Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Louis Davidson About this episode Louis Davidson was a well-known emergency room doctor in the Tampa Bay Area. In January 1994, Louis was brutally beaten and murdered in his own home. Investigators discovered a trail of evidence pointing to Louis’s estranged wife, Denise.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Louis Davidson. The authorities had to untangle a web of lies and the connection between several people to discover the truth. But when it was all said and done, they pieced together a murder for hire plot that involved a custody battle and insurance proceeds.
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Transcript 0:34 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 472 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
0:45 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing really well, man. How about you?
0:47 Speaker 00 I'm doing awesome.
0:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:49 Speaker 00 You and I are sitting in the new studio finally.
0:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm so stoked, man.
0:54 Speaker 00 We've been talking about it. It's finally here. You know, if you're on Patreon, then you probably saw it yesterday because we did our weekly Patreon video from the new studio. You know, if you're not on Patreon, now's a great time to sign up. But also, we recorded our first second episode of TCAT for the week that we're going to start putting out, you know, two episodes a week. That will come out Thursday morning.
1:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:25 Speaker 00 So it'll be ready for everyone's commute Thursday or Friday, or maybe even the weekend. But it's also up on YouTube as video and then it's on, you know, the regular podcast feed as audio. So if you're not subscribed to our YouTube channel yet, go out there, subscribe. Doesn't cost anything, but really helps us out.
1:47 Speaker 01 Oh, I'm loving it, man. I haven't seen so much wood in one place outside of watching the gemstones.
1:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, you did see a lot of wood in that.
1:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, you did.
1:56 Speaker 00 But you also have your own space. No longer can anybody say Gibby doesn't have a desk. Gibby doesn't have a nice chair. The setup is exactly the same. I feel like I got a promotion. Well, basically you did. You know? Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Roz Tron. Hey Roz. Elizabeth Spurber. Oh, the Spurber. Tasha Kearney. Hey, thanks Kearney. Niam D. What up D? Tracy Nelson. Hey Nelson. Lori Papeski. Hey Papeski. Terry. Well, good old Terry. Danielle Shen. Oh, there's Danielle. And last but not least, Wanda Shepherd jumped out at her highest level. Wanda, Wanda, Wanda. Thank you so much.
2:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, we appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault.
2:46 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Sarah Redd. Thanks Sarah, you're awesome. Yeah, appreciate that long-term support. Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Lester Eubanks. This is a man who was sentenced to death in 1965 for murder. His death sentence was commuted to life. And then he was able to charm his way into kind of the, the prison's honor program, which gave him the opportunity to escape in 1973. And this guy's been on the run ever since. That's a long time to be on a run. Yeah, he's on the US Marshals Most Wanted list. So a little bit of a different type of unsolved for us.
3:30 Speaker 00 And maybe some of the folks that can't handle unsolved will like this one. To me, it's kind of a mystery. Yeah, because there's finality to the crimes he committed, you know, but then he's on the run. So I mentioned a new episode coming out every Thursday. Yeah. And the first one coming out this Thursday morning is on Libby Adame. And this is a woman who, along with her daughter, was essentially building up this social media, you know, following by offering silicone butt injections at low prices.
4:12 Speaker 00 The problem is, she wasn't licensed to do any of this. And the illegal procedures killed at least three women and disfigured dozens more. That's why I always pay good money for my butt injections. Yeah, and you should. But make sure you check that out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
4:34 Speaker 01 I am.
4:35 Speaker 00 Louis Davidson was a well-known emergency room doctor in the Tampa Bay area. In January 1994, Louis was brutally beaten and murdered in his own home. Investigators discovered a trail of evidence pointing to a person very well-known to Louis, someone in his life. Denise Davidson was born in 1960 and grew up in Kingston, Jamaica. She was the third of seven children. Denise was a finalist in the Miss Jamaica Pageant and worked as a swimsuit and calendar model.
5:12 Speaker 01 So something in common.
5:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, I know you've done a lot of calendar work.
5:19 Speaker 00 Usually has the title Beefcake of Something in it.
5:22 Speaker 01 I was kind of referring to you and your swimsuit modeling days.
5:25 Speaker 00 Oh, I did do some of that.
5:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:28 Speaker 00 But you used to bring in these calendars, the beefcakes of, I don't know.
5:33 Speaker 01 The good UPS days?
5:34 Speaker 00 The Midwest, beefcakes of UPS. Nobody really wanted to see them, but you kept bringing them in anyway.
5:41 Speaker 01 Well, we had a lot left over that nobody wanted to buy. We couldn't even give them away.
5:45 Speaker 00 In the early 1980s, Denise started dating Louis Davidson, a medical student who was five years older than her. Louis was also raised in Kingston. Louis and Denise got married in August 1982 in Jamaica. The following year, they moved to Tampa, Florida. Their daughter Natalie was born in 1986. So you know, Gibbs, I'm going to Jamaica this year.
6:10 Speaker 01 You are.
6:11 Speaker 00 My daughter is getting married there.
6:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, I already, man.
6:14 Speaker 00 I'm looking forward to it.
6:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:15 Speaker 00 Denise stayed home with their daughter and Louis became the head of the pediatric emergency room at Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg.
6:25 Speaker 01 Impressive.
6:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty prestigious position.
6:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:30 Speaker 00 Sounds like Louis and Denise began having problems in their marriage and eventually separated. Louis moved into his own apartment in February 1991, according to the Tampa Tribune.
6:44 Speaker 00 And unfortunately, we've talked about it many times, right? This happens.
6:48 Speaker 01 It does.
6:49 Speaker 00 You know, people get married with the best of intentions. Nobody gets married saying, ah, this, we're not going to make it.
6:58 Speaker 01 That's a, that's a bad way to start.
6:59 Speaker 00 It is. Now, they might realize it sooner than others into the marriage. But, you know, not all marriages are, are meant to be. And people do separate and ultimately divorce. Louis and Denise initiated divorce proceedings in October 1993. And it was said, Gibbs, that this was a really contentious divorce. There were allegations of physical violence, infidelity, and mental cruelty, as well as a custody battle over their daughter.
7:33 Speaker 01 Well, some serious, uh, charges.
7:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, no doubt about it.
7:38 Speaker 01 Well, when two people don't like each other anymore, the cruelty begins. I mean, just watch like the original War of Roses.
7:47 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, yeah. Is that the Dane DeVito and?
7:51 Speaker 01 Michael Douglas.
7:52 Speaker 00 Michael Douglas.
7:53 Speaker 01 And Catherine or, uh, can't remember her last name.
7:57 Speaker 00 I know who you're talking about, but Dane DeVito, wasn't he in that too?
8:00 Speaker 01 He was in it too, yeah.
8:00 Speaker 00 Okay, I thought he was.
8:01 Speaker 01 He was one of the attorneys, I think.
8:03 Speaker 00 But I think what can exacerbate it even more is a custody battle. Right? A battle over the, the kids. We see that in a lot of cases.
8:14 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
8:15 Speaker 00 And it can turn ugly.
8:16 Speaker 01 It can.
8:17 Speaker 00 It seemed like both Louis and Denise had moved on romantically during the separation. Louis was engaged to his ER coworker, Patricia Donina. Denise was dating Leonardo Cisneros, whom she met on a trip home to Jamaica. Leo owned a bar and restaurant in Kingston. On January 25th, 1994, police officer Eli J. Hartzig was on patrol when he received a call about a dead body at the Thunder Bay Apartments in northern St. Petersburg. Once he arrived on the scene, he encountered Patricia De Nino, who said the victim was her fiance, Dr. Louis Davidson.
9:02 Speaker 00 And inside Louis's apartment was a very gruesome crime scene. Louis was found face down in a bathtub full of bloody water. He had been blindfolded, gagged, and his hands and feet were bound behind him with an electrical cord pulled from a vacuum cleaner.
9:22 Speaker 01 Okay, it does sound brutal.
9:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's a very nasty scene because you know that Louis is the victim. Went through just a horrible ordeal. His autopsy determined he suffered three broken ribs, bruises on his face, and multiple lacerations to the back of the head caused by a blunt object. And his cause of death was ruled as drowning.
9:52 Speaker 01 I mean, when you hear this, when you look at this, you know, this scene, at least for me, it doesn't jump out as a robbery, right? To me, it jumps out as somebody who's really pissed off at this guy.
10:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, I get what you're saying because if you're only there to rob, do you really need to go through all of this? You know, we kind of talk about it all the time. Could you not just tie people up if you're wearing a mask or whatever? They don't know who you are. You don't have to kill them. To get what you want, I think, you know, there is further proof of that. Because even though the apartment appeared to have been ransacked, the intruder left behind a bag with over $19,000 in cash inside.
10:43 Speaker 01 Well, if it's a robbery, you're not going to leave that behind, right?
10:46 Speaker 00 No.
10:47 Speaker 01 $19,000?
10:49 Speaker 00 That is, that is a lot of money. Investigators also found a footprint for a size nine Voight shoe in the front foyer of the apartment. Patricia told detectives she spoke to Louis in the morning. When she couldn't get ahold of him that afternoon, she went to his apartment and found his body. She reported that Louis had recently been receiving hang up calls. Detectives suspected someone was trying to track his movements. So what do you think there with the hang up calls? Trying to figure out if he's at home, not at home?
11:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think so. You know, let me call this number. If he answers, I know his location. What you do with that? I don't know. Are you, are you tracking data to determine when the best time is to go over there to catch them there?
11:36 Speaker 00 Well, I think potentially you could, over a period of time, get to know somebody's schedule. If you knew what times they were home,
11:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:45 Speaker 00 You might get a sense of, okay, when do they leave from, for work? What time do they get home from work? Investigators soon learned about the contentious divorce and the ongoing custody battle with Denise, who had been threatening to move back to Jamaica with their daughter. Denise was interviewed at her home in Tampa. Soon after the murder, she claimed that she had no reason to want Louis dead because he was the father of her child. She also claimed that her boyfriend Leo was in Jamaica at the time of the murder. Now, obviously Denise is going to be looked at. She is the soon to be ex spouse, right? They're going through this divorce.
12:27 Speaker 00 It's contentious. There's a custody battle going on. So, I mean, it's a little tough for her to claim that she had no reason to want Louis dead solely based on the fact that he was the father of her child. The custody battle alone could be a reason.
12:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, I think the police have to dig into it a little bit. Look at financials, look at potential life insurance, things like that.
12:57 Speaker 00 Well, and they also have to look into Leo a little bit as well. When detectives looked into his background, they learned he was involved with drug posses in Jamaica.
13:10 Speaker 01 Well, that's probably going to set some flags off.
13:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, maybe he's not kind of walking the quote unquote, straight and narrow, right? He's into some things that maybe would make it more likely that he might be able to be violent. Several years earlier, he was arrested during a traffic stop in Georgia and a warrant was issued for trafficking narcotics. So based on his past, investigators thought Leo was the type of person who would have at least known people willing to commit murder. And that makes sense to me. Maybe he wasn't a person who would commit it, but could he have known people who would have done it?
13:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, for a little bit of money.
13:57 Speaker 00 Denise was put under surveillance and her financial records were subpoenaed. Detectives eventually learned that Denise was pregnant with Leo's child and that Louis had a life insurance policy worth $400,000, of which Denise was the beneficiary.
14:17 Speaker 01 Okay, so now you have motive.
14:19 Speaker 00 Well, even more motive, right? We talked about the custody.
14:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:22 Speaker 00 But $400,000 is a boatload of money.
14:26 Speaker 01 It is.
14:27 Speaker 00 And it's quite a bit of motive. In February, police released their first substantive in the investigation. Officers said they were looking for a man with a dark complexion, who was seen outside Louis's apartment between 10 a.m. and noon on January 25th. He was seen playing with a ball with a blonde woman who spoke in a British accent. This woman was also spotted in a foreign car, such as a Toyota or Nissan. She told a passerby her boyfriend was apartment hunting.
15:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, kind of British accent she had.
15:07 Speaker 00 Oh, my gosh. How come the British is the only part that comes out correctly? The rest of it always morphs into something unrecognizable.
15:17 Speaker 01 Oh, I disagree.
15:19 Speaker 00 That wasn't bad. That wasn't bad. Bank records showed that over the course of six months Denise Davidson made 21 payments totaling $15,000 via Western Union to a man named Robert Roy Gordon and a woman named Carol Casey. Okay, your husband's been murdered, right? You're soon to be ex, but he's still her husband. They're going to tear apart your financial records. There's, they're going to tear apart your life. They have to rule you out or rule you in. These 21 payments.
15:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:58 Speaker 00 Why are you paying these people a total of $15,000 using Western Union?
16:05 Speaker 01 I mean, it's suspicious. And I mean, if you're thinking, well, did she pay them to do this hit? I mean, 15,000 to get 400,000 plus custody and all that? That's pretty cheap.
16:22 Speaker 00 Well, it turned out that Gordon was an associate of Leo's and he had a criminal record. Gordon had been charged with rape and kidnapping in the past, but the charges were later dropped. Denise's phone records showed that she called a pager over 50 times on the morning of the murder. The mobile phone that returned the calls to her was one she purchased herself.
16:46 Speaker 01 Huh.
16:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think if you're the police, you're like, yeah, huh. But also, okay, something is, uh, is not adding up here. I mean, what else could you make of it? But she bought this burner phone or whatever it was.
17:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:06 Speaker 00 And gave it to the person she wanted to call her back when she paged. I mean, what other logical explanation is there really? You're not calling yourself.
17:18 Speaker 01 No.
17:19 Speaker 00 You're not paging yourself and then calling yourself back and saying, hey, did you page me? Yes, I did. What do you want to talk about? I don't know. Let's get lunch.
17:28 Speaker 01 It's like UV's dropped on some of my conversations.
17:31 Speaker 00 Well, they're not hard because you're having them with yourself just like that.
17:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:38 Speaker 00 Police traced this mobile phone from outside Louis's apartment to a day's inn on the other side of Tampa Bay. Witnesses at the day's inn identified Robert Gordon and said he shared a room with a white woman with blonde hair. This woman identified as Susan Shore, paid for the room with her real name. She told the desk clerk she didn't need a room to sleep in, she just needed to change clothes.
18:06 Speaker 01 Oh, why is that?
18:08 Speaker 00 Might be a question the desk clerk was thinking. I don't know, maybe you wouldn't ask, but it's, it's strange, right? To rent a room that you're not going to stay the night in. Now, I get it. There are some, you know, motels that kind of, I don't want to say rent rooms by the hour, but you know, you know what I mean.
18:30 Speaker 01 Are those the hotels that, or motels that you put the quarters in the little thing at the edge of the bed? It shakes the bed?
18:40 Speaker 00 Well, there was a lot of motels back in the day that used to have those, but.
18:45 Speaker 01 Did you like those? How it shook the bed?
18:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, I liked them. You seem to have a lot of knowledge of these motels that may or may not be rented by the hour.
18:56 Speaker 01 You know, hotel motel, Holiday Inn.
18:58 Speaker 00 Exactly. Robert Gordon and Suzanne Shore were with another man who checked out in a hurry. They left behind several clothing items, which the hotel still had in lost and found. Among the clothing were a bloodstained pair of size nine Voight sneakers and a gray sweatshirt. The sneakers matched the shoe print found at the crime scene.
19:22 Speaker 01 Never heard of Voight. Have you heard of Voight?
19:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, Voight is, I don't even know if they're still around, but they used to be like a sporting goods. They made like tennis rackets.
19:33 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
19:34 Speaker 00 And so I didn't know they made shoes, but it doesn't surprise me.
19:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:39 Speaker 00 I thought they were more like on the tennis type side of things back in the day. Investigators also determined that the day before the murder, Denise used her credit card at the Walmart behind her house to purchase a pair of size nine Voight sneakers and a gray sweatshirt that was the same brand as the one found in the hotel room. Gibbs, if we could do one episode where somebody didn't have evidence that stacks up against them that comes from Walmart, Home Depot, or Lowe's, it would be a miracle.
20:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think it's gonna happen.
20:18 Speaker 00 On February 28th, 1994, authorities arrested Robert Gordon in Miami and charged him with first degree murder. Police claimed Gordon beat Louis on the head and drowned him in the tub. So, I mean, things are going south very quickly, right? Definitely for Robert Gordon, but you'd also have to say that Denise is in the crosshairs here.
20:43 Speaker 01 I don't think she's feeling good about what's happening.
20:45 Speaker 00 No, the evidence is stacking up against her as well. And you'd probably have to put Leo in that same boat as well. Was reported that witnesses at the apartment complex identified Gordon as the man lingering in the complex parking lot on the day of the murder. He was also identified by witnesses at the Tampa motel. At the time, police had not yet revealed the motive, and they were withholding a lot of details from the public.
21:15 Speaker 01 Which is pretty common.
21:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think it's a pretty standard procedure, right? In these cases that are solved, we don't make a big deal about it. I think where it does come into play is in some of our unsolved cases where five, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years goes by, and police are still holding those details. And it seems like details that could really help the investigation along.
21:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, kinda like our unsolved last week.
21:48 Speaker 00 Yes. Yeah, we actually saw it in that one. After Gordon was arrested, detectives went to the home of Carol Kason, the second individual who received payments from Denise, and found her with a man named Tony Bones. However, a fingerprint check revealed his real name was Merrill McDonald. And McDonald had a warrant out for his arrest on drug charges. Carol admitted to receiving money on his behalf, but police determined she had nothing to do with the murder. So my thought is, you know, if you're Carol Casey, you're sweating. Police come at you. Hey, why did you get these payments from Denise?
22:30 Speaker 00 It ultimately comes out, she, she did get them, but it was for somebody else. But before that was known or police bought that, I mean, she had to be sweating bullets, right?
22:44 Speaker 01 Oh, she had to be. She definitely wasn't sleeping at night.
22:46 Speaker 00 But due to a paperwork mix up, McDonald was released before he could be charged with murder. He fled to New York and he wasn't apprehended for months. And you do hear about that every now and then. Okay, I get it. There's a lot of paperwork involved. Things can go a little haywire, wires can get crossed. It's not like they're just going to say, oh, well, he's gone.
23:12 Speaker 01 Right, right.
23:13 Speaker 00 Yeah, they're, they're going to track him down. Authorities searched Denise's home on March 2nd, but police wouldn't comment on what they were looking for. Denise's attorney, John Fitzgibbons, told the Tampa Tribune. The police seemed to be under a lot of pressure to solve this case. And it looks to me like they were snooping about trying to find something that doesn't exist. Well, number one, I'm sure they were under a lot of pressure. I think police by and large are under pressure to solve every murder.
23:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, that should be just a standard thing. We have an unsolved murder, let's get it solved.
23:53 Speaker 00 Denise's defense attorney noted that much of what was confiscated could have been subpoenaed from banks or the phone company. All right, that might be true.
24:03 Speaker 01 I kind of think it's more impactful when it happens the way it happened, though.
24:07 Speaker 00 Oh, like when you invade somebody's home and go through it? Yeah, oh yeah. You know, you think about the scene in Goodfellas when they kind of raid the home, right? Now, they were kind of calm and collected about it, I think, because they'd probably gone through it before, but you know, that's got to be a harrowing experience for most people.
24:28 Speaker 01 Imagine if yours or my place got raided?
24:32 Speaker 00 I can imagine your place getting raided, not mine, because I'm pretty squeaky clean. You, however, live on the razor's edge.
24:40 Speaker 01 Well, you know, I can't deny.
24:43 Speaker 00 Through wiretaps, police learned that Denise was considering fleeing the country. So if she didn't already have enough, you know, making her look bad, when police find out that you're thinking about fleeing? Okay.
24:59 Speaker 01 I mean, that's just putting a big spotlight on yourself.
25:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, it just makes you look guilty, even more guilty. On March 14th, 1994, Denise was arrested at the Tampa International Airport. A few hours before boarding a flight to Jamaica, officers stood behind her at the ticket counter. And they watched her purchase a one-way ticket. She was immediately arrested and charged with first degree murder.
25:26 Speaker 01 Wonder if they were on their little ear walkie talkie thingies and said, after she purchased.
25:31 Speaker 00 Swarm, swarm, swarm. Maybe. I think the one-way ticket though, right, leaves little doubt as to your intentions.
25:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, you could try to explain, well, I didn't know what data I wanted to come back on.
25:44 Speaker 00 Sure.
25:45 Speaker 01 I left it open, but I think most people would say, no, you didn't plan on coming back at all.
25:51 Speaker 00 But then your attorney is kind of left to craft a narrative for that. And Denise's attorney told the press that she had planned to fly home to visit her parents. She purchased the one-way ticket to Jamaica, but had made a reservation to return later in March. It was reported that Denise had recently left her sales manager job and left her daughter with friends, who enrolled her in a school on the East Coast.
26:18 Speaker 01 I mean, that's a big change.
26:20 Speaker 00 That's a life altering change. Both of those doesn't seem like somebody who is just going on a trip for a short period of time.
26:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:34 Speaker 00 That seems like somebody who's making plans to be away for a long time and possibly never coming back.
26:43 Speaker 01 Maybe felt placing her daughter with these friends was the best thing she could do for her daughter.
26:49 Speaker 00 After the arrest, it was reported that the 55 calls Denise made on the day of the murder were to Robert Gordon's pager. She paid him before and after the murder.
27:01 Speaker 01 Well, if that doesn't look suspicious, I don't know what does.
27:05 Speaker 00 No, I mean, I think really the walls are closing in.
27:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:09 Speaker 00 Right. Court records showed that Leo Sisneros fingerprints were also found on a Western Union money transfer receipt linked to the accused hitman, Robert Gordon. So, Robert is Leo's connection. Denise is paying Robert, but there's also fingerprints of Leo's found. I think not too hard if you're the police, if you're the prosecutor to put it together, right? Denise wanted it done, most likely reached out to her boyfriend, Leo. He knows this guy named Robert. So they're trying to put some distance, but they did,
27:52 Speaker 00 they did a terrible job because the evidence connects them all back together.
27:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:57 Speaker 00 Leo carried a cell phone that was often used to call Gordon's pager. Denise paid for the phone, but a friend told police she gave it to Leo to use. Court records also showed that when police searched Denise's home, they were looking for documentation involving Leo, Gordon, or Gordon's acquaintance, Carol Kason, who told authorities Gordon paid her to pick up money on his behalf. So why would you pay, give someone money to pick up money from, let's say, a Western Union?
28:33 Speaker 01 Well, because you're gonna be nervous that there might be somebody waiting for you there.
28:37 Speaker 00 Or possibly surveillance, or you know, something like that. On March 10th, police announced they were searching for Suzanne Shore, believed to be an accomplice in the murder. The Tampa Tribune reported that two weeks after the murder, Susan had been arrested in Dade County for drunk driving and leaving the scene of an accident, but she was released after posting bail. Although they didn't know her whereabouts, police didn't think she could have traveled far since she didn't have much money. Detectives also traveled to Jamaica to talk to Leo Cisneros. According to Mark DeSaro, the detective who interviewed him, one of the interesting things that
29:21 Speaker 00 Leo said to us was, what would happen if I told you I sent somebody there to beat him up? And they just got carried away.
29:32 Speaker 01 That is an interesting thing to say.
29:35 Speaker 00 Well, it's always interesting when somebody brings up a quasi hypothetical situation. Because to me, it's almost like he's crafting a narrative or a defense. Yeah, I did send this guy there, but I only told him to beat the guy up.
30:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:01 Speaker 00 He got carried away and he killed him. Now I'll still get in trouble, but maybe I won't get murdered.
30:08 Speaker 01 Right.
30:09 Speaker 00 That's what, to me, it seems like he's trying to do. It turns out that Susan Shore had traveled since her February arrest. On March 22nd, she was arrested in Port Royal, Jamaica. Susan immediately cooperated with investigators and claimed that she was an unknowing accomplice. She told authorities she befriended Robert Gordon and Merrill McDonald. After meeting them at Hialeah Park Racing and Casino outside Miami. She didn't know anything about the murder, but agreed to drive them to Louis's apartment for a hundred dollars. After the murder, she drove the men back to the Days Inn Motel.
30:53 Speaker 00 Leo Sisneros and Denise Davidson later met them there.
30:58 Speaker 01 Not sounding good.
30:59 Speaker 00 Well, what I would say is you better be careful what you agree to do for money. Is let's just say this is true and this woman knew nothing about the murder.
31:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:11 Speaker 00 And somebody said to her, hey, will you take us there for a hundred dollars and drive us back? Right? And then it later turns out that someone was murdered. Okay, you could potentially be charged with a serious crime.
31:28 Speaker 01 Could be.
31:29 Speaker 00 For being the driver.
31:31 Speaker 01 Definitely going to cause you some problems until you, uh, work things out with the police.
31:36 Speaker 00 And they believe your story.
31:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:38 Speaker 00 And, and maybe even then, even if they do believe it, you're probably going to have to cooperate to get out of charges. I would think they would hold that over your head.
31:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's not like you were a Uber driver.
31:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, that, that makes sense. That would be harder, right? For police to kind of lump you in with all of these people.
32:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:04 Speaker 00 Susan's statements allowed authorities to secure an arrest warrant for Leo. But by the time they got to Jamaica, he had fled the country. So I think he knew Gibbs that it was just a matter of time. They were on to him and they were going to come after him.
32:20 Speaker 01 So he got out of Dodge.
32:22 Speaker 00 In early May, authorities issued warrants for both Leo and Merrill McDonald, who they believed was involved in attacking and murdering Louis with Robert Gordon. On October 13th, Merrill was taken into custody in New York City. But by this time, Leo still hadn't been located. After the arrest, it was reported that hairs found on the bloody sweatshirt, recovered by police, matched McDonald and fibers on the sweatshirt, matched Louis's green cashmere coat. The belt of that coat was used to tie his hands, per the arrest affidavit. So, you know, quite a bit of evidence, right? It's piling up against these individuals.
33:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was just thinking that, you know, it's really mounting up against them.
33:10 Speaker 00 Susan Shore was released on bond in January 1995. Papers announced that she agreed to testify against her cooffenders on the day of her arrest. Her attorney, Jim Martin, said Susan unwittingly drove these two guys, Gordon and McDonald, to St. Pete, thinking they were going to get a document, not kill some guy. And obviously, that has to be her defense. I had no idea when I agreed to drive these guys to this place that they were going there to murder someone.
33:46 Speaker 01 Right. Well, the best thing she could do is to turn around and work with the police on this one.
33:52 Speaker 00 Prosecutor Fred Schaub agreed that no evidence had been found to refute this claim, and Susan had no knowledge a murder was going to be committed. He said his office would probably drop the first degree murder charge against Susan in exchange for accessory after the fact. And that's still, you know, a pretty serious charge.
34:13 Speaker 01 I'm gonna say that that still has to sting, right?
34:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, but it's nothing compared to first degree murder.
34:19 Speaker 01 Probably makes you a little bit nervous, all those times you used to help me by driving me places.
34:25 Speaker 00 Dude, I am nervous about everything you and I have ever done together. Because I don't know what you had done right before I drove you somewhere. I don't know what you did after.
34:41 Speaker 01 You ever get nervous when you hear a knock at the door?
34:44 Speaker 00 No, because I know I wittingly have never done anything wrong.
34:49 Speaker 01 Oh, because I'd get nervous a lot.
34:51 Speaker 00 I imagine you would. Robert Gordon and Merrill McDonald's trial started on June 7th, 1995. Denise Davidson was supposed to stand trial with them, but she received a separate trial because her lawyer was hospitalized in May due to a heart problem. The jury heard that at the time of his death, Louis Davidson had insurance worth $354,000, and that Denise was the beneficiary. Denise's boyfriend Leo, who was still on the run, believed Louis was physically abusive to Denise.
35:30 Speaker 01 Well. He's going to believe what he's been told and maybe that's the truth, but at the end of the day, he's hearing it from one side of the party. So he's going to believe what this person that he's in love with is telling him.
35:44 Speaker 00 But what does that mean? That he was willing to participate, or maybe a better word is facilitate the murder of Louis because, you know, he was abusive towards Denise, or that he thought he might share in some of this $354,000, or a combination of both, maybe?
36:08 Speaker 01 Well, I think if you've got to cross that line, I think in some individuals, crossing that line becomes a little bit easier if you can make the person that you're going to harm a bad guy, a bad person.
36:22 Speaker 00 Oh, that that does make a lot of sense to me.
36:24 Speaker 01 And then also you see that you have this financial incentive coming in too, maybe.
36:32 Speaker 00 That's almost like the cherry on top.
36:34 Speaker 01 Exactly.
36:35 Speaker 00 The jury also heard that in January 1994 alone, Denise made 232 calls to Robert Gordon's pager. 55 of those were made on the morning Louis was killed.
36:50 Speaker 01 I mean, 55 calls on the morning of? I mean, that's extreme.
36:57 Speaker 00 Yeah, I keep telling you, man, I don't even know if I make 55 calls in a month to all the people I know.
37:04 Speaker 01 I don't know if you make 55 calls a year.
37:06 Speaker 00 I don't either. But I certainly can never imagine making 55 calls in a day to one person. Now, I get it, these were calls to pagers. And you know what that was like back then? You might have to send multiple messages or calls with your phone number to get somebody to return it. So it may be not that they had spoken 55 different times, but.
37:37 Speaker 00 It still might point to the urgency of what they needed to talk about, and it just doesn't look good, the connection.
37:47 Speaker 01 I would have threw the pager through the, through the damn wall. There's a lot of pages coming.
37:52 Speaker 00 If you were on the other end of it. While under surveillance, Denise was seen at a Western Union. Fingerprints and subpoenas for money transferred showed either she or Leo Cisneros wired over $14,000 to Robert Gordon between August 1993 and February 1994. Denise and Leo made the payments because they had hired the two defendants to kill Lewis. They had two possible motives, right? The life insurance money and the custody bond. And those are two very big motives that we see crop up in a lot of cases.
38:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, like you said, these are two strong motives. And then if you kind of add in the fact that Leo thought Denise was being abused too, you know, that's got a little bit of motive there also.
38:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't think law enforcement or prosecutors are short on motive, right? They got plenty of different angles for motive. The prosecution described how Gordon and McDonald bound Lewis's arms and legs with a vacuum cleaner cord and the belt of his coat. They beat him and wrapped his head in a towel and then drowned him in his bathtub. Beforehand, Gordon and Susan Short killed time by tossing a ball outside while waiting for Lewis to come home. They left a bloody sweatshirt and sneakers at a motel in Tampa. Lewis's blood was found on the sweatshirt as well as fibers from his apartment's carpet,
39:27 Speaker 00 fibers from the coat belt used to tie him up, and McDonald's hairs.
39:33 Speaker 01 You know, when you say what you just said about them tossing the ball outside, I had this visual of like a really bad hitman movie, you know, where they're, they're outside of the hotel, whatever, just, you know, tossing the ball back and forth, bouncing and whatever. And they're like, oh, hey, he's pulling in. Let's go do what we gotta do.
39:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, almost like a C-grade movie or something that.
39:59 Speaker 00 Go straight to DVD or straight to streaming. McDonald's lawyer argued that the fiber and hair evidence were not a direct match, only similar. He also suggested the sweatshirt was contaminated and noted that Leo, who was still missing, was hiding in the bathroom when the police went to Denise's house on the day of the murder. Gordon's lawyer presented an alibi defense claiming Gordon was in Miami at the time of the murder. Louis's fiance Patricia Danina testified that he didn't want Denise to take their daughter to Jamaica and she and Louis planned to seek custody after they got married.
40:43 Speaker 01 I don't think anybody wants their kids to be taken to another country.
40:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, maybe he thought she wouldn't bring her back.
40:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:53 Speaker 00 But then there's also this revelation that Patricia and Louis planned to seek, you know, custody of the daughter after they got married. Well, if Denise knew about that, I mean, I think you're just kind of delving further into the mode.
41:14 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
41:16 Speaker 00 Officers described how they began surveilling Denise the day after the murder. On January 27, 1994, detectives watched Denise wire at least $5,200 as payment for the murder. During cross-examination, Detective Cinder Cummings was asked whether the Western Union workers who carried out 18 wire transactions described the customer as a man or a woman. Cummings said they described a man for about half of the transactions and their description probably matched Leo's scenario. Carol Kason testified that Merrill McDonald,
41:58 Speaker 00 whom she was in love with, asked her to pick up two Western Union money transfers in January and February of 1994. The money was sent by Jennifer Lee, an alias used by Denise.
42:15 Speaker 01 I mean, just with that, right? I mean, you're shown intent to deceive, right?
42:21 Speaker 00 Or to facilitate this murder?
42:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'm going back to these Western Union workers saying, well, we think it was, you know, half the time a male, half the time a female. We already know Leo's fingerprints were found on some of these transfers. It's hard not to believe that the other half would have been done by Denise. Carol testified that Gordon used McDonald's cell phone. Records show the phone was purchased by Denise in December 1993 and was used to call Carol's house 82 times. I mean, these people are talking, Gibbs, a lot.
43:05 Speaker 01 They are.
43:07 Speaker 00 And maybe people listening are like, yeah, I talk on the phone a lot. I make a lot of calls. I do not. So this is kind of blowing me away.
43:16 Speaker 01 Well, we said it before, right? What do you talk about so often?
43:20 Speaker 00 Like, the weather, what's been going on? No, to me, it sounds like you're talking about the plan.
43:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:29 Speaker 00 And that's the reason for the need to speak so often is because, you know, things are coming up. Questions have to be answered. Things have to be ironed out.
43:39 Speaker 01 Make sure everything's going smooth.
43:41 Speaker 00 Everybody has to be on the same page. In late January 1994, Carol went to the racetrack with McDonald. Gordon was there with a woman matching Susan Shore's description. A few weeks later, Carol changed her phone number because she received two collect calls from a man named Leo in Jamaica. According to Carol, per the Tampa Tribune, he said he was angry and he was saying he didn't want to be in the middle of this. I couldn't understand it.
44:12 Speaker 01 Cold feet.
44:14 Speaker 00 Maybe. I know personally, I wouldn't be accepting any collect calls from Jamaica or any country, or really any collect calls, period. I wouldn't accept any from the US either, but.
44:28 Speaker 01 Well, you didn't accept mine until I finally, that's why I had to get the unlimited package, you know, back in the day when we first started, you know, you had to pay for phone calls. So I would always try to call you.
44:40 Speaker 00 Like per, per call, per minute type deal?
44:43 Speaker 01 Yeah. So I call you collect and you would not accept, even when I worked for you back in the day, you know, I think you just didn't want me to call in sick, but I would try, you know?
44:54 Speaker 00 No, I just, I just wanted you to stop being such a cheap ass. You had money. You can pay for your own calls.
45:03 Speaker 01 I mean, think about what I did here.
45:05 Speaker 00 And that continues to this day.
45:07 Speaker 01 Think about what I did here with this new studio.
45:10 Speaker 00 You paid for none of it.
45:14 Speaker 00 And you did none of the work.
45:16 Speaker 01 But it looks good, man.
45:18 Speaker 00 The prosecution alleged that the defendants made several test runs before committing the murder. Three witnesses would testify that they accompanied the men to Tampa and St. Petersburg three times.
45:33 Speaker 00 Susan Shore testified that in the fall of 1993, she was unemployed, broke, living with friends and trying to make money on horse betting. She met Robert Gordon and Merrill McDonald at the racetrack and they asked her to drive them from Miami to Tampa to get a document from a friend.
45:52 Speaker 01 You know, I'm just going to say, if you're trying to make a living on the horses, it's typically not the best way to go.
46:00 Speaker 00 No, I wouldn't think so, especially when you're, you're already unemployed, broke.
46:07 Speaker 00 You know, kind of laying it all out on the horses does not seem like the way to turn things around.
46:13 Speaker 01 No, I mean, maybe you get lucky and find out that, you know, the horse, you know, is a mutter and his mom was a mutter, but you know, it's a rainy day, you might come out okay.
46:25 Speaker 00 His mutter was a mutter, but his father was a mutter?
46:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:28 Speaker 00 Susan recalled that after her arrest, she said she would testify against the men that put me in this terrible, terrible ordeal. And I don't know how she couldn't. She's trying to save her own hide.
46:43 Speaker 01 Of course.
46:44 Speaker 00 She testified that she drove the men from Miami to Tampa. On January 24th, 1994, she said, I asked how much they would pay me and they said they would set me straight. After spending the night in a motel, she drove them to the apartment complex. They said they were going to see a friend. McDonald said he was going jogging and she and Gordon talked, walked around a lake and threw a baseball. 30 minutes later, Gordon saw his friend arrive and told her to wait in the car. Gordon approached Lewis, talked to him and followed him to a stairwell. She didn't see McDonald, but did see a shadow in the stairwell.
47:27 Speaker 00 Gordon returned to the car 20 minutes later, followed by McDonald about 10 minutes later. She didn't see any blood on them and it didn't seem like they had exerted themselves. She didn't suspect anything until they went to a day's end to change clothes and Leo Sisneros arrived and talked to the men. He left and brought back a woman she later learned was Denise Davidson. She could sense the tension and became nervous.
47:57 Speaker 01 I'm sure there was a lot of tension.
47:59 Speaker 00 Uh, yeah, I'm sure there was too. I mean, I think that Susan is very interesting from the standpoint that, you know, if what she's saying is correct, she had no idea what was going to happen. She was just broke and someone offered her money to drive them.
48:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:21 Speaker 00 Now, we don't know if that's a hundred percent correct. You're, we already said that, you know, prosecutors said they didn't have any evidence to refute her claim. In closing arguments, both defense attorneys claimed Leo Sisneros set the defendants up and carried out the murder himself. On June 15th, 1995, Robert Gordon and Merrill McDonald were found guilty of first degree murder. The following day, the jury recommended the death penalty. And then Denise's trial started on September 6th, 1995. The prosecution emphasized that Denise was a principal in the crime and she and her boyfriend hired the two killers,
49:06 Speaker 00 which would be proven through phone records and money transfers.
49:11 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, they had that pretty solid evidence there.
49:13 Speaker 00 They did. They did. They claimed that Denise wanted to end the custody battle over their daughter and stood to collect up to half a million dollars in insurance benefits. Her defense told the jury, this cast of characters took advantage of Denise Davidson, being blind and in love. The defense noted that Louis was paying Denise's mortgage, household expenses, a monthly allowance of $1,300, and bought her a $30,000 car. She didn't know about the insurance and it was a typical divorce. Her attorney added, as
49:53 Speaker 00 quoted by the Tampa Tribune, Louis Davidson was worth more money alive to Denise than anything else.
50:02 Speaker 01 Well, they have to put up some type of defense, right?
50:05 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I do think a lot of the time you hear this, you know, the person was worth more alive than dead, right? Basically saying, why would this person want their spouse killed? Because they would be worse off financially. But to me, Gibbs, that's not the case here. You know, if there really was, you know, almost a half a million dollars in insurance benefits, that's a lot of money. I get it. He was paying her mortgage. There was about, you know, a $1,300 a month
50:43 Speaker 00 payment, paying some household expenses. But, you know, that compared to half a million dollars, it's hard to make that argument.
50:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is.
50:54 Speaker 00 Plus, he'd already bought her the $30,000 car, so she already had that.
50:58 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
50:59 Speaker 00 Denise met Leo when she went to Jamaica during the separation. He was charming, and he took advantage of her by scheming behind her back and using her money to hire the hitman. And again, this is all the defense, right?
51:15 Speaker 01 Right, right.
51:16 Speaker 00 Detective Michael Solona testified that Denise lied repeatedly when she was questioned after the murder. She was interviewed three times. On January 27th, she said Leo was in Jamaica on the day of the murder. She later admitted he was in her home. And we talked about it, right? It was thought that he was hiding in a bathroom while police talked to her. When questioned on February 15th, Denise said she didn't know about any insurance policies Louis had, despite the fact that an insurance agent spoke to her the day before. She denied ever hearing of Robert Gordon when questioned almost a month after the murder,
52:00 Speaker 00 but money transfers proved otherwise. When confronted with the evidence, Denise said the money was for car parts and a truck Leo was buying. Later, she said the money was being used to buy land in Jamaica. You know, when your statements are inconsistent, it's always going to be a problem for you. It is. And to me, what's an even bigger problem is when your statements are proven to be false. And then you later have to come up with different statements. Yeah. Inconsistency is one thing, but them being proven false to me is even worse. Oh, I agree with you. And you're essentially lying. Yeah.
52:44 Speaker 00 And then you're just coming up with something different because it's CYA at that point. Testifying in her own defense, Denise denied hiring Gordon and McDonald to kill Louis. She acknowledged wiring Gordon thousands of dollars and talking to McDonald. But she thought Gibbs that she was investing $10,000, which came from a civil case stemming from a dog bite she suffered into Leo's car parts and truck import business. So it's like we always talk about, right? You've got to come up with a story that at least in some way lines up with the evidence against you. Now, does it?
53:27 Speaker 00 I, I'm, it's tough. It's tough to buy. Yeah, it's not really believable to me, but. She was asked why she did everything Leo told her and responded that if she questioned him, he told her to trust him and not to worry. The prosecutor confronted Denise with a recording of herself saying, you'll be sorry, Denise, in a sinister voice. She made the call from her workplace to her home and she was accused of trying to divert police attention. Now Denise wouldn't confirm the voice was hers and claimed she didn't remember the call. She claimed two men were following her and she feared she was being targeted
54:10 Speaker 00 by a posse because she later suspected Leo, Gordon and McDonald were involved in drugs. The old drug posse. But that's like something you'd see in a, in a movie, right? You're calling yourself at home, leaving a threatening voicemail, let's say, disguising your voice, but the police know it's you, but you're saying, no, that's not me. Didn't do that. And they're like, no, actually we can tell it's you. She denied ever seeing Susan Shore come into her workplace with McDonald's the day before the murder as Susan had testified. She admitted to going with Leo to a motel in Tampa where
54:54 Speaker 00 the hitmen and Susan were staying, but it was only to use the bathroom because she was suffering from morning sickness due to her pregnancy.
55:04 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, she was pregnant.
55:06 Speaker 00 And morning sickness is rough.
55:09 Speaker 01 But that's just a small piece of all this puzzle.
55:12 Speaker 00 It is, but that still doesn't make sense to me. Okay, you have to use the restroom. I understand that, but you are solving that problem by going to a motel where the hitmen are staying?
55:26 Speaker 01 I mean, you could stop anywhere.
55:28 Speaker 00 You could stop at a McDonald's, at a gas station, one of those, uh, those Buc-Ee's or Pilates. Sometimes they have really nice gas, uh, restrooms.
55:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, I know. I stop off at Love's. They have nice bathrooms.
55:43 Speaker 00 Why do you say it like that?
55:44 Speaker 01 Cause that's how you say it.
55:45 Speaker 00 Love's.
55:46 Speaker 01 That's how you say it, man.
55:47 Speaker 00 Okay.
55:47 Speaker 01 Love's.
55:49 Speaker 00 It, it just seems strange, right? To drive to a motel with the express purpose of going to the bathroom and it just so happens it's a motel where the hitmen are staying. But again, right? It's that point of you have to explain why you're there.
56:07 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, you're trying to do your best that you can to make sense of every movement you made.
56:13 Speaker 00 On September 16th, Denise was found guilty of first degree murder. On the 25th, the jury sentenced her to life in prison with a mandatory 25 years. Denise said in a prepared statement, "I'm not a murderer. I will forever claim my innocence. To be found guilty of first degree murder is very unfair." You know how few murderers say that, "Yeah, this was pretty fair. You got me."
56:42 Speaker 01 None.
56:43 Speaker 00 "You got me. I have to agree with everything."
56:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:47 Speaker 00 On September 28th, Susan Shore pleaded no contest to accessory after the fact and was sentenced to three years of probation. However, her sentence would end once she left the United States. Susan was originally from England. She was set to leave the U.S. on September 30th.
57:07 Speaker 00 And, you know, I think I would leave too. You know, three years probation, it's not the best thing in the world. But it's not the end of the world either.
57:17 Speaker 01 Absolutely not. I mean, who hasn't been on probation at least once in their life?
57:22 Speaker 00 I am now raising my hand because I have not been. I also have never had to wear an ankle monitor. But, you know, if her story is really true and she was just, you know, driving for money. Okay, I get it. You know, it's, it's, it's tough to really blame her all that much. And then there's the fact that, you know, she could just go back to England in a couple of days. And basically she's out from under all of it.
57:54 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
57:55 Speaker 00 As of 2026, Denise Davidson is still incarcerated in Florida. Robert Gordon and Merrill McDonald remain on Florida's death row. According to a 2021 article by Oxygen, Leo Sisneros whereabouts are still unknown. There is still a warrant out for his arrest, charging him with first degree murder. And, you know, you have to think, Gibbs, he's most likely somewhere, if not in Jamaica. He's, he's definitely probably in a country far away from the US.
58:31 Speaker 01 I would think so.
58:32 Speaker 00 And that's probably making it tougher to catch him. He might even be in a country with, you know, no extradition treaty. If he was smart, that's where he'd be. But as we wrap this one up, you know, again, how many cases come down to greed? And or custody battle, especially when you're talking about a spouse murdering or paying to murder their spouse? And I would say quite a few of them.
59:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:06 Speaker 00 Because money and custody are two big time motivations.
59:14 Speaker 01 It really is.
59:16 Speaker 00 I guess with this one, you know, everything's pretty neatly wrapped up, tied up with a bow, with the exception of Leo Sisneros. Because I don't think there's any doubt, he played a big time role, right? You know, he was the connection to the people who ultimately killed Lewis. It might've been at the behest of Denise and most likely was. He also is thought to have made some or maybe half of the Western Union payments. So there's no doubt that he's got a lot of culpability here.
59:57 Speaker 00 But until they can find this guy, he's going to be out there living his life. Now, it might not be a great one. He might, you know, he's on the run. So he can't be as, maybe as free as he would like to be.
1:00:11 Speaker 01 And think, you know, she was pregnant with his baby. So I don't know whatever happened there, but I'm assuming she had, you know, the birth and that baby is out there without their dad, without their mom really in their life. And then you have the daughter that has no mom or dad because obviously the dad was murdered and the mom is sitting in prison.
1:00:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it just shows you how many lives are wrecked by these stupid decisions. And I don't know what other word to use. I mean, this is just plain stupid, in my opinion.
1:00:52 Speaker 01 Of course, yeah. I mean, it's a tragedy that didn't need to happen. And now all these individuals have to pay the ultimate price.
1:01:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely. But that's it for our episode on the murder of Dr. Louis Davidson. We got a voicemail, Gibbs, you want to check that out?
1:01:12 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:01:13 Speaker 02 Hey, Mike and Gibby, this is Blake from Athens, Georgia. I was just calling because I had a question. I, uh, when I first heard about the Idaho four killings about three years ago, I was like, oh, man, I would love to hear a podcast episode about that, but I'm sure that'll get, you know, tacked on to the bottom of y'alls. Laundry list of things, but to my surprise, a couple of weeks ago, you actually did an episode on that. So I just had a question. How do you choose which episodes to do? And uh, is it metric based? Like you trying to get the most traction possible? Like the most people coming to listen to the podcast, or if it's just whatever you guys feel like doing in the moment and it's just all, all personal. So just let me know and thanks.
1:01:56 Speaker 02 And as always, uh, keep your own time ticking. Thanks. Bye.
1:02:00 Speaker 01 Hey Blake, we have a wheel that we spin and uh, whatever it lands on is what we do.
1:02:06 Speaker 00 That is absolutely 100% not correct, but it is a good question, you know, and I appreciate the voicemail. I would say this Gibbs, you know, we do try to do a mix of more well-known cases and lesser known cases. It's really, it's always about, you know, what do people want to hear?
1:02:27 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:02:28 Speaker 00 But that's not the same for everyone, right? Some people only want to hear about the really big ones. Some people are more fascinated by the ones they've never heard about at all. So we just, we just try to do a mix and part of that is, you know, what kind of jumps out to us as super interesting? What has like components that are fascinating?
1:02:51 Speaker 01 And sometimes people want to hear the most recent one, but we gotta be a little careful jumping right into something that just occurred because we want to wait to make sure all the facts.
1:03:02 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:03:03 Speaker 01 Come out.
1:03:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, that, that's true. And that's why we waited so long, you know, to tackle the, you know, Idaho murders. But uh, yeah, I think that's my answer.
1:03:15 Speaker 01 It's a good answer.
1:03:16 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So from Mike.
1:03:20 Speaker 01 And Gabby.
1:03:21 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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