The Woman Tasked With Fixing Australia's Most Controversial Police Force

We don't often have politicians on True Crime Conversations. But when a domestic violence incident is reported to police every three minutes, the people making the laws and setting policy have a critical role to play. NSW Police and Counter-Terrorism Minister Yasmin Catley joins Gemma Bath for a rare conversation about the state's response to domestic and family violence. From the results of Operation Emme Rock, which saw almost 1,000 high-risk offenders arrested in just four days, to the introduction of coercive control laws, Catley explains what's being done to prevent violence and protect victim-survivors. The discussion also explores the warning signs that are too often missed, the challenges police face, and whether the justice system is doing enough to stop abuse before it escalates. LINKS If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Support independent women’s media and get our biggest offer of the year. Subscribe here https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe/?utm_source=shownotes&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=tcc&code=MMEOFY30 for 30% off your annual Mamamia subscription. Code applied at the checkout. Offer ends June 30. GET IN TOUCH Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @truecrimeconversations https://www.instagram.com/truecrimeconversations/?hl=en Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960 Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes. CREDITS Guest: Yasmin Catley, New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-terrorism https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533976/Host: Gemma Bath https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemmabath/?originalSubdomain=au Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman https://www.linkedin.com/in/tahli-blackman-205a891b7/?originalSubdomain=au Group Executive Producer: Ilaria Brophy Video Editor: Julian Rosario Audio Designer: Tegan Salder Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  He's an Australian-born man, non-indigenous. He's aged between 30 and 34, and he's armed with a knife.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  What I've just described to you is your average type of domestic violence homicide offender in New South Wales. We know all of this because of a new interactive tool made by the state's Domestic Violence Death Review Team. It's based on three decades' worth of data. I mean, the numbers are no surprise to most of us. We're losing a woman a week to a former or current partner in Australia. As New South Wales Police Minister Yasmin Catley admits, it's depressing, but she's trying. For three years, she's been overseeing major changes to our laws and systems. In 2024, New South Wales criminalised coercive control.

• 0:57Speaker 00

  They made bail laws tougher and introduced stricter monitoring for those let out. They introduced a new app called Empower You so victims can discreetly document abuse and seek support. They've done blitz operations, mass arresting offenders. But is it working? That's the big question.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  So for the women living this reality in fear with abuse, with violent men, what's next? What do we actually do next?

• 1:33Speaker 00

  I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. We don't often have politicians on this podcast, but time and time again, we hear about the barriers, trauma, backlogs and roadblocks that are getting in the way of victims and their families as they try and seek help, justice or support from our police services. Yasmin Catley is only in charge of policing counter-terrorism in New South Wales, but we were keen to hear from her, from someone in a position of power, to understand more about how decisions are made, how change is enacted, and why progress in spaces that are crying out for reform is so damn slow.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Catley comes from a working class family and grew up in the Hunter and Central Coast regions of New South Wales. Her husband is also in politics and they have three daughters together. She has been a member of the Australian Labor Party since she was 19. She started off as an electorate officer in the federal party and worked in several senior ministers' offices for more than a decade before entering state parliament. She was elected member for Swansea in 2015 and from there she's worn a number of hats. Shadow Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation, Shadow Minister for Building Reform and Property and for Rural Regional Jobs, Deputy Leader of the Party and consequently Deputy Leader of the Opposition,

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Shadow Minister for Customer Service, Shadow Minister for Digital, both Shadow Minister and Minister for the Hunter, and as of 2023 Minister for Police and Counterterrorism, which of course is why we've invited her on the podcast. Here's our conversation with Yasmin Catley. Yasmin, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Can you give us a bit of a background on your career? Because I'm fascinated how someone went from being a librarian to New South Wales Minister for Police and Counterterrorism. I know there's a lot of gaps in there, but tell me how that trajectory has kind of happened for you.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I still pinch myself too, quite frankly. Look, I did join the Labor Party when I was 19. I come from a working class family. My dad was a seafarer. So, politics was something that was talked about a lot in our house. And he was a member of the party, so I joined as well. I remained a member of the party. I should tell you, I was a member of the Swansea branch. There were about 76 men and me.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  Really?

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yes, you can imagine a 19-year-old.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  Just one 19-year-old woman.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  And guess what? I became the secretary of the branch real quick. And that's because, what do you do? You give the woman all the work.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Oh, typical, right?

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Don't make my blood boil. Oh, well, you'd be boiling every day if I could tell you half my stories, Gemma. You know, and then I did, I worked in Public libraries for most of my career and then at the I did almost ten years at the Refugee Review Tribunal. So I moved into Commonwealth, public service libraries and I loved it. I really enjoyed my job. And it was after my third child, I was living in Dalitchil with my husband and the three girls. And Anthony Albanese was my local member and he said, do you want to come and work in my electorate office? And I did. And but then we moved back home to Swansea and I worked for Greg Combe. In two thousand and fourteen, the Labour Party was looking for a candidate for the seat of Swansea.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  And Greg said, you should do that. And he encouraged me to do that. And can I say, it's the greatest honour of my life, representing my community, the people that I live, work and play with.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  So it sounds like, you know, being the member for Swansea is is something you're really passionate about.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  What about the police and counter-terrorism portfolios? What did you know about them prior to getting into that world? And was that something that you were excited about when you got tapped to do it?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Well, Gemma, I'd spent most of my life trying to avoid police, like most people, quite frankly. So as a consequence of that, I didn't know a lot about it. But, you know, being a minister of any portfolio, you you learn. That's your job, to learn the portfolio. You don't need to be an expert from day one. And no one can say I'm not a hard worker. So I threw myself into that portfolio so that I could really learn the ins and outs of it. I've travelled this state, meeting police right across the state, seeing what they do, the type of work they do. I don't think that there's a command that I haven't been at at least once, many several times.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I'm really invested in it and I'm invested in it because I don't think I understood exactly the intersection between police and the rest of the community, like I do today. And that is day to day, day in, day out. Police's intersection, twenty-four hours a day into community in New South Wales, is probably the only organisation that has that closeness. And therefore, that's how serious it is and how important it is. So I take that very, very seriously in my role as their minister.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  For listeners, exactly what is your job? Because it's a very different role to like the Police Commissioner, but you do work very closely with them. So what are you in charge of? What are you doing on a day to day basis?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Look, my job as Police Minister is to ensure that the New South Wales Police is resourced to do their job, which is keep the community of New South Wales safe. Obviously, it's a policy direction as well, like recruitment, the recruitment policy, for instance, getting more boots on the ground, making sure police is staying within the organisation, so reducing the attrition rate. Obviously, their pay and conditions of work are very important to me. If we don't look after police, they will walk out the door. So they rely on their Minister to make sure that their wellbeing is centre in mind of everything, every decision that I make. And of course, legislation, because they enforce the law.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  So working hand in glove with the Commissioner to make sure that the laws that we are implementing, that the police can then operationalise them on the ground.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  So the Commissioner would come to you with kind of the issues and the problems, and then you'll help take that into legislation and law?

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Sure. Look, the Commissioner and I speak several times a week, sometimes several times a day.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Really?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we're very close and you have to be to do the job right.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  That's my view and, you know, whoever is in charge of whatever we're dealing with at the time, I will speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police. Ultimately, that's the Commissioner, but he, of course, delegates responsibility to other members of his workforce.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  You, when you took on these portfolios, I saw you criticise the previous Parliament for leaving you with a, quote, "mess". Can you tell me about that? What did you mean by that?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Oh, it's about their attitude towards police officers themselves and their work, their pay and working conditions. Capping police officers' wages sent their wages backwards and...

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Now, um, like looking back on it, we were the worst paid police officers in the country.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Really?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yep. So police were leaving in droves.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  And I mean, I guess that means we're losing quality police officers.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Well trained, that's right. Like, police officers at ten, eleven, twelve years, like, in fact, I love data and I love evidence. So when we were looking at the wages agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in twenty twenty three, twenty four, um, I got them to provide to me all the age groups that were leaving and when they were leaving. So it was sort of between that nine and eleven years, that's when police were leaving. Of course, they're the most experienced, they're the ones you exactly want to keep, the opposite. So we had to look at how we're going to keep those. So we devised, um, their, their pay and conditions, the, the workplace agreement, uh, to specifically target, uh, those who were leaving first and,

• 9:37Speaker 01

  or, or the most. And, um, we were really able to customise a great deal, which was, um, I think it was unanimously voted in. Um, so they went from the worst paid to the best paid. But the other thing was, um, not only were they not paid properly, they didn't feel supported as a result of that. And there was no wrapping, you know, wellbeing around them. We now have a wellbeing unit within the New South Wales Police. And that's to specifically case manage individual police officers. So we can keep our finger on the pulse and say, hey, you really should take some leave, you know? This is the sort of interaction that we want, and this is the, the help that we want to be providing our New South Wales Police. But it was outsourced to

• 10:19Speaker 01

  some, you know, external, uh, works compensation scheme. And police lost sight. They had, like, internally, they had no idea of what was happening to each individual officer. That's not how you look after people. That's not how you look after a workforce. I mean, I have fought hard all of my life for working people, for their paying conditions, and police are no different for me. And that's the one thing, they know I've got their back on.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  So would you say that that was your biggest challenge when you came in? And, and how do you think you're going? Is, is the police force happier?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Uh, look, well, they're certainly happier. They got more pay, hundred percent. Um, and so they should be. So they should be. Then, as I say, they're now the best paid police in the country. Um, they, they, they know that I've got their back. And I do, I genuinely have their back. Because- If we don't look after our New South Wales police officers that do a job like no other, like they do, they run towards danger when everyone else is running away from it. And it's a big job, you know, like you see the worst of people on the worst day of their life. But equally, it can be extraordinarily rewarding because you've helped someone out, you've, you know, managed to, you know, help someone in crisis or indeed save someone's life. So, I mean, it can be two very different jobs on two very different days.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  But I think ultimately, when I talk to police, they say to me, it's the best job ever. And thank you so much for looking after us and for supporting us. And I tell you what, you know, if they do something wrong, if there's an individual officer that does something wrong, and of course that's going to happen, then we should call that out. And I think even the police officers in there, you know, they also believe in that. But 99% of the time, let me tell you, they're good people doing incredibly hard job, doing it very, very well, and most people respect that.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Was there anything that surprised you when you took on these portfolios, got up to speed with them? What surprised you about what you were dealing with?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Yes, lots of surprises, good surprises and not so good surprises.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I, I think, I didn't realise at all that police were so depended upon across community 24 hours a day. And people think that they, you know, they're a mental health practitioner, a youth counsellor, a DV, you know, counsellor. Because police are around 24 hours a day, I felt like every incident that happened, it was, why aren't the police doing more? Like, that's how I was being questioned. Why aren't the police fixing that? Why aren't the police doing this? And I just, was this fresh set of eyes that came in and sat back and said, hold up. These people are law enforcement officers. They can't be everything to everyone.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  That's not how this works. Other departments need to also take some responsibility here. So we need to work collaboratively together to be able to come up with solutions for the community broadly. But the police cannot harbour all of this on their shoulders alone. That's not how this works. And already we're seeing some changes in the mental health incidents. So we've got, we're going to sign a memorandum of understanding with health soon so that we can have the right person, right care. So that's fantastic. In terms of domestic violence, of course, we've got the W D V CAS workers now working in police stations in some areas. So people like right next door to a police officer, they're sitting, working as a team. So that's fantastic, working very closely with the sector.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  And there's other examples as well. So it's just a fresh set of eyes coming in going, whoa, hold on a minute. This doesn't seem right. And that's just being practical and being a community member myself. And we're seeing some, and, and, you know, police like the fact that there's someone there that, you know, is supporting them and they don't have to be everything to everyone. So that was a surprise to me. But good surprise, like real good surprise is the variance within the organisation. Like it's a big organisation and you can have 17 different careers within the one organisation. It's amazing. Like I strongly recommend people check it out if they're looking for a career change. It's, you can be anything you want in there.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  You know, you've just got to, you know, go through the, the, the years of service and you can be anything you want in the New South Wales Police. And there's never been a better time to sign up.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Always recruiting them, Minister.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I'm dedicated, Gemma.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  You've been in this role for three years now. How do you think you're tracking? What's your report card on yourself?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a bit tricky.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I, I usually rely on others to do that for me. Look. I feel there's always more work to do, 100%. And I will keep looking for new technologies and new ways of doing things because that's the sort of police force we want. We want the police force of the future. And if we just keep doing what we're doing, then we won't be that workforce of the future. And I think people of today, like young recruits of today, are very different to those who were signed up 40 years ago. We have to remember that. So it's important that we remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to sign up to the New South Wales Police because they know they can have a long, rewarding career there. How am I reporting? Okay, I'm not trying to avoid the question.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  We're usually our own, our own best critic, so.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that is true. Look, I think that I'm doing okay. I'm still there. I mean, you might recall that many said that, you know, within my first year, I was not going to last very long. Well, I've outlasted most of those people who said that. So that's a positive.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  So there you go.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  After the break, are we actually making progress when it comes to stopping men's violence against women? And why is change in this space taking so long?

• 16:18Speaker 00

  You know the drill. You pick the couch, pay the deposit, then wait 12 weeks praying it matches the living room. Let's skip that. Mamma Mia is giving one lucky subscriber a $5,000 voucher for B2C furniture to spend on pieces that are in stock and ready to ship right now. High-end style, zero weight. To enter, head to mamma mia dot com dot au forward slash subscribe. You'll unlock all our subscriber-only podcasts, articles, and our fitness app, Move. Already subscribed? You're already in the running. Offer ends October 31st. T's and C's apply. I want to start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge topic that we cover here, particularly men's violence against women.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  We talk about it way too often, way too many cases, horrific cases. We know that improving statistics in this space is an uphill battle. And like you mentioned before, it's a systemic issue. It's not just police, it's not just courts, it's kind of a multifaceted area.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  How do you feel about the progress that we've seen in that space since you've taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with DV?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  No, no is the answer to that.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  How depressing is that?

• 17:36Speaker 01

  I say that with a very heavy heart.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  And I say it with a heavy heart because there has never been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence and the crisis end of domestic violence, which was where police intersect, than there is today. And that in itself says, what in the bloody hell is going on?

• 17:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  It's a problem, yeah. Look, in saying that though, let me just tell you a bit about what police are doing, which is certainly, as I say, from more of that crisis end, but they do a bit of prevention as well, so I'll take you through that if that's okay. So they've got a couple of operations which are specific to domestic violence, Operation Emmerok. Now that has occurred just a few weeks ago and some startling results, and I will read them if you don't mind. Operation Emmerok, I should just explain to you, is a targeted operation targeting high-risk domestic violence offenders. So New South Wales Police have the Domestic Violence Command.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  It is the first and only in the country and it is specifically designed to look at those repeat offenders, those recidivist offenders for domestic violence and to have them targeted in operations like this. They also assist every command right around the state. So if there's a domestic violence issue, that all is fed back into the Domestic Violence Command so that they can keep all the data and then use all of that data as intelligence when doing these operations. So just a couple of weeks ago, they run for four days, 993 arrests, 2,063 charges, 14,318

• 19:23Speaker 01

  ADVO compliance checks, 391 breaches identified, 94 firearms and 48 other weapons were seized.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  I mean, isn't that staggering? In four days, almost a thousand arrests with.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  It's a bit depressing, really. I know it's good news, but it's, it's a bit depressing.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  I agree, I agree.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Um, in one state, might I add, might I remind listeners, we're talking about just New South Wales here.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I, I assume other states are doing, you know, something similar, or if not, you know, something the same. But what I might add is, it's not just unique to New South Wales.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  No.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  It is across this country. Um, and that, that too is very concerning. Um, I honestly believe that, um, you know, in, in addition to that, there's another operation called Operation Surge, which is actually run out of, um, commands themselves. So much more targeted in local areas. Again, we see numbers that just, I find staggering. Uh, we also have, because of other legislative changes that we've made around bail and the like, we've got, um, more people, more males on remand than we have ever had. They're bursting at the seams and a third of those are, uh, high-risk domestic violence perpetrators.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  That are on remand?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  On remand, yeah. So they are locked up. Um, but we are still seeing this awful amount of, um, you know, breaches, uh, right around the state when Operation Emiraki's runs. Now, is it, I think, um, the, which is a good thing. Um, police respond to a domestic violence incident every three minutes. That is alarming. But it's also on the flip side, I think, and both the sector and police tell me, uh, women are more likely to report. They feel that they are being heard, that police are responding, and that is a good thing.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  So do you think that could be why we're seeing statistics rise a bit? Because women are, are reporting?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  I think anecdotally, we can say that until we can get some data. Like, we've got to collect data on this stuff, right? So if we look at BOKSAR's statistics, and they are the independent, uh, they record all of the, the Bureau of Crime Statistics. They report that for New South Wales. In most crime categories, in fact, in all crime categories, except for three, crime is going down in New South Wales. New South Wales is the safest state in this country. Except for domestic violence, it's, it's not going up exponentially like it was three years ago when I first came in as Minister, but it's still sexual assault and retail crime is the other one that's going up.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Which would, police again have put in, you know, working with, we're not, don't need to talk about retail crime, maybe for another day.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  But, um, but they're the-

• 22:27Speaker 00

  I care about those first two though.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. Me too.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  Domestic violence and sexual assault going up, like that's-

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep. And that's the trend across the country as well.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  The thing, like, when you were telling me about those operation results, I was like, great. But then the next thing that comes into my brain is, but then these people do get bail. And then they might get AVOs and then they breach those AVOs, like we saw them getting picked up for. But women are killed in that period. When they go back home or when they're released back into the community, that's when women are dying. So what do we do with that? Like, you mentioned that you've kind of helped bail laws. Are we strengthening stuff there? Are we trying to crack down on these AVO breaches? How do we improve that period of a woman's life?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Well, it's identifying all of those markers, which you've just quite rightly pointed out. So, um, it can, there are certain markers that police will use to profile a, you know, serious domestic violence perpetrator, choking. Um, if you've split up, that's a, a, a serious concern. Um, if the, the relationship has ceased. Um, and there are others as well that police use to, as I say, profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator. And, uh, they need to make sure, obviously, they'll have an ADVO out against them.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Um, we need to try to make sure that they are adhering to those, which police do do checks on those, but- It's hard to regulate really bad human behaviour is the truth of it. But I don't think we should give up. That doesn't mean we're giving up. Of course, there are other services in the domestic violence space that also come into play here. And you know, DCJ have a number of different types of preventative and and crisis and safety mechanisms that they put in place for women who are in these very, very vulnerable situations. But I would say this, and this is really important to all those women out there listening.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  If you know something, then say something. I want to use an example of a lovely young woman who I think was in late 2023. So I was only new to the job. She lived in Liverpool and she was murdered at the hands of her partner. They had split up, but he'd come back in to the house. She had a young son. And she was allegedly murdered in his hands in her flat. Now, it turned out that there were at least three or four of her friends that knew that she had been choked before, that she had experienced violence, that she had been abused.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  And I just say to anyone listening, if you know that that is happening, then please say something. And I know that can be uncomfortable. I was only speaking to someone I know recently. And she told me personally about a friend of hers who she believed was being abused behind closed doors. And I said, you have to say something. And she said, oh, I don't know how to bring this up with my friend.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Do you mean say something to the friend or say something to police?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, say something to both, quite frankly. I think, yeah, I do.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Can police help though? Like if I was to go to police and say, my friend is being choked and abused. Wouldn't they say, okay, we'll get your friend to come and report it? Like, how is that? How how is me reporting that going to help my friend?

• 26:09Speaker 01

  I think this is taken a lot more seriously than what it was years ago. And I think if you are reporting something like that, then police will certainly check it out. And it may not, like, let's be honest, there are many priorities that they will be dealing with and it will be in a priority.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  But I think, and they will address it when they can can get to it. But I think.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  If you don't say something and you know something, it could be, you know, that conversation that saves that person's life. And I know they're uncomfortable conversations to have. And I know that it's difficult. And I know that instinctively, we probably think, oh, we shouldn't say anything. But this can no longer be a silent crime that only happens behind closed doors. And it still is. That is the reality. It still is. And even though, you know, I've heard many people say, oh, you know, it's not that crime anymore. It's, Karen Webb told me, it's a silent crime. And it is a silent crime. And it has to stop being a silent crime.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Because I can tell you right now, if thirty six footballers or soccer players or hockey players died on the field over a year, there would be a major inquiry into it.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Well, that's the, the kind of what we keep coming back to. It's like, this is an epidemic. Like, why are we not doing more? But you're saying we're, we're kind of, we're trying to do more.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Well, police are. Police are really, they've got an Empower You app now. So you can actually diarise everything that is occurring in your life. And on that app as well, you can also have a button to send a message to a friend. I need your help. It's in forty different languages. Like, we are trying everything we can to assist. You can use the information that you put on that app as evidence. We've made sure that it's at that level. That was devised with the sector. So everybody had input into it to make sure that it was acceptable and, you know, able to be used. There is now the capacity to be able to, if you dial triple zero,

• 28:22Speaker 01

  you can have a live link with police and a video link with police. So you can talk to them directly. So we're working on how we could adapt that into, you know, using that in much more, just in a safety environment as well. Again, I go back to technology and how important technology is. So police are really doing a lot. And I'm really proud that on their minister and that that is the case.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  But statistics are statistics and.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Quite rightly, as we started this conversation, those statistics are going in the wrong direction.

• 28:58Speaker 00

  Do you, all these things that you've talked about, I'm trying to have a bit of hope here, have we not had enough time to embed those to see the changes? Like, do you think that we could push those statistics down? I know that you're only in charge of police, it's such a, it's one jigsaw piece. But how do we push these statistics down? Like, really?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we're certainly arresting and putting them behind bars. That's the statistics that I can tell you is a statistic of success, in a sense. Like, these high-risk perpetrators are behind bars. Again, we all have a role to play here. We really do. I think that people need to, need to think about, you know, conversations that they have with their friends. And support's great, friendship's wonderful, but I think giving them a nudge to let someone know before it's too late is, is something that, that people should think about.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Let's talk about legislation. Because in 2024, New South Wales criminalised coercive control as a standalone offence.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Have we seen improvements from that? In the space?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, coerc, well, we've had a number of arrests, which is a positive thing. It's, which means the law is working.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Coercive control is the long tail. It can take quite a long time to, for police to be able to get the body of evidence together to then make the charge. But every police officer has been trained in it, so that's a good thing. But, I mean, it's an insidious way of controlling people.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it feels like it's hard to criminalise. Like, what, like, we've got this law, great, but how do we actually put it into practice? Because with the ABC report that I read, that was the year to 2024 July, they had 297 reports of coercive control in that year, nine charges and one conviction. So it's like- The law's great, but we're not seeing the results at the end.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Yep. I think it will take a little bit of time for coercive control to be as intended at its best, for like the laws itself to be used to their full potential. And it's only because, not because police aren't trying, it's awareness, people knowing that they have that as a law and that they can report that type of coercive behaviour as a criminal behaviour. So it's certainly educating people. It's also, as I say, it takes a long time to build that body of evidence and for the prosecutions to then take place. So I think we will review it. There's a review mechanism in the legislation

• 31:49Speaker 01

  and we will review and we will continue to review it. But that's not a good enough reason to get rid of it, Gemma. It's something that I feel very, very strongly about because, you know, it is certainly a precursor that coercive behaviour is also a precursor to homicide. So again, the more people and particularly women know about coercive control and the fact that it is a criminal behaviour and is treated as such in New South Wales, then I think the more that we will see prosecutions in relation to that piece of legislation.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Am I right in saying that you're also trying to make covert stalking a criminal offence?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, we have. That's right. Yeah, 100%. So what we're seeing is in vehicles, men being able to track women in their vehicles, using surveillance equipment to track women as well, obviously on their phones or again in their vehicles. Yes, so stalking is a, will absolutely be a covert offence as well, as it should be.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  So that's something that we're still waiting to kind of go through, everything it needs to go through, or it is an offence?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  It's, it's in our legislation that just went through the House in New South Wales. So

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Soon.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Soon, very soon. Be assented too soon. It's hard to believe as a woman that, you know, you would be surveilled like this by the person that you most trust.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  But the fact we need legislation for it shows it's happening so much.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. And with, you know, consequences, that can be murder. Lock 'em.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Sexual assault, let's talk about that. We know that it's an area that's notoriously hard to get convictions in. We also know that New South Wales Police have a massive backlog of sexual assault investigations. Were you aware of how dire the situation was when you took on the portfolio?

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Uh, look, no, I wasn't, but it's shocking. Um, I, I just, I find, you know, societies, the whole of society with sexual assault, I just find it mind blowing. I can't believe it and I can't believe those statistics are still on the rise. Um, what is going on out there with our young men? I don't understand. Well, not just young men, it's just men generally. And I think that we need to have a podcast chat about that at some point too. Quite frankly, being a girl mum.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Yes, feel you. It's not all men, but it's enough men.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  No, no, that's exactly right. Um, and, you know, I don't want to criticize all blokes. I mean, you know, lots of good blokes and lots of good bloke, blokes that are women champions too, which are fantastic. But, um, sexual assault and the rise of sexual assault is just very, very concerning. Um, the backlogs, um, with police are, you know, it's not okay. We will continue to work though to get through those. The people who are working on those cases take them very, very seriously. Thank goodness. And that's important. I think, I don't think it's always been the case that women have felt that they have been believed. I think that's a fact. So I don't think I'm, you know, saying anything that's not already out there. And that in itself is shocking. Uh, so I think it's very important that they at least feel believed.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  And I'm hopeful again that, that that is why we are seeing an increase because people are coming forward. Uh, police have in recent times developed Sorrow, which is a sexual assault reporting tool. So you can, if you've been the victim of a sexual assault, you can now report that crime on Sorrow. And, uh, you can remain anonymous if you choose. But then if some, you know, to report the incident, but then some time down the track, you might want to actually prosecute and take that to police.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  So you can make that choice later.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, which I think is appropriate.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Well, a lot of people don't make the decision until, you know, years sometimes down the track.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Spot on, that's right. So that's why I mean, I think that's appropriate that you've been able to do that. So that's a good thing. Now, and that, those statistics are added now to the Bureau of Statistics, the, the ones we talked of earlier. So I think that that is a positive as well. But, you know, again, police are at the crisis end and it's the societal problems that we've got to try to look at. Why is this happening? Why are, why do people feel, why do men feel it's okay to assault a woman at any time, anywhere?

• 36:27Speaker 00

  So those wait times, are you suggesting that they're so long because there's so many that they have to get to?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Well, it's

• 36:35Speaker 00

  It's a, it's a men issue of so many instances rather than a police not keeping up with the, the number of reports.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  I think that it's probably a bit of both.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Quite frankly. We have to, we're two and a half thousand cops short and we need to get more bits on the ground and I'm super focused on that. And that's why the recruiting is, is going well at the moment, which is fantastic. But we need, more bits on the ground will mean more cases will be solved. And that's just sheer maths, right?

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Up next, I ask the New South Wales Minister for Police and Counterterrorism about the Bondi terror attack and what her movements were on that day.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Let's move on to the December 2025 terror attack on Bondi Beach. Firstly, I want to ask you, where were you when that was happening and what was your reaction as, as it started to kind of unfold?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  I was at home in the Hunter and the Commissioner called me probably a few minutes after he'd been told and I got in the car immediately and drove to Sydney.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Horror, pure horror, like everyone else.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Disbelief, um, like, is this really happening on our iconic beach? Just before Christmas, like, it was shocking, absolutely shocking. And, um, obviously I was being updated whilst I was driving to Sydney and...

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Where did you drive to? Where were you coming to?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  I went straight to police headquarters.

• 38:15Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  And met the premier there and the police commissioner there. And we got a full briefing and then we did a media stand-up and then we went straight to Bondi. Um, we went to the police station down there, uh, which ironically, um, their Waverley Police Station is being renovated.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  So all of the police were working.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Oh, at Bondi?

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, most of them anyway, because of the renovation going ahead, Rose Bay and Bondi. So there were a lot of police there, as I say, just not necessarily through, just through the fact that this renovation is underway. And as we walked around there, there were police officers from everywhere. Police officers just put on their uniform and got in the car and drove to Bondi. They didn't ring up and ask, they just got in the car and they drove to Bondi. There was one police officer there from the Hunter.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  They'd gotten in the car when you did?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Probably. You know, that's the sort of quality of people that we have in the New South Wales Police.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  So in the wake of this tragedy, you managed to get a bill amended, passed just before Christmas, I think it was Christmas Eve, you got these new laws passed. Can you tell us about why you were so determined to get that through so quickly after the attack?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty easy. People wanted action. They wanted action from their government. They wanted to see that their government was strong, decisive and prepared to do what was required. Removing guns from our community was one of those things that people definitely understood was a positive thing.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Um, making sure that we look at and change the legislation in relation to hate crimes was critically important. And, um, and putting in place, uh, which we've subsequently done, um, with the police, uh, putting in place a special rapid response squad.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  The Bondi Beach terror attack wasn't the first antisemitic attack we'd seen. Jewish Australians have been living in fear since, you know, twenty twenty three.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  So why, why then? Why didn't we do it earlier when they were yelling out for help? Why did it take the attack to change the laws?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good question. And, um, I think if I had my time over again, I would have been having very different conversations with my caucus colleagues and with cabinet colleagues. Um, but I don't, unfortunately, but you're quite right. Uh, you know, the eastern suburbs particularly of our state or our city, um, were experiencing hateful, just hateful. Our hate, well, we called it the summer of hate, in fact, which was the summer of twenty four, and it was absolutely shocking.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  And I was certainly not proud of who we were, you know? I, I go to and have been going for, I've been a member for nearly twelve years. I go to a lot of citizenship ceremonies. And at those ceremonies, a line I always use, because I'm so proud of it, is we welcome you to be part of our multicultural tapestry, which is so successful in this country, in this state and in Lake Macquarie. And I didn't feel like that then. I didn't feel like that then. And I haven't felt like that since October twenty twenty three.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Um, I think Jewish Australians would say the same. They kind of felt like they were yelling and no one was listening.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we put, you know, different things in place, but you're right. They're right.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  Protests. During your tenure, you've been accused of being not heavy-handed enough, too heavy-handed. You've had both sides of the coin. I'm talking about the October 2023 pro-Palestinian protests, and then more recently, the Israeli president visited and you were accused of being too heavy-handed. Did the first kind of reaction inform the second reaction in terms of your approach to those two incidents?

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think for all the right reasons. I mean, those vile scenes down on the steps of the Opera House of flames being set off, burning flags, were viewed around the world. And we were seen, and probably rightly so, as a society that was celebrating the deaths and killings of innocent residents in Israel overseas. I mean, shocking, awful, horrible. And yeah, you bet, it informed every decision made

• 43:15Speaker 01

  from then on, because it's a government's responsibility to keep your community safe. And our Jewish community felt the exact opposite to that. And whilst I, the government, and the police, support protests, we support peaceful protests within the framework of the law.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  But then with these recent ones, when the Israeli president came, I mean, there's been 800 complaints about police heavy-handedness. So did we go too far in the other direction?

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Look, it was a very volatile situation. Obviously, we had the, you know, one group at town hall who were protesting against the Israeli president, who was less than a kilometre away as the crow flies down at the ICC. Again, I just go back to community safety and keeping the community safe. But I will add one other thing to this, and that is that the Protesters on that day, led by Josh Lees, the ones at Town Hall. They had made an agreement with the police that it would not be a march, they would not march, that it would be stagnant, a stagnant protest. They had made that agreement. And then towards the end of their speeches, as I understand it, they were all starting to,

• 44:33Speaker 01

  you know, close up and people had, some people had already started walking off and going home. There was a group that insisted on defying those agreements that had been made and insisted on taking the police on. Now, the police had a job to do there and that was, they'd made it very clear that no one was going to march. They'd been offered different routes, a different place to be, but no, no, no, nothing was good enough. And, you know, at the end of the day, the LEC, the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission, as you say, there's been complaints made to them, eight hundred of them. They will review each and every one of those. And if there was poor behaviour, bad behaviour, et cetera, then that will be called out, as it should be.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  That is why we have the LEC. They are there, it's the only one in the country that specifically looks at our law enforcement arm. We're the only ones that have got it in the country.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Are we?

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yep, so that's their job.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  Because it's independent of the police.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  That's right, hundred percent. And other jurisdictions have other types, but not that just looks at the law enforcement in our state. So that's their job, let them do their job. I will, I, I support our police keeping our community safe on that day. Tensions were high, we needed to take the heat out of it, I would do the same again.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  As that protest made media headlines, we did see actual footage on our TV screens of police being not just heavy-handed, but quite violent with protesters. What was it like for you to watch that?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  There is no place for violence on our streets, zero, I have zero tolerance for it. And it doesn't matter who that is. But that will be investigated by the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission. And if they find any wrongdoing, then those police officers will be dealt with. Equally though, all of that footage will also be looked at by police. And if anybody has broken the law, then they too will be dealt with. There was any number of cameras and body worn cameras on on that particular night. And all of that footage will be used as evidence.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  I need to bring up Claire Nowland because it was a big pressure point for you. For listeners who don't know that name, she was a 95 year old aged care home resident. And she was fatally tasered by a New South Wales officer in 2023. That senior constable has since been found guilty of manslaughter. There was a lot of criticism about your response, the commissioner's response from all kinds of sides. The criticism I'm most interested in is the accusation that you were more focused on defending New South Wales Police during the controversy than acknowledging the kind of public concern about the use of force against a frail older lady. How do you reflect on your handling of that incident?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Um, well, again, the use of any force is an operational matter for the New South Wales Police. And I know some people will go, oh, but I'm not a police officer. I think that's very important that we know that I am not, and I have to be guided by them. I think that it was shocking. That's first and foremost. And I have to say, I said that it was shocking, like, but should it have been used? Shouldn't it have been used? That is a decision that has then been played out, as you say, in the courts. There was a critical investigation also undertaken at the time.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  And LEC were also there. They stand side by side when there's a critical investigation taking place from the police. And rightly so, they are the people who should be determining whether or not or what type of force should be used. Who should have been there? Should they not have been there at all? All of those things obviously are examined. Look, I think, you know, going back to your point before, I get criticised for, you know, doing too much and not doing enough.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Um, I accept that criticism. I, on reflection, again.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  I just think it was shocking that a woman lost her life whilst she was in her nineties. She was very sprightly and I spoke to her family. And I don't know if I've told anyone that I've spoken to her family, to be honest with you. And she may have been that age, but she certainly was still very, according to them, very fit, still very wither. I mean, she was jumping out of a plane not that many years before, believe it or not, parachuting. So she was clearly a woman of spirit and had lived life to the fullest. And is that the way that you'd want, you know, your grandma or your mum or your aunt or family member to go and be remembered? No, absolutely not. It was shocking.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Why did you decide to speak to her family?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  I felt that on behalf of the government that that's very important. I speak to lots of victims, families, family members.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Were they appreciative of hearing from you, given that it was a police officer that killed their mum?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  They were very polite and very, a beautiful family, a very big family because there were lots of kids. But they were a beautiful family, yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  So in the wake of Claire's death, an organisation did reach out across Australia and offer dementia training to police officers. Do you think that that could be an important area? Because I know that New South Wales is yet to take up that offer, only the Northern Territory has.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Oh, look, it might be something that law enforcement could look at. I do know they do have a lot of different modules that they deal with down at Goulburn during that training period. For instance, Autism Australia provides some assistance, which is really useful, particularly when a child with autism goes missing. There are certain things that you should put in place specifically for people, young people with autism, which was fascinating, I found it fascinating, and a whole host of other types of modules, addressing specific groups as well. So it's certainly something that we could mention and look at.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  This criticism of, you know, I'm saying in quotations, the too heavy-handed and defending police of being heavy-handed, that seems to come up a lot, you know, the protests, Claire Nowland. Can you see where it's coming from? Do you see that criticism's point of view?

• 51:02Speaker 01

  I can see that people are saying that and why they're saying that.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Again, police are our law enforcement officers and we don't want them doing the wrong thing, that's for sure. And they will be called out if they are, you know, and we've seen that over and over again. Just in the short time that I've been the minister, there have been a number of police removed from the New South Wales Police Force because of excessive force or bad behaviour or both. And as they should be, quite frankly, that's just in short three years. So, you know, it is a case that it's not defending or standing

• 51:50Speaker 01

  up for excessive force. No way in the world. We should not have violence on our streets and violence on our streets should definitely not be from police officers. And as I say, if that is the case, then the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission will investigate that and will provide recommendations. As they should, that's what their job is. The New South Wales Police is the organisation that people will pick up the phone to ring triple zero when they need them. And I have to say that that is most people's interaction with police. Now, your listeners might sit here and think that I'm defending them yet again, but that's just a reality. They go to nearly 2 million, they get nearly 2 million calls a year.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  That's insane numbers, isn't it?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, I get that and we hear a lot about the bad behaviour and we hear a lot about use of force. And again, call it out if that is the case.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Because you should. But in some context, then I would say, remember also that the 20,000 police officers or people in the New South Wales Police that we have out there, it's a large organisation, 99% of them are not doing that.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Youth crime, another very hot topic at the moment, all over the country, really. I know we're talking about New South Wales, but our listeners are from everywhere. And it is, you know, you see it playing out in Melbourne and Victoria and Queensland. We're constantly hearing about regional crime waves involving young people.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  This is something that you've recently tackled with some legislation. Can you talk us through what those changes are and what you're hoping we'll see from them?

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if you don't mind, I'll just start at the beginning. And again, this was coming into the cabinet room and our cabinet is 50% women. And this youth crime wave began. Anyway, we're sitting around and, you know, these new set of eyes sitting there going, well, hold up, this just isn't all police. Like, we just can't arrest our way out of this. This is a problem and these are young people who we need to put on a different path. So, speaking to the Attorney General, the Minister for Corrections, Juvenile Justice, et cetera, et cetera. There's about six of us in the portfolios, right? And so we're like, yeah, we've got to do something else than just arrest these kids. There has to be more to this.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  So that's why we made the legislative changes. So police made some changes. They had Operation Soteria and Operation Sweetnham, which is Sweetnham is here in the city, in metropolitan areas. Operation Soteria is out in our regional areas. And that was a real focus on hot crime spot areas. So that was important. And that took a lot of the ringleaders out of the equation and, you know, touch wood. We haven't been, it is a lot more under control as we sit here today. But some other areas of concern were the posting and boasting. So they were stealing cars and going on joy rides, filming it and then posting it. So that is now an offence.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Break and enter into a home. So they are so brazen, breaking and entering into a home. Filming that in some instances as well, like while people are sleeping with a knife over their head and the like, like horrific.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  These are teenagers. It's just wild.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Well, young teenagers, some of them like. Eleven, twelve, thirteen.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  That's crazy to me.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  I know, I know. I was still playing with Barbie, I think.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  I know me too. I was nowhere near a knife, but anyway.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Um, no, me either. Um, also, I would have got into massive trouble. Like, I, if you weren't in bed asleep, then you would have got into big trouble at my house. There's those changes that we've made. Um, oh, so to break and enters, um, then you, the judge has to consider whether or not to give you bail or not. So we're seeing that change, which has been good. But the thing that's most significant is the funding that we've sent through, through all of us, uh, working together, the funding that we've injected into those communities for preventative and proactive, um, results, and we're getting some really good results, which is fantastic, we're told by locals on the ground, so that's good.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Uh, and we're also in Maurey, uh, building the, the place-based facility there, where if you have a recidivist offender, they can choose to go there and they'll have wraparound services, et cetera. So, um, they'll be safe. They'll get, uh, the care they need and we'll have health there as well, education. So the services will be wrapped around them and we hope to really steer those young people away from crime to a better life.

• 56:48Speaker 00

  And it sounds like we're already seeing some results there.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  I think so. I, I think it's, um, I don't want to get too, um, uh, you know, talk it up too much. There's always more work to do. Like, you know, there's crime in, in these little rural towns, or big rural towns really, and, and remote and regional areas. Um, but we're seeing some green shoots.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Um, police are saying that, community is saying that. Like, you can't just go into a community and do this, that and the other. And I think that's the thing that this government has done really well. We've worked with the community. So local government will be at the table, the local services will be at the table, education, health, you name it. We work collaboratively and, um, I have travelled this state with police doing exactly that, working with the community stakeholders for solutions. We're not here to point the finger, we're not here to do anything but solutions. And. If we can change some of those young people's lives out of the criminal justice

• 57:52Speaker 01

  system onto a successful life, then wow, what a wonderful legacy that would be.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  What about systemic bias against Indigenous people in our country? Are we seeing any green shoots in the right direction there? Because that is an issue that we've had for years, decades, long before you ever took, you know, these portfolios. But last year, New South Wales recorded near record Indigenous deaths in custody. What do we do with that information? How do we fix this?

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Well, you're quite right. Also, our rates of incarceration are increasing, and particularly women.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  We have to continue to keep working away at this. I want to say this, though. My mate, the Minister for the Community Services, Kate Washington,

• 58:42Speaker 01

  she has, and she's one of those women that sits around that table with me, banging the table. She, um, she has, there are now no children living in hotels who are in out of home care. Now, there were more than a hundred when we came to government. And these were kids who were too hard, too difficult, kids that had been, had horrible, awful lives. So we're chipping away. We're chipping away. And a lot of those kids would have been First Nations kids, to be fair. So she's doing great work, amazing work in that area. But there's so much to do. I have to be honest with you, Gemma, there is so much to do.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  There is a lot of societal need. And I think working as a group and bouncing stuff off each other and working collaboratively instead of just working in silos is making some difference. I get it that people think it's a glacial pace, but we really are just digging away, digging away. Like, everything that happens in police world, I'm like, that's the crisis end. So I'm in there so as police don't have to do that, so they're out doing other stuff. Because that's the, the goal, right?

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Not to be locking up kids.

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  Very true.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  That's the goal.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, obviously, I don't know that I'll ever be able to meet that absolute goal. But putting kids on a different pathway, um, you know, giving, I, I, we were up in, um, Tamworth with the Premier, actually, making an announcement about a significant investment into youth services. And there was a group up there, and I just can't recall their name now, but I'll come back to you with the name of them. And they were, they had indigenous kids and they were setting them on a pathway of, uh, into jobs. And their success rates were fantastic. These are the sorts of organisations that the Premier and I assist supporting, um, because they've got, you know, they're not just doing a service and you don't sort

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  of see any outcomes. They're actually delivering the goods. And that's what you want to see. And the kids were there, the young, young men, they're all young men. And I was sitting chatting with them and they were just telling me it was fantastic, you know, yeah, helping them get their licence, helping them, the things we all take for granted, many of us. Um, and these kids don't have the role models in the, or, or the stable family life that we take for granted. And having people in community replacing those roles is critical. Um, they're the biggest hearted, most valuable people that you'd ever wish to meet. And they are wrapping themselves around these kids, assisting them to leave crime and to

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  go on a pathway away from crime and to be a success. Amazing.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Ivan Mulatt, it's a name most listeners will know. Uh, he's come up a lot in some of the cold cases that have been covered in New South Wales. We've had a lot of missing and murdered women. And his name has popped up as a potential kind of perpetrator in those cases. And now we're looking at a New South Wales Parliamentary Inquiry into some of those cases. I know that you don't have much involvement in that inquiry, but as Police Minister, what are your thoughts on it and what's, what has been your involvement in it?

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Jeremy Buckingham is the lead on, on this inquiry. And I have actually worked closely with Jeremy as the Police Minister in terms of having him be briefed by senior police, making sure that he is aware of what the work police are doing. I think it's often the case that we don't understand or don't have any knowledge of what police are actually doing in the, the background because they don't tell us much.

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  It's all secret.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  With good reason.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Correct, correct. So in saying that though, when there's an inquiry like this, because it was quite broad reaching and we have to make sure that we don't use, you know, all the police resources that we've got on that whilst over here, we've got, you know, domestic violence, public place shootings.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Counter-terrorism issues, all of that sort of stuff. I don't think I need to describe to your listeners, well, the work that they do.

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  Priorities.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh yeah. Your listeners know priorities, all right? They're a woman, a mother.

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  A wife, all of that, a daughter. Got to make sure you fit mum and dad in at some time as well. So I have actually assisted a lot to make sure that he has been fully briefed and that the scope of the inquiry is quite specific. So that's a good thing.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  But it doesn't waste, like you say, resources, time, et cetera.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Spot on. That's right. Yeah. So that's great when it gets going and the, the scope is quite specific and police are more than happy to work with him. Like from our perspective, we're more than happy to work with him. There'll be other people coming in, of course, but into the inquiry. But yeah, no, police have, I, I think that he would say that they've been fantastic.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  It is crazy to think that we're going to have an inquiry into Ivan Mulatt. He's been dead many years now. His crimes were, you know, a few decades ago.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, police haven't discounted though that there may be other murders that they discover that he has been part of. So I, I do know that for sure. So they're quite. But, you know, open minded about, you know, if they do find any that they've got the evidence there to be able to make the links, like when we were talking about having the evidence, making sure we keep all of the evidence, um, you know, in, you know, a state that's easy to find. Um, and we put a lot of money into doing that, which is great. Prior to the special commission of inquiry, uh, by Justice Saka, uh, there was evidence

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  in different locations around the state. Uh, we've now brought all of that together, which is critically important and it's all been properly logged, et cetera.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  I'm curious about the personal side of this job because as we've touched on, it is one that attracts a lot of criticism. You know, a lot of anger from members of the public. Has your personal safety or your family's personal safety been something you've had to think about?

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Sadly, yes.

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, but don't you find that, you know, people are so willing now to be a keyboard warrior and say whatever the bloody hell they want behind a screen?

• 1:05:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, hundred percent. Um, I, I'm pretty, I'm just pretty tough, right?

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  And if somebody wants to say something to me, come and say it to me. I'll have the conversation with you and whether we agree or not, that's fine. Um, but I don't walk away from my problems. I don't walk away from, um, if I've done something wrong, I'll admit it. I don't walk away from anything. Um, and that's just who I am. I think growing up in a working class family with not much and that's just who I am. But if you've got a criticism of me, um, you know, come and, and see me. My family are not in this job. It's my job. My staff, they're not open game either. I worry about them. Um, there are a lot of people out there who are, that

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  type things that I don't think those words would ever exit their mouth and they're vile, they're offensive and they're threatening.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Which is not fair. You're just doing your job.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  True. Yeah. I, look, I'm not alone, unfortunately. I think public figures.

• 1:06:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Generally, um, are probably receiving more vitriol than ever before. And I mean, good, we've seen murders, you know, in both the UK. That young, um, MP that was out doing a street stall got stabbed. We saw the, in, um, America, um, shooting like.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  I I hope to God we never see that here. But again, if you know of anyone who's doing it, then call it out. Like, I saw that stuff on the the the um thing about Jacinda Allan down in Ditch the Witch. You know what? That is wrong. Call it out. And I say this, go back, this is a lesson I learned from the Jewish community, quite frankly. Go back to our conversation and back to two thousand and twenty three. And they felt vulnerable and they felt like they were being attacked. And listen to them. Listen to them and act. Don't accept it.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Don't accept it for women because it's that sort of behaviour that leads to the type of behaviour that we talked about. The control, the behaviours, ultimately it could be the death of a woman. If we don't call all this stuff out, then shame on us.

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  Lastly, Yasmin, what do you want True Crime Conversations listeners to walk away from after listening to us? Because every week they're hearing about the most horrible things that humans can do to other people. And often, unfortunately, they're also hearing about, you know, issues that the victims or families are coming up against with police or courts or perpetrators getting back out. What do you want them to take from hearing about the inside process of what it means to change the systems?

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  It's a pretty simple message for me and it's, um. If you see something that does not sit right with you, then report it. That means if you see a person treating someone wrong, report it or say something to someone. If you see a police officer doing the wrong thing, do the same. If you see anybody harassing a person because of their race or their sexuality or that they're a female, say something. If we don't stand up for one another and become that society that look after each other, then we will continue to disintegrate.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  So you think even within those systems, the police systems speak up if it's not working for you, if the court systems?

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Yes, hundred percent. There are so many oversight bodies there to look at these things. Go to your local member. I mean, I'm a local member at the end of the day. And I have people coming in telling me all sorts of grievances with whoever it is. It's usually the last port of call, you know, they, people are frustrated and they've called this one and done this and done that. And they've just like hit a brick wall and then they end up in my office on the Pacific Highway at Swansea. They come in and I say, well, sit down and let's go through it. So we do. And it's important that you do do that and maybe you may not get the result that you were looking for, but you'll certainly have it looked at. That's what's important.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  And you need to know that in a democracy, in our democracy, that you have the ability to do that because of our electoral system, that we, our voting system. The person that is there that you elected will stand up for you.

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  I think that's a good place to end. Thank you for joining us, Yasmin.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  It's been a pleasure.

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  Thank you to Yasmin Catley for joining us on this episode. If you liked this episode, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to let us know. And if you aren't following us on TikTok and Instagram, our handle is True Crime Conversations. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.