Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Shawn Johnson About this episode Shawn Johnson traveled to New Orleans for a work conference. He was eager to explore the city and meet new people, but Shawn was found dead in his hotel room on the last day of his trip. Investigators set out to identify four people captured on surveillance entering Shawn’s hotel room before he was killed.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Shawn Johnson. Investigators determined that Shawn was partying that night and had befriended some locals. He asked them back to his hotel room for a champagne bath. But once inside, the scene turned deadly, and law enforcement had to figure out exactly who was involved and who was telling the truth.
You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime
Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information
An Emash Digital production
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 0:39 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 459 of the True Crime All The Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
0:50 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing pretty good. How about you?
0:52 Speaker 00 I'm doing great.
0:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:54 Speaker 00 You and I just talked about on Patreon, you know, what we're watching and I'm really into this show called 60 Days In.
1:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02 Speaker 00 Where they, these people sign up to go to a prison and I cannot figure out for the life of me, why anyone would do that.
1:09 Speaker 01 I think you should try it out.
1:10 Speaker 00 But it's a very interesting show. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Linda Sinclair.
1:17 Speaker 01 Hey Linda.
1:17 Speaker 00 Laura Davis.
1:18 Speaker 01 Hey, thank you Laura.
1:19 Speaker 00 Cindy.
1:20 Speaker 01 What's going on Cindy?
1:21 Speaker 00 Katie Copeland.
1:22 Speaker 01 Hey Katie.
1:23 Speaker 00 Sam Buckmiller.
1:24 Speaker 01 Oh, there's Sam.
1:25 Speaker 00 Rusty Ingerson.
1:26 Speaker 01 What's going on Rusty?
1:27 Speaker 00 Constance Klein.
1:29 Speaker 01 Constance.
1:30 Speaker 00 Irene Morales Andino.
1:32 Speaker 01 Oh, hey Irene.
1:33 Speaker 00 Ryan from Texas.
1:35 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Ryan.
1:36 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Michaela Brown jumped out of her highest level.
1:40 Speaker 01 Wow, that's awesome.
1:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah, we appreciate that new support. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Rex West.
1:49 Speaker 01 Whoa, that's huge. He is such an awesome person.
1:55 Speaker 00 Hmm.
1:56 Speaker 01 I, I think, uh, people should get his name tattooed on him. That's how awesome he is.
2:01 Speaker 00 Awesome he is.
2:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, Rex West, man.
2:03 Speaker 00 So if you're on Patreon, then you've heard this story before, but if you're not, I did not know that the person who signed up on Patreon as Rex West was you, because you didn't tell me.
2:17 Speaker 01 Well, mystery.
2:19 Speaker 00 And all of a sudden Rex West started posting things on Patreon that made it seem as though he was part of the show.
2:27 Speaker 01 Because he was.
2:29 Speaker 00 But I didn't know it was you and I started, and other people started messaging me. They're like, who is this guy? And I'm like, I don't know.
2:36 Speaker 01 He's making comments on about the show, but who is he?
2:39 Speaker 00 Yeah. I thought it was somebody pretending to be you.
2:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:43 Speaker 00 Because first of all, you literally pay to be a Patreon member and that's just something I did not think you would do.
2:50 Speaker 01 I know. It's shocking.
2:51 Speaker 00 It is shocking.
2:52 Speaker 01 But it's the only way I can get on Patreon because they don't give me access. They only allow you access.
2:58 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I can't give anyone access to Patreon. It's just how it works.
3:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:04 Speaker 00 Um, we have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the death of Michelle O'Connell. There have been questions regarding Michelle's death for over a decade now. Michelle was a young mother from Florida who was in a relationship with a sheriff's deputy. Her death is officially declared a suicide, but there are a number of experts who believe the evidence points to a homicide. Now we've done cases where the family believes, and I'm sure the family does here as well, but we also have a number of experts who do not believe her death was a suicide.
3:42 Speaker 01 So we'll see what, uh, so listen and make your decision.
3:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, definitely check it out because it's a, it's a very interesting case. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:55 Speaker 01 I am ready.
3:55 Speaker 00 We're talking about Shawn Johnson. Shawn Johnson traveled to New Orleans for a work conference. He was eager to explore the city and meet new people, but Shawn was found dead in his hotel room on the last day of his trip. Investigators set out to identify four people captured on surveillance entering Shawn's hotel room before he was killed. So, you know, New Orleans, I know, is one of our favorite cities.
4:25 Speaker 01 Enjoyed it a lot.
4:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, we've been there multiple times. It's just a fun city. Now, it can also be a very dangerous city.
4:33 Speaker 01 It can be.
4:34 Speaker 00 As almost any city can be, right? Any big city can be dangerous. But New Orleans has a, it just has a different type of vibe. You know, there is Bourbon Street. There's a lot of bars. I once lost my debit card at a work conference on Bourbon Street.
4:52 Speaker 01 Did you?
4:53 Speaker 00 And was a little inebriated and had no idea where it was and had to cancel it.
5:00 Speaker 01 I just remember having so much fun down there.
5:03 Speaker 00 When we went for Crime Con?
5:04 Speaker 01 Went for Crime Con and we had, uh, the bines.
5:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. I took you to the, the, the fancy hot spot, not fancy, but the, you know, the trendy spot that everybody goes to and you loved it.
5:18 Speaker 01 I did.
5:18 Speaker 00 I think that was your first time ever going.
5:20 Speaker 01 You were sipping on some chicory coffee?
5:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, good memory.
5:24 Speaker 01 Whatever that is.
5:26 Speaker 00 Shawn Johnson was born on December 18th, 1968. He was only 34 years old when he died. Shawn lived in Atlanta, Georgia. He had an eight-year-old son named Quinn and shared custody with Quinn's mother. Quinn said about his dad in an interview for the show Fatal Destination, "Some things I miss about my dad, you could always count on him for a good time, no matter what it was, whether you wanted to do something crazy or stay in for the night or whatever."
5:56 Speaker 01 Sounds like an awesome dad.
5:57 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that make a good dad, make a good parent. Obviously, you know, providing, being there emotionally. It also helps when, you know, You can be fun, while still doing all those things. It's kind of tricky to balance that, but.
6:14 Speaker 01 It is, but you know, it's awesome if you can just have a good time with your kids doing silly stuff sometimes.
6:22 Speaker 00 Doing whatever, right? Shawn met his girlfriend Teresa T in April 2001 at a rock club show. She saw Shawn pull into the parking lot in his convertible. Teresa liked Shawn's open and friendly vibe. And the two fell in love very quickly. Teresa described Shawn as a person with unlimited potential. He was intelligent, talented and creative. You know, something that somebody might say about you. I don't know who that person would be.
6:55 Speaker 01 Rex West.
6:55 Speaker 00 But there might be somebody out there.
6:57 Speaker 01 Rex West has told me.
6:59 Speaker 00 That you have unlimited potential?
7:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
7:01 Speaker 00 Was it in a mirror?
7:02 Speaker 01 It was.
7:03 Speaker 00 Like in a scene from Taxi Driver?
7:06 Speaker 01 Exactly.
7:07 Speaker 00 At the age of 25, Shawn started a career that turned his life in a new direction. He got into entertainment and show production, which was exciting and something that he excelled at. He worked as a stage rigger for rock concerts for seven years. Shawn was an extrovert, so being on the road and constantly meeting new people suited him. And you know, some people are extroverts, some people are introverts. And I do think, you know, your personality does kind of set you up to really excel at some jobs. It would also make it tougher to excel at others.
7:48 Speaker 01 I mean, I think you're one of those people that can float in between.
7:53 Speaker 00 You mean, I can be whatever I need to be?
7:55 Speaker 01 I think so.
7:56 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah, I can be.
7:59 Speaker 01 I think you prefer to be intro?
8:02 Speaker 00 Yes.
8:03 Speaker 01 But I've seen you where you're.
8:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, I can be. I have no problem hanging out with a bunch of people, but you're right. If my preference is to be in small groups or even to be by myself sometimes. You know, I like that time alone. But I do think, you know, if you're in a job like this where you're on the road. And you're meeting a lot of new people, you almost have to be an extrovert. Think of like a traveling salesman.
8:32 Speaker 01 Right.
8:32 Speaker 00 Or a car salesman or something like that. Right? Don't you almost have to be an extrovert to excel in a job like that?
8:41 Speaker 01 I would think yes.
8:42 Speaker 00 Cause you're meeting a lot of new people. You have to sell not only the car, but you have to sell yourself.
8:47 Speaker 01 Well, absolutely. The best salespeople do that, right? They sell themselves so they can sell whatever else behind it.
8:53 Speaker 00 Which I think for an introvert would be much harder to do.
8:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:57 Speaker 00 In July 2003, Sean traveled to New Orleans to work as a stagehand and set up displays for a Microsoft convention. Sean worked during the day and went out to bars in the French Quarter at night. He decided to stay after the convention ended so he could enjoy the city, making it a week long trip. And you know, let's face it, New Orleans is a place that you could spend a whole week. There's a lot to do there.
9:25 Speaker 01 Oh, there's plenty to do.
9:27 Speaker 00 There's a lot of sightseeing. There's a lot of entertainment, a lot of bars to frequent and a lot of great restaurants.
9:34 Speaker 01 We didn't even get the chance to go down to the cemetery.
9:39 Speaker 00 No, and that's the thing about Crime Con. You and I don't get a chance to really do much of anything in whatever city we're going.
9:48 Speaker 01 Right.
9:49 Speaker 00 We can have a meal or we can do a little bit, but you know, we're busy a lot of that time that we're there. So we're not the, we really can't sightsee a bunch. But like I said, I really do love New Orleans. I like Bourbon Street. I love the French Quarter. The last time I was there with my family, we stayed at this great hotel in the French Quarter and they made the best muffuletta sandwiches, which is one of my absolute favorites.
10:18 Speaker 00 You would hate it because it has green olive topenade.
10:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, not my thing.
10:23 Speaker 00 And you do not like green olives, but man, they were so good.
10:27 Speaker 01 Last time we were there together, you were eating some multi seafood dish. It had multiple types of seafood in it.
10:36 Speaker 00 Oh, was it like a jambalaya or something like that?
10:39 Speaker 01 There's all kinds of things in it and even including some little red tiny lobster thing.
10:47 Speaker 00 Okay, you're not a good person to talk about seafood because you absolutely hate seafood.
10:52 Speaker 01 I do, yeah.
10:53 Speaker 00 But Sean was last seen alive in the early morning hours of July 20th, 2003. The day he was supposed to come home at 12:30 PM. A housekeeper at the hotel found Sean's body floating in the jacuzzi, which was filled with bloody water.
11:11 Speaker 01 Not a pretty scene.
11:13 Speaker 00 No, and you know, again, you and I talk about people finding bodies all the time. Can you imagine the number of housekeepers? You think about hotels and motels who have found a dead body.
11:31 Speaker 01 Probably more than we realize.
11:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I think you're you're more apt to find a dead body at a hotel or motel than you are in other professions. I would think responding investigators immediately noticed a laceration on the top of Sean's head. It was clear that Sean's death was a homicide and his hotel room was in disarray. There were champagne bottles throughout the room and broken glass next to the tub. So, you know, I think they decided very early on, right? That this laceration was caused by someone else.
12:10 Speaker 00 It didn't happen as a result of him tripping and, you know, hitting his head and then tumbling into the jacuzzi. Sean's wallet was in the room, but there was no money inside. However, the crime scene didn't look like a normal robbery. The hotel room Bible was found on the floor with all the pages ripped out. Those pages had been soaked with water and plastered to the wall, floor and ceiling.
12:36 Speaker 01 That's a twist.
12:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's very strange. I mean, it almost makes it seem as though, you know, maybe this murder was committed by someone who was extremely religious, but then would that person really rip the pages out of a Bible if they were?
12:58 Speaker 01 Maybe some type of cult personality?
13:00 Speaker 00 Some type of ritual. On the bed was a rag doll with several markings on it. There was moss attached to the doll's hair and a black studded dog collar on the doll's neck. Okay. Also, very strange. And, you know, you could say possibly ritualistic as well.
13:25 Speaker 01 I mean, you are in New Orleans.
13:27 Speaker 00 Yeah.
13:28 Speaker 01 You know, or some voodoo.
13:30 Speaker 00 Kind of the, the, uh, the home of black magic. Some people might think of it.
13:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:37 Speaker 00 But these are two things, right? That really stand out. What do you make? I think if you're investigators of these pages of the Bible plastered all over, you know, what's with this rag doll? What are the markings on it? Why is there a, a dog collar on the doll's neck? After Sean's body was removed, detectives found two champagne bottles under him, one shattered and one intact. It also sounds like there was one heck of a party going on. At some point in the descriptions of this room, there are a lot of champagne bottles mentioned.
14:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, someone's celebrating something.
14:20 Speaker 00 Investigators suspected the broken bottle might be the murder weapon. According to prosecutor Sonny Funk, Sean was hit so hard that his brain hit both sides of his head.
14:33 Speaker 01 Wow, that's a lot of force.
14:35 Speaker 00 It really is. I mean, you think about like a, like an NFL running back.
14:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:40 Speaker 00 Suffering a concussion. He's running in to someone else with his head at such speed and force that it's causing the brain to move around inside of his head.
14:55 Speaker 01 So someone swinging this champagne bottle, it fits them weapon, pretty damn hard.
15:00 Speaker 00 Well, that assumes that it was that type of hit that caused his brain to hit both sides of his head. It could be, it could also be, you know, he was thrown, pushed into something. I don't know. The autopsy report stated that Sean didn't die from the blows to the head. He could have survived the head trauma. His cause of death was drowning. Sean's family didn't know of anyone who would have wanted to harm him. According to Sean's girlfriend, Sean didn't have a malicious cell in his body. And it was inconceivable to her that anyone would want to do harm to Sean.
15:42 Speaker 00 And I think a lot of family members would feel that way. Unless they knew specifically that their loved one was in, you know, had a beef with somebody, or there was something going on. I mean, I would say that about my girls. I don't know anyone that doesn't really like them that would wish harm upon them.
16:05 Speaker 01 Could you say that about me?
16:06 Speaker 00 No, there are, there are people that, that would be okay if, if harm came to you. Now, none of the people listening, but people in our real, actual lives, possibly. You know, you are a manager and have been of a lot of people, as have I. And when you have a job like that, you're, you're not going to be always the most well liked person.
16:30 Speaker 01 That is true.
16:30 Speaker 00 You know, when you have to fire people or discipline people, there are some that are not going to like you. It just comes with the territory.
16:40 Speaker 01 I really need those TPS reports, you know, and sometimes they don't like it when I push on that.
16:45 Speaker 00 Right. People, you know, and you keep stealing their staplers and.
16:50 Speaker 01 Sent that one guy to the basement with his red staple.
16:52 Speaker 00 That's how you get to not be liked.
16:57 Speaker 00 A colleague from the convention told the police that he and Sean went out on Bourbon Street the night before. They went to the Dungeon Bar, a well-known spot in the French Quarter. The Dungeon opens at midnight and sometimes stays open until 8:00 in the morning.
17:13 Speaker 01 Man, that sounds like a interesting place to go chill out at.
17:18 Speaker 00 Well, you know, when you have a bar that doesn't even open until midnight, it's going to be a pretty interesting place. Now, you put it on Bourbon Street.
17:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:30 Speaker 00 Where the party almost never stops. Okay, what's going on at 4:00, 5:00, 6:00 o'clock in the morning?
17:38 Speaker 01 I'm wondering, you know, like, most bars close at 2:30 around here, if not sooner. But if they stay open, it's 2:30. So when those people leave at 2:30, I mean, what condition are they in when they roll into this place? You know what I mean?
17:53 Speaker 00 That, that, yeah, that's open to a...
17:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:56 Speaker 00 But most people have already shut it down by midnight. This place doesn't even open until midnight. But I do want to get back to, you know, people not knowing anyone who would want to do Sean harm. And you think about somebody in their life at home. And I think for most people, that's probably true. But we're talking about a place like Bourbon Street. It's not all that hard, gives to run into somebody or rub somebody the wrong way, especially if alcohol is involved.
18:33 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, sure.
18:34 Speaker 00 And, you know, maybe make an enemy pretty quickly in the span of just a couple of hours. So I think, you know, as investigators, they have to be thinking about that. Sean's coworker said that he saw him for the last time at the Dungeon with a group of what he called goths. Police learned that members of the goth community commonly hung around Jackson Square and befriended tarot card readers in the square. However, the people hanging out in the square were reluctant to talk to the police.
19:07 Speaker 01 Well, you know, there's a lot of groups that don't really want to have discussions with the police.
19:13 Speaker 00 There's a lot of people nowadays that just don't really want to talk to the police.
19:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:19 Speaker 00 Police did learn that in the Goth community, the rag dolls like the one found in the hotel room were called familiars.
19:28 Speaker 01 Interesting term.
19:29 Speaker 00 It is not something I've ever heard of. Well, I don't know why I would. I'm not big in the Goth community.
19:36 Speaker 01 Not anymore.
19:37 Speaker 00 Not anymore. According to New Orleans Detective Winston Harbin, it's an object that an individual will hold in close personal connection, as though it were a living being, in some cases, a sister or a family member that they've lost. Hence, I think the name or the term familiar. Investigators still had more leads to pursue. The front desk staff reported that they received a noise complaint from the guest next to Sean early that morning. Around 7:15 a.m., the guest claimed he heard a male voice say, "I am the Lord and you are my servant." He also heard punching sounds and a man shouting.
20:18 Speaker 01 That's kind of interesting to hear that at 7 o'clock in the morning, 7:15?
20:24 Speaker 00 Well, first of all, I don't want to hear anything at 7:15 in the morning because if I do, that means I'm awake.
20:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:31 Speaker 00 And I'm not going to be a happy camper.
20:34 Speaker 01 We all know you're not a happy camper until you get in your two at minimum, but most likely five cups of coffee.
20:41 Speaker 00 Yes, two at minimum is the bare minimum. But you're right, this would be very strange to hear right next door to you in a hotel room, "I am the Lord and you are my servant." And then, you know, you're hearing what sounds like a scuffle or punching sounds and a man shouting. Hotel surveillance captured Sean entering the hotel with two women and two men. They were all dressed in Gothic clothing. And this lined up with the colleague's statement that Sean was last seen hanging out with a group of Goth people. So police have some stuff to go on, right? They have this person next door to Sean at
21:26 Speaker 00 the hotel, hearing things. But I think more importantly, they have surveillance video.
21:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, they know exactly where he was and what time that occurred.
21:36 Speaker 00 And they have video of these people that he was with. So police reached out to a local TV station with video enhancement abilities. The station produced still shots of everyone in the video and released them to the media. Investigators received the call from the 8th District Police, who reported that a woman was at the station claiming her photo was on TV. This woman has only been identified by her street name, Deirdre. Deirdre had told investigators, she was hanging out with people she knew as Worry, Never, and Ben. Worry and Never were a couple, and Ben was just hanging along. She didn't
22:18 Speaker 00 know any of them well, and only knew their street names.
22:22 Speaker 01 I wonder if Worry and Never were actually known as Never Worry.
22:26 Speaker 00 Does seem like that could possibly be the case. These are also very strange street names.
22:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's not anything close to my street name of Rex West.
22:37 Speaker 00 Well, I think you're confusing street name with stage name. And those can often be two very different things.
22:44 Speaker 01 That is true.
22:45 Speaker 00 I thought your street name was Mike Honcho.
22:51 Speaker 00 Deirdre described Never as a petite woman with long blonde hair. Worry was tall and thin with short hair. They chose their names because Worry was a person who worried about everything, and Never was a person who never worried about anything. And that sounds like my wife and I.
23:09 Speaker 01 It really does.
23:10 Speaker 00 My wife worries about everything. I don't worry about anything.
23:13 Speaker 01 I've never met somebody that worries so much about. The tiniest thing.
23:18 Speaker 00 The smallest thing.
23:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:19 Speaker 00 And she likes to voice them at the dinner table, which is why you know about them.
23:23 Speaker 01 And you could give rats, you know what?
23:26 Speaker 00 Now, I just don't worry because I, to me, it just doesn't do any good. According to Deirdre, Sean was the life of the party. He was making friends with everyone around him at the bar. Sean and the others left the bar a little after 5:30 a.m. They walked over to Jackson Square. Sean invited them back to his hotel. He said he had a large jacuzzi and suggested they have a champagne bath. The group first stopped to pick up champagne before taking a cab to the hotel.
23:56 Speaker 01 Your champagne bath. I know you've had several of those back in the day.
24:00 Speaker 00 And we all know you would never do that because that would be expensive.
24:05 Speaker 01 It's, yeah, why do that when you have water for free?
24:07 Speaker 00 Right. But, you know, I think the timing here, right? We said this bar didn't even open till 12. I mean, they're shutting it down, at least the bar part of it, at 5:30 in the morning. But they're making plans to continue to party.
24:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're gonna go to the store and pick up some champagne to bathe in.
24:31 Speaker 00 They emptied several bottles of champagne into the tub. Sean, Never and Ben started taking off their clothes to get in the tub. Deirdre became uncomfortable and decided to leave. I think that's exactly the point where I would decide to leave as well.
24:48 Speaker 01 And everybody's getting naked?
24:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is like, have you ever seen the old Saturday Night Live skit with Will Ferrell? Where they're in the jacuzzi? And they always have like the guest stars in the jacuzzi with them. It's very uncomfortable. On her way out, Never told her, you don't know how much fun you're gonna miss. Deirdre was adamant that she left before anything happened. So we said, right? Police have a lot to go on. They have the surveillance video. From that they're able to develop stills. And once they're put out in the media, this lady Deirdre just shows up at the station and says, "Hey, my picture's on TV. Yeah, what's going on?"
25:34 Speaker 00 So I think to come forward like that, you're either wanting to be truthful and clear your name, or you're wanting to get ahead of the other people coming in and tell the story the way you want it told, because you had more to do with it than what you're going to tell police you did. And I think police have to figure out which kind of camp she's in.
26:00 Speaker 01 Yeah. Is she innocent? Or does she have something to do with this? I kind of lean, I would think she probably doesn't have anything to do with it, because why would you put yourself out there?
26:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think the flip side to that would be, I'm gonna come forward, because then they're not going to think that I had anything to do with it, right? If I come forward first and tell my story, I can minimize my role. But I'm with you. I kind of, I feel like, you know, more likely than not, she's being honest. Deirdre revealed that the rag doll belonged to Never. It was one of her prized possessions. She provided photos of Never from her boyfriend's camera. Police still needed real names, though, in order to make an arrest. I think it's, you know, hard, maybe not impossible, but you know, you're making out
26:55 Speaker 00 warrants and stuff. Who you after? Never and Worry. Okay, we're gonna need a little bit more than that.
27:02 Speaker 01 I think it's gonna be kind of difficult to locate.
27:04 Speaker 00 Detective Winston Harbin learned about an ex-girlfriend of Worry's who went by the name Spin. First of all, who's coming up with these names? There is a lot of names here, and they're all strange. Spin worked at a voodoo shop in the French Quarter. She claimed they only dated a couple of months, and she didn't know Worry's legal name. She thought his last name was Italian, and his first name was Chris or Christian. Detective Harbin wasn't sure if she was lying or not. And again, I think, you know, from the police's standpoint, that's something they struggle with, with a lot of people in these cases, right? You're getting information,
27:46 Speaker 00 but is the person giving you the information being truthful or not? Because that's all that really matters.
27:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, the accuracy of the information might not be that good.
27:57 Speaker 00 Later that afternoon, two sources called the police with a tip about the woman called Never. They identified her as 20-year-old Carla Fraff from Mobile, Alabama. Detective Harbin contacted the Mobile PD, who produced a record for Carla. The second source mentioned that Carla wore a wig and didn't actually have long blonde hair. The following day, a man named Jerry Lambert flagged the police down in Jackson Square. He claimed he knew why Shawn was killed. He was in the square that night and talked to the group. Shawn invited everyone back to his hotel. Carla, AKA Never, pulled Shawn to the side, leaving
28:39 Speaker 00 Worry with Jerry and the others. Worry told Jerry they were going to roll Shawn, meaning rob him. Worry seemed to be looking for help, but Jerry said no. So again, right? Police are just, they're getting flooded with information.
28:55 Speaker 01 I mean, you can see where a group might do something like this. You know, you have this guy drinking all night with you, talks about, let's go buy a bunch of champagne.
29:04 Speaker 00 He's from out of town, staying in a hotel room.
29:07 Speaker 01 Maybe flashing some of the money around.
29:09 Speaker 00 Maybe. But if this Jerry guy was telling the truth, right? Then he really kind of provided the motive for the murder. Police began to suspect that Carla was potentially used as the bait to set up the robbery. Worry and Carla, the apparent ringleaders, were still unaccounted for. On July 25th, 2003, detectives received word from Manatee County, Florida, about 700 miles away from New Orleans, authorities had an individual in custody named Carla Frye, who showed up at the hospital and claimed to be a victim of kidnapping and sexual assault. Carla told Deputy Bill Waldron, "An Italian man kidnapped her and her boyfriend, Wur.
29:54 Speaker 00 He killed the man in his hotel room while he was in the jacuzzi." According to Carla, "The killer held her and Wurri prisoner for several days in a trailer. She escaped after he sexually assaulted her. She thought her boyfriend was behind her. She heard gunshots, turned around and saw Wurri on the ground. She was able to flag down a ride to the hospital." So, I mean, this is quite a story. If true, obviously it would be extremely horrific. But according to Deputy Waldron, Carla was detached and unemotional. As she told the story, at least to him, he thought she was holding something back.
30:36 Speaker 01 Not being completely forthcoming.
30:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, honest about it.
30:43 Speaker 00 Deputy Waldron spoke to the doctor who said there was no evidence of a sexual assault. After Waldron spoke to New Orleans authorities, he confronted Carla with everything he'd learned. And this was when Carla admitted she was not kidnapped, she was not sexually assaulted, and the Italian man didn't exist. She said she and her boyfriend made up the story because she needed treatment for a UTI.
31:11 Speaker 01 Wouldn't there be a easier way to go about getting treatment for a UTI?
31:15 Speaker 00 Well, I mean, if you don't have insurance and you don't have the money to pay for it, maybe that was their thinking. Now, this could also be a lie, right? The UTI could be part of the lie as well because what she could really be trying to do is distance herself from the murder in this hotel room. Waldron asked for her boyfriend's real name, but Carla maintained that she only knew him as Wur. And I mean, that's at least the second time we've said that. Do you find that strange? You know, if you're with somebody as boyfriend, girlfriend, or boyfriend, boyfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, doesn't matter. But if you're with somebody for
31:58 Speaker 00 any extended period of time, would you not at some point learn their legal name?
32:05 Speaker 01 I would think yes.
32:07 Speaker 00 I get it. On the street, they go by these other names. But you know, when you're alone, it's got to come up at some point, right? Hey, what's your real name? I mean, at some point, when you're being intimate, are you saying worry? Never?
32:26 Speaker 00 I mean, it doesn't seem like that would be the, uh, the best way to, to go about it.
32:33 Speaker 01 What do you like? Never? And never is like, wait, no, no.
32:38 Speaker 00 It's, it's almost like that, that old who's on first routine.
32:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:42 Speaker 00 Waldron asked for her story in more detail. This time she blamed worry for everything and claimed she was just a witness. And, you know, again, the, the changing of someone's story, it's very interesting how some of these stories morph, right? As they're told, from being kidnapped and assaulted by some strange Italian man to, no, that was all a lie. My boyfriend worry did it. I was there, but I was just a witness. I didn't actually do anything.
33:20 Speaker 01 Man, we know police love that.
33:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, obviously they don't. But, but why does it really happen? People are just trying to squirm their way out of getting into trouble. That's, that's what I always believe. And they'll change their story. They'll try to craft something else, anything to get out of, you know, facing the consequences.
33:42 Speaker 01 I think they tell the police what, what they think they want to hear. And then as they find out the police know a little bit more than they realize, then they're changing it up.
33:54 Speaker 00 Because they have to, because now the story doesn't make sense.
33:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:57 Speaker 00 Carla said, they met Sean at the dungeon. He was buying everyone drinks and invited them back to his room. Carla got into the tub with Sean. Out of nowhere, Worry hit Sean in the head with a champagne bottle. He held Sean underwater until he died. She denied participating in any way. Well, of course, what else is she gonna do? Now, she could be telling the truth, or she could just be trying to save her own ass. As many people do. But I think this does go back to your theory, right? Sean's at the bar. He's having a good time, trying to have a good time. He may be flashing a little bit of money around by buying everyone drinks.
34:42 Speaker 00 And like you said, offering to buy champagne to have this champagne bath. These people might have marked it as someone that they could get something out of.
34:54 Speaker 01 I mean, it happens every day.
34:55 Speaker 00 It does. Afterwards, Worry arranged transport to get them out of New Orleans. They went to Bradenton where he grew up. However, never didn't know where he was. At one point, she claimed Worry was ordered to commit the murder by the mafia. Okay, that's a, that one's kind of out of left field.
35:17 Speaker 01 The old mafia did it?
35:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, this guy's not a, a union leader, right? He's just there to set up displays for this conference. Why in the world would the mafia have any interest in, in killing Sean Johnson?
35:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, it seems strange, right? I mean, maybe it was a union job, but is that a reason to?
35:39 Speaker 00 But he's, but he's not the, he's not Jimmy Hoffa.
35:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:42 Speaker 00 You know what I'm saying? I don't think he's in a position of such importance that the mafia would take notice. Carla was arrested and charged with murder. Detectives knew she was still holding back information. And, and part of that is probably her changing stories, right? They just don't believe her at this point. Police were still looking for Ben and Worry. Crime Stoppers received a tip identifying Ben. Police were hunting Ben as 24-year-old Benjamin Anthony.
36:12 Speaker 00 A restaurant cook in the French Quarter. Ben was arrested and charged with first degree murder on August 1st, 2003. Detective Winston Harbin visited Ben at his apartment. He could tell that something was weighing on Ben. He asked him if he wanted to talk and Ben said yes. And down to police station, Ben agreed to tell everything he knew.
36:35 Speaker 01 So he's going to cooperate?
36:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, you still have to wonder if he's going to be truthful or not. Yeah, but I do think there are people on both sides or all along the spectrum when it comes to what they're willing to say, right? Some people are like Carla. They come up with an ever changing story to kind of fit the evidence that's thrown in front of them. And then you have people like Ben, who maybe at some point realized that, hey, I'm not getting out of this. This thing's eating me alive. I'm going to come clean because I don't know what else to do. Ben said he left the dungeon with Sean Worry and Carla.
37:22 Speaker 00 They walked to Jackson Square where they met up with Deidre and her friends. Ben didn't know anything about a robbery scheme. He insisted he didn't hear Worry solicit help for the robbery. He thought it was just a champagne party. Sean and Carla purchased 12 bottles of champagne and everyone took a cab to the hotel. Now, like we said, right? I've never had a champagne bath. I know for a fact you've never had one. I'm assuming if you're buying 12 bottles of champagne, you're not buying Dom. You're buying the local liquor store bottom of the barrel stuff because you're just swimming in it, right? You're not even drinking.
38:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, I would think it'd be pointless to spend a hundred bucks or 200 bucks per bottle or more, right? You're going to get that 12.99 special or maybe 6.99.
38:14 Speaker 00 I know. Yeah, I don't know how much the cheap stuff is. After a short time in the room, Ben, Sean and Carla began taking their clothes off and got in the jacuzzi. Ben explained that he was the one who ripped the Bible pages out, dipped them in water and threw them on the walls. But he had no explanation other than just sheer boredom.
38:35 Speaker 01 I was just bored, saw the Bible, start tearing the pages out.
38:39 Speaker 00 Yep. So it didn't have anything to do with a ritual. It didn't have anything to do with even religion. He was just bored and felt like he would rip these pages out, dip them in water and paste them all over the hotel.
38:54 Speaker 01 Okay.
38:55 Speaker 00 I don't know how you get so bored when you got your clothes off and there's a champagne party going on. But again, I've never been involved with one. So maybe at some point he got left out of the festivities.
39:07 Speaker 01 And he's like, yeah, this is no fun for me now. I'm just sitting here naked.
39:10 Speaker 00 And afraid.
39:13 Speaker 00 Sean and Carla started getting physical with each other. The next thing Ben saw was Worry moving towards the tub with a champagne bottle in his hands. Worry came up behind Sean and hit him in the head with the bottle. Ben got out of the tub and stood there in shock. Sean was still conscious, so Worry hit him with another bottle. Worry then forced Sean's head underwater and held him there. So the one thing I will say is, you know, Ben's story, it does kind of align with some of the things that police already knew, right? The hit from the bottle or even multiple hits is not what killed Sean.
39:58 Speaker 00 He was killed by drowning. Ben said he was trying to get his clothes on as he watched the murder. He heard Worry shout something strange, but he was too panicked to recall his exact words. And like we just talked about, right? Ben's statement matched the autopsy findings and I think to police that indicated that he was likely telling the truth.
40:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, his story's aligning with the evidence.
40:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, more so than Carla, right? Who's told a number of stories, some of which didn't fit the evidence or even believability.
40:34 Speaker 00 Ben also claimed Carla, who he knew was never, was not troubled by the murder. He was asked what Carla was doing during the attack. Ben said, she seemed happy, like happy and laughing about it. Once he stopped, I was like standing over there just freaking out. They're like, don't worry, we've done this before. It's all right now.
40:57 Speaker 01 You've done it before.
40:58 Speaker 00 So, you know, if true, I mean, that that's pretty scary. You know, this term rolling, right? To rob someone, it seems is something that they had done, you know, before, who knows how many times? But it also seems like potentially they've killed before.
41:19 Speaker 01 Seems like it based on their response.
41:23 Speaker 00 Ben also explained that Carla left the doll behind by accident in their rush to get out of the room. There was no deeper meaning than that. So we go from, you know, these Bible pages ripped out, put up on the wall. This rag doll left behind, all of it seeming like there's some greater meaning, some ritualistic meaning behind it to, no, none of that. Uh, Ben was just bored, so he did that with the Bible pages and the doll was left behind by accident.
42:00 Speaker 01 You think if, uh, these individuals weren't found, how that case would have continued on, right?
42:09 Speaker 00 Especially with those two facts.
42:12 Speaker 01 Yes.
42:13 Speaker 00 Kind of lingering out there as probably meaning something than more than what it actually turned out they did. Yeah, I think they would have. I'm sure police would have spent a lot of time in effort trying to decipher what those two things meant. When in reality, they didn't really mean anything at all. After they left the hotel, Ben let worry and Carla hide in his apartment for a few hours. He was afraid he would be killed next. The couple watched a movie, ate some dinner and slept for a while. The next morning, they got up, changed clothes and left his apartment. According to him, he never saw them again.
42:53 Speaker 01 But isn't that weird that they're just going on with their night?
42:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I think Ben is making the argument that he only did this because he was afraid they would kill him. And that could be true. That could also be a way to minimize his involvement, but it could be very true.
43:10 Speaker 01 I'm just thinking, it had no impact on these guys.
43:13 Speaker 00 Well, I mean, if you believe Ben, it certainly didn't to worry in Carla. But police still had a problem. They needed to figure out Worry's true identity. A concerned citizen in Florida called the police and reported a home invasion, robbery in Ruskin. A man associated with the house was 24-year-old Chris Lane. He was suspected of possibly robbing his mother. The caller knew that his name was spelled with a K, which helped narrow down the search. She even knew his birthplace and his mother's phone number. On August 1st, Chris was publicly named as a suspect. He had been wanted in Manteet County, Florida for over a year.
43:55 Speaker 00 In January 2002, Chris was convicted of burglarizing a church. He hadn't reported to his probation officer since September 11th, 2002. He was also wanted for failing to appear in another burglary case.
44:11 Speaker 01 That doesn't sound like a an upstanding guy.
44:14 Speaker 00 Well, you know what probation officers don't like?
44:17 Speaker 01 Oh, I know.
44:18 Speaker 00 Is when you don't report in, which I think is in part how you got that ankle monitor.
44:25 Speaker 01 They also hate when you mess with that and deactivate it.
44:28 Speaker 00 Put it on the dog as you leave the house.
44:31 Speaker 01 Yes.
44:32 Speaker 00 Soon after, a woman called Deputy Waldron claiming she knew where Chris was. The informant's conscience forced them to turn Lane in when they read the account of the murder. According to Waldron, per the Bradenton Herald, they said he was a real nice guy and they were debating whether to turn him in. The guy said, I've got to do the right thing. Chris had told the informant he might eat at Denny's on the night of August 1st. Police waited outside the restaurant and staked out the apartment where Chris was staying. And I think, you know, this answers a question that we often ask, you know, who else knows something, right, about what went down or who was involved?
45:17 Speaker 00 And at what point would they decide to turn someone in? Is it for money? When, let's say, a reward gets large enough? In this case, it seems as though it's because of the person's conscience. They just felt like they had to do the right thing. And you would hope it would always be like that, but we know it. That's not how it works.
45:42 Speaker 01 No, just in a perfect world, that's how it would go.
45:45 Speaker 00 Waldron was on his way home after midnight on August 2nd, when he decided to stop at Denny's one last time and saw a vehicle matching the informant's description. He ran the tag and it matched Chris's registration. Waldron called for backup and waited outside for 15 minutes. While Chris finished eating, he was arrested as he walked out. In his post-arrest interview, Chris blamed everything on Carla. He said it was her plan to rob Sean and her idea to kill him. He drank three bottles of champagne at the hotel. The last thing he remembered was Carla, Sean, and Ben in the hot tub. He drifted off on the couch. He woke up to Ben saying, we gotta go.
46:30 Speaker 00 Carla had beaten Sean over the head with a champagne bottle. All right, so first off, he is completely throwing Carla under the bus.
46:38 Speaker 01 He is.
46:40 Speaker 00 Now, to be fair, she threw him under the bus to save, you know, or try to save herself. He's doing the same thing.
46:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:48 Speaker 00 He said that he drank three bottles of champagne.
46:51 Speaker 01 That's why champagne.
46:52 Speaker 00 That's what I was thinking. It's a lot of bubbles, for sure.
46:56 Speaker 01 A lot of indigestion.
46:58 Speaker 00 But he's, you know, giving the story that, oh, he was so drunk, you know, he just kind of passed out. And by the time he woke up, everything had already happened. And people were screaming, hey, we gotta go.
47:11 Speaker 01 I will tell you, the one time I saw my dad.
47:15 Speaker 00 Blotted?
47:16 Speaker 01 Shitfaced, yes. It's because he drank champagne.
47:20 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
47:21 Speaker 01 To the point, I remember they, they had a couple of cases there for some party with all their friends. And the next day, late in the, later in the day, and he was not, not in a great mood when he woke up. Um, headache and all that kind of stuff. Typical hangover, right?
47:38 Speaker 00 Right.
47:39 Speaker 01 He went out to the barn, got a dolly, and I saw him not only taking the remainder of the champagne up to the, uh, the corner of the driveway where the trash would pick it up. Followed up by every other bottle of alcohol in the house boxed up. And he hauled it up there to the point that our neighbors came out and said, what are you doing with this? And my dad told him and they said, can we take it? My dad said, I don't care who takes it. I want it out of here.
48:06 Speaker 00 It was that bad that he decided I'm not drinking.
48:09 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was a while before he, uh, started drinking and, you know, uh, certain things occasionally.
48:15 Speaker 00 Carla's murder trial started on August 25th, 2005. She testified that she was afraid of Chris and was unaware of his plans to rob and kill Sean. Ben Anthony testified against Carla in exchange for a reduced sentence. He described Carla as giddy and excited during the murder.
48:36 Speaker 01 Which seems like something a participant would do.
48:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. It really gives off some kind of natural born killers type vibe.
48:45 Speaker 01 Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly.
48:46 Speaker 00 I mean, you're giddy and excited while someone is being killed. Carla was charged with second degree murder, but on August 27th, 2005, the jury found her guilty of negligent homicide. Ben pleaded guilty to accessory after the fact. And, you know, and an interesting kind of side note, Carla's trial was the last criminal jury trial before Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans. The hurricane delayed her sentencing.
49:18 Speaker 01 I think it delayed a lot of things for a while.
49:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, New Orleans especially. The courthouse didn't open up until almost a year after the hurricane. A lot of evidence was lost due to flooding, which affected numerous cases.
49:33 Speaker 01 I can't even imagine what that impact was.
49:36 Speaker 00 No, now for her, she's already been found guilty. Only her sentencing was delayed. But you think about people who hadn't gone to trial yet. What if like, I'm sure it did happen, critical evidence was washed away during this hurricane. They might've gotten away or you know, the, the state might not have been able to make their case anymore.
50:00 Speaker 01 I'm sure there was a handful like that.
50:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure it happened. CBS reported in October 2005 that prosecutors didn't know whether the champagne bottle used as the murder weapon was destroyed or buried by floodwater. The hurricane also forced witnesses, jurors and attorneys to leave the state. Prosecution resumed 11 months later. Carla was sentenced to five years in prison and Benjamin Anthony was sentenced to four years. And I, I thought that was a little bit strange, right? Ben Anthony testified against Carla.
50:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:39 Speaker 00 In exchange for a reduced sentence, she's charged with second degree murder. But the jury only finds her guilty of negligent homicide. So she, she only got one year longer than Ben did.
50:54 Speaker 01 It doesn't seem right, does it?
50:55 Speaker 00 Not if she truly was this bigger participant than he was. If she was giddy, if she was excited. Deirdre cooperated with investigators, so she was never charged. On May 12th, 2006, Chris Lane pleaded guilty to manslaughter and robbery to avoid a capital murder trial. On June 6th, he received a 40 year sentence for manslaughter and five years for robbery. And I don't know, I don't know if that's all that tough of a decision to make. There's already been a couple of convictions in this case. Is it hard to believe that you're going to be found guilty?
51:36 Speaker 00 Especially when most likely some of these people are going to be testifying against you and you're facing capital murder.
51:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it was a smart deal to go ahead and just plead guilty.
51:50 Speaker 00 No, he's still got a lengthy sentence, but it wasn't life in prison and it certainly wasn't a death sentence. On March 1st, 2013, prison guards found Chris Lane dead in his cell in an apparent suicide. He was 33 years old. So if you think about it, Gibbs, you know, accepting a 40 year sentence, and he might not even have done the entire 40 years, but even if he had, he would have been in his 60s when he got out.
52:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:23 Speaker 00 Now, that's a, that's a pretty big chunk of your life, but you did kill someone, but he would have been out in time to at least have a life. On March 9th, 2023, the Mobile Police Department received a call about people stealing a fire hydrant in front of a bank. Officers found the suspect vehicle and conducted a traffic stop. The fire hydrant was in the truck along with a firearm and drugs. Police arrested 43-year-old Keith Haley and 39-year-old Carla Frog. Haley was charged with first degree theft of services and carrying a concealed weapon. Carla was charged with first degree theft of property,
53:05 Speaker 00 possession of a controlled substance, and possession of drug paraphernalia. News outlets reported on Carla's connection to the murder.
53:13 Speaker 01 They'll still get in trouble.
53:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, now it's many years after the fact, but my question is, who in the world is stealing a fire hydrant? What are you doing with this fire hydrant? Also, if you're going to do this, why do you have a firearm and drugs in the, in the truck? None of it seems smart.
53:35 Speaker 01 It doesn't.
53:36 Speaker 00 In September of that year, Carla was charged with possession of a controlled substance and chemical endangerment of a child after her child was found in possession of drug paraphernalia at school.
53:50 Speaker 01 That's not good. That's a problem.
53:52 Speaker 00 No, like you, you've got stuff out. You've got little kids. And what, you know, this kid is just picking your drug paraphernalia up, putting it in her backpack. I mean, you're not in mother of the year territory right here. I gotta be honest.
54:09 Speaker 01 Did you ever take any of your mom or dad's?
54:12 Speaker 00 Drug paraphernalia? No, I don't believe I did. Also, my mom and dad were not into drugs. So I'm gonna say no to that one.
54:19 Speaker 01 I was gonna say, I was pretty sure you would say that they weren't. But, you know, just had to double check. That's a really nice bong you have there, mom. I'm gonna take it to the school with me.
54:32 Speaker 00 But, you know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I do wonder a lot about the involvement of Carla and Ben. It seems to me that, that Ben was being pretty truthful. There's no way to know that for sure.
54:48 Speaker 01 Sure.
54:49 Speaker 00 But at least he wasn't proven to be a liar. I think Carla was proven to have lied multiple times and changed her story.
54:59 Speaker 01 Definitely feel like there's some conflicting information about her.
55:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, it just seems like if what Ben Anthony said was true, Carla might have had quite a bit more involvement in this than what she was really held accountable for. I, I think there's, the case can be made for that. Now, you know, the jury found her guilty of what they did. She did her time. She's gotten in trouble since then. I don't know what you make of that. I don't know what that has to do. But when it comes down to it, you know, this is, um, it's a very sad case.
55:41 Speaker 00 You have this very outgoing person, right? And Sean Johnson, he's eager to have some fun, meet new people in a city he's never been to. He's friendly. He's open. And, you know, he had no idea that his fun night out would put him in the path of these kind of predators who ultimately saw him as a, a target.
56:08 Speaker 01 I think he's just like, gonna have me some fun, a little champagne bath, maybe a little something, something happens and it's all good.
56:17 Speaker 00 And I think the whole time, he was a mark to these people. I think the question is, how many of these people, right? Who knew that he was going to be robbed and killed? Was it all of them? Or was it just Chris Lane? Who made that decision, once they got there, maybe the, the whole group knew that they were gonna rob him.
56:44 Speaker 01 Right.
56:45 Speaker 00 But Chris decided to, to kill him. I, I don't know. We only know what people have said and what they, um.
56:54 Speaker 01 Have been convicted of.
56:55 Speaker 00 Yeah. And, and you know, the, the sentence they served. But that's it for our episode on Shawn Johnson. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
57:04 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
57:05 Speaker 02 Hi, hi, this is Gibby. My name's Tori. I'm a long time listener, first time caller. Team Gibby, sorry, Mike. I just wanted to call because I was listening to your DC arsonist episode today when I was in the car with my 94 year old grandfather. And you guys sure said masturbate an awful lot and it got super awkward, even though he can't hear very well. I'm pretty sure he picked up on some of it. Made my 36 year old self blush like no other.
57:36 Speaker 02 Anyways, I just thought I'd share that little anecdote with you guys. Keep doing what you're doing. Love, love, love, love, love your podcast. And what's the tagline? Keep your own time, take it. Talk to you guys later. Bye.
57:51 Speaker 00 I'm sure grandpa knew what we were saying.
57:53 Speaker 01 He completely understood about masturbation.
57:57 Speaker 00 Now, we did say it a lot, but it's, it was kind of integral to the story. I felt like we weren't saying it for no reason.
58:04 Speaker 01 You said masturbation all the time in that story.
58:07 Speaker 00 Well, the guy was doing that about these fires and, and all that. You had to talk about it.
58:14 Speaker 01 You even said masturbation after the podcast was done. I was like, why are you still talking about masturbation?
58:19 Speaker 00 You're just trying to see how many times you can say it.
58:21 Speaker 01 Masturbation?
58:22 Speaker 00 Yeah.
58:24 Speaker 00 Uh, but we appreciate the, the voicemail very much. It is cool. She was listening with her, uh. 94 year old grandfather. Yeah. It reminds me of the time that my wife and I watched the movie Superbad with Jonah Hill, with, uh, her mom and dad. Oh. And it got very awkward. There's some racy scenes in that movie and I was, we were a lot younger. Today I wouldn't, I wouldn't care. I've known them forever, but back then I hadn't known them as long. It was a little awkward during some of the, the sex scenes and, and some of the other stuff.
59:01 Speaker 00 But having said that, that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike. And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
Previous Jose Herran Next William Walker Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated