Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Stephen Reitz About this episode Stephen Reitz invoked a sleepwalking defense after he was charged with killing a woman during a weekend getaway. He claimed he woke up from a dream that he was fighting off an intruder and discovered her body. Investigators doubted his story, especially when they uncovered evidence about his tumultuous relationship with the victim.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Stephen Reitz. Could a person really commit a savage murder during a sleepwalking incident, or is it a convenient way to explain a cold-blooded murder? That is what a jury was tasked with deciding in the case of Stephen Reitz.
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1:48 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 421 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:59 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
2:00 Speaker 00 I'm doing great. You know, you and I just talked on our Patreon about the crazy weather patterns we're having here in Ohio, and I'm sure people are in other parts of the country as well. We also talked about the, what appears to be a proliferation of just very good television shows.
2:20 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
2:21 Speaker 00 On right now.
2:22 Speaker 01 There is.
2:22 Speaker 00 Or have just wrapped up, or, you know, there's so many streaming services out that there seems to be no shortage of good TV right now.
2:31 Speaker 01 Working on my own TV. I'm doing a.
2:34 Speaker 00 Like TV set or TV show?
2:37 Speaker 01 TV show.
2:37 Speaker 00 Okay. Are you building your own television?
2:40 Speaker 01 I'm, I'm gonna rewrite the, all the Barnaby Jones series.
2:46 Speaker 00 Okay. I feel like that would.
2:47 Speaker 01 Bring up the date.
2:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, I feel like that would be a hit in, uh, 2025.
2:52 Speaker 01 Yeah. Barnaby Jones, Jr.
2:55 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Ann Barbara.
2:58 Speaker 01 Hey, Ann.
2:59 Speaker 00 Jennifer Rubin.
3:00 Speaker 01 What's up, Jennifer?
3:01 Speaker 00 Andy from Iowa.
3:02 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks, Andy.
3:03 Speaker 00 Emily Lucas.
3:04 Speaker 01 What's going on, Emily?
3:05 Speaker 00 Stephanie King.
3:06 Speaker 01 Uh, hi, Stephanie.
3:07 Speaker 00 Phyllis Franklin Nunley.
3:09 Speaker 01 Thanks, Phyllis Franklin.
3:10 Speaker 00 Aaron DeWol.
3:12 Speaker 01 What are you doing, Aaron?
3:13 Speaker 00 Christopher Schimmel.
3:15 Speaker 01 Hey, Christopher.
3:16 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Leslie Anton.
3:19 Speaker 01 Oh, there's Leslie.
3:20 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Jessica Feeney.
3:26 Speaker 01 Feeney in the house.
3:27 Speaker 00 Yeah. Appreciate the new support, the continued support. So, right now, on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, we have out an episode, which is part two on the Zodiac Killer. We talk about the Zodiac's last confirmed murder, more of the killer's correspondence, and some additional suspected Zodiac cases.
3:51 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's good stuff.
3:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
3:53 Speaker 01 And when we do part three, we're gonna have a special guest.
3:57 Speaker 00 We are. None other than Morph himself will come on to give his take. So, that's already set in stone. A lot of people have asked for it, so we're making it happen. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?
4:13 Speaker 01 I am ready.
4:14 Speaker 00 We're talking about Steven Wright's. Steven Wright invoked a sleepwalking defense. After he was charged with killing a woman during a weekend getaway. He claimed that he woke up from a dream that he was fighting off an intruder. And then discovered her body. Investigators doubted his story, especially when they started to uncover some incriminating evidence. Are you a person who remembers a lot of their dreams?
4:46 Speaker 01 Um, no.
4:48 Speaker 00 Me neither. It's very rare that I remember my dream.
4:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:54 Speaker 00 My wife, almost every night has a dream in which I am doing something that ticks her off. And that carries over to the next day and she is somehow mad for what I have done in the dream.
5:07 Speaker 01 Of course, because you betrayed her.
5:09 Speaker 00 I did. I did something bad.
5:12 Speaker 01 I do have this recurring dream that you keep wanting to buy me dinner every time I'm over here. And I believe that dream.
5:22 Speaker 00 That dream comes true every week.
5:24 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's a good dream.
5:26 Speaker 00 Forty-two-year-old Eva Marie Weinferner was a jewelry artist from Coronado, California. Eva's niece, Lanell Pirro, told Dateline, Eva was always living like she was 22. Carefree, very young for her age. She was fun. She was generous and she'd light up a room. She's the person you call and no matter what, you always feel better for what she had to say. And I would say, you know, everyone needs someone like that in their life.
5:57 Speaker 01 Everybody needs an Eva.
5:58 Speaker 00 Well, hopefully, maybe it's one of your parents. It's an aunt, it's an uncle. Maybe it's just a really good friend, but someone who you know, when you call them up on the phone, you're going to feel better after the conversation.
6:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's so important, right? I mean, someone that can lift you up, make you feel better than you did when, before you called.
6:21 Speaker 00 Yeah. Eva was married twice. She worked as a flight attendant for years and her husband Carl was a pilot. Fellow flight attendant April Bozard told Dateline that people were drawn to Eva. She was welcoming and generous towards everyone. She was also a restless person and couldn't stand boredom.
6:43 Speaker 01 Well, we all know somebody like that.
6:46 Speaker 00 Hmm. Yeah, I live with one.
6:48 Speaker 01 I know, I was getting ready to say, there's one upstairs.
6:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, my wife is so restless in that she always has to be doing something. Now me, I can, I can just be, but she, she just can't do that.
7:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:05 Speaker 00 It was difficult for Eva to settle down after she quit her flight attendant job. April recalled, I think she was looking for excitement in other ways. It was almost like, let me stir the pot a little. So this is a person who's described as restless and then quits her flight attendant job. Kind of makes sense that she was probably struggling. She's not, you know, finding the excitement that she had previously.
7:37 Speaker 01 She's not gonna sit on the couch and just watch TV or play games or whatever, right? She wants to do something. She wants to keep busy.
7:45 Speaker 00 By 2001, Eva was separated from her husband. In January of that year, she started seeing 25-year-old Steven Wright. According to Dateline, Steven had several jobs, including part-time work as a commercial fisherman. And I know that's something that you've done before. You were in fact, the inspiration for the Gortons Fisherman.
8:13 Speaker 01 Well, that is all true. I was the head hooker on the boat.
8:19 Speaker 00 Is that what they called it? The head hooker?
8:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:22 Speaker 00 I doubt it. But you said it was such confidence that it made it sound like you knew what you were talking about.
8:28 Speaker 01 Hey, we did have a, and do have a group of listeners that play the podcast on their boat.
8:34 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, who are commercial fishermen.
8:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely.
8:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, and they all listen together.
8:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:41 Speaker 00 Eva met Steven when he came over to hang out with her son. She called her niece Linnell that same day and said she met a nice, good-looking guy. Despite their 17-year age gap, Steven and Eva were attracted to each other and quickly developed a romantic relationship that lasted about 10 months.
9:02 Speaker 01 That's when somebody really says, you know, hey, your mom's really hot. They took it to the next level.
9:09 Speaker 00 Well, it did seem strange to me, right? That he's coming over to see her son and then the next thing you know, they're attracted to each other and they're involved in a relationship. Eva's friend, April Bozard, hoped that she would reconcile with her husband, but then she learned about the affair with Steven. According to April, Steven was available to do whatever Eva wanted to do because he didn't work regularly. So they went on a lot of trips together. She also said that Steven was a trophy to Eva because he was so much younger. She told her friend to be cautious.
9:45 Speaker 01 Trophy boyfriend. You're kind of like a trophy husband.
9:48 Speaker 00 Hardly. But you know, the fact of the matter is, men have been doing this for many, many years.
9:56 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely.
9:57 Speaker 00 So, you know, you can't look at a woman doing it and say, oh, my gosh, what is she doing?
10:04 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, I'm sure some of her friends probably called her a cougar.
10:10 Speaker 00 Maybe.
10:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:11 Speaker 00 Now, Steven was aware Eva was married, but knew that it was a quote on again, off again marriage. Lynell Piro said that Eva did love her husband and wanted to reconcile, but the affair continued. It was hard for Eva to stay away from Steven. So there was attraction there, no doubt. And when you are supremely attracted to someone, Gibbs, it can be hard to stay away from them, even when you know, deep down, it's not really a good situation for you.
10:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:48 Speaker 00 And I would say, if you're trying to reconcile with your partner, continuing the affair is not going to be in the best interest of that goal.
11:00 Speaker 01 You either commit or you don't.
11:02 Speaker 00 Eva was open with a few people about the affair, but she did keep the full extent of their relationship secret. Eva's relatives became concerned about her safety when they saw bruises on her body and bite marks on her legs. She said the bruises were caused by a combination of her own clumsiness and Steven being rough during sex. Okay. Hey, people are into all kinds of things. I'm not going to go into all of it.
11:33 Speaker 01 Well, definitely a way to get some bumps and bruises.
11:36 Speaker 00 You know, can people bite? Can people do things like that? Yes. But this would not be the first time. And in fact, it's happened so many times over the years, where women have felt as though they needed to make up some excuse for why they were bruised up or, you know, had a black eye or, or, you know, whatever. When it turned out they were being physically abused, but they weren't comfortable revealing that fact.
12:10 Speaker 01 No, no.
12:11 Speaker 00 Why is that? Probably because they felt like nothing was going to happen. And if they told on their abuser, that was going to come back on them.
12:23 Speaker 01 I think a lot of them just feel like they have so little control.
12:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, almost like a helpless feel.
12:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:29 Speaker 00 Eva told her niece, Lanell Pira, and her friend, Alana Bass, that one bruise on her thigh was caused by Steven biting her. She also told her niece that, once while they were watching TV, Steven grabbed her by the throat and said, "Stop fucking looking at me like that." And this comes directly from the People vs. Rights.
12:54 Speaker 01 Okay.
12:55 Speaker 00 Now, this seems to me to be a far cry from being a little rough during sex. This is a pretty violent act.
13:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think the playfulness went out the window.
13:09 Speaker 00 When you're grabbing your partner by the throat, you're cursing at them, for what? Looking at you? Eva told her other niece, Annette Mason, that she once woke up to Steven on top of her choking her. He thought there was an intruder in the house. Eva admitted she was afraid of Steven because of this incident.
13:33 Speaker 01 That would freak me out, if you wake up and your partner's on top of you choking you.
13:37 Speaker 00 The part where I was a little confused was that he thought there was an intruder in the house. So does that mean he thought Eva was the intruder? First of all, what intruder climbed into bed with you? And you're just gonna roll over on that person and start choking them? I'm not saying it's a lie, but it's a tough thing to believe.
14:04 Speaker 01 It's a hard sell.
14:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, it is a hard sell. She also told her friend and her son that she was afraid of him. So she told a number of people that she was afraid of Steven Rights. Eva confided in her friend, Alana, that she knew Steven would kill her if she stayed with him, but she couldn't leave. Because she said he was like a drug to her.
14:30 Speaker 01 So strange to hear that.
14:32 Speaker 00 It is, but I know it happens. You know, people are in toxic relationships. Relationships that really are not good for either party. But it's like they can't stay away from each other. They're, they're so attracted to each other that the toxicity of the relationship, the bad things that are happening, it's like they don't outweigh the attraction.
15:00 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's really sad because you know, they know better.
15:03 Speaker 00 Well, I think by and large, most people know when a situation is bad for them. But by the same token, people know smoking is bad for you.
15:12 Speaker 01 Sure.
15:13 Speaker 00 People know that certain drugs are bad for you. They can kill you. It doesn't keep them from doing it.
15:20 Speaker 01 No, no.
15:21 Speaker 00 Eva went to a psychic at one point and didn't tell the woman anything about her life. The psychic told her she was in a relationship with a younger man who was not her husband and warned her, if you don't break it off, he will kill you.
15:38 Speaker 01 How eerie is that?
15:39 Speaker 00 Well, it's very eerie if it's true. You and I have talked about psychics before. I know some people really believe in psychics, some not so much.
15:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:52 Speaker 00 The, there are, I do believe there are charlatans, people who ask enough questions, get enough general information to make some predictions. But if this really went down the way that it was painted, gave no information and this psychic just comes out with this? Okay.
16:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:15 Speaker 00 That's pretty scary and it will turn out to be pretty prophetic. On April 18th, 2001, Steven showed up to Eva's apartment. He was upset and she asked him to leave. They exchanged words as he left. Sometime later, she saw him on her third floor balcony. He broke the window and entered her apartment with a knife. He threatened Eva, saying, I'm gonna cut a man. I'm gonna, I'm gonna gut him like a fish and I'm gonna name him Eva.
16:51 Speaker 01 Okay, that's kinda strange.
16:54 Speaker 00 I mean, this is some Alfred Hitchcock shit here that we're dealing with.
16:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:58 Speaker 00 This is Norman Bates sitting in the rocking chair, wearing his mother's night dress.
17:05 Speaker 01 But you have to be scared now. I mean, he's just telling you, I'm gonna go gut somebody, I'm gonna pretend that it's you.
17:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, if you, and we already know she was scared, but if you weren't scared before, this would scare the you-know-what out of you. Eva ran out of the apartment and asked a security guard to call the police. She told the responding officer she was in a relationship with Steven, and there had been two prior domestic incidents. She also called her estranged husband Carl and told him what happened. Steven fled, and the police were still looking for him when she called. So obviously, she's very freaked out because she makes this call to her estranged husband, and that couldn't have been an easy call.
17:51 Speaker 01 No.
17:52 Speaker 00 But it shows you, I think, how scared she was.
17:54 Speaker 01 She had to be, she had to be to make that call.
17:57 Speaker 00 Cause she has to tell him, right? Basically, hey, this 25-year-old guy that I'm having sex with is threatening me. And as the husband, you're like, ooh, okay, I don't want anything to happen to my wife. Well, at the same time, I am not happy that this 25-year-old is, you know, in the rumpus room with
18:22 Speaker 01 With your wife?
18:23 Speaker 00 With my wife.
18:24 Speaker 01 And wouldn't you be also like, hey, I thought we were working on our relationship here?
18:28 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, I don't know what the dynamic was there.
18:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:31 Speaker 00 So I don't know if they were talking about getting back together or what. Steven was arrested that same evening for driving under the influence. Eva quickly bailed him out, and the relationship continued.
18:45 Speaker 01 That. Blows my mind, but we know that happens.
18:49 Speaker 00 It does happen, but is it because she's so attracted to him, right? She made that statement. He was like a drug to her. She just couldn't quit him regardless of what was going on, the threats, the fear. She just couldn't give him up. I, I don't know. I, I don't know what else it could have been.
19:13 Speaker 01 And I'm sure he had a way of being persuasive. Okay, baby. I didn't mean to do all that.
19:19 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. You know, he did. That would never happen again. You know, the things that people say. Eva moved back in with her husband at an unspecified date to attempt to repair their marriage. And to me, Gibbs, this kind of seems like a turning point, right? There's no doubt a relationship between her and Steven is toxic. It makes me think that she realized that, hey, I can't keep seeing this guy. He's bad for me. He's going to kill me. I'm going to try to get back with my husband.
19:53 Speaker 01 And her husband obviously agreed and said, come on, move back in.
19:56 Speaker 00 On September 28th, 2001, Eva called her friend April, who was about to have a baby and said she would like to come visit. On Sunday, the 30th, April agreed to pick her up. Eva's husband had also invited her on a trip to Catalina Island when he returned from a flight the following week. She accepted because she wanted to repair their marriage.
20:20 Speaker 01 Catalina. What's your first thought when you hear the word Catalina?
20:24 Speaker 00 Catalina wine mixer?
20:27 Speaker 00 From Step Brothers?
20:30 Speaker 01 I'll never think of Catalina the same anymore.
20:32 Speaker 00 No, that's all I can think about.
20:35 Speaker 01 Well, it seems like she's trying to make an effort.
20:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, you would think so, but she also told him that she was going to Catalina Island that weekend with a friend, but she was really going with Steve. Steven would claim the last minute trip was Eva's idea. She made the reservations and purchased ferry tickets.
20:55 Speaker 00 So again, she's trying to reconcile with her husband, but is the temptation of Steven just too much for her, you know, as she described it, like a drug to her and she just couldn't say no?
21:11 Speaker 01 Appears so.
21:12 Speaker 00 April never heard from Eva on September 30th, which she thought was unusual. At 1:00 a.m. on October 1st, 2001, Steven called his parents and said, he might have killed Eva. His father called the police. Okay, now, parents get a lot of strange phone calls from their kids.
21:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:34 Speaker 00 I've received quite a few that left me kind of dazed and confused, but not once has either of my daughters called me and said, you know what? I think I might have just killed somebody.
21:47 Speaker 01 Right. I don't know how you would handle that.
21:50 Speaker 00 It's gonna be a tough conversation.
21:51 Speaker 01 It is.
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24:20 Speaker 00 In October 2001, LA County Sheriff's Detective Richard Tomlin and his partner Ken Gallatin took a helicopter to Catalina Island in the early morning hours. This was the first murder on the island in two decades.
24:35 Speaker 01 Wow.
24:36 Speaker 00 So you're talking 20 years.
24:38 Speaker 01 Long time.
24:39 Speaker 00 They heard that Stephen had gone to the fire station to report that Eva was injured and he may have killed her. Paramedics went to their hotel, but it was too late. Eva's body was still in the hotel room. Her jaw was broken in three places. She suffered a skull fracture, a dislocated shoulder, and a broken elbow and wrist. She was stabbed multiple times in the neck near her spinal column.
25:09 Speaker 01 This is brutal.
25:10 Speaker 00 No, it sounds absolutely brutal. I've never had a broken jaw. I assume it's extremely painful and hard to eat afterwards. But her jaw was broken in three different places.
25:27 Speaker 01 I mean, to say to his dad and to the paramedics, I might have killed her. How do you not know you definitely killed her?
25:35 Speaker 00 Well, I also thought it was strange that he went to the fire station.
25:39 Speaker 01 Right.
25:39 Speaker 00 But a small pocket knife was found near her body and a large flower pot was shattered by her head. Shards of the pottery were embedded in her scalp. Detectives wondered how no one heard the attack, which had to have lasted, you know, several minutes. Who knows how long it took, but obviously they must have combed neighbors and nobody heard anything. Steven was cooperative and agreed to speak to the police. He said they came to Catalina Island to party. There was a half empty bottle of tequila on a table as well as several empty beer bottles
26:22 Speaker 00 and a $5 bill rolled up with cocaine residue. There were cards on the table and a scorebook with the results of several games of gin rummy. And that sounds like a Gibby Saturday night, if I've ever heard one.
26:38 Speaker 01 A little gin rummy?
26:39 Speaker 00 No, tequila, coke and gin rummy.
26:43 Speaker 01 Hey, don't leave the beer out.
26:45 Speaker 00 Oh, and some beer. According to Dateline, Steven said, "I woke up looking at Eva's body on the ground." He said he dreamed about being in a conflict. When asked what the conflict was about, he said, "You know, I think it could have been about an intruder or something." I'm thinking, "I knew I felt threatened for some reason, but it had nothing to do with Eva. I wasn't dreaming about Eva." According to Detective Richard Tomlin, Steven said he was sitting on the bed and Eva was alive and moaning. He saw the wounds at her neck. Steven said in his interview,
27:25 Speaker 00 "It began to occur to me that I was responsible for that because of the wounds. That was what I used to do, shark fishing."
27:35 Speaker 01 Okay, wow.
27:37 Speaker 00 He explained that at his commercial fishing job, they killed sharks by severing the spinal cord. He thought he must have done the same to Eva when he thought she was an intruder. And he claimed that he just had vague flashes of memory and no memories of the actual attack. He said, I see bits and flashes, but I don't, you know, I really, I mean, it's hard to believe, but I also have other roommates that have watched me sleepwalk.
28:10 Speaker 01 So he's bringing in the sleepwalk.
28:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, he revealed that he experienced sleepwalking episodes since childhood and must have killed Eva during one of these episodes. So I want to take a step back for a minute. You know, this notion that you're dreaming about an intruder. Could that happen? Yeah, I would say the answer is yes.
28:33 Speaker 01 Of course.
28:34 Speaker 00 But this story, it jumps out at me for a number of reasons. You know, first of all, like I said, you know, the intruder is laying in bed with you, not on top of you, fighting you. But then it's like he reverts to his commercial fishing experience in trying to sever the spinal cord.
28:59 Speaker 01 Cause he thinks it's a shark or?
29:02 Speaker 00 I don't know. Now I've done some strange things after being woken up.
29:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:07 Speaker 00 My youngest, who doesn't shy away from telling anyone this story, loves to talk about the time that she came in to wake me up because she said it was time to go to school and I drove her to school. And apparently I took a wild swing at her. When she was a little kid, she was pretty small. And I threw a haymaker and she backed up just in time. I don't know why I got scared or, or whatever it was.
29:36 Speaker 01 Well, thank goodness you missed.
29:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, that would not have gone over well. So Stephen begins talking about his sleepwalking episodes, going all the way back to childhood. At one point, he said, I woke up and I began to get conscious of the situation. And I realized it was Eva on the ground and I looked around and I couldn't believe it was her. And I think I might have killed Eva in my sleep.
30:05 Speaker 01 Well, either you did or you didn't.
30:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think that's pretty fair to say. I don't think he's disputing the fact that he killed her. The question is, was he aware of what he was doing? Or did this happen during some type of dreamlike slash sleepwalking state? He insisted he and Eva had a loving relationship and denied having any prior physical altercations with her. He did admit that he once intentionally bumped into a female police officer who arrested him for drunk driving.
30:44 Speaker 01 Bumped into her cruiser?
30:47 Speaker 00 Nah, it just said bumped into her. I almost like assault on a police officer that he just bumped her, but.
30:56 Speaker 01 Why would you do, oh, hey, officer, I just wanted to get your attention. Maybe we can go out sometime.
31:03 Speaker 00 It's not going to go over well.
31:04 Speaker 01 No.
31:05 Speaker 00 Stephen's parents came to the sheriff's station and confirmed he had a history of sleepwalking. They added that he was treated for bipolar disorder. And, you know, we were talking about stepbrothers. It's hard not to bring in the fact that they were sleepwalkers.
31:22 Speaker 01 They were.
31:22 Speaker 00 And they were doing all kinds of nutty stuff while sleepwalking.
31:27 Speaker 01 Have you ever known anybody that's did sleepwalking?
31:30 Speaker 00 No.
31:31 Speaker 01 No?
31:31 Speaker 00 No, thankfully, because I know it does happen and it can be a scary thing, especially for parents who have a child who sleepwalks. Steven said he forgot his medication and Eva had given him her prescription anxiety medication. Okay, something that you're not supposed to do that probably everyone listening has done at some point in the past. Given some of their medication to a loved one, a family member, something like that.
32:05 Speaker 01 That's how we start this recording every week, you know, we let our pills out. What do you need? What do you got? You know, I'll give you, I'll give you two of these blue things for one of those things over there.
32:16 Speaker 00 I don't need any of your blue pills.
32:20 Speaker 01 I was saying me taking from you for fun.
32:24 Speaker 00 At the end of his interview, Steven asked if he could go home with his parents, but he was told that he was under arrest for murder. Can I go home with my parents now?
32:36 Speaker 01 Sounds like a little kid.
32:37 Speaker 00 It does. He's 25 years old and you killed the woman in your bed. No, you're not going home. Now I get it. You have this story about dreaming and sleepwalking and thinking she was an intruder, but that story alone, it's not like the police are gonna be like, oh, okay. Well, now that you've told us that, well, obviously, yeah, just go on home. No, it doesn't work that way. So this was a pretty unique case, right? Because it involved legal and medical issues. If Steven was truly sleepwalking, then he was unconscious and therefore not criminally responsible.
33:21 Speaker 00 And this was a possibility that really horrified Eva's family.
33:26 Speaker 01 It'd be really hard to comprehend.
33:27 Speaker 00 I think it would too. You know, any parent whose son or daughter was killed and they know who did it, but this possibility is floating around that this person's not going to pay for what they did because they're going to be found not criminally responsible.
33:47 Speaker 01 But if you're that person and that family of the, you know, Steven, you're, you're hoping that that is the case, right? That someone can. Prove that, that look, he was asleep. He didn't know what he did. So you can't hold him guilty.
34:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. Several experts, including a world-recognized sleep disorder expert from Stanford, joined the case. Steven went to a clinic for a sleep study. His test revealed he had a propensity to sleepwalk and suffered from night terrors. This was caught on camera during the study.
34:24 Speaker 01 Have you or do you know anybody that ever had night terrors?
34:27 Speaker 00 I've never had night terrors. I don't know anybody. I don't know anybody that's had any of the things that we normally talk about, to be honest with you. But, you know, this is an interesting part of the case because, okay, it's one thing for him to come up with this excuse for why this happened. It's another thing to have doctors start to kind of see that he did have some of the things that he was saying. Now, doesn't mean necessarily that this is the way it went down, but it is in line, at least with some of the things
35:09 Speaker 00 that he said. According to sleep experts, night terrors can develop into sleepwalking episodes. An individual may talk in their sleep, walk, or perform other behaviors, and they have no recollection when they wake up. If someone with a history of sleepwalking uses drugs or alcohol, the chances of a sleepwalking episode are higher. Experts determined that Steven's bipolar disorder made him more susceptible to violent behavior during a sleepwalking episode.
35:43 Speaker 01 And we know that he drank that night, and we know that he took some medication that night.
35:48 Speaker 00 I think he also had some coke that night.
35:50 Speaker 01 He had some coke that night.
35:51 Speaker 00 The case was transferred to DA Dinko Bozenich, who specialized in trials involving mental defenses. Bozenich learned about an earlier case from Toronto, Canada. On May 24th, 1987, 23-year-old Kenneth Parks fell asleep in front of his TV. Around 2:00 AM, he got up, put on his coat, and drove 14 miles to his in-law's home, passing through major intersections. He beat his father-in-law nearly to death, then beat and stabbed his mother-in-law to death. He then drove back home. He realized what he had done and turned himself in, but claimed to have no memory of the attack.
36:35 Speaker 01 See, for me, that blows my mind that somebody could say they were asleep, somehow left their house, got in a car, drove across town and did this, and turned around and came back without knowing what happened.
36:51 Speaker 00 And drove through intersections and all of that.
36:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:56 Speaker 00 So Kenneth's case was investigated by psychiatrist RH Billings, who determined Kenneth had no history of psychosis. When another patient spoke to Dr. Billings about sleepwalking, he had a lightbulb moment. Kenneth underwent a series of sleep tests and exams. He experienced periods of awakening from deep sleep and had a strong propensity to sleepwalk. Experts discovered a family history of sleepwalking. Kenneth went to trial for first-degree murder and invoked a sleepwalking defense. To the surprise of many, he was found not guilty. And obviously, we're not going, you know, very in-depth into this case of Steven Parks, but-
37:42 Speaker 00 It seems to me, Gibbs, that the jury must have felt that he was not responsible for what he had done.
37:52 Speaker 01 I think it's just so bizarre. It's hard to believe, but we know people sleepwalk. We know people do things in their sleep that they don't recall. Just for me, for this one, it's just.
38:02 Speaker 00 It's tough, right? Now, if you told me that someone got up, you know, went to the kitchen, got some milk and cookies and left it all out, went back to bed, got up the next morning, didn't remember it. Okay, I get that. But to get in your, get dressed, get in your car, be able to drive.
38:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:24 Speaker 00 And then commit these heinous acts, you know, that's, that's pretty tough. So prosecutors knew there was a lot at stake. In Steven's case, because he claimed he was asleep, there appeared to be no motive. So investigators continued digging into his affair with Eva to find one. They knew about the prior incidents of violent and threatening behavior, and they knew Eva was afraid of him. And I thought it was very strange for Steven to tell investigators in his interview that there weren't these earlier incidents of violence, because they were pretty well documented, I think.
39:05 Speaker 01 Yeah. Why lie about it? It's just gonna come back to hurt you.
39:08 Speaker 00 They questioned why Eva invited Steven on a last minute trip to Catalina Island just before she was going to try to revive her marriage. Detective Ken Gallatin had a theory about what happened that night. He told Dateline, I think Eva was breaking it off, telling him that this was their last time together. He couldn't handle it. If he couldn't have her, no one could. And, you know, that probably started to fight and he ended up killing her. Gibbs, how many times have we heard that statement? If he couldn't have her, no one could.
39:49 Speaker 01 We hear it a lot, unfortunately.
39:51 Speaker 00 And unfortunately, it is the root of a lot of violent acts, including murders. You know, I was actually watching. A new OJ thing that they just came out with on Netflix.
40:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, I've seen some of that.
40:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was pretty good. There was nothing in there that was groundbreaking or anything like that. But there was a part of it where someone was kind of theorizing the motives for OJ if he did it, as most people think he did, but and it was the same exact thing. You know, if he couldn't have Nicole, then no one else could.
40:31 Speaker 01 And he kind of made those claims, didn't he? That he didn't want her to be with anybody else?
40:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know how he phrased it, but yeah, he was not happy that she was with other people. He allegedly, you know, watched her while she was being intimate with other people. It took nearly three years to go to trial. By June 2004, Prosecutor Dinko Bosanich had to retire due to a heart attack. The case was transferred to Deputy DA Ken Lamb. Lamb argued that if Stephen was conscious during the attack, he was guilty of murder. The evidence at the crime scene showed he made a series of complex decisions, which suggested he was aware of what he was doing.
41:23 Speaker 01 Couldn't you argue that the person in Toronto had a lot of difficult decisions to make driving across town?
41:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, I would call that pretty complex decisions if you're technically asleep. Navigating traffic, navigating intersections. Some of us can't do that while we're awake.
41:41 Speaker 01 That's true.
41:43 Speaker 00 The prosecution argued that Stephen and Eva got into an argument that night, which prompted him to walk outside and pick up the flower pot, the door locked behind him. So Stephen knocked until Eva opened it, at which point he hit her in the head with the flower pot and attacked her. Detective Richard Tomlin testified about Stephen's history with Eva, including the incident where he broke into her apartment. And how relatives and friends saw bruises and bite marks on her body. The defense argued that Steven killed Eva during a sleepwalking episode, meaning he couldn't have known what he was doing.
42:24 Speaker 00 They also emphasized his history of mental illness and the possibility that someone could be capable of committing a violent crime in their sleep. One of his defense attorneys noted that there was no reason for Steven to be angry with Eva that night.
42:41 Speaker 01 Well, if they were breaking up, why wouldn't he have been angry?
42:44 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, if the prosecution's assertion is true that she was telling him, this was it, I'm breaking it off. I'm getting back with my husband. Then that would mean there was a reason for him to be angry with her potentially. During his police interview, Steven said he had no memory of the attack. But at trial, he testified he had flashbacks of certain details. According to People vs. Rights, he remembered being in an all out struggle with a male intruder, throwing down the flower pot and feeling threatened.
43:24 Speaker 01 You think if you're on the jury, it's hard to believe anything that's going to be said at this point? Because you would feel like they're going to say what they have to to make it sound believable?
43:34 Speaker 00 I think you could say that about a lot of cases.
43:36 Speaker 01 Well, yeah. But I mean, he really has to sell the sleepwalking.
43:40 Speaker 00 Well, he does. And, and maybe, you know, it comes down to jury members. Do they know someone who sleepwalks? Have they seen them do strange things? Or to some of them, is this so far fetched that they're just not going to be able to believe it? Also, during his police interview, Steven said when he became aware of Eva, he saw the knife wounds in her neck, which, as we said earlier, were similar to the way commercial fishermen kill sharks. He assumed he caused those wounds. Now, he didn't deny breaking into Eva's apartment and admitted he was responsible for the bruises on her body throughout their relationship.
44:25 Speaker 00 He acknowledged that sometimes he grabbed her too firmly while having sex. According to Dayline, he said Eva went to a doctor to see why she bruised so easily.
44:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, some people do.
44:39 Speaker 00 There are some people who bruise easily, yes, but when you're admitting that you are responsible for the bruises, you know, this kind of grabbed her too firmly during sex, could it happen? Yes. Is it going to be tough for the jury to believe? Maybe. Steven and his parents testified about his sleepwalking problems since childhood. Steven would sometimes get out of bed, speak or yell during these episodes. He often thought someone was after him and he needed to protect himself. He testified that sometimes his sleepwalking episodes were destructive.
45:22 Speaker 00 He once walked through a window in his sleep. This continued into adulthood.
45:27 Speaker 01 I mean, it's kind of scary when you think about it. You have to worry about waking up, sleepwalking, not remembering anything that you did. I know it happens out there.
45:38 Speaker 00 But it's also important in this trial, right? For him to really drive home. How long he's had this? How bad some of the episodes were? The fact that he sometimes felt as though he needed to protect himself. When Steven was 11 or 12, he and his cousin were sleeping at his grandma's house. His cousin heard a scream coming from Steven's room. When he went to investigate, he saw that the ceiling fan had been pulled down. Steven was standing there, disoriented. He didn't remember what happened. Steven once jumped or fell out of a second story window and claimed he had no idea what happened.
46:21 Speaker 00 He told his father he was sleepwalking, but his friends believed he was using meth.
46:26 Speaker 01 The old, I was sleepwalking, not meth this time, Dad.
46:29 Speaker 00 Well, this is, you know, something that's pretty interesting. Yes, could you have been a sleepwalker? Absolutely. But could someone also use that as an excuse for other bad behavior?
46:43 Speaker 01 Yes.
46:44 Speaker 00 I would say the answer is yes.
46:46 Speaker 01 If I say this, then they won't be mad at me and I'll get a pass.
46:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, who wants their parents to know that they walked out of a second story window because they were high on meth? Steven's friend, Chris Pickford, testified that a few years earlier, he was sleeping in Steven's apartment when Steven woke up in the night and told Pickford the devil was chasing him. I don't know about you, but I think I'd be looking for the closest Holiday Inn.
47:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think I'd be staying the night there anymore.
47:17 Speaker 00 No, because I'm getting a real Amityville horror vibe.
47:20 Speaker 01 You know, you made the same claim when we were at that one crime con where we had to share the room that one night. You're like, it was sleep cuddling. I'm like, what?
47:31 Speaker 00 Is that the night where I said, those aren't pillows?
47:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
47:34 Speaker 00 Yes.
47:35 Speaker 01 Yeah. I said, I think you were awake. You were just telling me you were asleep when you did that.
47:38 Speaker 00 I don't sleepwalk, I sleep spoon.
47:41 Speaker 01 Confirmed.
47:44 Speaker 00 Steven told his acquaintance, Luke Shockley, about an incident where he was stopped by a female police officer for running through a tollgate bridge. He threw himself into the officer's shoulder and explained that he did it because he knew he was bigger and more powerful. He also admitted that some kids once threw an egg at his car and he drove after them, leaned out the window and hit their car with a club-like device. Okay, so why are these examples important? And to me, it's because he obviously wasn't sleepwalking, right? During some of these, so you can't explain those away with sleepwalking.
48:28 Speaker 00 Does it really point to kind of a violent individual?
48:33 Speaker 01 It does.
48:35 Speaker 00 And how is the jury gonna factor that in? Experts had determined that Steven had a tendency towards violent outbursts, which worsened as he got older. His substance abuse exacerbated his other problems. And that's pretty normal.
48:52 Speaker 01 And we know that he was using.
48:54 Speaker 00 He was using. He acknowledged that he acted, quote, "quite bizarre" during the April 18, 2001 incident. He claimed he was agitated because he got into a physical fight with five people outside a liquor store earlier that night.
49:11 Speaker 01 Wonder if that was the cocaine talking?
49:13 Speaker 00 Could have been, but again, you know, he's not sleepwalking.
49:18 Speaker 01 No.
49:19 Speaker 00 During this. Dr. Daniel Amen, a psychiatrist, conducted brain scans on Steven in late 2003. He found that Steven had decreased brain activity in three areas, including the prefrontal cortex, which controls judgment, impulse control, organization, planning, and forethought. Okay, those all seem very important in everyday life. The second area was his left temporal lobe, which controls memory, mood stability, and temper control. Low activity in the temporal lobe is associated with seizures,
50:01 Speaker 00 irritability, and aggression. Again, all these very important.
50:06 Speaker 01 You've been wanting me to do one of those scans for years.
50:10 Speaker 00 I've been wanting you to take a lot of tests for a number of years, all of which you have balked at. According to People vs. Rights, Dr. Amen concluded Steven had significant brain trauma that prevented him from having a normal life. The brain damage would have caused him to have problems with judgment, impulse control, planning, and forethought. He could not tell if Steven was prone to sleepwalking. So this is kind of completely separate from the sleepwalking.
50:43 Speaker 01 It is.
50:44 Speaker 00 He's got some serious brain issues. Dr. William Pierce reviewed Steven's family history and administered psychological tests. Dr. Pierce opined that Steven suffered from sleepwalking and sleep terrors triggered by nighttime seizures.
51:03 Speaker 00 His diagnosis was consistent with Dr. Amen's findings of temporal lobe damage. During a temporal lobe seizure, a person is unconscious, but can perform complex tasks like driving without being aware of what they're doing. Dr. Pierce said, "A person cannot plan, reason, or use judgment while unconscious." Dr. Cleat Kushida conducted an observation study on Steven at a sleep clinic. Kushida was one of the most important witnesses for the defense. He's a neurologist who specializes in sleep disorders, a professor at Stanford,
51:45 Speaker 00 division chief and medical director of Stanford Sleep Medicine, and director of the Stanford Center for Human Sleep Research.
51:55 Speaker 01 Pretty important guy, it sounds like.
51:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, pretty accomplished. I think it would be kind of hard to impeach his credentials on the stand. He's also president of the World Sleep Society, former president of the World Sleep Federation, former president of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, and founding president of the California Sleep Society. I didn't know there were so many societies and federations solely dedicated to sleep.
52:25 Speaker 01 And not only was he the president of the World Sleep Society, he was a member too.
52:29 Speaker 00 How about that? During the sleep study, Steven sat up, screamed, and jumped out of bed. Dr. Kushida testified that Steven's brainwaves indicated he was in the deepest stages of sleep when this occurred. He diagnosed Steven with sleep terrors and other sleep disorders, and thought Steven could be capable of harming others while sleeping.
52:54 Speaker 01 That's a pretty important finding for the defense.
52:57 Speaker 00 Well, it is, and we just talked about a number of doctors. Who are all saying similar things. Some are talking about brain trauma. Some are talking about sleepwalking, sleep terrors, temporal lobe seizures. All of this pointing to the fact that it was possible that Steven Wrights could have done this and not really known what he was doing. You just wonder, you know, how powerful are these testimonies to the jury? When they're coming from these doctors.
53:39 Speaker 00 Dr. Kashida testified outside the presence of the jury that he had twice seen subjects commit violent acts while sleeping. Other experts also concluded sleepwalkers are capable of violence while unconscious. He explained, there are seven criteria for determining whether a person who committed a harmful act was truly sleepwalking. According to State versus Wrights, the criteria are number one, whether there was a reason to suspect sleepwalking based on the perpetrator's history or based on a sleep study. Number two, whether the duration was compatible with the presumed diagnosis,
54:24 Speaker 00 i.e. whether the perpetrator had a sleepwalking problem at the time of the act. Number three, whether the conduct was seemingly senseless and without motivation. Four, whether immediately afterward, the perpetrator was perplexed and horrified and made no attempt to conceal the act. Five, whether there was amnesia for most of the events. Six, whether the act occurred during the first third of sleep, when most stage three or stage four sleep occurs. And number seven, whether there was prior sleep deprivation, which can trigger a sleepwalking episode.
55:06 Speaker 00 Dr. Kashida believes Steven met all seven criteria. And it sounded to me, as I was reading through it, that based on what we've heard, he probably did.
55:20 Speaker 01 You know, if I was on this jury, I'd be leaning maybe a little differently now after hearing all this.
55:27 Speaker 00 Well, first of all, you have a very credentialed, well thought of doctor who is saying, "Hey, I believe he met all seven of these criteria, and if he did, then how can he be responsible?"
55:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:43 Speaker 00 And you could see how a jury might start to soak that in. Dr. Kishida further stated a person can perform complex acts while sleepwalking. He said he observed one patient remove objects from a bedside table and throw the objects at him. One person got into a vehicle, started the ignition, and backed out of the driveway while asleep. Okay, I understand that that could happen. My question is, how do you let the person get that far if you're monitoring them in the sleep study? Okay, they got into the car. They started the car. They start to back out of the driveway.
56:26 Speaker 00 At some point, don't you have to step in?
56:29 Speaker 01 And you say, "Hey, hey, hit that wake, wake me button."
56:32 Speaker 00 Dr. Samuel George Benson Jr. reviewed Stephen's history and the results of his test. Dr. Benson opined that Stephen suffered from bipolar disorder and a sleepwalking disorder with seizures caused by organic brain damage. He stated that people who suffer from partial complex seizures tend to be more violent than others, and a person who sleepwalks in connection with seizures can be dangerous to himself and others. So again, a lot of expert testimony for the defense as it relates to sleepwalking and
57:11 Speaker 00 whether or not Stephen Wright was a sleepwalker and therefore was unconscious while he committed this act.
57:20 Speaker 01 Well, if you can get into the jury's head and get any reasonable doubt going, you're ahead of the game.
57:27 Speaker 00 Now, the prosecutor moved to preclude Dr. Kishida and the other experts from testifying that a person is capable of killing another while sleepwalking because the opinion was not based on reliable or trustworthy information and was not generally accepted in the scientific community as required by People vs. Kelly.
57:52 Speaker 01 Just trying to think, when you're sleepwalking, what can wake you up out of that? Because I'm thinking if you're murdering somebody, attacking somebody, stabbing somebody, there's some screaming going on, there's some hitting coming back at you, I'm assuming. And you just stay asleep during this? Like, it doesn't faze you at all?
58:11 Speaker 00 It's a good question. It's definitely a good question. But you can't blame the prosecution, right, from trying to get some of this stuff not heard by the jury. And we even said earlier that Dr. Kishida testified outside of the jury about some of the things, specifically things that he had witnessed other people doing. The Kelly-Fry standard requires a consensus in the scientific community before testimony concerning a new and novel technique or methodology would be admissible. Dr. Kishida expressed the opinion that it is generally accepted
58:54 Speaker 00 in the scientific community that a person can commit a murder while sleepwalking, but that opinion was based entirely on criminal cases. The prosecution noted an absence of empirical data to support Kishida's assertions. And the court sided with the prosecution on this issue. And I'm assuming this was a very pivotal part of the case.
59:21 Speaker 01 I think it had to be.
59:23 Speaker 00 You know, how does the court rule? And on this issue, they ruled in the prosecution's favor, which meant that a lot of the testimony by some of these defense experts, the jury would never hear. On June 24th, 2004, Steven Wright was convicted of first degree murder. Defense attorney Theodore Vigana said about the trial is quoted by the LA Times. It was the only defense we had because my client said he was unconscious. There was no other defense we could use because that is what really happened. We had the best doctors in the nation say that this could happen.
1:00:07 Speaker 00 Vigana said the jury was too afraid to acquit Steven, adding, they were scared to let him go free because of what the public would say.
1:00:17 Speaker 01 Boy, I, I think the public would be on both sides of that fence.
1:00:21 Speaker 00 Well, but let's face it. I think this might come up in a number of trials. Is, are there times where a jury is afraid of what public opinion of them will be if they go a certain way, which may not align with the majority of public opinion? And I would say that may happen.
1:00:47 Speaker 01 I think it probably has happened, but to hang everything on this one defense and being such a, let's see, kind of like a new defense, right? You don't hear a lot about sleepwalking murders.
1:01:02 Speaker 00 No, I mean, it's not super common. There have been a number of defenses centered around sleepwalking. But you said to hang it on this one defense, what else could they do?
1:01:13 Speaker 01 Well.
1:01:14 Speaker 00 He, you know, the guy's covered in blood. It's not like he's saying he didn't do it. So they can't argue he didn't do it. They have to come up for a reason. Why he's not responsible for what he did. Several jurors told the LA Times, they might have been convinced by the sleepwalking defense. If Stephen had only thrown the flower pot, but the additional attack made it seem implausible.
1:01:42 Speaker 01 And I get that because I was thinking, oh, would he wake up when he starts stabbing? When he's.
1:01:50 Speaker 00 I mean, you mentioned hearing the screaming and, and being fought against. You know, again, we can only go by what the jury is saying. Juror Tom Mahoney said he was swayed by the testimony that Stephen had a history of violent behavior. So, you know, what if he has no history of violent behavior? Is the sleepwalking defense easier to digest for the jury?
1:02:18 Speaker 01 I think so.
1:02:19 Speaker 00 Maybe so. Juror Roel Salvador said the graphic photos of Eva's body also influenced their decision. He said, you could do a few things sleepwalking, like the doctor said, but not all that. And I think that kind of goes back to what you were getting into. Now, this was a very vicious, heinous attack that would have taken some time. And at no point does he wake up, does he realize what he's doing and stop? On August 19th, 2004, Stephen was sentenced to 26 years to life. His appeal was rejected on August 12th, 2005.
1:03:02 Speaker 00 According to the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation website, Stephen Otto Wright was granted parole in November 2022. So sentenced to 26 years to life, he does what? 21 years or so with time served?
1:03:22 Speaker 01 That's pretty normal, I would think.
1:03:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:03:24 Speaker 01 If you're good behavior. I wonder if he did any sleepwalking while he was in prison.
1:03:29 Speaker 00 Well, I don't know that I would have wanted to be his bunkmate, given what he was in there for. But you know, as we wrap this one up, I think anytime you have this type of sleepwalking defense case, it's going to be very controversial. In the case of Steven Wright's, numerous tests indicated he did have a sleepwalking disorder and had the potential to exhibit violent behavior during a sleepwalking episode. But he also had a history of violent threatening behavior while fully conscious and aware of what he was doing, I think, which cast a lot of doubt on his defense. I mean, if he'd have been this squeaky clean person.
1:04:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:15 Speaker 00 With no record or no history, then maybe the sleepwalking defense is is much easier for the jury to swallow. I mean, we had one jury even say, hey, that carried a lot of weight, the fact that he had all these, you know, past.
1:04:34 Speaker 01 Violent behavior?
1:04:35 Speaker 00 Violent behaviors and violent offenses.
1:04:39 Speaker 01 I can't remember, but the South African runner.
1:04:43 Speaker 00 Hmm.
1:04:44 Speaker 01 Was that sleep, something related to sleep?
1:04:47 Speaker 00 Well.
1:04:47 Speaker 01 Shot is.
1:04:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's been a while since we did that case, but you know, it wasn't a sleepwalking claim. It was more of he heard something, he got up, he was scared, shot into the bathroom, he thought an intruder was in the bathroom, and it turned out, you know, it was his girlfriend Riva in there.
1:05:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:08 Speaker 00 I just thought this case was interesting because the defense really was able to put on a large number of experts.
1:05:19 Speaker 00 That said, okay, here's all the different things affecting this individual. This could happen, what he's saying, but as it always ends up in every trial. It's up to the jury, right, to kind of take all of this in. And it just seems like there were some people on the jury that thought you just couldn't do all this.
1:05:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:44 Speaker 00 While sleepwalk. Now personally, I don't know if you can or not. I, I think it's possible. I really do.
1:05:52 Speaker 01 It's hard to believe.
1:05:53 Speaker 00 It's hard to believe, but I don't think it's impossible. The question is, is that what happened here? Because here's a guy who, you know, had a history of violence, even violence against his ultimate victim.
1:06:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:12 Speaker 00 So you got to factor that in. Could this be an easy excuse? Right? I sleepwalk. Everybody knows I do. So I'm going to say that this happened during the sleepwalking episode and I had no knowledge of it.
1:06:31 Speaker 01 And I won't have to worry about going to jail.
1:06:33 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:06:33 Speaker 01 Prison. But you know, then you think about that Toronto case and obviously the jury were found in favor of the defense. You know, this is a guy that woke up, drove across town, went in and almost killed his father-in-law and killed his mother-in-law. And didn't wake up and drove back home and got in bed.
1:06:56 Speaker 00 Well, but if you look at our system, is it a perfect system? No, absolutely not. You know, a jury of your peers. Hey, it depends on who's on that jury.
1:07:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, sure does.
1:07:09 Speaker 00 How they are able to interpret scientific data, expert testimony.
1:07:16 Speaker 00 There's a lot of faith and control in the hands of, you know, those 12 jurors. There's just no way around it.
1:07:25 Speaker 01 Sounds like the jury consultant is as important, if not more important than your attorney.
1:07:29 Speaker 00 It can be, it can be. But that's it for our episode on Steven Wright's. So he's out. I have no idea what he's doing now.
1:07:39 Speaker 01 Sleepwalking.
1:07:40 Speaker 00 Probably still sleepwalking. But did he really kill Eva knowingly? And I don't know how you answer that question.
1:07:50 Speaker 01 Only he can.
1:07:51 Speaker 00 I know what the jury decided.
1:07:53 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:07:54 Speaker 00 But jury's decisions aren't always correct. We know that. That's, that's part of why this is such an interesting case. I think there are still some questions. And you're absolutely correct. At the end of the day, he's the only one, if he was being honest, who can say exactly what happened and why it happened.
1:08:16 Speaker 01 Yeah. If you're his girlfriend or wife today, are you a little bit more, you're a little nervous? Going to bed?
1:08:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think so. If you know about it. But we got some voicemails. You want to check those out?
1:08:27 Speaker 01 Let's hear them.
1:08:29 Speaker 02 Hey, Mike and Gibby, this is Jessica from Chicago. I've been listening to your show forever. I binge it while I'm working at home and on art projects. I just listened to the Nathan Miles Gale episode. I actually had to pause it in the middle. So I dated a guy in like 2006 named Metal Steve. And he would always talk about Dimebag Darrell and how like, you know, RIP Dimebag and like, oh, man, we miss him so much. I had no idea that he was killed in such a horrible way. Oh, my God. That, uh, I don't want to say blew my mind because that's a little on the nose and kind of inappropriate.
1:09:12 Speaker 02 But wow, that is bananas. Thank you for reporting on this and letting me know what the heck my, uh, my ex is talking about all the time. Um, yeah. I love you guys. Um, your show is awesome. You both clearly have a ton of compassion and um, I've noticed that like as time has gone, you really start to kind of understand issues and why people do things and that's why a lot of us listen to True Crime. So um, thank you for all you do and um, because you're both super cool. So um,
1:09:48 Speaker 02 I I I I'm team both, but Gibby, you you're just so charming. I love you so much. Um, but I love both of you. Um, so yeah, uh, keep your own time ticking. Thanks. Bye.
1:10:00 Speaker 00 All right. We love you too.
1:10:02 Speaker 01 We do.
1:10:02 Speaker 00 Gibby loves you the most, apparently.
1:10:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. It's a known fact.
1:10:08 Speaker 00 But you know, every now and then, we're informative. Can be, I guess.
1:10:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:12 Speaker 00 Might learn something you didn't know before.
1:10:14 Speaker 01 I remember that case because we got a lot of emails about the uh, the dime bag and all that.
1:10:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:10:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:21 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
1:10:23 Speaker 03 Hi, boys. This is Ellie from Little Old Arlington, Washington. I'm the girl who uh, may or may not have eaten eaten uh, people jerky. And also sorry about the absolute dumpster fire of a voicemail. I get really nervous. But anyway, I was just listening to, I think it was a couple of episodes before the Ayla Reynolds one. I don't remember what you guys were talking about in the voicemails, but it reminded me of how uh, it was like six months ago, I was at a party with my boyfriend and all of a sudden, he just looks at me and goes, "Yeah, I think if you would kill me, you'd probably poison me." And I was like, "What the fuck?" And he was like, "Well, I just feel like that's accurate."
1:11:04 Speaker 03 And I was like, "Well, first of all, weird that you brought that up. And second of all, poison is way too traceable. That simply would not be it." Anyway, um, yeah, keep your own time ticking. I'm definitely team Mike. So yeah, bye.
1:11:19 Speaker 00 So I got a kick out of that one because what I wanted to know was what was his follow up to that?
1:11:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:26 Speaker 00 You know, she says, well, obviously it wouldn't be poison. That's too traceable. Okay, well then how, how would you do it?
1:11:32 Speaker 01 How have you been thinking about doing it then? The old people jerky.
1:11:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know about that. Hey, what are you gonna do? So we had some mailbag. Kelly Gilstrap sent in a Harley chip from Walt Disney World.
1:11:48 Speaker 01 Pretty cool.
1:11:49 Speaker 00 And Jesse Kennedy sent in this real cool serial killer map of Ohio.
1:11:54 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. There was plenty.
1:11:56 Speaker 00 There's a lot of them on there, but I don't, I don't know if it like it's actually handmade or I don't know if it's bought, but either way it's very cool.
1:12:05 Speaker 01 Cool.
1:12:06 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:12:10 Speaker 01 And Gabby.
1:12:11 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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