are lots of behaviours that um if we were to look at it now, would have would have raised concerns or should have raised concerns.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  How long did the abuse go for? How long were you attending this daycare?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Um I, the last time I was abused by him, I was eleven, I think eleven or twelve. I think eleven, probably.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  For four years?

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  That's a long time to to be enduring this.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  You mentioned, Hayley, that, you know, he got eventually shut down from fraud, but there were also a number of assault allegations while you were there that didn't get him shut down, weren't there?

• 26:53Speaker 02

  E- exactly right. And I think um a lot more education needs to happen with the public in terms of.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  What the process is when a child makes an allegation and the huge gap required to actually criminally charge and convict that person. Um. I think there's a really big misconception that if someone is charged but not convicted, that they're innocent. And David Tuck had allegations against him and charges against him before he ever even opened the childcare centre. And he was not convicted of those. And we can tell you right now, as we know who the original accuser was, that that a hundred percent happened.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  And had that child been believed, and had he been criminally charged, you're talking dozens of children would have been protected from this man. So I think a really key point is we need to believe children, and we need to understand that not getting a conviction does not mean that they didn't commit the crime. When we're talking about child predators, you know, because unfortunately, expecting a, you know, five, six, seven, eight year old child to sit on a stand and give the amount of testimony needed for a criminal conviction is just, you know, i- it's too much really to burden any child with.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  We really need to reevaluate how the system works now. And I think that, you know, a lot of people read our story and go, well, that was then. But some of these things, particularly what Hayley is saying, are not much different now.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  It's still harder than people think to have someone convicted of child sexual abuse. And the younger the victim, the harder it is. They're relying on things like medical evidence and other forms of evidence that isn't always possible to collect. And, you know, I think it stands like, children don't lie about being abused.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  This.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Relevance is so irrelevant that it's, it's not even worth mentioning. They might, they might be confused or misidentify who, but their children don't lie about being abused.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  He went to trial for the charges you're talking about in nineteen ninety one. So it was ten counts of child abuse against an eleven year old girl, found not guilty. And then by nineteen ninety four, he had a, he had a daycare. So that means he passed police checks, working with children checks. When you found that out.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  That this man had these charges and then went on to abuse you in this setting. How did that feel?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  I mean, it makes you angry, of course, and I think that's a huge part of why LJ and I started speaking publicly about this and why we genuinely want to make changes in how people think about pedophiles or who they think a pedophile is, because someone this significant can slip through the cracks and just re-offend and re-offend. You know, you've got to say, okay, there must have been signs and we're telling you, yeah, there was plenty of signs, but no individual took responsibility for putting up those flags. You know, it's very much turn a blind eye.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  And a lot of people think, oh, well, that was the nineties and this is now. As LJ said, well, we've had three major childcare sexual abuse cases in the last handful of years. It's exactly the same and they use the exact same tactics. Move states so they're not traceable, you know, as soon as there's a complaint, move, shift. And, you know, it's a lot easier for childcare services to move someone along than raise the red flags and really in the end, it's everyone's trying to protect their own business or themselves and it's not the right way to go about it. I mean, protecting the children should be the number one priority.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  And whilst there wasn't working with children, check cards that look the way they look today, back then, there was still required checks. There were still police checks, there were still reviews that needed to be done in order to have someone be allowed to work with children and we need to ask, you know, for our case, what happened? How was dismissed? But also acknowledge that in current day, when we look at those three particular cases, within the childcare sector, all of those people have working with children's checks. So where is the gap there? You know, my, I'm of the opinion we're working with children's check. Only works if you've been caught for something, right?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  If you've never been caught, how are the people that you work with looking at behaviour, looking at concerns, looking at gut feelings and what are they doing about that? You know, uh, one of the things that we've been advocating for is required training. So that when people get a working with children's cheque, they have to do training. And some people say, oh, well, what's training going to do? It's not about stopping the perpetrator. It's about the people working in these spaces, having the ability to know the language, know what to look out for, know how to report and have the confidence so that they can report. Because it's not like, it's not just about like catching the predator one on one.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  It's about child, child prevention and the prevention of child sexual abuse being an everyone problem and then everyone issue and we all have a role to play in that.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Cause it's almost like that working with children's cheque would lull parents into this false sense of security, right?

• 32:36Speaker 02

  That's right. It's like, um, LJ said before, even looking for a private nanny or a private babysitter, first thing most parents are asking for is a working with children's cheque.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  My opinion, it's not worth the paper it's written on. You can go online and you can apply for working with children's cheque and provided you haven't been criminally charged, you can have one. Now, to get your driver's licence, you need to do a test. To get your responsible service of alcohol, you have to do a test. Why is it we are putting children in the care of somebody who has no form of qualification? Essentially, the only requirement is they haven't been caught doing something wrong. Uh, I think that's the biggest issue is understanding that, uh, working with children's cheque does not make them a safe person and there are multiple other things you need to be looking out for.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  I'm confused how Tuck got a working with children's cheque. If he did have charges, is it because he was found not guilty?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  So it's unclear, to be honest, it's actually unclear. There was some change in legislation, um, in the early nineties. It sort of looks similar to like the modern day spent conviction schemes. I, I don't know enough to speak on it, but I understand that there was some legislation change which may have allowed him somehow to slip through the gap. But at the end of the day, it's not good enough. I mean. Like they weren't, it wasn't like he did a beat, break and enter or something.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  No.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  He was accused of abusing children. He should never, ever been put in a position where he was working with children. And unfortunately, the daycare isn't the only role that he had after those charges occurred.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Cause he worked with children across his whole career.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, he used detention, um, worked with children with disabilities, he worked in a hospital, he was a bus driver. He was a scouts leader. So his entire adult life, he worked with children.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  The last figure I saw was that there were potentially fifty five victims. Do you think that there could be more than that?

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Well, that's just of the childcare. That's the, um, that's just the childcare number that that's assumed. But I would say there were, would be hundreds of victims.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Oh, definitely. If you think the fifty five is over a four, five year timeframe. And he was in his forties when he committed suicide. We know the earliest that we've been able to track that he offended was at seventeen years old. It's hundreds, it's hundreds and hundreds of victims. And this brings us back to. This is why we want to get his photo out there, not just his name. This is why we are putting this photo out there. Is so that every one of those victims who did try and speak up and weren't believed, and we know of numerous of them. Um, that they know they're believed now and they are supported. And really that, you know, like this guy was a really, really horrible person.

• 35:29Speaker 00

  Up next, LJ and Hayley discuss how they discovered their abuser had died and whether it changed how they felt about getting justice.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  As you've mentioned, he died by suicide in two thousand and one. And he died while on bail for child abuse charges. So he was actually finally facing around, you know, a dozen charges. And then he died. Did you guys know about that? When did you find out about that?

• 35:58Speaker 01

  I found out my mum got a, we, I didn't live in Batemans Bay anymore, I lived in Canberra. And my mum got a call from someone in community who knew that we'd attended that daycare. And then she. Asked and eventually I disclosed what had happened, but she didn't get any call from the police or the council or anyone. And when I went back to Batemans Bay at eighteen and nineteen, I was clearly named as a victim. You know, it was, it was a lot to sit there and see my name as an identified victim and know that, know wholeheartedly that no one called her. And like I said, I've, I've got a big sibling group. So at any point in time, like she deserved a phone call.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  You know, she deserved the police to knock on her door and say, hey, this is what's happened and your child's been named. But you know, the, the responsibility was put on her and to get like a random phone call, I can't imagine what that would have been like for her or for any parent. And from what I gather, like this is a lot of how parents found out was through community, not through formal contact with agencies.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  I'm confused as to why the police wouldn't have continued to investigate because even if he died, there are victims here.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Oh, exactly. And that is something that has really enraged us since I found out, which I think was around six or seven years ago, that I realised, and this was through contact with LJ, that he was never publicly named. And we found that out through newspaper articles, which essentially said, we've been told we can't name this man. And, you know, ironically, within the same article, it says, any victims that come forward can have counselling and that, you know, we're offering all of these services. Okay, well, that's fantastic. At that time, I was around eight or nine years old. How was I knowing who I was contacting or what, you know, I don't read the newspaper. My family was not in Batemans Bay anymore,

• 38:04Speaker 02

  which meant they were not reading the newspaper where it was published. So at what point were they genuinely actually offering services and support to the families? It seems like a very empty offer when you say, we're not going to tell you the perpetrator's name. We're not going to tell you any information about him, but if you were his victim, please come and tell us and we'll support you. I mean. Excuse my French, but what a load of shit.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  And again, like it looks at that like the onus and responsibility on children to get help for abuse. Um, when it was something that was done to them by adults and there are adults that are responsibility, had a responsibility to protect them.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  And it's not a situation of, well, we don't know who the perpetrator was, or we don't know who had contact with him. This was a registered childcare centre where parents were receiving the childcare subsidy for their children attending, which means the council and the other uh state organisations had a very clear list of children that had had contact with a known predator. So at that point, uh whether or not they knew that the, all of these children had been exposed to abuse, they knew that they were at a very high risk of it. And they still chose to not contact the families directly and offer that support.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Is that illegal as far as you know?

• 39:30Speaker 02

  It should be.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  It's not, um, it's, it's just, yeah, it should be illegal and it's unethical. Uh, you know, we could talk about like ethics and morals because they certainly were not considered at that time.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  And we can't even say, like, I think it's really important to be here. This is nothing about the time. Because there was legislation in place, there were rules in place. Organisations, both state and nationally, knew about institutional child sexual abuse. It wasn't like they'd never heard of this thing before. It was documented, they knew there were processes that could have been followed, there were things that could have been done, and they weren't done for whatever reason.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Well, Nina Fennell, who you mentioned earlier, you wrote your original article with, she mentioned that the decision, you know, it goes further than that. They decided not to reach out to schools, to local councillors, to places where other children were to try and spread the word, you know, help victims, support the community, like that's a very, yeah, it goes further than just not ringing the list of names on the childcare.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  And the question, I guess, to that is, who benefited from that?

• 40:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Because victims didn't benefit, the families impacted didn't benefit. There was only one person at that point. I mean perpetrator's dead, so it didn't, you know, there was no risks thereof naming the wrong person. At this point, there is only one group of people that benefited and, you know, really i- it was completely the wrong thing to do. And it, what it meant was so many victims have had, not had the opportunity to access support and heal from this experience when they could have, you know, in early childhood, when really that offer of support would have been so much more significant than now as adults where we're here trying to fight for our own justice. Spending six, seven years

• 41:23Speaker 02

  in a court case trying to fight for accountability. I mean, we shouldn't have to.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  As a victim survivor, something that I've really struggled with throughout my whole life is wondering who I could have been. Had, not only had this had not happened, but had I had got the support needed. You know, my life would have been infinitely easier and I would have been able to have opportunities. Uh, my trajectory, my ability to function in the world would have been so much different because I know now from my own professional experience that recovery and healing starts with safe places to have conversations and to talk about it and have, you know, even if it's not justice, but some sort of accountability and acknowledgement that it happened and without having him named, most of us never got that. And then we had to move through the world

• 42:14Speaker 01

  alone in our grief and in our pain. Without even being able to Google this man to find out if it was real, I can't tell you the amount of times and I thought, did I just make this up like? Is this not a real thing? And it wasn't until I found other victim survivors that I was like, no, actually this really happened. Because you can Google um sex offenders from like the sixties and their names come up.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  But Davids didn't come up, not even so much as like a, uh, anything anyway.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Can you expand on, on what you mean for both of you on how this abuse and this, the trauma that followed affected you into your teenage years and adulthood and how it kind of shaped.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Your experiences?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, I left school in year nine. I have struggled with, uh, I struggled with substance use well into my twenties. I've struggled with suicidality and self-harm. Um, I have chronic social anxiety. Um, all of my study I've done now, like I'm lucky, I've turned my life around. I'm an academic now, but I had to, I went back to uni in my thirties. I've now, you know, I've struggled with relationships with my family. I've experienced intimate partner violence. Um, and these, all of these things can be like deeply linked into the experiences of child sexual abuse and not being able to access support. It's really hard to move on with your

• 43:38Speaker 01

  life if you have nowhere to go. Um, and you don't know how to ask for help. You don't even know how to name what's happened to you. And, you know, when we think about, like, we, we started the conversation thinking about words like consent. Uh, a really good way to not understand consent is if you've never had it. And so then there's risks of being like revictimised, um, experiencing further abuse, um, in multiple different settings. And that has been my experience really up and, up until I was in my twenties and met my husband. And that's a long time to suffer.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  I, you know, and a lot of the similar experiences to LJ, but another massive impact for me, and it's, I think, one that we're slowly learning more about, but it's still not talked about often, is, um, I've developed an autoimmune disease, which when you go back and you look at the statistics, is heavily linked to early childhood trauma, to significant stress. Now, it has progressed to a point now in my life at thirty four years old where it's attacking my bones. And, you know, I need constant monthly treatment that is very hard to access, that is not continual, and. Is not always effective and essentially at some point where this disease progresses,

• 44:55Speaker 02

  the um patient can end up in a wheelchair and lose mobility. And that's a very serious issue and that is worst case scenario, yes, but there are, um like I said, I I'm young, I'm very much on the younger end of people that should be suffering to the severity that I have, this autoimmune and it is not something that I will ever recover from. And of course, that within itself, you know, with the anxiety and depression I already have from the abuse, on top of dealing with, you know, the the physical manifestation of that, it's it's really significant.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  People also don't talk about how this impacts parenting. No, I'm super hypervigilant, you know, my children aren't really allowed out of my sight. You know, like I'm super protective of them and they're really good things to have. But being hypervigilant all the time is not good for your immune system, it's not good for your mental health, it's not good for your sleep, it has lasting impacts and no one wants to walk around the world being like a you one of them.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  I know that you're both mums, you also have kids, Hayley.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  How did you both kind of approach the idea of childcare for your kids? Because I can imagine that would have been a very triggering idea to to conceptualize.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Oh, and it still is, it's still um the constant balance of trying to be a career mum, but also not leave your children in the care of anybody um is a constant daily struggle. And, you know, my older child is um at the age where they want sleepovers. And it's something that, I'm sorry, but we just don't allow. And, you know, they want to be able to go on school camp. I have allowed that, but the anxiety that I felt and had to, I was pretty much incapacitated for the three days. Um, and probably even a few days after.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Because, yeah, i- i- it's just this constant fear that you can't protect your children. And also, you can't spot a pedophile. And it only takes a short amount of time for someone to take advantage of your child.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  I've spent twelve years working um in the sort of social work sector. I'm a researcher now, but I worked in, worked with families um in child protection. So I really, this is like encompassed my whole identity in life. Because I am fearful for my children, but fearful for other people's children. I remember when I first enrolled my older daughter into cha- into childcare. I was like, I don't want to just see when my children checks. I want to know when people got their police checks done. You know, like, I was really um heavy handed, I guess you would say, on the, on the daycares that she went to. Um, I really struggled if there was any male childcare workers enough.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Not that there's anything wrong with male childcare workers, but due to lived experience, you're always that little bit more worried. Um, and like Haley, when, when my daughter went on camp, I gave her my um Apple Watch. Which is, you're not allowed to do, but I was like, I need to know that if she is not okay, she can call us. And then I just call the school all the time, which, you know, for her is not ideal. But, you know, we're also not allowed, you know, not allowing sleepovers. I heavily monitor technology and these are really good perfect, protective things. And I would encourage parents to make sure they do their education and have knowledge and have understanding. But it takes a toll on you as a parent because it's, this is no way to be.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Um, and even though we should all be aware of these things when you are a victim survivor of abuse and you have children, it's something that you're thinking about all the time. Especially as they hit the ages you were when you first started being abused or any slight changes in behaviour. You know, you're just that little bit more aware of risk.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  Well, I've got two children currently in daycare. I am not a victim survivor and it's been something that's been on my mind multiple times and I was hyper vigilant while trying to pick a childcare because as you said, the amount of pedophiles that have been found in childcare settings today, last year, the year before, like in modern society is unbelievable, really.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Oh, and that's why a massive part of what LJ and I are trying to do is an overhaul of all of these safeguards which were meant to be in place in the 90s and were in place but were not upheld and that were in place when all of these more recent cases have come out. We have these case studies now, they should be looked at and we should identify what these cracks are and there's been promises made that things will change but nothing's changed. There's no National Working with Children's check. You know, it's a huge step in the right direction, doesn't solve things but it stops a lot of those perpetrators when you look, move from state to state and that is your first step in making that avoidable.

• 50:01Speaker 00

  So you're saying, you're saying that the Working with Children's check is different in every state and territory which allows kind of abusers to manipulate the system?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  If you say have an allegation or a concern raised against you in Queensland and the investigation only just starts, you can relocate to Melbourne, get a Working with Children's check and it won't be automatically sent. And you know, the important thing to note here is I gave evidence in the Royal Commission into institutionalised sexual abuse. One of the first and most important recommendations from that Royal Commission was a National Working with Children's check and reform around Working with Children's check. The Royal Commission happened 10 years ago, that still has not been implemented. There are many recommendations, over half from the Royal Commission that have not been implemented and the Royal Commission looked at institutionalised sexual abuse over decades.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  And the fact that these cases are still happening shows how important that reform was and it should have happened and it hasn't. And you know, here in Victoria, actually even West Melbourne where Joshua Brown is located and he was, he's the most recent case around abuse in childcare. My daughter went to one of the daycares he attended. Thank God, nothing happened to her, but it hit our community really hard out here. And the Victorian Government has moved towards creating reform in a register. But in my opinion, it's too little, too late. Like, these things have been known. They were clearly outlined in the Royal Commission. And there's really no excuse good enough as to why this reform hasn't already happened.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  We know risk, it's clearly identified risk and there's still no National Working with Children's Check.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  It doesn't feel like that hard a thing, that recommendation in particular, to put in place. I'm confused as to why it hasn't been put in place.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  We really need to ask the Prime Minister that question. Because there is really no excuse good enough. And I know that there are many organisations that are advocating for reform, such as the National Centre for Action on Child Sexual Abuse, Straight and Childhood Foundation, Snake. Like, there are many national organisations that have been advocating for reform for a really long time and we're still here, still having to have this discussion. And all you have to Google is child abuse in daycare. We've spoken about three cases here. There are many, many more spending over the last 10 years alone. They just don't all make it to the TV.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  What does your advocacy for overhauling the system look like? I know that there's a petition that was started by Nina Fennell that's both of your faces. Is that helping or how are you guys trying to overhaul the system?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  We need 20,000 signatures to be able to take this to the government. Nina is really driving us on the more logistical aspect of it. But if we do get 20,000 signatures, we can start to open the doors to a discussion around what's needed. In terms of reform around the Working with Children's Check and training, these are being advocated by multiple different organisations. Different victim survivors who were let down in various different settings due to this gap within Working with Children's check. So it's important to note, like, we are one of many people advocating for this. But it must start with government reform and ideally um an inquiry, a national inquiry into the childcare sector. You know, we are seeing individual states do versions of inquiries,

• 53:25Speaker 01

  but we actually need a national response to this and remove the requirement of it being state by state because that's half the reason we're here in the first place. You know, there are many national standards. Um. This needs to be something that is prioritized. You know, on average, um a working family spent twenty five thousand dollars to send their child to daycare, um which is a requirement if you would like to work. We need to make sure that that a child walks into a daycare and they are safe. And no more like me jerk reactions. Like in Victoria here, we're talking about like no phones in daycares, no iPads, cameras. That's all great. A lot of centres have had those in place for a really long time. It's still not protecting kids.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  So there needs to be more done and whatever is done, it needs to be the same everywhere.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  It's amazing what you're both doing, fighting for the children of today. But in terms of justice in your own story, obviously your abuser is dead. What does justice there look like? Are you able to get it by doing this fight elsewhere?

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think for myself, uh at least, justice is about accountability. And in this situation, we're looking to hold the party that licensed and oversaw David Tuck and failed to undertake the appropriate checks. And that's not just prior to him being licensed, but that is for all of the years that he was licensed, that um allegations were made. Uh. In the end, if we can at least hold the council accountable, it paves, uh I guess, a way for other operators to see that they can be held accountable. Because what we want to stop is the sweeping of under the rug.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  It is at the moment easier for a childcare service to move somebody on that face the repercussions of identifying identifying a predator.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Um. So and a big part of what we're asking for is looking at um and whether that's a financial punishment, fine uh for not reporting. There needs to be very clear reporting guidelines that individual centres and operators need to follow. And if they don't follow, then they are then held accountable.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  And for for me, I mean, justice is a is a funny word because will we get justice? I don't know. But I would like accountability and I'd like there to be reform and I want all childcare workers and teachers and anyone who works with children not feel like they've risked, there's a risk in reporting um in terms of like, will I lose my job? Will I get in trouble? Um, you know, what if I report and I'm wrong? Like, there needs to be conversations to have, conversations that are had to make sure people feel empowered enough to report because of this is what we need to happen and then have those reports be acted upon. When you looked at the Joshua Brown case, which is the case in Western Melbourne,

• 56:34Speaker 01

  there are people who were like, I knew you something or I thought something was wrong, but I didn't say anything. Even when I've worked within this sector, I've spoken to child protection, childcare workers who were like, oh, I had an inkling, but I didn't say anything. And then then it turned out, you know, the child was being abused. We need to change that mentality. If you see something, say something. The bystander effect is is hurting so many people from women in domestic violence to children who are being abused. We need to let go of that. And if you see, if you even have a slight gut feeling, tell someone about it because children don't have the language or the ability to tell someone. That's our jobs as the adults. And then the other side of that is for parents and carers and teachers

• 57:19Speaker 01

  to have clear conversations with children about safety.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  I was recently in Zimbabwe. I'm working with a program that looks at the prevention of child sexual abuse. They spoke so clearly to children about the right terminology for body parts, about what is consent, what is abuse, in a really matter of fact way. And what they seen is that those children had a much higher rate of disclosure to adults because they had the damn language.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  You know, you, you, it, it's hard and parents are scared. But if your child is being sexually abused and they know what a penis is and a vagina is, they're way more likely to disclose. And when they know that those aren't dirty words that they're going to get in trouble for. We, we as adults have to reconcile why, where, why we're scared of saying those words, why we're scared of hearing them. Because that is, we can't stop child sexual abuses. I wish we could, but no one's sort of figured out that yet. But we can protect children by having frank and honest conversations. And for me, maybe that's what justice is, is a change in the way we communicate about abuse in general.

• 58:27Speaker 00

  Even just, uh, I can't help but think, Kayleigh, when you're telling us about bedwetting. I've heard that numerous times now that child abuse survivors often show that sign. So it's like picking up on signs like that and using that as a conversation starter with your child to then have those conversations. And knowing these kinds of, you know, like behavioural changes or, or, or things to pick up on to then start conversations with your kids.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Uh, there's a lot of really good resources for parents to read and communicate to children. So there's a lot of, um, children's books that I use with my own children. But then there's also the education pieces for parents to understand and look out for the signs. Uh, I think the missing piece is more around if you do suspect, parents don't know where to go and it's not so simple. And, you know, the first time I was sat down and asked by my parent after this all came out, I said, no. I, I, I was still too afraid and too confused to be able to disclose. So I think it's important, um, to understand that not every child wants to tell.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  A parent, maybe they need, um, you know, a professional or, you know, a more private setting. It's, um, you can't rely on parents to be able to get this information out of children in the appropriate way either. But there's also not a very straightforward way to access the information or the steps, um, to parents if they do sus- suspect abuse. So that is really, I think, a missing piece.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  I'd, I'd like to see investment to, into services for children and parents who've experienced child sexual abuse. So that when a child does come forward, parents know what to do, not just in terms of like, reporting it to the police or child protection or the authorities, but also how to get help, um, how to help children recover and move through it. Um, and how, how to help parents do the same because it's not easy for anyone in that instance when abuse has been, um, experienced. But, you know, without support services, the child ultimately continues to suffer lifelong pain.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  You mentioned that there could be hundreds of victims out there of David Tuck's. You're both in your thirties, you know, these are people in their thirties, potentially forties, even older, that might have never told anyone what happened to them. Do you have a message for them, having only recently shared your own stories?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  We believe you.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  We believe you.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Thank you to LJ and Hayley for joining us on this episode. You can sign their petition, Keep Kids Safe, at the link in our show notes. They're calling for an overhaul of working with children check schemes in Australia. Make sure you're following our show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify for updates on this story and all the stories we cover. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.